WEBVTT - Zero accountability: Rick Morton on the NACC dropping robodebt

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<v Speaker 1>From Schwartz Media. I'm Ashlin McGee. This is seven am.

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<v Speaker 1>When the final report from the Robodet Royal Commission landed,

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<v Speaker 1>it was gathing of the entire scheme, the individuals who

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<v Speaker 1>rolled it out, and the government policy that enabled it.

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<v Speaker 1>The commissioner went to significant lengths to refer six people

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<v Speaker 1>to at that point very fresh National Anti Corruption Commission

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<v Speaker 1>the NAK. But last week the Corruption Commission said it

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<v Speaker 1>wouldn't be investigating further, essentially saying it had nothing to add.

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<v Speaker 1>So what's the motivation there? Why not take a swing

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<v Speaker 1>at the architects of such a discredited and damaging scheme.

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<v Speaker 1>Today the Saturday Paper senior report of Rick Morton on

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<v Speaker 1>why no real people are being held to account and

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<v Speaker 1>the impact that that has on victims. It's Monday, June tenth.

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<v Speaker 2>Rick.

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<v Speaker 1>Around this time last year, you broke a story that

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<v Speaker 1>the Robutad Royal Commission made this huge call to delay

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<v Speaker 1>handing down its findings. Can you take us back to

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<v Speaker 1>that time and what you learned.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was a pretty significant little tidbit actually at

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<v Speaker 2>the time, because the robertedt Roy Commission was happening on

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<v Speaker 2>an incredibly tight timeframe, they were still receiving documents from

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<v Speaker 2>the Comwealth by the truckload, essentially while they were holding hearings,

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<v Speaker 2>so they'd already been granted a delay or an extension

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<v Speaker 2>of time. Really to finish writing the report.

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<v Speaker 3>This Commission has to inquire and report, and an important

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<v Speaker 3>part of the inquiry component is these public hearings because

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<v Speaker 3>it's the opportunity to explore evidence in a public forum.

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<v Speaker 4>But not many people and the.

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<v Speaker 2>Commissioner Catherine Holmes wrote to the Attorney General Mark Dreyfus

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<v Speaker 2>and requested another extension of time, this one by only

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<v Speaker 2>seven days. So they were originally meant to report then

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<v Speaker 2>on June thirty. This extension was asking for them to

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<v Speaker 2>be able to report the following week, in the first

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<v Speaker 2>week of July. Now that was significant because the only

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<v Speaker 2>reason Commissioner Holmes, i reported at the time, wanted that

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<v Speaker 2>extension was because the National Anti Corruption Commission did not

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<v Speaker 2>take effect in law until July one. At that point

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<v Speaker 2>she had formed a view it seems that she might

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<v Speaker 2>potentially need to make referrals to the National Anti Coruption Commission,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's why she wanted that one week extension. It

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<v Speaker 2>was the only reason sheanced for it. I've seen the

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<v Speaker 2>latter and that's why it was granted.

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<v Speaker 5>This morning the government received the final report of the

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<v Speaker 5>Royal Commission into the robodette scheme. The Government has publicly

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<v Speaker 5>released this report as soon as it was tabled this

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<v Speaker 5>morning and will now care.

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<v Speaker 2>So she's making referrals to we know from the report,

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<v Speaker 2>the National Anti Corruption Commission, the Australian Federal Police, the

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<v Speaker 2>Australian Public Service Commission, and an Act Legal Professional Standard.

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<v Speaker 5>SPOT recommends the referrals of individuals for civil action or

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<v Speaker 5>criminal prosecution. I recommend that this additional chapter remain sealed

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<v Speaker 5>and not be table with the rest of the report,

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<v Speaker 5>so as not to prejudice a conduct of any future

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<v Speaker 5>civil action or criminal prosecution.

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<v Speaker 2>She ended up making six referrals of six people to

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<v Speaker 2>the National Anti Corruption Commission for them to conduct their

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<v Speaker 2>own inquiries.

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<v Speaker 1>And so a year on from those referrals Catherine Holmes

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<v Speaker 1>made to the NAC last week we learned what would

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<v Speaker 1>ultimately happen to those people those referrals.

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<v Speaker 2>What happened yet so they said nothing would happen. It's

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<v Speaker 2>not a finding of no corruption, it's not a they've

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<v Speaker 2>been doing work behind closed doors. And decided there's nothing

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<v Speaker 2>to fore hear. What they've decided is that they're not

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<v Speaker 2>going to look into it.

