Speaker 1: Appoche production.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand, I'm your host
Speaker 2: Adam Shand. Australia is the gambling capital of the world
Speaker 2: by a huge margin. Daylight is second.
Speaker 3: Australians lose more money gambling than anyone.
Speaker 1: Else on Earth.
Speaker 2: Our turnover is greater than the GDP of all but
Speaker 2: fifty countries of the world, and the losses are just
Speaker 2: as staggering.
Speaker 1: In the twenty twenty two to twenty twenty three period,
Speaker 1: Australian has lost approximately thirty two billion dollars to gambling and.
Speaker 2: We have an epidemic of gambling related crime. Some of
Speaker 2: the crimes are ingenious, but most have a compulsive, pathological
Speaker 2: nature to them. Whenever I see a story where someone
Speaker 2: has stolen from their employers, family, or friends, I look
Speaker 2: for the gambling link. Gambling has always driven crime. Many
Speaker 2: of our most notorious crooks were also huge punters. But
Speaker 2: the people I'm seeing go through the courts today are
Speaker 2: not career criminals, but people feeding an addiction. Ed Toller
Speaker 2: stole one point seven million from people who believe he
Speaker 2: was a financial advisor who could invest their money wisely.
Speaker 2: In total, he swindled one million seven hundred and forty
Speaker 2: four thousand, two hundred and twenty dollars from fourteen elderly
Speaker 2: and unsophisticated investors, but instead he spent it on backing
Speaker 2: horses and living a fantasy lifestyle. He promised to invest
Speaker 2: the money instead, He's accused of gambling it away on
Speaker 2: horses and sports, but reality eventually came calling, and in
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, Ed was sentenced to eight years in jail,
Speaker 2: and he served five. He's free again, rebuilding his life,
Speaker 2: and he now shares the story of his fall from
Speaker 2: grace and what it offers others in the grip of
Speaker 2: a gambling addiction. And I'm really pleased to welcome Ed
Speaker 2: to the Real Crime Studio.
Speaker 1: Okay, Ed, oh good, I Adam, thanks thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: How do you reflect on what happened to you and
Speaker 2: your journey to this moment?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you.
Speaker 4: Touched on a couple of things during that intro, and
Speaker 4: gambling and the money that I took and the eventual
Speaker 4: consequence of it. I guess you know, they all happened
Speaker 4: so far apart, but ultimately the downfall, if you like,
Speaker 4: or the end result was I guess an inevitability. And
Speaker 4: you know, I probably could have seen it coming twenty
Speaker 4: years ago, but chose to.
Speaker 1: I guess it's not that I.
Speaker 4: Chose to ignore it, but I certainly chose to avoid
Speaker 4: thinking about it because I could see that gambling was
Speaker 4: a real problem for me, but I wasn't willing to
Speaker 4: admit that early on in the piece.
Speaker 2: You were born in England, and I think you all
Speaker 2: gambling began there, in horse racing and so forth.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I've been involved and tied in with
Speaker 4: horse racing for a big part of my life through
Speaker 4: one way or another. You know, I had some family
Speaker 4: ties within the industry. I loved it.
Speaker 1: I still do. I'm enamored with the sport. I think
Speaker 1: it's something that, unfortunately.
Speaker 4: You either really like it and take a really good
Speaker 4: interest in it or it's just never for you. And
Speaker 4: I think unfortunately I was one of those people where
Speaker 4: it got me early on. And it wasn't initially about
Speaker 4: the gambling. It was more about the theater of the
Speaker 4: sport and what it offered. But as my opportunities within
Speaker 4: the industry sort of dimmed, I found that gambling was
Speaker 4: one that was always there and I could always utilize
Speaker 4: and I could always rely on and I guess I
Speaker 4: was under the impression that I could make a living
Speaker 4: out of gambling on horse racing and other sports, and
Speaker 4: how wrong I could be.
Speaker 2: Well, what was the path then, because I believe you're
Speaker 2: involved in racing back in England and I think you
Speaker 2: were warned off tracks for a couple of years there.
Speaker 2: There was a story about tips and jockeys and so forth,
Speaker 2: and you were caught up in that, and I guess
Speaker 2: your livelihood was curtailed then. I think you called it
Speaker 2: a toxic lifestyle you're involved with. You come to Australia,
Speaker 2: What was your plan?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so look, I'll touch on that briefly.
Speaker 4: Look, I think when I got warned off from tracks
Speaker 4: in the UK for twelve months, that was a real
Speaker 4: shock to the system.
Speaker 1: You know, I let a lot of people down.
Speaker 4: And I never saw myself in that position before that happened,
Speaker 4: and I never believed that that would happen. But yeah,
Speaker 4: ultimately I was very naive in the situation to think
Speaker 4: that I was going to exploit a.
Speaker 1: Loophole that wasn't a loophole. Australia.
Speaker 4: The move, it was all about a change of scenery,
Speaker 4: a fresh start, you know, a culture change. And you know,
Speaker 4: little did I know that landing here, I was landing
Speaker 4: in the gambling capital of the world, which.
Speaker 1: You know it certainly isn't.
Speaker 4: After a week, I went into a pub and it
Speaker 4: had a bookies in the corner, and I thought, all
Speaker 4: my dreams have come true, so to speak. It's like,
Speaker 4: it's that easy. And it was alarming, but not in
Speaker 4: a bad way. Initially, for someone that loves gambling and
Speaker 4: someone that loves that the combined lifestyle, the drinking and
Speaker 4: the gambling and all of that other stuff that goes
Speaker 4: with it, I thought it was great. You know, I thought,
Speaker 4: this is just ideal. I can do it guilt free,
Speaker 4: and you know, nothing will ever happen. But it all
Speaker 4: unfolded pretty quickly.
