1 00:00:10,940 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to The Australian's Money Puzzle Podcast. I'm 2 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,550 Speaker 1: James Kirby, Wealth Editor at The Australian. Hey, welcome aboard, everybody. 3 00:00:18,460 --> 00:00:21,610 Speaker 1: In every episode, we cover listener questions. And I have 4 00:00:21,630 --> 00:00:25,169 Speaker 1: to say, today's batch of questions is really exceptional. And 5 00:00:25,230 --> 00:00:27,729 Speaker 1: I just want to say thanks to everybody involved. I 6 00:00:27,750 --> 00:00:31,730 Speaker 1: get more ideas for the show and what to do 7 00:00:31,770 --> 00:00:33,570 Speaker 1: on the show and have on the show from your 8 00:00:33,729 --> 00:00:37,570 Speaker 1: questions and your comments, complaints, observations than anything else. So 9 00:00:37,590 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 1: keep them rolling. Later on, we'll hear from a listener, 10 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: for instance, who lives overseas and wants to come back 11 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:47,220 Speaker 1: to Australia. We've got an investor in Perth who's worried 12 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: that the eastern staters are taking over. I have a 13 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,700 Speaker 1: question from Robert who says his bank is trying to 14 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:57,330 Speaker 1: pull a fast one, basically, because he signed on for 15 00:00:57,370 --> 00:01:00,290 Speaker 1: a mortgage at a rate. And when it came to 16 00:01:00,330 --> 00:01:03,010 Speaker 1: signing the papers, the rate was lower. I've experienced that. 17 00:01:03,210 --> 00:01:05,980 Speaker 1: I'm really interested to pick up on that question. And 18 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:07,900 Speaker 1: keep in mind, folks, if we can do something for you, 19 00:01:07,940 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: let us know. You'd be surprised how quickly an organisation 20 00:01:11,830 --> 00:01:15,750 Speaker 1: responds when they get a call from a show like ours. OK, 21 00:01:15,910 --> 00:01:19,410 Speaker 1: now today, I think we need an advisor here to 22 00:01:19,430 --> 00:01:22,430 Speaker 1: talk about issues in property and many of your questions. 23 00:01:22,830 --> 00:01:26,140 Speaker 1: Someone who's across property and is also across advice. Friend 24 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:28,759 Speaker 1: of the show, a regular on the show. It's Bruce Bramall. 25 00:01:29,540 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: How are you, Bruce? 26 00:01:31,300 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 2: Not too bad. Thanks, James. Thanks for bringing me back. 27 00:01:34,060 --> 00:01:36,339 Speaker 1: Lovely to have you back. Always good to have you on. 28 00:01:36,740 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: I know that we would be of a similar vintage 29 00:01:39,140 --> 00:01:41,230 Speaker 1: and we might have, I don't know what age your 30 00:01:41,270 --> 00:01:43,350 Speaker 1: guys are, but mine are now of the age where 31 00:01:43,370 --> 00:01:47,290 Speaker 1: they're starting. It's just starting. To look around and be 32 00:01:47,350 --> 00:01:51,010 Speaker 1: aware of the mountain they have to climb to get 33 00:01:51,030 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: into property in any way, but obviously, particularly as a 34 00:01:54,260 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: home buyer. And one of the things apparently that they're 35 00:01:58,020 --> 00:02:01,030 Speaker 1: all saying to each other, if you don't mind, is that, 36 00:02:01,170 --> 00:02:03,450 Speaker 1: you know, the prices are just tipping along at the 37 00:02:03,490 --> 00:02:06,050 Speaker 1: moment very much at a sort of average rates. In 38 00:02:06,090 --> 00:02:08,869 Speaker 1: some parts, they're quite slow. And there's a sense that 39 00:02:09,030 --> 00:02:13,370 Speaker 1: you don't have to move now. There's also a sense 40 00:02:13,410 --> 00:02:16,370 Speaker 1: of sort of fatalism. And this is really something that 41 00:02:16,490 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: is on the cards, I think. And I see it 42 00:02:19,740 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: reported and I see it anecdotally, this sense of fatalism 43 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:29,420 Speaker 1: with younger investors. Where they're saying, look, it's just out 44 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,020 Speaker 1: of my, I'm never going to be able to afford 45 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: to buy a house. And so I'm going to go 46 00:02:34,500 --> 00:02:36,830 Speaker 1: to Japan for two weeks and ski, something like that. 47 00:02:37,090 --> 00:02:39,870 Speaker 1: So we have this attitude that it's just become so hard. 48 00:02:40,169 --> 00:02:43,750 Speaker 1: It's too hard. So forget it. Do you come upon that? 49 00:02:43,889 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: And what would you say to someone who said that 50 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:46,859 Speaker 1: to you? 51 00:02:50,580 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 3: I guess I don't see as much of it from 52 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 3: a client perspective. Talking to people, reading the media and 53 00:02:55,820 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 3: generally being involved. 54 00:02:56,620 --> 00:02:58,419 Speaker 2: My kids are a bit younger. They're still in high school. 55 00:02:58,480 --> 00:02:59,780 Speaker 2: There's still a little way off from them. 56 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:03,180 Speaker 3: But we do see clients coming in who often have 57 00:03:03,540 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 3: started on the deposits and might have a reasonable amount 58 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,250 Speaker 3: and want to know what to do with their deposit 59 00:03:09,500 --> 00:03:11,450 Speaker 3: money while they're continuing to save us and how should 60 00:03:11,470 --> 00:03:13,930 Speaker 3: we invest it into cash if you're going to buy 61 00:03:13,950 --> 00:03:16,170 Speaker 3: in the next couple of years. Look, parts of the 62 00:03:16,230 --> 00:03:19,590 Speaker 3: country are quite slow. Victoria in particular, other parts of 63 00:03:19,610 --> 00:03:23,630 Speaker 3: the country are running rampant. 64 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:26,460 Speaker 2: It's a generational thing to a degree. 65 00:03:26,500 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 3: Back in the 60s and 70s when that generation, which 66 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 3: included my parents, were buying a house, they tended to 67 00:03:32,220 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 3: do it quite a lot younger. 68 00:03:33,740 --> 00:03:35,220 Speaker 2: They had kids a lot younger. 69 00:03:35,500 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 3: The average age of having kids, I think, when I 70 00:03:38,700 --> 00:03:40,660 Speaker 3: was born was about 23, 24, around that sort of thing. 71 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 2: And Buying a home was a. 72 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 3: Bit easier, but they're also doing it on one income 73 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 3: as a general rule or say an average of 1.1 74 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 3: incomes per household. Whereas nowadays, the average household buying is 75 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:57,780 Speaker 3: probably 1.8 incomes or there's a lot more single people 76 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:01,260 Speaker 3: buying as well. But yeah, property prices have run hard, 77 00:04:01,300 --> 00:04:05,550 Speaker 3: but like everything, James, it's cyclical. And if people are 78 00:04:05,590 --> 00:04:07,610 Speaker 3: finding it tough now, which is partly about interest rates, 79 00:04:07,630 --> 00:04:10,610 Speaker 3: they've come off very low interest rates and they've risen 80 00:04:10,710 --> 00:04:14,270 Speaker 3: fairly strongly to November last year. You know, it's cyclical. 81 00:04:14,370 --> 00:04:16,830 Speaker 3: And when prices get too high, prices will come back. 82 00:04:17,130 --> 00:04:19,770 Speaker 3: People who are finding it tough have just got to make, 83 00:04:20,190 --> 00:04:24,890 Speaker 3: in my opinion, it's about priorities. And if there are 84 00:04:25,050 --> 00:04:27,930 Speaker 3: kids in their 20s or young adults in their 20s 85 00:04:28,050 --> 00:04:31,789 Speaker 3: or 30s and their primary goal is to buy a home, 86 00:04:32,089 --> 00:04:34,870 Speaker 3: then going off to scan Japan for two weeks is 87 00:04:35,130 --> 00:04:37,210 Speaker 3: going to be reasonably a pretty expensive holiday. 