WEBVTT - #136: Can Australian Rugby Union Be Saved? An In-Depth Analysis with Stephen Hoiles 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.360 Hi, Mike Boris, and this is straight talk. Is it 0:00:02.400 --> 0:00:05.680 an exextential threat to rugby union? Will it last? 0:00:06.040 --> 0:00:08.880 The fear is that we don't get it right. That's 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:09.760 the scary thing about this. 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:11.080 Stevie Hall's worn straight talk. 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:11.559 Mate. 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:13.720 I want to talk to you about a state of 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:16.200 rugby union and you're a coach. You were also a 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:18.680 player at the highest level, so you can actually speak 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:19.439 expertly on this. 0:00:19.760 --> 0:00:21.959 It isn't going great here in Australia at the professional level. 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:24.079 Other levels of the game are great. All we see 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:26.479 on TV is really super rugby and Test footy and 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:28.600 super rugby is the big problem. 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:31.680 What would you do in terms of super rugby? 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:33.440 Yeah, there's a big part of me that thinks it's 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:36.199 probably run its rays, to be honest, put them in 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:38.080 this term. So there's five teams at the moment with 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:40.839 a five million dollar salary cap each versus sixteen and 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:43.519 r old teams with thirty million dollar salary cap. How 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:46.159 are you going to compete on that front? That is 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:48.120 probably half the reason why a lot of league fans 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:50.400 hate rugby at the moment because our former chairman was 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:53.800 out there disrespecting the intelligence of another code like I 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:56.040 just thought that was poor taste and rugby has never 0:00:56.080 --> 0:00:56.560 been about that. 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:00.680 Stevie Hall's warning, straight talk mate. Thanks Mark, Thanks well, 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:03.200 I haven't seen you since. I know you're a the 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:06.080 early forties. Now. I haven't seen you since about probably 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:08.640 fifteen or sixteen around that territory when you were playing 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:12.560 for Istramic back in the day, the East Rambick Repside. 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:13.679 But you're a Ramdwick boy. 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:17.160 We just we merged our rep teams that weekend was 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:19.640 on recently. You know. Yeah, my sons at that age 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:21.560 at the moment. Actually your son or one of my 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:24.679 kids is really thirteen. He didn't make that Raundmick sit unfortunately, 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:26.360 but yeah, that he's going through the same age when 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:27.160 I last met you. 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:30.560 Yeah, and I sort of I can't remember. You're a 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:32.600 back row. I think your back row, yeah yeah, yeah, 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:37.120 you've got big tall, much taller than you were there. Yeah. 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:40.600 When I was at school thirteen to sixteen, he's seventy 0:01:40.680 --> 0:01:43.080 year twelve. I wasn't allowed to play in the backs 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:44.360 in the forward. Sorry, I had to play in the 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:46.560 backs at Waverley. I was too short, So I got 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:48.520 those years. Have been half back in five eight, which 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:50.280 then helped me later in life when I had my 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:50.880 growth spurts. 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:55.920 So you're you was Trent Language. Was he your territory or. 0:01:56.120 --> 0:01:58.080 A few years older old? Yeah? Changing was couples old 0:01:58.120 --> 0:01:59.960 and I was in the surf club and training with Changing, 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:00.800 so I know him well. 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:05.400 And you're you come from Rugby Union territory and your 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:06.520 dad played footy. 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:06.840 Yeah. 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:08.240 Have you always been Ramwick? 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:13.520 Yeah? Heverage so dad Samaruba boy and I grew up 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:16.280 at Ramwick. Dad won a few first grade premierships at 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:18.639 the center. He finished quite early, by the age of 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:21.400 twenty six. He was finished because he was managing the 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:24.560 airport for customs. But then as I grew up, I 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:28.400 was a couodie won bat for ten years whilst playing 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:31.480 league league on a Sunday, Rugby on a Saturday, but 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:33.239 mum worked at the New South. I was rugby league 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:34.639 the whole way. I was from about the age of 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:36.680 five to fifteen, and that was I saw you, Johnny 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:38.799 qualen of you and that was sort of the era 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:41.600 that I grew up in. I was halftime entertainment at 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:44.560 every second Grand Final and got tickets to all the 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:47.919 big games. So I'm a Tiger's tragic. I don't know how. 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:49.720 I actually do know. I got given a number one 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:51.520 jersey when I was a kid, Austraian number one. That 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:55.040 was Gary Jack, my map of Souse, and he's been 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:57.760 a wavery boy. But I was a Tiger's tragic and 0:02:58.040 --> 0:02:59.720 I did league in union all the way through and 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:02.720 then I got to fifteen. It was a bit it 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:04.799 was had to sort of pick one and I think 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:07.400 I just suited rugby. The game flowed a little bit more. 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:08.800 In those days. 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:11.919 Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it flowed lots to the point where 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:13.359 I I could read the game a little bit better 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:14.919 in rugby and that was probably what helped me. I 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:16.560 didn't really have a position in the league. I was 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:19.760 a hooker, halfback lock. We was in rugby. I got 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:21.880 to be a flanker and that was that hybrid position. 