1 00:00:05,881 --> 00:00:12,841 Speaker 1: Apoge production. I've just retired from the New South Wales 2 00:00:12,841 --> 00:00:16,721 Speaker 1: Police Force after almost thirty seven years and started in 3 00:00:16,761 --> 00:00:19,521 Speaker 1: the western suburbs of Sydney. My command was Blacktown and 4 00:00:19,561 --> 00:00:22,001 Speaker 1: then moved on to the streets of Cabramata where I 5 00:00:22,041 --> 00:00:25,121 Speaker 1: first got introduced to working on gangs and operated a 6 00:00:25,121 --> 00:00:27,521 Speaker 1: small gang squad at Cabramatter in the nineties called the 7 00:00:27,601 --> 00:00:30,961 Speaker 1: Cabramata Gang Squad, so focused on street gangs were known 8 00:00:30,961 --> 00:00:33,681 Speaker 1: as the Five t then moved on to the State 9 00:00:33,721 --> 00:00:36,601 Speaker 1: Crime Command, which is an area of specialist detectives, and 10 00:00:36,921 --> 00:00:39,721 Speaker 1: became the commander of the Asian Organized Crime Squad, and 11 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:41,961 Speaker 1: then I became the commander of the Middle Eastern Organized 12 00:00:42,001 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: Crime Squad for eight years, and before I retired, I 13 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:46,881 Speaker 1: was the commander of the Gang Squad and Strike Force 14 00:00:46,961 --> 00:00:50,361 Speaker 1: Raptor for six years. So I targeted in those days 15 00:00:50,601 --> 00:00:54,681 Speaker 1: Asian organized crime, Middle Eastern organized crime and outlaw motorcycle gangs. 16 00:00:54,801 --> 00:00:57,721 Speaker 1: Cabramata was a really interesting place. It takes on the 17 00:00:57,761 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: face of the immigration policy of the day, so it's 18 00:00:59,921 --> 00:01:02,601 Speaker 1: had many faces. It's had Eastern Europeans and then of 19 00:01:02,641 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: course when the last wave of refugees arrived here in 20 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,121 Speaker 1: the late eighties. Then it really as the people started 21 00:01:08,121 --> 00:01:10,401 Speaker 1: getting out of the detention centers. It had a number 22 00:01:10,401 --> 00:01:14,241 Speaker 1: of kids that didn't have families, so without education, without language, 23 00:01:14,241 --> 00:01:16,681 Speaker 1: they bonded together and became a really a rabble of 24 00:01:16,721 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: street kids very quickly because of their I suppose their 25 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,681 Speaker 1: violence and their level of preying on the vulnerable community 26 00:01:23,961 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: who didn't understand our laws. Then quickly they grew in reputation, 27 00:01:27,801 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: so came from doing street robberies, extortions and then moved 28 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: into what was recognized as probably the biggest street level 29 00:01:34,521 --> 00:01:37,121 Speaker 1: distributions that are of heroin the Southern hemisphere, if not Australia, 30 00:01:37,161 --> 00:01:41,481 Speaker 1: but certainly heralded sometimes as the Southern Hemisphere. And from 31 00:01:41,521 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: that command affair feat of violence, territorial protection, and it 32 00:01:46,761 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: sort of flew under the radar a fair bit because 33 00:01:48,881 --> 00:01:51,161 Speaker 1: the community we were extremely tolerant I guess of what 34 00:01:51,241 --> 00:01:54,681 Speaker 1: was occurring, and it wasn't until the political assassination of 35 00:01:54,761 --> 00:01:58,641 Speaker 1: John Newman in nineteen ninety four and then the murder 36 00:01:58,641 --> 00:02:01,681 Speaker 1: of the leader of that five T gang in ninety 37 00:02:01,721 --> 00:02:05,321 Speaker 1: five that the focus then suddenly turned onto Cabramatis then 38 00:02:05,401 --> 00:02:08,081 Speaker 1: became one would say a media and a political hotspot. 