1 00:00:03,630 --> 00:00:07,170 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. Something 2 00:00:07,170 --> 00:00:10,260 Sean Aylmer: very different today. My guest this morning is a maths 3 00:00:10,559 --> 00:00:14,130 Sean Aylmer: genius, simple as that. Professor Terence Tao was a child 4 00:00:14,130 --> 00:00:17,849 Sean Aylmer: prodigy in Australia who then completed his PhD in mathematics 5 00:00:18,119 --> 00:00:20,668 Sean Aylmer: at UCLA in the United States at the age of 6 00:00:20,670 --> 00:00:24,480 Sean Aylmer: 20. At 31, he received the Fields Medal regarded as 7 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,240 Sean Aylmer: the Nobel Prize of Mathematics, and has been the author 8 00:00:27,330 --> 00:00:31,230 Sean Aylmer: or co- author of more than 350 research papers and 9 00:00:31,230 --> 00:00:34,260 Sean Aylmer: 18 books. Students travel from around the world to learn 10 00:00:34,260 --> 00:00:37,020 Sean Aylmer: from him at UCLA. He's regarded as one of the 11 00:00:37,020 --> 00:00:40,949 Sean Aylmer: great mathematicians alive today, but he's on a mission to 12 00:00:40,950 --> 00:00:44,040 Sean Aylmer: simplify maths, to make it more accessible, and to show 13 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,069 Sean Aylmer: exactly how it can be used for problem solving and 14 00:00:47,070 --> 00:00:50,549 Sean Aylmer: creative thinking. He's recently been named Global Australian of the 15 00:00:50,549 --> 00:00:54,359 Sean Aylmer: Year for 2022, recognizing the influence of Australian expats who 16 00:00:54,359 --> 00:00:57,360 Sean Aylmer: are leading the way on the global stage. Professor Terence 17 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,970 Sean Aylmer: Tao joins me this morning. Professor Tao, welcome to Fear 18 00:00:59,970 --> 00:01:00,450 Sean Aylmer: and Greed. 19 00:01:00,930 --> 00:01:01,470 Terence Tao: Thank you. Nice to meet you. 20 00:01:02,070 --> 00:01:05,370 Sean Aylmer: That is quite an incredible story. You were studying university 21 00:01:05,370 --> 00:01:08,760 Sean Aylmer: level maths by the age of nine. When did you 22 00:01:09,509 --> 00:01:12,179 Sean Aylmer: realize that you were really good at maths? 23 00:01:12,540 --> 00:01:14,850 Terence Tao: Well, I've always enjoyed maths. Apparently when I was two 24 00:01:14,850 --> 00:01:17,459 Terence Tao: years old, this is before I actually could remember anything, 25 00:01:18,450 --> 00:01:21,420 Terence Tao: my parents told me that they caught me at friend's 26 00:01:21,420 --> 00:01:23,459 Terence Tao: place trying to teach some older kids, like four or 27 00:01:23,459 --> 00:01:27,030 Terence Tao: five, how to count using number blocks. And apparently I 28 00:01:27,030 --> 00:01:29,670 Terence Tao: had taught myself this from watching Sesame Street. 29 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:35,400 Sean Aylmer: Wow. Obviously you had a very accelerated maths education, but 30 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:39,360 Sean Aylmer: you learned it the traditional way. Counting blocks, watching Sesame 31 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:41,490 Sean Aylmer: Street, et cetera. Just probably younger than most of us, 32 00:01:41,670 --> 00:01:42,990 Sean Aylmer: but it was the traditional way. 33 00:01:43,110 --> 00:01:45,419 Terence Tao: Pretty much. My mother was a high school maths teacher 34 00:01:45,569 --> 00:01:47,549 Terence Tao: before she moved to Australia, and so she did teach 35 00:01:47,549 --> 00:01:49,920 Terence Tao: me a little bit of maths when I was growing 36 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:54,450 Terence Tao: up. But I devoured maths workbooks and so forth. I 37 00:01:54,450 --> 00:01:56,160 Terence Tao: remember when I was seven or eight, if I was 38 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,559 Terence Tao: getting rowdy or something, my parents would give me a 39 00:01:58,559 --> 00:02:00,660 Terence Tao: book of sums to do, and I just liked filling in 40 00:02:01,139 --> 00:02:05,639 Terence Tao: all the boxes. Seven plus eight equals... I always liked 41 00:02:05,699 --> 00:02:09,060 Terence Tao: numbers and symbols and things with a right answer and 42 00:02:09,060 --> 00:02:09,690 Terence Tao: a wrong answer. 