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Speaker 1: Apote production.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to real crime at Adam Shand, I'm your host,

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Speaker 2: Adam Shand how many people did Ivan Malatt really kill?

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Speaker 2: Convicted backpacker killer Ivan Mulatt has died in prison, but

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Speaker 2: detectives believe the true number of his victims may never

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Speaker 2: be known. He was convicted of seven, but the number

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Speaker 2: must be much higher. I was recently told that after

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Speaker 2: Malatt was convicted of the seven backpacker murders between nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety nine and nineteen ninety two, he told his cell

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Speaker 2: mate that the number was more like thirty seven. Former

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Speaker 2: detectives have long suggested Mlatt may be linked to dozens

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Speaker 2: of other unsolved murders across Australia. Maybe he'd lost count.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure the number is much higher. The description of

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Speaker 2: a man and a black hat with a handlebar mustache

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Speaker 2: wielding a twenty two rifle pops up in so many

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Speaker 2: unsold cases all over Australia. Police documents show similarities between

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Speaker 2: the Bilanglow murders and cold cases in Victoria and Queensland

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Speaker 2: dating back decades. It seems almost impossible to believe that

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Speaker 2: Malatt only discovered his taste for killing defenseless people. In

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty nine and that he confined himself to New

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Speaker 2: South Wales. There has never been a nationwide investigation of

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Speaker 2: Malat's activities until now. New South Wales Legislative Council Member

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Speaker 2: Jeremy Buckingham is the chair of an inquiry into the

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Speaker 2: unsolved murders and missing persons cases across the southern Highlands

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Speaker 2: of New South Wales Inner Sydney, Newcastle and North Coast

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Speaker 2: regions between nineteen sixty five and twenty ten. It's fast

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Speaker 2: becoming a nationwide probe into this most heenus of individuals.

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Speaker 2: A road worker and long distance truck driver, Malap had

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Speaker 2: the perfect opportunity to indulge his bloodlust, to kill randomly

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Speaker 2: and then move on. There are dozens of unsolved cases

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Speaker 2: outside New South Wales, in Victoria and Queensland that bear

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Speaker 2: the hallmarks of this depraved individual. Malatt died in jail

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Speaker 2: in twenty nineteen while serving seven life sentences, but justice

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Speaker 2: for other victims must still be served and Jeremy Buckingham

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Speaker 2: is fast becoming the instrument of that justice. And it's

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Speaker 2: my pleasure to welcome you back to the real crime studio.

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Speaker 1: You I, Jeremy could I Adam, great to be with you, mate.

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Speaker 3: Absolute pleasure. When you called me the other day.

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Speaker 2: I was in a park in Perth doing work on

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Speaker 2: another murder and I saw you a note, thought to

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Speaker 2: take this call. This bloke's really on fire. Need to

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Speaker 2: talk to him. And you've been doing more work. Your

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Speaker 2: inquiry has started taking submissions this week and it's becoming

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Speaker 2: very clear that you can't confine yourself to New South Wales.

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Speaker 1: That's absolutely right, Adam.

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Speaker 4: What we're discovering is that we know who Ivan Malatt

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Speaker 4: was a road worker, but what's emerging is that he

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Speaker 4: had a very long career as an interstate truck driver,

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Speaker 4: driving into Queensland, driving into Victoria and beyond reports that

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Speaker 4: he even went as far as South Australia and Western Australia.

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Speaker 4: So we're starting to get information about murders, are unsolved homicides, disappearances,

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Speaker 4: especially in central and southeast Queensland and in Victoria, that

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Speaker 4: have all.

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Speaker 1: The hallmarks of Ivan Malatt.

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Speaker 4: People picked up from the roadside, found dumped in remote

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Speaker 4: areas with the same mo in terms of savage bashings

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Speaker 4: and stabbings and rapes, and also the fact that they

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Speaker 4: were vulnerable people people hitchhiking by the side of the road,

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Speaker 4: walking home, these types of things.

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Speaker 1: So we're learning that more.

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Speaker 4: And more people around the country, including retired police and

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Speaker 4: the serving police, were of the view that Malat had

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Speaker 4: killed a lot of other people. But we're not talking

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Speaker 4: two or three. I think we're talking scores of people,

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Speaker 4: and it's a nationwide issue and the biggest belief that

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Speaker 4: this issue has not been properly looked at by law

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Speaker 4: enforcement until now.

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Speaker 2: Well it's right because you're talking about them. Because the

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Speaker 2: motives operandi that comes out of the Blangalo State Forest

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Speaker 2: murders or where he buried the bodies was of someone

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Speaker 2: who killed with a twenty two rifle. Some were in

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Speaker 2: that area. People he picked up between there in Sydney

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Speaker 2: buried them in the forest, and that was pretty much

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Speaker 2: how we were left to believe Malatt operated. But I

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Speaker 2: think what you're finding is that this bloke was an

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Speaker 2: opportunistic thrill killer and a lot of other crimes seem

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Speaker 2: to fit that same mo But most critically, the description

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Speaker 2: seems to be consistent. Over how many murders do you

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Speaker 2: think this applies?

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Speaker 4: I think Scullion, Paul Gordon, others have retired detectives who

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Speaker 4: worked on Task Force Air said it was eighty plus

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Speaker 4: and I think that that's a fair number looking around

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Speaker 4: the country. The documents I've got out of Parliament, Task

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Speaker 4: Force Air had fifty nine that they drew up in

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Speaker 4: nineteen ninety three when they were looking for similar murders

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Speaker 4: across Australia. So that's the sort of number we're looking at,

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Speaker 4: close to one hundred. Where you have this stranger on

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Speaker 4: stranger of violence, it's clearly the murder is not related

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Speaker 4: to drugs or domestic violence or underworld activity. It's just

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Speaker 4: a thrill killing. It's a psycho killer picking people up.

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Speaker 4: Malatt had that opportunity as a road worker, you know,

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Speaker 4: just traveling around and as a track driver, an opportunistic

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Speaker 4: thrill killer. But the other part of them is, of course,

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Speaker 4: if you just mentioned a twenty two rifle used in Bilangelo,

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Speaker 4: other murders around New South Wales and the Eastern seaboard

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Speaker 4: where that's the case, but also the ab that is

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Speaker 4: a very rare thing, beggars belief that someone could bring

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Speaker 4: themselves to do that to anyone in any circumstance, let

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Speaker 4: alone a complete stranger.

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Speaker 1: Yet when we look across some of.

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Speaker 4: These murders in the early nineteen seventies in Queensland, the

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Speaker 4: Norange killer rapist that was operating in Southeast Queensland and

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Speaker 4: fled back into New South Wales and some of the

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Speaker 4: murders in Victoria in Inner Melbourne in the early nineteen eighties.

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Speaker 1: Savage murders are the.

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Speaker 4: Murder of Thomas Cooper Bomarus in July nineteen eighty. Someone

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Speaker 4: just walked up and shot him and his girlfriend point Blake,

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Speaker 4: and the description of that killer in nineteen eighty was

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Speaker 4: of a man in a big black hat with a

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Speaker 4: handlebar mustache shot Thomas Cooper, dared, his girlfriend lived, gave

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Speaker 4: an interview to police, described him, and just a month

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Speaker 4: prior to that Adam in Paramatta, two women disappeared, Deborah

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Speaker 4: Balkan and Gillian Jamison from the Tollgate Hotel. They disappeared

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Speaker 4: just a month earlier and the headlines were searched for

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Speaker 4: the man in the big black hat and an identic

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Speaker 4: kit that looks like Malatt looks like the identic kit

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Speaker 4: of the killer of Thomas Cooper, and it just beag

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Speaker 4: his belief that police did not put those two together

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Speaker 4: and an actual fact, what we've discovered is in some

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Speaker 4: cases they did there was an indication that the police

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Speaker 4: were in New South Wales thought that some of the

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Speaker 4: murders in New South Wales in the early nineteen seventies

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Speaker 4: were linked to some of the murders Michelle Riley in

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Speaker 4: Southeast Coeensland in the early nineteen seventies.

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Speaker 3: You mentioned Thomas Cooper.

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Speaker 2: I had the pleasure recently of interviewing Graham Henderson, who

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Speaker 2: was the first police officer on the scene at bo

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Speaker 2: Morris there and he told the story of talking to

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Speaker 2: Thomas Cooper's girlfriend who was obviously distraught and she'd just

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Speaker 2: been through a terrible ordeal. Where they're in the car there,

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Speaker 2: it's a lover's lane type situation and this figure, as

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Speaker 2: you say, musta black hatters looms up at the car

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Speaker 2: and shoots through the window at poor Thomas. He manages

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Speaker 2: to drive away. The figure continues to shoot and unfortunately

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Speaker 2: Cooper passes away and his girlfriend, who unfortunately is also deceased,

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Speaker 2: otherwise she could pop up at your inquiry, which would

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Speaker 2: be good, gives the description. And you've talked to me

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Speaker 2: about the fact that Malatt and his brothers for that matter,

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Speaker 2: had this unpleasant game, if you could call it, of

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Speaker 2: what they call rattling people in their cars.

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Speaker 3: What was that?

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Speaker 4: Boris Malatt describes it. He said that these Malats were

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Speaker 4: a gang. They were a gang when you think about

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Speaker 4: organized crime, they were gangsters and they were all in

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Speaker 4: like I believe, heavily involved in organized crime from the

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Speaker 4: early nineteen sixties. They were dealing drugs, doing ram raids

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Speaker 4: on gun shops, and a propensity for extreme criminality and violence.

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Speaker 4: Roris malat Ivan's older brother describes the fun they would

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Speaker 4: have on a weekend, which was a couple of them

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Speaker 4: getting a car, steal a car, go out and rattle cars.

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Speaker 4: And that was that they would pull up next to

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Speaker 4: someone at a lover's lane, get out of the car,

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Speaker 4: bash the guy, and rape the girl. That sort of

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Speaker 4: brutality just is beyond comprehension. But Boris Malatt described that

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Speaker 4: as the fun they used to have. And when you

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Speaker 4: look around the country, there are a couple of very

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Speaker 4: very concerning, alarming, egregious murders. Thomas Cooper in Bomars. There's

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Speaker 4: Carol Down and her boyfriend in Kingscliff nineteen seventy seven

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Speaker 4: on the beach in northern New South Wales. A stranger

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Speaker 4: just comes up and shoots them with a shotgun, both dead.