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<v Speaker 4>After eleven months, the National Anti Corruption Commission has decided

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<v Speaker 4>not to launch its own investigation into the actions of

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<v Speaker 4>six public officials referred to it by the Robodet Royal Commission.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's taken them as long to come out with

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<v Speaker 2>this statement as it did for the entire rob Deet

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<v Speaker 2>Royal Commission to conduct its inquiry and release a one

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<v Speaker 2>thousand page report. So what they've said essentially is that

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<v Speaker 2>we don't have any power as a National Anti Coruption Commission,

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<v Speaker 2>so there'd be no value in us conducting an investigation

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<v Speaker 2>when one was already conducted by the Royal Commission. We

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<v Speaker 2>think the Royal Commission did a bang up job and

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<v Speaker 2>there's really nothing else for us to do. Noting that

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<v Speaker 2>they're out of the six public officials that were referred

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<v Speaker 2>to the KNAK, five of them are currently the subject

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<v Speaker 2>or have been the subject of a separate inquiry by

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<v Speaker 2>the Australian Public Service Commission. So essentially they've said that's

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<v Speaker 2>now the most appropriate avenue for some form of remedy

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<v Speaker 2>or sanction, and we don't want to. They actually use

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<v Speaker 2>this word, which I found quite incredible. They were conscious

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<v Speaker 2>of the risk of inconsistent outcomes and the oppression involved,

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<v Speaker 2>the depression in subjecting individuals to repeated investigations. So they

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<v Speaker 2>kind of threw up their hands and said, we're we're

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<v Speaker 2>out of the race.

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<v Speaker 1>And so Rick, If the KNACK has decided not to

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<v Speaker 1>investigate further, why did Catherine Holmes think these referrals were

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<v Speaker 1>so necessary? Why were they important enough, do you think

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<v Speaker 1>in her mind to delay the entire role commission.

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<v Speaker 2>She formed the view that, given what she knew about

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<v Speaker 2>the National Anti Corruption Commission legislation, given what she knew

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<v Speaker 2>about their remit, and given what she knew about the

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<v Speaker 2>conduct of the individuals involved in her inquiry, that the

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<v Speaker 2>KNACK was one of the body's best place to deal

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<v Speaker 2>with the individual accountability of people who were involved in

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<v Speaker 2>robodet Bearing in mind, of course, another thing that she

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<v Speaker 2>would have known, which is the Istrailed Public Service Commission

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<v Speaker 2>has next to no power to do anything of note.

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<v Speaker 2>What they do do and have done so far, I

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<v Speaker 2>might add, is investigate current and former public servants. But

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<v Speaker 2>they can only really issue sanctions against current public servants

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<v Speaker 2>and none of those people have lost their jobs in

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<v Speaker 2>the Australian public service. Something has been found against them

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<v Speaker 2>and they continue to act in those roles in the

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<v Speaker 2>Australian public Service. Commissioner Homes, no doubt, I don't want

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<v Speaker 2>to speak for her, but no doubt saw that there

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<v Speaker 2>was a need for the National Anti Corruption Commission to

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<v Speaker 2>value add to the investigations that we're done elsewhere. And

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<v Speaker 2>of course people will wonder, quite rightly, well, why didn't

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<v Speaker 2>Commissioner Cathern Holmes just make these findings herself? Why didn't

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<v Speaker 2>she say so and so did X in their corrupt

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<v Speaker 2>And it's precisely because she's very esteem judged that she

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<v Speaker 2>didn't do any of those things, because the Royal Commissioner

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<v Speaker 2>has a very specific purpose in the Australian context, which

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<v Speaker 2>is it's a fact finding thing. It is not the

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<v Speaker 2>job of a raw commission, as much as we might

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<v Speaker 2>wish it was. It is not the job in legislation

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<v Speaker 2>for them to make findings of guilt or criminal misconduct

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<v Speaker 2>or even civil misconduct in a corruption sense. It's their

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<v Speaker 2>job to lay out the facts and to make findings

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<v Speaker 2>about certain behaviors which can then form the basis of

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<v Speaker 2>other investigations and referrals, which is precisely what Gavin Holmes did.

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<v Speaker 2>And of course now the NACK says, not only are

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<v Speaker 2>they not going to look at it, but they're not

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<v Speaker 2>going to make any findings. And of course the prospect

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<v Speaker 2>now for individual accountability is vanishing on the horizon.

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<v Speaker 1>Rick, You've been speaking to a whole lot of people

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<v Speaker 1>since this decision from the NAC came out. How's it landed?