43 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,780 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. What was that like growing up that good at 44 00:02:12,780 --> 00:02:15,240 Sean Aylmer: maths? Because what I really want to get on to 45 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:20,219 Sean Aylmer: is education, maths education in Australia, at school level and 46 00:02:20,219 --> 00:02:24,180 Sean Aylmer: also beyond. Undoubtedly, if Australia can be great in those 47 00:02:24,330 --> 00:02:27,660 Sean Aylmer: STEM subjects, Australia can be great as a nation. I 48 00:02:27,660 --> 00:02:30,270 Sean Aylmer: think no one's going to dispute that, and I think 49 00:02:30,389 --> 00:02:32,669 Sean Aylmer: part of what you are trying to do is help 50 00:02:32,669 --> 00:02:36,419 Sean Aylmer: that along. But as an individual in a country like 51 00:02:36,419 --> 00:02:39,599 Sean Aylmer: Australia, going to high school, being good at maths probably 52 00:02:39,599 --> 00:02:41,939 Sean Aylmer: wasn't cool, shall I say, Professor Tao? 53 00:02:42,330 --> 00:02:44,040 Terence Tao: Well, I was too young to really notice what was 54 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:47,580 Terence Tao: cool and what was not. But my maths teachers, I 55 00:02:47,580 --> 00:02:50,010 Terence Tao: think, quickly realized that the material they were teaching in 56 00:02:50,010 --> 00:02:52,590 Terence Tao: my year was not advanced enough for me. So they 57 00:02:52,590 --> 00:02:53,940 Terence Tao: talked to my parents and the parents talked to the 58 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,819 Terence Tao: headmaster and so forth, and they eventually arranged this complicated 59 00:02:56,820 --> 00:02:59,669 Terence Tao: scheme where I would take some classes in my home 60 00:02:59,669 --> 00:03:01,770 Terence Tao: year, and then I would take some advanced maths and 61 00:03:01,770 --> 00:03:05,550 Terence Tao: science classes three, four, five years ahead. Which meant that 62 00:03:05,550 --> 00:03:07,950 Terence Tao: when I was in primary school, I would take some 63 00:03:07,950 --> 00:03:10,050 Terence Tao: classes at the local high school. And when I was in high school, I 64 00:03:10,050 --> 00:03:13,200 Terence Tao: would take some classes at the local uni. So that worked 65 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,380 Terence Tao: out well for me. So I was in classes that 66 00:03:16,859 --> 00:03:18,419 Terence Tao: most of the other kids were maybe four or five years 67 00:03:18,419 --> 00:03:20,490 Terence Tao: older than me. I remember when I first took Year 68 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,370 Terence Tao: 12 maths, they had to keep a special cushion in 69 00:03:23,370 --> 00:03:26,850 Terence Tao: the classroom, because I couldn't reach the desk without it. 70 00:03:27,059 --> 00:03:31,529 Sean Aylmer: What a great story. So just going from that, you 71 00:03:31,530 --> 00:03:35,099 Sean Aylmer: are obviously a true believer in mathematics. How important is 72 00:03:35,100 --> 00:03:39,870 Sean Aylmer: it that Australia gets good at maths and science and 73 00:03:39,870 --> 00:03:41,460 Sean Aylmer: engineering and technology? 74 00:03:41,790 --> 00:03:44,789 Terence Tao: Well, I think maths is now pervading every area of 75 00:03:44,790 --> 00:03:48,569 Terence Tao: human endeavor, really. Like for example, if you take advertising. It used to 76 00:03:48,570 --> 00:03:51,179 Terence Tao: be that if you want to create a good ad, 77 00:03:51,179 --> 00:03:54,629 Terence Tao: you can eyeball it and maybe do a few surveys 78 00:03:54,660 --> 00:03:57,420 Terence Tao: to see whether your ad is resonating with this target 79 00:03:57,420 --> 00:03:59,880 Terence Tao: audience and so forth. But now it's become a really 80 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:02,939 Terence Tao: precise science. You can do all kinds of machine learning 81 00:04:02,940 --> 00:04:06,480 Terence Tao: and data crunching and you can put out test versions 82 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:10,109 Terence Tao: of your ad, slightly different changes in different audiences. It's 83 00:04:10,109 --> 00:04:12,570 Terence Tao: kind of scary actually, just how much more effective it 84 00:04:12,570 --> 00:04:16,799 Terence Tao: becomes. But that's just one example. I think every field 85 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,010 Terence Tao: has become more quantitative, and you need people who have 86 00:04:20,010 --> 00:04:21,870 Terence Tao: some idea of how numbers work. 87 00:04:23,490 --> 00:04:25,498 Sean Aylmer: As we become more quantitative, which is a great way 88 00:04:25,500 --> 00:04:29,219 Sean Aylmer: of putting it, it means that we need people to 89 00:04:29,219 --> 00:04:32,130 Sean Aylmer: understand numbers, as you put it. Do you think the 90 00:04:32,130 --> 00:04:34,800 Sean Aylmer: way we teach maths at the moment in primary school, 91 00:04:35,130 --> 00:04:37,589 Sean Aylmer: in high school can get us there? Or do we 92 00:04:37,589 --> 00:04:38,880 Sean Aylmer: need to change the way we do it? 93 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,250 Terence Tao: I think we do need to move with the times. 