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Speaker 4: There's a double murder Carol Reese and her boyfriend in Newcastle.

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Speaker 1: In the early nineteen seventies.

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Speaker 4: An ex wife Falcon Malat drove x Y Falcon has

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Speaker 4: seen next to their car. They are just shot dead

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Speaker 4: at a lover's lane, exactly the same circumstance as poor

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Speaker 4: Thomas Cooper in nineteen seventy. And then there's another couple

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Speaker 4: in nineteen seventy six, a fellow called mister Barton and

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Speaker 4: his lover whoever, in an affair at Golston Gorge who was

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Speaker 4: shot dead with the twenty two no theft just a

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Speaker 4: thrill killing, no motive in nineteen seventy six, and Golston

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Speaker 4: Gorge was an area that Mlat was known to frequent

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Speaker 4: He dumped some of the backpackers' equipment in that area.

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Speaker 4: So the question is has anyone ever looked at those murders.

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Speaker 4: There's four that I know of of just lovers lane murders.

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Speaker 4: They're strikingly similar to the murders the Son of Sam murders.

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Speaker 4: Just people in their cars, someone walking up and shooting

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Speaker 4: them with the twenty two did other jurisdictions look at

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Speaker 4: Mlat and ask for information about Malat? And this inquiry

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Speaker 4: is going to get to the bottom of it. We're

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Speaker 4: going to write to those other police commands Victoria, Queensland,

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Speaker 4: every state and territory and ask whether or not there

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Speaker 4: were murders that were on their books that they think

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Speaker 4: Malatt could have been a person of interest in.

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Speaker 2: So this is the New South Wales Parliamentary Inquiry of

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Speaker 2: that's going national. Do you, in terms of reference to

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Speaker 2: ll are you to go outside of New South Wales?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think they do on the chair of the committee,

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Speaker 4: and because there's a clever clause that I put in

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Speaker 4: the bottom of the terms of reference and it's any

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Speaker 4: other related matter. Now we're talking about the crimes of

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Speaker 4: a New South Welshman. So as long as I'm talking

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Speaker 4: about Malatt, I can't look at unsolved crimes where it

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Speaker 4: has nothing to do with Malat. But if we are

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Speaker 4: are outside of New South Wales. But if we've got

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Speaker 4: a New South Welshman and Malatt was born and raised here,

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Speaker 4: is a product of New South Wales. If he's going

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Speaker 4: into state and committing crimes, well that's of interest to

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Speaker 4: the people of New South Wales, and we want to

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Speaker 4: know if the New South Wales police were working with

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Speaker 4: other jurisdictions, and potentially if they weren't.

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Speaker 2: You go to the heart of one of the problems

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Speaker 2: of our federal system back then that state police forces

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Speaker 2: did not play well with each other. They're almost in

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Speaker 2: competition with each other.

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Speaker 3: There was no.

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Speaker 2: National databases, no DNA, no ways of cooperation. So the

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Speaker 2: traveling crook, whether it was a bank robber, a murder,

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Speaker 2: of thrillcare of whatever, had a tremendous advantage. And I

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Speaker 2: can see someone like Malat he is a thrill killer

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Speaker 2: and it's all about the kill for him, So he

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Speaker 2: can do this and you'd expect that once he gets

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Speaker 2: away with one and moves on, it's pleasure out of

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Speaker 2: the press that he's seeing about these killings, goes to

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Speaker 2: the next one and the next one, and he.

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Speaker 3: Must be thinking to himself, they're not putting it together.

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Speaker 3: This is a free for all.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly what I think happened.

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Speaker 4: Mlatt was incredibly mobile from a very young age. He

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Speaker 4: was stealing cars, incredibly mobile, moving around a lot. We

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Speaker 4: know that his wife said of him that if he

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Speaker 4: was working north of Newcastle, and if this is before

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Speaker 4: mobile phones in the eighties, if he rang her in

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Speaker 4: the evening and she didn't answer the phone at six

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Speaker 4: o'clock when he'd organized to talk to her, and he

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Speaker 4: was very coercive and threatening and violent individual, he would

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Speaker 4: drive from northern Newcastle to Campbelltown to check on her

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Speaker 4: and then be back at work in the morning. Now

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Speaker 4: that's a four and a half hour trip in the

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Speaker 4: nineteen eighties, like that is a massive long drive. That

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Speaker 4: is driving all night. We know he was a truck driver.

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Speaker 4: We know that he read up on tracks. He always

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Speaker 4: had big muscle cars. He loved to drive, and we

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Speaker 4: know that all he had to do was pop across

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Speaker 4: the border. The AFP were nascent back then, if they

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Speaker 4: really existed at all, the New South Wales jurisdictions couldn't

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Speaker 4: follow him across the border. You got across the border,

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Speaker 4: you're in another world. And we look at that murder

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Speaker 4: and that's what it was of Gillian Jamison and debraah

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Speaker 4: borkm July nineteen eighty. That happens headline search for the

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Speaker 4: Man in the Big Black Hat.

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Speaker 1: It's front page of the Sydney papers.

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Speaker 4: A month later Thomas Cooper's shot and there's a headline

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Speaker 4: cowboy killer strikes and then an identicate of a man

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Speaker 4: in a big black hat with Aelby mustache, and no

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Speaker 4: one puts two and two together. It just beggars belief,

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Speaker 4: but it's possible. But it makes me sit up and

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Speaker 4: think we need to look far and wide, because there's

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Speaker 4: examples in Southeast Queensland, central Queensland, as far away as

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Speaker 4: Western Australia where there's no unsolved homicide that have all

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Speaker 4: the hallmarks of ive in malat And I want to

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Speaker 4: ask for these different police organizations and agencies what they

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Speaker 4: knew and when they knew it, and whether or not

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Speaker 4: they were asking the New South Wales Police, where was

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Speaker 4: your man in the nineteen seventy his eighties? Where are

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Speaker 4: the log books of his work as a truck driver?

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Speaker 4: Which companies did he work for? When did he have

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Speaker 4: two weeks off and go on a holiday? Because this

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Speaker 4: is a guy that I think moved around like a

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Speaker 4: blow fly on the bottom, just zinging from one spot

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Speaker 4: to the other and just commit a crime.

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Speaker 1: Hit the road.

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Speaker 4: Really, you know, it's encapsulated by the ACDC song came

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Speaker 4: out at that time. Highway to Hell. That's what he

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Speaker 4: was on. He was flying up and down these highways,

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Speaker 4: killing with impunity. That's my belief, and I think more

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Speaker 4: and more that we look at it, the evidence is

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Speaker 4: stacking that up.

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Speaker 3: Let's hope he made it to his preferred destination. Jeremy.

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Speaker 2: I'm not a religious man, but there should be some

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Speaker 2: punishment for this. Seven life sentences wasn't enough. Now you

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Speaker 2: talk about clusters of unsolved murders on the Eastern seaboard,

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Speaker 2: and you, I think, have tried to look at well,

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Speaker 2: that's possible. Itinery where they coincide with those clusters.

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Speaker 3: Take us through a few of those.

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Speaker 4: Well, what we know going back in nineteen seventy one,

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Speaker 4: there's a rape, a double rape, and a murder down

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Speaker 4: in Canberra, Karen Rowlands, and there was a double rape

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Speaker 4: that he was charged but not convicted for. So we

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Speaker 4: can see early on here's a propensity for extreme violence,

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Speaker 4: raping people at knife point, and.

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Speaker 1: He's a young man.

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Speaker 4: Nineteen seventy one, he essentially skips the bail and disappears

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Speaker 4: for a couple of years. But we look at nineteen

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Speaker 4: seventy three, what happens in central Queensland and that Charterstownsville

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Speaker 4: Townsville area, there's reports of the Cowboy killer, a man

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Speaker 4: called Tex. There's the killing of Anita Cunningham and Robin

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Speaker 4: Hondrel Bartram out on that Highway twenty two execution rape.

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Speaker 4: And in southeast Queensland there's the Nerang killer rapist, which

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Speaker 4: was caused for such concern that jobioccipedis in the Premier

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Speaker 4: closed the border and they were talking about instituting a

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Speaker 4: state of emergency because there was Gabriel Jenki and Michelle Riley.

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Speaker 4: They were abducted and savagely murdered and then another young

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Speaker 4: woman in Irang was picked up and savagely stabbed. Now

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Speaker 4: she survived, gave a description of the person that fitted Malat,

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Speaker 4: fitted his car, and that the purse and the police

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Speaker 4: knew had escaped over the border. So there's a cluster

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Speaker 4: in Queensland in that seventy two seventy three period. He

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Speaker 4: escapes over into the border. We don't know what happens

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Speaker 4: New South Wales. CIB at the time said that they

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Speaker 4: thought the person responsible for Gabriel Jenki and Michelle Riley's

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Speaker 4: murder had killed Jeanette Hannington and Guy Meer and also

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Speaker 4: Bromwin Richardson in Aubury. Now Mlap was a person of

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Speaker 4: interest in the Aubury murder at the time, so that

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Speaker 4: Lynks Mlap certainly the police were making the links to

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Speaker 4: Malap and those Southeast Queensland murders. And then beyond that,

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Speaker 4: basically the mid to late seventies there's just this explosion

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Speaker 4: of unsolved homicides involving young women hitch hiking, walking home, abducted,

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Speaker 4: egregiously murdered in the Woollongong, Central Sydney and especially North

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Speaker 4: Sydney Newcastle area. So we see a lot in the

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Speaker 4: North Sydney area. Shell Pope and her partner abducted in

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Speaker 4: North Sydney, the murders in and around Newcastle, Lean Goodall,

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Speaker 4: Amanda Robinson, amongst others. That was the subject of a

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Speaker 4: police task force after Mlatt's arrest, Task Force Fenwick that

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Speaker 4: looked at seventeen murders in North Sydney and Newcastle in

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Speaker 4: that area and never came up with an extra charge.

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Speaker 4: There was an abduction of Kerry Joel and Elane Johnson,

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Speaker 4: Tony Cavanar and k Dougherty in the Woollongong area, amongst others.

