WEBVTT - The Trial: Two arguments to ignore

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<v Speaker 1>Justice Christopher Bill got into the thick of it today

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<v Speaker 1>in his charge to the jury in the trial of

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<v Speaker 1>Aaron Patterson. He took a magnifying glass to the evidence

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<v Speaker 1>as he stepped through the testimony of more than a

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<v Speaker 1>dozen witnesses, summarized the lawyer's arguments, and even instructed the

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<v Speaker 1>jury to disregard two points made by the Crown. We'll

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<v Speaker 1>talk about this and more of what he said in

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<v Speaker 1>court today. I'm Brooke Greebert Craig, and this is the

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<v Speaker 1>Mushroom Cook. We have just finished day thirty eight of

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<v Speaker 1>Aaron Patterson's murder trial, and as always I'm joined by

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<v Speaker 1>my colleague, court reporter Laura PLOSSELLA Hey, Brook, how are you.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm good, Thanks, how.

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<v Speaker 2>Are you not bad?

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<v Speaker 1>Let's start now. The first thing that Justice Bill did

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<v Speaker 1>this morning was give the jurors an update on the

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<v Speaker 1>trial timeline.

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<v Speaker 2>He's provided them with a few updates this week, but

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<v Speaker 2>this one felt a lot more definitive. He told them

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<v Speaker 2>that his charge would continue for the rest of today, Thursday,

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<v Speaker 2>go into Tomorrow Friday, and then he would finally finish

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<v Speaker 2>on Monday. By that stage, there'll be two jurors. He'll

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<v Speaker 2>be balloted off. So right now, to remind our listeners,

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<v Speaker 2>there are fourteen jurors. After we lost one earlier in

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<v Speaker 2>the trial, two will be balloted off to leave us

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<v Speaker 2>with the magic number of twelve, and then they'll start

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<v Speaker 2>their deliberations. But once they're done for the day, they

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<v Speaker 2>won't go home. They'll be busted to local accommodation to

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<v Speaker 2>be sequestered, and then they'll return the next day to

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<v Speaker 2>the Latrobe Valley Law Courts to continue deliberating.

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<v Speaker 1>So this will all be taking place in week ten

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<v Speaker 1>of the trial.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, and I really can't believe that at any stage

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<v Speaker 2>we thought this would actually just go for five weeks.

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<v Speaker 1>Crazy. So Justice Bill then returned to the topic of

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<v Speaker 1>incriminating conduct today.

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<v Speaker 2>He did so. We ran through the list yesterday of

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<v Speaker 2>all of the alleged incriminating conduct that is being put

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<v Speaker 2>forward by the prosecution. Justice Bill only got a chance

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<v Speaker 2>yesterday to make his way through one of those points,

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<v Speaker 2>and he spent the rest of the day making his

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<v Speaker 2>way through the list. This involves a lot of summary.

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<v Speaker 2>He is essentially summarizing up to seven weeks of evidence

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<v Speaker 2>and then turning to summaries of the prosecution and the

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<v Speaker 2>defense arguments. So today, when we make our way through

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<v Speaker 2>it ourselves, a lot of this will probably sound familiar

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<v Speaker 2>to our listeners. But this is Justice Beale really preparing

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<v Speaker 2>the jury for their deliberations. There is so much evidence

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<v Speaker 2>in this case that the judge's charge involves these summations

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<v Speaker 2>to make sure they're best placed when it is time

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<v Speaker 2>to commence those important deliberations.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's move to the first point. He began summarizing

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<v Speaker 1>the evidence relating to Aaron allegedly lying about using dried

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<v Speaker 1>mushrooms from an Asian grosser in the beef welling to

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<v Speaker 1>mill that she cooked on July twenty nine, twenty twenty three.

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<v Speaker 2>This was the point that Justice Beal spent the longest

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<v Speaker 2>on today. I think he finished with this topic just

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<v Speaker 2>before lunchtime, and the reason for this was he essentially

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<v Speaker 2>had to go through the evidence of almost a dozen witnesses.

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<v Speaker 2>There were a lot of people Erin spoke to in

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<v Speaker 2>the days after the lunch about the source of the mushrooms.

