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Speaker 1: December twenty six, two thousand and four, a nine point

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Speaker 1: two magnitude earthquake rocks the coastline of Indonesia's west coast

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Speaker 1: just before eight am local time. The deep sea quake

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Speaker 1: triggers a massive tsunami with waves up to thirty meters,

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Speaker 1: devastating communities across Indonesia, Sri Lanka, India and Thailand. Back

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Speaker 1: in Australia, forensic investigator with the New South Wales Police

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Speaker 1: Peter Baines is called on to help with the identification

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Speaker 1: of more than two hundred thousand victims of the natural disaster.

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Speaker 1: The impact of what he experienced will forever change Peter's

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Speaker 1: outlook and prompt him to make positive changes for the

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Speaker 1: communities affected. I'm at Middleton and this is Headgame today.

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Speaker 1: Peter Baines on his career in forensics, the horror fallout

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Speaker 1: of the Barley bombings and the Boxing Day Sunai and

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Speaker 1: how he's still helping devastated Thai communities twenty years on.

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Speaker 2: Peter, how are you, buddy.

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Speaker 3: I'm very well. Thank you mate, good good.

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Speaker 2: Good mate.

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Speaker 1: You've had quite a varied career, especially I like the

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Speaker 1: segue from going to university to study art and then

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Speaker 1: deciding to quit and join the police force, and then

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Speaker 1: obviously your career sort of thriving from then onwards, you know,

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Speaker 1: being a crime scene investigator.

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Speaker 2: How did that come about?

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Speaker 1: And is there police officers in your family or was

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Speaker 1: it just you were board of the university, you wanted

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Speaker 1: to challenge yourself and you thought, why not join the

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Speaker 1: police force?

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Speaker 2: How did that come about?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? So I went to UNI only because I got

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Speaker 3: the marks and not the brightest or the sharpest tool

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Speaker 3: and the shed and went down there and and you know,

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Speaker 3: because I wasn't connected to any course or any reason

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Speaker 3: to be there, didn't felt like I belonged, And handed

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Speaker 3: him a student card pretty quickly and thought, well, what

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Speaker 3: am I going to do now? And joining the police

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Speaker 3: had never been something I'd aspired to or thought much about.

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Speaker 3: It was no connection to the family, and it just

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Speaker 3: was one of those things that seemed to bit interesting

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Speaker 3: and thought we'll give that a go, and joined the cops.

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Speaker 3: So I graduated when I was nineteen, so I was

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Speaker 3: pretty young. And the funny thing is, you know, once

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Speaker 3: I joined the police, I'd return to university, I'd study science,

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Speaker 3: I'd study law, and graduate from both of them, so

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Speaker 3: I think, you know, for me it was a case

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Speaker 3: that what I enrolled in at the time wasn't the

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Speaker 3: right thing. And you know, as I say, joined the

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Speaker 3: cops and worked in uniform in general Judy's policing in

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Speaker 3: Western Sydney and really enjoyed that until I didn't and

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Speaker 3: then moved into the forensic area and that was where

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Speaker 3: I spent the best part of twenty years. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's such an interesting, interesting place to be in, such

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Speaker 3: a job that offered such diversity in what we did

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Speaker 3: each day.

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Speaker 1: And when you join the police force, did you join

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Speaker 1: knowing that you were going to go down this route

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Speaker 1: or did you join very much like you joined university?

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Speaker 1: You thought, you know what, I'm going to challenge myself.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to get out there. I'm going to join

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Speaker 1: the cops and see where it takes me. Or did

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Speaker 1: you have your career planned out? Because coh, we will

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Speaker 1: get into it. But what a career you had.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I think there's a bit of a pattern

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Speaker 3: here at that. There's not a lot of thought that

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Speaker 3: goes into a lot of things I do. And you

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Speaker 3: know that as well. Yeah, interesting places, doesn't it? It does?

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Speaker 2: Indeed, mate, I.

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Speaker 3: Think with the with uniform police, I just got sick

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Speaker 3: of dealing with drunks and attending domestics or attending domestics

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Speaker 3: that involved drunks, you know, and you know, as a

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Speaker 3: young bloke, you know, like I was attending domestics of

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Speaker 3: people who were being married longer than I And I

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Speaker 3: think I just grew tired of that pretty quickly and

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Speaker 3: found the investigation of major crime interesting. And you know,

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Speaker 3: that was the opportunity then to join in the forensic area.

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Speaker 3: And once I joined there, then I specialized through my

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Speaker 3: studies at Union in science and so forth, and you

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Speaker 3: know that was where I found my place.

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Speaker 1: How do you go about jumping on, you know, into

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Speaker 1: that sort of area and what did that look for you?

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Speaker 1: Because I know you said you jump back into unis

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Speaker 1: I suppose it, so you know that university life came

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Speaker 1: back around, but in a completely different realm.

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Speaker 3: Let's say, there was an opportunity to apply to a

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Speaker 3: join what we call the crime scene unit of the

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Speaker 3: Forensic Services Group, and that was a tending scenes of

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Speaker 3: major crime, suicide, suspicious death. And the training for that

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Speaker 3: that role was a four year science course and I

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Speaker 3: enrolled in that. We did that part time while I

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Speaker 3: was working, was sponsored through work, and then it was

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Speaker 3: actually giving evidence in relation to an arson trial. I

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Speaker 3: was sitting in the witness box and been in there

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Speaker 3: for a couple of hours, and it was a defense

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Speaker 3: barrister who was cross examining me, and you know, I

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Speaker 3: was sitting there thinking, there's all these holes in my

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Speaker 3: evidence because I'd written this statement years previous, and I'd

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Speaker 3: only been in that area for a short time, you know,

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Speaker 3: and you looked at it years later and thought, jeez,

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Speaker 3: this is different to what I'd write now. And sitting

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Speaker 3: in the witness box, I thought, you know, if I

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Speaker 3: studied law, I would have put myself in a unique

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Speaker 3: position of having been a crime scene investigator and studied

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Speaker 3: science as well. And so then I started studying law

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Speaker 3: at UNI and that was a six year course that

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Speaker 3: I graduated, and well, the whole time I was still

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Speaker 3: working in the police, and you know, as my career

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Speaker 3: developed within the forensic care I ended up doing the

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Speaker 3: international deployments, which totally changed the direction of my life.

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Speaker 2: Really, what really pulled you to that job?

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Speaker 1: What was I know you mentioned that when you were

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Speaker 1: in court given evidence, But what really pulled you to

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Speaker 1: that job.