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Speaker 4: So that's where we see Mlatt was living, that was

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Speaker 4: where he was working, and there was just a huge

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Speaker 4: number up until about the mid nineteen eighties and this

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Speaker 4: Paramatta Tollgate Hotel abduction where there was a witness, there

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Speaker 4: was an identic kit, it was front page of the paper.

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Speaker 4: And then what happens We have Thomas Cooper a month

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Speaker 4: later in Victoria murdered a thrill killing down at Beaumars

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Speaker 4: and around that time. Around that time there were a

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Speaker 4: number of the alarming increases I think in unsolved homicides

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Speaker 4: and thrill killings in that Melbourne area.

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Speaker 1: Now I don't want.

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Speaker 4: To draw too many conclusions, but I do think we

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Speaker 4: can say that Malap was very mobile. His brother said,

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Speaker 4: wherever he went, people were killed. That's what his brother

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Speaker 4: Boris said. His brother Boris had a bit of an

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Speaker 4: axe to grind. But his other brother said, David says, oh,

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Speaker 4: we know he does bad things.

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Speaker 1: We think he might have stopped.

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Speaker 4: And so this period, this mystery period for Ivan Malap,

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Speaker 4: the late sixties to the late nineteen eighties, Where was he,

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Speaker 4: who was he, what was he working?

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Speaker 1: Who for? We need to know, like on.

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Speaker 4: A day by day basis where this guy was, so

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Speaker 4: we can at least line up whether or not he

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Speaker 4: had the opportunity to commit some of these murders, because

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Speaker 4: I think he did.

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Speaker 2: I think you're probably right, but we don't really know

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Speaker 2: what the police know. Typically US journalists of ass questions

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Speaker 2: about these murders and possible links to particularly when the

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Speaker 2: killers are alive, we get this, this is an ongoing

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Speaker 2: investigation and we can't comment, and this can be about

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Speaker 2: murders from thirty or forty years before. How confident are

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Speaker 2: you that New South Wales police will be willing to

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Speaker 2: share these details with you.

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Speaker 4: It's a million dollar question, Adam. I really hope that

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Speaker 4: they are. We had a big inquiry in New South

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Speaker 4: Wales which was the Gay Hate Crimes Inquiry, and the

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Speaker 4: police didn't play nicely in that didn't provide the information

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Speaker 4: that that inquiry ran into a Special Commission of Inquiry

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Speaker 4: and had some really important recommendations and some truth telling.

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Speaker 4: I think the police in New South Wales can look

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Speaker 4: at that. That's the process. Where on I'm going to

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Speaker 4: be in Parliament for the next six years. I'm never

361
00:20:54,681 --> 00:20:57,640
Speaker 4: giving up. The families aren't giving up the communities not

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Speaker 4: giving up and how is it not in the public

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Speaker 4: interest for the police to provide our inquiry And even

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Speaker 4: if it's the committee confidential and privileged information, how is

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Speaker 4: it not in the public interest to show us what

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Speaker 4: they know on these matters. We want to see his

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Speaker 4: police record, We want to see his work record. We

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Speaker 4: want to see what things he was charged for and

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Speaker 4: win in different jurisdictions. We want to see what these

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Speaker 4: task forces turned up Fenwick and Air why they didn't

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Speaker 4: pursue him on other matters, because he's an really egregious case.

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Speaker 4: The case of Peter Letcher. Peter Letcher was murdered in

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Speaker 4: nineteen eighty eight and Jenolan Caves. He was abducted and

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Speaker 4: picked up hitch hiking. He'd been raped, He'd been shot

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Speaker 4: and savagely stabbed, his body left underneath the log in

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Speaker 4: Janolan Caves. It's the same type of murder in the

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Speaker 4: same place, in the same time as the Blangelo murders.

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Speaker 4: And then this Clive Small, the detective inspector that led

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Speaker 4: Task Force AIR, said on the public record that the

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Speaker 4: ballistics found at Peter Letcher's murder site matched Angelo. Yet

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00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,521
Speaker 4: Malat was never charged. Now, how can that be Why

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Speaker 4: would you not get this guy out of jail and

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Speaker 4: convict him for another murder? Peter Leccher and his family

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Speaker 4: demanding it. It just doesn't pass muster. Clive Small said

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Speaker 4: there wasn't the political appetite to go after Malat's other crimes.

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Speaker 4: And that's a million dollar question, because you know, I

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Speaker 4: think it opened up a Pandoras box that goes all

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Speaker 4: the way back into the nineteen sixties and seventies.

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Speaker 3: It is troubling, and Clive Small was a friend of mine.

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Speaker 2: He died recently, God rest his soul, and one of

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Speaker 2: the most dedicated officers and human beings I've dealt with

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Speaker 2: in my true prime career. And if he could have

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Speaker 2: prosecuted Malat, I think he would have. So are we

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Speaker 2: talking about people in the system and the hierarchy, possibly

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Speaker 2: even in politics, who've conspired to minimize even Malat's activities.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly what we're saying.

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Speaker 4: I think that the cops would have gone after in

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Speaker 4: Foot Bottle, There's no doubt about it.

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Speaker 1: There's no way that they would.

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Speaker 4: Leave murders hanging out there, unless of course there was

401
00:23:12,801 --> 00:23:16,561
Speaker 4: some you know, and the police are beholden to the politicians.

402
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Speaker 4: They're the ones that do the appointing of the senior police,

403
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Speaker 4: They're the ones that provide the budgets, and they're the

404
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Speaker 4: ones that write the laws and have incredible power. And

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Speaker 4: we look at New South Wales and the nineteen seventies

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Speaker 4: and eighties in particular, one of the most corrupt places

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Speaker 4: on Earth and the New South Wales police right there

408
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Speaker 4: in the middle of the police, the judiciary, the executive,

409
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Speaker 4: the government bureaucracy, all of it was an absolute cesspool.

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Speaker 4: People think that places like Bangkok or corrupt places, well,

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Speaker 4: I describe Sydney in that time as like a white Bangkok.

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Speaker 4: It was anything goes, drugs, prostitution, all illegal, all green lit,

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Speaker 4: and with that a criminal element that just ran amok,

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Speaker 4: essentially operated with impunity.

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Speaker 1: Now we had the Wood Royal.

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Speaker 4: Commission in South Wales cleared a lot of that out,

417
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Speaker 4: but at the heart of this and the Wood Royal

418
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Speaker 4: Commission was I think some of the real damage done

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Speaker 4: in that corruption was what happens when some of these

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Speaker 4: criminal figures are basically green lit. You look at some

421
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Speaker 4: of the more notorious ones people Likeneddie Smith operating essentially

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Speaker 4: with impunity, doing armed robberies. Well, what if someone like

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Speaker 4: Ivan Malap was useful connected running drugs, potentially.

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Speaker 1: Knew a few people in power.

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Speaker 4: What if they were green lip, They'd basically been given

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Speaker 4: a leave pass and they went, okay, well I'm going

427
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Speaker 4: to use this to the full extent. And I wonder

428
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Speaker 4: if that's why there wasn't a political appetite to have

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Speaker 4: a look back at what he was really up to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure there are people out there listening to

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Speaker 2: the podcast saying, oh, this Jeremy Buckingham is a conspiracy theorist.

432
00:24:57,561 --> 00:25:00,441
Speaker 2: How could this happen? I'll give you a good precedent

433
00:25:00,481 --> 00:25:06,160
Speaker 2: you dubting Thomas's. Neville Tween was the likely the abductor,

434
00:25:06,321 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 2: rapist and murderer of Trudy Adams. She was picked up

435
00:25:09,721 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy eight on the Northern Beaches there and she

436
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,360
Speaker 2: was murdered not just by Twin but a group of men.

437
00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 2: He later becomes an informant to the New South Wales

438
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,761
Speaker 2: Crime Commission investigator Mark Standen. He was paid one hundred

439
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,321
Speaker 2: grand or more in public money for his information and

440
00:25:26,360 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 2: there's evidence that he was protected. Of course, Mark Standon

441
00:25:29,521 --> 00:25:31,881
Speaker 2: goes to jail later on for drug crimes. So as

442
00:25:31,921 --> 00:25:34,561
Speaker 2: you say, New South Wales was hardly squeaky clean and

443
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 2: there are these precedents for this sort of pragmatic approach. Well,

444
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,641
Speaker 2: you know, Melat's in there for seven life sentences. Why

445
00:25:42,681 --> 00:25:45,641
Speaker 2: do we have to spend more energy and time when

446
00:25:45,721 --> 00:25:49,120
Speaker 2: you know pragmatic thoughts may have ruled the day. And

447
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:50,881
Speaker 2: I think Tween is a very good excent. He's also

448
00:25:50,961 --> 00:25:54,041
Speaker 2: dead by the one, A more loathsome character you couldn't find.

449
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 2: But these sort of individuals thrived in that kind of

450
00:25:58,321 --> 00:25:59,601
Speaker 2: environment in those days.

451
00:26:00,481 --> 00:26:01,921
Speaker 1: Well that is exactly right.

452
00:26:02,001 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 4: You look at it, the close links between some of

453
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 4: the pool and these career criminals who would do anything.

454
00:26:09,041 --> 00:26:13,961
Speaker 4: I think that they would rape, murder, drugs, crime, corruption, standover.

455
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:18,201
Speaker 4: That was their bread and butter, you know, institutionalized criminality.

456
00:26:18,561 --> 00:26:20,360
Speaker 1: But we really have to have a look at who

457
00:26:20,441 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 1: Ivan Malatt is.

458
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,241
Speaker 4: We were told that Ivan Malat was this familial road worker,

459
00:26:25,761 --> 00:26:29,001
Speaker 4: but he was a career criminal, a really serious criminal,

460
00:26:29,041 --> 00:26:32,441
Speaker 4: like he was doing armed robberies, he was doing ram raids,

461
00:26:32,721 --> 00:26:36,360
Speaker 4: he was running drugs, like major shipments of cannabis in

462
00:26:36,441 --> 00:26:39,360
Speaker 4: and out of Queensland in the mid nineteen eighties, moving

463
00:26:39,481 --> 00:26:40,921
Speaker 4: guns and arms.