Speaker 2: Because you were a student of the form you would
Speaker 2: have backed yourself to be able to make good decisions
Speaker 2: and to make a living, because that's what you've done previously.
Speaker 3: When did it all start to go wrong?
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, I could always pick a winner,
Speaker 4: always never had a problem studying the formula of something
Speaker 4: I was obviously quite good at.
Speaker 1: I could find winners. You know, I had.
Speaker 4: Access to information that others might not, so I had
Speaker 4: an edge, But the problem was I couldn't stop because
Speaker 4: I did it compulsively. As any other gambling addict or
Speaker 4: person who doesn't gamble will understand, if you can't stop
Speaker 4: doing something, eventually it's not going to work for you.
Speaker 4: And I think it began to unfold in two thousand
Speaker 4: and fourteen and I had a business. I had a
Speaker 4: couple of clients that I could see avenues where I
Speaker 4: could utilize their funds to try and make more money
Speaker 4: for myself. So I started doing that, but I wasn't
Speaker 4: doing it consciously, and I knew what I was doing,
Speaker 4: and I was in a bad place mentally and physically.
Speaker 1: And I wasn't making right decisions.
Speaker 4: And to think that I landed here in twenty twelve,
Speaker 4: and by twenty seventeen, I was in jail for five years.
Speaker 4: It's such a small period of time for someone's life
Speaker 4: to unravel the way it did, but ultimately it probably
Speaker 4: didn't start unraveling until twenty fourteen, and between that time
Speaker 4: and the time that I got arrested, it's a three
Speaker 4: year gap where everything just went boom.
Speaker 2: Because people rarely set out with the intention to steal
Speaker 2: to gamble, but it's sometimes let's use the money to
Speaker 2: chase my losses and I'll get out ahead of back
Speaker 2: in the black, as it were. But often it doesn't
Speaker 2: go that way. I think it's very common story.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I never ever intended to take one dollar
Speaker 1: of any of the client's money, the truth be known.
Speaker 1: What happened was I was running an arbitrage scheme that
Speaker 1: went barely up because of my gambling habit, and I
Speaker 1: decided to leave a bit live rather than trade out
Speaker 1: of it. And it was for a couple of hundred
Speaker 1: thousand dollars and I didn't have the necessary funds to
Speaker 1: replace it, so I had to make a call, and
Speaker 1: I made a call to another client and I fulfilled
Speaker 1: the investment, and then I used that money to gamble
Speaker 1: to chase the other money back. And it was a
Speaker 1: domino effect that kept going.
Speaker 4: Until it stopped, you know, until it became too much,
Speaker 4: until people realized that they probably.
Speaker 1: Weren't going to see their money again.
Speaker 4: And unfortunately I wasn't in a position to return that
Speaker 4: money because I gambled it.
Speaker 2: Because I think a lot of people see this situation
Speaker 2: as like a moral failing, but I think it's a pathological,
Speaker 2: compulsive situation. And I think when you see what happens
Speaker 2: to people in their day to day as they're in
Speaker 2: the grip of this sort of gambling bag, it is horrific.
Speaker 2: Tell us what an average day was like for you
Speaker 2: as you're chasing your losses.
Speaker 3: What would you do?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think for me, when I was gambling at
Speaker 4: that sort of level, you know, I might be having
Speaker 4: two or three hundred bets a day.
Speaker 1: You know what I find probably.
Speaker 4: More soul destroying about it is that, you know I
Speaker 4: wouldn't start off. I would start off under the notion
Speaker 4: that I'm just going to have a couple of bets today.
Speaker 4: You know, I used to say to myself that I
Speaker 4: didn't like to win early because if I won early,
Speaker 4: I wouldn't stop.
Speaker 1: I would run out of money by the end of
Speaker 1: the day.
Speaker 4: Because I think I can win time after time, So
Speaker 4: if I win too early, it's no good. But you know,
Speaker 4: my typical day would be that I'd get up, I'd
Speaker 4: study the form, I'd start betting at lunchtime, and you know,
Speaker 4: I might still be betting on greyhound's highness and horses
Speaker 4: until the middle of the night.
Speaker 1: You know, of all the betting accounts I ever had.
Speaker 4: There was only one time from one company did an
Speaker 4: individual who worked for them say, are you okay? Like
Speaker 4: you know, you know, you've had like three hundred bets
Speaker 4: today or in the last week, You've had this money
Speaker 4: number of bets. And I genuinely respect that guy even
Speaker 4: looking back, because he wasn't the way that their company
Speaker 4: was set up. They didn't make direct money out of
Speaker 4: me on how much I punted, It didn't matter to them.
Speaker 4: It was more a case of I was just a
Speaker 4: valuable client to them for many different reasons. But he
Speaker 4: showed true compassion on a couple of occasions. So I
Speaker 4: don't want to tie them all with the same brush.
Speaker 4: But you know, that was one account out of twenty,
Speaker 4: and I lost a lot of money through a lot
Speaker 4: of different accounts. You know, obviously the money that we're
Speaker 4: talking is one point seven million that was stolen, but
Speaker 4: the true reality of that that was probably turnover of
Speaker 4: you know, anywhere between three and four So you know,
Speaker 4: there's a lot of money that's gone over time there.
Speaker 2: Because you did know the forms, there must have been
Speaker 2: good days where you're actually winning. Were there moments where
Speaker 2: you think, well, if I get far enough ahead I
Speaker 2: can stop this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 4: I mean there was times where I won a lot
Speaker 4: of money, and you know, I would use some of
Speaker 4: it to function life, like you know, paying my rent.
Speaker 4: Because people think, you know, a lot of what was
Speaker 4: written in the press is ah, he lived this big,
Speaker 4: lavish lifestyle, he lived in this place, but the true
Speaker 4: reality is of it. I was with Telstra and I
Speaker 4: could get the records. My phone got cut off every
Speaker 4: second month because I wasn't paying one hundred and eighty.