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Speaker 3: Outside of that, yeah, I think it was you know,

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Speaker 3: in uniform, I was interested in the investigation of death,

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Speaker 3: and you know, I saw that providing answers became really important,

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Speaker 3: whether that was providing answers to criminal inquiries, to the

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Speaker 3: courts or to families. And you know, and I joined

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Speaker 3: the forensic area. There was a significant change in the industry,

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Speaker 3: so to speak. It was the evolution of the crime

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Speaker 3: shows on telebux CSI and and there was this real

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Speaker 3: integration of true science and so we were turning up

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Speaker 3: to scenes of homicides or sexual assaults and so forth,

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Speaker 3: and we were employing the practice of science, and you know,

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Speaker 3: and then you were and then there was this shift

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Speaker 3: I guess in criminal investigations and prosecutions, where previously they

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Speaker 3: relied upon admissions and unsworn statements and typed up records

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Speaker 3: of interview and things like that, and then the courts

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Speaker 3: decided that they probably weren't the most reliable pieces of

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Speaker 3: evidence based upon previous practices in decades gone past, and

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Speaker 3: so forensic evidence became more and more important. You know.

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Speaker 3: In one of the highlights of my forensic career was,

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Speaker 3: you know, attending a homicide. It wasn't famous for any reason,

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Speaker 3: but the whole job depended upon forensic evidence. It was

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Speaker 3: the offender had killed his wife and there was a

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Speaker 3: huge blood splash pattern within the bedroom and he'd cleaned

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Speaker 3: it up. Then he'd taken her away and buried her

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Speaker 3: in the bush. There was no witnesses, there was no CCTV,

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Speaker 3: there was no electronic evidence. There was nothing other than

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Speaker 3: forensic and you know, I spent days in that scene

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Speaker 3: measuring blood spots and doing trigonometry to determine the angle

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Speaker 3: of impact. And then you know, and it was just

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Speaker 3: a job that employed so many forensic techniques. And then

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Speaker 3: when the case was presented to court, based upon the

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Speaker 3: strength of the forensic evidence, he pleaded guilty to murder.

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Speaker 3: And it was you know, I look back at my

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Speaker 3: career and was involved in a what But it's one

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Speaker 3: of those jobs that just stands out as a real highlight.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're you're you're almost fusing science with with your

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Speaker 1: creative mindset, right, you know, You've got this this new

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Speaker 1: tool which is is forensic science, which you know doesn't

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Speaker 1: really lie. It does exactly what it says on the tin.

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Speaker 1: And then your creativity on Like you said, I love that.

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Speaker 1: You said, Look, you were looking at the angles, and

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Speaker 1: you know that's that comes from your mind, right, You're

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Speaker 1: really stimulating your mind. You're you're almost reliving. Is that

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Speaker 1: what you do? You retry and relive that situation as

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Speaker 1: if you were the killer.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, the forensic evidence is there and it's just

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Speaker 3: up to you then to collect or to identify, collect,

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Speaker 3: and then interpret the evidence. And you know, we didn't

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Speaker 3: read witness statements. We didn't you know, be influenced by witnesses,

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Speaker 3: because they can be wrong, they can lie, they can

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Speaker 3: do all that. But the forensic evidence, it's just it's there.

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Speaker 3: And there was a real, you know, I guess, a

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Speaker 3: sense of accomplishment when you could report back to the

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Speaker 3: investigators and say, you know, this is what's happened. This

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Speaker 3: is what i've identified. We found this blood splash here,

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Speaker 3: which means that she was laying down here. You know,

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Speaker 3: we've we've found this in his clothing that links him

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Speaker 3: to the scene. And there's the DNA that links him

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Speaker 3: to here, and and you know, package it all up

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Speaker 3: nice and send it off to the to the to

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Speaker 3: the prosecutors, and you know, it was a job well done,

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Speaker 3: and you know a lot of it rested on you

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Speaker 3: because you only ever got that one chance to walk

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Speaker 3: into a crime scene once and then after that, you

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Speaker 3: know was had been disturbed and so you know, it

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Speaker 3: was those type of jobs that there was the real

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Speaker 3: challenge and putting the pieces a puzzle together to provide

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Speaker 3: those answers to the court.

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Speaker 1: And you were, you were there during the transition from

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Speaker 1: like you said, the hard core statements that they used

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Speaker 1: to rely on, yeah, to the transition of forensic evidence.

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Speaker 1: What was it like from the very beginning, because I

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Speaker 1: suppose you were you were learning on the job, right,

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Speaker 1: you were building the blueprint for this. Did it give

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Speaker 1: you a lot more flexibility to really build this blueprint

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Speaker 1: or did you just figure it out on the on

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Speaker 1: the hoof, on the go.

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Speaker 3: Yeah? No, I like that job that I'm talking about,

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Speaker 3: this homicide in a rural town called Tenorfield on the

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Speaker 3: border of New South Wales and Queensland. Like it was

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Speaker 3: a job where you know, the offender had beaten his

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Speaker 3: wife to death and then cleaned up all of the blood,

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Speaker 3: so he thought. But there was what we could then

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Speaker 3: use was chemicals such as what's called Lumino, Luco crystal violet,

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Speaker 3: and we could then identify the marks on the wall

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Speaker 3: where he'd been cleaning it up with rags and so forth.

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Speaker 3: And previously colleagues of mind ten years prior to that

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Speaker 3: would have walked in some well there's nothing to see

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Speaker 3: here because he'd cleaned it up, right. But when we've

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Speaker 3: got these, you know, these new applications of science, you're

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Speaker 3: able to go into the crime scene and go, well,

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Speaker 3: hang on, let me try this, let me do this,

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Speaker 3: and then reveal what wasn't obvious.

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Speaker 2: It was a complete game changer. Game changer.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, And you know, the reliance within the you know,

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Speaker 3: within the court system shifted to this heavy reliance upon

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Speaker 3: forensic evidence and DNA evidence, and that created its own

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Speaker 3: problems as well. But you know, I think when it's

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Speaker 3: presented to the court and to the juries, you know,

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Speaker 3: there's there's a rock solid position that that forensic evidence

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Speaker 3: would bring to criminal trials and inquests, and I.

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Speaker 1: Suppose it opened up a whole new world to cold

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Speaker 1: cases as well. But yeah, was it something that really

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Speaker 1: hit you or were you just focused on the progression

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Speaker 1: of this new science or as soon as that was implemented.

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Speaker 1: Did the cold cases come in, you know, hard and fast?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think a lot of the police agencies

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Speaker 3: around the world have dedicated teams the two cold cases.