464
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,361
Speaker 1: Across the border and how did he see himself?

465
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 4: Well, Ivan Malatt used to sign off and people can

466
00:26:46,801 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 4: google this up used to sign off his name as

467
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 4: Ivan with a stick figure that was the Saint, like

468
00:26:53,481 --> 00:26:57,161
Speaker 4: the Saint Kilda football club logo. It was the Saint now.

469
00:26:57,201 --> 00:27:00,801
Speaker 4: The Saint was a Roger Moore character from the nineteen

470
00:27:00,921 --> 00:27:05,521
Speaker 4: sixties who was like a vigilante, like an Underworld charrector,

471
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:10,041
Speaker 4: a James Bond character, a hit man working sort of

472
00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 4: for the good of society, cleaning up the streets. He

473
00:27:13,921 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 4: would go out, he would knock off baddies, people involved

474
00:27:18,001 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 4: in prostitution and drugs and espionage. We would knock them off.

475
00:27:22,321 --> 00:27:26,361
Speaker 4: Malat's nickname that his mum gave him was Kookie. Kookie

476
00:27:26,761 --> 00:27:30,321
Speaker 4: was an undercover cop in the nineteen sixties TV show

477
00:27:30,961 --> 00:27:34,241
Speaker 4: seventy seven Sunset Strip. Malatt used to dress up as

478
00:27:34,281 --> 00:27:37,041
Speaker 4: a ranger. People have come forward to me and said

479
00:27:37,041 --> 00:27:40,640
Speaker 4: that they had seen Malatt in Darlinghurst in the seventies

480
00:27:40,681 --> 00:27:43,721
Speaker 4: and eighties and like one couple said, he tried to

481
00:27:43,761 --> 00:27:46,761
Speaker 4: abduct them and he was wearing a police uniform. His

482
00:27:47,001 --> 00:27:51,281
Speaker 4: gun that he carried around had KGB written on it.

483
00:27:51,721 --> 00:27:55,360
Speaker 4: His rifles and his gun were inscribed with KGB, and

484
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 4: he had a paintball mask in his keel kit and

485
00:27:57,961 --> 00:28:02,400
Speaker 4: a camouflage paintball mask that had inscribed in it KGB.

486
00:28:02,921 --> 00:28:05,721
Speaker 4: And we look at the attitudes of police, especially to

487
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 4: young women in that seventies and eighties. They blame the

488
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,321
Speaker 4: women that are picked up and raped and murdered. They say, well,

489
00:28:13,321 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 4: this is what you get if you're this sort of

490
00:28:15,481 --> 00:28:18,441
Speaker 4: person who's smoking a bit of dope and hitch hiking

491
00:28:18,481 --> 00:28:21,120
Speaker 4: and heading off to a hippie commune.

492
00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:22,481
Speaker 1: This is what you can get.

493
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,361
Speaker 4: In one case, the police officer complains about the amount

494
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 4: of work it's creating.

495
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:29,281
Speaker 1: For police officers.

496
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 4: These women and young men who are hitch hiking and

497
00:28:32,801 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 4: getting into trouble.

498
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,761
Speaker 1: They blame the victim quite literally.

499
00:28:36,721 --> 00:28:41,161
Speaker 4: And the perpetrators were I think just not even pursued,

500
00:28:41,401 --> 00:28:43,321
Speaker 4: and I think that was just seen as sort of

501
00:28:43,321 --> 00:28:46,001
Speaker 4: collateral damage. Well, what do you expect if you're a

502
00:28:46,001 --> 00:28:49,281
Speaker 4: beautiful young girl walking home at night on your own

503
00:28:49,641 --> 00:28:52,841
Speaker 4: or going home? In one case, the police warned women

504
00:28:52,961 --> 00:28:56,041
Speaker 4: not to be home alone on their own. Now, in

505
00:28:56,081 --> 00:28:59,441
Speaker 4: today's standards, you just think that doesn't pass muster. People

506
00:28:59,481 --> 00:29:01,681
Speaker 4: should be allowed to be at home alone and be

507
00:29:01,761 --> 00:29:04,641
Speaker 4: safe without having their door kicked in and being stabbed

508
00:29:04,641 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 4: to death. But in the nineteen seventies it was a

509
00:29:07,241 --> 00:29:07,881
Speaker 4: different world.

510
00:29:08,761 --> 00:29:10,521
Speaker 2: Yeah, I grew up in the seventies and was one

511
00:29:10,521 --> 00:29:12,801
Speaker 2: of our rights of passage. Going hitchhiking. You go with

512
00:29:12,881 --> 00:29:15,241
Speaker 2: your girlfriend. You couldn't afford the train of the plane,

513
00:29:15,241 --> 00:29:17,161
Speaker 2: so you hit. So everyone did it. And yet to

514
00:29:17,201 --> 00:29:20,561
Speaker 2: think what we know now about the dangers of it.

515
00:29:20,641 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 2: I mean, we're absolutely off our heads. You look at

516
00:29:23,001 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 2: them in the backpacker murders again, that it's accommodation of

517
00:29:28,601 --> 00:29:33,921
Speaker 2: stabbing and shooting. Normally these things are separate. The killer

518
00:29:33,961 --> 00:29:36,921
Speaker 2: with a firearm tends to from remote control further back

519
00:29:36,961 --> 00:29:39,601
Speaker 2: it if it's closed up, but still there's a certain distance,

520
00:29:39,961 --> 00:29:43,281
Speaker 2: whereas someone who uses a knife likes to be up close,

521
00:29:43,881 --> 00:29:48,121
Speaker 2: likes to feel someone's life force ebbing away. And I'm

522
00:29:48,121 --> 00:29:51,521
Speaker 2: always struck by that picture we've seen of Malett in

523
00:29:51,561 --> 00:29:54,161
Speaker 2: the back of a police car and he's looking into

524
00:29:54,161 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 2: the camera with this gleeful evil look on his face,

525
00:29:59,721 --> 00:30:05,641
Speaker 2: like I am just pure undistilled hate and lovelust.

526
00:30:06,281 --> 00:30:07,761
Speaker 3: This bloke can do anything.

527
00:30:08,961 --> 00:30:11,641
Speaker 4: I think so, and I think it's likely he operated

528
00:30:11,681 --> 00:30:15,161
Speaker 4: in concert at sometimes, but probably only with people that

529
00:30:15,281 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 4: were very close to him, like he trusted with his

530
00:30:18,801 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 4: life literally, so you know, of course his family members,

531
00:30:22,241 --> 00:30:26,961
Speaker 4: his brother Richard and Bill and Walter were always implicated

532
00:30:27,041 --> 00:30:31,001
Speaker 4: and a person's of interest. How Richard Mlatt wasn't charged

533
00:30:31,281 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 4: by Task Force heir was all of the evidence that

534
00:30:34,521 --> 00:30:37,841
Speaker 4: they've got they had against Malat, apart from the ruga

535
00:30:38,001 --> 00:30:42,081
Speaker 4: rifle parts in the house, were essentially applied to Richard.

536
00:30:42,441 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 4: But I think the interesting thing about Malat was it

537
00:30:45,081 --> 00:30:48,841
Speaker 4: was about control. He was a control freak, and so

538
00:30:49,161 --> 00:30:52,921
Speaker 4: he loved tying people up and torturing them. And so

539
00:30:53,401 --> 00:30:55,561
Speaker 4: I think he would kill one person in one way

540
00:30:55,681 --> 00:30:58,641
Speaker 4: in front of the other person, terrify the other person

541
00:30:58,921 --> 00:31:01,681
Speaker 4: they knew that their fate was sealed. One of the

542
00:31:01,721 --> 00:31:05,401
Speaker 4: most appalling parts of the Backpack of Murders is that

543
00:31:05,561 --> 00:31:08,721
Speaker 4: really wasn't looked into was well. First of all, there's

544
00:31:08,761 --> 00:31:12,441
Speaker 4: an indication in the joe Anne Walters and Caroline Clark

545
00:31:12,681 --> 00:31:17,001
Speaker 4: that joe Ane Walters died months after Caroline Clark. She

546
00:31:17,201 --> 00:31:19,841
Speaker 4: may well have been the forensics couldn't nail that down.

547
00:31:20,081 --> 00:31:23,121
Speaker 4: She may well have been kept for a very long time,

548
00:31:23,201 --> 00:31:25,561
Speaker 4: I'm talking months, and.

549
00:31:25,481 --> 00:31:28,841
Speaker 1: In the other murders, the people were eviscerated.

550
00:31:29,361 --> 00:31:32,241
Speaker 4: In one case, the torso and the legs were found

551
00:31:32,281 --> 00:31:35,041
Speaker 4: a long way away from each other, the heads missing,

552
00:31:35,361 --> 00:31:40,281
Speaker 4: body parts missing, and it's symptomatic, like it's very very

553
00:31:40,721 --> 00:31:44,921
Speaker 4: rare to find serial killers at all. It's very rare

554
00:31:44,961 --> 00:31:48,321
Speaker 4: to find serial killers that will stab people to death.

555
00:31:48,841 --> 00:31:53,481
Speaker 4: It's like it's just such an incredibly intense and violent effect.

556
00:31:53,721 --> 00:31:57,481
Speaker 4: And yet across Australia what we see is this pattern

557
00:31:57,801 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 4: of these stabbing and also, i should say, adam, as

558
00:32:01,241 --> 00:32:04,401
Speaker 4: appalling as it is if you're stabbing someone because they

559
00:32:04,401 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 4: owe you money or like a domestic violent situation, like

560
00:32:09,121 --> 00:32:12,881
Speaker 4: that's one thing, terrible as it is, but to stab

561
00:32:13,001 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 4: someone you've never met before, a complete stranger, is just

562
00:32:17,601 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 4: in another class of evil. And yet that's what we

563
00:32:21,361 --> 00:32:25,801
Speaker 4: see in Southeast Queensland in the Blangelo murders, wander Beach,

564
00:32:26,121 --> 00:32:28,721
Speaker 4: some of these murders, these other murders.

565
00:32:28,441 --> 00:32:29,401
Speaker 1: That are unsolved.

