1 00:00:05,881 --> 00:00:07,801 Speaker 1: Appoche production. 2 00:00:14,161 --> 00:00:16,481 Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand, I'm your host 3 00:00:16,601 --> 00:00:20,481 Speaker 2: Adam Shand. Australia is the gambling capital of the world 4 00:00:20,561 --> 00:00:23,521 Speaker 2: by a huge margin. Daylight is second. 5 00:00:24,201 --> 00:00:27,321 Speaker 3: Australians lose more money gambling than anyone. 6 00:00:27,001 --> 00:00:27,761 Speaker 1: Else on Earth. 7 00:00:28,481 --> 00:00:31,761 Speaker 2: Our turnover is greater than the GDP of all but 8 00:00:31,921 --> 00:00:35,681 Speaker 2: fifty countries of the world, and the losses are just 9 00:00:35,841 --> 00:00:36,641 Speaker 2: as staggering. 10 00:00:37,161 --> 00:00:39,361 Speaker 1: In the twenty twenty two to twenty twenty three period, 11 00:00:39,641 --> 00:00:43,881 Speaker 1: Australian has lost approximately thirty two billion dollars to gambling and. 12 00:00:43,801 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 2: We have an epidemic of gambling related crime. Some of 13 00:00:47,241 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 2: the crimes are ingenious, but most have a compulsive, pathological 14 00:00:51,161 --> 00:00:53,721 Speaker 2: nature to them. Whenever I see a story where someone 15 00:00:53,721 --> 00:00:57,641 Speaker 2: has stolen from their employers, family, or friends, I look 16 00:00:57,761 --> 00:01:02,041 Speaker 2: for the gambling link. Gambling has always driven crime. Many 17 00:01:02,081 --> 00:01:06,241 Speaker 2: of our most notorious crooks were also huge punters. But 18 00:01:06,321 --> 00:01:09,041 Speaker 2: the people I'm seeing go through the courts today are 19 00:01:09,121 --> 00:01:14,521 Speaker 2: not career criminals, but people feeding an addiction. Ed Toller 20 00:01:14,961 --> 00:01:18,121 Speaker 2: stole one point seven million from people who believe he 21 00:01:18,161 --> 00:01:21,441 Speaker 2: was a financial advisor who could invest their money wisely. 22 00:01:21,761 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 2: In total, he swindled one million seven hundred and forty 23 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,601 Speaker 2: four thousand, two hundred and twenty dollars from fourteen elderly 24 00:01:28,721 --> 00:01:33,481 Speaker 2: and unsophisticated investors, but instead he spent it on backing 25 00:01:33,521 --> 00:01:37,441 Speaker 2: horses and living a fantasy lifestyle. He promised to invest 26 00:01:37,441 --> 00:01:40,881 Speaker 2: the money instead, He's accused of gambling it away on 27 00:01:41,041 --> 00:01:45,001 Speaker 2: horses and sports, but reality eventually came calling, and in 28 00:01:45,041 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, Ed was sentenced to eight years in jail, 29 00:01:48,601 --> 00:01:53,201 Speaker 2: and he served five. He's free again, rebuilding his life, 30 00:01:53,361 --> 00:01:55,401 Speaker 2: and he now shares the story of his fall from 31 00:01:55,441 --> 00:01:58,441 Speaker 2: grace and what it offers others in the grip of 32 00:01:58,481 --> 00:02:01,441 Speaker 2: a gambling addiction. And I'm really pleased to welcome Ed 33 00:02:01,481 --> 00:02:02,601 Speaker 2: to the Real Crime Studio. 34 00:02:02,601 --> 00:02:05,601 Speaker 1: Okay, Ed, oh good, I Adam, thanks thanks for having me. 35 00:02:06,361 --> 00:02:08,561 Speaker 2: How do you reflect on what happened to you and 36 00:02:08,601 --> 00:02:09,801 Speaker 2: your journey to this moment? 37 00:02:11,041 --> 00:02:13,121 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you. 38 00:02:13,081 --> 00:02:15,401 Speaker 4: Touched on a couple of things during that intro, and 39 00:02:15,481 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 4: gambling and the money that I took and the eventual 40 00:02:18,441 --> 00:02:21,361 Speaker 4: consequence of it. I guess you know, they all happened 41 00:02:21,361 --> 00:02:25,721 Speaker 4: so far apart, but ultimately the downfall, if you like, 42 00:02:25,881 --> 00:02:29,841 Speaker 4: or the end result was I guess an inevitability. And 43 00:02:29,921 --> 00:02:32,041 Speaker 4: you know, I probably could have seen it coming twenty 44 00:02:32,161 --> 00:02:34,121 Speaker 4: years ago, but chose to. 45 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:36,081 Speaker 1: I guess it's not that I. 46 00:02:36,121 --> 00:02:39,561 Speaker 4: Chose to ignore it, but I certainly chose to avoid 47 00:02:40,081 --> 00:02:43,361 Speaker 4: thinking about it because I could see that gambling was 48 00:02:43,401 --> 00:02:45,681 Speaker 4: a real problem for me, but I wasn't willing to 49 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:47,481 Speaker 4: admit that early on in the piece. 50 00:02:48,161 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 2: You were born in England, and I think you all 51 00:02:50,321 --> 00:02:53,881 Speaker 2: gambling began there, in horse racing and so forth. 52 00:02:54,881 --> 00:02:56,961 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I've been involved and tied in with 53 00:02:57,041 --> 00:03:00,001 Speaker 4: horse racing for a big part of my life through 54 00:03:00,001 --> 00:03:02,321 Speaker 4: one way or another. You know, I had some family 55 00:03:02,401 --> 00:03:05,121 Speaker 4: ties within the industry. I loved it. 56 00:03:05,561 --> 00:03:08,281 Speaker 1: I still do. I'm enamored with the sport. I think 57 00:03:08,321 --> 00:03:11,201 Speaker 1: it's something that, unfortunately. 