88 00:04:37,510 --> 00:04:47,270 Speaker 1: But logically, if I say to you, I earn $ 100, 000... 89 00:04:42,010 --> 00:04:44,180 Speaker 1: And I want, my house is going to cost nearly 90 00:04:44,210 --> 00:04:49,339 Speaker 1: a million. I can never do it. Isn't that, what 91 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: do you say to that? What do you say to 92 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,900 Speaker 1: the relatively logical observation that on a hundred grand, you 93 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:55,300 Speaker 1: can never buy a million dollar house? 94 00:04:56,260 --> 00:04:56,820 Speaker 2: No, you can't. 95 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 3: You just, you simply can't do it on a hundred 96 00:04:59,420 --> 00:05:01,260 Speaker 3: thousand dollars. But if you've got two people on a 97 00:05:01,300 --> 00:05:03,940 Speaker 3: hundred thousand dollars, then it makes it a lot easier. 98 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,420 Speaker 3: But somebody earning a hundred thousand dollars is unlikely. 99 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:07,349 Speaker 2: To be able to buy. 100 00:05:07,490 --> 00:05:10,529 Speaker 3: It depends on expenses. They've changed the way they do loans. 101 00:05:11,310 --> 00:05:14,100 Speaker 3: And lending and affordability in the last seven or eight years, 102 00:05:14,770 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 3: it makes it a lot more difficult because they do 103 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 3: actually dive deeper into your expenses. What you earn is 104 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,020 Speaker 3: almost less relevant than how much you spend. And they 105 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:24,900 Speaker 3: go and look into it. When you're applying for a loan, 106 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 3: they look at your savings, they look at what you're 107 00:05:26,740 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 3: spending your money on and categorize it to see if. 108 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,700 Speaker 2: The expenses are the same. You used to be able 109 00:05:31,730 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 2: to just go with this minimum. 110 00:05:33,450 --> 00:05:35,330 Speaker 1: You used to go with a sort of a formulaic 111 00:05:35,370 --> 00:05:37,810 Speaker 1: thing that they just had to apply to everybody. 112 00:05:38,130 --> 00:05:41,210 Speaker 3: Yeah, and they didn't really check it too hard. Nowadays 113 00:05:41,250 --> 00:05:43,820 Speaker 3: they do. You can't, you know, the hems have changed. 114 00:05:45,060 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: And what difference did that make, Bruce? 115 00:05:47,460 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 3: An enormous difference because mortgage brokers and the industry, it 116 00:05:50,420 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 3: wasn't just mortgage brokers, the banks were allowing this as well. 117 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:54,550 Speaker 3: You could put through if it was, I'm going back 118 00:05:54,610 --> 00:05:56,570 Speaker 3: a while, but if you had mum, dad and two kids, 119 00:05:56,750 --> 00:05:58,290 Speaker 3: then there was a minimum spend of that and it 120 00:05:58,310 --> 00:05:59,669 Speaker 3: might have been at the time about $ 2, 500. Now it's 121 00:05:59,690 --> 00:06:04,349 Speaker 3: probably $ 3, 000 or $ 3, 500 a month now. But that has 122 00:06:04,410 --> 00:06:07,290 Speaker 3: changed dramatically. They don't just accept this is what the 123 00:06:07,310 --> 00:06:09,550 Speaker 3: minimum that mum, dad and two kids can live on. 124 00:06:09,970 --> 00:06:11,210 Speaker 2: They actually look at your expenses. 125 00:06:11,290 --> 00:06:13,710 Speaker 3: And if you've got some private schooling or you've got 126 00:06:13,930 --> 00:06:17,150 Speaker 3: some bigger expenses in there for whatever, they're going to 127 00:06:17,170 --> 00:06:19,890 Speaker 3: see them and they're going to penalise you for it, 128 00:06:19,890 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 3: but they're going to include that when trying to determine 129 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:24,180 Speaker 3: how much it is that you can borrow. And what 130 00:06:24,220 --> 00:06:26,799 Speaker 3: you can borrow is based on what money's left over. 131 00:06:27,020 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 3: If you can make some changes and find some spending cuts, 132 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,060 Speaker 3: reduce your expenses, then you want to be doing that 133 00:06:33,170 --> 00:06:35,110 Speaker 3: at the time that you're going to see a bank 134 00:06:35,130 --> 00:06:38,890 Speaker 3: or a broker about getting a mortgage because they're generally 135 00:06:38,910 --> 00:06:40,830 Speaker 3: going to want to see 30, 60, 90 days worth 136 00:06:40,870 --> 00:06:42,310 Speaker 3: of expenses when you're. 137 00:06:42,210 --> 00:06:43,110 Speaker 2: Putting in your application. 138 00:06:43,890 --> 00:06:47,030 Speaker 3: If they see $ 300, $ 400 a month or a week 139 00:06:47,110 --> 00:06:50,270 Speaker 3: going out to Uber Eats or any of the delivery places, 140 00:06:50,310 --> 00:06:51,310 Speaker 3: then they're going to see that. 141 00:06:51,470 --> 00:06:52,310 Speaker 2: It's a bit difficult to hide. 142 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: Well, I'd be furious if some banker pointed out to 143 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:59,650 Speaker 1: me any element of my expenses as to whether I 144 00:06:59,690 --> 00:07:01,730 Speaker 1: should change them or not. But it's really interesting you 145 00:07:01,770 --> 00:07:04,250 Speaker 1: say that. It's really good to hear that. So, folks, 146 00:07:04,310 --> 00:07:07,590 Speaker 1: if you are thinking of– if you are of that 147 00:07:07,850 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: persuasion that it's all too difficult, first of all, have 148 00:07:11,450 --> 00:07:14,220 Speaker 1: a look and see what could change, how you might 149 00:07:14,260 --> 00:07:17,370 Speaker 1: get to it. But more broadly, Bruce, do you still always– 150 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,630 Speaker 1: is it always your advice– that you should own your 151 00:07:21,670 --> 00:07:23,710 Speaker 1: own home? I know it's, I just want to check 152 00:07:23,750 --> 00:07:26,750 Speaker 1: with you. Is it always in all situations virtually your advice? 153 00:07:28,690 --> 00:07:31,290 Speaker 3: Well, I think it's for a lot of people, it's 154 00:07:31,350 --> 00:07:35,050 Speaker 3: a foundational stone of finances. The point about buying a 155 00:07:35,070 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 3: home is the security aspect and those sorts of things. 156 00:07:38,420 --> 00:07:42,100 Speaker 3: But you're building equity in a place, you're paying down 157 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,140 Speaker 3: a loan at some point in the future, and it's 158 00:07:44,180 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 3: rarely the 25 or 30 years of a regular mortgage. 159 00:07:46,900 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 2: You're normally paying it off before that. The cost of 160 00:07:50,070 --> 00:07:51,730 Speaker 2: putting a roof over your head ends. 161 00:07:51,830 --> 00:07:53,610 Speaker 3: Yes, you've still got rates and you've still got electricity 162 00:07:53,630 --> 00:07:56,310 Speaker 3: and gas and insurance and all those other expenses, but 163 00:07:56,350 --> 00:07:58,830 Speaker 3: the main cost of having a roof over your head 164 00:07:59,350 --> 00:08:02,250 Speaker 3: is done when you've finally paid off the mortgage. If 165 00:08:02,290 --> 00:08:05,070 Speaker 3: you decide not to buy, you'll rent until you die. 166 00:08:05,130 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 3: So if you don't buy a home and eventually pay 167 00:08:07,460 --> 00:08:10,740 Speaker 3: it off, you'll be renting through until you're not on 168 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 3: the earth anymore and there's an ongoing expense. Now, when 169 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,890 Speaker 3: you get to that sort of older age, age groups 170 00:08:16,910 --> 00:08:18,430 Speaker 3: and you're applying for the age pension, they have a 171 00:08:18,450 --> 00:08:21,190 Speaker 3: different level of pension, higher level of pension for people 172 00:08:21,210 --> 00:08:26,170 Speaker 3: who don't own their home, partly an acknowledgement of rent 173 00:08:26,670 --> 00:08:29,070 Speaker 3: being paid and a lower government. 