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Speaker 3: And you'll hear about it. You know that some evidence

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Speaker 3: that was collected, and this was the thing, right, you

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Speaker 3: could collect so much evidence and there was a saying

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Speaker 3: where someone would say what are you looking for? And

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Speaker 3: you say, I don't know until I find it, you know,

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Speaker 3: and you go there and you collect all of this

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Speaker 3: evidence and you never knew the value of it, and

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Speaker 3: but one day that might be relevant. And that's the

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Speaker 3: you know what a lot of these cold cases that

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Speaker 3: have been solved, you know, decades on a link back

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Speaker 3: to something that was collected. It's been hell a profile

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Speaker 3: might have been taken from it. Then as the advances

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Speaker 3: in technology through DNA and PCR and these types of

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Speaker 3: things that enhance such minute pieces of evidence that you know,

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Speaker 3: can now be amplified and allows these cold cases to

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Speaker 3: be to be solved and you know, for families of

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Speaker 3: of murder victims or so forth. You know, it's obviously

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Speaker 3: something where you can close that down and you know,

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Speaker 3: and that was the work that we did in Thailand.

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Speaker 3: With identifying the bodies and returning them to families and

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Speaker 3: you know, through the benefits of forensic evidence.

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Speaker 1: Can you take me back to to the moment when

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Speaker 1: you got that call, when what the international team looks like.

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Speaker 1: I suppose it's you know, when you're in Australia, it's

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Speaker 1: Australia focused.

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Speaker 2: How does that international team work?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so too different scenarios, you know, like Bali where

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Speaker 3: we went after the bombings in two thousand and two.

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Speaker 3: There was two hundred and two people who died, eighty

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Speaker 3: eight Australians, and it was really an Australian led operation

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Speaker 3: within Bali, and Australia had the capacity, had the resources,

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Speaker 3: had the knowledge, and because of the large number of

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Speaker 3: Australians who were lost, it was an Australian led investigation

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Speaker 3: and we were there supporting the Indonesian police and so forth.

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Speaker 3: But I think you know, to your point around leading

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Speaker 3: large international teams in Thailand, we would have four hundred

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Speaker 3: and fifty forensic staff who would come from thirty six

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Speaker 3: different countries, and there was nothing that was set established

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Speaker 3: like as to who would have overall leadership. Now, the

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Speaker 3: ties we were obviously working in their country, but they

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Speaker 3: were preoccupied with what we would call the community policing

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Speaker 3: issues of dealing with the disaster and the crisis and

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Speaker 3: restoring the order to the places that were most affected.

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Speaker 3: But the physical identification of the bodies was done by

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Speaker 3: the international teams and thirty six countries turned up at

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Speaker 3: some point to assist in the identification based upon their

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Speaker 3: nationals who were lost. Because in Thailand we recovered five

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Speaker 3: three hundred and ninety five bodies. That was and it

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Speaker 3: remains the world's largest ever attempt at disaster victim identification

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Speaker 3: thousands big of a nine to eleven. I was on

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Speaker 3: holidays on the south coast of New South Wales with

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Speaker 3: my family and because the breaking news of the tsunami,

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Speaker 3: it started out like the report to the Australian embassy

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Speaker 3: in Bangkok was that there's been a bit of a

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Speaker 3: tidal way. There could be people injured and potentially fatality.

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Speaker 3: So that was the initial report how it went through

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Speaker 3: and then it obviously escalated quite quickly and I first

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Speaker 3: saw about it on the news when the news broke

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Speaker 3: and said this is what was happening. And I was

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Speaker 3: a couple of hours out of Sydney, and the first

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Speaker 3: teams to deploy, had four hours notice, which in concluded

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Speaker 3: travel time from Sydney to Canberra to board a charted flight.

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Speaker 3: And so I didn't go on the first deployment because

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Speaker 3: I couldn't get back to Sydney in time. So I

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Speaker 3: was a couple of days later. But while I was

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Speaker 3: on holiday's work rang me and said, you need your

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Speaker 3: holidays are over, come back. You're heading to Thailand.

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Speaker 2: So you know, get yours on the plane.

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Speaker 3: Now, that's exactly right. And I flew across to Singapore,

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Speaker 3: then from Singapore down to Puquet And you know, I

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Speaker 3: guess from the moment that I knew that there was

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Speaker 3: a high death toll based upon the work I'd done

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Speaker 3: in Bali, that the call would come, and it came

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Speaker 3: within hours, and and you know, headed across and yeah,

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Speaker 3: it was a big job, that's for sure.

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Speaker 1: So when you get there, Peter, and like you said,

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Speaker 1: you know there's teams from thirty six countries. There's no

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Speaker 1: set hierarchical structure. I suppose you report into your own

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Speaker 1: country's teams. How do you know who's taking lead, How

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Speaker 1: do you know who's doing what?

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Speaker 2: Or do you just naturally fall back on your training?

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Speaker 2: It kicks in.

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Speaker 1: You go into a big hangar, there's people everywhere and

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Speaker 1: you go right where am I needed? How does it

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Speaker 1: look when you get the ground, because I can imagine

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Speaker 1: it's complete and utter chaos.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you're absolutely right, you know, like we when someone

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Speaker 3: dies in Thailand, they will take your body to a temple,

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Speaker 3: and temples are called a what wat and so as

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Speaker 3: the bodies were found in the hotels, on the beaches

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Speaker 3: and so forth, they taken to a temple called what yanyoo,

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Speaker 3: and there would be three and a half thousand decomposing

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Speaker 3: bodies taken to this one temple. Now, who's in charge

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Speaker 3: of this operation? And how do you identify, you know,

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Speaker 3: like a leadership structure and so forth, And there was

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Speaker 3: nothing in place that said this is the country that

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Speaker 3: will take the lead of the investigation or take the

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Speaker 3: lead of the operations. But the leaders were identified by

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Speaker 3: what they did. So the Australians held so many of

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Speaker 3: the key leadership positions. And I'd suggest to you the

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Speaker 3: reason that we held those positions was because we acted

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Speaker 3: with speed and we moved first. We didn't have any

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Speaker 3: greater skill, experience, expertise. We didn't have access to resources

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Speaker 3: that the other countries didn't. We didn't lose more people

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Speaker 3: than anyone else. As a country, we only lost twenty

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Speaker 3: five people. The Germans lost five hundred, the Swedes lost

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Speaker 3: five hundred, the Ties two and a half thousand. But

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Speaker 3: it was what the Australian leaders did that put them

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Speaker 3: into those positions of leadership. And as you know, the

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Speaker 3: first to move will so often hold that position of

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Speaker 3: leadership until you do something wrong where you're replaced, people

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Speaker 3: will continue to follow it. And that's exactly what happened.

