1
00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:04,040
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the show. This is better than yesterday.

2
00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:06,720
Speaker 2: Useful tools and useful conversations to help make you all.

3
00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:09,000
Speaker 1: Day today better than yesterday.

4
00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:12,360
Speaker 3: Every week since twenty thirteen. My name's Oosha Ginsburg. I

5
00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:16,480
Speaker 3: am a podcaster, I'm an author. I'm a recovering television host.

6
00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,720
Speaker 3: I'm a dad. I'm a stepdad. I am revisiting the

7
00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:23,160
Speaker 3: lap swimming of my youth as I try to make

8
00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,400
Speaker 3: the lap time cut off for my bronze medallion course,

9
00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:27,920
Speaker 3: which is only a couple of weeks away.

10
00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:29,760
Speaker 2: So am I'm in the pool three times a week.

11
00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:31,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing. I'm a guy that swims laves now

12
00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,919
Speaker 1: who knew? And I'm glad you're here. Thanks for being

13
00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,280
Speaker 1: a part of it. It's summertime. We're taking a break.

14
00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:38,120
Speaker 1: You're taking a break.

15
00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:39,960
Speaker 3: And just because we're taking a break doesn't mean I

16
00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:42,920
Speaker 3: want to leave you without an episode. Oh No, we're

17
00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:45,279
Speaker 3: taking the best and most well received episodes we've had

18
00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:46,800
Speaker 3: all year, and we're going to give them another run.

19
00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:51,880
Speaker 3: And today is an absolute brilliant listen from Jess McGuire.

20
00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:53,479
Speaker 3: Let me ask you this. Let's say you and I

21
00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:55,320
Speaker 3: are having an argument, right and I mean nless. I

22
00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:57,440
Speaker 3: We're really gone for it. We're raising our voices, our

23
00:00:57,440 --> 00:00:59,040
Speaker 3: hands are flying around it, and in the middle of it,

24
00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:00,560
Speaker 3: I say to you, calm down.

25
00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,560
Speaker 2: Is that going to work in a highly emotional state?

26
00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:09,040
Speaker 3: Has that tactic ever been effective on you?

27
00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:10,280
Speaker 2: No, it hasn't, has it.

28
00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,480
Speaker 3: There are ways to calm down, but that is not

29
00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:18,240
Speaker 3: one of them. But what is interesting is that our

30
00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,720
Speaker 3: response to pain, physical pain, it's kind of similar. And

31
00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:25,319
Speaker 3: it's something that my guest today, the physiotherapist and the

32
00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:29,880
Speaker 3: author Jessica Maguire, spent an entire career focusing on. Today,

33
00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:34,040
Speaker 3: we explore the complex relationship between pain, the nervous system,

34
00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,600
Speaker 3: and emotional regulation. Jessica has some brilliant insights on how

35
00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:41,399
Speaker 3: our body's process pain and some really practical, useful techniques

36
00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,880
Speaker 3: for regulating your nervous system. Her book excellent Books well

37
00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,080
Speaker 3: worth read. The book is called The Nervous System Reset.

38
00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,040
Speaker 3: I hope you get a lot out of this. I did,

39
00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,160
Speaker 3: and I made an entire documentary about pain. Enjoying this

40
00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:57,520
Speaker 3: conversation with Jessica Maguire. It's kind of interesting to cross

41
00:01:57,560 --> 00:01:59,800
Speaker 3: paths with you today because a lot of the stuff

42
00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:03,760
Speaker 3: that you write about talk about is stuff that I

43
00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:08,440
Speaker 3: have gone through, very similar principles that I've gone through

44
00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:12,520
Speaker 3: with my mental health and stuff that I'm now going

45
00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,640
Speaker 3: through with movement patterns. And I find the parallels to

46
00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:22,040
Speaker 3: be incredibly interesting. But let's get to let's get to

47
00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,240
Speaker 3: how you got to be someone who could do such

48
00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:26,360
Speaker 3: a thing and.

49
00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,120
Speaker 2: Write a book called The Nervous System Reset. What was

50
00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:32,760
Speaker 2: it that made you want to go? You know what, physio,

51
00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:33,959
Speaker 2: That's it, That's what I want.

52
00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:41,519
Speaker 4: So I had always been interested in looking at you know,

53
00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:44,400
Speaker 4: I guess from a bit of an athletic point of view,

54
00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,040
Speaker 4: movement like I was always interested in that fairly kinesthetic

55
00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:49,520
Speaker 4: in that.

56
00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,080
Speaker 3: Way, just for people who don't like I speak in

57
00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,480
Speaker 3: this language now because I've got to communicate with people

58
00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:56,960
Speaker 3: like you all the time. I know way too much

59
00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:01,160
Speaker 3: about anatomy, but for folks kinesthetic for people that are

60
00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:02,320
Speaker 3: familiar with that workplace.

61
00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:07,079
Speaker 4: So that's really our awareness of movements. And so I

62
00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:11,040
Speaker 4: was always interested in the senses and the sensory experience.

63
00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,760
Speaker 4: And then physio is a great fit in the way

64
00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,280
Speaker 4: that I thought I would just go in and treat

65
00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:21,280
Speaker 4: sporting injuries, you know, But what I soon discovered is

66
00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,560
Speaker 4: that a third of physio is that the other third

67
00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,960
Speaker 4: is looking at the chest and the lungs, and then

68
00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,760
Speaker 4: the other third of that is really neurology, so the brain,

69
00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:35,960
Speaker 4: how the spinal cord and the brain communicate, you know,

70
00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:41,320
Speaker 4: working with stroke patients and this amazing scene called neuroplasticity,

71
00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,400
Speaker 4: how the brain and nervous system can change. But before that,

72
00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,360
Speaker 4: I was actually I did a degree before physio that

73
00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,920
Speaker 4: was really looking at a lot of heart rate variability,

74
00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:54,240
Speaker 4: which without knowing it, I was studying the vagus nerve

75
00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:56,960
Speaker 4: and a lot looking at the gut too. So I

76
00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:00,400
Speaker 4: guess I came from a pretty broad lend of how

77
00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:02,880
Speaker 4: I looked at things. Even as a physio, I was

78
00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:04,600
Speaker 4: still looking quite wide with.

79
00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,400
Speaker 2: That much science. How they how did you even get

80
00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:08,440
Speaker 2: past Bangalore?

81
00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:08,680
Speaker 3: Like?

82
00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,800
Speaker 2: How are you even allowed into the Northern rivers?

83
00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:17,640
Speaker 4: I know, right, It's it's interesting. I do like to

84
00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:21,000
Speaker 4: take in a lot of information, but I think what

85
00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,080
Speaker 4: I like to do is taking a lot and then

86
00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:25,960
Speaker 4: find how can I make this as simple, clear and

87
00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:30,640
Speaker 4: actionable as possible for patients? So you know, and then

88
00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,080
Speaker 4: I had my own experiences with this work, with the

89
00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,520
Speaker 4: work around the nervous system too, So it was it

90
00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,800
Speaker 4: was great to come in with a deep understanding of

91
00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:43,320
Speaker 4: it and to know how much it can help relieve suffering.

92
00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:45,479
Speaker 3: Part of people ask me all day, like why do

93
00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:47,839
Speaker 3: you want to make this documentary about pain?

94
00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:50,280
Speaker 2: And a large for me, a large part of it was.

95
00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:55,000
Speaker 3: Like, well, in my own seeking of relief for things,

96
00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:59,320
Speaker 3: I started to learn about what my pain system does

97
00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:01,479
Speaker 3: and what can happen to it when it's just been

98
00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:03,000
Speaker 3: on for six months.

99
00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:05,960
Speaker 2: I was like, how do people how do more people

100
00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:06,760
Speaker 2: not know about this?

101
00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,320
Speaker 4: I know? Right? And and then it's like the way

102
00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,960
Speaker 4: that it's been relayed for people who have chronic but

103
00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,400
Speaker 4: persistent pain has really been quite poor. And so then

104
00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,240
Speaker 4: we've got this message of like I've got an injury,

105
00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,200
Speaker 4: it has to be like tissue damage or it's all

106
00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,640
Speaker 4: in your head, you know. So there's not like this

107
00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:27,560
Speaker 4: like really nice way to educate something that's so complex.

108
00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:29,719
Speaker 4: I feel like we haven't done a good job of

109
00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:31,080
Speaker 4: it as health professionals.

110
00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,320
Speaker 3: How do you as a physio approach someone who is

111
00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,080
Speaker 3: they're coming to you for help. I don't know, they

112
00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,400
Speaker 3: can't pick up their kids. Let's say, for example, I've

113
00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:40,840
Speaker 3: got a busted shoulder. I don't want to be able

114
00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:42,800
Speaker 3: to pick up my kids, but I can't. I can't

115
00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:47,920
Speaker 3: actually lift them. You examine the joint and go, actually,

116
00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:54,040
Speaker 3: there's nothing that I can see or feel that is wrong.

117
00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:56,960
Speaker 2: But because the accent of injury.

118
00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,480
Speaker 3: Was more than six months ago, the very movement itself

119
00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,840
Speaker 3: is causing so much tension and fear and catastrophization about

120
00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:03,599
Speaker 3: what happens if.

121
00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:05,400
Speaker 2: We do move that they're just so wound up.

122
00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,000
Speaker 3: It's like it's almost less physio and more psycho psychology

123
00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:10,799
Speaker 3: at that point. So how do you start to explain

124
00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:15,000
Speaker 3: to someone about what their own sense, the relationship to

125
00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,360
Speaker 3: that sensation does to the joint in question?