174 00:08:28,630 --> 00:08:30,110 Speaker 2: Age pension for those who do own their home. 175 00:08:30,670 --> 00:08:33,270 Speaker 3: But it is the cornerstone for me or a foundation 176 00:08:33,290 --> 00:08:36,010 Speaker 3: stone of wealth. It doesn't mean that's right for everybody 177 00:08:36,070 --> 00:08:37,770 Speaker 3: and people have got to move every couple of years 178 00:08:37,929 --> 00:08:39,110 Speaker 3: because that's their work. 179 00:08:39,770 --> 00:08:40,890 Speaker 2: We don't want to be tied down. 180 00:08:41,620 --> 00:08:45,839 Speaker 3: Then if you're making that decision not to buy, to rent, 181 00:08:45,900 --> 00:08:47,900 Speaker 3: then you've got to make it work for you is 182 00:08:47,940 --> 00:08:48,839 Speaker 3: what I've always preached. 183 00:08:48,860 --> 00:08:49,340 Speaker 2: And that is. 184 00:08:50,820 --> 00:08:53,699 Speaker 3: Whatever you're not spending on a mortgage. So let's say 185 00:08:53,740 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 3: your rent is whatever, three grand a month and a 186 00:08:56,179 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 3: mortgage that costs you four or. 187 00:08:57,300 --> 00:09:00,199 Speaker 2: Four and a half, then whatever the case is, that. 188 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 3: Extra money that you're not using to pay a mortgage 189 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,500 Speaker 3: really needs to be going into some sort of longer 190 00:09:06,540 --> 00:09:09,900 Speaker 3: term investing to help look after you when you're getting 191 00:09:09,950 --> 00:09:12,829 Speaker 3: into Your old years or in your retirement now, whether 192 00:09:12,850 --> 00:09:15,250 Speaker 3: you're putting that money into super or other investments is 193 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 3: another matter that you need to look at on a 194 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:17,819 Speaker 3: personal level. 195 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 2: But renting is indefinite. Buying a home has an end 196 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 2: point for the largest part of having a roof over 197 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:24,100 Speaker 2: your head. 198 00:09:24,700 --> 00:09:26,580 Speaker 1: It could almost be a book title, Bruce. If you 199 00:09:26,620 --> 00:09:30,910 Speaker 1: decide not to buy, you rent until you die. That's 200 00:09:30,950 --> 00:09:32,890 Speaker 1: got a certain gravity to it. 201 00:09:33,690 --> 00:09:36,050 Speaker 3: I'm very sorry, James, but I am actually quoting myself 202 00:09:36,130 --> 00:09:38,229 Speaker 3: on that one. It's a line from Debt Man Walking, 203 00:09:38,250 --> 00:09:39,830 Speaker 3: which I wrote in 2008. 204 00:09:39,830 --> 00:09:43,579 Speaker 1: You're quoting from yourself is not plagiarism, Bruce. Quoting from 205 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,319 Speaker 1: yourself is the opposite of plagiarism. We all do it 206 00:09:46,340 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: all the time. Good for you. Okay. I knew Bruce 207 00:09:49,140 --> 00:09:51,460 Speaker 1: would be good on that particular issue. Just before we 208 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: go to questions, I want to do, I want to 209 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:55,110 Speaker 1: get to questions quickly this week, because as I say, 210 00:09:55,170 --> 00:09:57,150 Speaker 1: they were so good and such a range of questions. 211 00:09:57,690 --> 00:09:59,370 Speaker 1: But one thing that's come up on the show a 212 00:09:59,390 --> 00:10:00,740 Speaker 1: few times i just want to ask you before we 213 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: do is about rates okay so we look at the 214 00:10:05,179 --> 00:10:07,219 Speaker 1: media or we look at the financial press this week 215 00:10:07,260 --> 00:10:08,839 Speaker 1: and it's all about how rates are going to go 216 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:13,300 Speaker 1: down and how gold for instance gold focuses gold the 217 00:10:13,340 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: commodity or gold as you buy them through bullion or 218 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,620 Speaker 1: etfs is really starting to move as an alternative investment 219 00:10:20,490 --> 00:10:23,429 Speaker 1: with a much clearer record than, shall we say, private 220 00:10:23,970 --> 00:10:25,730 Speaker 1: equity or private credit. And by the way, I've had 221 00:10:25,750 --> 00:10:29,290 Speaker 1: some correspondents telling me that I'm too heavy and critical 222 00:10:29,330 --> 00:10:31,429 Speaker 1: on that. But the point I want to make is 223 00:10:31,470 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: that globally rates are going down, but in Australia, it's 224 00:10:38,100 --> 00:10:42,020 Speaker 1: unclear if rates are going to go down anytime soon. 225 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:46,599 Speaker 1: And if they did, RBA rates, we don't know to 226 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:50,530 Speaker 1: what extent the banks will cut rates anyway. Where are 227 00:10:50,550 --> 00:10:52,689 Speaker 1: you coming from, Bruce, when people ask you about that? 228 00:10:52,710 --> 00:10:54,449 Speaker 1: If people are coming in your door and they're making 229 00:10:54,530 --> 00:10:56,829 Speaker 1: plans and the plans hinge on the fact that rates 230 00:10:56,890 --> 00:10:59,980 Speaker 1: are going to be cut, what do you tell them? 231 00:11:00,860 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 2: Well, look, there's always two sides. 232 00:11:04,059 --> 00:11:05,940 Speaker 3: The main side of the story, which is probably what 233 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 3: we're talking about here, is people are wanting to buy 234 00:11:07,700 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 3: a home. 235 00:11:09,220 --> 00:11:11,839 Speaker 2: You can't bank on them. You just can't. Now, I 236 00:11:11,860 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 2: think competitive pressures are such that in the industry, a. 237 00:11:16,990 --> 00:11:20,670 Speaker 3: Bank, a lender, a reasonable-sized lender, If they decide to 238 00:11:20,700 --> 00:11:22,459 Speaker 3: pass it on or pass the vast majority of it 239 00:11:22,540 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 3: on and others are hesitant to do so, then they 240 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:25,820 Speaker 3: will pick up market share. 241 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:26,660 Speaker 2: It's as simple as that. 242 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:29,119 Speaker 3: They get to advertise that they've passed it on in 243 00:11:29,179 --> 00:11:31,340 Speaker 3: full or they passed on 20 when the average only 244 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 3: did 10 or if we're talking about a quarter percent 245 00:11:33,980 --> 00:11:36,020 Speaker 3: rate cut. And they will pick up market share and 246 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,429 Speaker 3: they will very quickly... The brokers out there will... Because 247 00:11:38,450 --> 00:11:41,809 Speaker 3: brokers make up about three quarters of the market now. 248 00:11:41,830 --> 00:11:43,730 Speaker 3: Of every loan that's done, three out of every four 249 00:11:43,750 --> 00:11:44,870 Speaker 3: loans that are done are done by brokers. 250 00:11:45,050 --> 00:11:47,030 Speaker 1: Yeah, most loans go through brokers. 251 00:11:47,230 --> 00:11:48,650 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so. 252 00:11:49,190 --> 00:11:51,970 Speaker 3: The brokers are going to look at that. Most clients 253 00:11:52,090 --> 00:11:54,860 Speaker 3: are at least a little focused or reasonably focused on 254 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 3: interest rates. And if lenders pass it on and other 255 00:11:57,800 --> 00:11:59,819 Speaker 3: lenders don't, then there is going to be a flow 256 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 3: of money to the lenders that do. What I tend 257 00:12:03,100 --> 00:12:06,579 Speaker 3: to say is that competitive pressures are such that if 258 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:07,220 Speaker 3: a few go. 259 00:12:07,380 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 2: More will go. 260 00:12:09,220 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 3: There is a lot of money to be made by 261 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:12,929 Speaker 3: banks though in delaying passing it on. So if they 262 00:12:12,950 --> 00:12:14,770 Speaker 3: delay passing it on by a few days or a week, 263 00:12:14,790 --> 00:12:17,430 Speaker 3: then given the size of the loan books, particularly of 264 00:12:17,450 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 3: the four majors, there's a lot of money to be 265 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,540 Speaker 3: made by not passing it on the 17th and delaying it. 266 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:22,900 Speaker 2: To the 22nd or whatever. 