Speaker 1: Dollars a month telephone bill.
Speaker 4: So you know, as much as it's looked upon that
Speaker 4: I was living lavishly, I was living day to day
Speaker 4: hand to mouth because all the money that I had
Speaker 4: was going towards gambling on the whole. And you know,
Speaker 4: there would be times I'd always as a compulsive gambler,
Speaker 4: I'm always under the impression that I can dig myself
Speaker 4: out of any hole, because along with being a compulsive gambler,
Speaker 4: I was a compulsive liar. And I learned how to
Speaker 4: lie to protect myself and to enable myself to be
Speaker 4: able to do these things.
Speaker 1: And you know, I look back at that now and
Speaker 1: I'm ashamed.
Speaker 4: Of some of the behavior that I portrayed, but it
Speaker 4: wasn't a true reflection of me.
Speaker 1: And I know that.
Speaker 4: And there's going to be people that will say that's bollocks,
Speaker 4: and there'll be people that will say good on for
Speaker 4: turning it around. But the reality is, I know in
Speaker 4: myself that that wasn't a true reflection my personality and
Speaker 4: my character. But when this thing gets you, it doesn't
Speaker 4: stop until it takes everything from you. And they talk
Speaker 4: about rock bottoms, and everyone's got a different one, and yeah,
Speaker 4: it can come in any shape.
Speaker 2: Or size, because what you say is correct, because every
Speaker 2: gambler that I've spoken to, or compulsive behaviors, even drugs
Speaker 2: and so forth, there's a gap between a person's values
Speaker 2: and where they found themselves, and they live in this
Speaker 2: limbo in between, which was full of anxiety, shame, and guilt,
Speaker 2: which often prevents them from stopping, and they lose themselves
Speaker 2: in that. You talk about a rock bottom, What was
Speaker 2: your personal rock bottom?
Speaker 4: It's funny because I thought I had plenty before jail,
Speaker 4: and then I went there, and I think ultimately that
Speaker 4: was definitely. Like I remember sitting in the court when
Speaker 4: I got sentenced, and I was so angry that I'd
Speaker 4: been sentenced for so long. I got such a high,
Speaker 4: big sentence. I was fuming, and I remember leaning over
Speaker 4: to my solicter saying to him, you got to lodge
Speaker 4: an appeal, like that's ridiculous. But I remember going back
Speaker 4: because I've already had ten eleven months in jail by
Speaker 4: this time. When I got sentenced, I didn't get any bail.
Speaker 4: I remember going back to the jail that night and
Speaker 4: just sitting there and reflecting on it and just thinking,
Speaker 4: you know what, this is probably a good thing.
Speaker 1: Ultimately, this is probably what I need.
Speaker 3: Because the judge didn't spare you.
Speaker 2: He gave you a good bollocking, a good dressing down
Speaker 2: in his remarks, and he talked about the people that
Speaker 2: you had stolen from their elderly people, in some cases retirees,
Speaker 2: putting their life savings into things, and there was seemed
Speaker 2: to be a very high moral culpability that he wanted
Speaker 2: to communicate to you.
Speaker 3: Did you feel that way.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think, and look, ultimately, with the
Speaker 4: benefit of hindsight, now I think it was probably the
Speaker 4: right sentence, and I think that it was a just
Speaker 4: outcome for the crime that I committed.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't hide behind the fact that I
Speaker 1: was a gambler.
Speaker 4: But what I did was the wrong thing, and it's
Speaker 4: by law, it's a punishable offense by a criminal court,
Speaker 4: and I deserved what I got in my opinion. You know,
Speaker 4: I speak to people all the time and through gambling
Speaker 4: arenas or whatever it is, and they all say, oh,
Speaker 4: you know, that.
Speaker 1: Sentence was ridiculous.
Speaker 4: But ultimately, you know, I turned people's lives upside down
Speaker 4: with what I did.
Speaker 1: You know, that's something that I've got to live with,
Speaker 1: but they've also got to live with it.
Speaker 4: So you know, there is a moral accountability that's attached
Speaker 4: to that, and you know, I need to be held
Speaker 4: accountable for what I did, and I feel.
Speaker 1: Like I was.
Speaker 2: You know. At the same time, the people who are
Speaker 2: probably along with you for the ride, enjoying that high
Speaker 2: lifestyle that you're enjoying, they all disappear when you're in
Speaker 2: the jail cell on your own and you realize you're
Speaker 2: sort of friendless, and that must be a very difficult
Speaker 2: moment personally, and you're taking stock of your own personality
Speaker 2: and your own choices. That's a moment most people don't face.
Speaker 3: What's that like?
Speaker 1: It's funny, you know, because a lot of people that were.
Speaker 4: Around when I was gambling, I honestly would have thought
Speaker 4: that they would have been quite close friends. And I
Speaker 4: wasn't under the impression that anything I could really do
Speaker 4: would ever deter them from having a friendship with me.