126
00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a really good question. I would start personally

127
00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:27,839
Speaker 4: looking at the in the examination processes, at the biological, psychological,

128
00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,680
Speaker 4: and social factors. So we say that pain is a

129
00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:35,360
Speaker 4: biopsychosocial event or experience, which means like, yeah, there's the

130
00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:39,239
Speaker 4: biological factors, which could be inflammation or the initial injury,

131
00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,640
Speaker 4: it could be faulty movement patterns. And then the psychological

132
00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:48,480
Speaker 4: factors that are in place are definitely like beliefs, expectations,

133
00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:53,520
Speaker 4: the language we use, and then the social is what

134
00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,840
Speaker 4: else is going on in somebody's life. So you know,

135
00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,320
Speaker 4: we might look at somebody who was really fit and

136
00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:05,520
Speaker 4: healthy and then they started to experience challenges in there

137
00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,200
Speaker 4: where they were living and the cost of living got

138
00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:12,120
Speaker 4: really high. Maybe it's impacted on their work, and those

139
00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:16,360
Speaker 4: social factors will contribute to pain. The second thing that

140
00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,920
Speaker 4: I've loved to teach people with the education component is

141
00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:28,640
Speaker 4: that pain isn't linear and pain doesn't always equal tissue damage.

142
00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:31,840
Speaker 4: So if you look at somebody who's going through an

143
00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:36,640
Speaker 4: initiation ceremony, they can have no pain. You know, they

144
00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,440
Speaker 4: can have tissue damage. They might do something that you

145
00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:43,240
Speaker 4: know damages that tissue, but you know, they say it

146
00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:47,160
Speaker 4: didn't actually hurt. There was like a different experience with that.

147
00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,640
Speaker 4: Like I love time massages, you know, I love when

148
00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:52,440
Speaker 4: they get up on my back and walk on my

149
00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,280
Speaker 4: back and it's like all that pain. But imagine if

150
00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:59,840
Speaker 4: that experience was at night time and I was walking

151
00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,880
Speaker 4: home by myself and somebody did exactly the same thing,

152
00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:08,880
Speaker 4: it would be a completely different experience. So the threat

153
00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:13,120
Speaker 4: part of this is really important, and this is where

154
00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,400
Speaker 4: it ties in with the nervous system of how do

155
00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,040
Speaker 4: we perceive that or how does and a lot of

156
00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,760
Speaker 4: that's outside of conscious awareness that we detect it as

157
00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,040
Speaker 4: a threat, and so basically we can say, well, pain

158
00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,840
Speaker 4: is actually an alarm system if you like, that is

159
00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:33,440
Speaker 4: there to notify us that something could be wrong and

160
00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,839
Speaker 4: get our attention. And that's a great thing. But when

161
00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,680
Speaker 4: when we have a persistent pain that keeps going on

162
00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:47,120
Speaker 4: and on despite the initial injury happening per se from

163
00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:52,120
Speaker 4: the start, it's most likely related to a process of

164
00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:57,280
Speaker 4: neuroplasticity where in a way, our brain, our spinal cord

165
00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:01,520
Speaker 4: and the receptors have gotten better, have turned up the

166
00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:06,839
Speaker 4: volume on pain signals to tell us faster, like yeah,

167
00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,840
Speaker 4: this is here, this is a threat. And what part

168
00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,800
Speaker 4: of our work is is basically to turn the volume

169
00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,160
Speaker 4: back down on those those signals.

170
00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:19,360
Speaker 3: It was very difficult for me to accept that some

171
00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:21,800
Speaker 3: model some of the pain that I was experiencing was

172
00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,920
Speaker 3: in my head. I mean, I watched as my doctor

173
00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:29,680
Speaker 3: and the radiologists pointed at the latual fermial contaneous nerve

174
00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,280
Speaker 3: and when it's perfectly fine, nothing wrong with it. It

175
00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:35,840
Speaker 3: took about two or three days for me to accept

176
00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,360
Speaker 3: that part of what I was feeling was being invented

177
00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,160
Speaker 3: in my head because I so wanted it to be

178
00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:42,880
Speaker 3: something else.

179
00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:44,560
Speaker 2: I so wanted it to not be me.

180
00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,160
Speaker 3: I wanted I don't want if I wanted something to

181
00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,560
Speaker 3: someone to blame it on or like a reason that

182
00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:52,640
Speaker 3: wasn't me for why I was and so much pain.

183
00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,560
Speaker 3: Yet once I did come to that acceptance, and I

184
00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,079
Speaker 3: was working with a pain CC at the time, Oh

185
00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,240
Speaker 3: there's ways that I can make this better just me.

186
00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,480
Speaker 2: I don't need a drug to do it. And now

187
00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,080
Speaker 2: now it was empowering, but that was that was like

188
00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:12,439
Speaker 2: a light year of space to make that leap.

189
00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,080
Speaker 4: Yes, it's hard, isn't it, because we're so used to

190
00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:20,360
Speaker 4: thinking my shoulder hurts, it's a shoulder problem. But we

191
00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:24,120
Speaker 4: don't have pain without our brain processing it. And I

192
00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,840
Speaker 4: think even when I was at Union studying this, I

193
00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,920
Speaker 4: was like, this is so complex and that it's like

194
00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,600
Speaker 4: against what we know. And I think that that is

195
00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:38,880
Speaker 4: a challenge for health practitioners to educate people because it's

196
00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,439
Speaker 4: a complex thing, you know, And it's not like we

197
00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,880
Speaker 4: like black and white, we like simple. We like to say,

198
00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,120
Speaker 4: you know, this is back pain. I must have a

199
00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,319
Speaker 4: slip disc. And even if you think about that right,

200
00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,439
Speaker 4: like your belief around what's going on. Say it's a

201
00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,280
Speaker 4: lower back pain and a slip disc makes it sounds

202
00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,040
Speaker 4: sound like our discs are like a bar of soaps

203
00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,520
Speaker 4: that can just go out and you know, fly out somewhere.

204
00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,640
Speaker 4: But when we look structurally at it, there's some really

205
00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,560
Speaker 4: thick ligaments in place holding those disks and they're not

206
00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,480
Speaker 4: really moving back that far. So I think as well,

207
00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:17,240
Speaker 4: that belief of the language of this is what's wrong.

208
00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,600
Speaker 4: That's the amplification of pain. And you know, we see

209
00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,319
Speaker 4: it with a placebo like we talk about the place

210
00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:29,439
Speaker 4: Ebo effect and how that changes our immune system, anxiety, sleep,

211
00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:34,840
Speaker 4: fatigue levels, pain. It's definitely hard though to say, ah,

212
00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,160
Speaker 4: there's part of this that's in my head, and I

213
00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:40,640
Speaker 4: don't think that's even I think for a lot of

214
00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:46,080
Speaker 4: people it's not always a super helpful framework if we

215
00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:48,880
Speaker 4: say this is in your head. I think it's actually

216
00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,920
Speaker 4: more helpful if we say the communication between your brain

217
00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,640
Speaker 4: and body, you know, it's more the signals. Otherwise we think, well,

218
00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,760
Speaker 4: it's just my brain has got a problem. It's really

219
00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,160
Speaker 4: you know, a lot of things around more signaling and

220
00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:05,800
Speaker 4: communication between the truth.

221
00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:08,000
Speaker 2: One of the things I learned as well.

222
00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,400
Speaker 3: Was and I mentioned it earlier with the catastrophization and

223
00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,199
Speaker 3: not only that, catastrophizing about and then in many ways.

224
00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:16,839
Speaker 2: I'm very lucky that I have the brain that I've got.

225
00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,720
Speaker 3: You know that one of my psychiatrists explained to me

226
00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:21,040
Speaker 3: that I have two time zones.

227
00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:22,719
Speaker 2: I have now and not now, and that's it.

228
00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,040
Speaker 3: And what is lucky is that I would wake up

229
00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:28,520
Speaker 3: every day and forget how much it hurt yesterday.

230
00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:30,560
Speaker 2: And then wouldn't worry about what it was going to

231
00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,000
Speaker 2: feel like today. You know, I wasn't.

232
00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:34,880
Speaker 3: I was got really lucky with that, But then I'd

233
00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:37,800
Speaker 3: forget how much it hurt the day before, like I

234
00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:39,960
Speaker 3: should really do something about this. This has been three

235
00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,280
Speaker 3: months where it feels like, you know, that was the problem. However,

236
00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,800
Speaker 3: I also learned that a care is catastrophizing. For example,

237
00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,000
Speaker 3: over a child can increase the pain of the child,

238
00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,920
Speaker 3: and that is just staggering. And so, you know, in

239
00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,040
Speaker 3: relation to the work that you do, you know, when

240
00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,840
Speaker 3: you're trying to manage caring for someone or you know,

241
00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:01,840
Speaker 3: and you're trying to you know, there's a lot going on.

242
00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,280
Speaker 3: And you mentioned the social aspect of pain and discomfort earlier.

243
00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:06,920
Speaker 2: What are some ways of.

244
00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,280
Speaker 3: Trying to stay calm and stay centered when you're trying

245
00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,120
Speaker 3: to handle hopefully not a kid in pain, but even

246
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,880
Speaker 3: just the stuff going on around your career, your house,

247
00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,040
Speaker 3: school pickup, not week big, so my god, we need

248
00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:18,600
Speaker 3: to mid the lawn.

249
00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:20,800
Speaker 2: What's that to be like? All that stuff.

250
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:25,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a good question, and I think, you know,

251
00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:29,040
Speaker 4: for a health professional, I've been really aware of the

252
00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,600
Speaker 4: language that I use with people. There were some good

253
00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:37,720
Speaker 4: research that showed the number one predictor of how much

254
00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:43,160
Speaker 4: disability somebody would have with lower back pain was really

255
00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,320
Speaker 4: related to their belief of what was wrong at the start.

256
00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:51,200
Speaker 4: And so for a lot of old school health pros,

257
00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,040
Speaker 4: they've gone in and they said, right, we'll send you

258
00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,920
Speaker 4: off to get an MRI if you love it back

259
00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:59,320
Speaker 4: and the person has walked back into the GP and

260
00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,199
Speaker 4: they've said, Wow, you've got a spine of a seventy

261
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,920
Speaker 4: year old. This is stuff my patients were telling me.