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:24.359 And back then flankers just used to chase the ball. 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:26.560 It's different now because of the way the modern day is, 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:29.080 but it did both and still enjoy both. 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:32.400 So I wouldn't mind going back to that time, just 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:35.800 in terms of style, so and just to talk about 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:38.960 the way the world's changed. And I was worth explaining 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:41.880 a lot of rugby league kids if they went to 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:44.920 private schools, particularly around the East Suburbs areas and Low 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:49.120 and ll Sure they played league on Sundays and union 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:54.160 on Saturdays sometimes Friday night, yeah, basically, and the schools 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:57.800 and they played rugby for their school on the Saturday 0:03:57.840 --> 0:03:59.640 went and played you were at Waverley went and played 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:02.080 in the CIS and other kids playing the GPS, et cetera, 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:05.640 all the different competitions, and then you were probably played 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:09.440 club rugby as well, and that could have been on 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:13.520 a Friday night or during the week. So ordinarily you'd 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:16.320 be training nearly every night of the week for one 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:19.040 or the other. You'd be playing club rugby, which was 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:21.720 a short season, but then there was rep rugby, and 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:23.560 then you were playing school rugby, which is sort of 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:25.599 a short seasons like six games or something like that, 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:29.120 and then you're playing rugby league on the Sunday. Even then, 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:33.760 there was a fair bit of tension between what schools 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:36.560 expected from you in terms of playing rugby and what 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:39.520 rugby league expected from you in terms of playing rugby 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:42.400 in particular and in particular training, and there's a lot 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:45.200 of pressure on the kids give up rugby league. Do 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:45.800 you remember that? 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:48.120 I do remember, and essentially like when I was in 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:50.159 year twelve, I played in the first and year twelve 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:52.840 I couldn't play league in the holidays. I'd to sneak 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:54.080 off a couple of games for the one bats. I 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:56.680 didn't want wavery to find out because there was a 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:57.600 strict where you couldn't. 0:04:57.680 --> 0:04:59.760 Why, Ah, what do you think that's about. 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:02.400 I think it's ConTroll thing, to be honest, it's gone 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:04.280 back that to be fair. Now, I now know that 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:07.040 schools are encouraging kids to go and play club rugby 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:07.719 and league. 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:09.040 That's because they teaching about to tackle. 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:12.080 That's right, Like there are benefits of doing both, absolutely so. 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:15.159 And you see the kids that around fourteen fifteen, and 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:17.400 I see now my son's thirteen. I see the kids 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:20.839 that are that are better in almost every aspect of 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:23.400 the game. They're the ones that are playing league union, 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:25.800 some of them are even playing AFL. I think being 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:29.479 able to being restricted to who you play for and 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:31.080 what you do outside of your school hours, I don't think 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:32.040 that's a healthy thing for kids. 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:34.840 Right now, you're a coach and you're coaching around wick 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:39.320 and I just wanted to lay that down as a 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:41.520 foundation straight up, because I want to talk to you 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:44.280 about rugby union and the state of rugby union and 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:48.159 being a coach. You can actually speak expertally on this 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:51.640 as not just because you were also a player rugby 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:56.080 union player at the highest level, but in terms of coaching. 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:57.719 I want to talk to you about coaching and where 0:05:57.720 --> 0:06:01.400 the rugby union game's gone. I can say to you honestly, 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:05.120 back in the early eighties, I was an avid fan 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:08.599 of rugby union as well as rugby league. In fact, 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:11.760 I sponsored the rugby union side for a number of years, 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:14.000 which that was my very first sponsorship but ever did 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:17.800 But then it changed. Rugby unions changed me and I 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:22.159 I have real interest in watching rugby game of rage 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:25.120 union today, not just because I'm a Roagay league fans, 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:27.760 but the game's changed. It has and I want to 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:29.840 go back and ask you if you could go back 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:32.200 to your your rugby union days when you're playing, when 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:36.160 you're a kid playing you know, from Ramwick, et cetera, 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:40.200 and or playing for Waverley whoever it was, But could 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:43.240 you explain to me what the game was like then? 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:45.800 And what I mean by that is in terms of flow, 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:50.520 lack of interruptions, less rules, a lot of ball playing, 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:53.520 not just about kicking, et cetera. Just give us a 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:55.080 picture of what it was like when you fell in 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:55.479 love with it. 