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<v Speaker 2>It's gutted people. I was talking to Jenny Miller not

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<v Speaker 2>long after the statement came out. She's Reese CAUs those

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<v Speaker 2>mother killed himself after receiving a robodette that he never owed.

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<v Speaker 2>She's been promised something at every turn, and she has

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<v Speaker 2>fought and fought, and she's been proved right at every turn,

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<v Speaker 2>right back when she was fighting in twenty seventeen for

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<v Speaker 2>answers to this, she knew, in her heart of hearts

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<v Speaker 2>that the robodet had something to do with it, because

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<v Speaker 2>Reese had put the debt letters on its fridge, and

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<v Speaker 2>she knew the money was weighing on his mind. And

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<v Speaker 2>she was gassed at every turn and every turn. Finally,

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<v Speaker 2>when somebody's bent their will, and you know, an outso

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<v Speaker 2>or commission or there's been inquiry or some kind of

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<v Speaker 2>fact finding mission and she's been proved right, but then

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<v Speaker 2>she's been denied justice. And it's happening again and again

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<v Speaker 2>and again. And we've ended the week with an update

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<v Speaker 2>from the Austraian Public Service Commission that seven public servants

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<v Speaker 2>have had fineh's made against them and they're still employed.

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<v Speaker 2>What in this system where I mean, can somebody show

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<v Speaker 2>me a single consequence of note? I can't see one.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean to me, this just looks like a flag

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<v Speaker 2>that says you can do a little bit of corruption,

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<v Speaker 2>you can do a little bit of harm, you can

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<v Speaker 2>do a lot of harm. And the worst that's going

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<v Speaker 2>to happen in some cases is you have to resign

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<v Speaker 2>from your four hundred thousand dollars a year job.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break the options available to the National Anti

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<v Speaker 1>Corruption Commission and why it didn't take them.

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<v Speaker 6>And can you tell us why are for thirty five

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<v Speaker 6>million dollars exercise we don't deserve to see who's being

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<v Speaker 6>referred as it include former ministers for exam. I understand

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<v Speaker 6>your question very well, and when I first read the

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<v Speaker 6>Commissioner Holmes's letter. I hate conflicting emotions because I have

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<v Speaker 6>lots of people out there who feel it will anyone

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<v Speaker 6>ever get punished, but to put not to elegant to

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<v Speaker 6>point on it to the people worry about that there

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<v Speaker 6>are adverse findings. There are bodies who are now being

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<v Speaker 6>asked with a brief of evidence to look at these matters.

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<v Speaker 6>There will be accountability, but I have to say one

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<v Speaker 6>of the big lessons of robo Dad is if you

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<v Speaker 6>do things without proper process, you might end up inadvertently

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<v Speaker 6>letting off some of the very people for whom we

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<v Speaker 6>want accountability.

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<v Speaker 1>Rick the Knack has decided not to pursue investigations that

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<v Speaker 1>were referred to it by the Royal Commission. But take

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<v Speaker 1>me through what it could have done, what the options were,

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<v Speaker 1>and also how it defines corruption.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's a critical question, Mirn, because a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of people seem to think that corruption is an old

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<v Speaker 2>fashioned brown paper bag receiving cash under a tree behind

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<v Speaker 2>Parliament House kind of thing. That is not the definition

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<v Speaker 2>of corruption that is used by the National Anti Corruption

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<v Speaker 2>Commission or that is enshrined in the legislation for the NAP.

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<v Speaker 2>The Commissioner has the following functions right, this is section seventeen.

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<v Speaker 2>Sorry to get really your technical, but I think it matters.

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<v Speaker 2>The Commissioner has the function to detect corrupt conduct, to

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<v Speaker 2>conduct preliminary investigations inter corruption issues or possible corruption issues,

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<v Speaker 2>to conduct corruption investigations into those issues that could involve

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<v Speaker 2>corrupt conduct that is serious also stemic, So to be

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<v Speaker 2>perfectly clear, they can investigate conduct of any person that

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<v Speaker 2>adversely affects a public officials honest or impartial exercise of

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<v Speaker 2>powers or the performance of their official duties. They can

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<v Speaker 2>investigate a public official that involves a breach of public trust.

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<v Speaker 2>That's critical for Robodot I would have thought. They can

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<v Speaker 2>investigate a public official that involves the abuse of office.

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<v Speaker 2>The Commission of Catherine has made findings that some politicians

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<v Speaker 2>did abuse the power of their office in her report.