58 00:03:10,601 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 4: You either really like it and take a really good 59 00:03:12,441 --> 00:03:15,001 Speaker 4: interest in it or it's just never for you. And 60 00:03:15,041 --> 00:03:17,201 Speaker 4: I think unfortunately I was one of those people where 61 00:03:17,641 --> 00:03:21,001 Speaker 4: it got me early on. And it wasn't initially about 62 00:03:21,001 --> 00:03:23,001 Speaker 4: the gambling. It was more about the theater of the 63 00:03:23,041 --> 00:03:27,521 Speaker 4: sport and what it offered. But as my opportunities within 64 00:03:27,561 --> 00:03:30,761 Speaker 4: the industry sort of dimmed, I found that gambling was 65 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,921 Speaker 4: one that was always there and I could always utilize 66 00:03:33,921 --> 00:03:36,881 Speaker 4: and I could always rely on and I guess I 67 00:03:37,001 --> 00:03:39,121 Speaker 4: was under the impression that I could make a living 68 00:03:39,121 --> 00:03:42,881 Speaker 4: out of gambling on horse racing and other sports, and 69 00:03:43,401 --> 00:03:44,281 Speaker 4: how wrong I could be. 70 00:03:45,521 --> 00:03:47,481 Speaker 2: Well, what was the path then, because I believe you're 71 00:03:47,481 --> 00:03:49,801 Speaker 2: involved in racing back in England and I think you 72 00:03:49,801 --> 00:03:51,681 Speaker 2: were warned off tracks for a couple of years there. 73 00:03:51,721 --> 00:03:55,561 Speaker 2: There was a story about tips and jockeys and so forth, 74 00:03:55,601 --> 00:03:57,881 Speaker 2: and you were caught up in that, and I guess 75 00:03:57,921 --> 00:04:01,841 Speaker 2: your livelihood was curtailed then. I think you called it 76 00:04:01,881 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 2: a toxic lifestyle you're involved with. You come to Australia, 77 00:04:05,801 --> 00:04:06,561 Speaker 2: What was your plan? 78 00:04:07,641 --> 00:04:11,161 Speaker 1: Yeah, so look, I'll touch on that briefly. 79 00:04:11,201 --> 00:04:13,721 Speaker 4: Look, I think when I got warned off from tracks 80 00:04:13,721 --> 00:04:16,241 Speaker 4: in the UK for twelve months, that was a real 81 00:04:16,241 --> 00:04:17,161 Speaker 4: shock to the system. 82 00:04:17,401 --> 00:04:18,801 Speaker 1: You know, I let a lot of people down. 83 00:04:19,281 --> 00:04:24,001 Speaker 4: And I never saw myself in that position before that happened, 84 00:04:24,001 --> 00:04:26,681 Speaker 4: and I never believed that that would happen. But yeah, 85 00:04:26,761 --> 00:04:29,561 Speaker 4: ultimately I was very naive in the situation to think 86 00:04:29,601 --> 00:04:32,121 Speaker 4: that I was going to exploit a. 87 00:04:32,041 --> 00:04:35,081 Speaker 1: Loophole that wasn't a loophole. Australia. 88 00:04:35,161 --> 00:04:37,201 Speaker 4: The move, it was all about a change of scenery, 89 00:04:37,481 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 4: a fresh start, you know, a culture change. And you know, 90 00:04:41,281 --> 00:04:43,681 Speaker 4: little did I know that landing here, I was landing 91 00:04:43,721 --> 00:04:46,241 Speaker 4: in the gambling capital of the world, which. 92 00:04:46,081 --> 00:04:47,281 Speaker 1: You know it certainly isn't. 93 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:49,241 Speaker 4: After a week, I went into a pub and it 94 00:04:49,281 --> 00:04:52,201 Speaker 4: had a bookies in the corner, and I thought, all 95 00:04:52,241 --> 00:04:54,561 Speaker 4: my dreams have come true, so to speak. It's like, 96 00:04:54,641 --> 00:04:58,481 Speaker 4: it's that easy. And it was alarming, but not in 97 00:04:58,521 --> 00:05:02,041 Speaker 4: a bad way. Initially, for someone that loves gambling and 98 00:05:02,081 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 4: someone that loves that the combined lifestyle, the drinking and 99 00:05:05,921 --> 00:05:07,841 Speaker 4: the gambling and all of that other stuff that goes 100 00:05:07,841 --> 00:05:10,721 Speaker 4: with it, I thought it was great. You know, I thought, 101 00:05:10,721 --> 00:05:13,961 Speaker 4: this is just ideal. I can do it guilt free, 102 00:05:14,041 --> 00:05:17,161 Speaker 4: and you know, nothing will ever happen. But it all 103 00:05:17,241 --> 00:05:18,321 Speaker 4: unfolded pretty quickly. 104 00:05:18,801 --> 00:05:21,361 Speaker 2: Because you were a student of the form you would 105 00:05:21,361 --> 00:05:24,441 Speaker 2: have backed yourself to be able to make good decisions 106 00:05:25,041 --> 00:05:27,921 Speaker 2: and to make a living, because that's what you've done previously. 107 00:05:28,641 --> 00:05:30,401 Speaker 3: When did it all start to go wrong? 108 00:05:31,721 --> 00:05:34,281 Speaker 4: I mean, you know, I could always pick a winner, 109 00:05:34,801 --> 00:05:38,601 Speaker 4: always never had a problem studying the formula of something 110 00:05:38,641 --> 00:05:39,921 Speaker 4: I was obviously quite good at. 111 00:05:40,401 --> 00:05:42,521 Speaker 1: I could find winners. You know, I had. 112 00:05:42,401 --> 00:05:45,641 Speaker 4: Access to information that others might not, so I had 113 00:05:45,721 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 4: an edge, But the problem was I couldn't stop because 114 00:05:49,001 --> 00:05:52,561 Speaker 4: I did it compulsively. As any other gambling addict or 115 00:05:52,641 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 4: person who doesn't gamble will understand, if you can't stop 116 00:05:56,121 --> 00:05:58,281 Speaker 4: doing something, eventually it's not going to work for you. 117 00:05:58,361 --> 00:06:01,081 Speaker 4: And I think it began to unfold in two thousand 118 00:06:01,081 --> 00:06:06,121 Speaker 4: and fourteen and I had a business. I had a 119 00:06:06,121 --> 00:06:08,841 Speaker 4: couple of clients that I could see avenues where I 120 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 4: could utilize their funds to try and make more money 121 00:06:11,721 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 4: for myself. So I started doing that, but I wasn't 122 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:17,521 Speaker 4: doing it consciously, and I knew what I was doing, 123 00:06:17,561 --> 00:06:23,281 Speaker 4: and I was in a bad place mentally and physically. 