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:58.240 Yeah, I grew up watching the you know, the great 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:00.320 teams of Ramwick in the eighties and nineties. So that's 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:04.719 what I learned exactly, like the Pointer Evens, the campez Is, 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:07.640 the Knoxes, the names just go on and on, honestly, 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:12.760 So they had the game, had a way of trying 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:14.680 to keep the ball off the ground. It was about 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:19.000 continuity of play that what does that mean? You'd be 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:21.080 able to run and stand and set up them all 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:23.440 and keep playing. Now you see the ball gat now 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:25.760 I reckon. The biggest difference is it's you run at 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:27.880 faces now you used to run at spaces, And there's 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:30.720 a big difference. Like tacklings evolved. So we were taught 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:32.920 as kids as a back rower chase the ball just 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:34.800 be two or three meters behind the ball the whole time. 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:38.960 Now because defense is improved and people are better at 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:41.040 still in the football as in poach like they think 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:43.840 of George Smith, Phil Ward, David Pocock in their peak. 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:47.360 If they if someone was isolated at any stage of 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:49.600 the game, a good on baller would get over the 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:51.400 ball and steal it or get a penalty, so that 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:54.840 would be most likely a stoppage. So players evolved to 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:56.560 become really good over the ball. And I have this 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:59.200 argument with my dad constantly about why the game has 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:02.280 so much kicking if you don't kick the ball. So 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:04.040 if you run the ball at the wrong part of 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:06.040 the field or you're not you don't have enough support 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:08.720 play around you. Just try and put in a league term. 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:10.520 If you run and you're not near your dummy half 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:12.360 and you get tackled not near you dumby half, you 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:13.040 lose the ball. 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:15.440 So you've got to be because they have better skills 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:16.680 are taking away offensively. 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:19.480 People are just better. It used to be like George 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:21.360 Smith changed the game because he was number seven. He 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:23.160 was an on baller, and then all of a sudden 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:24.400 people were like, well, it doesn't have to be just 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:26.760 George Smith. Hookers become on ballers. 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:27.920 What's on balling right? 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:29.880 Getting over the ball? Still in the football, getting that 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:32.320 sort of jack they call it a jackal or a 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:35.520 pill for position, And it was typically twenty years ago, 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:37.400 it was probably one player in the field was good 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:40.199 on the ball. Now there's ten to twelve. If you're 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:41.959 not good on the ball and you can't slop the 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:44.439 rock where you can't steal the ball, you get picked. 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:48.520 So the game is evolve massively on that front. But 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:52.600 there's also the fear of a player losing the ball. 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:56.280 If in doubt, players will now run to someone and 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:59.520 go on reset and try and get a new phase, another. 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:01.040 Arch whereas they go to ground, they. 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:03.600 Go to ground and that's right, they place it back 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:05.960 And as I said, as a back rower, I just 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:08.360 used to chase the ball, and now a lot of 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:11.160 background as a coach to be you know, you go 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:12.960 from this line out and you stay on this side 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:14.600 of the field. We want one background on this side, 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:16.520 we want one on the other, and we want one 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:18.040 in the middle. So you kind of spread out a 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:20.840 little bit more in they call it shape in shape 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:23.360 and pods and I'm probably talking another language too, but 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:28.320 to become way more structured, and I think the scrums 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:30.640 are really slow part of the game at the moment. 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:32.160 I think back to the years you watched it. It 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:33.920 was and you don't have to go and watch footage. 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:36.800 Whistles blown. Eight forwards get up and they'se going back 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:40.120 a scrumb and it's almost if the contest happens once 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:42.559 the ball, once they've hit their shoulders. And that used 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:44.200 to take ten to twenty seconds to get that set. 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:48.040 We're taking ninety seconds to get a scrum set now 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:49.080 and then there's resets. 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:52.160 Was that is it more about safety? 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:55.520 Yeah, they made the gap really big. About my era 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:57.199 of the gap was about a meter, and that was 0:09:57.920 --> 0:10:00.200 there's like two cars crashing into the meter, a lot 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:02.720 of damage getting under players, a lot of sort of 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:08.880 retirement from spine injuries and not necessarily like disability injuries, 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:10.880 but just more wear and tear. So they tried to 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:13.439 sort of shorten the gap, but it still takes a 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:15.760 long time. It's a bit too technical to make it 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:16.280 too quick. 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:18.200 Shorten the gap in terms of before they engage. 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:19.640 Yeah, so they want their gap to be like they 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:21.080 used to be like that. Then they brought it to 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:23.040 there and you go back to the eighties, the gap 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:24.640 was sort of like that far away. 