94 00:04:41,969 --> 00:04:44,189 Terence Tao: There's a traditional list of topics in mathematics. So there's 95 00:04:44,488 --> 00:04:47,939 Terence Tao: arithmetic, and then there's algebra, and there's calculus, and trigonometry 96 00:04:47,940 --> 00:04:52,650 Terence Tao: and so forth. And these are still important. But nowadays, a 97 00:04:52,650 --> 00:04:54,270 Terence Tao: lot of maths used in the real world, we use 98 00:04:54,330 --> 00:04:58,830 Terence Tao: statistics, we use probability, there's something called discrete maths. The type of maths 99 00:04:59,130 --> 00:05:01,710 Terence Tao: that shows up is a little bit different. Already at 100 00:05:01,710 --> 00:05:06,029 Terence Tao: the uni level, the curriculums are slowly changing. At the 101 00:05:06,029 --> 00:05:09,029 Terence Tao: primary school level, I'm not sure. Part of the problem 102 00:05:09,029 --> 00:05:11,760 Terence Tao: is that the teachers won't have advanced maths training themselves 103 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,900 Terence Tao: often. So it's the teachers that really make all the difference. 104 00:05:16,020 --> 00:05:18,150 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Professor Tao. We'll be back in a 105 00:05:18,150 --> 00:05:28,080 Sean Aylmer: minute. I'm speaking to Professor Terence Tao, mathematician and Global 106 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:32,279 Sean Aylmer: Australian of the Year. I have children in high school 107 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:34,229 Sean Aylmer: at the moment, and when I went through high school, 108 00:05:34,230 --> 00:05:37,229 Sean Aylmer: maths was my thing, not English. You were either maths or English, 109 00:05:37,230 --> 00:05:39,330 Sean Aylmer: and maths was my thing. It's funny, my kids are 110 00:05:39,330 --> 00:05:44,969 Sean Aylmer: much more English oriented, and their ability in maths is 111 00:05:45,060 --> 00:05:49,650 Sean Aylmer: pretty much totally proportional to the teacher, whether or not 112 00:05:49,650 --> 00:05:53,760 Sean Aylmer: they liked the teacher. And it's a worry, in a sense. 113 00:05:54,059 --> 00:05:59,130 Terence Tao: Yeah, well, that's our culture. In some other countries, parents 114 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,299 Terence Tao: put more pressure on their kids. Like in Asia where 115 00:06:03,300 --> 00:06:06,720 Terence Tao: these tiger mom stereotypes, where if you get anything less 116 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:10,050 Terence Tao: than an A or something in your class, there's a disaster. One 117 00:06:10,050 --> 00:06:12,928 Terence Tao: thing I've certainly noticed when teaching in Australia is that 118 00:06:13,110 --> 00:06:15,570 Terence Tao: kids follow their interests. And if they find that the 119 00:06:15,570 --> 00:06:18,330 Terence Tao: teacher is boring or something, you can't just tell them, " 120 00:06:18,510 --> 00:06:21,180 Terence Tao: Oh, this would be good for you later." It has 121 00:06:21,180 --> 00:06:24,779 Terence Tao: to appeal to them. My favorite teacher in high school 122 00:06:24,779 --> 00:06:29,490 Terence Tao: was my physics teacher. He cracked jokes and he turned 123 00:06:29,490 --> 00:06:31,979 Terence Tao: all his exams into stories. He was obsessed with ants, 124 00:06:31,980 --> 00:06:36,150 Terence Tao: actually. At least in his exams. So all the stories 125 00:06:36,150 --> 00:06:38,370 Terence Tao: would be like, there's an ant climbing this hill at 126 00:06:38,370 --> 00:06:41,039 Terence Tao: a certain slope, at a certain speed. What happens to 127 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,320 Terence Tao: the ant? And so forth. I actually looked forward to 128 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,569 Terence Tao: his exams just to read the stories. 