WEBVTT - From High Stakes to Rock Bottom with Ed Toller 0:00:05.881 --> 0:00:07.801 Appoche production. 0:00:14.161 --> 0:00:16.481 Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand, I'm your host 0:00:16.601 --> 0:00:20.481 Adam Shand. Australia is the gambling capital of the world 0:00:20.561 --> 0:00:23.521 by a huge margin. Daylight is second. 0:00:24.201 --> 0:00:27.321 Australians lose more money gambling than anyone. 0:00:27.001 --> 0:00:27.761 Else on Earth. 0:00:28.481 --> 0:00:31.761 Our turnover is greater than the GDP of all but 0:00:31.921 --> 0:00:35.681 fifty countries of the world, and the losses are just 0:00:35.841 --> 0:00:36.641 as staggering. 0:00:37.161 --> 0:00:39.361 In the twenty twenty two to twenty twenty three period, 0:00:39.641 --> 0:00:43.881 Australian has lost approximately thirty two billion dollars to gambling and. 0:00:43.801 --> 0:00:47.200 We have an epidemic of gambling related crime. Some of 0:00:47.241 --> 0:00:51.080 the crimes are ingenious, but most have a compulsive, pathological 0:00:51.161 --> 0:00:53.721 nature to them. Whenever I see a story where someone 0:00:53.721 --> 0:00:57.641 has stolen from their employers, family, or friends, I look 0:00:57.761 --> 0:01:02.041 for the gambling link. Gambling has always driven crime. Many 0:01:02.081 --> 0:01:06.241 of our most notorious crooks were also huge punters. But 0:01:06.321 --> 0:01:09.041 the people I'm seeing go through the courts today are 0:01:09.121 --> 0:01:14.521 not career criminals, but people feeding an addiction. Ed Toller 0:01:14.961 --> 0:01:18.121 stole one point seven million from people who believe he 0:01:18.161 --> 0:01:21.441 was a financial advisor who could invest their money wisely. 0:01:21.761 --> 0:01:24.880 In total, he swindled one million seven hundred and forty 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:28.601 four thousand, two hundred and twenty dollars from fourteen elderly 0:01:28.721 --> 0:01:33.481 and unsophisticated investors, but instead he spent it on backing 0:01:33.521 --> 0:01:37.441 horses and living a fantasy lifestyle. He promised to invest 0:01:37.441 --> 0:01:40.881 the money instead, He's accused of gambling it away on 0:01:41.041 --> 0:01:45.001 horses and sports, but reality eventually came calling, and in 0:01:45.041 --> 0:01:48.240 twenty eighteen, Ed was sentenced to eight years in jail, 0:01:48.601 --> 0:01:53.201 and he served five. He's free again, rebuilding his life, 0:01:53.361 --> 0:01:55.401 and he now shares the story of his fall from 0:01:55.441 --> 0:01:58.441 grace and what it offers others in the grip of 0:01:58.481 --> 0:02:01.441 a gambling addiction. And I'm really pleased to welcome Ed 0:02:01.481 --> 0:02:02.601 to the Real Crime Studio. 0:02:02.601 --> 0:02:05.601 Okay, Ed, oh good, I Adam, thanks thanks for having me. 0:02:06.361 --> 0:02:08.561 How do you reflect on what happened to you and 0:02:08.601 --> 0:02:09.801 your journey to this moment? 0:02:11.041 --> 0:02:13.121 Yeah, I mean you. 0:02:13.081 --> 0:02:15.401 Touched on a couple of things during that intro, and 0:02:15.481 --> 0:02:18.400 gambling and the money that I took and the eventual 0:02:18.441 --> 0:02:21.361 consequence of it. I guess you know, they all happened 0:02:21.361 --> 0:02:25.721 so far apart, but ultimately the downfall, if you like, 0:02:25.881 --> 0:02:29.841 or the end result was I guess an inevitability. And 0:02:29.921 --> 0:02:32.041 you know, I probably could have seen it coming twenty 0:02:32.161 --> 0:02:34.121 years ago, but chose to. 0:02:34.800 --> 0:02:36.081 I guess it's not that I. 0:02:36.121 --> 0:02:39.561 Chose to ignore it, but I certainly chose to avoid 0:02:40.081 --> 0:02:43.361 thinking about it because I could see that gambling was 0:02:43.401 --> 0:02:45.681 a real problem for me, but I wasn't willing to 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:47.481 admit that early on in the piece. 