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:27.920 So that's interesting. So that that's actually something that the 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:30.600 I don't know whoever it is the referee or whoever 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:34.319 controls the play safety, they've actually said to the referees, 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:38.480 you don't let them engage or get ready to engage 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:41.160 until they're close enough that they're not going to cause 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:43.800 effectively too much damage to each other. Because when you 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:47.679 think about it, there's probably a ton wait close enough. 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:51.120 Honestly, on most packs are just under a ton. International 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:53.319 packs about nine undred yos, and they sort of. 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:57.480 Train to have as much force as possible and things 0:10:57.480 --> 0:10:59.960 can go wrong so quickly. Yeah, so that's a place. 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:03.920 Yeah's play safety, but it's I haven't solved it, to 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:06.280 be fair like, You've got to look back at what 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:08.680 has worked in the past. And and I'm the same 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:11.560 as you. I'll turn on a game and I'll get 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:13.480 really frustrated. You can kill a game of rugby and fight. 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:15.040 You can lose four to five minutes. At the end 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:17.160 of a game, you think about it, your side has 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:20.840 just gone up by three points the opposition. In rugby league, 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:23.600 that's probably what two sets of each five minutes. You 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:25.320 know you're going to have a crack. In rugby, you 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:28.360 can manipulate the laws or how they're interpreted to kill 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:30.720 a clock, and that's that's the disappointing aspect of the game. 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:34.840 So if when you were playing, what is it about? 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:38.880 I soon remember the term back in the eighties running rugby. 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:43.320 That's sort of what's I found that attractive. You know, 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:45.920 get the campezes and all, they're all the wingers to 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:48.320 get the ball, actually get the ball. They weren't running, 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:50.120 they weren't running to chase a kick or something, but 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:51.320 that was actually getting out of them. 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:53.960 There was more space for them because if you go 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:56.839 back again look at some footage, one ruck would be 0:11:57.200 --> 0:11:59.920 at the moment. It's about how you can win your 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:02.080 u with the least amount of numbers as possible. So 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:05.520 you want the ball carrier plus two, and you go 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:07.240 back and look at footage in the nineties, it's ball 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:09.520 carry plus four, one, two, three, maybe a couple more 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:10.880 forgeress get out of the way. They get out of 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:13.160 the way, so there was more space out wider. But 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:15.720 now those people that just come through to get out 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:17.320 of the way, they're not there. They're out in the 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:19.240 same place that the centers or the wingers want to be. 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:21.520 So there's lots of lots of defensive coverage. 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.080 Yeah. Yeah, Like people say, one of the things that 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:26.600 could solve rugby's problems, you could drop it to third end. 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:30.679 You honestly could. Yeah, And but but people that for 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:32.680 whatever reason, that's too much like rugby league, we can't 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:35.800 consider it, or we widen the fields. It's probably a 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:38.440 lot difficult to widen fields all around the world. Yeah, 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:41.480 probably easy to take. But the it's never been considered 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:43.400 because I think they would feel it's jumping into rugby 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:44.079 league territory. 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:48.000 Yeah, because it's it's but it's a it's a big game, 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:50.720 a lot of followers globally I'm talking about and but 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:54.880 it's losing followers and its losing therefore therefore losing attractiveness 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:57.960 in terms of revenue and sportships, and therefore here. 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:01.280 In particular here in here in his on a Yeah, 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:04.480 globally it's going great, like World Cups are fantastic women's 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:06.560 like there's so many aspects of the game that is 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:10.960 really healthy. But you read Australian media in news Court, 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:14.400 Fox Sports used to have the game. Since they've lost 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:16.200 it then they're not on the stand now that's on 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:20.240 stand now. But it's not a positive media. It's not 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:22.480 positive in the media at the moment rugby but it 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:25.120 isn't going great here in Australia at the professional level. 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:26.960 Other levels of the game are great, but what we 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:29.440 see on TV. All we see on TV is really 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:32.240 super rugby and Test footy, and super rugby is probably 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:34.520 the big one that's third in US. Test footy will 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:37.320 always be healthy. But the Wallabies haven't been successful, so 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:40.480 we're sort of seen and we're reacting to their performance 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:42.640 of late. That's why the game is viewed as if 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:44.720 it's not that healthier because the Wallabies aren't going well. 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:46.200 Super rugby is the big problem. 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:49.040 Why would you say that the Wallabies aren't going well? I mean, 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:51.920 I mean, let's just I mean, is it because of 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:53.840 ten years ago? The kids who are growing up and 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:58.080 who have now become Wallabies, they have not been done 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:00.000 of the right skills or what's the case. 