1 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: From the Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey. 2 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: It's Thursday, October tenth. The Powerful Education Union wants members 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: to boycott teaching reforms, including phonics and explicit instruction on 4 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:22,760 Speaker 1: topics like maths and reading. That's because it says the 5 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: federal government's sixteen billion dollar funding offer to the States 6 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: isn't enough. Former Labor Senator Fatima Payman, who left the 7 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: party after objecting to its stance on Gaza, has launched 8 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 1: her own party, Australia's Voice. It has no policies yet, 9 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 1: but some Indigenous leaders are objecting to her use of 10 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 1: the word voice as they mark the anniversary of the 11 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: Voice to Parliament referendum defeat. Judges should be trauma informed 12 00:00:56,200 --> 00:01:00,040 Speaker 1: when dealing with Indigenous and African offenders and taken to 13 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:04,679 Speaker 1: account the effects of colonialism, slavery and racism. That's just 14 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: part of a new guidebook to help judges become more 15 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: like therapists. It's been distributed to judicial officers today. What 16 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:27,479 Speaker 1: therapeutic jurisprudence is all about. Congratulations, you've been appointed a judge. Now, 17 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: which kind of judge are you going to be? 18 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 2: The hanging judge, your persistent dedication to a life of 19 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 2: chrime is an abomination before God and Man, and therefore 20 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 2: sentence you to hang by the neck until you're dead. 21 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 2: And may the Lord have mercy on your soul. 22 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: The bring your toothbrush, judge. 23 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 3: The word remorse a deep regret coming from a sense 24 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 3: of guilt for past wrongs. 25 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: That's not you, the judge, Judy, just a second. 26 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 4: I ask questions, You answer the questions. 27 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: Do you understand that amar Australian judges have a new option, 28 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: the therapy judge Therapeutic Jurisprudence or TJ. According to a 29 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: new guide distributed to judges published by the New South 30 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: Wales Judicial Commission. This is what that means. 31 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 4: TJ emphasizes processes that encourage self determination for offenders to 32 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:29,079 Speaker 4: avoid increasing resistance and potential resentment of the judicial process. 33 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 4: Judicial officers are expected to have a positive impact on 34 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 4: the people appearing before them and their communities, with the 35 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 4: court as a possible facilitator of healing. 36 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 3: So it was written by a researcher. She's a lawyer 37 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 3: and a psychologist. Her name is Ronda Waterworth and it 38 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:48,799 Speaker 3: was backed by the New South Wales Judicial watchdog, the 39 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,359 Speaker 3: Judicial Commission, and further endorsed by the Australasian Institute of 40 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 3: Judicial Administration, which is the peak judges body in Australia. 41 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 1: Ellie Dudley is the Australian's Legal affairs correspond and she's 42 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: breaking this story today. The guide explicitly states its techniques 43 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: are not designed for use in more serious criminal matters 44 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: and are not designed to excuse offender behavior nor argue 45 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: for judicial leniency. 46 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 4: Therapeutic jurisprudence and solution focused judging did not promote leniency. Indeed, 47 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 4: offenders being held to account and receiving a just outcome, 48 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 4: including imprisonment when warranted, is therapeutic in itself because it 49 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 4: tells offenders that actions have consequences. 50 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: In fact, the Guide suggests sending someone to jail can 51 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: actually be useful. 52 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 4: A sentence for incarceration can be used to stabilize a 53 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 4: person's life, their mental state, to give a period of 54 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 4: space and time to reorganize their entourage, and to give 55 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 4: the defendant time to obtain support in a stable environment. 56 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: One of the newer ideas coming through the law is 57 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: that judges are themselves subject to wars. What's called vicarious trauma. 58 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: That is distress and upset caused by being exposed to 59 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: the details of offending and suffering. That, as well as 60 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: the obvious stress of such big jobs, can lead to 61 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: shortness of temper. Judges are, of course human, but sadly 62 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 1: Australian courts are not televised, so we rarely get to 63 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 1: share with you all the little moments of snappy, cranky 64 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 1: judges we see from the press benchers. There are some exceptions, 65 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: like this twenty twenty SmackDown by Victorian judge Elizabeth Gainer. 66 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 3: Let me tell you, gentlemen, what this court has seen 67 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 3: time after time with young men like you. 68 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 4: You get out of jail. 69 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 3: And you're in the big wide world. You've never had 70 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 3: a job, never had a stable relationship, no relationships with 71 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 3: the children that you have. You'll end up drug rattled, 72 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 3: lonely old men. 73 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: American courts, however, are a cornucopia of judges losing it 74 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: on TV. I agree with the family. I hope you 75 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 1: die in prison as well. 76 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 3: Know if this was adapt to Patty State, you begin 77 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 3: to chair. 78 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 1: This court is so sick and tired of seeing adult 79 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: room and abused children. There's a big rebalancing happening across 80 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 1: the law, isn't there in the way that judges are considered. 81 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: Now every few months I read a report about a 82 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: senior judge talking to other judges about how to manage 83 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: the workload, to manage the stress, and acknowledgment that it's 84 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: pretty tough work at times. 85 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 3: The New South Wales Judicial Commission released a report recently 86 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 3: showing that an overwhelming amount of judges need to be 87 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 3: tested for PTSD because the work that they're dealing with 88 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 3: every single day is so incredibly traumatic. And what we 89 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:49,039 Speaker 3: see all through this report is an acknowledgment that the 90 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 3: things that go on in court are incredibly traumatic, and 91 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 3: also the fact that offenders all victims as well, bring 92 00:05:55,800 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 3: really complex backgrounds and perhaps intergenerational trauma of vicarious trauma 93 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 3: or whatever it is to court and they need to 94 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 3: be treated in certain ways. 95 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: That's the very serious and earnest part of this report. 96 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 1: It is also pretty funny. 97 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 4: There are parts of it that seem to be a 98 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 4: little bit peculiar. 