566
00:32:29,641 --> 00:32:32,281
Speaker 4: And how many of these serial killers have we had

567
00:32:32,321 --> 00:32:37,521
Speaker 4: in Australia who involved in long term patterns of extreme

568
00:32:37,681 --> 00:32:42,121
Speaker 4: violence picking up strangers, maybe three or four maybe three

569
00:32:42,241 --> 00:32:46,121
Speaker 4: or four. And Ivan Malatt was a career criminal, and

570
00:32:46,201 --> 00:32:51,041
Speaker 4: I just don't believe that he wasn't responsible for many, many,

571
00:32:51,081 --> 00:32:54,161
Speaker 4: many of these other murders. And the key thing we

572
00:32:54,601 --> 00:32:58,521
Speaker 4: want to get to is where was Ivan? Where was he?

573
00:32:58,641 --> 00:33:02,121
Speaker 4: How is it that Ivan Malat is a mystery in

574
00:33:02,161 --> 00:33:05,801
Speaker 4: the nineteen seventies. Where was he? What was he doing?

575
00:33:06,081 --> 00:33:09,361
Speaker 4: Who were his friends? What was his job on this

576
00:33:09,481 --> 00:33:12,001
Speaker 4: day that day? Where was he? We want to get

577
00:33:12,001 --> 00:33:12,641
Speaker 4: to the bottom of it.

578
00:33:14,361 --> 00:33:17,281
Speaker 2: Indeed, you mentioned Caroline Clark, the possive that she was

579
00:33:17,361 --> 00:33:22,321
Speaker 2: kept for some time. We see also the disappearance of

580
00:33:22,361 --> 00:33:27,681
Speaker 2: Anita Cunningham. Her traveling partner Robin Hoynevilbartram was found under

581
00:33:27,681 --> 00:33:30,881
Speaker 2: a bridget sensible creeking of Charter's towers. There's never been

582
00:33:30,961 --> 00:33:34,561
Speaker 2: any sign of Anita Cunningham, and I wonder whether this

583
00:33:34,641 --> 00:33:37,721
Speaker 2: fits because the witness in that case, who unfortunately stayed

584
00:33:37,761 --> 00:33:41,041
Speaker 2: quiet for decades and her information only really came out

585
00:33:41,081 --> 00:33:45,961
Speaker 2: after her death. MERL White, I'm talking about she identified

586
00:33:45,961 --> 00:33:49,401
Speaker 2: someone looked very much like Ivan ma lap up there

587
00:33:49,521 --> 00:33:53,201
Speaker 2: black hat, called himself Cowboy. But he was with other

588
00:33:53,241 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 2: people as well, And I wonder what happened to those people?

589
00:33:59,561 --> 00:34:03,001
Speaker 2: Are they able to give evidence even at this long

590
00:34:03,041 --> 00:34:05,041
Speaker 2: distance of time, are they still out there?

591
00:34:05,041 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 3: Do you reckon, Jeremy, There's no.

592
00:34:06,601 --> 00:34:07,281
Speaker 1: Doubt about it.

593
00:34:07,481 --> 00:34:12,401
Speaker 4: I think that Ivan had accomplices, family members highly likely.

594
00:34:12,601 --> 00:34:15,481
Speaker 1: I think that there's other people that know things.

595
00:34:15,801 --> 00:34:19,401
Speaker 4: But I think that Ivan learned something early on that

596
00:34:19,441 --> 00:34:22,761
Speaker 4: if you have witnesses. There's a remarkable letter he sent

597
00:34:22,841 --> 00:34:25,921
Speaker 4: to one of his family members who was quite senior

598
00:34:25,961 --> 00:34:29,081
Speaker 4: in the Rebels motorcycle gang, and he said, whenever you're

599
00:34:29,121 --> 00:34:32,521
Speaker 4: talking about doing business, and when he meant business and

600
00:34:32,521 --> 00:34:36,081
Speaker 4: he meant sort of dealing with rival motorcycle gangs, he said,

601
00:34:36,161 --> 00:34:40,161
Speaker 4: make sure you do it on your own, don't leave witnesses.

602
00:34:40,601 --> 00:34:43,801
Speaker 4: That's Ivan Malat's letter to one of his family members

603
00:34:44,041 --> 00:34:46,961
Speaker 4: on how you deal with doing business. So I do

604
00:34:47,001 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 4: think they're out there, but I'll tell you what, they'd

605
00:34:49,041 --> 00:34:52,361
Speaker 4: be living under a rock because they would be terrified

606
00:34:52,481 --> 00:34:54,881
Speaker 4: of the Malats. But the key thing you were saying

607
00:34:54,921 --> 00:34:58,001
Speaker 4: there was we're told that Ivan Malak picked up his

608
00:34:58,121 --> 00:35:01,241
Speaker 4: chikers by the highway. Well, there's no evidence he did that.

609
00:35:01,721 --> 00:35:06,641
Speaker 4: All of the backpackers, apart from Simone Schmied, were last

610
00:35:06,721 --> 00:35:10,801
Speaker 4: seen in King's Cross, walking out of youth hostels and

611
00:35:10,841 --> 00:35:13,881
Speaker 4: the Germans said we've organized a lift with a guy,

612
00:35:14,361 --> 00:35:15,961
Speaker 4: and they had organized a lift.

613
00:35:16,241 --> 00:35:18,481
Speaker 1: I think that Malatt went to the source.

614
00:35:18,521 --> 00:35:21,401
Speaker 4: He sat outside the train station, that's what he did

615
00:35:21,481 --> 00:35:25,361
Speaker 4: with Paul Onions, spotted the backpackers getting off the train,

616
00:35:25,801 --> 00:35:29,841
Speaker 4: leaving the backpackers. I think he was a hunter, opportunistic

617
00:35:30,121 --> 00:35:33,241
Speaker 4: on his days off, driving the highways in a truck,

618
00:35:33,601 --> 00:35:36,041
Speaker 4: working the roads. And we look at a number of

619
00:35:36,121 --> 00:35:39,921
Speaker 4: the murders and disappearances of young people in Sydney in

620
00:35:39,961 --> 00:35:44,641
Speaker 4: the late eighties. So Ka Dougherty and Tony Kavnar disappeared

621
00:35:44,641 --> 00:35:47,481
Speaker 4: from Wollongong. He's working on the roads just down the

622
00:35:47,561 --> 00:35:51,641
Speaker 4: road in nineteen seventy nine. Those two were just riding

623
00:35:51,641 --> 00:35:55,401
Speaker 4: their bikes to a babysitting job and were never seen again.

624
00:35:56,041 --> 00:36:00,081
Speaker 4: But two weeks later their family got two letters postmarked

625
00:36:00,081 --> 00:36:04,161
Speaker 4: from Darlinghurst, written in the handwriting of k Dougherty, saying

626
00:36:04,561 --> 00:36:07,641
Speaker 4: we've gone, We've met some friends, will be home soon.

627
00:36:08,001 --> 00:36:11,121
Speaker 4: That's two weeks after they disappear the letter is sent.

628
00:36:11,641 --> 00:36:13,681
Speaker 4: That's an indication that someone is trying to put them

629
00:36:13,681 --> 00:36:16,641
Speaker 4: off the scene and their body's never found. The letters

630
00:36:16,641 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 4: sent from Darlinghurst. There's Marion Sandford and Mary Davies as well.

631
00:36:21,521 --> 00:36:26,321
Speaker 4: They both send letters disappear leave strange letters saying we've

632
00:36:26,361 --> 00:36:29,881
Speaker 4: gone away, We've met some friends. Deborah Balkin and Gillian

633
00:36:29,961 --> 00:36:33,401
Speaker 4: Jamison the same thing. They wrang their family members and said,

634
00:36:33,521 --> 00:36:36,961
Speaker 4: oh we've met some people, We're going away. Annie Tomanak

635
00:36:37,201 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 4: in Newcastle nineteen seventy nine does the same thing. There's

636
00:36:41,001 --> 00:36:44,881
Speaker 4: about seven or eight murders where a letter is sent

637
00:36:45,001 --> 00:36:48,121
Speaker 4: a phone call is made a Tooshak and Lacey in

638
00:36:48,241 --> 00:36:51,721
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty as well. I think that's an indication that

639
00:36:51,761 --> 00:36:54,881
Speaker 4: the people were being abducted and then kept, and a

640
00:36:55,001 --> 00:36:58,321
Speaker 4: letter sent a clever ruse to put the people off.

641
00:36:58,481 --> 00:37:00,881
Speaker 4: So when the people say, I'm reporting my daughter missing

642
00:37:01,201 --> 00:37:03,001
Speaker 4: and she left a note saying that she's met some

643
00:37:03,041 --> 00:37:05,081
Speaker 4: friends and go on to northern New South Wales and

644
00:37:05,161 --> 00:37:07,841
Speaker 4: the police say, oh, well, so what. But it's an

645
00:37:07,841 --> 00:37:12,561
Speaker 4: indication of someone who's cunning, someone who's potentially keeping people,

646
00:37:13,081 --> 00:37:15,401
Speaker 4: and it sort of broadens the picture.

647
00:37:15,721 --> 00:37:17,841
Speaker 1: And Malap was a person of interest.

648
00:37:17,561 --> 00:37:21,321
Speaker 4: In many of those, many of those, and that broadens

649
00:37:21,321 --> 00:37:24,041
Speaker 4: the picture of who he is and how he operated.

650
00:37:24,361 --> 00:37:26,561
Speaker 4: And I think that if you think that he was

651
00:37:26,601 --> 00:37:30,601
Speaker 4: a person who got his evil pleasure out of controlling people. Well,

652
00:37:30,641 --> 00:37:32,721
Speaker 4: then why wouldn't he want to give people up after

653
00:37:32,841 --> 00:37:36,081
Speaker 4: just a few hours. The evidence from Blangelo was that

654
00:37:36,161 --> 00:37:39,681
Speaker 4: whoever it was and Ivan there had revisited the scene,

655
00:37:40,041 --> 00:37:42,601
Speaker 4: and I think it shows a picture that Ivan may

656
00:37:42,681 --> 00:37:45,361
Speaker 4: well have had a place where he kept people. We've

657
00:37:45,401 --> 00:37:48,361
Speaker 4: discovered in the course of our inquiry that the Malats

658
00:37:48,401 --> 00:37:51,881
Speaker 4: had a flat in San Suzi and Rockdale. Whether or

659
00:37:51,881 --> 00:37:54,161
Speaker 4: not that's ever been searched, I don't know. And they

660
00:37:54,201 --> 00:37:58,281
Speaker 4: had a massive property at Wombian Caves, five hundred acres

661
00:37:58,321 --> 00:38:02,041
Speaker 4: on the Wombian Caves Road where there were huts and

662
00:38:02,281 --> 00:38:05,241
Speaker 4: shacks and they used to go camping down there. That's

663
00:38:05,281 --> 00:38:08,961
Speaker 4: only about fifty kilometers from Bilangelo. These are questions that

664
00:38:09,001 --> 00:38:10,081
Speaker 4: we want to get to the bottom of.