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Speaker 3: It was just because we started to take action and said,

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Speaker 3: all right, you guys here, how about you head over

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Speaker 3: to Krabi and you start processing the bodies. Here, you guys,

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Speaker 3: if you can find out, you know, one hundred refrigerated

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Speaker 3: shipping containers, that's what we're going to need you guys here,

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Speaker 3: if you start doing this. So all that is is

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Speaker 3: a plan, right, there's nothing complex about it. So it

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Speaker 3: was just the fact that the Australian leaders started taking

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Speaker 3: action and people followed, and then you know, within the

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Speaker 3: weeks then there was a you know, a leadership structure

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Speaker 3: that was put in place with the overall authority rested

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Speaker 3: with the Ties, but we established two lines of operation,

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Speaker 3: two joint chase ASA and you know, with the head

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Speaker 3: person being the head of the Tie Police because we're

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Speaker 3: in their country. But basically all of the identification work

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Speaker 3: was done by the international teams.

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Speaker 1: How do you jump into action when you go to

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Speaker 1: a temple and where do you start? And what do

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Speaker 1: you feel when you're looking at these bodies? Because I

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Speaker 1: know that you're used to used to dealing with, you know,

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Speaker 1: identification and the forensic science of identifying for certain individuals.

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Speaker 1: But god, you're in a different country. You know, you've

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Speaker 1: got a whole different culture there. What's going through your.

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Speaker 2: Head the moment that you see that this temple?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, like it was it was really interesting. Like as

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Speaker 3: we approached time, they were flying up in a helli

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Speaker 3: and coming into land and would find up the coast

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Speaker 3: and so you saw the indiscriminate destruction of some of

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Speaker 3: the hotels and you saw the damage. Right. You could

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Speaker 3: see that the water, you know, it just flows in

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Speaker 3: and to it hits resistance, which was the escarpment a

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Speaker 3: couple of chiometers away, and you know where there was

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Speaker 3: a lot of destruction, and you know, to jump forward

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Speaker 3: a little bit, it wasn't as bad as the destruction

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Speaker 3: when I worked in Japan in twenty eleven after the

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Speaker 3: tsunami there, that was because of the geography and the

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Speaker 3: topography where it was. There was you know, high ravines

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Speaker 3: and so forth, where Thailand its flat, so the water

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Speaker 3: could you know, flow across. But as we came into land,

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Speaker 3: so you're flying up in the hell are you're just

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Speaker 3: looking out at the destruction, and then there was a

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Speaker 3: smell of death. And if you've smelt death, you know

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Speaker 3: that there is nothing like it, and it's it's unmistakable.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I'd spent my entire forensic career if

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Speaker 3: I wasn't exposed to death on a weekly basis. It

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Speaker 3: was unusual. So as I came in to what Yanya

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Speaker 3: as a hell is, coming into land, you could smell

380
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Speaker 3: the death, and walking through the temple gates for the

381
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Speaker 3: first time, the trucks were quite literally writhing tip trucks,

382
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Speaker 3: just full of bodies. And you know, as you would know,

383
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Speaker 3: the things that advance decomposition of a body's heat and water,

384
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Speaker 3: they've been in the water and we're in temperatures that

385
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Speaker 3: are now in the high thirties on a daily basis,

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Speaker 3: so there is advanced decomposition. And this is days later

387
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Speaker 3: and there's no refrigeration, there's no ice, says nothing, And

388
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Speaker 3: people say I can't imagine, and I say that's a

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Speaker 3: good thing. You don't need to imagine what the changes

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Speaker 3: go through to the bodies. But that was our job,

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Speaker 3: right And you ask about what was the head game

392
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Speaker 3: like and what was the headspace like. And it was

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Speaker 3: interesting because this was a humanitarian response where Bali that

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Speaker 3: was a terrorist activity. And there was a time when

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Speaker 3: I stood outside the crater at the Sari Club in

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Speaker 3: the Ballei bombings and a motorbike drove up to the

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Speaker 3: crater and the only thing that separated because there was

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Speaker 3: an L three hundred Mitsubishi van that was detonated out

399
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Speaker 3: in front of the Sari Club created a large crater.

400
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Speaker 3: I still on the other side of the crater. This

401
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:32,359
Speaker 3: motorbike rode up and that was the mo O of

402
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Speaker 3: the suicide bomber who went into Paddy's Bar across the road,

403
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Speaker 3: jumped off his motorbike, walks in with a backpack, helmet

404
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Speaker 3: on and detonates the id. Now, as I stood there

405
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Speaker 3: on the opposite side of this crater, this motorbike drove

406
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Speaker 3: straight up, stopped on the other side of the crater,

407
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:55,119
Speaker 3: walked straight up towards me with his backpack on, his

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Speaker 3: helmet on his visor down, and I thought, holy shit,

409
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Speaker 3: is this a second attack? You know, And nothing happened,

410
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Speaker 3: you know, maybe a minute or two later, you turn around,

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Speaker 3: got back on his motorbike and drove away. And the

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Speaker 3: whole time that we were in Bali, our hotel was

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Speaker 3: guarded by the military because of the threats against us

414
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Speaker 3: while we were there, So every day we're escorted to

415
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Speaker 3: and from the hotel, there was military that guarded the

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Speaker 3: hotel and that had a real impact upon, you know,

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Speaker 3: how everyone was feeling. Yet Thailand was this humanitarian response

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Speaker 3: where you know, there was none of that, none of

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Speaker 3: that occurred, and all we had to deal with was

420
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Speaker 3: our own emotions. And I've always found the best thing

421
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,399
Speaker 3: you can do in something like this is just getting

422
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Speaker 3: in and take action, you know. And you know, we

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Speaker 3: had one of Australia's leading pathologist who sat at the

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Speaker 3: end of one of our early days here and he said,

425
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Speaker 3: all we can do here because of the scale, is

426
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 3: a token effort. But the international deployment finished twelve months later,

427
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Speaker 3: and there were four hundred bodies that weren't identified out

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Speaker 3: of five and a half thousand, and the reason they

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Speaker 3: were unidentified was just because we couldn't get what we

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Speaker 3: call anti mortem information. So this was a massive international undertaking,

431
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Speaker 3: you know. And but from a headspace, you know, I've

432
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Speaker 3: always said that the most difficult days we're dealing with

433
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Speaker 3: the relatives of someone who died, but the most rewarding

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Speaker 3: days we're dealing with the families of someone who lost someone.