124 00:06:23,081 --> 00:06:25,001 Speaker 1: And I wasn't making right decisions. 125 00:06:25,081 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 4: And to think that I landed here in twenty twelve, 126 00:06:28,001 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 4: and by twenty seventeen, I was in jail for five years. 127 00:06:32,721 --> 00:06:35,641 Speaker 4: It's such a small period of time for someone's life 128 00:06:35,641 --> 00:06:39,281 Speaker 4: to unravel the way it did, but ultimately it probably 129 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:43,041 Speaker 4: didn't start unraveling until twenty fourteen, and between that time 130 00:06:43,081 --> 00:06:45,841 Speaker 4: and the time that I got arrested, it's a three 131 00:06:45,921 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 4: year gap where everything just went boom. 132 00:06:49,921 --> 00:06:53,801 Speaker 2: Because people rarely set out with the intention to steal 133 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 2: to gamble, but it's sometimes let's use the money to 134 00:06:57,521 --> 00:07:01,041 Speaker 2: chase my losses and I'll get out ahead of back 135 00:07:01,081 --> 00:07:04,121 Speaker 2: in the black, as it were. But often it doesn't 136 00:07:04,161 --> 00:07:06,001 Speaker 2: go that way. I think it's very common story. 137 00:07:06,601 --> 00:07:10,681 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I never ever intended to take one dollar 138 00:07:10,721 --> 00:07:13,801 Speaker 1: of any of the client's money, the truth be known. 139 00:07:14,321 --> 00:07:18,881 Speaker 1: What happened was I was running an arbitrage scheme that 140 00:07:19,481 --> 00:07:22,881 Speaker 1: went barely up because of my gambling habit, and I 141 00:07:22,921 --> 00:07:26,761 Speaker 1: decided to leave a bit live rather than trade out 142 00:07:26,761 --> 00:07:28,801 Speaker 1: of it. And it was for a couple of hundred 143 00:07:28,801 --> 00:07:33,161 Speaker 1: thousand dollars and I didn't have the necessary funds to 144 00:07:33,241 --> 00:07:36,521 Speaker 1: replace it, so I had to make a call, and 145 00:07:36,761 --> 00:07:39,561 Speaker 1: I made a call to another client and I fulfilled 146 00:07:39,561 --> 00:07:42,641 Speaker 1: the investment, and then I used that money to gamble 147 00:07:42,681 --> 00:07:45,481 Speaker 1: to chase the other money back. And it was a 148 00:07:45,481 --> 00:07:47,401 Speaker 1: domino effect that kept going. 149 00:07:47,481 --> 00:07:50,481 Speaker 4: Until it stopped, you know, until it became too much, 150 00:07:50,561 --> 00:07:53,121 Speaker 4: until people realized that they probably. 151 00:07:52,841 --> 00:07:54,201 Speaker 1: Weren't going to see their money again. 152 00:07:54,241 --> 00:07:57,441 Speaker 4: And unfortunately I wasn't in a position to return that 153 00:07:57,561 --> 00:07:59,641 Speaker 4: money because I gambled it. 154 00:08:00,921 --> 00:08:03,721 Speaker 2: Because I think a lot of people see this situation 155 00:08:04,041 --> 00:08:07,641 Speaker 2: as like a moral failing, but I think it's a pathological, 156 00:08:07,681 --> 00:08:11,481 Speaker 2: compulsive situation. And I think when you see what happens 157 00:08:11,521 --> 00:08:13,721 Speaker 2: to people in their day to day as they're in 158 00:08:13,761 --> 00:08:18,521 Speaker 2: the grip of this sort of gambling bag, it is horrific. 159 00:08:18,841 --> 00:08:21,161 Speaker 2: Tell us what an average day was like for you 160 00:08:21,241 --> 00:08:22,601 Speaker 2: as you're chasing your losses. 161 00:08:22,761 --> 00:08:23,401 Speaker 3: What would you do? 162 00:08:24,801 --> 00:08:27,881 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think for me, when I was gambling at 163 00:08:27,921 --> 00:08:30,001 Speaker 4: that sort of level, you know, I might be having 164 00:08:30,041 --> 00:08:31,481 Speaker 4: two or three hundred bets a day. 165 00:08:32,321 --> 00:08:35,121 Speaker 1: You know what I find probably. 166 00:08:34,761 --> 00:08:37,481 Speaker 4: More soul destroying about it is that, you know I 167 00:08:37,521 --> 00:08:40,161 Speaker 4: wouldn't start off. I would start off under the notion 168 00:08:40,281 --> 00:08:42,081 Speaker 4: that I'm just going to have a couple of bets today. 169 00:08:42,561 --> 00:08:44,201 Speaker 4: You know, I used to say to myself that I 170 00:08:44,201 --> 00:08:46,881 Speaker 4: didn't like to win early because if I won early, 171 00:08:46,881 --> 00:08:47,681 Speaker 4: I wouldn't stop. 172 00:08:48,121 --> 00:08:49,921 Speaker 1: I would run out of money by the end of 173 00:08:49,921 --> 00:08:50,201 Speaker 1: the day. 174 00:08:50,241 --> 00:08:53,321 Speaker 4: Because I think I can win time after time, So 175 00:08:53,401 --> 00:08:56,281 Speaker 4: if I win too early, it's no good. But you know, 176 00:08:56,361 --> 00:08:58,881 Speaker 4: my typical day would be that I'd get up, I'd 177 00:08:58,881 --> 00:09:03,881 Speaker 4: study the form, I'd start betting at lunchtime, and you know, 178 00:09:03,961 --> 00:09:07,001 Speaker 4: I might still be betting on greyhound's highness and horses 179 00:09:07,081 --> 00:09:08,121 Speaker 4: until the middle of the night. 