665
00:38:10,881 --> 00:38:14,761
Speaker 3: Can you subpoena the surviving family members?

666
00:38:15,401 --> 00:38:19,601
Speaker 4: Yes, so we have under the Parliamentary Evidences Act, we

667
00:38:19,641 --> 00:38:24,041
Speaker 4: can request people appear at the inquiry and if they resist,

668
00:38:24,201 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 4: we can issue them as summons. So that's what we're

669
00:38:26,481 --> 00:38:29,401
Speaker 4: going to do. So we are going to summons some

670
00:38:29,481 --> 00:38:32,121
Speaker 4: of them Malats. We're also going to summon some of

671
00:38:32,161 --> 00:38:37,201
Speaker 4: the most notorious criminals in Australian history, Les Murphy, Les Rose,

672
00:38:37,601 --> 00:38:40,921
Speaker 4: Kevin Crump, some others, to get an understanding of who

673
00:38:40,961 --> 00:38:43,721
Speaker 4: these people are, where they came from, because there was

674
00:38:43,761 --> 00:38:48,641
Speaker 4: just this explosion in these extremely violent people in the

675
00:38:48,721 --> 00:38:53,041
Speaker 4: early nineteen seventies and they've pretty much disappeared. They've pretty

676
00:38:53,081 --> 00:38:55,281
Speaker 4: much disappeared, and we want to know where they come from.

677
00:38:55,281 --> 00:38:58,641
Speaker 4: My suspicion is these were people who came from broken

678
00:38:58,681 --> 00:39:05,441
Speaker 4: Hearn's abuse institutionalized early more abuse in those institutions, criminals, reality,

679
00:39:05,681 --> 00:39:10,681
Speaker 4: jail abuse, and that cycle coughed out maniacs. We basically

680
00:39:10,721 --> 00:39:15,801
Speaker 4: had maniac factories that delivered people like the Murphy's, the Mulats,

681
00:39:16,201 --> 00:39:20,321
Speaker 4: amongst others, Kevin Crump and Allen. Yeah, so we do

682
00:39:20,401 --> 00:39:23,321
Speaker 4: have the capacity to compel those people to appear.

683
00:39:23,961 --> 00:39:26,481
Speaker 2: What I'm fascinated to hear is you're going to get

684
00:39:26,561 --> 00:39:29,921
Speaker 2: Les Rose, who's in jail. He was a contract killer,

685
00:39:29,961 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 2: I believe, and a serial killer in his own right

686
00:39:32,401 --> 00:39:35,721
Speaker 2: to come in and testify. Do you think he'll come?

687
00:39:35,761 --> 00:39:37,481
Speaker 2: Do you think he's going to answer the summons?

688
00:39:38,441 --> 00:39:40,961
Speaker 1: He's got no choice. If he doesn't, he goes to jail.

689
00:39:41,361 --> 00:39:44,561
Speaker 4: He's in jail, He'll go to our jail, I mean,

690
00:39:44,641 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 4: but the point is he can't refuse to come and

691
00:39:47,801 --> 00:39:50,921
Speaker 4: apparently Les doesn't like Ivan m'latt spent a couple of

692
00:39:51,001 --> 00:39:53,001
Speaker 4: years in a jail cell with him, and we want

693
00:39:53,001 --> 00:39:54,961
Speaker 4: to hear what they were talking too late until the night.

694
00:39:55,001 --> 00:39:57,281
Speaker 1: Because Noel Manning, who was.

695
00:39:57,481 --> 00:40:00,721
Speaker 4: A fellow who spent time in jail with Malatt in

696
00:40:00,841 --> 00:40:03,801
Speaker 4: Long Bay in nineteen seventy four while he was on

697
00:40:03,881 --> 00:40:06,721
Speaker 4: remand for his duble rape and double armed robbery, which

698
00:40:06,801 --> 00:40:08,321
Speaker 4: he beat unbelievably.

699
00:40:08,521 --> 00:40:09,721
Speaker 1: We're going to get to the bottom of that.

700
00:40:10,241 --> 00:40:13,441
Speaker 4: But Manning said that Malatt would brag about having killed

701
00:40:13,881 --> 00:40:17,001
Speaker 4: like scores of young people when he was working on

702
00:40:17,041 --> 00:40:19,721
Speaker 4: the Cross City Tunnel. Malatt worked on the Cross City

703
00:40:19,761 --> 00:40:22,961
Speaker 4: Tunnel in King's Cross. He said it inverted commas. It

704
00:40:23,041 --> 00:40:25,761
Speaker 4: was a gold mine and I picked them up. He

705
00:40:25,801 --> 00:40:29,361
Speaker 4: would describe torturing them, dumping their bodies down on the

706
00:40:29,401 --> 00:40:33,401
Speaker 4: Heathcote Road. Noel Manning came forward and gave that evidence

707
00:40:33,441 --> 00:40:36,561
Speaker 4: to police. Was due to appear in the court case

708
00:40:36,841 --> 00:40:39,841
Speaker 4: against Malatt in ninety six, but two weeks before the

709
00:40:39,921 --> 00:40:41,281
Speaker 4: trial killed himself.

710
00:40:41,721 --> 00:40:44,561
Speaker 1: George Savas, the gangster.

711
00:40:44,241 --> 00:40:48,001
Speaker 4: And corrupt politician, shared a seal with Malatt in Maitland

712
00:40:48,281 --> 00:40:53,001
Speaker 4: in the early two thousands. They were apparently organizing to escape.

713
00:40:53,281 --> 00:40:58,161
Speaker 4: The police became aware of it, they arrested them, separated them,

714
00:40:58,281 --> 00:41:01,081
Speaker 4: and the next day George Savas killed himself.

715
00:41:01,361 --> 00:41:02,241
Speaker 1: So a couple of.

716
00:41:02,281 --> 00:41:06,641
Speaker 4: Malat's long term prison mate have ended up, you know,

717
00:41:07,281 --> 00:41:10,561
Speaker 4: dead in their cell Les Rose is alive for the

718
00:41:10,601 --> 00:41:12,881
Speaker 4: time being, and we'd love to hear what he has

719
00:41:12,921 --> 00:41:16,041
Speaker 4: to say because apparently he's no fan of Malat, didn't

720
00:41:16,201 --> 00:41:18,281
Speaker 4: like him and lay on the bunk bend for a

721
00:41:18,281 --> 00:41:20,881
Speaker 4: couple of years listening to Malat wax lyrical.

722
00:41:21,041 --> 00:41:23,281
Speaker 1: So about what and about who? We want to know.

723
00:41:23,961 --> 00:41:28,161
Speaker 2: Another one you should be pursuing is who was a

724
00:41:28,241 --> 00:41:31,921
Speaker 2: cellmate of Malats at Golden Supermax. He later became a

725
00:41:31,961 --> 00:41:34,081
Speaker 2: Crown witness, so he may have to erase this afterwards

726
00:41:34,081 --> 00:41:37,241
Speaker 2: when I check with my lawyers, but I believe he's

727
00:41:37,281 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 2: in New Zealand and he was the one who told

728
00:41:40,561 --> 00:41:43,561
Speaker 2: my source that Malatt told him forgets seven.

729
00:41:43,601 --> 00:41:44,841
Speaker 3: It's more like thirty seven.

730
00:41:45,641 --> 00:41:49,001
Speaker 2: Yeah, So hopefully you can cast the net far and

731
00:41:49,081 --> 00:41:51,601
Speaker 2: wide and get all these people who are in the system.

732
00:41:51,641 --> 00:41:53,721
Speaker 2: And I think there's you know, back in the day

733
00:41:53,721 --> 00:41:56,001
Speaker 2: there was a code of silence, people were staunts.

734
00:41:56,041 --> 00:41:56,801
Speaker 3: They're not anymore.

735
00:41:57,361 --> 00:42:00,401
Speaker 2: And I wonder whether there can be there's lots of

736
00:42:00,401 --> 00:42:03,841
Speaker 2: rewards out there as well for the solving of these murders.

737
00:42:04,321 --> 00:42:07,321
Speaker 2: And you know, as much as it's a borring to

738
00:42:07,321 --> 00:42:10,121
Speaker 2: me that criminals can step up having been quiet for

739
00:42:10,241 --> 00:42:14,121
Speaker 2: years and accept rewards, is there a public interest in

740
00:42:14,201 --> 00:42:17,881
Speaker 2: paying cash prizes if you like, for this information.

741
00:42:18,681 --> 00:42:22,401
Speaker 4: Absolutely, and I think the reward system needs liberalizing. We

742
00:42:22,481 --> 00:42:27,841
Speaker 4: need rewards for information that leads to charges, not just convictions,

743
00:42:28,201 --> 00:42:29,561
Speaker 4: because what happens.

744
00:42:29,241 --> 00:42:31,721
Speaker 1: Is people come forward, they give evidence.

745
00:42:32,161 --> 00:42:35,961
Speaker 4: It's compelling at least at least brings people to understand

746
00:42:35,961 --> 00:42:39,721
Speaker 4: that this person was of interest. But then maybe the

747
00:42:39,761 --> 00:42:42,921
Speaker 4: evidence is deemed inadmissible or they're knocked out because they're

748
00:42:42,921 --> 00:42:46,081
Speaker 4: not a credible witness. And I'm not talking million dollar awards,

749
00:42:46,081 --> 00:42:48,561
Speaker 4: but if people can be induced to sort of come

750
00:42:48,601 --> 00:42:51,281
Speaker 4: forward and get paid fifty thousand bucks or one hundred

751
00:42:51,281 --> 00:42:55,281
Speaker 4: thousand bucks for information that leads to charges, where the

752
00:42:55,361 --> 00:42:59,321
Speaker 4: DPP says, okay, fair enough, that's enough for us to

753
00:42:59,401 --> 00:43:02,361
Speaker 4: lay charges and pursue this person, and then you know

754
00:43:02,401 --> 00:43:05,001
Speaker 4: it's over to the courts to then stack it up.