435
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,120
Speaker 3: And you know, it's this real juxtaposition where and you've

436
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 3: got to find this balance. Right.

437
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 2: It's a great way to put it, mate, It's a

438
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 2: great way to put it.

439
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 1: I like how you just broke that down, and that's

440
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 1: how you process it, right, It's how you've obviously come

441
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 1: up with that defense mechanism, and that's how you that's

442
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 1: how you process it, and that's how you move on.

443
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:01,479
Speaker 3: Like I spent days carrying the bodies of children in

444
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 3: my arms, and we take them out of the shipping

445
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 3: container where they're frozen at minor s eight degrees, and

446
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 3: we take them up and lay them down. You open

447
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,479
Speaker 3: the body bag and you look at the innocence in

448
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 3: the faces of these kids. You move their hair out

449
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 3: of their eyes, and you go, I don't want to

450
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 3: do this anymore. You do that a couple of times

451
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 3: a day and you go, get me out of here.

452
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 3: But of course we had to stay.

453
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,879
Speaker 1: How do you keep doing it, Peter? How how do

454
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:37,159
Speaker 1: you pick up a child, multiple children, on a daily

455
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: basis of pure innocence? You know, I've got five children myself.

456
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,959
Speaker 1: You know, I love the innocence. I love protecting the

457
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 1: innocence of my children. I find that, you know, super

458
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 1: rewarding role. How do you not just go, I'm done?

459
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 1: What's stopping you from from getting back on that plane?

460
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 3: And there's a massive pool to go back, you know,

461
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 3: to be with your family. But I think you know,

462
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 3: this was what our job was, and I know that

463
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,880
Speaker 3: you can relate to having this clarity of purpose around

464
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 3: what you do. And you know, I met a tie

465
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 3: woman who had lost her son, and she traveled six

466
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 3: hours from the north of where we were to collect

467
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 3: the body of her son. She turned up in a

468
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 3: beat up utility to receive the body of her son

469
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 3: in a body bag, put him in the back of

470
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 3: the utility, drive him six hours home. And we'd been

471
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 3: caught by this once before, and we went no more,

472
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 3: because it doesn't matter who you are, no one deserves

473
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 3: the indignity of receiving their child in a body bag.

474
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 3: So we bought some coffins ourselves, so when this lady

475
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:52,959
Speaker 3: turned up, we're able to give her the body of

476
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 3: her son and we give her a coffin to take

477
00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 3: him home in. Now she had more grace, more dignity,

478
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 3: tea and more compassion than anyone I've ever met, because

479
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 3: all she could do was thank us for the work

480
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 3: that we'd done. But you know, the world's not necessarily

481
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 3: a fair place because I didn't meet this beautiful lady

482
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 3: just once. She didn't come twice, but three times she

483
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 3: made that twelve hour journey to collect the three bodies

484
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,919
Speaker 3: of her children. She kept conning until she had no

485
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 3: more family left, and each time she came she had

486
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 3: that same level of grace, dignity, and compassion and made

487
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 3: me feel incredibly bad every day. But for me, the

488
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 3: opportunity to return the body of her children, of her

489
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 3: child to her, that was my clarity of purpose. That

490
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 3: was why I was there.

491
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: And that's why I asked, because there is you know,

492
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:05,479
Speaker 1: even in these situations that are so negative that you know,

493
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 1: there couldn't possibly be an ounce of light or an

494
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: ounce of positivity. It's it's in those emotions that you

495
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: find them, and that it's those emotions that artically keep

496
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: you there.

497
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 2: Another day and then another day and then another day.

498
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: And it's that human connection, I would say, And you know,

499
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 1: that human inter reaction that is so powerful that you

500
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: know unless you're there and in it and living it

501
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: and breathing it and feeling it and you know, then

502
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: then that's where you make the decisions.

503
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I knew, but me being away would have

504
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 3: an impact upon my family. I knew it had have

505
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 3: an impact upon me. But how I rationalized that was

506
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,719
Speaker 3: that we would recover from that. But the families who

507
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 3: lost their loved ones, you know, if I could do something,

508
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 3: it was to provide them the answer. It was allowed

509
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 3: that it was to give them their loved one back

510
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 3: so they could bury them according to their faith and

511
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 3: their belief and the dignity of you know, of of

512
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 3: receiving their loved one back. And that was why I

513
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 3: was there. And I'd suggest that was why the hundreds

514
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 3: of forensic you know, practitioners who came from all around

515
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 3: the world were driven by the same thing. It was

516
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 3: what we did.

517
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: Peter, how to you, and this is a personal question

518
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: to you, how do you recover from that? You said

519
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: it earlier that you never want anyone to imagine, You

520
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: never want anyone to see. How do you recover from

521
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: something like that and then go back into it years

522
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: later and stay in that job?

523
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 2: How does it affect you and how does it affect

524
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 2: your family?

525
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 1: From a real honest approach and standpoint.

526
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's no question that it had an impact. And

527
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 3: you know, many of the colleagues that I worked with

528
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 3: over the my forensic career would leave the work with PTSD.

529
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 3: And you know, how are twenty years on they're still

530
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 3: medicated and you know they will be. And it's always

531
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 3: a question as to how I came out of it

532
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 3: without any clinical depression or you know, PTSD or anything

533
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 3: like that. And you know, there can be lots of

534
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 3: reasons that we might you know, put forward or so forth,

535
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 3: but I don't know, like I you know, I met

536
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 3: a group of kids on my last tour who were

537
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 3: living in a tent. They'd all lost their parents, they'd

538
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 3: lost their homes, and the tent that they were living

539
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 3: in wasn't some temporary structure that was their home. And

540
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 3: I realized I couldn't change what had happened, but I

541
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 3: felt I could change what happened next for them. So

542
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 3: I set up a charity called Hands Across the Water,

543
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 3: and for a couple of years I still work full

544
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 3: time in the police. And then I started, you know,

545
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 3: starting sharing leadership stories and getting paid to do that.

546
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 3: And then I use that payment to build a home

547
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 3: for these kids. And I thought it was a twelve

548
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 3: month commitment. Here we are, we just celebrate twenty years. Wow,

549
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 3: we've raised forty million dollars. We put fifty six kids

550
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 3: through university. And I think it was I think the

551
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 3: establishment of the charity, although I don't you know, it

552
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 3: certainly wasn't at the time, but as I reflect, I

553
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 3: think that that has been that therapy, you know, for

554
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 3: an understanding, you know, as taking perspective too. And I

555
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 3: you know, a story that stays with me in one

556
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 3: of the kids is that I met a young boy

557
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 3: who would come and live in our home, and he

558
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 3: was running from the wall of water with his grandfather,

559
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 3: and fifty meters in front of them was a building.