39 00:02:08,161 --> 00:02:10,641 Speaker 1: The started off really that they weren't that big. The 40 00:02:10,721 --> 00:02:13,841 Speaker 1: media would have you betray and even cops, you know, 41 00:02:13,881 --> 00:02:16,201 Speaker 1: would see an Asian with a tatoo and say they're 42 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,441 Speaker 1: five to t. The reality is the five two are 43 00:02:18,441 --> 00:02:21,361 Speaker 1: really really parochial and stayed within their area, and there 44 00:02:21,441 --> 00:02:24,801 Speaker 1: was only at their peak about senior members about thirty 45 00:02:25,121 --> 00:02:27,161 Speaker 1: and then they had street runners, et cetera, et cetera. 46 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,921 Speaker 1: So it wasn't big in numbers, but big in reputation. 47 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,201 Speaker 1: So they lived up to their reputation, which helped them 48 00:02:34,441 --> 00:02:36,841 Speaker 1: gain notoriety because then ma they go and do an extortion. 49 00:02:37,321 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: They had the reputation, which is what most gangs rely 50 00:02:39,561 --> 00:02:42,641 Speaker 1: upon as But they started off by simply as they 51 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,161 Speaker 1: will say, and they were very keen to share their 52 00:02:46,201 --> 00:02:49,161 Speaker 1: background when we were trying to help them not be 53 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:53,441 Speaker 1: a gang, and they would say things like, we weren't 54 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,161 Speaker 1: violent kids. We were kids in a prison camp in Thailand, 55 00:02:56,281 --> 00:02:58,881 Speaker 1: and we came here with expectations of a brand new life. 56 00:02:58,921 --> 00:03:01,401 Speaker 1: But when we get here, we don't have any language skills, 57 00:03:01,401 --> 00:03:03,521 Speaker 1: we have no education, so we're not going to get 58 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,881 Speaker 1: a job, so we have no hope. So he bonded 59 00:03:05,921 --> 00:03:08,161 Speaker 1: together and of course coming out of that was a 60 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,401 Speaker 1: number of murders were committed by very young ones. But 61 00:03:11,601 --> 00:03:13,881 Speaker 1: coming out of that was Treemintran who was the leader 62 00:03:13,881 --> 00:03:15,921 Speaker 1: of the five T gang. He emerged as a very 63 00:03:16,001 --> 00:03:20,361 Speaker 1: very charismatic leader and highly respected and any had a 64 00:03:20,361 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 1: reputation of having committed a murder and not being jailed 65 00:03:24,161 --> 00:03:26,201 Speaker 1: for it. So there's a whole lot of dynamics going 66 00:03:26,201 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: in with that group of who's respectful. And they had 67 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,481 Speaker 1: a hierarchical structure as well, so it was quite an 68 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:37,161 Speaker 1: interesting dynamics. But they weren't your classic organized crime gang 69 00:03:37,321 --> 00:03:40,801 Speaker 1: at that stage, are quite quite parochial. It's interesting because 70 00:03:40,881 --> 00:03:45,001 Speaker 1: I worked at the Middle Eastern organized crime squad as well, 71 00:03:45,401 --> 00:03:47,441 Speaker 1: and it was probably a bit of a misnomer because 72 00:03:47,441 --> 00:03:50,001 Speaker 1: although it had a level of organized crime, it was 73 00:03:50,081 --> 00:03:53,121 Speaker 1: really random and at hock. Whereas I suppose the first 74 00:03:53,161 --> 00:03:55,721 Speaker 1: time we start to see, in my view, what's really 75 00:03:55,841 --> 00:03:59,801 Speaker 1: organized is the outlall motorcycle gangs. Because they have a 76 00:03:59,881 --> 00:04:03,681 Speaker 1: national footprint, an international footprint. They've lasted since the forties. 