267 00:12:23,540 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 3: But there will be lenders that will take it as 268 00:12:25,860 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 3: an opportunity and a marking opportunity to cut rates in 269 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 3: full or even go a step further and offer 30 270 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:31,140 Speaker 3: basis points. 271 00:12:31,580 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 2: Okay. 272 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,910 Speaker 1: Do you think it's sufficiently competitive in the banking circle 273 00:12:35,350 --> 00:12:37,510 Speaker 1: that they will cut rates when the cuts come from 274 00:12:37,530 --> 00:12:38,050 Speaker 1: the RBA? 275 00:12:39,270 --> 00:12:39,829 Speaker 2: I think so. 276 00:12:39,850 --> 00:12:41,610 Speaker 3: Look, we're getting a lot of emails from the banks 277 00:12:41,630 --> 00:12:44,420 Speaker 3: at the moment talking about Fixed rates already being cussed, 278 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:48,069 Speaker 3: making some reductions there, making some bets there. Bond traders 279 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:50,890 Speaker 3: are beginning to price in and it gets to move around. 280 00:12:50,910 --> 00:12:53,940 Speaker 3: But the RBA made a statement in whatever that was, 2021, 281 00:12:53,929 --> 00:12:56,330 Speaker 3: about where they saw rates. 282 00:12:56,410 --> 00:12:59,270 Speaker 2: Bond traders called them liars. Very soon afterwards, who was right? 283 00:12:59,290 --> 00:12:59,809 Speaker 2: The bond traders. 284 00:13:00,290 --> 00:13:03,890 Speaker 1: The bond vigilantes. Yeah, don't ever doubt them. The money 285 00:13:03,910 --> 00:13:08,050 Speaker 1: markets will override central banks any day, folks. We've probably 286 00:13:08,090 --> 00:13:09,750 Speaker 1: seen that and you know that. And you know that 287 00:13:09,809 --> 00:13:13,589 Speaker 1: even here, the RBA has already, in recent history, being 288 00:13:13,630 --> 00:13:16,030 Speaker 1: called out and if the money market says rates are 289 00:13:16,050 --> 00:13:18,339 Speaker 1: going to fall in a very strong way and the 290 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: RBA are dithering and saying they mightn't the likelihood is 291 00:13:22,100 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: they will okay now let's go to questions we'll be 292 00:13:25,059 --> 00:13:38,830 Speaker 1: back in a moment so Hello and welcome back to 293 00:13:38,850 --> 00:13:41,910 Speaker 1: the Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. I'm James Kirby, the wealth 294 00:13:41,970 --> 00:13:44,730 Speaker 1: editor at The Australian, talking to Bruce Brammell of Bruce 295 00:13:44,790 --> 00:13:52,290 Speaker 1: Brammell Financial, financial advisor, author and regular guest on the show. Christopher, 296 00:13:52,790 --> 00:13:58,250 Speaker 1: I'm an Australian government official posted abroad, commonly deployed to 297 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: faraway places for years at a time. And I don't 298 00:14:02,500 --> 00:14:04,970 Speaker 1: own property, but I'd like to and I If I 299 00:14:05,010 --> 00:14:07,950 Speaker 1: bought my dream home on the New South Wales coast, 300 00:14:08,270 --> 00:14:11,219 Speaker 1: would it be considered my principal place of residence, even 301 00:14:11,290 --> 00:14:14,219 Speaker 1: if I'm not living in it? Part one. If I 302 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:18,260 Speaker 1: rent out my principal place of residence while I'm posted overseas, 303 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: would this mean it becomes subject to capital gains tax 304 00:14:22,540 --> 00:14:25,860 Speaker 1: upon resale? Okay, very clear. And none of this is advice. 305 00:14:25,900 --> 00:14:29,020 Speaker 1: It's always information. If he doesn't own a place and 306 00:14:29,060 --> 00:14:32,340 Speaker 1: he buys a place, and he declares that his principal 307 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: place of residence for tax purposes, can he come? Is 308 00:14:35,340 --> 00:14:37,239 Speaker 1: that all clear and he can still be wherever he 309 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: might be in, what does he call it, a faraway place? 310 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:45,300 Speaker 3: Yeah, Chris, I think firstly check with your accountant specifically 311 00:14:45,340 --> 00:14:48,140 Speaker 3: on that one. If you're not living in it, you're 312 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,580 Speaker 3: renting it out, you're drawing an income, you've probably got 313 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,420 Speaker 3: a loan, you're claiming tax deduction for it, you're probably 314 00:14:53,460 --> 00:14:57,580 Speaker 3: claiming tax deduction for rates, insurances, land tax, if that's 315 00:14:57,620 --> 00:15:00,940 Speaker 3: what's happening, if that's what you're actually claiming. There's also 316 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 3: something called the six-year rule, which I'll come back to 317 00:15:02,940 --> 00:15:06,020 Speaker 3: in a bit. If you're intending to come home and 318 00:15:06,060 --> 00:15:09,380 Speaker 3: live in it, understand that it is the portion, what 319 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,420 Speaker 3: the ATO looks at is the portion of time that 320 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,900 Speaker 3: it was a PPOR, your principal place of residence, versus 321 00:15:14,100 --> 00:15:16,990 Speaker 3: how long it was rented out for. So if you 322 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,090 Speaker 3: had it rented out for a couple of years, let's 323 00:15:19,110 --> 00:15:21,550 Speaker 3: say you're coming home in a few years to retire, 324 00:15:21,570 --> 00:15:23,850 Speaker 3: it sounds like you've been overseas for a while, and 325 00:15:23,910 --> 00:15:25,810 Speaker 3: you have it rented out for three years, but then 326 00:15:26,770 --> 00:15:28,630 Speaker 3: when you come back, you live in it for another 327 00:15:28,630 --> 00:15:29,730 Speaker 3: 17 years or something. 328 00:15:29,770 --> 00:15:30,750 Speaker 2: And then sell it. 329 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 3: If you were to do that, then three twentieths of 330 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:39,290 Speaker 3: the gain would most likely be accessible, and the other 331 00:15:39,290 --> 00:15:42,510 Speaker 3: 17 20ths wouldn't be. On that 320, you should also 332 00:15:42,530 --> 00:15:46,050 Speaker 3: get the 50% capital gains discount because you've owned the 333 00:15:46,230 --> 00:15:48,450 Speaker 3: asset for more than a year, and the amount of 334 00:15:48,510 --> 00:15:52,030 Speaker 3: CGT that you would actually pay would be fairly small 335 00:15:52,170 --> 00:15:54,150 Speaker 3: on a gain property that you've held for that period 336 00:15:54,170 --> 00:15:57,150 Speaker 3: of time. Do talk to your accountant about though, and 337 00:15:57,430 --> 00:15:59,950 Speaker 3: specific taxation advice is what you need in regards to that. 338 00:16:00,450 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 3: There's also what's known as the six-year rule. So a 339 00:16:02,420 --> 00:16:04,740 Speaker 3: lot of expats will have a property in Australia. They 340 00:16:04,980 --> 00:16:06,980 Speaker 3: only go and work overseas for a period of time. 341 00:16:07,100 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 3: You have six years, six and a half years, I 342 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,140 Speaker 3: think it is, from the time that you turn it 343 00:16:11,180 --> 00:16:13,730 Speaker 3: into an investment property to either return and move back 344 00:16:13,780 --> 00:16:17,690 Speaker 3: into it or to sell it and have it CGT free. 345 00:16:17,710 --> 00:16:19,670 Speaker 3: So this one's a little bit different to that in 346 00:16:19,690 --> 00:16:21,890 Speaker 3: that you won't have lived in it. And the third 347 00:16:21,970 --> 00:16:24,109 Speaker 3: thing I'll probably point out, Christopher, is that if it 348 00:16:24,130 --> 00:16:26,790 Speaker 3: becomes your dream home and you don't, you rent it 349 00:16:26,830 --> 00:16:28,510 Speaker 3: out for a period and then you move into it 350 00:16:28,630 --> 00:16:31,330 Speaker 3: and you never depart it until such time as you're 351 00:16:31,370 --> 00:16:33,250 Speaker 3: going out in a box, then you won't be paying 352 00:16:33,270 --> 00:16:35,380 Speaker 3: any CGT on it anyway. You only pay CGT when 353 00:16:35,410 --> 00:16:37,670 Speaker 3: you sell an asset. So if it was to be 354 00:16:37,700 --> 00:16:39,420 Speaker 3: your dream home and that was going to be your 355 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:41,540 Speaker 3: last home, then yeah, okay, it might become a problem for, 356 00:16:42,300 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 3: not a problem, but there might be a tax issue 357 00:16:44,300 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 3: for your kids when they're selling it, but it shouldn't 358 00:16:46,180 --> 00:16:47,740 Speaker 3: be in your lifetime if that's the case. 359 00:16:47,820 --> 00:16:51,100 Speaker 1: Okay, interesting. Hey, Bruce, can I just double check on something? 