180 00:09:08,841 --> 00:09:11,601 Speaker 1: You know, of all the betting accounts I ever had. 181 00:09:12,201 --> 00:09:15,281 Speaker 4: There was only one time from one company did an 182 00:09:15,361 --> 00:09:18,841 Speaker 4: individual who worked for them say, are you okay? Like 183 00:09:19,321 --> 00:09:22,161 Speaker 4: you know, you know, you've had like three hundred bets 184 00:09:22,161 --> 00:09:24,641 Speaker 4: today or in the last week, You've had this money 185 00:09:24,721 --> 00:09:28,441 Speaker 4: number of bets. And I genuinely respect that guy even 186 00:09:28,481 --> 00:09:32,001 Speaker 4: looking back, because he wasn't the way that their company 187 00:09:32,081 --> 00:09:35,121 Speaker 4: was set up. They didn't make direct money out of 188 00:09:35,161 --> 00:09:38,441 Speaker 4: me on how much I punted, It didn't matter to them. 189 00:09:38,481 --> 00:09:41,201 Speaker 4: It was more a case of I was just a 190 00:09:41,281 --> 00:09:45,921 Speaker 4: valuable client to them for many different reasons. But he 191 00:09:46,041 --> 00:09:49,881 Speaker 4: showed true compassion on a couple of occasions. So I 192 00:09:49,921 --> 00:09:51,721 Speaker 4: don't want to tie them all with the same brush. 193 00:09:51,761 --> 00:09:54,561 Speaker 4: But you know, that was one account out of twenty, 194 00:09:55,321 --> 00:09:57,321 Speaker 4: and I lost a lot of money through a lot 195 00:09:57,401 --> 00:10:00,161 Speaker 4: of different accounts. You know, obviously the money that we're 196 00:10:00,201 --> 00:10:03,881 Speaker 4: talking is one point seven million that was stolen, but 197 00:10:03,961 --> 00:10:06,601 Speaker 4: the true reality of that that was probably turnover of 198 00:10:06,921 --> 00:10:10,801 Speaker 4: you know, anywhere between three and four So you know, 199 00:10:10,881 --> 00:10:13,361 Speaker 4: there's a lot of money that's gone over time there. 200 00:10:14,121 --> 00:10:15,881 Speaker 2: Because you did know the forms, there must have been 201 00:10:15,921 --> 00:10:18,761 Speaker 2: good days where you're actually winning. Were there moments where 202 00:10:18,761 --> 00:10:20,281 Speaker 2: you think, well, if I get far enough ahead I 203 00:10:20,321 --> 00:10:20,921 Speaker 2: can stop this. 204 00:10:21,961 --> 00:10:23,041 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 205 00:10:23,041 --> 00:10:25,361 Speaker 4: I mean there was times where I won a lot 206 00:10:25,361 --> 00:10:27,801 Speaker 4: of money, and you know, I would use some of 207 00:10:27,841 --> 00:10:31,481 Speaker 4: it to function life, like you know, paying my rent. 208 00:10:31,641 --> 00:10:33,561 Speaker 4: Because people think, you know, a lot of what was 209 00:10:34,041 --> 00:10:36,521 Speaker 4: written in the press is ah, he lived this big, 210 00:10:36,601 --> 00:10:40,041 Speaker 4: lavish lifestyle, he lived in this place, but the true 211 00:10:40,081 --> 00:10:42,361 Speaker 4: reality is of it. I was with Telstra and I 212 00:10:42,401 --> 00:10:44,921 Speaker 4: could get the records. My phone got cut off every 213 00:10:44,921 --> 00:10:47,241 Speaker 4: second month because I wasn't paying one hundred and eighty. 214 00:10:47,041 --> 00:10:48,601 Speaker 1: Dollars a month telephone bill. 215 00:10:49,521 --> 00:10:51,801 Speaker 4: So you know, as much as it's looked upon that 216 00:10:51,881 --> 00:10:54,401 Speaker 4: I was living lavishly, I was living day to day 217 00:10:54,721 --> 00:10:57,481 Speaker 4: hand to mouth because all the money that I had 218 00:10:57,641 --> 00:11:01,721 Speaker 4: was going towards gambling on the whole. And you know, 219 00:11:01,761 --> 00:11:04,921 Speaker 4: there would be times I'd always as a compulsive gambler, 220 00:11:05,041 --> 00:11:07,121 Speaker 4: I'm always under the impression that I can dig myself 221 00:11:07,121 --> 00:11:10,521 Speaker 4: out of any hole, because along with being a compulsive gambler, 222 00:11:10,521 --> 00:11:13,401 Speaker 4: I was a compulsive liar. And I learned how to 223 00:11:13,521 --> 00:11:17,601 Speaker 4: lie to protect myself and to enable myself to be 224 00:11:17,601 --> 00:11:18,721 Speaker 4: able to do these things. 225 00:11:19,361 --> 00:11:21,241 Speaker 1: And you know, I look back at that now and 226 00:11:21,521 --> 00:11:22,601 Speaker 1: I'm ashamed. 227 00:11:22,201 --> 00:11:25,641 Speaker 4: Of some of the behavior that I portrayed, but it 228 00:11:25,681 --> 00:11:27,081 Speaker 4: wasn't a true reflection of me. 229 00:11:27,201 --> 00:11:27,881 Speaker 1: And I know that. 230 00:11:28,041 --> 00:11:30,921 Speaker 4: And there's going to be people that will say that's bollocks, 231 00:11:31,161 --> 00:11:34,361 Speaker 4: and there'll be people that will say good on for 232 00:11:34,401 --> 00:11:37,161 Speaker 4: turning it around. But the reality is, I know in 233 00:11:37,241 --> 00:11:40,401 Speaker 4: myself that that wasn't a true reflection my personality and 234 00:11:40,441 --> 00:11:45,081 Speaker 4: my character. But when this thing gets you, it doesn't 235 00:11:45,081 --> 00:11:47,921 Speaker 4: stop until it takes everything from you. And they talk 236 00:11:47,961 --> 00:11:53,121 Speaker 4: about rock bottoms, and everyone's got a different one, and yeah, 237 00:11:53,161 --> 00:11:54,881 Speaker 4: it can come in any shape. 238 00:11:54,601 --> 00:11:58,641 Speaker 2: Or size, because what you say is correct, because every 239 00:11:58,681 --> 00:12:02,001 Speaker 2: gambler that I've spoken to, or compulsive behaviors, even drugs 240 00:12:02,041 --> 00:12:05,641 Speaker 2: and so forth, there's a gap between a person's values 241 00:12:06,561 --> 00:12:09,321 Speaker 2: and where they found themselves, and they live in this 242 00:12:09,401 --> 00:12:12,601 Speaker 2: limbo in between, which was full of anxiety, shame, and guilt, 243 00:12:13,201 --> 00:12:18,001 Speaker 2: which often prevents them from stopping, and they lose themselves 244 00:12:18,041 --> 00:12:20,361 Speaker 2: in that. You talk about a rock bottom, What was 245 00:12:20,401 --> 00:12:23,841 Speaker 2: your personal rock bottom? 