560
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 3: If they could get to that building gave them the

561
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 3: best chance of survival. Now, run as fast as they could.

562
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 3: They will never going to be able to outrun the

563
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 3: wall of water. They got to a tree and they

564
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 3: climbed the tree, and granddad dragged his little grandson to

565
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 3: the top of the tree. Now they made it, they

566
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 3: were safe, they were cut, they were bleeding, But there

567
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 3: was no celebration at the top of the tree because

568
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 3: when Granddad was running, he had one grandchild in his

569
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 3: right hand, and in his left hand he had another grandchild. Now,

570
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 3: when they got to the base of the tree, Granddad

571
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 3: knew if he didn't survive, none of them would. He

572
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 3: also knew he couldn't climb the tree hanging on to

573
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 3: both of his grandchildren. He had a decision to make.

574
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 3: Which one of his kids would he take up the tree?

575
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 3: And which one would he let go of? And how

576
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 3: do you make that decision? He let go of one

577
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 3: of his grandkids. He was washed away and he did die.

578
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 3: And meeting that grandfather, from years on I would see

579
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 3: him and he was a broken man, and how could

580
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 3: you not be? His grandson would come and live with us,

581
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 3: and we were able to provide him with a home

582
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:56,359
Speaker 3: with education and you know, he lost his granddad and

583
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,839
Speaker 3: he died a broken man, and you know those stories

584
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 3: and it's why I do what I do and why

585
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 3: I've continued to do what I do. And I think that,

586
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 3: you know, I consider the challenges that we're exposed to

587
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 3: as a gift. Every day is a gift, you know,

588
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 3: the shitty times, the struggles we face, the friends, our

589
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 3: family is a gift. And I think having been exposed

590
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:36,240
Speaker 3: to death and destruction and loss on so many levels

591
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,879
Speaker 3: for such a long time, there's two ways you can go,

592
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 3: you know. You can that can be death by a

593
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 3: thousand cuts, or I choose to feel as though, you know,

594
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 3: I'm so incredibly grateful for the opportunities, you know, And

595
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 3: to celebrate acknowledge the twenty year anniversary of the tsunami

596
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,439
Speaker 3: in decemberlast year, I did a fourteen hundred kilometer run

597
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 3: through Thailand, and you know, running sixty k's a day

598
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 3: for twenty six days. It's the hardest thing I've ever done.

599
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 3: But every day I reflected on the gratitude I had

600
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 3: to be able to do that. And you know, I

601
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 3: think doing hard things is good for you, and you know,

602
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 3: it builds resilience that builds physical strength, that builds mental strength,

603
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 3: that connects you on some soulful valveel better. So all

604
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 3: of these experiences that I've had, I honestly feel grateful

605
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 3: that I was able to go to Bali, I was

606
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 3: able to go to Thailand to make that difference. I

607
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 3: was able to start the charity. See these kids graduate

608
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 3: from university, and you know, then to do this run

609
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,399
Speaker 3: last December. It was the best thing I've ever done

610
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 3: in my life. It was the hardest thing, but it

611
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 3: was the best thing.

612
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 1: And it sounds like Peter that you know, you're very

613
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 1: much like myself. You need a challenge in your life,

614
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: not only to keep your mind stimulated, but something to overcome,

615
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 1: something to to you know, put all that emotion and

616
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: you know, experience I call it life experience rather than

617
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 1: life trauma into so you can funnel it through it

618
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 1: through a positive sort of source of outcome, so you

619
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: can process it and you can you can carry on,

620
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 1: like you said, without PTSD, without you know, falling into

621
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 1: into these into this dark, spiraling headspaces. But what happens, Peter,

622
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 1: when for you when that all stops, are you scared?

623
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,800
Speaker 2: Are you frightened to stop?

624
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: And have you ever thought about when that does stop,

625
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: where you might go from then onwards?

626
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, really really interesting question. And you know, when I

627
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 3: came back from time, and I can only imagine it

628
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 3: was similar for you when you came back from a

629
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 3: deployment and then you're walking through the shopping center and

630
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 3: you're going, how do people do this?

631
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 2: Do they not understand?

632
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 3: And you know, like we were there for a month

633
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 3: at a time, and in that initial deployment, you know,

634
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 3: we were working eighteen hours a day and for a

635
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 3: month straight, didn't have any time off, and you came

636
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,240
Speaker 3: home from that, and you go, how can the world

637
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 3: just continue? Don't they know what I've been exposed to?

638
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:36,399
Speaker 3: And the thing was, I went back pretty quickly, and

639
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 3: for all of two thousand and five, I was backwards

640
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 3: and forwards right, So I didn't have this this loss,

641
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 3: this grief of being involved in what was, you know,

642
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 3: an unprecedented opportunity and something that would define my career.

643
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 3: And then at the end then I had an opportunity

644
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 3: to work for Interpol on a highly classified counter terrors

645
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 3: and projects. So I kind of went from one thing

646
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 3: to the other to the other. And I'd always called

647
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 3: that it was kind of like a clinical case of

648
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 3: post holiday blues. You know, we come back and go, ye,

649
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 3: what's next? You know, Where's what am I going to do?

650
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:17,919
Speaker 3: And give me going?

651
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,879
Speaker 2: I know it all too well? Bea I know all

652
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 2: too well.

653
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 3: Like going into the run this year like it was.

654
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 3: It was so important, you know, and the fear of

655
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 3: failure drove me so much because I I just I

656
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:38,760
Speaker 3: had to finish on Boxing day. There was so much support,

657
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 3: so many people invested in me, and the fear of

658
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 3: failure drove me so hard. Right, And I'd spoken to

659
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,800
Speaker 3: a sports side prior to the run, and we talked

660
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 3: about all of these communication protocols, what would happen if

661
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:55,439
Speaker 3: I had to be pulled off the road, who would

662
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 3: do it? How would all that work? Right? And we

663
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 3: talked about what it would be like after the run,

664
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 3: and we both thought because I was aware of it

665
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 3: and because I'd experienced it on some level, I'd be okay.