360 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: If the person owns the property, rents it, and then 361 00:16:56,340 --> 00:17:00,900 Speaker 1: moves into it afterwards. If they move in after six years, 362 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: are you saying the first six years are not accounted 363 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: for CGT? 364 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,179 Speaker 3: No, if you've lived in it and it's been your 365 00:17:08,220 --> 00:17:11,170 Speaker 3: principal place of residence, then you've moved either interstate, overseas, 366 00:17:11,250 --> 00:17:14,310 Speaker 3: even across town, really. You have six years, six and 367 00:17:14,330 --> 00:17:16,670 Speaker 3: a half years to either sell it or to move 368 00:17:16,710 --> 00:17:20,990 Speaker 3: back into it and maintain the CGT-free status of the property. 369 00:17:21,990 --> 00:17:24,110 Speaker 1: So you have to have lived in it and left 370 00:17:24,170 --> 00:17:24,649 Speaker 1: it and come back? 371 00:17:25,410 --> 00:17:27,220 Speaker 3: I would think so, but that is what I'd want 372 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 3: Christopher to chat to an accountant about, the actual technicality. 373 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: Of that rule. I hope that's interesting for you. It's 374 00:17:35,140 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: worth exploring. Let's put it that way. We don't give advice, 375 00:17:37,619 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: but it's worth exploring. All right. I'm going to read 376 00:17:39,619 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: this question from Stephen. 377 00:17:41,619 --> 00:17:45,060 Speaker 2: From Stephen, I'm a local resident of Manjura in Western Australia. 378 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:48,439 Speaker 3: I recently bought an investment property locally and called the 379 00:17:48,460 --> 00:17:52,710 Speaker 3: real estate agent for a rental appraisement. appraisal, she automatically 380 00:17:52,730 --> 00:17:56,429 Speaker 3: assumed I was interstate and was shocked when I said 381 00:17:56,470 --> 00:17:59,570 Speaker 3: I wasn't. As the real estate agent said, we don't 382 00:17:59,630 --> 00:18:02,370 Speaker 3: have any West Australians buying houses here. 383 00:18:03,490 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: Eastern state colonists charging in carpetbaggers from Melbourne and Sydney 384 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: pouring into Manjura. Hey, I'll tell you something. Do you 385 00:18:13,740 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: want to know the reverse of that? People put their 386 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,210 Speaker 1: home up for sale in parts of Melbourne. And they 387 00:18:19,230 --> 00:18:22,930 Speaker 1: get flyers in the door saying, moving to Queensland. Such 388 00:18:22,970 --> 00:18:25,130 Speaker 1: and such removals. We are around the corner and here's 389 00:18:25,170 --> 00:18:27,189 Speaker 1: our phone number. So there you are, two sides to 390 00:18:27,250 --> 00:18:29,830 Speaker 1: every coin. Thank you for that, Stephen. All right, a 391 00:18:29,850 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 1: question from Shankar, S-H-A-N-K-A-R. I was amused by your example 392 00:18:34,940 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: of what people do while listening to the podcast as 393 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 1: blowing leaves. This is exactly what I do each week 394 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:46,210 Speaker 1: with my Husqvarna backpack blower. You've identified your core demographic. Perhaps. 395 00:18:46,550 --> 00:18:48,570 Speaker 1: I have a couple of those. Some very interesting ones. 396 00:18:48,609 --> 00:18:51,369 Speaker 1: We must actually, I must collect them and read a 397 00:18:51,390 --> 00:18:53,540 Speaker 1: few out someday of what people do listening to the show. 398 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:55,460 Speaker 1: We had a chap who was so fed up of 399 00:18:55,500 --> 00:18:57,699 Speaker 1: the waiting for a builder to build something for him 400 00:18:57,740 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: that he started building himself and sent me pictures of 401 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: himself on the veranda doing what looked like quite elaborate 402 00:19:04,980 --> 00:19:09,340 Speaker 1: building work. So there you are. And other things. Shankar's question, however, 403 00:19:09,460 --> 00:19:13,110 Speaker 1: is this. My question relates to superannuation. I am 57. 404 00:19:13,109 --> 00:19:17,290 Speaker 1: Super balance. We don't need to know. My wife is 59. 405 00:19:17,290 --> 00:19:20,710 Speaker 1: Super balance. Okay. They've got plenty of super. She will 406 00:19:20,770 --> 00:19:24,270 Speaker 1: likely work beyond 60. I am not currently working. Both 407 00:19:24,710 --> 00:19:30,020 Speaker 1: our super balances remain in big super in retail funds. Okay. 408 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,679 Speaker 1: As we're nearly 60, I'm considering how and when to 409 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,120 Speaker 1: restructure for pension. Okay. That makes a lot of sense 410 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 1: so far. First question from Shankar. Are we missing a trick? 411 00:19:42,619 --> 00:19:45,830 Speaker 1: by remaining in these retail funds and not commencing an SMF? 412 00:19:46,510 --> 00:19:49,380 Speaker 1: Big question, Bruce. comes up all the time people get 413 00:19:49,420 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: to their retirement phase and then they say will I 414 00:19:52,540 --> 00:19:56,669 Speaker 1: start an SMSF my instinct is if you were that 415 00:19:56,750 --> 00:19:58,830 Speaker 1: type you would have done it years ago what do 416 00:19:58,850 --> 00:20:00,929 Speaker 1: you say and this is not advice Shankar this is 417 00:20:00,990 --> 00:20:02,090 Speaker 1: for all the Shankars in the. 418 00:20:02,050 --> 00:20:06,660 Speaker 3: World yeah look you Certainly with the balances that you've 419 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,340 Speaker 3: pointed out there, which are north of 2.5 mil for 420 00:20:09,859 --> 00:20:11,859 Speaker 3: the two of you, there's a lot of reasons that 421 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,180 Speaker 3: you might start an SMSF. One of those might be 422 00:20:14,340 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 3: around cost. Certainly, I think that once you get to 423 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,540 Speaker 3: about 750 or a mil, SMSFs can start to make sense. 424 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 3: They can start to make sense before that from my 425 00:20:22,460 --> 00:20:25,100 Speaker 3: perspective when I'm advising clients that 750 to a mil 426 00:20:25,220 --> 00:20:27,850 Speaker 3: can be where they start to make sense from an 427 00:20:27,869 --> 00:20:31,710 Speaker 3: overall cost perspective. Once you get to 2.5 mil, almost inevitably, 428 00:20:31,730 --> 00:20:34,910 Speaker 3: it will make sense. It's not always about costs, though. 429 00:20:34,930 --> 00:20:37,770 Speaker 3: A lot of retail funds will offer you the same 430 00:20:37,810 --> 00:20:40,730 Speaker 3: opportunities that you can get for a similar cost. There's 431 00:20:40,790 --> 00:20:44,190 Speaker 3: what's known as family fee aggregation. You might be at 432 00:20:44,230 --> 00:20:47,310 Speaker 3: two different retail funds, but if you bought your funds 433 00:20:47,510 --> 00:20:51,149 Speaker 3: to the same platform, the same fund provider, linked them 434 00:20:51,190 --> 00:20:53,290 Speaker 3: in the background, that doesn't mean putting the money together, 435 00:20:53,330 --> 00:20:55,830 Speaker 3: but linking them in the background, then what you'll often 436 00:20:55,890 --> 00:20:59,969 Speaker 3: find is that they look at your The relationship they 437 00:20:59,990 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 3: have with husband and wife, we go, okay, we've got 438 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:03,860 Speaker 3: 1.5 mil here, 1.1 mil here. We don't have two 439 00:21:03,940 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 3: separate relationships. We've got sort of one relationship that is 440 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 3: worth 2.5, 2.6 million, and the fees come down accordingly 441 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,050 Speaker 3: as if you had one account that was doing that roughly. 