77 00:04:03,681 --> 00:04:06,961 Speaker 1: They're resilient, they're robust. The members may come and go, 78 00:04:07,041 --> 00:04:10,281 Speaker 1: but the banner or the reputation remains. I spend most 79 00:04:10,281 --> 00:04:12,201 Speaker 1: of my career, particularly in the last few years, we 80 00:04:12,321 --> 00:04:15,201 Speaker 1: did a lot of work with vulnerable use and even 81 00:04:15,241 --> 00:04:16,641 Speaker 1: in the nineties with Capra Matt A lot of that 82 00:04:16,681 --> 00:04:20,801 Speaker 1: focus was taking out the glamorization. Street gangs in those 83 00:04:20,881 --> 00:04:24,201 Speaker 1: days weren't that glamorous, but certainly gangs like the outlaw 84 00:04:24,281 --> 00:04:28,001 Speaker 1: motorcycle gangs pray on young people by using the romance 85 00:04:28,081 --> 00:04:30,401 Speaker 1: of a gang and what we all offer you. So 86 00:04:30,521 --> 00:04:35,201 Speaker 1: I guess my law enforcement hat says anything that attracts 87 00:04:35,361 --> 00:04:38,041 Speaker 1: young vulnerable kids to these gangs, which is a life 88 00:04:38,121 --> 00:04:41,121 Speaker 1: setting them up to fail death going to jail, I 89 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:45,841 Speaker 1: really object to. And in fairness Toanilo, I probably wasn't 90 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:47,761 Speaker 1: on the street as much as as like my team, 91 00:04:47,801 --> 00:04:50,121 Speaker 1: because you know they would do the heavy lifting. I 92 00:04:50,161 --> 00:04:54,361 Speaker 1: guess I signed the overtime form and mainly we had 93 00:04:54,361 --> 00:04:58,161 Speaker 1: a lot to do with other associates Tongue and Sam 94 00:04:58,241 --> 00:05:00,601 Speaker 1: for example, and things like that. So people that. 95 00:05:00,561 --> 00:05:02,881 Speaker 2: You'd send out were more aware of me than what 96 00:05:02,921 --> 00:05:04,561 Speaker 2: that would be. The ones who were on the streets 97 00:05:04,601 --> 00:05:05,601 Speaker 2: would be more aware of me. 98 00:05:05,681 --> 00:05:08,161 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly what years were you working for John? 99 00:05:08,401 --> 00:05:13,361 Speaker 2: I was there from two thousand and two to three 100 00:05:13,561 --> 00:05:15,801 Speaker 2: till two thousand and the start of twenty forty. 101 00:05:16,041 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I was doing largely in those years the 102 00:05:19,001 --> 00:05:21,721 Speaker 1: Asian organized crime and then moved on to I was. 103 00:05:21,681 --> 00:05:23,161 Speaker 2: There when you would have been doing the party shooting 104 00:05:23,161 --> 00:05:23,761 Speaker 2: and all like that. 105 00:05:24,001 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, party shooting was some Yeah, that's right in the. 106 00:05:27,521 --> 00:05:30,681 Speaker 2: Middle of the nineties, two tho thousand and nine, two 107 00:05:30,681 --> 00:05:33,721 Speaker 2: thousand eight, yeah and nine. What do you think about that? 108 00:05:33,921 --> 00:05:38,561 Speaker 1: No, look, I think it's like anything, and it frustrates 109 00:05:38,561 --> 00:05:40,361 Speaker 1: the organized crime actually frustraight. 110 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:44,121 Speaker 2: Oh you just think I don't worry about it. Let 111 00:05:44,121 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 2: them kill themselves. 112 00:05:44,801 --> 00:05:47,241 Speaker 1: Well no, not at all, not at all, because any 113 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:49,521 Speaker 1: you know, every life matters, and that's not that's not 114 00:05:49,601 --> 00:05:52,521 Speaker 1: a cliche. You do that because what we're concerned if 115 00:05:52,601 --> 00:05:56,921 Speaker 1: if a shooting happens, then we know in the organized 116 00:05:56,921 --> 00:05:59,601 Speaker 1: crime world, there's going to be paybacks, absolutely, and the 117 00:05:59,721 --> 00:06:04,881 Speaker 1: risk is and this is indiscriminate, mindless shooting back and forward. 118 00:06:05,201 --> 00:06:08,321 Speaker 1: That puts every innocent community member at risk, people who 119 00:06:08,601 --> 00:06:10,601 Speaker 1: don't deserve to be you know, in the Brothers for Life, 120 00:06:10,601 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: which was a group of Afghani guys using the title 121 00:06:14,801 --> 00:06:17,721 Speaker 1: Brothers for Life versus the Lebanese Crew from Bankstown using 122 00:06:17,721 --> 00:06:19,961 Speaker 1: the title Brothers for Life. Really it was over copyright. 