129 00:06:45,779 --> 00:06:50,789 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. What he's doing is doing something very identifiable with 130 00:06:50,910 --> 00:06:54,119 Sean Aylmer: what can be a fairly abstract art, which is maths, 131 00:06:54,300 --> 00:06:58,350 Sean Aylmer: making it quite identifiable to someone sitting there in a classroom. 132 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:02,490 Terence Tao: Right. Yeah. It's all too easy to view maths as 133 00:07:02,490 --> 00:07:05,820 Terence Tao: some sort of sorcery. We have all these formulas that 134 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,159 Terence Tao: almost seem like magic spells from a Harry Potter movie, 135 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,699 Terence Tao: like the quadratic formula or something. And that can make 136 00:07:11,699 --> 00:07:13,800 Terence Tao: you kind of terrified when you use maths and you're 137 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:15,660 Terence Tao: worried that you're going to get the spell slightly wrong 138 00:07:15,660 --> 00:07:17,850 Terence Tao: and it will be a big disaster. If you want 139 00:07:17,850 --> 00:07:19,380 Terence Tao: to make something your own, you have to play with 140 00:07:19,380 --> 00:07:22,530 Terence Tao: it. So at home I would play with my calculator 141 00:07:22,530 --> 00:07:25,379 Terence Tao: and try to find patterns in numbers and so forth. 142 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:28,409 Terence Tao: Once you tinker with something, then it doesn't seem scary. 143 00:07:28,709 --> 00:07:31,710 Terence Tao: So I guess it's just to make it seem familiar 144 00:07:32,070 --> 00:07:33,390 Terence Tao: and connected with the real world. 145 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,620 Sean Aylmer: Professor Tao, earlier this year you started teaching an online 146 00:07:37,620 --> 00:07:42,840 Sean Aylmer: masterclass on mathematical thinking, how to apply it to problem solving. Can you 147 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:44,520 Sean Aylmer: give us a taste of what that covers? 148 00:07:44,759 --> 00:07:47,939 Terence Tao: Yeah. So it's about two hours long, into little bite- 149 00:07:47,940 --> 00:07:50,400 Terence Tao: sized pieces of 10 minutes of me talking and maybe 150 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,400 Terence Tao: working through some, not so much maths problems, there's no 151 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:58,049 Terence Tao: equations or anything scary. But just to give one example. 152 00:07:58,050 --> 00:08:00,690 Terence Tao: So one of the things I talk about in the 153 00:08:00,690 --> 00:08:03,630 Terence Tao: class is how mathematicians use analogy. If you have a 154 00:08:03,630 --> 00:08:06,660 Terence Tao: problem which is alien and you don't know how to 155 00:08:06,660 --> 00:08:09,930 Terence Tao: start, if you can find an equivalent problem in a 156 00:08:09,930 --> 00:08:12,360 Terence Tao: different context, but it's more familiar to you, you can 157 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,719 Terence Tao: solve that problem. So for example, the US Army in 158 00:08:15,719 --> 00:08:19,199 Terence Tao: the 50s had this issue. They wanted to test soldiers 159 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,539 Terence Tao: for, I think, syphilis. And there was a blood test 160 00:08:21,540 --> 00:08:25,020 Terence Tao: for this, but it was quite expensive. So a hundred soldiers 161 00:08:25,020 --> 00:08:28,260 Terence Tao: administering a hundred blood tests for syphilis was very expensive. 162 00:08:28,290 --> 00:08:30,390 Terence Tao: And they wanted to know if there was a more 163 00:08:30,390 --> 00:08:32,700 Terence Tao: efficient way to do it. They eventually realized that what 164 00:08:32,700 --> 00:08:35,759 Terence Tao: they should do is what is called group testing. Instead of testing 165 00:08:35,759 --> 00:08:39,780 Terence Tao: each sample separately, they mix the samples, maybe 10 or 166 00:08:39,780 --> 00:08:43,200 Terence Tao: 20 samples together at a time, and test the entire 167 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:45,630 Terence Tao: group as a whole, as a batch to see if 168 00:08:45,630 --> 00:08:48,270 Terence Tao: one of the soldiers in that group had the disease. 