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Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

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Speaker 1: It's Friday, January thirty, twenty twenty six. Susan Lee is

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Speaker 1: expected to announce a new Liberal front bench in coming days,

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Speaker 1: as federal politicians prepare to return to Canberra for the

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Speaker 1: start of the parliamentary year. It might be Lee's last gasp.

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Speaker 1: She's got two right wing rivals coming for her job,

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Speaker 1: and the only thing holding them back is the fact

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Speaker 1: they can't agree on who's the best candidate this talk,

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Speaker 1: Lee's support is firming in the rest of the party

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Speaker 1: and even a suggestion the best choice might be a

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Speaker 1: more centrist candidate like Treasury spokesman Ted O'Brien. The Opposition

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Speaker 1: leader could be forgiven for dropping the old f form

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Speaker 1: in such a stressful time, but the rest of us

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Speaker 1: should watch our mouths. That's the obvious conclusion from a

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Speaker 1: case now playing out in the Federal Court where a

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Speaker 1: banker is fighting the bosses who sacked him for swearing. Today,

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Speaker 1: what are we allowed to say at work these days?

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Speaker 1: If we show up to work at all. Normally I say,

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Speaker 1: don't swear after this, but today we can.

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Speaker 2: Today we can.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, indeed, before we begin, there's a little bit of

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Speaker 1: swearing in this episode.

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Speaker 2: Gentlemen, you schnooks will now be targeting the wealthiest one

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Speaker 2: percent of Americans.

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Speaker 1: Talking about whales. Here we'by fucking Dix. Max Hison is

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Speaker 1: the Australian's banking reporter, and Max, you're reporting today on

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Speaker 1: an issue that's very close to my heart. Whether or

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Speaker 1: not we're allowed to swear at work. Now, you're a

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Speaker 1: Scotsman working in Australia. I don't think I've heard you

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Speaker 1: swearing in the office, but I'm pretty sure you'd be

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Speaker 1: capable of letting out a good stream of swear words.

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Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, but it's all just under the breath.

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Speaker 1: Tell me what did someone allegedly say that got them

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Speaker 1: in trouble at CBA.

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Speaker 2: So there was a chap called Bradley Duff who was

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Speaker 2: a property finance director within CBA's major client group, and

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Speaker 2: he's been sacked and he's suing the bank as a result.

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Speaker 2: He was sacked for allegedly standing over in inverted commas

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Speaker 2: a junior colleague and saying in a raised voice, do

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Speaker 2: you want to get the deal done or not? And

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Speaker 2: if you can't get it done, let me know. In

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Speaker 2: addition to that, he's alleged to have touched the same

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Speaker 2: colleague on the shoulder at another meeting and said, you

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Speaker 2: can do it with friendly encouragement. We are led to

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Speaker 2: believe while they couldn't determine whether there had been contact made,

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Speaker 2: mister Duff admitted saying at another meeting or to someone else,

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Speaker 2: calmed the fuck down. At one stage, CBA, while it

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Speaker 2: was getting an external firm to investigate, put him on leave.

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Speaker 2: The external firm and we don't know who they are

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Speaker 2: the un aimed in the court documents, but they upheld

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Speaker 2: the misconduct findings, and yes, mister Dove was sacked. Now

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Speaker 2: he's suing the bank. Mister Duff claims that none of

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Speaker 2: his behavior warranted misconduct, none of it was bullying, none

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Speaker 2: of it amounted to something that he should have been

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Speaker 2: sacked for. On the swearing front, and this is where

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Speaker 2: it gets interesting for bank watchers such as myself, he

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Speaker 2: said that it was commonplace from the most senior management

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Speaker 2: down at CBA to swear and to use swear words.

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Speaker 2: CBA of course denies this, but it's certainly quite an

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Speaker 2: interesting insight into the workplace.

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Speaker 1: I had people to say this swear while offering me

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Speaker 1: directions somewhere.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, take it back and right.

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Speaker 1: I think Australia has gotta be the only place where

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Speaker 1: the C word is considered a friendly greeting.

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Speaker 2: Are you going ag?

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Speaker 1: I would have thought it was obvious that everyone in

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Speaker 1: Australian workplaces swear. I don't know if that's just that

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Speaker 1: I've been hardened from years in newsrooms. But there is

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Speaker 1: change happening, isn't there. I mean, even in newsrooms which

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Speaker 1: were famously very sweary environments when you and I both

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Speaker 1: started our careers, you don't hear nearly so many fbombs

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Speaker 1: now as you might have in the past.

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Speaker 2: Oh not at all. I mean when I started back

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Speaker 2: in Fleet Street and the UK, you know, I heard

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Speaker 2: stories of metal bends being thrown at reporters who feeled

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Speaker 2: to get stories. But you know, I didn't witness any

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Speaker 2: of that myself. But it's definitely less a feature of

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Speaker 2: the newsroom than it once was.

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Speaker 1: There's also a difference between swearing in anger and swearing

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Speaker 1: for emphasis, or swearing for humor or swearing for stress relief,

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Speaker 1: isn't there? I mean, it doesn't seem to me as

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Speaker 1: though calm the fuck down, which is what this person

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Speaker 1: allegedly said, is necessarily problematic. This is also so not

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Speaker 1: just retail banking. This is high level, high stress deal making,

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Speaker 1: probably one of the most high stress occupations. You can

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Speaker 1: have huge amounts of money riding on the deals that

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Speaker 1: these people are doing. It was a favorite. Can you

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Speaker 1: tell me the yield you get out of that account

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Speaker 1: versus the hours you put in? Because this isn't a

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Speaker 1: fucking social club. I want to see it in dollars.