666
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 3: But within forty hours of finishing the run, so I succeeded,

667
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 3: you know, I completed a fourteen hundred kilometer run. It

668
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 3: went perfectly, but within forty hours I was in this

669
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 3: deep dark hole and I stayed there for weeks. And

670
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 3: the scary thing I said to my wife, who was

671
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 3: there with me every step of the way, was what

672
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 3: would I have been like if I hadn't have succeeded,

673
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 3: you know, if I'd failed, if for some reason I

674
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 3: hadn't finished. And we've got a farm, and we went,

675
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,840
Speaker 3: you know, we left Thailand a couple of days after

676
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 3: the run, came home and went straight to the farm,

677
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:53,799
Speaker 3: and the two of us just we were grieving what

678
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 3: we had lost, which was the run, right, And the

679
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 3: only thing that really brought me out of that was

680
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 3: on the fifteenth of January, so just over two weeks

681
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 3: after finishing the run, I went back to Thailand and

682
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 3: led an eight hundred kilometer bike ride and I had

683
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 3: fifty people who were there to ride in the acknowledgment

684
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 3: of the twenty year anniversary for the charity, and I

685
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 3: had to lead it. And it was therapy on the

686
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,760
Speaker 3: back of a bike, right because I'm riding the same

687
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 3: route that weeks before i'd run, and I knew the

688
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 3: end of the story. I knew it was a happy ending,

689
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 3: I knew what it was about, and it really helped

690
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,479
Speaker 3: me shift because then I was riding with people who

691
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,720
Speaker 3: this eight hundred kilometer bike ride would be the biggest

692
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 3: thing they would ever do. The needle had moved for me,

693
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 3: like you curr't run fourteen hundred kilometers in twenty six

694
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 3: days and not have the needle moved. But it was

695
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 3: really important for me to acknowledge that the biggest thing

696
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 3: you do is the biggest thing you'll do. So I

697
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,839
Speaker 3: couldn't take away from them the struggles they were going

698
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 3: through on the bike where I'm sitting there, going I

699
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 3: just ran sixty k's a day. You know, you're complaining

700
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 3: about you know, ninety kmeter bike cry. That was my stuff.

701
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 3: That was my story, and so being with them on

702
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 3: that bike was therapy. And so that was you know,

703
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 3: it was unexpected how deep it was and how dark

704
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 3: it was. And you know, my running coach he said

705
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,359
Speaker 3: to me, I reckon, I'll take you six months physically

706
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 3: and mentally to recover. And he's pretty right. And it's

707
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 3: really interesting. You know, I wrote a book. I've written

708
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 3: four books, and I wrote a book called Together we

709
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 3: Can about the run in the twenty years. And my

710
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 3: wife finished reading it and she said, I actually feel sad,

711
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 3: She said, I feel sad that the story has ended,

712
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 3: and she said, just that meme, we won't do anything

713
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 3: as big as that again. And it's what ten months

714
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 3: since I finished the run, and what's dangerous is now

715
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 3: we're talking about is there something else?

716
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 1: You know, Like I think for you, Peter, I don't

717
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: think you can stop me.

718
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:17,800
Speaker 2: I don't think at the moment.

719
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 1: You're in that position and it's probably a good position

720
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: for you, but a whole position where you know, and

721
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:28,240
Speaker 1: I say a couple of you know, when it stops,

722
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 1: then you know, the nightmares begin, right. It's it's it's

723
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 1: something that that challenges and it has to keep going

724
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 1: until you can't go anymore. Really, I would say, you know, yeah,

725
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 1: it feels very much like that.

726
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, you don't want to let the old man in.

727
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 1: No, no, yeah exactly. You keep him at bay as

728
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 1: much as you can.

729
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, Like you know, like when I started training

730
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 3: for the run, because I wasn't really a runner before

731
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 3: I made this commitment, and that was why I chose

732
00:43:57,880 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 3: to run, because I went, this is going to be

733
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 3: really hard. You know, the chances of failure are pretty high,

734
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:05,720
Speaker 3: and that's why I should do it, you know, because

735
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 3: there was no certainty about it, and you know, and

736
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 3: I think like I look at like we go back

737
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 3: to the beginning of this chat where I talked about

738
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 3: just joining the cops. It was no plan then just

739
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 3: drawing the frenzy carry you know, and you know, colleague, yeah,

740
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 3: and the lead up to COVID, I went, I love

741
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 3: being in Helles, you know, through my policing days, I

742
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 3: loved it. So I went and became a helicopter pilot,

743
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 3: you know, got my license to fly Helles and and

744
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 3: there's things that you just keep doing. Well, I just

745
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 3: keep doing. You go like, I don't know, I get

746
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 3: there's growth in this stuff, and you know, something to

747
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,839
Speaker 3: plan for and to physically you know, I'm fifty eight

748
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 3: and that was the age when I finished this run.

749
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 3: I go, that's really cool, you know. And you know,

750
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:51,760
Speaker 3: I heard something the other day and it was about

751
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 3: don't let your dreams be defined by your age, and

752
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 3: you know, and so who knows what we do next.

753
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 3: I had been looking on mapping software about the distance

754
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 3: from the top to the bottom and of Thailand, and

755
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 3: so it's it's a scary if we start talking about it,

756
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 3: because it's likely to happen.

757
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 2: But it's needed.

758
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 1: May and Lizzie like I said, I think, you know,

759
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,280
Speaker 1: I think for you this is this is the approach

760
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 1: of the common denominator that you've you've you know, you've

761
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: been through your whole life. Mine is very much the same.

762
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 1: I jump in the deep end with my dive boots

763
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:28,839
Speaker 1: on and I'll figure it out. And then there's got

764
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 1: to be another challenge because if I'm twidding my farms

765
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 1: and I'll get into trouble whatever it may be. You know,

766
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:38,760
Speaker 1: it's and again keeping my mind activated, keeping my mind

767
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:44,280
Speaker 1: stimulating enough for me not to sit down and reminisce

768
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,839
Speaker 1: from the past or bring up you know, certain situations

769
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:49,959
Speaker 1: that I've been in that can you know, that could

770
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: really put me in a bad headspace. So is there

771
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 1: ever any moments because the bizarre situation happened to me

772
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 1: where where where you smell something and it would take

773
00:45:59,920 --> 00:46:02,280
Speaker 1: you back to a location or where you hear something.

774
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:05,359
Speaker 1: And how do you deal with those moments? And how

775
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:06,360
Speaker 1: often do they come around?