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<v Speaker 2>And finally, the nat can investigate a public official or

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<v Speaker 2>form a public official that involves the misuse of documents

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<v Speaker 2>or information that they gained in their capacity as a

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<v Speaker 2>public official. Those are the definitions right, and they are

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<v Speaker 2>required to report on corruption investigations and any public inquiries

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<v Speaker 2>they hold, and if they need to, they can refer

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<v Speaker 2>corruption issues to Commonwealth agencies and state and territory government entities.

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<v Speaker 2>So of course we've got the KNACK saying, well, actually,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it's better for the other agencies and investigatory

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<v Speaker 2>bodies to do their investigations, and we're kind of finished here.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, the true pure value of the National Anti

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<v Speaker 2>Corruption Commission is the value of actually making a finding

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<v Speaker 2>of crop conduct. That is one of the key accountability

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<v Speaker 2>measures in public life is to make sure that when

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<v Speaker 2>people do the wrong thing, their behavior is labeled accordingly

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<v Speaker 2>so that the rest of us can make decisions. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think the KNACK has completely put that to the side,

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<v Speaker 2>or they've not thought about it at all, But that is,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a crucial feature of what they're meant to do.

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<v Speaker 1>And so what does this decision not to pursue this

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<v Speaker 1>particular amount to tell you about how the NAC sees

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<v Speaker 1>itself and understands its role.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it does baffle me, I must say, because

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<v Speaker 2>this is their first public kind of stake in the

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<v Speaker 2>ground saying this is who we are, and who we

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<v Speaker 2>are apparently is a National Anti Corruption Commission that is

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<v Speaker 2>anti corruption commissions Like they're essentially saying we don't have

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<v Speaker 2>a role to play in detecting, defining, determining corruption, you

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<v Speaker 2>don't have any power and therefore we're not going to

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<v Speaker 2>make any effort to look into this and actually do

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<v Speaker 2>the thing that we're charged with doing, which is detecting

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<v Speaker 2>corrupt conduct, defining corrupt conduct, and then putting it in

0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:16.760
<v Speaker 2>the public arena to warn others against engaging instantlar corrupt conduct.

0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:20.800
<v Speaker 2>But without those entities, without those bodies, you don't have

0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:25.680
<v Speaker 2>civic pressure on people who can do the wrong thing

0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:27.240
<v Speaker 2>and do do the wrong thing because they know they

0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:31.160
<v Speaker 2>won't get caught. I just, yeah, it boggles the mind

0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:34.400
<v Speaker 2>looking at that statement. It's kind of like, I don't know,

0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:36.160
<v Speaker 2>it's like a cattle farmer that won't sell cows, Like,

0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:37.640
<v Speaker 2>what is your job? What is the point of view?

0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:41.960
<v Speaker 2>They're just it doesn't make any sense to me.

0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:44.760
<v Speaker 5>Rick.

0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:48.640
<v Speaker 1>It's really common to hear politicians, television presenters, all kinds

0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:51.719
<v Speaker 1>of different people stand up now and call Robudet what

0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:54.520
<v Speaker 1>it was, a cruel or legal betrayal of Australians that

0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:55.960
<v Speaker 1>cost lives.

0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:01.600
<v Speaker 5>It was wrong, it was illegal, It should never have happened,

0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:04.120
<v Speaker 5>and it should never happen again.

0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:07.040
<v Speaker 1>Robodet will go down as one of the worst policies

0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:08.080
<v Speaker 1>in recent history.

0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:10.640
<v Speaker 6>They were literally shaken down by their own government, by

0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:13.480
<v Speaker 6>a government who didn't have the power to raise debt

0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:17.400
<v Speaker 6>notices against them, and in fact they did break the law.

0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:20.520
<v Speaker 1>But now we're in this situation where we might not

0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:24.400
<v Speaker 1>see a single person held accountable for that. Where are

0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:26.760
<v Speaker 1>those voices now?