755
00:43:05,441 --> 00:43:07,801
Speaker 4: I think that that would get a lot more people

756
00:43:07,801 --> 00:43:10,601
Speaker 4: out of the woodwork because we're only paying out rewards

757
00:43:10,841 --> 00:43:14,361
Speaker 4: on convictions and those rewards aren't paid out. They really

758
00:43:14,401 --> 00:43:17,041
Speaker 4: aren't paid out. They're not So there's and what it

759
00:43:17,161 --> 00:43:20,641
Speaker 4: is is on the anniversary of a serious crime, the

760
00:43:20,641 --> 00:43:22,841
Speaker 4: head of the crime command will come out and say

761
00:43:23,081 --> 00:43:25,881
Speaker 4: we're upping the reward in this case from one hundred

762
00:43:25,921 --> 00:43:29,121
Speaker 4: thousand to five hundred thousand whatever, and everyone goes, Oh,

763
00:43:29,321 --> 00:43:33,441
Speaker 4: they're paying attention and doing something. Well, that's not enough.

764
00:43:33,761 --> 00:43:35,721
Speaker 4: What we really want to have a look at in

765
00:43:35,801 --> 00:43:39,761
Speaker 4: this inquiry is how these cold cases are managed. Because

766
00:43:39,761 --> 00:43:43,201
Speaker 4: there's the reward system I think is broken. The coronial

767
00:43:43,241 --> 00:43:46,481
Speaker 4: inquest system is broken. We have coronial inquests and if

768
00:43:46,481 --> 00:43:49,201
Speaker 4: there's a coronial in quest in New South Wales, the

769
00:43:49,241 --> 00:43:52,841
Speaker 4: procedure after the coronial inquest is for the case to

770
00:43:52,921 --> 00:43:55,801
Speaker 4: go in the freezer for five years. Now, why would

771
00:43:55,841 --> 00:43:58,081
Speaker 4: you do that if you've had all this new information,

772
00:43:58,921 --> 00:44:03,281
Speaker 4: you've had this exploration, everyone there talking about the issue,

773
00:44:03,401 --> 00:44:05,881
Speaker 4: and then you're not going to revisit it for five years.

774
00:44:06,201 --> 00:44:07,281
Speaker 1: Why wouldn't you do it?

775
00:44:07,441 --> 00:44:10,281
Speaker 4: And there's just this ad hoc approach to coronial inquest.

776
00:44:11,801 --> 00:44:15,601
Speaker 4: Some take five years, some take five months, some take

777
00:44:15,841 --> 00:44:19,561
Speaker 4: thirty five years. This ad hoc approach, we want to

778
00:44:19,561 --> 00:44:21,321
Speaker 4: do a deep dive. I want to reach out to

779
00:44:21,321 --> 00:44:25,721
Speaker 4: the FBI, New Scotland, yard other jurisdictions and find out

780
00:44:25,761 --> 00:44:30,601
Speaker 4: how they manage cold cases, they're forensics, how they're using

781
00:44:30,721 --> 00:44:35,121
Speaker 4: AI with their databases, how they're using AI in terms

782
00:44:35,161 --> 00:44:38,481
Speaker 4: of profiling. Because what I think we can do Adam

783
00:44:38,641 --> 00:44:41,121
Speaker 4: is really say what does it take to be a

784
00:44:41,161 --> 00:44:44,081
Speaker 4: serial killer? You have to be a mania you like,

785
00:44:45,161 --> 00:44:48,921
Speaker 4: they come out of just a couple of narrow strains

786
00:44:48,961 --> 00:44:55,081
Speaker 4: of existence where they end up this pathological homicidal maniac.

787
00:44:55,681 --> 00:44:59,921
Speaker 4: And we can basically reverse engineer some of our most

788
00:45:00,001 --> 00:45:03,881
Speaker 4: notorious criminals back then, and so you can rule a

789
00:45:03,921 --> 00:45:06,361
Speaker 4: lot out. You can say, well, look, we've got these

790
00:45:06,521 --> 00:45:09,721
Speaker 4: serial killers that we know about. Who are they, where

791
00:45:09,761 --> 00:45:12,521
Speaker 4: are they from, how did they become this person? And

792
00:45:12,561 --> 00:45:15,921
Speaker 4: then did they have the opportunity to do these other crimes?

793
00:45:16,121 --> 00:45:18,081
Speaker 4: And that's what I want to do with Ivan malap

794
00:45:18,401 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 4: who actually is he? Whind the tape back and then

795
00:45:22,801 --> 00:45:26,561
Speaker 4: wind it forward. What we're working under is that Malat's

796
00:45:26,561 --> 00:45:30,761
Speaker 4: a killer from the nineteen sixties, let's assume that, and

797
00:45:30,881 --> 00:45:34,041
Speaker 4: let's assume that he's a killer. He's a thrill killer

798
00:45:34,161 --> 00:45:38,281
Speaker 4: early on, is a rapist and a homicidal maniac. Where

799
00:45:38,441 --> 00:45:41,041
Speaker 4: is Ivan malatt On every day of his life from

800
00:45:41,041 --> 00:45:41,561
Speaker 4: that point on?

801
00:45:41,921 --> 00:45:44,161
Speaker 1: And were there any other crimes? And what we're going

802
00:45:44,241 --> 00:45:47,161
Speaker 1: to find is that there were. I'm certain of it.

803
00:45:48,361 --> 00:45:52,561
Speaker 2: Now other lad is dead. He can't hurt anybody anymore.

804
00:45:53,201 --> 00:45:56,401
Speaker 2: But what you're doing, you're pulling the thread on the tapestry.

805
00:45:57,081 --> 00:45:59,081
Speaker 2: It may well unravel before your eyes. There are other

806
00:45:59,121 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 2: people who may be out there have something to figure out.

807
00:46:03,041 --> 00:46:03,161
Speaker 4: Now.

808
00:46:03,201 --> 00:46:06,361
Speaker 2: I get asked all the time in my true crime career.

809
00:46:06,681 --> 00:46:10,001
Speaker 2: Aren't you worried personally about saying these things about people?

810
00:46:10,801 --> 00:46:13,161
Speaker 2: You live in the most corrupt stated in Australia's still

811
00:46:13,161 --> 00:46:16,201
Speaker 2: in New South Wales. Are you concerned for your personal

812
00:46:16,241 --> 00:46:17,681
Speaker 2: safety as you go into this whole thing?

813
00:46:18,841 --> 00:46:21,921
Speaker 4: No, not really, because if I get rubbed out Adam,

814
00:46:22,041 --> 00:46:26,641
Speaker 4: like everyone will knows right like say, hopefully.

815
00:46:26,121 --> 00:46:27,321
Speaker 1: They do some digging.

816
00:46:28,241 --> 00:46:30,561
Speaker 4: Being a member of parliament puts me in a class

817
00:46:30,601 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 4: of people where I'm pretty protected. You know, it's quite

818
00:46:33,601 --> 00:46:37,241
Speaker 4: rare for politicians to get rubbed out, to be shot

819
00:46:38,281 --> 00:46:39,681
Speaker 4: to be killed more consolation.

820
00:46:39,761 --> 00:46:41,201
Speaker 3: If it happens, though, my friend.

821
00:46:41,681 --> 00:46:45,161
Speaker 4: Well, as I'm bleeding out, I'll say I told you so,

822
00:46:46,401 --> 00:46:48,001
Speaker 4: and what are you going to do with your life?

823
00:46:48,161 --> 00:46:51,081
Speaker 4: Like if it's an MP, I want to pursue justice,

824
00:46:51,321 --> 00:46:54,961
Speaker 4: and pursue justice for some of the little people, like

825
00:46:55,081 --> 00:47:00,041
Speaker 4: the people the First Nations, young women, working class, regional

826
00:47:00,361 --> 00:47:04,881
Speaker 4: western suburbs. These are the people that the criminal justice

827
00:47:04,881 --> 00:47:08,801
Speaker 4: is them just fed into this maniac machine. They just

828
00:47:08,881 --> 00:47:12,241
Speaker 4: did not care enough to go out and catch this guy.

829
00:47:12,561 --> 00:47:14,681
Speaker 4: And so in terms of New South Wales, I think

830
00:47:14,681 --> 00:47:17,601
Speaker 4: it's a different place. It's a different place now. The

831
00:47:17,761 --> 00:47:20,881
Speaker 4: powers and people that were able to operate in that

832
00:47:20,961 --> 00:47:25,481
Speaker 4: time just can't operate now, they really can't. And I

833
00:47:25,521 --> 00:47:29,721
Speaker 4: think we're in a different time. We're honest about abuse

834
00:47:30,121 --> 00:47:33,401
Speaker 4: of young people. We're honest about domestic violence and the

835
00:47:33,481 --> 00:47:36,841
Speaker 4: incredible impact that that has. And people will say to me, oh,

836
00:47:36,881 --> 00:47:40,161
Speaker 4: you're the legalized cannabis MP, why are you doing this?

837
00:47:40,441 --> 00:47:43,721
Speaker 1: Well, I say that the war on drugs.

838
00:47:43,201 --> 00:47:47,201
Speaker 4: Has been what we should have just decriminalized drugs and

839
00:47:47,241 --> 00:47:51,841
Speaker 4: personal possession of drugs so that police resources can focus

840
00:47:51,881 --> 00:47:57,321
Speaker 4: on a war on thugs. Because domestic violence, violence in

841
00:47:57,361 --> 00:48:03,241
Speaker 4: our community has a societal impact, a profound intergenerational impact,

842
00:48:03,601 --> 00:48:06,441
Speaker 4: far beyond the impact of personal drug use, you know,

843
00:48:06,601 --> 00:48:10,001
Speaker 4: commercial drug use, sure, and commercial drug dealing.