262
00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,200
Speaker 4: You know, you've got disc degeneration and all these things,

263
00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:13,120
Speaker 4: which really they're like having a gray hair, they're like

264
00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:16,720
Speaker 4: having a wrinkle. So you know, we've seen that with

265
00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,360
Speaker 4: a lot of imaging of the lower back. It's across

266
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:26,240
Speaker 4: the population where there are you know, signs of normal

267
00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,440
Speaker 4: aging if you like. And so that's where I got

268
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,600
Speaker 4: really mindful of how I was communicating to somebody what

269
00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,280
Speaker 4: was wrong, because if there was fear, then I was

270
00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,640
Speaker 4: turning up the volume on pain signals. So that got

271
00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,240
Speaker 4: me really interested in the work of the nervous system

272
00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:46,920
Speaker 4: in terms of the autonomic nervous system, which is out

273
00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:51,680
Speaker 4: in a surveillance system. And I learned that through a

274
00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,240
Speaker 4: heightened nervous system where we're either you fight or flight

275
00:14:55,880 --> 00:15:00,920
Speaker 4: or freeze and shutdown, we can be experiencing greater because

276
00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:05,560
Speaker 4: of how closely this system speaks to every system, like

277
00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,800
Speaker 4: our immune system. It can heighten inflammation, the endocrine system,

278
00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,920
Speaker 4: it can create changes there. So I went deep into

279
00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,760
Speaker 4: the work of the autonomic nervous system to be like, well,

280
00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:22,840
Speaker 4: how can I help people turn down this protective threat system?

281
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:27,680
Speaker 4: And that is really like where we're looking at that

282
00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:33,600
Speaker 4: we're seeing this amplification carried largely out, and so what

283
00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,920
Speaker 4: people can look at is like one portal that's really

284
00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:42,760
Speaker 4: helpful for managing pain is nervous system regulation. The other

285
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,520
Speaker 4: part of this is to probably look at the concept

286
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,920
Speaker 4: if we're speaking specifically to chronic and persistent pain of

287
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,160
Speaker 4: pacing or activity pacing, and this is where we would

288
00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:58,840
Speaker 4: look at in a given time. Can if you know,

289
00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,920
Speaker 4: we've got busy life, kids, work like, there's physical demands,

290
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,200
Speaker 4: there's things we have to do, and then there's probably

291
00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,480
Speaker 4: things we'd like to do, and sometimes that means having

292
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:10,960
Speaker 4: a list of like, well, these are all the things

293
00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:13,920
Speaker 4: that I have to get done, these are all the

294
00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,560
Speaker 4: things I'd like to get done, and how we structure that.

295
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:22,160
Speaker 4: So I would say that people with persistent pain probably

296
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,600
Speaker 4: find they struggle the most when they're feeling good, like

297
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,920
Speaker 4: where you said you weren't remembering, and then they get

298
00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,440
Speaker 4: really excited and do heaps and then the next day

299
00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:39,440
Speaker 4: they have a flarer. That's when I see a lot

300
00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:40,040
Speaker 4: of happened.

301
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,280
Speaker 3: So when it comes to like we've spoken a fair

302
00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:47,640
Speaker 3: bit about pain. But you know, regardless, as you mentioned,

303
00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,160
Speaker 3: stress for long enough is bad for you. It's sluck

304
00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,400
Speaker 3: smoking cigarettes. Really it can over time, it can really

305
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,800
Speaker 3: mess you up. It can give you you can affect

306
00:16:57,800 --> 00:16:59,160
Speaker 3: your heart, it can affect everything.

307
00:16:59,240 --> 00:16:59,440
Speaker 4: Right.

308
00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,520
Speaker 3: We're lucky though, because sometimes when I'm going on stage

309
00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:04,439
Speaker 3: and I talk about mental health in the workplace, I

310
00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:06,520
Speaker 3: show a video of a chicken getting hypnotized. We like

311
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,000
Speaker 3: to think we're all smart and stuff, but we can

312
00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:11,480
Speaker 3: just do things with our bodies deliberately that will turn

313
00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:15,600
Speaker 3: on relaxation reflexes like that, And it's and it's skills

314
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,119
Speaker 3: that I see them now teaching my youngest son stuff

315
00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:20,960
Speaker 3: that I never knew though as a kid.

316
00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:23,080
Speaker 2: What are you you know, I don't know what are

317
00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:23,680
Speaker 2: your go tos?

318
00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:25,720
Speaker 3: If people find themselves getting a bit out of that window,

319
00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,160
Speaker 3: get themselves a bit a bit up. My hands are

320
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,000
Speaker 3: a bit shaking, my heart's running. I think I yelled

321
00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:31,760
Speaker 3: the last three things I just said. I need to

322
00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,720
Speaker 3: downregulate a bit. What are your kind of go tos

323
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:36,400
Speaker 3: when it comes to trying to downregulate?

324
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,199
Speaker 4: It's a really good question, and I think I love

325
00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,840
Speaker 4: how you've already worded it. We downregulate, so it gives

326
00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,600
Speaker 4: the clue that, you know, if we are up regulated,

327
00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:51,479
Speaker 4: there's like a mobilization. We've got too much energy in

328
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:55,000
Speaker 4: our system. And one thing I think that's really interesting,

329
00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,399
Speaker 4: and you know, there's like this little bit of a

330
00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,000
Speaker 4: lie from the wellness in this around being calm all

331
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:03,840
Speaker 4: the time, A live.

332
00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,280
Speaker 2: From the wellness industry.

333
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,800
Speaker 4: They've kicked us only be thinking we should become all

334
00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:10,200
Speaker 4: the time.

335
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,960
Speaker 3: But what I bought a linen shirt? Why isn't everything okay?

336
00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,240
Speaker 4: You're talking about to someone from the Bay and Bay region. Remember,

337
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,560
Speaker 4: linen's the thing. But if we look at this in

338
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:31,280
Speaker 4: terms of how we experience a range of emotions or

339
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:36,879
Speaker 4: sensations in that state where we're upregulated, it's typically fight

340
00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:41,200
Speaker 4: energy or flight energy. And so if it's fight energy,

341
00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:46,399
Speaker 4: I typically see people struggle to contain fight energy because

342
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,240
Speaker 4: we have this thing that we think that anger is

343
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,840
Speaker 4: bad or role we're not a spiritual person if we

344
00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:57,520
Speaker 4: get angry. But really it's allowing fight energy to come

345
00:18:57,560 --> 00:18:59,880
Speaker 4: in and express it in our body in a way

346
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,840
Speaker 4: that can actually, if it's channel right, really help us

347
00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,719
Speaker 4: have strength and agency and mastery and set boundaries and

348
00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,160
Speaker 4: stand up for ourselves. And I think for a lot

349
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,520
Speaker 4: of the time we're pushing it down before it gets

350
00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:18,159
Speaker 4: a chance to come in. But I think for the

351
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:20,800
Speaker 4: if you look at the natural response of how fight

352
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,400
Speaker 4: energy wants to come through and express itself, we will

353
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,480
Speaker 4: feel a contraction of our muscles right there will actually

354
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:32,760
Speaker 4: be this. So sometimes it's as simple as allowing our

355
00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,760
Speaker 4: body to come into contraction through the wrists, the hands,

356
00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:41,000
Speaker 4: the arms, really the shoulders where that strong energy is,

357
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,040
Speaker 4: letting it be activated rather than trying to calm it down,

358
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,600
Speaker 4: like go, okay, this is how it wants to express.

359
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,240
Speaker 4: And for a lot of the people that I work with,

360
00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,879
Speaker 4: that is the fastest way to regulation rather than a

361
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:59,359
Speaker 4: you know, I shouldn't be feeling this way and that's like, well, okay,

362
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,239
Speaker 4: this is anger. Now how do I want to let

363
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,000
Speaker 4: it move through? And what does it want? What does

364
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:04,520
Speaker 4: it want to do?

365
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:07,000
Speaker 2: That's so interesting.

366
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,919
Speaker 3: It sounds very similar to some work I did with

367
00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,560
Speaker 3: a trauma therapist where she would get me to do

368
00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,159
Speaker 3: just that. We would recall, you know, things were not fun.

369
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,760
Speaker 3: I like, for example, if one thing I wanted to run,

370
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,280
Speaker 3: she would get me to do stuff with my legs.

371
00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:24,080
Speaker 3: If there was one thing I wanted to gouge people's

372
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,320
Speaker 3: eyes out, she had me shove my thumbs into a

373
00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:30,359
Speaker 3: Swiss ball and it was almost like my body was like, okay,

374
00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:31,000
Speaker 3: we're done here.

375
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,320
Speaker 4: That's exactly it. Because we're working with a part of

376
00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,439
Speaker 4: the brain that doesn't have a concept of time, and

377
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:42,720
Speaker 4: it stores these memories as an implicit response, or what

378
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,760
Speaker 4: we would say in phy zero terms as a procedural memory,

379
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,359
Speaker 4: which is like say you know how to get up

380
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,360
Speaker 4: and surf. You've like got step one, push up, stand up,

381
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,280
Speaker 4: you know, move your feet and it becomes automated. It's

382
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,080
Speaker 4: stored in your brain. You don't have to think about

383
00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:01,960
Speaker 4: it consciously. We store nervous system patterns in the same

384
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:07,320
Speaker 4: way in this simplicit memory system. So we can't talk

385
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:12,440
Speaker 4: our way out of that trauma response. We can't talk

386
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:17,439
Speaker 4: our nervous system into feeling safe. We need to experience

387
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:22,840
Speaker 4: safety in our body or allow that activation that once

388
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:27,959
Speaker 4: came up from an event to play out how it

389
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,520
Speaker 4: needs to, because otherwise the survival brain, which is the

390
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:36,440
Speaker 4: part of the brain that today will say something is safe, dangerous,

391
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,360
Speaker 4: or life threatening, will continue to think that that experience

392
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,199
Speaker 4: is going on. It has no concept of time, almost

393
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 4: like what you said before. So if we let it,

394
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,439
Speaker 4: if we say, okay, body express it how you want to,

395
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:51,880
Speaker 4: Like I think about this with grief so much right,

396
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 4: we've made grief a very cognitive experience when it's actually

397
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,639
Speaker 4: very primal. Until we let the body express how it

398
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,840
Speaker 4: needs too, we stay stuck and that's where we see

399
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 4: things like anxiety, depression, anger, despair. So what your therapist

400
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 4: is doing if we can, if we do come back

401
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,960
Speaker 4: to an implicit memory, then we let the survival brain

402
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,399
Speaker 4: play it out in our body a nervous system, and

403
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:21,280
Speaker 4: it completes this stress activation cycle from the past and

404
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 4: it's gone.