123 00:06:20,201 --> 00:06:22,881 Speaker 1: During that fear, we saw a thirteen year old girl 124 00:06:23,041 --> 00:06:26,280 Speaker 1: get shot in the back, you know, at Blacktown totally 125 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,241 Speaker 1: interest so you know how close to that. So that 126 00:06:29,241 --> 00:06:31,961 Speaker 1: that's why we take every shooting. But it frustrates us 127 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,241 Speaker 1: because we know when we go to an organized crime shooting, 128 00:06:35,601 --> 00:06:38,241 Speaker 1: we know before we walk into that hospital room, they've 129 00:06:38,281 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 1: shut down the words out, tell the cops nothing. So 130 00:06:42,121 --> 00:06:44,961 Speaker 1: not only do we, they often will frustrate us. And 131 00:06:45,001 --> 00:06:46,721 Speaker 1: that you know, we sort of say, leave it to us, 132 00:06:46,801 --> 00:06:50,121 Speaker 1: help us, let's let the justice system work, and let's 133 00:06:50,481 --> 00:06:51,761 Speaker 1: take a deep breath and let us do it. 134 00:06:51,801 --> 00:06:54,281 Speaker 2: Tell us what you know, percenter the time, it's they 135 00:06:54,281 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 2: want paper saving face. 136 00:06:56,641 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 1: It's some ridiculous code about well we have to strike 137 00:07:00,081 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: bigger and harder, like really, but what often happens is, 138 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,681 Speaker 1: I know there was a recent murder of I don't 139 00:07:06,681 --> 00:07:10,161 Speaker 1: know whetherhose four more gang member or still was, but 140 00:07:10,881 --> 00:07:13,601 Speaker 1: the rest there wasn't any then tit for tat biky 141 00:07:13,641 --> 00:07:17,001 Speaker 1: shootings my understanding after that, not like we were seeing 142 00:07:17,041 --> 00:07:19,401 Speaker 1: in Newcastle back you know, two years ago, where it 143 00:07:19,441 --> 00:07:22,481 Speaker 1: was just you know, things versus nomads. What you often 144 00:07:22,521 --> 00:07:26,121 Speaker 1: see when you have a small spike of shootings is 145 00:07:26,161 --> 00:07:29,721 Speaker 1: that other knuckleheads out there go, oh, great, there's been 146 00:07:29,761 --> 00:07:32,601 Speaker 1: a shooting. If we go and now do our mindless shootings, 147 00:07:32,721 --> 00:07:35,241 Speaker 1: they'll think it's linked to that. But the cops are 148 00:07:35,241 --> 00:07:38,081 Speaker 1: smart and they quickly work out that a lot of 149 00:07:37,601 --> 00:07:40,961 Speaker 1: the shootings aren't related. And as most of the shootings 150 00:07:41,041 --> 00:07:44,801 Speaker 1: were again nothing less serious. But shooting into houses like 151 00:07:44,881 --> 00:07:48,681 Speaker 1: what is that about shooting into houses? Like what apart 152 00:07:48,761 --> 00:07:52,241 Speaker 1: from being dangerous? What cowardly shoot houses? Don't shoot back? 153 00:07:52,721 --> 00:07:55,001 Speaker 1: So what are you hoping to prove by shooting into 154 00:07:55,041 --> 00:07:57,721 Speaker 1: a house except to say, oh, look how tough I am. Really? So, 155 00:07:57,841 --> 00:07:59,801 Speaker 1: what we would do when I was in the cops, 156 00:07:59,801 --> 00:08:02,921 Speaker 1: when we would have a whole spat of shootings, we 157 00:08:03,001 --> 00:08:05,921 Speaker 1: would certainly go out and get basic reports, but we 158 00:08:05,961 --> 00:08:08,681 Speaker 1: were trying Our game was to we're never probably going 159 00:08:08,721 --> 00:08:10,401 Speaker 1: to put the gun in the hand of someone who 160 00:08:10,401 --> 00:08:15,241 Speaker 1: shoots up a house, because crime figures will use underlings. 