Speaker 4: But I was very wrong about that, and probably eighty
Speaker 4: percent of the people that I was with prior to
Speaker 4: going to jail I no longer am. And there was
Speaker 4: definitely a sense of anger at first. But you know,
Speaker 4: I've had a lot of time to reflect on that stuff,
Speaker 4: obviously from where I was, and I think that to me,
Speaker 4: that's a bonus now to live life without those people
Speaker 4: and to not have them within my circle, if you like,
Speaker 4: because I think certainly it's not that i'd believe that
Speaker 4: they're guilty by association, but certainly they're around when there
Speaker 4: was all the trimmings of what comes with being a
Speaker 4: gambler who wants to spend his money on all sorts
Speaker 4: of different things, you know, and there were people that
Speaker 4: would take advantage of that situation, and you know, they're
Speaker 4: no longer around. And to me, do I look back
Speaker 4: on that and think where are they now?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 4: Not really, because I think that they're probably doing it
Speaker 4: to someone else, or they're probably living a life that
Speaker 4: you know, maybe they regret some of it as well,
Speaker 4: i'd hope.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm sure in the Eastern Cumbers of Sydney where
Speaker 2: I also grew up as well, and I understand the
Speaker 2: tribe of people that attach themselves to you, and you
Speaker 2: can back it in that they would have attached themselves
Speaker 2: to somebody else the next hot thing, and it is
Speaker 2: a soulless experience and friendships are very tenuous. In jail,
Speaker 2: you met a different class of people. You went to
Speaker 2: a private school in England, well educated, you know, here
Speaker 2: you're meeting people with no chance in life who were
Speaker 2: in there and this is going to be their life career. Criminals,
Speaker 2: people have made some really dumb mistake. How did that
Speaker 2: impact you and give you, I guess a sense of
Speaker 2: what you'd squandered in a way.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, jail here is really eye opening. Obviously
Speaker 4: you touched on the fact that I lived in the
Speaker 4: Eastern Suburbs. I lived in a community I guess, which
Speaker 4: is very sheltered and very privileged and very out of
Speaker 4: the I'd almost call.
Speaker 1: It far removed from reality in a hones Stone.
Speaker 4: And when I went in there, you know, I went
Speaker 4: to a number of different jails within New South Wales,
Speaker 4: but I met so many people that have literally had
Speaker 4: the opposite of my lifestyle, the polar opposite. They've had
Speaker 4: no chance since the day that they were born. They've
Speaker 4: had domestic violence, they've had drug use, they've had alcohol, gambling,
Speaker 4: and they've grown up knowing only one route really, if
Speaker 4: you like, Whereas I didn't, I grew up knowing that
Speaker 4: crime was bad and that I shouldn't do it, and
Speaker 4: if I do it, you know, this is what the
Speaker 4: punishment will be. And I feel like there's so much unknown,
Speaker 4: you know, there's this like people are obsessed with crime
Speaker 4: shows and documentaries around crime and what it is and
Speaker 4: who commits it and.
Speaker 1: Murder shows and all this whatever else.
Speaker 4: But the reality is that the people who are committing
Speaker 4: day to day crimes, if you like, who just keep
Speaker 4: returning in and out of.
Speaker 1: The system year in, year out.
Speaker 4: It's really sad stories that we don't hear about out
Speaker 4: here because there's no need for it, you know, there's
Speaker 4: no need for people to hear about it. But I
Speaker 4: think that some of the stuff, like, you know, I
Speaker 4: write letters for people who couldn't write or couldn't read,
Speaker 4: you know, wanted to translate a message across to a
Speaker 4: judge when they were going in for you know, some
Speaker 4: form of crime that they've committed. They'd want to write
Speaker 4: something to the judge, not letting him or her know
Speaker 4: why they should show leniency. And I think there was
Speaker 4: I guess I was just living in this bubble where
Speaker 4: I had no idea of what real society had or
Speaker 4: was going on. And I think that you know, probably
Speaker 4: for me, that was a big wake up call.
Speaker 3: Well it was.
Speaker 2: I guess it was a humbling moment where you could
Speaker 2: look at your life to that point and what it
Speaker 2: could be from here on in. And I mean five
Speaker 2: years in jail is no joke, and it's about punishment,
Speaker 2: but it's also about rehabilitation and theory. And you're there
Speaker 2: a gambling addict. You can still gamble in jail if
Speaker 2: you want to. There's always ways to do that. But
Speaker 2: was there any semblance of anything, a program, a person,
Speaker 2: a moment where you could confront your gambling and start
Speaker 2: to make a plan about what would happen after jail.
Speaker 4: I mean, they ran a couple of things when you
Speaker 4: go into jail, they screen you, so they ask you
Speaker 4: a load of questions and they say, are you addicted
Speaker 4: to anything or whatever? I think it's mainly like they
Speaker 4: ask you whether it's alcohol, drugs. You have to nominate
Speaker 4: gambling if that's something that you've got a problem with,
Speaker 4: and I did, but I think it took like two
Speaker 4: and a half years before I got into a program
Speaker 4: to address anything around addiction. And they do this thing
Speaker 4: called Equip's Addiction, which is run by a programs officer
Speaker 4: in the jail.
Speaker 1: I mean it's better than nothing.
Speaker 4: But to me, it was verging on a waste of time,
Speaker 4: you know, And a lot of people have to do it.
Speaker 4: They make people do it in order to get certain
Speaker 4: classifications and potentially even get parole or you know, whatever
Speaker 4: it may be. So as a compulsive gambler or an alcoholic,
Speaker 4: you have to sort of volunteer the fact that you
Speaker 4: want to give it up, because otherwise it doesn't work.
Speaker 1: You have to be willing to admit that it's a problem.
Speaker 4: Whereas this is kind of forced upon people who have
Speaker 4: said at a screening question that they might have drunk
Speaker 4: too much or taken drugs from time to time. So
Speaker 4: really that was the only thing that was offered. And
Speaker 4: gambling's rife in jail in Australia, Like it's everywhere. I
Speaker 4: gambled in jail a lot. What would you gamble on
Speaker 4: the footy, the NRL horses anything, play poker, play cards.
Speaker 4: You probably gamble more in there than you would on
Speaker 4: the outside, to be fair. It's just that you've got
Speaker 4: to pay whoever it is within the system, you know,
Speaker 4: or you've got to gamble against one of your fellow
Speaker 4: inmates rather than an app or a bookie.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's everywhere.