405
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:27,640
Speaker 3: It seems too simple, and it seemed too simple until

406
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 3: it happened to me and I was like, oh, okay, well,

407
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 3: I'm glad I came. Where does breathing play a role

408
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 3: in helping us get more regulated and have access to

409
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 3: a bit more bandwidth when it comes to making good

410
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 3: choices in a moment?

411
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, breath it can be super useful. You know, we

412
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 4: can use a longer breath. There's various variations we can

413
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 4: use of that. You know, I work a lot with

414
00:22:55,040 --> 00:23:00,240
Speaker 4: teaching now heal's practitioners how to deliver nervous system informed care. Yeah,

415
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 4: like a little bit like you're talking about with the

416
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 4: person you worked with, and it's good. But I don't

417
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 4: think it's where we should start with trauma. I think

418
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 4: it's been probably generalized that everyone should do breath work,

419
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,360
Speaker 4: but the breast can be really triggering for a lot

420
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 4: of people, particularly who you know, froze in the moment

421
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:24,520
Speaker 4: of experiencing something. So I would start with more cultivating

422
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 4: more safety first, if we're looking for this through the

423
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,680
Speaker 4: lens of trauma, if you know, if it's for we're

424
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,199
Speaker 4: feeling pretty grounded and resourced, it can be great. You know,

425
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 4: it can improve heart rate variability, which is the measure

426
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 4: of the vagus nerves functioning. And we know that high

427
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:47,439
Speaker 4: heart rate variability or high vagual tone is correlated with

428
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,199
Speaker 4: better psychological and physical health. So we can look at

429
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,479
Speaker 4: it as a matched in breath and out breath than

430
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 4: both of those are quite long, and then if we

431
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 4: extend the exhalation, we can see we're bringing more of

432
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 4: a slowing down of our physiology. But just to be mindful,

433
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,919
Speaker 4: for some people, they're already too slow and to shut

434
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 4: down or burnt out or exhausted, so they probably would

435
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,160
Speaker 4: be better not using that breath pattern. So the key

436
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 4: is really specificity of where what state are we in

437
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 4: to what we need?

438
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 3: What about I don't know, let's say I mean I'm

439
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 3: guessing I'm ask for from someone that's Anxiety has been

440
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 3: a part of my adventures to the point where it

441
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 3: gets too much and then get ends the depression and

442
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 3: then you know you're just to shut down. So I generally,

443
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 3: if I'm going anywhere, I'm spending time on the higher

444
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 3: side of things, and that does limit my choices of

445
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 3: response and limit my ability to get in the way

446
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 3: between the stimulus and response. Things can flow out of

447
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 3: my mouth too quick. Where it happens to all of us.

448
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,120
Speaker 3: So in those say, for example, what are some ways,

449
00:24:58,200 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 3: like if we're losing it at the kids or whatever,

450
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 3: what are some ways that you can help yourself get

451
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 3: a little more together without anybody knowing.

452
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 2: Ah, Dad's doing the breathing thing again.

453
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure, for sure. So the body is sensory,

454
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 4: like what's happening that sensory information. This is really linked

455
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 4: with persistent pain too. So if you think about the

456
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 4: brain being in the dark and in the sky, it's

457
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 4: a little bit like being in a box and it

458
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 4: doesn't actually know what's happening so well, but it relies

459
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 4: on the body's holistic response to tell it how it is.

460
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 4: You know, we're very top down centric. We're very about mindset,

461
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 4: think more positive, which can have its place that I'm

462
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 4: not downplaying that at all. But in the time when

463
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 4: we are super heightened, it doesn't work for us so well,

464
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 4: So what we need is to look at, well, how

465
00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:01,639
Speaker 4: can I change the sensory information from my body traveling

466
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 4: upwards to my brain. And we are sending signals to

467
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 4: the brain, Hey, you're good down here, and that will

468
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 4: settle down our experience the quickest. So in the heat

469
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 4: of the moment, we want to connect with more the

470
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 4: information on the outside of our body, because what's inside

471
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 4: can feel so overwhelming. So we call that our exter

472
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 4: receptive information. And as you're sitting here now, orsure you

473
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 4: might think, well, okay, I'm feeling pretty charged. But if

474
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 4: I was to feel the sense that my chair was

475
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 4: really supporting my wage, and I paid attention to the

476
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 4: outside of my skin, like the backs of my legs,

477
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 4: the base of my pelvis, and I let my body,

478
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 4: particularly when we're heightened, if we can let the body

479
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 4: settle into the chair more and we send that message

480
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 4: to the brain. So we need to come back and

481
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 4: notice it again, and we start to notice as well

482
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 4: with that a feeling of stability, steadiness, and a settling

483
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 4: our survival brain starts to go, oh, that must all

484
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 4: be okay. Down there because all I'm getting is a

485
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 4: message of steadiness and stability, and often the outside of

486
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 4: the body is less activating than say the breast, where

487
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 4: we might notice air hunger, and we're paying attention to

488
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 4: air hunger and the brain's getting a message of air hunger,

489
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 4: it just ramps up the amplification. So we need to

490
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 4: find these places in our sensory information that is safe

491
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 4: and send that message upwards to the survival brain.

492
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 3: Just taking a break from Jessica to let you know

493
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 3: that the story Club YouTube is.

494
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 1: Up and absolutely firing.

495
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 3: If you're looking for something interesting to watch over the break,

496
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 3: you can find brilliant, fresh, insightful, hilarious Australian stories on

497
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 3: the YouTube page for story Club. Each story is absolutely

498
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:03,640
Speaker 3: true and less than fifteen hundred words, so they're between

499
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 3: twelve and fifty minutes long and it's from all shot

500
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 3: at our fantastic monthly live storytelling show that we do

501
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 3: here in Sydney called story Club. It's been running for

502
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 3: sixteen years now and the next shows are in February.

503
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 3: Tickets are in the show notes for that as well

504
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 3: as the YouTube page. That's where you can also grab

505
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 3: a copy of my books.

506
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 2: So what now what? And of course back after the break.

507
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 3: The ABA nominated Book of the Year. So back after

508
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 3: the break, I mean I lost that award to someone

509
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 3: called Trent Dolton with Boys Swallow's Universe.

510
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 1: But hey, you're going to get that's okay.

511
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 2: It's a very good author and a very cool book.

512
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: We're back in a moment.

513
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 3: These things can be useful in the moment when you're

514
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 3: in a peak. But what are some things or some

515
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 3: practical ways that we can work whatever.

516
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 2: It is into our day to day.

517
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 3: You know? For example, I knew a guy and whenever

518
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 3: he walks through a doorway, he did ten push ups,

519
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 3: all right, So it was just like, this is my trigger,

520
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 3: this is what I'll get my stuff done during the day.

521
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 3: He ended up at the end of the day, you know,

522
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 3: doing eight hundred push ups or whatever like. But that's

523
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 3: how he it's what he did. So what's something that

524
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 3: we might be able to hang on some sort of

525
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 3: action in our data, make sure that this stuff just

526
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 3: happens we don't have to think about it, or we

527
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 3: stay ready.

528
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 2: So we have to get ready.

529
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 4: I think the biggest thing is to be able to

530
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 4: build something that we call inter reception and this is

531
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 4: our ability to read our bodily signals. And so for

532
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 4: people who tend to be more on the flatter side,

533
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 4: the depressed side, and there's research showing that it's harder

534
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 4: for them to notice bodily signals. And then people who

535
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 4: are more on the anxious and wound up side, and

536
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 4: this is linked now with persistent pain inter reception, we

537
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 4: know that their accuracy isn't so good at reading bodily signals.

538
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 4: It immediately is detected as a threat. So what we

539
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 4: want to do is like check in with our body often.

540
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 4: And so for a lot of people who tend to

541
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 4: be disconnected from their body, it can mean that you

542
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 4: might set an alarm on your phone three times a day.

543
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 4: That's like, hey, check in. Like neurodivergent individuals will certainly

544
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 4: be able to say, oh, yeah, that's me I miscues

545
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 4: of hunger, and then I get angry, Like that's all

546
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 4: impacting on the nervous system and our physiology and how

547
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 4: we feel. So it can be as simple as that.

548
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 4: But if we're looking at the foundation of emotional regulation,

549
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 4: it is tuning into bodily signals, because it's two or

550
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 4: more bodily signals that make up an emotion. You know,

551
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 4: there's not one spot in our brain where our emotions are.

552
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 4: It's like it's coming from the bodily signals, creating a

553
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 4: whole brain experience, which then feeds down into what happens

554
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 4: physiologically in our body. So it's like a continual feedback,

555
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 4: you know, like a figure of eight. So the more

556
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 4: you can tune in and be like, oh, it could

557
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 4: be as simple as like I'm working all day like this,

558
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 4: it's got to go faster, I got to do more,

559
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 4: got to go faster, and there's like no connection to

560
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 4: my tight shoulder.