0:02:48.161 --> 0:02:50.280 You were born in England, and I think you all 0:02:50.321 --> 0:02:53.881 gambling began there, in horse racing and so forth. 0:02:54.881 --> 0:02:56.961 Yeah, I mean, I've been involved and tied in with 0:02:57.041 --> 0:03:00.001 horse racing for a big part of my life through 0:03:00.001 --> 0:03:02.321 one way or another. You know, I had some family 0:03:02.401 --> 0:03:05.121 ties within the industry. I loved it. 0:03:05.561 --> 0:03:08.281 I still do. I'm enamored with the sport. I think 0:03:08.321 --> 0:03:11.201 it's something that, unfortunately. 0:03:10.601 --> 0:03:12.440 You either really like it and take a really good 0:03:12.441 --> 0:03:15.001 interest in it or it's just never for you. And 0:03:15.041 --> 0:03:17.201 I think unfortunately I was one of those people where 0:03:17.641 --> 0:03:21.001 it got me early on. And it wasn't initially about 0:03:21.001 --> 0:03:23.001 the gambling. It was more about the theater of the 0:03:23.041 --> 0:03:27.521 sport and what it offered. But as my opportunities within 0:03:27.561 --> 0:03:30.761 the industry sort of dimmed, I found that gambling was 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:33.921 one that was always there and I could always utilize 0:03:33.921 --> 0:03:36.881 and I could always rely on and I guess I 0:03:37.001 --> 0:03:39.121 was under the impression that I could make a living 0:03:39.121 --> 0:03:42.881 out of gambling on horse racing and other sports, and 0:03:43.401 --> 0:03:44.281 how wrong I could be. 0:03:45.521 --> 0:03:47.481 Well, what was the path then, because I believe you're 0:03:47.481 --> 0:03:49.801 involved in racing back in England and I think you 0:03:49.801 --> 0:03:51.681 were warned off tracks for a couple of years there. 0:03:51.721 --> 0:03:55.561 There was a story about tips and jockeys and so forth, 0:03:55.601 --> 0:03:57.881 and you were caught up in that, and I guess 0:03:57.921 --> 0:04:01.841 your livelihood was curtailed then. I think you called it 0:04:01.881 --> 0:04:05.600 a toxic lifestyle you're involved with. You come to Australia, 0:04:05.801 --> 0:04:06.561 What was your plan? 0:04:07.641 --> 0:04:11.161 Yeah, so look, I'll touch on that briefly. 0:04:11.201 --> 0:04:13.721 Look, I think when I got warned off from tracks 0:04:13.721 --> 0:04:16.241 in the UK for twelve months, that was a real 0:04:16.241 --> 0:04:17.161 shock to the system. 0:04:17.401 --> 0:04:18.801 You know, I let a lot of people down. 0:04:19.281 --> 0:04:24.001 And I never saw myself in that position before that happened, 0:04:24.001 --> 0:04:26.681 and I never believed that that would happen. But yeah, 0:04:26.761 --> 0:04:29.561 ultimately I was very naive in the situation to think 0:04:29.601 --> 0:04:32.121 that I was going to exploit a. 0:04:32.041 --> 0:04:35.081 Loophole that wasn't a loophole. Australia. 0:04:35.161 --> 0:04:37.201 The move, it was all about a change of scenery, 0:04:37.481 --> 0:04:41.200 a fresh start, you know, a culture change. And you know, 0:04:41.281 --> 0:04:43.681 little did I know that landing here, I was landing 0:04:43.721 --> 0:04:46.241 in the gambling capital of the world, which. 0:04:46.081 --> 0:04:47.281 You know it certainly isn't. 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:49.241 After a week, I went into a pub and it 0:04:49.281 --> 0:04:52.201 had a bookies in the corner, and I thought, all 0:04:52.241 --> 0:04:54.561 my dreams have come true, so to speak. It's like, 0:04:54.641 --> 0:04:58.481 it's that easy. And it was alarming, but not in 0:04:58.521 --> 0:05:02.041 a bad way. Initially, for someone that loves gambling and 0:05:02.081 --> 0:05:05.880 someone that loves that the combined lifestyle, the drinking and 0:05:05.921 --> 0:05:07.841 the gambling and all of that other stuff that goes 0:05:07.841 --> 0:05:10.721 with it, I thought it was great. You know, I thought, 0:05:10.721 --> 0:05:13.961 this is just ideal. I can do it guilt free, 0:05:14.041 --> 0:05:17.161 and you know, nothing will ever happen. But it all 0:05:17.241 --> 0:05:18.321 unfolded pretty quickly. 