Speaker 2: Which can be dangerous and frightening. In jail is certainly
Speaker 2: both those things, but it's also incredibly boring too, and
Speaker 2: you've got to pass the time somehow. You're facing this
Speaker 2: five year stretch. How you're feeling each day.
Speaker 4: Well, I went in there very heavy and chubby and
Speaker 4: bloated and a mess from all the drink and the
Speaker 4: drugs and the bad food and the gambling. So I
Speaker 4: pretty much said to myself that I definitely wanted to
Speaker 4: fix that up. So that was one of the first
Speaker 4: things that I did, was fitness and got myself in
Speaker 4: better shape. But I mean, you can only do that
Speaker 4: to some form of level. It depends what jail you're in,
Speaker 4: but you know, you're locked in a cell a lot
Speaker 4: of the time. It might be from three pm until
Speaker 4: eight am the next day, so.
Speaker 1: You're very limited in what you can do.
Speaker 4: You're very limited in what you can eat, what you
Speaker 4: get access to you know, you have a certain number
Speaker 4: of TV channels, whatever. But I think that you've got
Speaker 4: to be able to reflect when you're in there, because
Speaker 4: that's a lot of your time is going to be
Speaker 4: spent doing that, you know, especially when you're doing a
Speaker 4: long stretch, because effectively there is nothing else to do.
Speaker 1: You know, you can read. I wanted to study when
Speaker 1: I was in there. I wasn't allowed to.
Speaker 4: That was a big bummer for me because early on
Speaker 4: in the thing, I've really expressed an interest in looking
Speaker 4: into doing a psychology degree, but there was no assistance. Yeah,
Speaker 4: it was just very They made it harder to do
Speaker 4: it than not to do it, which, yeah, it's just
Speaker 4: I think that's a reflection of the system itself.
Speaker 2: Well, the system is there to punish you primarily, and
Speaker 2: that's always been the notion of jail. If you can
Speaker 2: make it a little bit harder than people liked them
Speaker 2: that that's part of the whole ethos of jail. But
Speaker 2: as you say, you get that time to reflect, and
Speaker 2: I guess people can have these demoscene conversions, like bold moments, epiphanies,
Speaker 2: all that type of stuff. But it's not like that,
Speaker 2: is it. It's a gradual coming back to yourself and
Speaker 2: closing that gap between what you'd become and who you
Speaker 2: really were.
Speaker 1: Well, a lot of.
Speaker 4: People love going to jail because they make money in there,
Speaker 4: or it's an opportunity for them. You learn from the
Speaker 4: best in there if you want to become a career criminal.
Speaker 1: So there's two aspects of it.
Speaker 4: You can either go in there under the notion that
Speaker 4: you really want to sort yourself out and get something
Speaker 4: from it, make it a worthwhile exercise, or you're going
Speaker 4: in there and you come out worse than you went in.
Speaker 4: And I think that's a part of the reason that
Speaker 4: we see the reoffending rates and the returns into the
Speaker 4: system is because of the lack of stability, or lack
Speaker 4: of programs, or lack of help that there is within
Speaker 4: that system. So you really have to be quite a
Speaker 4: strong character, I think, to overcome that whilst in there.
Speaker 4: And actually try and do something with your times, especially
Speaker 4: because I understand the people that are in and out
Speaker 4: doing six month stretches, there's not enough time for them
Speaker 4: to do a program or a business degree or whatever
Speaker 4: it may be. But then the ones that are in
Speaker 4: there longer term, you know, you pretty soon in you
Speaker 4: know that you're looking at a decent sentence. You want
Speaker 4: to try and put some things in place where you're
Speaker 4: going to get something from that.
Speaker 1: And that was my notion.
Speaker 4: And I knew the punishment fitted the crime, and so
Speaker 4: I knew that it was about me being punished, and
Speaker 4: you know, that meant going from jail to jail, and
Speaker 4: that meant waiting a certain period of time to get
Speaker 4: certain things. But I was a bit unlucky because obviously
Speaker 4: COVID hit when I was in jail, and that diminished
Speaker 4: any chance of any work release or early release or.
Speaker 1: Anything like that.
Speaker 4: So that was all removed from me, which is a
Speaker 4: normal aspect of prison for most people these days.
Speaker 1: With a decent sized sentence.
Speaker 4: That you will get the opportunity to go out to
Speaker 4: the community prior to your release and either work or
Speaker 4: you'll get day release or weekend release, and all of
Speaker 4: that was removed through COVID, So you know, I took
Speaker 4: a few knocks on the way, and then eventually when
Speaker 4: I got out, I knew I just had to make
Speaker 4: some changes in life.
Speaker 2: Because you went in at thirty four, a good time, Charlie,
Speaker 2: having a great time of it. You hit the sober
Speaker 2: reality of Porridge in jail, and you come out nearing forty.
Speaker 2: The world has changed completely. You're hoping to make changes yourself,
Speaker 2: but when you walk out, you see there's a gambling
Speaker 2: opportunity on every corner. It's in your phone, it is everywhere.
Speaker 2: How did you confront the hard moment of giving up
Speaker 2: your gambling addiction.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was really fortunate that when I came out,
Speaker 4: I met someone. That person was in a twelve step
Speaker 4: recovery and recommended that I go to a meeting of
Speaker 4: gamblers anonymous, and I went to a meeting, and if
Speaker 4: I'm honest, the first.
Speaker 1: One didn't really rock my boat. I wasn't taken with it.
Speaker 4: And I gambled again for a month or two and
Speaker 4: you know, nothing drastic, but I didn't enjoy it. I
Speaker 4: didn't enjoy the gambling like I felt this sense of chasing, chasing, chasing,
Speaker 4: which I didn't enjoy, and I wasn't drinking.