561
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

562
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 3: So just for people who are listening, you're sitting with

563
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 3: your shoulders forward, you're hunched forward, you're you know, it

564
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 3: looks like you're trying to touch the front part of

565
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 3: your shoulder, your shoulders together in front of your chin.

566
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 4: Exactly.

567
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 3: I've certainly been like that, you know, when I was

568
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 3: really worked up.

569
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 4: Yes, we know that when we're more wound up, we

570
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 4: are going to be less connected to our bodily experiences,

571
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 4: or if we are noticing them, they're amplified. Like we said,

572
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 4: we paid it. It's a really similar experience with that

573
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 4: anxiety or hypervigilance and the amplification of pain signals. It's

574
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 4: just different networks going up to the brain. And that's

575
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 4: why I find it crossover so fascinating. And really it's

576
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 4: now where the sciences all leaning into this process of

577
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 4: how the brain and body communicate with each other.

578
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 3: So just through the day, as you mentioned, like setting

579
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 3: an alarm on your phone and just noticing where your

580
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 3: body is.

581
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, and so if it's like as simple as oh

582
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 4: my gosh, I've been sitting here with my shoulders up,

583
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 4: like that's going to feed into the survival brain. It's

584
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 4: checking in with the breath and being like, oh wow,

585
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 4: I'm really like you know, if you look at people

586
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 4: in their upper chest breathing and it's like they're just

587
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 4: breathing up here. You can hear it sometimes in people's

588
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 4: voice and you see all the muscles in their neck

589
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 4: tightened up. So the breath coming back down again is

590
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 4: another way. If we looked at the research that was

591
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 4: done on there was day traders in London who were

592
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,719
Speaker 4: they were looking at who was successful or more successful,

593
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 4: and it was tying into making these big decisions on

594
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 4: trades and the traders we're talking about.

595
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 2: We're talking about stock exchange.

596
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 3: We're talking about people who are making a choice, making

597
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 3: a decision based on available data, a very time critical

598
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 3: decision that can either make or lose millions and millions.

599
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 4: Of dollars exactly. And those who listen to their bodily

600
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 4: signals accurately, you know, it wasn't like completely oh yeah,

601
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 4: I rationally chose this decision. We're more successful and so

602
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 4: there is this linking to our values, our decisions, like

603
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 4: trusting the signals that we're having going on inside of us.

604
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 4: The tricky part is deciphering that from what is a trigger,

605
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 4: you know, like today and say, wow, I feel like

606
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 4: a trigger will be a much louder, overwhelming signal than say,

607
00:33:56,040 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 4: listening to a quiet intuitive signal. But when we can

608
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 4: check in, you know, whether it's through the alarm or

609
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 4: whether it's we say, like habit stacking like you're saying

610
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 4: of if I do after my teeth brushing a time

611
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 4: where I'm like, okay, what state am I in? And

612
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 4: this can be as simple as I'm in the middle,

613
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 4: I'm regulated like what you're saying with the window of tolerance,

614
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 4: or I'm in hyper arousal, or I'm in hyper arousal,

615
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,439
Speaker 4: you know, really noticing that from an embody like through

616
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 4: the body, rather than trying to be too cognitive. That

617
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 4: in itself is making us our intercept do signals clearer

618
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 4: and more accurate, so tying it into simple things that

619
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 4: we do every day.

620
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 3: After I got divorced, there was a really clever fellow

621
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 3: that I spoke with, is a kind of life coach

622
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 3: mentor kind of guy, a really interesting guy.

623
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 2: And he told me about and exactly what you're talking about.

624
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,839
Speaker 2: He said, just literally just walk with your head facing up,

625
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 2: walk with your head high. I literally walk with your head.

626
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 2: I'm like, what do you mean? Goes?

627
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 3: Your brain doesn't know where it is, and if your

628
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 3: head's high, that's a signal that things are okay, and

629
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,399
Speaker 3: your brain I'll be like, okay, things are okay. I said,

630
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 3: is that because yes, that's simple. I couldn't believe it.

631
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 3: But it's fascinating hearing this kind of stuff. And I'm

632
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 3: so grateful that we know this stuff now, that the

633
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 3: choices we may not realize that we're making about our

634
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 3: posture and the way we stand can unwittingly, unwillingly sell

635
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 3: send signals that end up give us an experience of

636
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 3: discomfort and emotionally difficult. You know, things that should be

637
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 3: easy become difficult emotionally because we're now in these tightened

638
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 3: states we don't really.

639
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 2: Need to be in. You mentioned being down before sometimes.

640
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 3: I mean I spoke with my cardiologist a couple of

641
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 3: months back and it took a minute, but I'm just

642
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 3: down to one double espresso a day.

643
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 4: Which is congratulations.

644
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 1: Man.

645
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 3: Like, I don't do any drugs that aren't prescribed, and

646
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 3: caffeine is what you'd be able to pry out of.

647
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 2: My cold dead hands. However, it is.

648
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 3: Definitely something that people reach for, whether a cup of

649
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 3: tea at four in the afternoon or you know, an

650
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 3: extra shot of this or that or the other. But ultimately,

651
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,399
Speaker 3: what caffeine, caffeine's doing is just borrowing. What's the one

652
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 3: worrying for Peter to PayPal? It's like borrowing something out

653
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 3: of your body to use it in the moment, but

654
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 3: then eventually it's gonna it's going.

655
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:26,399
Speaker 2: To come back down again.

656
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 3: So what are some ways that if we need to

657
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 3: like we've talked a lot about down regulating, if there

658
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 3: are ways that we need to lift, what are some

659
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 3: ways that we can do that without you know, putting

660
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 3: unnecessary stress on our adrenal system.

661
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 4: I love what you just said because we talk about

662
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 4: this as the artificial window of tolerance where people like

663
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 4: come into this pseudo state, which is like a band

664
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 4: we're you're not really going into the window. But for

665
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 4: people who are shut down, they will often do it

666
00:36:54,800 --> 00:37:01,240
Speaker 4: through exactly what you said, caffeine, stimulants, drugs, horn, video gaming,

667
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 4: horror movies like anything that gets that adrenaline system pumped up.

668
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 4: But it's not true regulation. I mean it can go

669
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 4: the other way as well, from the wound up state,

670
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 4: typically alcohol, you know, getting lost on social media because

671
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 4: it is a distraction and it brings us down, but

672
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 4: it doesn't it's not the same as regulation. It's not

673
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 4: a true refuge. It's more a false way of feeling different.

674
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 4: But what it means is we've got to say, well,

675
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 4: what's my true need underneath that? Like we look at

676
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 4: the behavior as being like, oh, it's an addiction, and

677
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 4: it can be, but it's also looking at well, what

678
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 4: is the true need underneath that behavior that I need

679
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 4: to change? And so for people who were down regulated,

680
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,359
Speaker 4: we can see a lot in that state that could

681
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 4: be going on. So it could be like a shutdown collapse,

682
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,879
Speaker 4: which is related to you touched on this before when

683
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 4: you said you were like heightened for a long time

684
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 4: and then crash down into that more of a shutdown,

685
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 4: And so it can be physiologically there's been a depletion

686
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:11,760
Speaker 4: of that sympathetic energy and there's definitely a lot of

687
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 4: the vagus nerves regulating energy. So one of the things

688
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 4: that we can look at is we want to upregulate

689
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 4: the nervous system in a safe way. And now this

690
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 4: sounds a little bit curious, but I think play is

691
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 4: one of the best things that we can use for

692
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 4: our nervous system. So it's more the play that we

693
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:38,359
Speaker 4: use with other people. That's where we feel safe and

694
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 4: we can mobilize energy safely. So for me, that is

695
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 4: like on the weekend we took our daughter surfing and

696
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 4: hurt giggling and her play, my husband and I in

697
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 4: the water. That's that's definitely a feeling of play. But

698
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 4: I would say it's a very subjective experience, you know,

699
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 4: like it will feel different for other people. But how

700
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 4: do you mobilize energy safely? You know, it can be karaoke,

701
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 4: going to a comedy show, and often when we're in

702
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:13,320
Speaker 4: that state, the narrative is that we don't belong, we're alone,

703
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 4: we're like you know, shut off in a cold dark

704
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 4: room by ourselves, and so we will isolate. But if

705
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 4: we look at the antidote to shame, which also maps

706
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 4: down into that state, it's belonging. So if we can

707
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 4: bring ourselves to get past the narrative that comes from

708
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 4: this state, if I don't belong and connect with other people,

709
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 4: doing something that mobilizes us, that will upregulate us. If

710
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 4: we're not at the place where we can talk, it

711
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,879
Speaker 4: can be just going to a location where other people are,

712
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 4: So that could be a park, a beach, a shopping center,

713
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 4: just a cafe. You don't have to talk. This isn't

714
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 4: about telling your story. It's about changing your physiology and

715
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:01,879
Speaker 4: all of that can regulate you do because we are

716
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 4: wired to feel a belonging through being around up community.

717
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,879
Speaker 3: You would never know that you know you have this

718
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,399
Speaker 3: bachelor health science that are Masters physiotherapy because the stuff

719
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 3: you're talking about is the kind of stuff I've spoken

720
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 3: about with so many sykes. But the crossover is something

721
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 3: I've been starting to notice very recently. This is the

722
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 3: stuff that really it really gave me personally a lot

723
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:27,800
Speaker 3: of a lot of relief and a lot of freedom,

724
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 3: you know, and still now. I mean, you know, I'm

725
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 3: like two or three out of ten most days of discomfort.

726
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 2: I don't really call it pain, but it's okay. You know,

727
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 2: I've got room. I can have it.

728
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 3: It sucks if I let it, but I've got enough

729
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 3: room for it to suck and to roll around on

730
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:47,800
Speaker 3: jiu jitsumat.