246 00:12:23,921 --> 00:12:26,481 Speaker 4: It's funny because I thought I had plenty before jail, 247 00:12:27,001 --> 00:12:29,561 Speaker 4: and then I went there, and I think ultimately that 248 00:12:29,721 --> 00:12:33,041 Speaker 4: was definitely. Like I remember sitting in the court when 249 00:12:33,041 --> 00:12:36,601 Speaker 4: I got sentenced, and I was so angry that I'd 250 00:12:36,601 --> 00:12:39,801 Speaker 4: been sentenced for so long. I got such a high, 251 00:12:39,841 --> 00:12:43,721 Speaker 4: big sentence. I was fuming, and I remember leaning over 252 00:12:43,761 --> 00:12:46,521 Speaker 4: to my solicter saying to him, you got to lodge 253 00:12:46,521 --> 00:12:49,881 Speaker 4: an appeal, like that's ridiculous. But I remember going back 254 00:12:49,921 --> 00:12:52,721 Speaker 4: because I've already had ten eleven months in jail by 255 00:12:52,761 --> 00:12:55,081 Speaker 4: this time. When I got sentenced, I didn't get any bail. 256 00:12:55,681 --> 00:12:57,761 Speaker 4: I remember going back to the jail that night and 257 00:12:57,801 --> 00:13:00,001 Speaker 4: just sitting there and reflecting on it and just thinking, 258 00:13:00,041 --> 00:13:01,641 Speaker 4: you know what, this is probably a good thing. 259 00:13:01,921 --> 00:13:04,521 Speaker 1: Ultimately, this is probably what I need. 260 00:13:05,801 --> 00:13:07,241 Speaker 3: Because the judge didn't spare you. 261 00:13:07,281 --> 00:13:09,721 Speaker 2: He gave you a good bollocking, a good dressing down 262 00:13:09,721 --> 00:13:11,921 Speaker 2: in his remarks, and he talked about the people that 263 00:13:11,961 --> 00:13:15,281 Speaker 2: you had stolen from their elderly people, in some cases retirees, 264 00:13:15,841 --> 00:13:19,041 Speaker 2: putting their life savings into things, and there was seemed 265 00:13:19,041 --> 00:13:22,561 Speaker 2: to be a very high moral culpability that he wanted 266 00:13:22,561 --> 00:13:23,681 Speaker 2: to communicate to you. 267 00:13:23,961 --> 00:13:25,201 Speaker 3: Did you feel that way. 268 00:13:26,081 --> 00:13:30,201 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think, and look, ultimately, with the 269 00:13:30,201 --> 00:13:32,521 Speaker 4: benefit of hindsight, now I think it was probably the 270 00:13:32,601 --> 00:13:35,321 Speaker 4: right sentence, and I think that it was a just 271 00:13:35,801 --> 00:13:38,161 Speaker 4: outcome for the crime that I committed. 272 00:13:38,641 --> 00:13:40,241 Speaker 1: You know, I don't hide behind the fact that I 273 00:13:40,281 --> 00:13:40,761 Speaker 1: was a gambler. 274 00:13:40,881 --> 00:13:43,521 Speaker 4: But what I did was the wrong thing, and it's 275 00:13:43,601 --> 00:13:47,281 Speaker 4: by law, it's a punishable offense by a criminal court, 276 00:13:47,401 --> 00:13:50,561 Speaker 4: and I deserved what I got in my opinion. You know, 277 00:13:50,961 --> 00:13:54,521 Speaker 4: I speak to people all the time and through gambling 278 00:13:55,081 --> 00:13:57,641 Speaker 4: arenas or whatever it is, and they all say, oh, 279 00:13:57,721 --> 00:13:58,121 Speaker 4: you know, that. 280 00:13:58,161 --> 00:13:59,321 Speaker 1: Sentence was ridiculous. 281 00:13:59,321 --> 00:14:04,001 Speaker 4: But ultimately, you know, I turned people's lives upside down 282 00:14:04,001 --> 00:14:04,681 Speaker 4: with what I did. 283 00:14:05,281 --> 00:14:06,961 Speaker 1: You know, that's something that I've got to live with, 284 00:14:07,961 --> 00:14:09,241 Speaker 1: but they've also got to live with it. 285 00:14:09,281 --> 00:14:13,761 Speaker 4: So you know, there is a moral accountability that's attached 286 00:14:13,761 --> 00:14:15,881 Speaker 4: to that, and you know, I need to be held 287 00:14:15,881 --> 00:14:18,001 Speaker 4: accountable for what I did, and I feel. 288 00:14:17,721 --> 00:14:18,241 Speaker 1: Like I was. 289 00:14:18,801 --> 00:14:20,801 Speaker 2: You know. At the same time, the people who are 290 00:14:20,801 --> 00:14:23,521 Speaker 2: probably along with you for the ride, enjoying that high 291 00:14:23,601 --> 00:14:28,081 Speaker 2: lifestyle that you're enjoying, they all disappear when you're in 292 00:14:28,081 --> 00:14:30,881 Speaker 2: the jail cell on your own and you realize you're 293 00:14:30,921 --> 00:14:34,921 Speaker 2: sort of friendless, and that must be a very difficult 294 00:14:34,961 --> 00:14:39,161 Speaker 2: moment personally, and you're taking stock of your own personality 295 00:14:39,201 --> 00:14:43,041 Speaker 2: and your own choices. That's a moment most people don't face. 296 00:14:43,121 --> 00:14:43,681 Speaker 3: What's that like? 297 00:14:44,801 --> 00:14:48,641 Speaker 1: It's funny, you know, because a lot of people that were. 298 00:14:48,481 --> 00:14:51,561 Speaker 4: Around when I was gambling, I honestly would have thought 299 00:14:51,561 --> 00:14:54,441 Speaker 4: that they would have been quite close friends. And I 300 00:14:54,481 --> 00:14:56,921 Speaker 4: wasn't under the impression that anything I could really do 301 00:14:57,481 --> 00:15:00,041 Speaker 4: would ever deter them from having a friendship with me. 302 00:15:00,801 --> 00:15:03,641 Speaker 4: But I was very wrong about that, and probably eighty 303 00:15:03,681 --> 00:15:05,761 Speaker 4: percent of the people that I was with prior to 304 00:15:05,841 --> 00:15:09,361 Speaker 4: going to jail I no longer am. And there was 305 00:15:09,401 --> 00:15:12,321 Speaker 4: definitely a sense of anger at first. But you know, 306 00:15:12,481 --> 00:15:14,521 Speaker 4: I've had a lot of time to reflect on that stuff, 307 00:15:14,601 --> 00:15:18,481 Speaker 4: obviously from where I was, and I think that to me, 308 00:15:18,681 --> 00:15:22,001 Speaker 4: that's a bonus now to live life without those people 309 00:15:22,601 --> 00:15:25,401 Speaker 4: and to not have