Speaker 1: So I was sober as well.
Speaker 4: So I started going to some more meetings and I
Speaker 4: just I started to meet people that have gone through
Speaker 4: what I was going through and hearing what they've gone
Speaker 4: through and hearing that there was some form of solution,
Speaker 4: and I just decided to give it my best shot.
Speaker 1: And I haven't looked back since.
Speaker 4: And I think that ultimately there's success within unity and groups.
Speaker 4: Like when you see someone else tread a path and
Speaker 4: they're successful, you kind of want.
Speaker 1: What they have.
Speaker 4: And I think that that's what I've probably got now
Speaker 4: from that. And yeah, it's been a huge, huge help
Speaker 4: to me. But like you say, advertising and gambling, advertising
Speaker 4: and the fact that pubs and clubs and Pokeys and
Speaker 4: every bookie under the sun can advertise, the reality is
Speaker 4: that I don't think that's going anywhere. The Pokeyes aren't
Speaker 4: going anywhere, the bookies aren't going anywhere. Horse racing, greyhounds,
Speaker 4: it's not going anywhere. You know, the footy, the sport, whatever,
Speaker 4: that's not leaving. So it's up to us as addicts
Speaker 4: if you like to try and steer clar of it organically.
Speaker 1: Without I disagree with it all the advertising lite.
Speaker 4: I don't think it should be allowed to be put
Speaker 4: in front of our children and kids and the youth
Speaker 4: of today.
Speaker 1: But ultimately they seem to get away with it.
Speaker 4: Nothing's being done on the Murphy recommendations, which is very sad.
Speaker 1: You know, we've just re elected.
Speaker 4: Alban Easy and I don't really believe that he is
Speaker 4: that interested in making any change to it, which is unfortunate. Again,
Speaker 4: but I don't think that any of them were prior
Speaker 4: to the election, if I'm honest, and I think that
Speaker 4: a lot of them would use it as a potentially
Speaker 4: a sounding board to try and get voters, but I
Speaker 4: think ultimately there's too much money coming through it.
Speaker 1: So you've got to work out a.
Speaker 4: Way where you can stay away from this without that
Speaker 4: being reality. And I think that that's what I've had
Speaker 4: to do, and I know plenty of other people that
Speaker 4: do it, and I think that's, you know, the best
Speaker 4: avenue to use at this stage.
Speaker 2: Because governments have a massive conflict of interest in Australia.
Speaker 2: As much as they'd like to promote responsible gambling messages
Speaker 2: and so forth, it's inescapable that our budgets rely upon
Speaker 2: gambling taxes and excise, and that industry relies for its
Speaker 2: success on the two or three percent of problem gamblers
Speaker 2: like you, So I can't see how it's ever going
Speaker 2: to change. It's always up to the individuals such as
Speaker 2: yourself to do that. And as you say, you're always
Speaker 2: an addict, how do you guard against relapses? Because, like
Speaker 2: I say, you walk out the door, you can be
Speaker 2: hit with a dozen gambling messages before you get to
Speaker 2: the corner.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4: And I think I mean for me personally, I just
Speaker 4: do what I've been doing for the last three and
Speaker 4: a half years, which is I'll concentrate on myself. You know,
Speaker 4: I might try and talk to people wherever possible who
Speaker 4: are going through the same scenario.
Speaker 1: That I was.
Speaker 4: I think that helping people is a huge part of
Speaker 4: recovering oneself.
Speaker 1: Look, I'm very in touch.
Speaker 4: With what they're doing in the UK at the moment
Speaker 4: in terms of around gambling and the legislation, and they're
Speaker 4: doing affordability checks and that's been a huge driver. If
Speaker 4: someone had come to me when I was in the
Speaker 4: midst of my gambling and said, how are you affording
Speaker 4: to do this? I wouldn't have been able to prove
Speaker 4: my income, and so that avenue of opportunity would have
Speaker 4: been cut off to me. Now, I know there's black
Speaker 4: markets and there's bookies, but it's small changes like that
Speaker 4: that can possibly help just as much as relinquishing advertising
Speaker 4: and things like that. But if you cut off avenues
Speaker 4: for gamblers, it's more likely that they will seek options
Speaker 4: where they could stop gambling. But if everything's open to you,
Speaker 4: and you know, if you can steal money, or you
Speaker 4: can take money from employers, or you can take money
Speaker 4: from your parents, and you can gamble, Like if you're
Speaker 4: a nineteen year old and you take twenty or thirty
Speaker 4: grand off someone, no company's going to ask them where
Speaker 4: they got that money from.
Speaker 1: They're going to take it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And when I pick up the newspapers every day, almost
Speaker 2: there's another story about a fraud, an embezzlement, straight out theft,
Speaker 2: people stealing to gamble, and that also doesn't include the
Speaker 2: amount of money that's stolen from families. It's never reported.
Speaker 2: So you've had a chance to see the extent of
Speaker 2: this problem. And I don't think it's getting any better.
Speaker 1: No, And I think.
Speaker 4: That you hit the nail on the head Gambling is
Speaker 4: a disease, and the feeling that it gives you is
Speaker 4: a drug. It's just the same as taking drugs. There
Speaker 4: is a rush like no other when you're doing it,
Speaker 4: and so for an addict, if he has to steal
Speaker 4: money to do it or she has to steal money
Speaker 4: to do it, they will do that, just like a
Speaker 4: drug addict will take money to go and score drugs.
Speaker 4: It's the same thing, but it's not universally recognized as.
Speaker 1: A problem, and that is the problem. The problem sits
Speaker 1: within the problem.