731
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 2: With my son. You know, I can have both.

732
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 3: And but you can't do that if you don't, if

733
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 3: you aren't able to like make the space for it,

734
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 3: you kind of have to kind of make the space

735
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 3: for it.

736
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 2: It's a lot to try.

737
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 3: But I'm lucky, you know, I've got years of speaking

738
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 3: with people and being diagnosed with this and that, learning

739
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 3: how to get better before this happened to me. Like

740
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 3: if I had gone from nothing to this, I would

741
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 3: be I would struggle to hear some of the stuff

742
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 3: you're trying to tell me.

743
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:21,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, it can be really challenging without context, but also

744
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 4: without it feeling like it's you know, wishy washy when

745
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 4: you have a lot of pain. And I think this

746
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 4: is because we haven't joined the dots so well with

747
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 4: you know, connecting the systems. We've sort of said, well,

748
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 4: the body's here, the brain's here. And like what I

749
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 4: think about when I was a physio of going, well

750
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 4: I treat the body. It's a brain problem. I'm going

751
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,720
Speaker 4: to say this to any Hell's pros. If you're working

752
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 4: with people, you are counseling them like, it's not okay

753
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 4: now to go, oh, well, I don't deal with that,

754
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 4: and as well with you know, from the psych point

755
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,439
Speaker 4: of view, if you're saying, well, I work with the brain, well,

756
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 4: if you're working with trauma, you're working with the body.

757
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,319
Speaker 4: So there's a step up now that Hell's practitioners I

758
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 4: believe need to take to work that intersectionality exactly what

759
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 4: you're saying. And also I just wanted to say how

760
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 4: much courage it takes to keep doing that work. So

761
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,399
Speaker 4: you know, you've really owned that, and I think it's

762
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 4: it's hard if you're not proactive in getting the help

763
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 4: that you need.

764
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 3: I think that's thank you for saying thank you for

765
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 3: saying so. But it did get to the point where

766
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 3: that was the only option. And this is you know,

767
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,720
Speaker 3: change only happens when the fear of change is smaller

768
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 3: than the pain of staying the same.

769
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:49,839
Speaker 2: That's what drives it.

770
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 3: That's with anything really like and if it is connecting

771
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 3: with your values, and particularly when we're talking, you know,

772
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 3: speaking with you, we're talking about I wanted to be

773
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 3: able to move where well and be able to stay

774
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 3: regulated to a point where you may really want to

775
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 3: connect with someone. You may really want to but there's

776
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 3: some stuff about them that you don't realize is reminding

777
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 3: you of someone that there's.

778
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 2: Got nothing to do with them.

779
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 3: But when so when you speak to them, you're a

780
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,359
Speaker 3: fucking puffer fish and you're spiky and nasty, and then

781
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:17,840
Speaker 3: you don't understand why they don't want to come near you,

782
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 3: and you're like, ah, what's going on here? You know,

783
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 3: it's so important, you know, to be aware of what

784
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 3: happens when we get just regulated and how we can

785
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 3: move into choices we may not realize don't belong in

786
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,879
Speaker 3: this moment, but it's simply our body trying to keep us.

787
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 4: Safe, exactly. And I think you've really nailed it with

788
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:45,320
Speaker 4: that process of how we move between the different states

789
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 4: that we call neuroception. It's happening outside of conscious awareness,

790
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 4: you know, we don't know what's happening, and it's influenced

791
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 4: by our past experience. This is like the same with pain.

792
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 4: It has the same thing. We think about our house

793
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 4: being broken into and we didn't want it to happen again,

794
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 4: so we installed a super fancy alarm system, and then

795
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 4: we have this alarm going off all the time. That's

796
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,800
Speaker 4: like saying there's a danger, you know, like we're wound

797
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,720
Speaker 4: up with anxiety, we're down in shut down. But pain

798
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,879
Speaker 4: is the same way, and so we have visibility even

799
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 4: though it's happening in those centers outside of conscious awareness,

800
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 4: to bring them into awareness and work with them. And

801
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 4: I think that's probably what's so exciting now, is knowing

802
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 4: that you know so much of this we can have

803
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,879
Speaker 4: an influence on. Even if we have a history of

804
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 4: traumatic experiences like developmental trauma. We have seen from the

805
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 4: orphanages in Romania that they had better outcomes once they

806
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 4: got the right connection and the right adopted families. Like

807
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,399
Speaker 4: it doesn't have to be the whole story. It can

808
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 4: be that was a chapter, and we have the tools

809
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 4: to change things.

810
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 3: God, it's very hard to hear you say the sentence

811
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 3: without seeing that I remember the footage of those kids

812
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 3: all just sitting on the floor and nappies. Yeah, it

813
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 3: was nobody holding them, nobody touching them, and just this

814
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 3: thousand yards stare in every one of them. There was horrible, horrible,

815
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 3: horrible stuff. We keep mentioning this thing, the vegus nerve.

816
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 3: What is it that the vagus nerve does in our body.

817
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:27,879
Speaker 4: If you ran your hand down the back of your

818
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 4: head and you feel that bony ridge, and we know

819
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 4: that's where the brain stems starts, so it comes down today,

820
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 4: it's got a branch to the heart, and then it's

821
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:36,799
Speaker 4: got a branch that runs all the way down to

822
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 4: the coalon. So the branch to the heart is like

823
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 4: the break that will regulate our emotions and physiology. It's

824
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 4: a bit like if you ride a bicycle downhill, it

825
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 4: keeps enough for that breaking gauge so you don't go

826
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 4: too fast. And then the branch from the brain to

827
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 4: our gut is regulating all of our organs. This is

828
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 4: why we see that link between pain and inflammation, because

829
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 4: you know, if we are in this regulation for a

830
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 4: long time, the vegas nerve gets interrupted from its job

831
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 4: of regulating our organs. But in that process, It actually

832
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 4: controls the level of information in our body, and so

833
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 4: if we are always anxious, then the vegas nerves interrupted,

834
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 4: then it's more likely that we can have higher levels

835
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:33,840
Speaker 4: of information. That's one portal to persistent pain. So most

836
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 4: of that signaling of the vegas nerve is actually running

837
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:41,319
Speaker 4: from the body up to the brain, and when we're

838
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 4: tapping into noticing our bodily signals, we're actually using that network.

839
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 4: You know, if we're paying attention to signals in our gut,

840
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 4: that's the vegus nerve that's sending those messages. Now, if

841
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 4: those messages coming up and we reach part in the

842
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 4: brain called then that's related to our emotional awareness. It

843
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 4: plays a role in our social connections with other people

844
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:12,799
Speaker 4: as well, and all of this will influence our physiology

845
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 4: of how the vagus nerve comes back down. So it's

846
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 4: a little bit like this continual feedback loop of information

847
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,760
Speaker 4: that we can jump on to, particularly with the fibers

848
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 4: running up to change our physiology on the way back down.

849
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 4: I do have to say that I do get a

850
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 4: little bit ranty when I see people say you can

851
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 4: hack it. It's not like we can just go ah,

852
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 4: I'm just going to turn this on or off or

853
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 4: something like that. It's like saying you can hack your

854
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 4: spinal cord. But I think what's interesting to know is

855
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 4: that we can build our ability to cope with and

856
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 4: recover from stresses. Because stress isn't going to go away

857
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 4: as part of life, so I was paying you know,

858
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 4: we're going to still have them, but we can build

859
00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:01,280
Speaker 4: our ability to in that moment have a wider window

860
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:05,439
Speaker 4: like we were in talking about, and so we may

861
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 4: not necessarily move into fight or flight in the face

862
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 4: of a challenge. And it's actually the part of the

863
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 4: vagus nerve that we call the vaguel break that acts

864
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 4: to control that, and it can we can train this

865
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 4: to be very fine tune to match what's happening in

866
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 4: our environment. And just like we're talking about with neuroplasticity

867
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,759
Speaker 4: and this ability to change, it means that we can

868
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:35,879
Speaker 4: match what's happening in our external environment with the same

869
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 4: amount of activation that we need to meet that challenge

870
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 4: and demand. Because most of dysregulation is really that our

871
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 4: inner world is responding to something in the past, but

872
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 4: we want to come back to responding to what's happening today.

873
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 2: From the way I understand it. The vagus nerve.

874
00:48:56,080 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 3: Is this this thing that influences subconscious reacts in our

875
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 3: body like peristalsis digestion, whether we're breathing fast or slow,

876
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 3: hard right, et cetera. Yet, if we do things like

877
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:10,320
Speaker 3: slowing our movements down, noticing what my T shirt feels

878
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 3: on my skin, taking some extra long exhales, that is

879
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 3: influencing the information as you mentioned, that's going back over

880
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 3: to my brain, which then changes my experience of things.

881
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 3: And then it starts to flick all these switches going, well,

882
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 3: I guess if I'm feeling that I'm okay here and

883
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:27,800
Speaker 3: my T shirt's good, and we're breathing a little slower,

884
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 3: then we don't have to be so wird right now? Yeah?

885
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 4: That because yes, I love that explanation, especially about my

886
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 4: T shirt. It's good. You've summed it up beautifully. But

887
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 4: it's definitely the bottom up information that we can connect

888
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 4: to that will tell the brain, yep, we're sweet. And

889
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 4: then it's that lower center of the brain that changes

890
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 4: how the vagus nerve will then play out. But it's

891
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 4: really the connection to safety and trust, right That's the key.

892
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 4: So if we're sending messages of safety, trust, I'm okay.

893
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 4: Then that's how our physiology will change to adapt, and

894
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 4: that's when the Vaga stove will come back online.

895
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 3: I understand why people want to be so excited about it,

896
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:09,719
Speaker 3: because I mean, I can't control how quickly.

897
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 2: I digest breakfast. Yes, right, I can't control.