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<v Speaker 2>She was speaking to doctors at Lingatha Hospital. She was

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<v Speaker 2>speaking to Senior Public Health Advisor Sally ane Atkinson, and

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<v Speaker 2>speaking to child protection worker Katrina Cripps for the most part.

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<v Speaker 2>All of these witnesses testified that Aaron told them she

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<v Speaker 2>used button mushrooms from a local Woolworths and dried mushrooms

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<v Speaker 2>from an Asian grocer, but she could not remember the

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<v Speaker 2>exact location of that shop. Justice Bill also summarized the

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<v Speaker 2>evidence from Erin and how she realized in the days

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<v Speaker 2>after the lunch that mushrooms she had foraged and dehydrated

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<v Speaker 2>may have ended up in a container with the dried

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<v Speaker 2>mushrooms from the Asian grocer. This was the container, she

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<v Speaker 2>said she grabbed and tipped into the mushroom duct cell,

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<v Speaker 2>believing at the time that it only contained the dried

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<v Speaker 2>mushrooms from the Asian grocer.

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<v Speaker 1>Justice Build then outlined what the prosecution alleges. Here's what

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<v Speaker 1>he said. It's his words, but not his voice.

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<v Speaker 3>The prosecution argued. She sat on her hands, slow to

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<v Speaker 3>respond to the Department of Health, not responsive at times

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<v Speaker 3>giving evidence. She appeared to have a remarkable memory. She

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<v Speaker 3>could remember the twenty eighth of April twenty twenty three

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<v Speaker 3>was a Friday and not a Monday, but she couldn't

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<v Speaker 3>recall the shop or even the suburb. Beggar's belief. He

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<v Speaker 3>went on Most importantly, they argue, no one else got sick.

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<v Speaker 3>Monash Council had no complaints. The department had no reports

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<v Speaker 3>of people falling ill. And why would she dehydrate already

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<v Speaker 3>dried mushrooms. She told you the dehydrated mushrooms weren't as crisp,

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<v Speaker 3>so she whacked them into the dehydrator. They argued that

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<v Speaker 3>was a ridiculous lie to keep the possibility that an

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<v Speaker 3>Asian store was the source of death cap mushrooms.

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<v Speaker 1>Justice Bill then told the jury that the defense claims

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<v Speaker 1>the prosecution cherry picked their evidence.

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<v Speaker 3>It was argued the prosecution ignored the nuances of human behavior.

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<v Speaker 3>They argued, she was consistent with where the mushrooms came from.

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<v Speaker 3>She had many conversations with many people, He went on.

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<v Speaker 3>But things get recounted and it goes down the line.

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<v Speaker 3>Big details get minimized, forgotten, altered. There were approximately twenty

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<v Speaker 3>one people who spoke to Aaron Patterson in twenty four hours,

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<v Speaker 3>and memory is not a video recording. Time plays a part.

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<v Speaker 3>Delays can affect recollection of events. None of the witnesses,

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<v Speaker 3>including Aaron Patterson, is immune. Recollection can be unreliable even

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<v Speaker 3>when a person is trying to be honest.

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<v Speaker 1>Justice Bill then moved on to summarize the evidence relating

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<v Speaker 1>to Aaron allegedly lying about feeding her children the leftovers

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<v Speaker 1>of the beef willing to mill with the mushrooms and

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<v Speaker 1>pastry scraped off.

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<v Speaker 2>Just like he did with the previous allegation. He took

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<v Speaker 2>the jury to the evidence of sir witnesses. Here it

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<v Speaker 2>was the evidence from Simon Patterson, Erin's estranged husband, and

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<v Speaker 2>her two children. He also brought them back to her

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<v Speaker 2>evidence as well. He said that Erin testified that she

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<v Speaker 2>scraped off the mushrooms and pastry from the six beef

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<v Speaker 2>wellington she prepared before serving the meat to her children

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<v Speaker 2>with mashed potato and beans. He also reminded the jury

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<v Speaker 2>that Erin said that the leftovers found in her outside

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<v Speaker 2>bin comprised the scraped off mushrooms and pastry as well

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<v Speaker 2>as the remainder of her beef wellington that she didn't

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<v Speaker 2>eat at the lunch. Justice Bial then took the jury

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<v Speaker 2>to the evidence of Erin's son, who told an investigator

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<v Speaker 2>that his mum said to him and his sister that

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<v Speaker 2>night that Don and Gale were unwell. He remembers his mum,

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<v Speaker 2>saying to him that she thought the cause of the

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<v Speaker 2>illness could have been the lunch, Justice Bill said.