Speaker 2: And yet when people come for sentencing, there is no
Speaker 2: mitigation for a gambling addiction the way that you might
Speaker 2: have for other forms of addiction, including drugs. You're getting
Speaker 2: the highest possible sentence, and the media often portrays these
Speaker 2: gambling criminals, if you like, as losers, as the exception,
Speaker 2: the people who didn't have the moral fiber, couldn't take
Speaker 2: the heat, didn't have the courage, whatever it is. So
Speaker 2: while we have that attitude that stokes the problem with gambling,
Speaker 2: in my opinion, that we're not addressing the fact that
Speaker 2: you're not a career criminal.
Speaker 3: You never set out.
Speaker 2: To do this, but it was your addiction that drove
Speaker 2: you in a place and I love the fact that
Speaker 2: you're not ashamed to admit what you did and take responsibility.
Speaker 2: But there needs to be, in my opinion, some mitigation
Speaker 2: given to people like you and sentencing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, look, I had two guys I know
Speaker 4: and have had a bit to do with in the
Speaker 4: last couple of years, have both been sentenced for similar
Speaker 4: crimes to mine, And when there were sentences, I was just, honestly,
Speaker 4: I was fabergasted by the sentences that they received. I
Speaker 4: was just I'm dumbfounded because their cases pointed towards the
Speaker 4: gambling side of things, probably way more than minded. They
Speaker 4: both received quite similar sentences to me, and I thought,
Speaker 4: how can a judge honestly looking at the facts of
Speaker 4: where this person spent their money and gambled their money.
Speaker 4: How can he honestly sit there and say that this
Speaker 4: is not a problem. I just can't get my head
Speaker 4: around it. I cannot fathom how they can come to
Speaker 4: that decision consciously.
Speaker 1: You know, it just doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker 4: You know, if someone was high on drugs and went
Speaker 4: and robbed a house, there's mitigating factors there because they
Speaker 4: wouldn't do it.
Speaker 1: Potentially in their right mind or in a sober state.
Speaker 4: So what's the difference seeing a gambler taking money from
Speaker 4: his employer to gamble with or someone stealing who's high
Speaker 4: on drugs.
Speaker 1: To me, there's no difference there whatsoever.
Speaker 2: Well, I totally agree. And one thing that I've noticed
Speaker 2: about gamblers, I mean, I guess drug x as well,
Speaker 2: is that it's very isolating. People spend all their time
Speaker 2: feeding this addiction. One psychologist in Canada I've spoken, he
Speaker 2: talks about feeding the baby tiger. At the beginning, it's fun,
Speaker 2: it's cute, and it's novel, but it gets bigger and
Speaker 2: bigger and bigger, and it takes up all your time
Speaker 2: feeding this ravenous tiger. And by the end you've exhausted,
Speaker 2: you isolated from your family, there's nowhere to go. And
Speaker 2: often gamblers end up bankrupt, in jail or dead by
Speaker 2: their own hand. And we're seeing an epidemic of male
Speaker 2: suicides in this country, and I would hazard a guess
Speaker 2: that quite a bit of it is related to these
Speaker 2: sorts of issues.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think suicide is just at an
Speaker 4: all time high around the world, but here in Australia.
Speaker 4: I know, I was looking up some statistics of it
Speaker 4: the other day just through pure interest, and I think
Speaker 4: there was something like thirty eight hundred suicide deaths last year.
Speaker 1: And I think I mentioned to.
Speaker 4: You that I really despise the way that the media
Speaker 4: talk about suicide or they don't talk about it. If
Speaker 4: someone commits suicide, you basically are playing a guessing game,
Speaker 4: reading the article until the very bottom where it says
Speaker 4: cool lifeline if you've found this disturbing, or if you've
Speaker 4: know someone that's going through this. And I find that
Speaker 4: this is about awareness. Unless people know about it, this
Speaker 4: is where the problem is. And suicide is a byproduct
Speaker 4: of someone losing all their money and finding no avenue
Speaker 4: or being cornered into a situation that they can't get
Speaker 4: out of, and so there's only one way out, and
Speaker 4: it's the gates of prison or a mental asylum or death,
Speaker 4: and death is brought about by suicide. And you know,
Speaker 4: I've lost a family member through suicide. I also know
Speaker 4: multiple people that have committed suicide, and it never gets
Speaker 4: any easier to hear about it. But I do feel
Speaker 4: like there's a major problem with people not willing to
Speaker 4: talk about it and not willing to advertise the fact
Speaker 4: that this has happened because of something. You know, I
Speaker 4: lived near a notorious suicide spot in Sydney, and you know,
Speaker 4: I see the cop cars coming up and down here
Speaker 4: looking for bodies all the time. It never gets any
Speaker 4: easier to see, but it just doesn't surprise me. And
Speaker 4: I've bumped into people. I bumped into a guy back
Speaker 4: in February. He was going to jump, and you know,
Speaker 4: I sat there and chatted to him for about twenty
Speaker 4: minutes and I called the police and it turned out
Speaker 4: he tried to do it the previous two days as well,
Speaker 4: and he'd been seen on some cameras and you know,
Speaker 4: I never saw him again. But that's just another example of, like,
Speaker 4: we don't know what people are going through behind closed doors,
Speaker 4: but if they read an article that can help them
Speaker 4: understand about some of these things, there's a good chance
Speaker 4: that that might carry some weight.
Speaker 2: Because you've been in that dark place between your own
Speaker 2: perception of yourself and your values and what you've become
Speaker 2: a lot of people find that reflection awful, and you
Speaker 2: did some terrible things, you admitted to it. Did you
Speaker 2: ever get to that dark place where ending it all
Speaker 2: seemed a convenient way out.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yep, you know, certainly the first couple of days
Speaker 4: in Surrey Hill's lock up and I got arrested initially,
Speaker 4: and then you know, after I got sentenced, I was like,
Speaker 4: I've got so long to go. I don't know if
Speaker 4: I really want to do this. I'm not going to
Speaker 4: have anything when I get out. But my family, you know,
Speaker 4: I hurt them so much, and that would have been
Speaker 4: the icing on the cake to do that. And I,
Speaker 4: you know, I owe my family everything because they stood
Speaker 4: by me. They didn't have to, and I can assure
Speaker 4: you I wouldn't have blamed them if they didn't.