898
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:15,759
Speaker 3: I can't decide when I'm going to pooh like it

899
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 3: just I can hold on, but I can't go yet

900
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:20,840
Speaker 3: at seven o'clock. Like, It's just so much of our

901
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 3: bodies out of our control. It just happens, you know,

902
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 3: in cycles of whatever, sleep, wake, you name it.

903
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:28,799
Speaker 2: So the idea that we had could have some.

904
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:34,440
Speaker 3: Influence over this unconscious way our body works is very exciting,

905
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 3: particularly when it relates to how we feel and the

906
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 3: ability to make good choices in a moment. I understand

907
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 3: why people get a bit ramped up about it. You

908
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 3: mentioned your child before. I get really excited when I

909
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 3: watch this stuff that they teach young Wilfee at school.

910
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 2: Yes, all right. We started him really early. We started

911
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 2: him with snake breaths, which is.

912
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 3: A love making my hand with like this, right, you

913
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 3: know exactly what I'm talking about. What are some things

914
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 3: that people can do, like, say, for example, let's start

915
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:14,360
Speaker 3: with five year olds.

916
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 2: And we'll go up.

917
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 3: You know, it was some things ways that people can

918
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 3: teach or get, you know, just at least a bit

919
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:22,439
Speaker 3: of regulation going on for their kids.

920
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 2: Just to do it as a habit.

921
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 4: It's all play basic kids. So when we work with

922
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 4: kids with you know, looking at different pediatric things that

923
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 4: we're always using play because when they're focused is where

924
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:40,439
Speaker 4: their brain body system will be activating where we can

925
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 4: change them. So with kids, it's almost like you put

926
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 4: your mind with their mind, right, so let them lead,

927
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 4: you come in with them. So let's say they're doing

928
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 4: something and they're you know, right into it, Like with

929
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 4: my daughter, we might play something like smell the flower,

930
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 4: blow away the pedals. So that's what you're saying with breathing.

931
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 4: But particularly if we want to use like play and

932
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 4: music to feel the body, particularly like talking about interception

933
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 4: like we are, there might be something like let's make

934
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 4: our hands open, close, open clothes. Can you feel the

935
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 4: tingly sensations inside your hands? And you know, we're naturally

936
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:20,880
Speaker 4: doing this a little bit with kids when say we're like,

937
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 4: do you need to go to the toilet and they're

938
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 4: like no, and they're like Oh, it looks like you've

939
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,799
Speaker 4: got your legs crossed and you're jiggling around. Do you

940
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 4: need to go to the toilet? So directing them to

941
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:34,879
Speaker 4: that is how we develop their ability to notice their

942
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 4: inner world. So, you know, lots of that play based,

943
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 4: body based, directed. But if you think about music as well,

944
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 4: in the way that you can you can entrain the

945
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:49,840
Speaker 4: system to come up with certain music or come back down.

946
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 4: That's another one. But a lot of it as well

947
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:58,760
Speaker 4: is the validation around emotions are okay, big feelings are okay,

948
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 4: and like kids aren't born with the ability to self regulate.

949
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:07,839
Speaker 4: They need us as coregulators first. So it's hard, you know.

950
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 4: I mean, parenting is the toughest. John as amazing, but

951
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,319
Speaker 4: you're also a challenge with it. But I think we've

952
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:17,439
Speaker 4: spoken about some things we can use in the heat

953
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 4: of the moment without contact points. But if we're feeling rild,

954
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 4: this is the time where we can use our movement

955
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 4: with kids as well. I really like the things where

956
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 4: there's a bit of testing them, as in playing a

957
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 4: game where you might be doing something then they need

958
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 4: to stop and you have to hold and they're like

959
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,920
Speaker 4: they feel the mobilization, like they're really excited, they want

960
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 4: to go. They've got to be able to hold. That's

961
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 4: like a self regulation and then you go again. So

962
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:47,839
Speaker 4: that might be like exciting music, exciting jumping. Stop, they've

963
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 4: got to hold go again. So that will teach them

964
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 4: to be able to bring in their vagus nerve or

965
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 4: the vagel break to slow back down.

966
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:01,319
Speaker 3: And here is how to jo Brahm is teaching us

967
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 3: as a whole community. The opening theme of Bluey with

968
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 3: the Dan the musical statues game. Fine, all right, Joe,

969
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 3: you're a genius. You deserve your money.

970
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 2: And if you're the gen your success because it's incredible.

971
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:19,000
Speaker 4: Yes, totally, but they will, you know, like a parent

972
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:23,400
Speaker 4: with the voice where we have vocal prosody, like if

973
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:25,760
Speaker 4: we're in our if we're in our Winner of Tolerance,

974
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 4: we say that we've got our social engagement system online,

975
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 4: which is part of the vegas nerves job or its

976
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 4: role in connection with other people. So you know, we're

977
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 4: not we're not necessarily regulated when we talk in our calm,

978
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 4: whispery voice like this, it's actually where there's ups and

979
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 4: downs in the voice. There's changes in pitch and rhythm,

980
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 4: and if a child hears that in their parents' voice,

981
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 4: they're going to feel already closer to regulation. When we

982
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 4: smile at them and they see the wrinkles around our eyes.

983
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 4: I know that we love to like botox these, but

984
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:05,760
Speaker 4: these are actually these wrinkles are actually on the outside

985
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 4: of our eyes. Are actually the wrinkles that send to

986
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 4: people cues of safety and connection. So if you see

987
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 4: someone smile at you, and they really smile with their

988
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:19,319
Speaker 4: eyes and you feel that waltz inside you know where

989
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 4: you're like, oh, that's oxytocin and your vegus nerve coming

990
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:27,759
Speaker 4: online and you're having that connection. So kids really need

991
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:30,839
Speaker 4: that too, And a lot of it is it's an

992
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 4: embodied state that we're in. You know, we can't fake it.

993
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:34,839
Speaker 4: They see through it.

994
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 3: It is interesting how were you're describing is that sometimes

995
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:43,640
Speaker 3: as a parent, or sometimes even as a couple, you

996
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:48,360
Speaker 3: may need to do some heavy lifting with regulating a situation.

997
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:51,319
Speaker 2: You know, if you're going hammer and tongs at it

998
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 2: with your like not like in a quarrel.

999
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 3: I should say, if you're in a quarrel with your

1000
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:59,840
Speaker 3: partner right and one of you is starting to become

1001
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,439
Speaker 3: you know, a little too elevated and things are getting there,

1002
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:06,240
Speaker 3: You've got to do some work. You can't get upset

1003
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:08,400
Speaker 3: at them for like, hey, can you calm down? Like

1004
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:10,759
Speaker 3: never ever has that ever?

1005
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:15,440
Speaker 4: Would No one's come down. I told to calm down. No.

1006
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 3: But it's interesting, isn't it How one person if they

1007
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:21,800
Speaker 3: if they're in that moment and they can identify or

1008
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 3: we're escalating here, that their regulation can affect the other person.

1009
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a mirror. You know. It's like if you

1010
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 4: think about what coregulation is. We've got research like definitely

1011
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 4: with child and parent, but this is between anybody like

1012
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 4: in the coregulation aspect of And this is what we're

1013
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:47,839
Speaker 4: teaching to our health practitioners at the moment that yes,

1014
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:49,680
Speaker 4: we can have all these tools, yes we can have

1015
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 4: all these skills, but your energy and the way you

1016
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:56,800
Speaker 4: show up for people who are having a really hard time.

1017
00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:01,359
Speaker 4: Like most of my patients were like PTSD clients, and

1018
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 4: that was like, okay, well, how do I stay regulated

1019
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:09,080
Speaker 4: each day or after a full day of people telling

1020
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 4: me it is? And that's probably not something that health

1021
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:14,759
Speaker 4: practitioners talk a lot about. You know, we've got to

1022
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:16,840
Speaker 4: be the strong one. We've got to be stoic, but

1023
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 4: we are influenced by each other. We can either move

1024
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 4: towards coregulation, where both of us, you know, we see

1025
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:28,040
Speaker 4: that heart rates synchronize, we see the breathing rate synchronized.

1026
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 4: But we can also move to codisregulation. And we've just

1027
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:35,480
Speaker 4: been talking in one of our communities about in health practitioners,

1028
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 4: you'll see it as the fixer, the leaning in, talking talking, talking, talking,

1029
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 4: not letting anybody else say anything, the hurrying their patients through.

1030
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 4: And this is all the things that you hear from

1031
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 4: people when they say, oh, I went and saw them

1032
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:53,760
Speaker 4: and they didn't listen. They didn't you know. So it's

1033
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:58,600
Speaker 4: really interesting. Yes, there is a feedback loop that we

1034
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:02,720
Speaker 4: enter into with our the people, and this is like

1035
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:05,840
Speaker 4: an art and it's a practice. We never get to

1036
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:09,760
Speaker 4: the end, but to learn how can I keep working

1037
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 4: on staying regulated in the heat of the moment and

1038
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:14,640
Speaker 4: support others That can be a big challenge.

1039
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 3: You mentioned a few physical things through our conversation, but

1040
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 3: one thing we haven't pun intended, one thing we haven't.

1041
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:21,160
Speaker 2: Touched on is touch.

1042
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 3: Yes, so there's physical, there's postural, there's thinking about and

1043
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 3: just noticing an awareness, But what role can you know

1044
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:32,200
Speaker 3: by yourself what role and what are some things we

1045
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:37,200
Speaker 3: can do using our own skin, touching ourselves to assist

1046
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:38,760
Speaker 3: us in a moment. And we might need to get

1047
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:41,520
Speaker 3: a little more kind of ground. These work grounded, but

1048
00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:42,400
Speaker 3: a little more stable.