844
00:48:10,241 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 1: Sure.

845
00:48:10,521 --> 00:48:14,561
Speaker 4: There's a role for police to suppress that, but so

846
00:48:14,761 --> 00:48:20,441
Speaker 4: much about policing resources goes into basically pursuing people over

847
00:48:20,801 --> 00:48:21,881
Speaker 4: a victimless crime.

848
00:48:22,121 --> 00:48:25,161
Speaker 1: Yet these other crimes, the police again and again.

849
00:48:25,001 --> 00:48:27,681
Speaker 4: And again say well, we've only got so many resources,

850
00:48:27,721 --> 00:48:30,361
Speaker 4: We've got all these murders on the books. What about

851
00:48:30,561 --> 00:48:32,881
Speaker 4: how do we possibly do these Well, I say, with

852
00:48:33,041 --> 00:48:36,121
Speaker 4: more people, with more money and better technology.

853
00:48:36,241 --> 00:48:38,361
Speaker 1: And that's what this parliamentary inquiry is about.

854
00:48:38,921 --> 00:48:40,881
Speaker 2: I have to agree because what I've seen over the

855
00:48:40,921 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 2: years is the cultivation of cannabis in particular has been

856
00:48:44,881 --> 00:48:48,601
Speaker 2: a cash flow for all kinds of other organized crime activity.

857
00:48:48,721 --> 00:48:50,681
Speaker 2: So I really think that's a very good point and

858
00:48:50,721 --> 00:48:53,681
Speaker 2: I hope you continue on that vein Now listen, how

859
00:48:53,721 --> 00:48:57,601
Speaker 2: can people get in touch with the inquiry and how

860
00:48:57,641 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 2: can they be sure that their information will be kept

861
00:49:00,961 --> 00:49:04,361
Speaker 2: confidential and so they can move forward with confidence.

862
00:49:05,081 --> 00:49:06,801
Speaker 4: They go to the New South Wales Party, if they

863
00:49:06,801 --> 00:49:10,601
Speaker 4: google up New South Wales Parliament Committee Unsolved Murders and

864
00:49:10,641 --> 00:49:14,961
Speaker 4: Missing Person's inquiry, it'll pop up. There's a page on

865
00:49:15,001 --> 00:49:18,841
Speaker 4: the new South Wales Parliament. If they look at committees

866
00:49:19,201 --> 00:49:22,721
Speaker 4: and Portfolio Committee number one, they'll see there that there's

867
00:49:22,801 --> 00:49:26,121
Speaker 4: current inquiries they put on that they'll see there and

868
00:49:26,161 --> 00:49:28,241
Speaker 4: they can make a submission and there's a box to

869
00:49:28,321 --> 00:49:29,681
Speaker 4: check confidential.

870
00:49:30,121 --> 00:49:32,881
Speaker 1: And if you make it confidential, no one sees it.

871
00:49:32,961 --> 00:49:35,561
Speaker 4: The police don't see it, the committee members and the

872
00:49:35,561 --> 00:49:37,881
Speaker 4: committee secretariat see it, and that's it.

873
00:49:38,281 --> 00:49:40,041
Speaker 1: Then it's confidential forever.

874
00:49:40,281 --> 00:49:43,801
Speaker 4: We've already had a number of people doing exactly that

875
00:49:44,321 --> 00:49:49,121
Speaker 4: we receive, you know. And people can have parliamentary privilege

876
00:49:49,281 --> 00:49:52,601
Speaker 4: in making a submission. They can make a submission and

877
00:49:52,641 --> 00:49:55,401
Speaker 4: if they appear it as a witness, they can say, look,

878
00:49:55,481 --> 00:49:58,041
Speaker 4: I was involved in some criminality et cetera, and so

879
00:49:58,201 --> 00:50:01,001
Speaker 4: forth that cannot be used against them. And a lot

880
00:50:01,001 --> 00:50:04,121
Speaker 4: of people they've run crime stoppers, they've gone to the cops,

881
00:50:04,281 --> 00:50:07,521
Speaker 4: they've been ign and so this is another opportunity. And

882
00:50:08,001 --> 00:50:10,921
Speaker 4: it just in the last few years where I've really

883
00:50:10,961 --> 00:50:13,841
Speaker 4: been doing a deep dive into this, the numbers of

884
00:50:13,841 --> 00:50:17,201
Speaker 4: people that have come forward with staggering information that I've

885
00:50:17,201 --> 00:50:20,481
Speaker 4: handed on to police and building this picture.

886
00:50:20,161 --> 00:50:23,201
Speaker 1: Of the number of these murders is just incredible.

887
00:50:23,801 --> 00:50:27,121
Speaker 4: I would have had in the last two years, about

888
00:50:27,441 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 4: twenty or thirty credible stories of people who escape, dive

889
00:50:32,561 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 4: in the lap, punched him in the head, ran off

890
00:50:35,441 --> 00:50:39,561
Speaker 4: from the car, saw him here, he approached them there,

891
00:50:40,001 --> 00:50:43,241
Speaker 4: saw this, saw that people from all walks of life,

892
00:50:43,761 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 4: going back all the way to.

893
00:50:45,401 --> 00:50:46,601
Speaker 1: The nineteen seventies.

894
00:50:46,881 --> 00:50:49,881
Speaker 4: And so when you start to piece it together, you've

895
00:50:49,881 --> 00:50:50,841
Speaker 4: got the outline.

896
00:50:51,241 --> 00:50:53,441
Speaker 1: Well, we've expanded that outline.

897
00:50:53,041 --> 00:50:56,121
Speaker 4: From the story of what we thought Ivan was familial,

898
00:50:56,521 --> 00:51:02,281
Speaker 4: suburban road worker into a career criminal, powerful associates, and

899
00:51:02,321 --> 00:51:04,921
Speaker 4: that picture is filling in very quickly.

900
00:51:05,481 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 3: Good. Well, I'll be there.

901
00:51:06,521 --> 00:51:11,641
Speaker 2: It's April of twenty twenty six April this year, and whether.

902
00:51:11,601 --> 00:51:13,041
Speaker 4: Or not you're like it or not, mate, we'll be

903
00:51:13,041 --> 00:51:16,241
Speaker 4: sending you a summons to it. You're in Victoria. It's

904
00:51:16,281 --> 00:51:19,081
Speaker 4: only people in New South Wales week and summons. So

905
00:51:19,081 --> 00:51:21,241
Speaker 4: we can get you at the airport if you're coming through.

906
00:51:21,561 --> 00:51:24,121
Speaker 4: But I'm sure you'd love to turn up and flap

907
00:51:24,161 --> 00:51:26,281
Speaker 4: your gums for a couple of hours out everything.

908
00:51:26,321 --> 00:51:26,521
Speaker 1: You know.

909
00:51:27,121 --> 00:51:29,161
Speaker 2: I'll definitely come there, but I won't sit too close

910
00:51:29,201 --> 00:51:31,041
Speaker 2: to you. Jerry Bucking Thank you so much for your time,

911
00:51:31,081 --> 00:51:33,601
Speaker 2: but I wish you all the very best. I think

912
00:51:33,601 --> 00:51:35,441
Speaker 2: you're a brave man and I think you're one of

913
00:51:35,481 --> 00:51:38,121
Speaker 2: the most decent politicians I've met. And if I was

914
00:51:38,161 --> 00:51:40,081
Speaker 2: the taxpayer in New South Wales, I'll be saluting you,

915
00:51:40,081 --> 00:51:40,921
Speaker 2: which I'm doing anyway.

916
00:51:40,921 --> 00:51:41,641
Speaker 3: So thanks for your time.

917
00:51:41,961 --> 00:51:43,801
Speaker 1: Thanks Adam Man. Straight back at you, mate.

918
00:51:43,841 --> 00:51:47,001
Speaker 4: The work you're doing is incredibly important, shining a light

919
00:51:47,041 --> 00:51:50,401
Speaker 4: into these dark areas and it gives a lot of

920
00:51:50,881 --> 00:51:54,681
Speaker 4: sucret of those families that their stories are heard and

921
00:51:54,721 --> 00:51:55,481
Speaker 4: their loved.

922
00:51:55,241 --> 00:51:56,121
Speaker 1: Ones are not forgotten.

923
00:51:56,201 --> 00:51:58,281
Speaker 4: That's really important work to do, and so good on you,

924
00:51:58,361 --> 00:52:01,121
Speaker 4: mate for the great work you do with your podcast

925
00:52:01,161 --> 00:52:02,201
Speaker 4: and your journalism.

926
00:52:02,321 --> 00:52:03,001
Speaker 1: Really important.

927
00:52:06,201 --> 00:52:09,321
Speaker 2: That was New South Wales politician Jeremy Buckingham. He's a

928
00:52:09,361 --> 00:52:11,561
Speaker 2: crusader and I love what he's doing. If you can

929
00:52:11,601 --> 00:52:14,441
Speaker 2: help shed light on these unsolved crimes or have information

930
00:52:14,561 --> 00:52:17,241
Speaker 2: on anything else, please see the link in the show

931
00:52:17,281 --> 00:52:20,761
Speaker 2: notes and make sure your voice is heard. You'll be

932
00:52:20,801 --> 00:52:23,081
Speaker 2: doing an enormous public service to the families of the

933
00:52:23,201 --> 00:52:26,561
Speaker 2: victims and the people of New South Wales. Of course,

934
00:52:26,641 --> 00:52:30,281
Speaker 2: as Jeremy says, Malat's reign of terror and murder extended

935
00:52:30,321 --> 00:52:34,161
Speaker 2: well beyond New South Wales, so perhaps this inquiry made

936
00:52:34,161 --> 00:52:38,921
Speaker 2: implications far beyond his home state, and maybe some accomplices

937
00:52:39,161 --> 00:52:42,361
Speaker 2: will have something to fear once more, because murder is

938
00:52:42,361 --> 00:52:45,641
Speaker 2: a crime you only truly get away with when you're dead.

939
00:52:45,681 --> 00:52:48,881
Speaker 2: As well, this has been Adam Shanfer Real Crime. If

940
00:52:48,921 --> 00:52:52,321
Speaker 2: you like our content, please subscribe and share the podcast.

941
00:52:52,721 --> 00:52:53,521
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.