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:04.400 No, like the international markets become very competitive, Like during 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:07.240 my playing era, you could have got to Europe at 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:08.840 the start your career, a couple of people going to 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:11.360 France and a few people were starting to enter the 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:16.360 Japanese league. Now like those markets are huge USA. He's 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:20.160 got competitions, so that's not the global market is one 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:22.560 of the reasons I would say, And again this is 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:25.560 really polarizing because we've just cut a team as in 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:28.560 Melbourne Rebels, we just not had went broke. They went 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:30.920 broke and they've been broke. They've never been a financially 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:34.480 successful model. So the game has been pouring money into 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:37.200 and it's not just hurt Melbourne's hurting New South Wales. 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:39.400 It's hurt the Brumbies, It's hurt everyone, and it's hurt 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:42.960 Perth like person. I got Twiggy Forest there, who's obviously 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:46.800 a very successful backer of the side. So we've never 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:50.800 had the talent to sustain five elites to rugby teams. 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:53.520 And when I think we brought in Melbourne because it 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:55.560 was private money, it was Harold Mitchell, and I think 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:57.960 the game view past a couple years ago, but down 0:14:57.960 --> 0:14:59.680 he held the license for a couple of years. Once 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:01.840 he realized it wasn't working, he handed the license back 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:04.120 over to Rugby Australia and they've been propping up the 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:06.080 Rebels for a long long time. I just don't think 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:09.400 we've had the talent at that elite level for five teams. 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:12.040 When you think put it in this terms, there's five 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:14.520 teams at the moment with a five moon dollar salary 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:18.000 cap each versus sixteen RL teams with thirty moon dollar 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:19.880 salary cap. How are you going to compete on that front. 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:21.960 Well, why isn't they don't have the time, because is 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:26.160 it because the pool of talent where the kids grow 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:29.680 up in playing footy like is so still restricted to 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:30.560 private schools. 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:33.240 I think that I think the talent like, you've got 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:35.920 kids at the schools that I went to, Waverly, THEES, 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:41.080 the GPS, there's there's probably a dozen AFL players now 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:44.560 that have come from Sales and GPS as non AFL players. 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:47.320 They've gone and got the best locks. The kids that 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:48.760 are going to be one ninety one to ninety five 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:51.640 centimeters AFL teams have gone out. They've just got great 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:56.600 recruitment tools. So all these young players, Like it's hard 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.080 to get good tour players, a lot of them playing AFL, 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:02.000 We've got enough good players for a really good club 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:04.440 competition and that's I think club foot is excellent. It's 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:07.680 healthy and it's thriving. But just at super rugby level, 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:11.560 the five teams haven't been performing enough against the Kiwi 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:14.480 teams and it definitely hasn't helped the Wallaby performance. You 0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:18.000 can't you can't argue that one. In the last the 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:20.640 performance over the last ten years since we went from 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:23.520 three teams it was Queensland, New South Wales and the 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:25.680 Brumbies and then we went to Perth and then we 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:28.080 rushed to Melbourne. A couple of these after Perth, and 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:30.960 that was when you notice the player drain. It was 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:34.760 probably it was probably easy for players to get contracts 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:38.120 and they weren't going through that club system and getting 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:41.200 the twenty thirty forty games of club footy where they're 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:43.440 getting bashed up by a thirty year old, you know, whiley' 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:46.280 getting hardened by playing second grade and third grade. A 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:49.240 lot of kids were coming out of schools and because 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:51.760 of the competition the offers from league, it was I've 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:53.680 got an offer from South I've gone off from Roosters 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:55.880 or Western forth. So I'm going to make a big offer. 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:57.840 I'm going to stay in rugby and they'll get into 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:01.200 Super Rugby probably a little bit quicker than it previously. 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:04.200 And because they weren't hardened enough or at least experienced enough, 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:05.560 I think so to play that level. 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:09.000 Yeah, but then they weren't playing enough games. Super rugby 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:11.280 is a sixteen game season and they weren't all getting 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:13.520 sent back to play club footy and you go from 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:17.160 why not, I don't know academies programs, all that sort 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:20.080 of off season tours and all that sort of stuff 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:23.040 and players being relocated to different parts of the country. 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:26.000 So yeah, I think that's a big reason. Like the 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:29.520 number of games you mentioned before, like forty game season 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:31.400 for a kid is what you should be doing. Yeah, 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:35.280 and I reckon at professional level you could go and 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:38.159