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<v Speaker 1>The prosecution argued that, considering the children did not experience

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<v Speaker 1>any symptoms, her story about feeding them the leftovers must

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<v Speaker 1>be a lie to cover her tracks. He also added

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<v Speaker 1>that the prosecution had questioned why Aaron would feed the

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<v Speaker 1>leftovers to her children when there was evidence to suggest

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<v Speaker 1>she knew by that stage on July thirty, that Don

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<v Speaker 1>and Gale were unwell.

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<v Speaker 2>It was at this stage that Justice Biele actually told

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<v Speaker 2>the jury to disregard two arguments made by Crown Prosecutor

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<v Speaker 2>Nnette Rodgers in her closing address. The first argument related

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<v Speaker 2>to the fact that doctor Rogers asserted that, even though

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<v Speaker 2>they were scraped off, the toxins from the death caps

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<v Speaker 2>would have penetrated the meat that Aaron served her children.

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<v Speaker 3>Doctor Rogers overstated what the evidence was, So you disregard

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<v Speaker 3>that argument that the amatoxins penetrated the meat. It's not

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<v Speaker 3>necessarily so, Justice Beale said.

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<v Speaker 2>The second argument related to the fact that doctor Rogers

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<v Speaker 2>asserted that the children would have experienced symptoms if they

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<v Speaker 2>had eaten the leftovers of the six beef Wellington, but

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<v Speaker 2>he told the jury no expert witness was asked whether

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<v Speaker 2>they would have expected the children to have experienced these

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<v Speaker 2>symptoms after eating the meat with the mushrooms and pastry

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<v Speaker 2>scraped off.

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<v Speaker 3>You have no expert evidence as to whether that would

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<v Speaker 3>be the case, and so I direct you to disregard

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<v Speaker 3>the argument. You would be speculating if you would go

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<v Speaker 3>down that path.

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<v Speaker 1>Justice Bill said. The defense argued that if Aaron knew

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<v Speaker 1>there were death caps in the meal, why would she

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<v Speaker 1>tell people leftovers existed at all? The defense said it

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<v Speaker 1>made no sense on the prosecution case that Aaron discarded

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<v Speaker 1>the meat of the six beef Wellington and put the

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<v Speaker 1>rest in her outside bin.

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<v Speaker 3>Why get rid of meat but keep the mushroom, paste

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<v Speaker 3>and pastry? Why put the pastry in the binners a

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<v Speaker 3>deliberate ruse. The simple explanation is the much more likely explanation,

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<v Speaker 3>She scraped off the paste and fed the meat to

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<v Speaker 3>her children.

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<v Speaker 1>Justice Bill then summarized the evidence relating to Aarin allegedly

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<v Speaker 1>refusing to obtain treatment for her children.

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<v Speaker 2>He took the jury to the evidence of witnesses from

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<v Speaker 2>lean Gatha Hospital, including doctor Veronica Foote and nurse Carlie Ashton,

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<v Speaker 2>as well as the evidence of Erin. Once again, he said,

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<v Speaker 2>the prosecution argued that Erin was reluctant to have her

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<v Speaker 2>children assessed because she knew that they had not consumed

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<v Speaker 2>death cat mushrooms. But on the other hand, he said,

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<v Speaker 2>the defense argued that Miss Ashton was wrong when she

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<v Speaker 2>said she found out that Erin's children had consumed the

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<v Speaker 2>leftovers on her first presentation to the hospital. He said.