them within my circle, if you like, 310 00:15:25,521 --> 00:15:29,441 Speaker 4: because I think certainly it's not that i'd believe that 311 00:15:29,441 --> 00:15:33,281 Speaker 4: they're guilty by association, but certainly they're around when there 312 00:15:33,321 --> 00:15:35,921 Speaker 4: was all the trimmings of what comes with being a 313 00:15:35,961 --> 00:15:39,081 Speaker 4: gambler who wants to spend his money on all sorts 314 00:15:39,121 --> 00:15:41,481 Speaker 4: of different things, you know, and there were people that 315 00:15:41,521 --> 00:15:45,361 Speaker 4: would take advantage of that situation, and you know, they're 316 00:15:45,361 --> 00:15:48,881 Speaker 4: no longer around. And to me, do I look back 317 00:15:48,921 --> 00:15:50,721 Speaker 4: on that and think where are they now? 318 00:15:50,881 --> 00:15:51,041 Speaker 3: No? 319 00:15:51,121 --> 00:15:54,881 Speaker 4: Not really, because I think that they're probably doing it 320 00:15:54,881 --> 00:15:58,241 Speaker 4: to someone else, or they're probably living a life that 321 00:15:59,281 --> 00:16:01,321 Speaker 4: you know, maybe they regret some of it as well, 322 00:16:01,561 --> 00:16:02,881 Speaker 4: i'd hope. 323 00:16:03,801 --> 00:16:07,241 Speaker 2: Well, I'm sure in the Eastern Cumbers of Sydney where 324 00:16:07,241 --> 00:16:09,521 Speaker 2: I also grew up as well, and I understand the 325 00:16:09,561 --> 00:16:12,281 Speaker 2: tribe of people that attach themselves to you, and you 326 00:16:12,321 --> 00:16:14,241 Speaker 2: can back it in that they would have attached themselves 327 00:16:14,281 --> 00:16:17,441 Speaker 2: to somebody else the next hot thing, and it is 328 00:16:17,481 --> 00:16:22,801 Speaker 2: a soulless experience and friendships are very tenuous. In jail, 329 00:16:23,321 --> 00:16:25,601 Speaker 2: you met a different class of people. You went to 330 00:16:25,641 --> 00:16:29,721 Speaker 2: a private school in England, well educated, you know, here 331 00:16:29,761 --> 00:16:31,801 Speaker 2: you're meeting people with no chance in life who were 332 00:16:31,801 --> 00:16:34,241 Speaker 2: in there and this is going to be their life career. Criminals, 333 00:16:34,281 --> 00:16:37,521 Speaker 2: people have made some really dumb mistake. How did that 334 00:16:37,721 --> 00:16:40,641 Speaker 2: impact you and give you, I guess a sense of 335 00:16:41,521 --> 00:16:42,841 Speaker 2: what you'd squandered in a way. 336 00:16:43,921 --> 00:16:49,721 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, jail here is really eye opening. Obviously 337 00:16:50,081 --> 00:16:51,601 Speaker 4: you touched on the fact that I lived in the 338 00:16:51,601 --> 00:16:55,161 Speaker 4: Eastern Suburbs. I lived in a community I guess, which 339 00:16:55,201 --> 00:17:00,281 Speaker 4: is very sheltered and very privileged and very out of 340 00:17:00,321 --> 00:17:02,521 Speaker 4: the I'd almost call. 341 00:17:02,401 --> 00:17:05,801 Speaker 1: It far removed from reality in a hones Stone. 342 00:17:05,441 --> 00:17:07,681 Speaker 4: And when I went in there, you know, I went 343 00:17:07,761 --> 00:17:10,641 Speaker 4: to a number of different jails within New South Wales, 344 00:17:11,721 --> 00:17:14,521 Speaker 4: but I met so many people that have literally had 345 00:17:14,721 --> 00:17:18,721 Speaker 4: the opposite of my lifestyle, the polar opposite. They've had 346 00:17:18,721 --> 00:17:21,481 Speaker 4: no chance since the day that they were born. They've 347 00:17:21,481 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 4: had domestic violence, they've had drug use, they've had alcohol, gambling, 348 00:17:27,120 --> 00:17:31,041 Speaker 4: and they've grown up knowing only one route really, if 349 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,360 Speaker 4: you like, Whereas I didn't, I grew up knowing that 350 00:17:33,481 --> 00:17:35,721 Speaker 4: crime was bad and that I shouldn't do it, and 351 00:17:36,441 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 4: if I do it, you know, this is what the 352 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:42,721 Speaker 4: punishment will be. And I feel like there's so much unknown, 353 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,561 Speaker 4: you know, there's this like people are obsessed with crime 354 00:17:45,681 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 4: shows and documentaries around crime and what it is and 355 00:17:49,521 --> 00:17:50,801 Speaker 4: who commits it and. 356 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 1: Murder shows and all this whatever else. 357 00:17:53,481 --> 00:17:56,801 Speaker 4: But the reality is that the people who are committing 358 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,801 Speaker 4: day to day crimes, if you like, who just keep 359 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 4: returning in and out of. 360 00:18:01,241 --> 00:18:02,961 Speaker 1: The system year in, year out. 361 00:18:03,120 --> 00:18:06,281 Speaker 4: It's really sad stories that we don't hear about out 362 00:18:06,321 --> 00:18:09,481 Speaker 4: here because there's no need for it, you know, there's 363 00:18:09,521 --> 00:18:11,281 Speaker 4: no need for people to hear about it. But I 364 00:18:11,321 --> 00:18:13,521 Speaker 4: think that some of the stuff, like, you know, I 365 00:18:13,761 --> 00:18:17,041 Speaker 4: write letters for people who couldn't write or couldn't read, 366 00:18:17,801 --> 00:18:20,001 Speaker 4: you know, wanted to translate a message across to a 367 00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:22,521 Speaker 4: judge when they were going in for you know, some 368 00:18:22,681 --> 00:18:25,721 Speaker 4: form of crime that they've committed. They'd want to write 369 00:18:25,761 --> 00:18:28,400 Speaker 4: something to the judge, not letting him or her know 370 00:18:29,041 --> 00:18:32,321 Speaker 4: why they should show leniency. And I think there was 371 00:18:33,321 --> 00:18:36,001 Speaker 4: I guess I was just living in this bubble where 372 00:18:36,041 --> 00:18:40,001 Speaker 4: I had no idea of what real society had or 373 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,441 Speaker 4: was going on. And I think that you know, probably 374 00:18:43,481 --> 00:18:45,721 Speaker 4: for me, that was a big wake up call. 375 00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 3: Well it was. 376 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,121 Speaker 2: I guess it was a humbling moment where you could 377 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 2: look at your life to that point and what it 378 00:18:52,281 --> 00:18:54,721 Speaker 2: could be from here on in. And I mean five 379 00:18:54,801 --> 00:18:57,801 Speaker 2: years in jail is no joke, and it's about punishment, 380 00:18:58,001 --> 00:19:01,961 Speaker 2: but it's also about rehabilitation and theory. And you're there 381 00:19:02,001 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 2: a gambling addict. You can still gamble in jail if 382 00:19:04,681 --> 00:19:06,880 Speaker 2: you want to. There's always ways to do that. But 383 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:11,401 Speaker 2: was there any semblance of anything, a program, a person, 384 00:19:11,801 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 2: a moment where you could confront your gambling and start 385 00:19:14,681 --> 00:19:17,201 Speaker 2: to make a plan about what would happen after jail. 386 00:19:18,481 --> 00:19:20,120 Speaker 4: I mean, they ran a couple of things when you 387 00:19:20,201 --> 00:19:23,761 Speaker 4: go into jail, they screen you, so they ask you 388 00:19:23,801 --> 00:19:26,640 Speaker 4: a load of questions and they say, are you addicted 389 00:19:26,681 --> 00:19:30,321 Speaker 4: to anything or whatever? I think it's mainly like they 390 00:19:30,360 --> 00:19:32,721 Speaker 4: ask you whether it's alcohol, drugs. You have to nominate 391 00:19:32,761 --> 00:19:35,281 Speaker 4: gambling if that's something that you've got a problem with, 392 00:19:35,721 --> 00:19:38,921 Speaker 4: and I did, but I think it took like two 393 00:19:38,961 --> 00:19:41,161 Speaker 4: and a half years before I got into a program 394 00:19:41,681 --> 00:19:45,121 Speaker 4: to address anything around addiction. And they do this thing 395 00:19:45,201 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 4: called Equip's Addiction, which is run by a programs officer 396 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 4: in the jail. 397 00:19:50,801 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 1: I mean it's better than nothing. 398 00:19:52,681 --> 00:19:55,041 Speaker 4: But to me, it was verging on a waste of time, 399 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,961 Speaker 4: you know, And a lot of people have to do it. 400 00:19:58,041 --> 00:20:00,160 Speaker 4: They make people do it in order to get certain 401 00:20:00,201 --> 00:20:04,561 Speaker 4: classifications and potentially even get parole or you know, whatever 402 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 4: it may be. So as a compulsive gambler or an alcoholic, 403 00:20:09,681 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 4: you have to sort of volunteer the fact that you 404 00:20:11,521 --> 00:20:14,001 Speaker 4: want to give it up, because otherwise it doesn't work. 405 00:20:14,041 --> 00:20:16,681 Speaker 1: You have to be willing to admit that it's a problem. 406 00:20:17,241 --> 00:20:19,801 Speaker 4: Whereas this is kind of forced upon people who have 407 00:20:20,001 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 4: said at a screening question that they might have drunk 408 00:20:23,561 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 4: too much or taken drugs from time to time. So 409 00:20:26,801 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 4: really that was the only thing that was offered. And 410 00:20:29,201 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 4: gambling's rife in jail in Australia, Like it's everywhere. I 411 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,880 Speaker 4: gambled in jail a lot. What would you gamble on 412 00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:43,281 Speaker 4: the footy, the NRL horses anything, play poker, play cards. 413 00:20:43,481 --> 00:20:45,281 Speaker 4: You probably gamble more in there than you would on 414 00:20:45,321 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 4: the outside, to be fair. It's just that you've got 415 00:20:48,801 --> 00:20:51,801 Speaker 4: to pay whoever it is within the system, you know, 416 00:20:52,041 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 4: or you've got to gamble against one of your fellow 417 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,241 Speaker 4: inmates rather than an app or a bookie. 418 00:20:57,640 --> 00:20:59,321 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's everywhere. 