0:05:18.801 --> 0:05:21.361 Because you were a student of the form you would 0:05:21.361 --> 0:05:24.441 have backed yourself to be able to make good decisions 0:05:25.041 --> 0:05:27.921 and to make a living, because that's what you've done previously. 0:05:28.641 --> 0:05:30.401 When did it all start to go wrong? 0:05:31.721 --> 0:05:34.281 I mean, you know, I could always pick a winner, 0:05:34.801 --> 0:05:38.601 always never had a problem studying the formula of something 0:05:38.641 --> 0:05:39.921 I was obviously quite good at. 0:05:40.401 --> 0:05:42.521 I could find winners. You know, I had. 0:05:42.401 --> 0:05:45.641 Access to information that others might not, so I had 0:05:45.721 --> 0:05:48.960 an edge, But the problem was I couldn't stop because 0:05:49.001 --> 0:05:52.561 I did it compulsively. As any other gambling addict or 0:05:52.641 --> 0:05:56.080 person who doesn't gamble will understand, if you can't stop 0:05:56.121 --> 0:05:58.281 doing something, eventually it's not going to work for you. 0:05:58.361 --> 0:06:01.081 And I think it began to unfold in two thousand 0:06:01.081 --> 0:06:06.121 and fourteen and I had a business. I had a 0:06:06.121 --> 0:06:08.841 couple of clients that I could see avenues where I 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:11.720 could utilize their funds to try and make more money 0:06:11.721 --> 0:06:15.320 for myself. So I started doing that, but I wasn't 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:17.521 doing it consciously, and I knew what I was doing, 0:06:17.561 --> 0:06:23.281 and I was in a bad place mentally and physically. 0:06:23.081 --> 0:06:25.001 And I wasn't making right decisions. 0:06:25.081 --> 0:06:27.960 And to think that I landed here in twenty twelve, 0:06:28.001 --> 0:06:31.760 and by twenty seventeen, I was in jail for five years. 0:06:32.721 --> 0:06:35.641 It's such a small period of time for someone's life 0:06:35.641 --> 0:06:39.281 to unravel the way it did, but ultimately it probably 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:43.041 didn't start unraveling until twenty fourteen, and between that time 0:06:43.081 --> 0:06:45.841 and the time that I got arrested, it's a three 0:06:45.921 --> 0:06:49.640 year gap where everything just went boom. 0:06:49.921 --> 0:06:53.801 Because people rarely set out with the intention to steal 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:57.400 to gamble, but it's sometimes let's use the money to 0:06:57.521 --> 0:07:01.041 chase my losses and I'll get out ahead of back 0:07:01.081 --> 0:07:04.121 in the black, as it were. But often it doesn't 0:07:04.161 --> 0:07:06.001 go that way. I think it's very common story. 0:07:06.601 --> 0:07:10.681 Yeah, Like I never ever intended to take one dollar 0:07:10.721 --> 0:07:13.801 of any of the client's money, the truth be known. 0:07:14.321 --> 0:07:18.881 What happened was I was running an arbitrage scheme that 0:07:19.481 --> 0:07:22.881 went barely up because of my gambling habit, and I 0:07:22.921 --> 0:07:26.761 decided to leave a bit live rather than trade out 0:07:26.761 --> 0:07:28.801 of it. And it was for a couple of hundred 0:07:28.801 --> 0:07:33.161 thousand dollars and I didn't have the necessary funds to 0:07:33.241 --> 0:07:36.521 replace it, so I had to make a call, and 0:07:36.761 --> 0:07:39.561 I made a call to another client and I fulfilled 0:07:39.561 --> 0:07:42.641 the investment, and then I used that money to gamble 0:07:42.681 --> 0:07:45.481 to chase the other money back. And it was a 0:07:45.481 --> 0:07:47.401 domino effect that kept going. 