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<v Speaker 2>The defense claimed that her memory of this was inconsistent

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<v Speaker 2>with the evidence of her colleagues, who said that they

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<v Speaker 2>found out that Erin's children had eaten the leftovers when

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<v Speaker 2>Erin returned to hospital later that morning. On July thirty one,

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<v Speaker 2>Justice Bill said the defense argued that when Erin returned

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<v Speaker 2>to hospital and was told that the toxins could have

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<v Speaker 2>penetrated the meat and that her children might be in danger,

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<v Speaker 2>that she made arrangements for them to be brought to

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<v Speaker 2>hospital straightaway.

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<v Speaker 1>Justice Bell moved on to some the evidence relating to

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<v Speaker 1>Erin discarding her dehydrator at Kunwarra Tip on August two.

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<v Speaker 2>It is worth noting that Erin has admitted to dumping

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<v Speaker 2>her dehydrata, so this isn't alleged conduct, but the defense

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<v Speaker 2>argued that it shouldn't be used as incriminating conduct. Justice

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<v Speaker 2>Bell reminded the jury that Aaron testified that she panicked

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<v Speaker 2>after she said Simon accused her of poisoning his parents

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<v Speaker 2>with the dehydrater. Eron told the jury she was scared

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<v Speaker 2>she would be blamed for making everyone sick, and so

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<v Speaker 2>she took her dehydrata to the tip you mentioned brook

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<v Speaker 2>and dumped it there. Justice Bill brought the jury back

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<v Speaker 2>to the four deceptions alleged by the prosecution in its

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<v Speaker 2>closing address, including the sustained cover up, which did involve

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<v Speaker 2>erin getting rid of the appliance, he said. The prosecution argued, though,

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<v Speaker 2>that the panic Erin said she was experiencing did not

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<v Speaker 2>explain the extensive and prolonged cover up she ended up

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<v Speaker 2>embarking on.

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<v Speaker 1>But on the other hand, Bill said, the defense argued

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<v Speaker 1>that if Aaron was planning a murder, she would have

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<v Speaker 1>disposed of the dehydrator much earlier.

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<v Speaker 3>She disposed of it when she did, Mister Mandy argued

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<v Speaker 3>because she panicked and people would wrongly think that she

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<v Speaker 3>poisoned them poisoned the lunch guests deliberately.

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<v Speaker 1>Justice Bill then turned to the evidence relating to Aarin

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<v Speaker 1>resetting Phone B multiple times, providing police phone B instead

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<v Speaker 1>of Phone A, and lying about her phone number ending

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<v Speaker 1>in eight three five. During her record of interview.

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<v Speaker 2>He reminded the jury that the prosecution alleged that Aaron

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<v Speaker 2>concealed Phone A, her usual phone, from police during a

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<v Speaker 2>search of her house, and instead handed over Phone B,

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<v Speaker 2>a dummy phone which she factory reset multiple times. He said,

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<v Speaker 2>the prosecution argued that Erin concealed Phone A because she

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<v Speaker 2>knew it would implicate her in the deliberate poisoning of

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<v Speaker 2>her guests, but alternatively, he said, the defense argued that

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<v Speaker 2>Aaron would not have gone to the trouble of setting

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<v Speaker 2>up Phone B as a dummy phone, since it would

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<v Speaker 2>have been much easier for her to factory reset Phone

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<v Speaker 2>A and simply discard it straight after the lunch.

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<v Speaker 1>Justice Bill added that Aaron testified that Phone A was

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<v Speaker 1>not seized during the search and was left on a

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<v Speaker 1>window sill untouched by police. She also testified that she

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<v Speaker 1>set up phone B because Phone A was damaged and

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<v Speaker 1>she wanted to change phone numbers after Simon accused her

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<v Speaker 1>of poisoning his parents.

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<v Speaker 2>Referring to Erin's testimony, Justice Bill said that the defense

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<v Speaker 2>argued that the prosecution was coming up with convoluted theories

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<v Speaker 2>for why there was an absence of evidence, and the

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<v Speaker 2>explanations that Erin provided were the most reasonable.

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<v Speaker 1>And with that, Justiceville told the jury he will continue

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<v Speaker 1>to summarize the remainder of the alleged incriminating conduct tomorrow.

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<v Speaker 2>And then he'll move on with the rest of his charge.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks Laura, see you then

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<v Speaker 3>Four