0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:29.520
<v Speaker 2>So people will still get up and say it was

0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:31.440
<v Speaker 2>cruel and it was illegal, which it was. It was

0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:33.440
<v Speaker 2>not consistent with the law, and they knew that it

0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:36.000
<v Speaker 2>was illegal from the very beginning. And they will say

0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:38.680
<v Speaker 2>that it was a betrayal that cost lives more lives

0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:42.000
<v Speaker 2>than we will ever know, which is all true. And

0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:43.280
<v Speaker 2>I was thinking about it, and I'm like, well, what

0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:46.920
<v Speaker 2>do I say, because I don't think there's any value

0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:49.320
<v Speaker 2>in me being over the top emotional about it, because

0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:51.240
<v Speaker 2>people then will come back and say, well, let's think

0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:56.000
<v Speaker 2>about this rationally. So let's think about it rationally. You

0:14:56.040 --> 0:15:00.360
<v Speaker 2>cannot have an illegal scheme that affected for one hundred

0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:03.560
<v Speaker 2>and sixty thousand people and no people responsible. You cannot

0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:07.440
<v Speaker 2>have a scheme that required literally hundreds of people, hundreds

0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:10.480
<v Speaker 2>and hundreds of people to operate, dozens and dozens of

0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:15.080
<v Speaker 2>people in decision making Roles, who knew at least partly

0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:19.560
<v Speaker 2>that this scheme was not just illegal but mathematically inaccurate.

0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:22.320
<v Speaker 2>You cannot have a scheme under all of those conditions

0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:24.040
<v Speaker 2>and with all of those people involved, and have no

0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:28.000
<v Speaker 2>one actually held accountable. So a lot didn't exist when

0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:29.600
<v Speaker 2>Robot was happening. But what we have now is the

0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:33.200
<v Speaker 2>National Anticruption Commission. The KNACK was set up for a purpose,

0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:36.440
<v Speaker 2>which was to detect corupt conduct, and now doesn't seem

0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:39.560
<v Speaker 2>to want to do that on one of the easiest

0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:42.560
<v Speaker 2>cases it could possibly have, and one of the cases

0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:45.760
<v Speaker 2>where it was the most necessary. Because great, the Australian

0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:48.040
<v Speaker 2>Public Service Commission's going to flog people with a letters leave.

0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:55.760
<v Speaker 2>That's not justice, that's the public service investigating itself. You know,

0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:57.320
<v Speaker 2>people will get up and say it was a great betrayal,

0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:00.680
<v Speaker 2>and it was, but it's very hard to find someone

0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:02.920
<v Speaker 2>like a politician or a senior about seven to get

0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:05.840
<v Speaker 2>up and say, well, actually, the greater betrayal still is

0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:07.840
<v Speaker 2>that we have a system that refuses to acknowledge that

0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:11.440
<v Speaker 2>something went wrong, that wants to think that you know,

0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:14.880
<v Speaker 2>it was a few bad apples and everyone else is fine.

0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:17.000
<v Speaker 2>But then neither wants to do anything about the few

0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:21.080
<v Speaker 2>bad apples, nor change the architecture of the system in

0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:24.120
<v Speaker 2>any meaningful way, in any meaningful way whatsoever.

0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:28.240
<v Speaker 1>Rick, thanks so much for your time today, and thank

0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:31.200
<v Speaker 1>you also for your reporting on this over so many years,

0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:33.560
<v Speaker 1>because you've given a voice to so many people on

0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:36.800
<v Speaker 1>this story and your reporting's being critical, So thank you.

0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:38.320
<v Speaker 2>Thank fash I appreciate that.

0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:57.520
<v Speaker 1>Also in the news today, British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak

0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:01.600
<v Speaker 1>canceled opportunities for journalists to ask him questions during his

0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:05.119
<v Speaker 1>public appearances over the weekend after it was revealed it

0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:09.439
<v Speaker 1>decided to leave D Day commemorations early. Sunak left the

0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:12.560
<v Speaker 1>memorial marking eighty years since the invasion of Normandy and

0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:15.360
<v Speaker 1>the liberation of Europe from the Nazis so he could

0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:17.720
<v Speaker 1>be on time for a television interview where he made

0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:21.840
<v Speaker 1>the case for his reelection. And four hostages taken from

0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:24.600
<v Speaker 1>the Nova Music festival on October seven have been freed

0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:28.000
<v Speaker 1>and have been reunited with their families after an Israeli

0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:32.520
<v Speaker 1>operation in central Gaza on Saturday night local time. Airstrikes

0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:35.040
<v Speaker 1>and grand assaults in the area during the operation killed

0:17:35.040 --> 0:17:39.040
<v Speaker 1>between one hundred and two hundred and ten Palestinians, according

0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:42.600
<v Speaker 1>to statements from local health authorities. That's all from the

0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:45.560
<v Speaker 1>team at seven am for today. My name's Ashlan McGee.

0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:48.800
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for your company and I'll see you again tomorrow