442 00:21:14,650 --> 00:21:16,830 Speaker 3: That's one sort of potential opportunity. You've said you're in 443 00:21:16,869 --> 00:21:18,609 Speaker 3: retail funds at the moment. That would allow you the 444 00:21:18,650 --> 00:21:21,430 Speaker 3: ability to buy the shares, the ETFs, and various other 445 00:21:21,450 --> 00:21:23,740 Speaker 3: things that you wanted to if you want to take 446 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 3: direct control. The biggest thing about self-managed super funds, though, 447 00:21:26,540 --> 00:21:29,580 Speaker 3: is control, and that's the reason that most people start them. 448 00:21:29,820 --> 00:21:31,919 Speaker 3: Some might be looking at expenses, but it's about control. 449 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,699 Speaker 3: Do you want to control the investments, or do you 450 00:21:34,740 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 3: want to work with an advisor to help you control 451 00:21:37,140 --> 00:21:40,290 Speaker 3: the investments? By doing that, I mean buying direct shares. 452 00:21:40,369 --> 00:21:42,830 Speaker 3: A lot of people start their SMSFs because they want 453 00:21:43,130 --> 00:21:46,570 Speaker 3: to choose to buy BHP over Rio or to exclude 454 00:21:46,609 --> 00:21:50,150 Speaker 3: certain things, and they've got certain investment interests that they 455 00:21:50,830 --> 00:21:52,170 Speaker 3: want to follow and think that they can do it 456 00:21:52,210 --> 00:21:53,919 Speaker 3: just as well as the fund managers. Some will be 457 00:21:53,980 --> 00:21:56,220 Speaker 3: able to, some won't. But there are a lot of 458 00:21:56,260 --> 00:21:59,699 Speaker 3: different options there. Considering doing it at this stage in 459 00:21:59,740 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 3: life when you're going to turn on a pension, is 460 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,190 Speaker 3: it necessarily a bad idea, James? I don't necessarily think 461 00:22:05,230 --> 00:22:06,250 Speaker 3: that that's a bad idea. 462 00:22:07,470 --> 00:22:09,890 Speaker 1: To play devil's advocate on it, Bruce, I would say 463 00:22:09,950 --> 00:22:13,109 Speaker 1: what about the fact that it looks like it would seem, 464 00:22:13,330 --> 00:22:15,830 Speaker 1: I don't know, but it would seem I see no 465 00:22:15,869 --> 00:22:18,360 Speaker 1: complaints about their retail super funds and they have pretty 466 00:22:18,390 --> 00:22:22,180 Speaker 1: healthy super balances. And so it would be worth asking, 467 00:22:22,540 --> 00:22:26,330 Speaker 1: could you really do better? And how much more work 468 00:22:26,390 --> 00:22:31,490 Speaker 1: would it involve? And are you sufficiently equipped and energetic, 469 00:22:31,550 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: if you like, to take on the substantial, not just 470 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:40,340 Speaker 1: the logistics and paperwork of doing an SMSF, but the 471 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: actual stress of being in charge of your own retirement 472 00:22:44,980 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 1: when it has become exceptionally important to you. It's more 473 00:22:47,020 --> 00:22:48,860 Speaker 1: important to you now than it was two years ago. 474 00:22:49,140 --> 00:22:52,500 Speaker 1: That's just to play devil's advocate there. The second part 475 00:22:52,540 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: of Shankar's question is more or less the same as 476 00:22:54,100 --> 00:22:57,300 Speaker 1: the first. Would we be better off moving to pension 477 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,740 Speaker 1: products in our existing providers? That's the playoff between that 478 00:23:00,780 --> 00:23:03,860 Speaker 1: and SMSFs for you to decide, Shankar. I hope that's 479 00:23:03,940 --> 00:23:06,859 Speaker 1: useful to you. Okay, I think you read the next one. 480 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,340 Speaker 3: So from Robert, purchased a property prior to auction earlier 481 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 3: this year and received unconditional loan approval from the bank. 482 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,330 Speaker 3: Settlement was due at the end of August. His bank 483 00:23:18,350 --> 00:23:20,330 Speaker 3: had quoted him an interest rate in June, but when 484 00:23:20,350 --> 00:23:22,690 Speaker 3: he received the mortgage documents, the bank had increased the 485 00:23:22,730 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 3: quoted rate by 0.27% without informing him, and obviously there'd 486 00:23:28,060 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 3: been no RBA rate increases during that period. When he 487 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 3: questioned the change, he was informed that they had withdrawn 488 00:23:33,460 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 3: the special introductory offer at the end of July after 489 00:23:37,140 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 3: he'd purchased the property, but before he'd been given unconditional approval. 490 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,750 Speaker 3: It's now only a couple of weeks to settlements, and 491 00:23:43,770 --> 00:23:46,940 Speaker 3: the idea of sourcing property A loan without delaying settlement 492 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,010 Speaker 3: could be difficult. Robert feels badly mistreated by the bank. 493 00:23:50,250 --> 00:23:53,169 Speaker 3: They used a great offer to lure him in and 494 00:23:53,190 --> 00:23:56,969 Speaker 3: then pulled the loan prior to him signing the documents 495 00:23:57,030 --> 00:23:57,470 Speaker 3: and whatever. 496 00:23:57,710 --> 00:23:57,970 Speaker 2: So. 497 00:23:58,490 --> 00:24:00,910 Speaker 1: Dude, it's such a good question. I don't know about you, Bruce. 498 00:24:00,930 --> 00:24:04,010 Speaker 1: Have you come across this? The first home I ever bought, 499 00:24:04,750 --> 00:24:07,530 Speaker 1: I also fixed. So it was very important what the 500 00:24:07,550 --> 00:24:10,010 Speaker 1: deal was. And I remember I fixed for five years. 501 00:24:10,850 --> 00:24:15,340 Speaker 1: And when we sat down opposite the guy... In NAB, 502 00:24:15,630 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: and I noticed Robert hasn't. By the way, folks, you 503 00:24:18,100 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 1: can mention these institutions anytime you wish, and we'll make 504 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: a decision whether it's fair to mention them in turn. 505 00:24:24,460 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: But in any event, when we got in to sit 506 00:24:26,300 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 1: down with my wife, when we got in to sign 507 00:24:28,900 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: the documents, the banker was talking ad nauseum about all 508 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,500 Speaker 1: sorts of things, and then just mentioned the rate, and 509 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,030 Speaker 1: I just noticed it was a half percent higher than 510 00:24:38,050 --> 00:24:39,649 Speaker 1: we'd agreed all the way along. And we were at 511 00:24:39,690 --> 00:24:43,170 Speaker 1: the last moment, and I just said, hang on a second, blah, blah, blah. 512 00:24:43,550 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: And he backtracked and said, yeah. And I don't know 513 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: how much that meant to us over the years, but 514 00:24:47,300 --> 00:24:52,100 Speaker 1: it was a lot. So my point is that whole 515 00:24:52,580 --> 00:24:55,340 Speaker 1: first thing I would suggest to anyone in that situation 516 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,300 Speaker 1: is to kick back hard on the bank and see 517 00:24:58,340 --> 00:25:05,230 Speaker 1: how they respond. They're not inflexible. And you have worked 518 00:25:05,510 --> 00:25:07,870 Speaker 1: on a deal on the assumption of a rate which 519 00:25:07,910 --> 00:25:09,830 Speaker 1: you all agreed on, and they're changing it. It doesn't 520 00:25:09,869 --> 00:25:12,740 Speaker 1: matter what the explanation is. They're changing it. What do 521 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:14,379 Speaker 1: you think, Bruce? That's what I think. What do you 522 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,380 Speaker 1: think as an advisor on the ground? 