776
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:11,360
Speaker 3: Yeah? Thankfully not often, you know. And I think for me, like,

777
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 3: you know, I'm so fortunate I went through my career

778
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 3: and you know, came out in a really good space,

779
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 3: and you know I did. There was a time when

780
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 3: I was working on the tools as a crimesin investigator,

781
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 3: and we had this huge number of fatalities in this

782
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 3: one particular summer, and you know, there was a motor

783
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 3: vehicle collision with a Toyota van and it had exploded

784
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 3: in fire, and there was four kids burnt to death,

785
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:43,400
Speaker 3: and you know, we've just done this, this really unusual

786
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 3: number of deaths in a row. And it was summertime

787
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 3: and we went on holidays and my oldest boy was

788
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 3: only young at the time, and I walked past the

789
00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 3: bedroom he was in and he'd pulled the sheet up

790
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 3: over himself so his entire body was covered by a

791
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 3: sheep and it spun me out and just seeing him

792
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 3: like that. But there's only a few times in my

793
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 3: career where that kind of impact. But as you say,

794
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 3: smell was something that is a really strong sense, isn't it.

795
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 3: You know? And for me, you know that thankfully, not

796
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 3: often do you smell anything like a burnt or decomposed human.

797
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 3: And because it's so unique.

798
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I say that because I'm again I'm very fortunate

799
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: that I don't. I've probably used the same sort of

800
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: survival techniques or you know, coping mechanisms in you, but I,

801
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,360
Speaker 1: you know, that's from PTSD in a really good headspace.

802
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 2: But I was on a plane.

803
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,879
Speaker 1: I was watching a fit and I never watched sort

804
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,800
Speaker 1: of you know, combat or war movies, and I watched

805
00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 1: a film called Loan Survivor Mark Wahlberg, and it was

806
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: about Afghanistan and how mission went wrong. Of course it was,

807
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:08,399
Speaker 1: And then I was watching it and watching and thinking, yeah,

808
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 1: you know.

809
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 2: This is this isn't too bad.

810
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 1: And I was thinking, you know, the weapons are really

811
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 1: really you know, relatable, and the way they're moving is

812
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 1: really relatable. And obviously Loan Survivor there was someone that

813
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 1: survived that's now doing the film. That sort of made

814
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 1: sense because I thought, you know what, this is really realistic.

815
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 1: And they got into a firefight and it was the

816
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 1: way that they moved that I could hear the friction

817
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 1: of the materials on a cock vessel and the way

818
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,240
Speaker 1: that there's certain noise that it made. And I remember

819
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: watching on a plane and I could the way that

820
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 1: and it was through not through smell, but through through sound,

821
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, I was watching them go

822
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 1: through these great contact drills and the sound of the

823
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 1: equipment rubbing against the against the clothing and I could

824
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 1: taste Afghanistan in my mouth. I thought I had sand

825
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: in my mauth. I remember going, you know, looking at

826
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 1: the TV, and I obviously didn't have sand in my mouth,

827
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 1: and I just remember pausing the TV and getting up

828
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 1: and go out for a walk, and I thought, do

829
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: you know, I'll watch that when.

830
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 2: I get home.

831
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 1: But I remember just thinking to myself, Wow, that was

832
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 1: just a noise that no one else would relate to,

833
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 1: Like the smell that no one else would relate to.

834
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 1: That just took me back to that moment where I

835
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,239
Speaker 1: generally could taste Afghanistan in moment and not from a

836
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 1: PTSD standpoint, but just it just took me back there.

837
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:29,839
Speaker 2: And because of.

838
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 1: What you've been through, what you've seen, you know, I

839
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:35,400
Speaker 1: was just wondering, if those are those moments, you know,

840
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: which they obviously they do. They ever come back and

841
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: sort of take you by surprise? Shall we say?

842
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and it is by surprise, yeah yeah, when

843
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 3: that happens. And you know, and I think we can

844
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 3: both say that we're grateful that, you know, it's such

845
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:55,240
Speaker 3: a rare occurrence that happens, and because you know, clearly

846
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 3: we would both have you know mates and colleagues who

847
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 3: live with that, you know all the time, and it's

848
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 3: body sad.

849
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:05,320
Speaker 2: Peter, absolutely phenomenally.

850
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:10,959
Speaker 1: You've had a phenomenal, diverse career and you're still going strong. Mate,

851
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:14,439
Speaker 1: Best of luck with the charity. That seems like it's

852
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 1: going from strength to strength. Now tell me about this book.

853
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:20,799
Speaker 1: Where can I get it? And what's it called? And

854
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 1: what is it about? You said it's about the Run.

855
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a fourth book, and I guess that, like

856
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 3: going into the Run, I thought, unless something goes terribly bad,

857
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,799
Speaker 3: that there will be a book in it. And you know,

858
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:37,360
Speaker 3: I look at the lessons I learned through my forensic

859
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 3: days and building hands and take readers on that journey

860
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 3: of the lead up as to why I started the charity,

861
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 3: what took me to Thailand, then the setting up of

862
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 3: the charity, then the run. And it was a really

863
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 3: enjoyable book to write. And I think it's a story

864
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 3: of when you have this collision of purpose, passion and

865
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 3: committed individuals. You know, and no different to what you did,

866
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 3: except no one was shooting at me, but you know

867
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 3: what you can do together. You know, as individuals, we're

868
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 3: not necessarily brilliant at any one thing, you know. But

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00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,760
Speaker 3: when we get a group of people together and that run,

870
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:30,799
Speaker 3: it's like the story of Hands, of raising forty odd

871
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:34,400
Speaker 3: million dollars of you know, sending fifty six kids through UNI.

872
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 3: It's not my story to own, it's ours, and the

873
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:43,200
Speaker 3: book is the same. It's this beautiful reflection. Well I

874
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 3: think it is anyway of you know, of what can

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00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 3: be achieved when you have that approach, and yeah, it's

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00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 3: I loved.

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00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:54,840
Speaker 2: It, Pizza.

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00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:58,880
Speaker 1: It's been an absolute pleasure. Listen, keep doing you, keep

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00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:03,320
Speaker 1: being you for now a bit of advice, don't stop.

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00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 3: I think that's the case, mate.

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00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 1: Peter has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much, mate,

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00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:13,360
Speaker 1: and best of luck with your next challenge.

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00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 3: Thank you, thanks San, good on you, mate.

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00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 1: Peter's latest book, Together We Can, is available now. I'll

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00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:21,879
Speaker 1: put the details of the book and how you can

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00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:25,240
Speaker 1: support Hands across the Water in the show notes. Blow

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00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 1: thanks for joining me on this episode of Headgame. If

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00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 1: you enjoyed this episode, please leave me a review.

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00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 2: I'm at Middleton. See you again next time.