169 00:08:48,450 --> 00:08:50,400 Terence Tao: And then if they do, you can just focus on 170 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,160 Terence Tao: that group and then subdivide it again. This problem is 171 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:57,539 Terence Tao: equivalent to that of guessing a number. So suppose one 172 00:08:57,540 --> 00:09:01,020 Terence Tao: of these 100 soldiers has a disease, but you don't 173 00:09:01,020 --> 00:09:03,570 Terence Tao: know which one. That's like you have a number from 174 00:09:03,570 --> 00:09:06,780 Terence Tao: one to 100 and you have to guess what it is. And 175 00:09:06,900 --> 00:09:09,480 Terence Tao: that's a game of 20 questions. That's something that we know how to 176 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:11,639 Terence Tao: do. I think there's even these board games, like Guess 177 00:09:11,639 --> 00:09:15,389 Terence Tao: Who? So if you have a number from one to 100, you can ask, " Is it 178 00:09:15,750 --> 00:09:18,088 Terence Tao: less than 50?" And that corresponds to taking the first 179 00:09:18,090 --> 00:09:20,550 Terence Tao: 50 soldiers and just testing that as a batch. And 180 00:09:20,550 --> 00:09:21,990 Terence Tao: then if it is less than 50, you ask, " Is 181 00:09:21,990 --> 00:09:24,750 Terence Tao: it bigger than 25? Less than 25?" And it turns out that 182 00:09:24,750 --> 00:09:26,940 Terence Tao: you can basically identify the people with the disease in only 183 00:09:27,059 --> 00:09:28,679 Terence Tao: seven or so tests this way. 184 00:09:29,370 --> 00:09:32,699 Sean Aylmer: Okay, Professor Tao, I want to bring this to business. 185 00:09:33,089 --> 00:09:36,389 Sean Aylmer: What can business learn from this way of thinking, this 186 00:09:36,389 --> 00:09:37,890 Sean Aylmer: way of thinking about mathematics? 187 00:09:38,220 --> 00:09:40,468 Terence Tao: So every so often, sometimes there are these business fads, 188 00:09:40,740 --> 00:09:43,980 Terence Tao: like these (inaudible) models and so forth, where people 189 00:09:43,980 --> 00:09:47,309 Terence Tao: try to be quantitative and actually not just follow their 190 00:09:47,309 --> 00:09:50,309 Terence Tao: instinct, but try to make some precise process to arrive 191 00:09:50,309 --> 00:09:54,179 Terence Tao: at their decision. And it's well intentioned, but I think sometimes 192 00:09:54,330 --> 00:09:59,309 Terence Tao: these formulas, they're teaching maths where you're taught the formulas, 193 00:09:59,309 --> 00:10:01,470 Terence Tao: but you're not really taught why they work. So you have 194 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:03,480 Terence Tao: this 12- step procedure to arrive at a decision and 195 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,869 Terence Tao: you just follow all the steps. But sometimes in some 196 00:10:06,870 --> 00:10:10,799 Terence Tao: context, these steps are not actually relevant. But if you 197 00:10:10,799 --> 00:10:14,550 Terence Tao: don't actually have quantitative training and quantitative thinking, you can't 198 00:10:14,550 --> 00:10:18,990 Terence Tao: really examine the assumptions, and you're just following these rules because 199 00:10:18,990 --> 00:10:22,620 Terence Tao: that's what some authority told you to do. So having 200 00:10:22,740 --> 00:10:25,980 Terence Tao: quantitative thinking skills, it's a toolkit that allows you to 201 00:10:26,730 --> 00:10:28,710 Terence Tao: understand why things are the way they are. 202 00:10:29,219 --> 00:10:30,569 Sean Aylmer: Which is good for every business. 203 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:30,840 Terence Tao: Yeah. Yeah. 204 00:10:31,470 --> 00:10:33,570 Sean Aylmer: Professor Tao, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 205 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:34,980 Terence Tao: Yeah, no, you're welcome. 206 00:10:35,670 --> 00:10:39,270 Sean Aylmer: That was Professor Terence Tao, mathematician and Global Australian of 207 00:10:39,270 --> 00:10:42,360 Sean Aylmer: the Year. This is a Fear and Greed daily interview. 208 00:10:42,570 --> 00:10:45,270 Sean Aylmer: Remember, this information is general in nature and you should 209 00:10:45,270 --> 00:10:48,630 Sean Aylmer: seek professional advice before making any investment decisions. Join us 210 00:10:48,660 --> 00:10:50,640 Sean Aylmer: every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, 211 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:54,360 Sean Aylmer: Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.