99 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: Tell me about the butterfly technique. 100 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 3: So the butterfly technique is something that is included in 101 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 3: the report with graphics just in case you don't understand 102 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 3: it fully where an offender, perhaps if they're experiencing stress 103 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 3: at the time, crosses their arms across their chest and 104 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 3: pats on their shoulders. There's also parts of the report 105 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 3: that talk about the wellbeing of judges, so things like 106 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 3: going for long walks, exercising more, having special herbal teas, 107 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 3: that sort of thing in order to calm themselves down 108 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 3: or to help resolve any vicarious trauma that they may 109 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 3: experience based off of their experience in the courtroom. 110 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a suggestion that judges might like an alkaline 111 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: drink such as apple side of vinegar we're mixed with 112 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: water to make themselves feel better, essential oils to help 113 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: with alertness, calming music in the waiting room, and having 114 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: a fiddle toy available for those speaking. This is the 115 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 1: point where this tips over into being ridiculous, isn't it. 116 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 3: I couldn't possibly say, but what I will say is 117 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 3: that I have not yet seen any judges implement these 118 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 3: sort of techniques in court, you know, from your Justice 119 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 3: Michael Lees to your Chief Justice Stephen Gegler, and it 120 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 3: would be very interesting if they did. In the middle 121 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 3: of a chorum. It's bringing these therapeutic techniques into the courtroom, 122 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 3: which does seem to be an incredibly twenty twenty four 123 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,559 Speaker 3: attitude and not something we would have seen a decade ago. 124 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: Indigenous Australians are over represented in the justice system and 125 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: in prisons, of course, and every judge in Australia who 126 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: handles criminal matters is trained in dealing with Indigenous people 127 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: in their particular sensitivities. The report suggests, though, that this 128 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: is not just about acknowledging that an offender before the 129 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: court might have had a difficult childhood, might have substance 130 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: abuse problems, might be the victim of violence themselves, but 131 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: it's also going back to what their family and in 132 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: fact their entire culture might have. 133 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 3: Experienced, particularly when it comes to Aboriginal defendants. There's a 134 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 3: massive chunk of the report dedicated to the Stolen Generation 135 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 3: when the impact that could have on Indigenous defendants. I 136 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 3: also talks about settling colonialism and the impact that could 137 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 3: have Indigenous defendants and the way that has been passed 138 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 3: down from generation to generation amongst Aboriginal communities. 139 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: Coming up, Why Islam is singled out as a helpful 140 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: tool for judges. Ellie Dudley's coverage of legal affairs is unrivaled. 141 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: If you're a judge or a lawyer, you should be 142 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 1: subscribing to The Australian for her exclusives and all our 143 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: analysis and commentary on matters of the law. Check us 144 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: out at the Australian dot com dot au. When sentencing 145 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: Muslim offenders, the guide says judges should be mindful of 146 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 1: intergenerational trauma experienced by the family members of refugees who 147 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: fled persecution experienced torture. But the report says there are 148 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 1: upsides too. 149 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 4: Muslim culture provides several elements that can strongly enhance resiliency 150 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 4: in young offenders, offering a framework that promotes psychological well being, 151 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 4: moral development and social support. 152 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: There's a broad reference to Asian defendants. What does it 153 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: say about them? 154 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,679 Speaker 3: It talks about Asian shame, So this idea that Asian 155 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 3: defendants could will heavily fear embarrassment and that could impact 156 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 3: the way that they appear in court. It says that 157 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 3: this may make it difficult for an offender to participate 158 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 3: fully because they could become emotionally overwhelmed due to this embarrassment. 159 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: In terms of African defendants, Elie there's of course an 160 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: acknowledgment that Africa is a pretty big place and there 161 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: are a huge number of different, very different cultures from 162 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: that continent, some of whom have made their way to 163 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 1: Australia in the form of local communities. Why should judges, 164 00:09:55,840 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: according to this report, have a particular sensitivity around Africa defendants. 165 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 3: It goes back to that thing that we're talking about 166 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 3: intergenerational trauma. So it makes reference to the slave trade 167 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 3: when the impact that the slave trade could have on 168 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 3: African defendants, it talks about that being a massive potential sensitivity, 169 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 3: and similarly, the ongoing impacts of colonization could have an 170 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 3: impact on African defendants. But at the same time, when 171 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 3: they've got a sensitivity, they also have a strength, so 172 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 3: they say that strong family bonds within African communities could 173 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 3: act as a potential strength for an African defendant. 174 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: You're in court rooms with judges all the time, it's 175 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: easy to make jokes about the kind of woke instruction 176 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: that they're getting from the Juditial Commission, for example, in 177 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: this instance, it's your sense that by and large they 178 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: are sensible, sober decision makers, or do you see judges 179 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: straying away from black letter law. 180 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 3: I think it's divided. So I think that while you 181 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 3: would have some judges who are straying into judicial activism 182 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 3: and more interested in quite progressive of the law, I 183 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:02,559 Speaker 3: think that you have a very strong basi of a 184 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 3: judiciary that is very keen on not straying and ultimately 185 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 3: achieving justice and achieving that in a very straight and 186 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 3: narrow way. 187 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: Ellie Dudley is The Australian's Legal affairs correspondent. Anthony Albanezi 188 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: will meet Chinese Premier Lie Chung at the Asian Summit 189 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: in Vientian Today. The PM says he'll be working on 190 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: stabilizing relations with China amid boiling tensions over the South 191 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 1: China Sea. You can read all a live reporting from 192 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: Asian Today at the Australian dot com dot a U