0:07:47.481 --> 0:07:50.481 Until it stopped, you know, until it became too much, 0:07:50.561 --> 0:07:53.121 until people realized that they probably. 0:07:52.841 --> 0:07:54.201 Weren't going to see their money again. 0:07:54.241 --> 0:07:57.441 And unfortunately I wasn't in a position to return that 0:07:57.561 --> 0:07:59.641 money because I gambled it. 0:08:00.921 --> 0:08:03.721 Because I think a lot of people see this situation 0:08:04.041 --> 0:08:07.641 as like a moral failing, but I think it's a pathological, 0:08:07.681 --> 0:08:11.481 compulsive situation. And I think when you see what happens 0:08:11.521 --> 0:08:13.721 to people in their day to day as they're in 0:08:13.761 --> 0:08:18.521 the grip of this sort of gambling bag, it is horrific. 0:08:18.841 --> 0:08:21.161 Tell us what an average day was like for you 0:08:21.241 --> 0:08:22.601 as you're chasing your losses. 0:08:22.761 --> 0:08:23.401 What would you do? 0:08:24.801 --> 0:08:27.881 Yeah, I think for me, when I was gambling at 0:08:27.921 --> 0:08:30.001 that sort of level, you know, I might be having 0:08:30.041 --> 0:08:31.481 two or three hundred bets a day. 0:08:32.321 --> 0:08:35.121 You know what I find probably. 0:08:34.761 --> 0:08:37.481 More soul destroying about it is that, you know I 0:08:37.521 --> 0:08:40.161 wouldn't start off. I would start off under the notion 0:08:40.281 --> 0:08:42.081 that I'm just going to have a couple of bets today. 0:08:42.561 --> 0:08:44.201 You know, I used to say to myself that I 0:08:44.201 --> 0:08:46.881 didn't like to win early because if I won early, 0:08:46.881 --> 0:08:47.681 I wouldn't stop. 0:08:48.121 --> 0:08:49.921 I would run out of money by the end of 0:08:49.921 --> 0:08:50.201 the day. 0:08:50.241 --> 0:08:53.321 Because I think I can win time after time, So 0:08:53.401 --> 0:08:56.281 if I win too early, it's no good. But you know, 0:08:56.361 --> 0:08:58.881 my typical day would be that I'd get up, I'd 0:08:58.881 --> 0:09:03.881 study the form, I'd start betting at lunchtime, and you know, 0:09:03.961 --> 0:09:07.001 I might still be betting on greyhound's highness and horses 0:09:07.081 --> 0:09:08.121 until the middle of the night. 0:09:08.841 --> 0:09:11.601 You know, of all the betting accounts I ever had. 0:09:12.201 --> 0:09:15.281 There was only one time from one company did an 0:09:15.361 --> 0:09:18.841 individual who worked for them say, are you okay? Like 0:09:19.321 --> 0:09:22.161 you know, you know, you've had like three hundred bets 0:09:22.161 --> 0:09:24.641 today or in the last week, You've had this money 0:09:24.721 --> 0:09:28.441 number of bets. And I genuinely respect that guy even 0:09:28.481 --> 0:09:32.001 looking back, because he wasn't the way that their company 0:09:32.081 --> 0:09:35.121 was set up. They didn't make direct money out of 0:09:35.161 --> 0:09:38.441 me on how much I punted, It didn't matter to them. 0:09:38.481 --> 0:09:41.201 It was more a case of I was just a 0:09:41.281 --> 0:09:45.921 valuable client to them for many different reasons. But he 0:09:46.041 --> 0:09:49.881 showed true compassion on a couple of occasions. So I 0:09:49.921 --> 0:09:51.721 don't want to tie them all with the same brush. 0:09:51.761 --> 0:09:54.561 But you know, that was one account out of twenty, 0:09:55.321 --> 0:09:57.321 and I lost a lot of money through a lot 0:09:57.401 --> 0:10:00.161 of different accounts. You know, obviously the money that we're 0:10:00.201 --> 0:10:03.881 talking is one point seven million that was stolen, but 0:10:03.961 --> 0:10:06.601 the true reality of that that was probably turnover of 0:10:06.921 --> 0:10:10.801 you know, anywhere between three and four So you know, 0:10:10.881 --> 0:10:13.361 there's a lot of money that's gone over time there. 