523 00:25:17,109 --> 00:25:20,670 Speaker 3: Mortgage broker, hat on, you need to settle, basically. Now, 524 00:25:21,230 --> 00:25:23,109 Speaker 3: you settle with a bit of a sour taste in 525 00:25:23,130 --> 00:25:25,770 Speaker 3: your mouth. It probably is too late. We're getting pretty difficult. 526 00:25:25,790 --> 00:25:28,050 Speaker 3: We don't know enough about the circumstances, your incomes, all 527 00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:29,630 Speaker 3: that sort of stuff to see whether you do actually 528 00:25:29,650 --> 00:25:32,070 Speaker 3: have time to go to another lender. I would probably 529 00:25:32,090 --> 00:25:35,290 Speaker 3: suggest settling, accepting, pushing back on them a bit and saying, 530 00:25:35,310 --> 00:25:37,190 Speaker 3: hang on a second, but it sounds like you've probably 531 00:25:37,210 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 3: given that a try. Push back on them a bit, 532 00:25:39,300 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 3: but the most important thing is settling, getting the property 533 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,330 Speaker 3: in your name. Once you've done that, you don't owe 534 00:25:44,390 --> 00:25:48,290 Speaker 3: any loyalty to this bank. It doesn't sound like you've 535 00:25:48,310 --> 00:25:50,530 Speaker 3: gone through a broker. I would probably suggest going to 536 00:25:50,550 --> 00:25:53,490 Speaker 3: see a broker straight afterwards or even now and say 537 00:25:53,510 --> 00:25:55,980 Speaker 3: this has happened, particularly if you've gone direct. 538 00:25:55,780 --> 00:25:56,170 Speaker 2: To a bank. 539 00:25:56,660 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 3: Go and see a broker and explain to them what's 540 00:25:58,340 --> 00:26:01,100 Speaker 3: happened and see whether the rates, whether there are more 541 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 3: competitive rates out there. If you did go through a broker, 542 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:06,980 Speaker 3: then get your broker to push back on the bank. 543 00:26:07,460 --> 00:26:08,580 Speaker 3: It might not have an impact. 544 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 2: They do have to cut off special rates at various 545 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:12,659 Speaker 2: periods of time. That's what they do. 546 00:26:12,740 --> 00:26:15,100 Speaker 3: And it is to try to get people in the door. 547 00:26:15,340 --> 00:26:19,330 Speaker 3: I would probably suggest settling, getting the place, and then 548 00:26:19,390 --> 00:26:21,850 Speaker 3: looking to move on or to bash the bank. Go 549 00:26:21,910 --> 00:26:25,270 Speaker 3: back and tell the bank that you're not happy with 550 00:26:25,330 --> 00:26:26,969 Speaker 3: it and you're going to leave. They've done a lot 551 00:26:26,990 --> 00:26:28,990 Speaker 3: of work. They're not making any money really out of 552 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,260 Speaker 3: this in the short term. Banks make money the longer 553 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,990 Speaker 3: you hang around with them. And you might find in 554 00:26:34,010 --> 00:26:36,110 Speaker 3: that situation that if you go and push back or 555 00:26:36,130 --> 00:26:38,570 Speaker 3: threaten to leave once the loan is settled and say 556 00:26:38,590 --> 00:26:40,490 Speaker 3: that you're unhappy, that something might happen. 557 00:26:40,510 --> 00:26:43,070 Speaker 2: And if it doesn't, take it to the market, go 558 00:26:43,090 --> 00:26:43,669 Speaker 2: and see a broker. 559 00:26:44,250 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: Thank you for that answer. It's so good and really 560 00:26:47,100 --> 00:26:51,640 Speaker 1: reflected your own skills, Bruce, and experience. I didn't even 561 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,980 Speaker 1: know and even into my mind that you could, after settlement, 562 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,450 Speaker 1: take a second look because in my mind, that was it. 563 00:26:58,480 --> 00:26:58,979 Speaker 1: That was the end. 564 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:01,780 Speaker 3: In your case, I think in your case, James, you're 565 00:27:01,820 --> 00:27:03,500 Speaker 3: talking about a fixed rate and we don't know whether 566 00:27:03,540 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 3: Robert's talking about a fixed rate here or not. If 567 00:27:05,300 --> 00:27:07,619 Speaker 3: he's talking about a fixed rate, then yes, that's not 568 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 3: going to necessarily be possible. If it's a variable rate, yep, 569 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:12,940 Speaker 3: he doesn't have to hang around. There might be some fees. 570 00:27:12,980 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 3: You've got to figure out whether the fees to get out, 571 00:27:15,180 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 3: which are not as big as they used to be, 572 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,510 Speaker 3: but the fees to get out are worthwhile to get 573 00:27:18,530 --> 00:27:20,510 Speaker 3: the new rates at a new bank or something like that. 574 00:27:20,570 --> 00:27:23,810 Speaker 3: But fixed rates would be difficult, variable maybe less so. 575 00:27:24,650 --> 00:27:27,649 Speaker 1: OK, so and also mortgage broker on that occasion, I 576 00:27:27,690 --> 00:27:31,250 Speaker 1: think sounds like to be absolutely essential for anyone in 577 00:27:31,290 --> 00:27:34,430 Speaker 1: that position. Very interesting. OK, we'll take a short break. 578 00:27:34,530 --> 00:27:43,230 Speaker 1: Back in a moment. Hello, welcome back to the Australian's 579 00:27:43,300 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: Money Puzzle podcast. I'm James Kirby, wealth editor at The Australian, 580 00:27:47,140 --> 00:27:53,379 Speaker 1: talking to Bruce Bramall, financial advisor, author, media figure and 581 00:27:53,420 --> 00:27:56,030 Speaker 1: regular on the show. Now, it's a question from Neil. 582 00:27:57,130 --> 00:28:00,930 Speaker 1: I heard Danielle Ekoye on the show a few weeks 583 00:28:00,950 --> 00:28:04,890 Speaker 1: ago mention she never borrows to invest. But what about 584 00:28:04,930 --> 00:28:10,090 Speaker 1: the property market? My question is, if leverage is a 585 00:28:10,130 --> 00:28:13,610 Speaker 1: good idea, then why do more investors not borrow to 586 00:28:13,670 --> 00:28:16,389 Speaker 1: invest in the share market as opposed to the property market? 587 00:28:16,430 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: And he mentions one of the He mentions the NAB 588 00:28:18,820 --> 00:28:23,070 Speaker 1: equity builder, which is often mentioned here and there for 589 00:28:23,109 --> 00:28:26,030 Speaker 1: people who are leveraging, looking for what you might call 590 00:28:26,050 --> 00:28:29,330 Speaker 1: a structured product or an arrangement to go into the 591 00:28:29,350 --> 00:28:32,570 Speaker 1: share market and borrow. Now, that was unusual. I was 592 00:28:32,590 --> 00:28:34,850 Speaker 1: surprised that Danielle said that, but because she's in the 593 00:28:34,869 --> 00:28:36,990 Speaker 1: markets a long time and a very skilled operator herself, 594 00:28:37,430 --> 00:28:42,190 Speaker 1: but that's her view. Most people identify property and leverage 595 00:28:42,230 --> 00:28:45,530 Speaker 1: property through negative gearing because there are specific tax advantages involved. 596 00:28:45,790 --> 00:28:48,810 Speaker 1: Those tax advantages are also available to you if you 597 00:28:48,830 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: buy shares. So, Neil, just to enhance the question a bit, 598 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:58,300 Speaker 1: why don't people borrow more often to buy investments outside 599 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: property when they can negatively gear them, just like they 600 00:29:00,860 --> 00:29:03,860 Speaker 1: negatively gear property? What do you think, Bruce? Why? Is 601 00:29:03,900 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: it because the trauma of watching share prices bounce around 602 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:08,900 Speaker 1: every day? 603 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 3: It is partly about volatility. Shares are just simply far 604 00:29:14,020 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 3: more volatile than property. I love both as asset classes 605 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,380 Speaker 3: and we have clients with both, obviously. But borrowing to 606 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,940 Speaker 3: invest in the share market is less popular because of 607 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,100 Speaker 3: things like if you're using a margin loan because of 608 00:29:26,140 --> 00:29:30,190 Speaker 3: margin calls, when markets tend to fall quite heavily and 609 00:29:30,210 --> 00:29:34,050 Speaker 3: there's a margin call, that can be a problem. The 610 00:29:34,070 --> 00:29:37,410 Speaker 3: other way of borrowing for a share investment is potentially 611 00:29:37,710 --> 00:29:39,910 Speaker 3: without margin calls is to borrow against another asset. 