161 00:08:15,281 --> 00:08:20,921 Speaker 1: I'll use the junior members who were expendable, so putting 162 00:08:21,121 --> 00:08:22,801 Speaker 1: them in, cussing all the effort you might put in 163 00:08:22,841 --> 00:08:24,761 Speaker 1: putting trying to put a gun in that person's hand 164 00:08:24,801 --> 00:08:27,921 Speaker 1: that shot that house is often not the best use 165 00:08:28,001 --> 00:08:31,441 Speaker 1: of resources. So we go hard on disrupting their whole 166 00:08:31,481 --> 00:08:34,761 Speaker 1: criminal business. And when we're doing it with outlaw motorcycle gangs, 167 00:08:35,041 --> 00:08:37,561 Speaker 1: when we were doing Stripe fors Raptor, then we had 168 00:08:37,561 --> 00:08:41,921 Speaker 1: a whole model called consequence based policing, and the commander 169 00:08:41,961 --> 00:08:44,401 Speaker 1: of the tactical units there on Beach you would say, 170 00:08:44,881 --> 00:08:48,041 Speaker 1: if one person plays up in the club, the whole 171 00:08:48,041 --> 00:08:50,881 Speaker 1: lot of you catch the cold, and we'd go right 172 00:08:50,921 --> 00:08:53,321 Speaker 1: through the club with we had over twenty five different 173 00:08:53,361 --> 00:08:56,761 Speaker 1: tactical options and treatment options. We could choose like a menu, 174 00:08:57,041 --> 00:08:58,601 Speaker 1: what are we going to use today on this group, 175 00:08:58,761 --> 00:09:01,681 Speaker 1: et cetera. And then you go to outlaw motorcycle gangs 176 00:09:01,721 --> 00:09:04,161 Speaker 1: and I didn't understand, you know, I knew what they were, 177 00:09:04,401 --> 00:09:07,321 Speaker 1: but I thought, what what makes them tick? So I 178 00:09:07,361 --> 00:09:10,721 Speaker 1: actually went to the staff and tell me everything about 179 00:09:10,761 --> 00:09:13,521 Speaker 1: the culture of this, about what why do you want 180 00:09:13,561 --> 00:09:15,121 Speaker 1: to be an outlaw much? And they went through they 181 00:09:15,161 --> 00:09:20,761 Speaker 1: listed what the I suppose the traits of club they like. Firstly, 182 00:09:20,921 --> 00:09:24,481 Speaker 1: they like to wear colors, you know, leathers with the 183 00:09:24,961 --> 00:09:26,361 Speaker 1: name of the gang on it. You know, I call 184 00:09:26,401 --> 00:09:30,561 Speaker 1: it there disrespectfully. They told me, well, the fancy dress outfits, 185 00:09:30,921 --> 00:09:32,961 Speaker 1: why do they do, why do they wear? What's the 186 00:09:32,961 --> 00:09:34,841 Speaker 1: significance of these colors? And now I'll give you a 187 00:09:34,881 --> 00:09:38,281 Speaker 1: whole spiel about, you know, the historic significance blah blah. 188 00:09:38,401 --> 00:09:42,121 Speaker 1: The reality is if John Smith walks into a business 189 00:09:42,641 --> 00:09:44,601 Speaker 1: and says, Hi, I'm you know, I'm here to extort you, 190 00:09:45,041 --> 00:09:46,801 Speaker 1: so you've got to pay me a thousand bucks a week. 191 00:09:47,201 --> 00:09:49,321 Speaker 1: But if you see three guys walking wearing a Hell's 192 00:09:49,361 --> 00:09:53,041 Speaker 1: Angels set of colors, they're going, oh, no, this is business. 193 00:09:53,041 --> 00:09:54,641 Speaker 1: I don't want to I don't want to cross that 194 00:09:54,761 --> 00:09:57,321 Speaker 1: because I'll have the whole gang here, you know, doing 195 00:09:57,361 --> 00:10:00,481 Speaker 1: stuff to me. So firstly, they needed the reputation to 196 00:10:00,561 --> 00:10:02,641 Speaker 1: be able to intimidate, so that's the first thing. They 197 00:10:02,681 --> 00:10:05,881 Speaker 1: also love to have clubhouses, so they needed somewhere to 198 00:10:05,921 --> 00:10:08,761 Speaker 1: hang out, called it church Night. They also like to 199 00:10:08,761 --> 00:10:11,401 Speaker 1: do national runs like go down the Highway once a year. 200 00:10:11,401 --> 00:10:14,321 Speaker 1: The whole club was required to go. You know, you know, 201 00:10:14,601 --> 00:10:17,001 Speaker 1: let's just tear down the highway and show our presence here, 202 00:10:17,001 --> 00:10:19,201 Speaker 1: you know how tough we are. They also like to 203 00:10:19,281 --> 00:10:21,761 Speaker 1: run taboo parlors, and that wasn't often a business model. 204 00:10:22,561 --> 00:10:26,041 Speaker 1: They like to have firearms. It's a whole range of 205 00:10:26,121 --> 00:10:28,801 Speaker 1: aspects of what made them, you know, like hang out 206 00:10:28,801 --> 00:10:31,321 Speaker 1: in groups, have to hang out in groups. So we 207 00:10:31,401 --> 00:10:35,121 Speaker 1: went through and just said, so, let's start using the 208 00:10:35,201 --> 00:10:38,361 Speaker 1: law that we have or laws that we could apply 209 00:10:38,521 --> 00:10:41,681 Speaker 1: for to take away everything they like.