0:10:14.121 --> 0:10:15.881 Because you did know the forms, there must have been 0:10:15.921 --> 0:10:18.761 good days where you're actually winning. Were there moments where 0:10:18.761 --> 0:10:20.281 you think, well, if I get far enough ahead I 0:10:20.321 --> 0:10:20.921 can stop this. 0:10:21.961 --> 0:10:23.041 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 0:10:23.041 --> 0:10:25.361 I mean there was times where I won a lot 0:10:25.361 --> 0:10:27.801 of money, and you know, I would use some of 0:10:27.841 --> 0:10:31.481 it to function life, like you know, paying my rent. 0:10:31.641 --> 0:10:33.561 Because people think, you know, a lot of what was 0:10:34.041 --> 0:10:36.521 written in the press is ah, he lived this big, 0:10:36.601 --> 0:10:40.041 lavish lifestyle, he lived in this place, but the true 0:10:40.081 --> 0:10:42.361 reality is of it. I was with Telstra and I 0:10:42.401 --> 0:10:44.921 could get the records. My phone got cut off every 0:10:44.921 --> 0:10:47.241 second month because I wasn't paying one hundred and eighty. 0:10:47.041 --> 0:10:48.601 Dollars a month telephone bill. 0:10:49.521 --> 0:10:51.801 So you know, as much as it's looked upon that 0:10:51.881 --> 0:10:54.401 I was living lavishly, I was living day to day 0:10:54.721 --> 0:10:57.481 hand to mouth because all the money that I had 0:10:57.641 --> 0:11:01.721 was going towards gambling on the whole. And you know, 0:11:01.761 --> 0:11:04.921 there would be times I'd always as a compulsive gambler, 0:11:05.041 --> 0:11:07.121 I'm always under the impression that I can dig myself 0:11:07.121 --> 0:11:10.521 out of any hole, because along with being a compulsive gambler, 0:11:10.521 --> 0:11:13.401 I was a compulsive liar. And I learned how to 0:11:13.521 --> 0:11:17.601 lie to protect myself and to enable myself to be 0:11:17.601 --> 0:11:18.721 able to do these things. 0:11:19.361 --> 0:11:21.241 And you know, I look back at that now and 0:11:21.521 --> 0:11:22.601 I'm ashamed. 0:11:22.201 --> 0:11:25.641 Of some of the behavior that I portrayed, but it 0:11:25.681 --> 0:11:27.081 wasn't a true reflection of me. 0:11:27.201 --> 0:11:27.881 And I know that. 0:11:28.041 --> 0:11:30.921 And there's going to be people that will say that's bollocks, 0:11:31.161 --> 0:11:34.361 and there'll be people that will say good on for 0:11:34.401 --> 0:11:37.161 turning it around. But the reality is, I know in 0:11:37.241 --> 0:11:40.401 myself that that wasn't a true reflection my personality and 0:11:40.441 --> 0:11:45.081 my character. But when this thing gets you, it doesn't 0:11:45.081 --> 0:11:47.921 stop until it takes everything from you. And they talk 0:11:47.961 --> 0:11:53.121 about rock bottoms, and everyone's got a different one, and yeah, 0:11:53.161 --> 0:11:54.881 it can come in any shape. 0:11:54.601 --> 0:11:58.641 Or size, because what you say is correct, because every 0:11:58.681 --> 0:12:02.001 gambler that I've spoken to, or compulsive behaviors, even drugs 0:12:02.041 --> 0:12:05.641 and so forth, there's a gap between a person's values 0:12:06.561 --> 0:12:09.321 and where they found themselves, and they live in this 0:12:09.401 --> 0:12:12.601 limbo in between, which was full of anxiety, shame, and guilt, 0:12:13.201 --> 0:12:18.001 which often prevents them from stopping, and they lose themselves 0:12:18.041 --> 0:12:20.361 in that. You talk about a rock bottom, What was 0:12:20.401 --> 0:12:23.841 your personal rock bottom? 0:12:23.921 --> 0:12:26.481 It's funny because I thought I had plenty before jail, 0:12:27.001 --> 0:12:29.561 and then I went there, and I think ultimately that 0:12:29.721 --> 0:12:33.041 was definitely. Like I remember sitting in the court when 0:12:33.041 --> 0:12:36.601 I got sentenced, and I was so angry that I'd 0:12:36.601 --> 0:12:39.801 been sentenced for so long. I got such a high, 0:12:39.841 --> 0:12:43.721 big sentence. I was fuming, and I remember leaning over 0:12:43.761 --> 0:12:46.521 to my solicter saying to him, you got to lodge 0:12:46.521 --> 0:12:49.881 an appeal, like that's ridiculous. But I remember going back 0:12:49.921 --> 0:12:52.721 because I've already had ten eleven months in jail by 0:12:52.761 --> 0:12:55.081 this time. When I got sentenced, I didn't get any bail. 0:12:55.681 --> 0:12:57.761 I remember going back to the jail that night and 0:12:57.801 --> 0:13:00.001 just sitting there and reflecting on it and just thinking, 0:13:00.041 --> 0:13:01.641 you know what, this is probably a good thing. 