1049
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 4: You know. We don't talk enough about touch with nervous

1050
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 4: system health, I don't think, but we can think about

1051
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:53,240
Speaker 4: that touch to using our skin as a really good

1052
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:56,919
Speaker 4: sensory feedback to the brain. And so what I see

1053
00:58:56,960 --> 00:59:00,640
Speaker 4: in people who have had traumatic stress, particularly only people

1054
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 4: who went through an incident, and then let's say they

1055
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:06,240
Speaker 4: froze at the time, and they're like, why didn't I

1056
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 4: say something? Why didn't I stand up for myself? I'm so,

1057
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:13,160
Speaker 4: you know, but freeze is the most common response to

1058
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:17,000
Speaker 4: a traumatic event, and it's what keeps us safe. So

1059
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:21,160
Speaker 4: when we have that feeling of shame, we need a

1060
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 4: way to be with those sensations, those bodily signals that

1061
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:33,000
Speaker 4: are actually bringing a sense of atuvement, kindness, acceptance. Some

1062
00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 4: might call it self compassion. And what's interesting is people

1063
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:41,640
Speaker 4: who struggle with self compassion are more likely to experience

1064
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:47,120
Speaker 4: anxiety and depression. And so when we use touch, whether

1065
00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 4: we think about this as like a hand on the

1066
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 4: hand on the cheek, and it's actually a way we

1067
00:59:54,320 --> 01:00:00,160
Speaker 4: can contain something that feels so strong. That can be

1068
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 4: an incredible way to soothe ourselves by bringing on the

1069
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:09,640
Speaker 4: other hand, like a strong pressure to the joints, like

1070
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 4: squeezing through the shoulders and saying, okay, this is my shoulders,

1071
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:16,680
Speaker 4: these are my shoulders. For people who dissociate or disconnect

1072
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,800
Speaker 4: from their body, that can be a really great way

1073
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 4: to stop themselves moving down into shut down because it's

1074
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:27,120
Speaker 4: like what I was saying before, we turn the signals

1075
01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:29,440
Speaker 4: from the body back up, like the volume back up

1076
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:31,920
Speaker 4: on where the body is, and that can shift us

1077
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:35,680
Speaker 4: out of the shutdown stage. And one of the things

1078
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 4: I love so for people who have the sensitization or

1079
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:44,160
Speaker 4: central sensitization where there's a lot of pain, and this

1080
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:49,200
Speaker 4: has been shown in fibromyalgia, but other persistent pain conditions,

1081
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 4: the part of the brain that actually maps where our

1082
01:00:54,720 --> 01:01:00,960
Speaker 4: body is. We know with sensitization it can get smudged,

1083
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:03,960
Speaker 4: so it's not as clear. Now if you think about

1084
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:09,240
Speaker 4: someone who who's a pianist or a guitar player, the

1085
01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:13,960
Speaker 4: representation of their hands in their brain can actually be

1086
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 4: larger because they have they've trained. That's an example of neuroplasticity.

1087
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:23,000
Speaker 4: And so what we sometimes see is like with phantom

1088
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:27,439
Speaker 4: limb pain, the leg's gone, but they're still pain there

1089
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:31,200
Speaker 4: and it can be the amplification of the brain trying

1090
01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:34,840
Speaker 4: to find that sensory or where the leg is. So

1091
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:38,959
Speaker 4: there's an activation in that sensory cortex. And so one

1092
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:43,400
Speaker 4: thing we'd touch is if we were to touch on

1093
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:46,320
Speaker 4: someone's lower back who had lower back pain, then we

1094
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:48,840
Speaker 4: use two fingers and we say, am I touching you

1095
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:53,240
Speaker 4: with two fingers or one? It's helping them work out

1096
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:57,400
Speaker 4: what that discrimination difference is between two fingers or one.

1097
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:02,280
Speaker 4: That sharpens the map in their It calms down the

1098
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:06,480
Speaker 4: immune system, that calms down the activation in the brain,

1099
01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:09,440
Speaker 4: and that can decrease pain. I also love to do

1100
01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:12,600
Speaker 4: it with like you touch someone on their back and

1101
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:15,320
Speaker 4: you say where am I touching you? And they lay

1102
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:18,720
Speaker 4: on their belly with like a picture underneath their face

1103
01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 4: and it's numbered and so you make that more accurate.

1104
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:26,760
Speaker 4: And that's been shown to work really well for that

1105
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:29,480
Speaker 4: central sensitization. So touch is amazing.

1106
01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 3: As you mentioned, the people have lost a limb one

1107
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:38,160
Speaker 3: of the people we talked to in our film. She

1108
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:40,040
Speaker 3: was not standing in her kitchen and she goes, well,

1109
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:43,240
Speaker 3: right down my foot, Titchy, look down and there's no

1110
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:45,600
Speaker 3: thought choose a thing called mirror box.

1111
01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:49,560
Speaker 4: Yes, exactly, so amazing.

1112
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 3: Astoundingly discovered after I think World War One, on the

1113
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:55,640
Speaker 3: boar war or something like. It's just extraordinary whatever brains

1114
01:02:55,680 --> 01:02:57,000
Speaker 3: can do. And just the last thing I would say

1115
01:02:57,000 --> 01:02:59,680
Speaker 3: on that on the touch and the pressure pretty much

1116
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:05,800
Speaker 3: every night, right before I read Wolfy stories, he I'm

1117
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:07,720
Speaker 3: going to tell you what begs me, but he's very

1118
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:12,160
Speaker 3: insistent that I squish him. Yes, kids, squish him before bed.

1119
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 3: It gets under his covers and he lies himself flat

1120
01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:17,400
Speaker 3: and I lie on him and I may make a

1121
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:20,320
Speaker 3: game and I pretend to fall asleep, but he just mate.

1122
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 3: It almost turns his little bright like I wish there

1123
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:25,560
Speaker 3: was someone humongous that could come and squish me.

1124
01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:28,640
Speaker 2: Yes, pretty cool.

1125
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:31,960
Speaker 4: It's so good kid, Like, you know, to know where

1126
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:36,320
Speaker 4: your body is is so grounding and the brain goes, okay,

1127
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 4: got you. And that's that's something we definitely don't talk

1128
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:44,040
Speaker 4: enough about in the world of nervous system dysregulation. You know,

1129
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:47,200
Speaker 4: everyone's so focused on the breast, so focused on like

1130
01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:49,800
Speaker 4: the different ways that we can come down, but touch

1131
01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:53,520
Speaker 4: is one of the pressure and those sensory systems are

1132
01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:55,040
Speaker 4: really the fastest gateway.

1133
01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:57,200
Speaker 3: It's no accident. You get a good night's sleep in

1134
01:03:57,200 --> 01:03:59,560
Speaker 3: a hammock, whether on a sheep, whether on a ship

1135
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:05,160
Speaker 3: or not. The feeling of being crazy old man, it's

1136
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:08,440
Speaker 3: the best. I'm very excited that you are doing the

1137
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:12,520
Speaker 3: work you're doing. I think it's a great time for

1138
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:15,439
Speaker 3: you to be doing it because you know, the work

1139
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:17,280
Speaker 3: that I've been doing in this area, because we shot

1140
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:18,440
Speaker 3: this film like nearly two years ago.

1141
01:04:18,480 --> 01:04:19,800
Speaker 2: Now, the people I've.

1142
01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:23,360
Speaker 3: Been speaking with and there's a big shift towards this

1143
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:27,000
Speaker 3: crossover space that we've been discussing today, which ultimately I'm

1144
01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:29,160
Speaker 3: thrilled for because it means that a lot more people

1145
01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:32,360
Speaker 3: have a lot more relief and have better quality relationships

1146
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:34,640
Speaker 3: with the people around them, which is ultimately what it is.

1147
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:36,640
Speaker 2: You know, it's not about this hurts.

1148
01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:39,360
Speaker 3: It's like, ah, I keep having fights with my partner

1149
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:41,240
Speaker 3: because I'm just cranky all the time.

1150
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:43,560
Speaker 2: And that's what was problem with me. But that's you know,

1151
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:46,560
Speaker 2: also also what it is. You're great, Thanks for taking

1152
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:47,439
Speaker 2: the time talk to me today.

1153
01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:48,720
Speaker 4: Thank you, wesir, I loved it.

1154
01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:52,600
Speaker 1: That was Jessica Maguire. The book is called The Nervous.

1155
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:56,680
Speaker 3: System Reset, Get around It. It's a fantastic read and

1156
01:04:56,720 --> 01:04:59,800
Speaker 3: well well worth it. Please do if this episode was

1157
01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:01,440
Speaker 3: used well to you, please share it with somebody. That's

1158
01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:03,080
Speaker 3: where you can support the show without giving us any

1159
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:05,000
Speaker 3: money at all. You can share it and like and comment,

1160
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:08,560
Speaker 3: subscribe and follow and repost and whatever you need to do.

1161
01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:11,560
Speaker 3: Please do all of those things that really really helps us.

1162
01:05:11,880 --> 01:05:13,640
Speaker 3: Also in the show notes, that's where you can find

1163
01:05:13,680 --> 01:05:16,280
Speaker 3: the links the Story Club YouTube page and tickets for

1164
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:18,440
Speaker 3: the next Story Club shows. Both my books So What

1165
01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:20,280
Speaker 3: Now What and Back after the Break. You can buy

1166
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:22,600
Speaker 3: those through the links in the show notes. And look,

1167
01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:23,920
Speaker 3: while you've got your phone in your hand, take a

1168
01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:25,720
Speaker 3: photo of what you're looking at right now, send it

1169
01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:25,960
Speaker 3: to me.

1170
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:27,720
Speaker 1: I love seeing where you listen.

1171
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:27,919
Speaker 2: To the show.

1172
01:05:28,160 --> 01:05:32,080
Speaker 1: Don't do it while you're driving, obviously, but yeah, satisfied

1173
01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:34,760
Speaker 1: it when you pull over. All right, Thanks for listening.

1174
01:05:34,760 --> 01:05:39,440
Speaker 1: See you on Monday.