612 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 2: Asset, generally a property. 613 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,540 Speaker 3: So you might want to invest tax effectively into a 614 00:29:44,580 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 3: share portfolio, a diversified share portfolio. 615 00:29:46,660 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 2: I've got equity in my home. 616 00:29:47,780 --> 00:29:51,870 Speaker 3: I'm going to borrow, get a $ 200, 000 facility against. 617 00:29:51,690 --> 00:29:53,830 Speaker 2: My home, secure against my home to invest in $ 200, 000 618 00:29:53,670 --> 00:29:54,070 Speaker 2: worth of shares. 619 00:29:55,430 --> 00:29:59,690 Speaker 3: You'll get a home loan rate on there, which can 620 00:29:59,730 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 3: be one way of doing it. And you're investing in shares, 621 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,459 Speaker 3: which will be returning dividends and distributions. And there will 622 00:30:05,500 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 3: be some negative, most likely when you start, some negative 623 00:30:07,900 --> 00:30:11,420 Speaker 3: gearing around that. So you can and do have that ability. 624 00:30:11,900 --> 00:30:14,540 Speaker 3: The shares are just more volatile. The thing about property is, 625 00:30:14,550 --> 00:30:18,770 Speaker 3: when you're borrowing for property, you're normally lending against. 626 00:30:18,510 --> 00:30:19,290 Speaker 2: The asset itself. 627 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,030 Speaker 3: And depending on which way you do it, 80% against 628 00:30:22,050 --> 00:30:23,770 Speaker 3: the property, and then you need to either put up 629 00:30:23,810 --> 00:30:25,710 Speaker 3: the remainder of the money or borrow the remainder of 630 00:30:25,730 --> 00:30:28,710 Speaker 3: the money, the extra 20% plus your stamp duties, and 631 00:30:28,750 --> 00:30:31,650 Speaker 3: put that against another property. But I think the reason 632 00:30:31,690 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 3: that most people, it's less well taken up is largely 633 00:30:36,100 --> 00:30:37,990 Speaker 3: because of the volatility element of it. 634 00:30:38,460 --> 00:30:40,500 Speaker 1: Yes, and you were alluding there to the fact that 635 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,100 Speaker 1: the banks are lenders with property that If you say 636 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 1: you've got a million dollar house, it's worth a million dollars, 637 00:30:47,060 --> 00:30:48,540 Speaker 1: they'll take it as a million dollars. If you say 638 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: you've got a million dollar share portfolio, they don't take 639 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:52,420 Speaker 1: it as a million, do they? They ratchet it way 640 00:30:52,460 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: back and they say, we'll only assume that's worth. They 641 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,180 Speaker 1: mark that down a fair bit for collateral purposes. 642 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,330 Speaker 3: From a lending perspective, they tend to take it at 643 00:31:01,350 --> 00:31:03,430 Speaker 3: face value. They might discount a little bit. They certainly 644 00:31:03,470 --> 00:31:07,070 Speaker 3: do discount the income that comes from it when they're 645 00:31:07,090 --> 00:31:09,390 Speaker 3: looking for loans. So if you've got a million dollar 646 00:31:09,410 --> 00:31:13,870 Speaker 3: portfolio yielding 4% plus some franking credits, then they'll take 20% 647 00:31:13,870 --> 00:31:16,650 Speaker 3: as a general rule, I think, of that and discount 648 00:31:16,670 --> 00:31:19,300 Speaker 3: the income stream because dividends can be cut, but GFCs 649 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:20,500 Speaker 3: or not, you know, COVID. 650 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: But don't they assume that rentals can be vacant? 651 00:31:25,980 --> 00:31:28,770 Speaker 3: Yes, they do, but they assume that there's a percent 652 00:31:28,810 --> 00:31:34,310 Speaker 3: rental vacancy on any given property. Yeah, 2% as in 653 00:31:35,150 --> 00:31:37,010 Speaker 3: a couple of weeks a year or something. So if 654 00:31:37,150 --> 00:31:39,770 Speaker 3: you tell them that's worth 500 bucks a week, they 655 00:31:39,810 --> 00:31:42,350 Speaker 3: automatically discount it by probably about a similar sort of 656 00:31:42,390 --> 00:31:46,630 Speaker 3: percentage of 20%, but that's to cover vacancy rates, insurances, 657 00:31:46,790 --> 00:31:48,250 Speaker 3: the other costs of holding a property as well. 658 00:31:48,790 --> 00:31:50,930 Speaker 1: Okay, yes. And as you say, the risk of a 659 00:31:50,950 --> 00:31:54,730 Speaker 1: vacant property just now is more or less zilch. Okay, 660 00:31:54,790 --> 00:31:57,230 Speaker 1: final question from Ben, if you would read that one. 661 00:31:58,150 --> 00:31:59,810 Speaker 2: I'll read this one, but I think this is definitely 662 00:31:59,830 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 2: a question for you, James. 663 00:32:01,150 --> 00:32:01,430 Speaker 1: I know. 664 00:32:01,450 --> 00:32:04,420 Speaker 3: So from Ben, how come you're expanding the top advisors 665 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 3: list to 150? Why not just expand it to 15,000 666 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 3: and cover all advisors? Maybe an idea is to do 667 00:32:10,820 --> 00:32:14,060 Speaker 3: like wines and categorize them best for small accounts, best 668 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:15,620 Speaker 3: for retirees, best for big families. 669 00:32:16,100 --> 00:32:19,010 Speaker 1: Yes, thank you, Ben. The top advisors list goes from 670 00:32:19,010 --> 00:32:22,810 Speaker 1: 100 to 150 this year. On its seventh year, Ben, 671 00:32:22,850 --> 00:32:26,710 Speaker 1: we're not exactly rushing it. Started with 50 and 217, 672 00:32:26,710 --> 00:32:28,570 Speaker 1: and then we opened it up to 100 a couple 673 00:32:28,590 --> 00:32:31,900 Speaker 1: of years ago. Very careful opening it up at 150 674 00:32:31,900 --> 00:32:32,100 Speaker 1: out of 15,000. 675 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 2: That's not exactly. 676 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: It's a balance between offering something that's really useful and 677 00:32:38,570 --> 00:32:41,530 Speaker 1: that it's not so tiny that it's not useful because 678 00:32:41,570 --> 00:32:44,190 Speaker 1: nobody can get into these people. As to how big 679 00:32:44,210 --> 00:32:47,010 Speaker 1: the list will get, I couldn't tell you. And I 680 00:32:47,050 --> 00:32:49,150 Speaker 1: like your idea, of course. And by the way, so 681 00:32:49,170 --> 00:32:51,930 Speaker 1: does Barron's. And in the US, they have sufficient data 682 00:32:52,230 --> 00:32:55,050 Speaker 1: and scale that they do slice and dice it like that. 683 00:32:55,070 --> 00:32:57,130 Speaker 1: They have the best male and the best female and 684 00:32:57,150 --> 00:32:59,650 Speaker 1: the best family advisors. And they have it state by state. 685 00:32:59,690 --> 00:33:02,430 Speaker 1: And it's all quite marvelous. But they're doing it for 686 00:33:02,430 --> 00:33:06,660 Speaker 1: 25 years there. And they have an enormous population, of course. 687 00:33:06,740 --> 00:33:11,030 Speaker 1: But we are steadily and conservatively moving along on that one. 688 00:33:11,050 --> 00:33:13,610 Speaker 1: So that's the explanation, Ben, which I hope is good 689 00:33:13,650 --> 00:33:16,810 Speaker 1: enough for you. All right. Hey, thank you very much, Bruce. 690 00:33:16,890 --> 00:33:17,730 Speaker 1: Great to have you on today. 691 00:33:18,770 --> 00:33:20,870 Speaker 2: Absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me on, James. 692 00:33:21,540 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: Always great to have Bruce Brammel, Bruce Brammel Financial Advice 693 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 1: on the show. Thank you, everybody, for listening. Do mention 694 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,660 Speaker 1: us to someone, one person you know. It would be 695 00:33:30,700 --> 00:33:33,860 Speaker 1: lovely to spread the word about the show. and keep 696 00:33:33,900 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 1: the emails coming in, themoneypuzzle at theaustralian.com.au. Talk to you soon.