0:13:01.921 --> 0:13:04.521 Ultimately, this is probably what I need. 0:13:05.801 --> 0:13:07.241 Because the judge didn't spare you. 0:13:07.281 --> 0:13:09.721 He gave you a good bollocking, a good dressing down 0:13:09.721 --> 0:13:11.921 in his remarks, and he talked about the people that 0:13:11.961 --> 0:13:15.281 you had stolen from their elderly people, in some cases retirees, 0:13:15.841 --> 0:13:19.041 putting their life savings into things, and there was seemed 0:13:19.041 --> 0:13:22.561 to be a very high moral culpability that he wanted 0:13:22.561 --> 0:13:23.681 to communicate to you. 0:13:23.961 --> 0:13:25.201 Did you feel that way. 0:13:26.081 --> 0:13:30.201 Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think, and look, ultimately, with the 0:13:30.201 --> 0:13:32.521 benefit of hindsight, now I think it was probably the 0:13:32.601 --> 0:13:35.321 right sentence, and I think that it was a just 0:13:35.801 --> 0:13:38.161 outcome for the crime that I committed. 0:13:38.641 --> 0:13:40.241 You know, I don't hide behind the fact that I 0:13:40.281 --> 0:13:40.761 was a gambler. 0:13:40.881 --> 0:13:43.521 But what I did was the wrong thing, and it's 0:13:43.601 --> 0:13:47.281 by law, it's a punishable offense by a criminal court, 0:13:47.401 --> 0:13:50.561 and I deserved what I got in my opinion. You know, 0:13:50.961 --> 0:13:54.521 I speak to people all the time and through gambling 0:13:55.081 --> 0:13:57.641 arenas or whatever it is, and they all say, oh, 0:13:57.721 --> 0:13:58.121 you know, that. 0:13:58.161 --> 0:13:59.321 Sentence was ridiculous. 0:13:59.321 --> 0:14:04.001 But ultimately, you know, I turned people's lives upside down 0:14:04.001 --> 0:14:04.681 with what I did. 0:14:05.281 --> 0:14:06.961 You know, that's something that I've got to live with, 0:14:07.961 --> 0:14:09.241 but they've also got to live with it. 0:14:09.281 --> 0:14:13.761 So you know, there is a moral accountability that's attached 0:14:13.761 --> 0:14:15.881 to that, and you know, I need to be held 0:14:15.881 --> 0:14:18.001 accountable for what I did, and I feel. 0:14:17.721 --> 0:14:18.241 Like I was. 0:14:18.801 --> 0:14:20.801 You know. At the same time, the people who are 0:14:20.801 --> 0:14:23.521 probably along with you for the ride, enjoying that high 0:14:23.601 --> 0:14:28.081 lifestyle that you're enjoying, they all disappear when you're in 0:14:28.081 --> 0:14:30.881 the jail cell on your own and you realize you're 0:14:30.921 --> 0:14:34.921 sort of friendless, and that must be a very difficult 0:14:34.961 --> 0:14:39.161 moment personally, and you're taking stock of your own personality 0:14:39.201 --> 0:14:43.041 and your own choices. That's a moment most people don't face. 0:14:43.121 --> 0:14:43.681 What's that like? 0:14:44.801 --> 0:14:48.641 It's funny, you know, because a lot of people that were. 0:14:48.481 --> 0:14:51.561 Around when I was gambling, I honestly would have thought 0:14:51.561 --> 0:14:54.441 that they would have been quite close friends. And I 0:14:54.481 --> 0:14:56.921 wasn't under the impression that anything I could really do 0:14:57.481 --> 0:15:00.041 would ever deter them from having a friendship with me. 0:15:00.801 --> 0:15:03.641 But I was very wrong about that, and probably eighty 0:15:03.681 --> 0:15:05.761 percent of the people that I was with prior to 0:15:05.841 --> 0:15:09.361 going to jail I no longer am. And there was 0:15:09.401 --> 0:15:12.321 definitely a sense of anger at first. But you know, 0:15:12.481 --> 0:15:14.521 I've had a lot of time to reflect on that stuff, 0:15:14.601 --> 0:15:18.481 obviously from where I was, and I think that to me, 0:15:18.681 --> 0:15:22.001 that's a bonus now to live life without those people 0:15:22.601 --> 0:15:25.401 and to not have them within my circle, if you like, 0:15:25.521 --> 0:15:29.441 because I think certainly it's not that i'd believe that 0:15:29.441 --> 0:15:33.281 they're guilty by association, but certainly they're around when there 0:15:33.321 --> 0:15:35.921 was all the trimmings of what comes with being a 0:15:35.961 --> 0:15:39.081 gambler who wants to spend his money on all sorts 0:15:39.121 --> 0:15:41.481 of different things, you know, and there were people that 0:15:41.521 --> 0:15:45.361 would take advantage of that situation, and you know, they're 0:15:45.361 --> 0:15:48.881 no longer around. And to me, do I look back 0:15:48.921 --> 0:15:50.721 on that and think where are they now? 0:15:50.881 --> 0:15:51.041 No? 0:15:51.121 --> 0:15:54.881 Not really, because I think that they're probably doing it 0:15:54.881 --> 0:15:58.241 to someone else, or they're probably living a life that 0:15:59.281 --> 0:16:01.321 you know, maybe they regret some of it as well, 0:16:01.561 --> 0:16:02.881 i'd hope. 0:16:03.801 --> 0:16:07.241 Well, I'm sure in the Eastern Cumbers of Sydney where 0:16:07.241 --> 0:16:09.521 I also grew up as well, and I understand the 0:16:09.561 --> 0:16:12.281 tribe of people that attach themselves to you, and you 0:16:12.321 --> 0:16:14.241 can back it in that they would have attached themselves 0:16:14.281 --> 0:16:17.441 to somebody else the next hot thing, and it is 0:16:17.481 --> 0:16:22.801 a soulless experience and friendships are very tenuous. In jail, 0:16:23.321 --> 0:16:25.601 you met a different class of people. You went to 0:16:25.641 --> 0:16:29.721 a private school in England, well educated, you know, here 0:16:29.761 --> 0:16:31.801 you're meeting people with no chance in life who were 0:16:31.801 --> 0:16:34.241 in there and this is going to be their life career. Criminals, 0:16:34.281 --> 0:16:37.521 people have made some really dumb mistake. How did that 0:16:37.721 --> 0:16:40.641 impact you and give you, I guess a sense of 0:16:41.521 --> 0:16:42.841 what you'd squandered in a way. 0:16:43.921 --> 0:16:49.721 Yeah, I mean, jail here is really eye opening. Obviously 0:16:50.081 --> 0:16:51.601 you touched on the fact that I lived in the 0:16:51.601 --> 0:16:55.161 Eastern Suburbs. I lived in a community I guess, which 0:16:55.201 --> 0:17:00.281 is very sheltered and very privileged and very out of 0:17:00.321 --> 0:17:02.521 the I'd almost call. 0:17:02.401 --> 0:17:05.801 It far removed from reality in a hones Stone. 0:17:05.441 --> 0:17:07.681 And when I went in there, you know, I went 0:17:07.761 --> 0:17:10.641 to a number of different jails within New South Wales, 0:17:11.721 --> 0:17:14.521 but I met so many people that have literally had 0:17:14.721 --> 0:17:18.721 the opposite of my lifestyle, the polar opposite. They've had 0:17:18.721 --> 0:17:21.481 no chance since the day that they were born. They've 0:17:21.481 --> 0:17:26.400 had domestic violence, they've had drug use, they've had alcohol, gambling, 0:17:27.120 --> 0:17:31.041 and they've grown up knowing only one route really, if 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:33.360 you like, Whereas I didn't, I grew up knowing that 0:17:33.481 --> 0:17:35.721 crime was bad and that I shouldn't do it, and 0:17:36.441 --> 0:17:38.160 if I do it, you know, this is what the 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:42.721 punishment will be. And I feel like there's so much unknown, 