Speaker 1: But ultimately, my relationship with them has never ever been better.
Speaker 4: And I look back and think of some of those
Speaker 4: thoughts that I had when I was thinking about doing
Speaker 4: the worst thing, and I'm just really grateful that I
Speaker 4: came to my senses, because I told you the other day,
Speaker 4: I lost a friend earlier this year to suicide, and
Speaker 4: ultimately I wasn't that surprised by it. But also what
Speaker 4: it leaves behind is absolute and utter carnage, and I
Speaker 4: just don't believe that that's a good way to leave
Speaker 4: a legacy.
Speaker 2: That's right and you're now in your early forties, you've
Speaker 2: come out the other side of this.
Speaker 3: How does life look?
Speaker 2: Because I reckon, he's still a young man, because like
Speaker 2: I'm sixty two, so everyone's young in their forties. How
Speaker 2: do you see the future from here that you may
Speaker 2: not have been able to see before?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I consider myself still quite young because I'm an
Speaker 4: immature baby, if you like, who's only just started working
Speaker 4: out how to live life properly on the right side
Speaker 4: of life. I guess you know. I lead a very
Speaker 4: simple life these days. I have a very beautiful partner
Speaker 4: who understands and respects a lot of what I've been
Speaker 4: through and a lot of what I've done.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I lead a very healthy lifestyle. I don't drink,
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 4: Gamble anymore, and I've started to appreciate life for what
Speaker 4: it is. I mean, I came to Australia and I
Speaker 4: did the opposite of what the real culture is here,
Speaker 4: especially where I live, which is fitness and good eating
Speaker 4: and all that sort of stuff. I did the opposite
Speaker 4: of that for the first five years that I was here,
Speaker 4: and so now I'm out the backside of it and
Speaker 4: doing I guess what a lot of other people in
Speaker 4: this area would do and stay fit, and I think
Speaker 4: I'm about to come to the end of my sentence
Speaker 4: in totality, So I'm looking forward to that because my
Speaker 4: travel's obviously been limited because of it. You know, I
Speaker 4: haven't been able to see my family as much as
Speaker 4: i'd want to. So a lot of that is things
Speaker 4: that I'm looking forward to doing and that life's about
Speaker 4: to hopefully afford me.
Speaker 2: Sure, unlucky in gambling, lucky in life. Ultimately, it's an
Speaker 2: amazing story. And I'm sure there are people listening here
Speaker 2: right now who are confronting exactly the same issues that
Speaker 2: you confronted, and they're doing it in silence. They're doing
Speaker 2: it and they're concealing things, they're contemplating how to feed
Speaker 2: the gambling addiction. What would be your message if you
Speaker 2: could speak straight to their hearts.
Speaker 4: I think I'd just say, look, I think twice, because
Speaker 4: whatever you do now, you won't be able to take back.
Speaker 4: And I can assure you that the other side is
Speaker 4: not where you want to be. And I think that
Speaker 4: you know, if it's gambling that's an issue, there's avenues
Speaker 4: of help. There's plenty of avenues you know, pick up
Speaker 4: the phone.
Speaker 1: And I don't think there's enough of this.
Speaker 4: I know that us as blokes, especially like we never
Speaker 4: talk about our problems with each other. And you know,
Speaker 4: I know there's a number of mental health charities that
Speaker 4: are very helpful and I really am a massive advocate
Speaker 4: for that because I've seen the power of one person
Speaker 4: picking up the phone to another work on so many
Speaker 4: different occasions that I would just say, before you're going
Speaker 4: to do anything's really stupid, pick up the phone first
Speaker 4: and speak to someone, and if.
Speaker 1: You still want to go and do it after that,
Speaker 1: you know, we can't stop you.
Speaker 4: But you know, I think if it's going to be
Speaker 4: the wrong thing that you're going to do, live with
Speaker 4: the consequences of what you're going to do, because they
Speaker 4: will come. You know, we don't go through life with
Speaker 4: no consequences. Eventually it catches up with us. And you
Speaker 4: know it did for me.
Speaker 1: It was the making of me, but that might not
Speaker 1: be the case for everyone.
Speaker 2: Ed. I really appreciate you sharing your story today. It's
Speaker 2: taken a fee bit of courage and also some courage
Speaker 2: to admit your mistakes and move beyond them.
Speaker 3: I wish you all the success in life. Thank you
Speaker 3: so much for your time.
Speaker 1: Thanks Adam, it's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 4: And yeah, I was really overjoyed to be coming on this,
Speaker 4: so thanks very much for having me.
Speaker 3: That was Ed Toller. He's learned a very hard lesson.
Speaker 2: They fall from a very high place to a very
Speaker 2: low place, and it's something that a lot of families,
Speaker 2: a lot of individuals are contemplating. In Australia. We are
Speaker 2: in the grip of a severe epidemic effort. If you
Speaker 2: have seen yourself in the story we've told, I want
Speaker 2: you to look in the description on this podcast. You'll
Speaker 2: see some lines from the places you can get help.
Speaker 3: Do it.
Speaker 2: Don't miss out because your life is your life. Don't
Speaker 2: let it be destroyed by your addiction. Face up to
Speaker 2: what you're doing and try to make amends because take
Speaker 2: it from Ed, five years in jail is a hard
Speaker 2: way to learn those lessons. This has been a real
Speaker 2: crime with Adam Shanned. Thank you for listening.