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Speaker 1: It's fucking pathetic. Otherwise, if there's no swearing allowed anymore,

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Speaker 1: Hollywood movies are going to have to be very different

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Speaker 1: the ones about finance, don't.

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Speaker 2: The Oh indeed, I mean it kind of beggars belief

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Speaker 2: that swearing wouldn't exist. He says in his statement of

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Speaker 2: claim that he was under huge amounts of pressure and

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Speaker 2: to court him had reached breaking point, and complaints about

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Speaker 2: this to his bosses fell on deaf ears. Traders I

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Speaker 2: speak to. My job isn't what it quite once was.

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Speaker 2: The high octane, incredibly masculine environments. They are dominated by

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Speaker 2: man the trading floors. But I think you'd be a

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Speaker 2: pretty safe bet to say there's still a lot swearing

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Speaker 2: that goes on on those floors.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so maybe if your employer wants to get rid

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Speaker 1: of you, swearing might be something that you don't want

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Speaker 1: to have on your record just in case.

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Speaker 2: Yeah absolutely. I mean I reported on a case last

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Speaker 2: year which is actually out for judgment. A former A

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Speaker 2: and Z trader. He is suing the bank for unfair dismissal,

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Speaker 2: claiming that he was a whistleblower and was actually exposing

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Speaker 2: wrongdoing on the trading floor, whereas A and Z in

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Speaker 2: this case, they claim they sacked him for fouel messages

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Speaker 2: he shared with other traders. Those messages were read out

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Speaker 2: in core and all their excruciatingly offensive detail. But it

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Speaker 2: just shows you know, this stuff is quite commonplace and

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Speaker 2: you can be caught out of the sodas.

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Speaker 1: Are Australian banks is some of the economy's biggest employee.

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Speaker 1: Is the huge institution. Still, even though various CEOs are

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Speaker 1: trying to change that reality, working from home is an

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Speaker 1: issue where the banks are having to work out what

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Speaker 1: the new rules are these days. We've seen a decision

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Speaker 1: in recent days where a man who was employed under

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Speaker 1: a contract that said that he could work from home

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Speaker 1: before COVID has now had a finding that no longer applies.

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Speaker 1: The employer was within its rights to determine that that

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Speaker 1: wasn't the case, But it went the other way for

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Speaker 1: another bank, didn't it? Late last year? What was that case?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, indeed, this was in October and it was west Pac.

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Speaker 2: There was a woman, a mother of twins called Carlene Chandler.

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Speaker 2: She had worked in west PAC's mortgage team for I

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Speaker 2: think over twenty years and had kind of happily been

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Speaker 2: working from home to look after two girls who were

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Speaker 2: I think primary school age. At the start of last year,

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Speaker 2: one of her bosses requested that she come into the

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Speaker 2: office more often. I think it was a minimum of

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Speaker 2: maybe three days a week. She challenged this and suggested

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Speaker 2: an alternative, which was to work I think a couple

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Speaker 2: of days at a bank branch closer to her home.

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Speaker 2: The bank refused. She took them to the Fair Work

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Speaker 2: Commission and yes, she won, which was seen at the

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Speaker 2: time as quite a momentous decision. The bank defended its

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Speaker 2: position but ultimately decided not to appeal the case. Anthony Miller,

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Speaker 2: the Westpac CEO, was concerned for the employee because there

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Speaker 2: was a huge amount of press attention around her because

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Speaker 2: it was seen as this litmus test I guess for

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Speaker 2: getting people back to work post pandemic. But he kind

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Speaker 2: of said that he thought the bank had it right

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Speaker 2: and that you know, a policy of three days a

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Speaker 2: week in the office got the balance right between flexible

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Speaker 2: working and the benefits that he said that you see

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Speaker 2: from working together in an office.

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Speaker 1: Coming up, why bosses and workers are increasingly threshing it

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Speaker 1: out in courtrooms. We're at a real inflection point, aren't we,

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Speaker 1: as the economy recovers from COVID and now into a

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Speaker 1: new phase of high inflation, high cost of living, high

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Speaker 1: travel costs in particular, which means people don't want to

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Speaker 1: make the huge commute into the office. What's your sense

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Speaker 1: when these matters reach court of how tense things are

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Speaker 1: between employers and employees.

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Speaker 2: I think they're very tense. A lot of employees across

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Speaker 2: the country see these gains as they would see it

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Speaker 2: from flexible work that was brought on by the pandemic,

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Speaker 2: as quite hard fought rights, and to have them taken

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Speaker 2: away would really alter their life, especially people who have

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Speaker 2: young children or they've got caring responsibilities. The ability to

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Speaker 2: work from home, even fifty percent of the week makes

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Speaker 2: a huge difference to their lives. It's hard to say

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Speaker 2: a lot of people in corporate Australia have gone back

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Speaker 2: full time and that's often set from the top. But

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Speaker 2: if I was going to give my opinion, I think

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Speaker 2: flexible work is probably here to stay.

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Speaker 1: No one can here swear in you're in kitchen. The

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Speaker 1: problem is you end up like me, eating so much

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Speaker 1: peanut butter off the spoon that you have to come

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Speaker 1: back to work.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. It's a nutrition. The fridge is as is always tempting.

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Speaker 1: Max Aitchison, thank you very much.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Max Aitchison is The Australian's banking reporter. You can check

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Speaker 1: out all his stories right now at The Australian dot

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Speaker 1: com dot au