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:45.561 you know, there's this like people are obsessed with crime 0:17:45.681 --> 0:17:49.480 shows and documentaries around crime and what it is and 0:17:49.521 --> 0:17:50.801 who commits it and. 0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:53.160 Murder shows and all this whatever else. 0:17:53.481 --> 0:17:56.801 But the reality is that the people who are committing 0:17:56.880 --> 0:17:59.801 day to day crimes, if you like, who just keep 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:01.240 returning in and out of. 0:18:01.241 --> 0:18:02.961 The system year in, year out. 0:18:03.120 --> 0:18:06.281 It's really sad stories that we don't hear about out 0:18:06.321 --> 0:18:09.481 here because there's no need for it, you know, there's 0:18:09.521 --> 0:18:11.281 no need for people to hear about it. But I 0:18:11.321 --> 0:18:13.521 think that some of the stuff, like, you know, I 0:18:13.761 --> 0:18:17.041 write letters for people who couldn't write or couldn't read, 0:18:17.801 --> 0:18:20.001 you know, wanted to translate a message across to a 0:18:20.120 --> 0:18:22.521 judge when they were going in for you know, some 0:18:22.681 --> 0:18:25.721 form of crime that they've committed. They'd want to write 0:18:25.761 --> 0:18:28.400 something to the judge, not letting him or her know 0:18:29.041 --> 0:18:32.321 why they should show leniency. And I think there was 0:18:33.321 --> 0:18:36.001 I guess I was just living in this bubble where 0:18:36.041 --> 0:18:40.001 I had no idea of what real society had or 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:43.441 was going on. And I think that you know, probably 0:18:43.481 --> 0:18:45.721 for me, that was a big wake up call. 0:18:46.360 --> 0:18:46.840 Well it was. 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:50.121 I guess it was a humbling moment where you could 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:52.240 look at your life to that point and what it 0:18:52.281 --> 0:18:54.721 could be from here on in. And I mean five 0:18:54.801 --> 0:18:57.801 years in jail is no joke, and it's about punishment, 0:18:58.001 --> 0:19:01.961 but it's also about rehabilitation and theory. And you're there 0:19:02.001 --> 0:19:04.680 a gambling addict. You can still gamble in jail if 0:19:04.681 --> 0:19:06.880 you want to. There's always ways to do that. But 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:11.401 was there any semblance of anything, a program, a person, 0:19:11.801 --> 0:19:14.680 a moment where you could confront your gambling and start 0:19:14.681 --> 0:19:17.201 to make a plan about what would happen after jail. 0:19:18.481 --> 0:19:20.120 I mean, they ran a couple of things when you 0:19:20.201 --> 0:19:23.761 go into jail, they screen you, so they ask you 0:19:23.801 --> 0:19:26.640 a load of questions and they say, are you addicted 0:19:26.681 --> 0:19:30.321 to anything or whatever? I think it's mainly like they 0:19:30.360 --> 0:19:32.721 ask you whether it's alcohol, drugs. You have to nominate 0:19:32.761 --> 0:19:35.281 gambling if that's something that you've got a problem with, 0:19:35.721 --> 0:19:38.921 and I did, but I think it took like two 0:19:38.961 --> 0:19:41.161 and a half years before I got into a program 0:19:41.681 --> 0:19:45.121 to address anything around addiction. And they do this thing 0:19:45.201 --> 0:19:49.160 called Equip's Addiction, which is run by a programs officer 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:50.480 in the jail. 0:19:50.801 --> 0:19:52.880 I mean it's better than nothing. 0:19:52.681 --> 0:19:55.041 But to me, it was verging on a waste of time, 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:57.961 you know, And a lot of people have to do it. 0:19:58.041 --> 0:20:00.160 They make people do it in order to get certain 0:20:00.201 --> 0:20:04.561