419 00:20:59,041 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 2: Which can be dangerous and frightening. In jail is certainly 420 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,321 Speaker 2: both those things, but it's also incredibly boring too, and 421 00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 2: you've got to pass the time somehow. You're facing this 422 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,041 Speaker 2: five year stretch. How you're feeling each day. 423 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 4: Well, I went in there very heavy and chubby and 424 00:21:15,761 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 4: bloated and a mess from all the drink and the 425 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 4: drugs and the bad food and the gambling. So I 426 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,361 Speaker 4: pretty much said to myself that I definitely wanted to 427 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,241 Speaker 4: fix that up. So that was one of the first 428 00:21:27,281 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 4: things that I did, was fitness and got myself in 429 00:21:30,681 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 4: better shape. But I mean, you can only do that 430 00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:36,281 Speaker 4: to some form of level. It depends what jail you're in, 431 00:21:36,360 --> 00:21:38,481 Speaker 4: but you know, you're locked in a cell a lot 432 00:21:38,521 --> 00:21:41,360 Speaker 4: of the time. It might be from three pm until 433 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:43,481 Speaker 4: eight am the next day, so. 434 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:45,521 Speaker 1: You're very limited in what you can do. 435 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,281 Speaker 4: You're very limited in what you can eat, what you 436 00:21:48,321 --> 00:21:51,120 Speaker 4: get access to you know, you have a certain number 437 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,921 Speaker 4: of TV channels, whatever. But I think that you've got 438 00:21:54,921 --> 00:21:56,640 Speaker 4: to be able to reflect when you're in there, because 439 00:21:56,681 --> 00:21:58,360 Speaker 4: that's a lot of your time is going to be 440 00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 4: spent doing that, you know, especially when you're doing a 441 00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:05,001 Speaker 4: long stretch, because effectively there is nothing else to do. 442 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,201 Speaker 1: You know, you can read. I wanted to study when 443 00:22:08,241 --> 00:22:09,561 Speaker 1: I was in there. I wasn't allowed to. 444 00:22:10,201 --> 00:22:12,360 Speaker 4: That was a big bummer for me because early on 445 00:22:12,441 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 4: in the thing, I've really expressed an interest in looking 446 00:22:15,921 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 4: into doing a psychology degree, but there was no assistance. Yeah, 447 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 4: it was just very They made it harder to do 448 00:22:23,521 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 4: it than not to do it, which, yeah, it's just 449 00:22:26,481 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 4: I think that's a reflection of the system itself. 450 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,321 Speaker 2: Well, the system is there to punish you primarily, and 451 00:22:32,360 --> 00:22:34,441 Speaker 2: that's always been the notion of jail. If you can 452 00:22:34,441 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 2: make it a little bit harder than people liked them 453 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,640 Speaker 2: that that's part of the whole ethos of jail. But 454 00:22:40,281 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 2: as you say, you get that time to reflect, and 455 00:22:43,441 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 2: I guess people can have these demoscene conversions, like bold moments, epiphanies, 456 00:22:47,521 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 2: all that type of stuff. But it's not like that, 457 00:22:50,281 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 2: is it. It's a gradual coming back to yourself and 458 00:22:54,801 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 2: closing that gap between what you'd become and who you 459 00:22:57,681 --> 00:22:58,281 Speaker 2: really were. 460 00:22:58,961 --> 00:22:59,521 Speaker 1: Well, a lot of. 461 00:22:59,441 --> 00:23:02,401 Speaker 4: People love going to jail because they make money in there, 462 00:23:02,521 --> 00:23:06,521 Speaker 4: or it's an opportunity for them. You learn from the 463 00:23:06,561 --> 00:23:08,761 Speaker 4: best in there if you want to become a career criminal. 464 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:10,961 Speaker 1: So there's two aspects of it. 465 00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:13,041 Speaker 4: You can either go in there under the notion that 466 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,321 Speaker 4: you really want to sort yourself out and get something 467 00:23:16,360 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 4: from it, make it a worthwhile exercise, or you're going 468 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 4: in there and you come out worse than you went in. 469 00:23:22,241 --> 00:23:24,360 Speaker 4: And I think that's a part of the reason that 470 00:23:24,441 --> 00:23:27,761 Speaker 4: we see the reoffending rates and the returns into the 471 00:23:27,801 --> 00:23:31,241 Speaker 4: system is because of the lack of stability, or lack 472 00:23:31,281 --> 00:23:33,521 Speaker 4: of programs, or lack of help that there is within 473 00:23:33,561 --> 00:23:35,880 Speaker 4: that system. So you really have to be quite a 474 00:23:35,921 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 4: strong character, I think, to overcome that whilst in there. 475 00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:42,841 Speaker 4: And actually try and do something with your times, especially 476 00:23:42,921 --> 00:23:45,041 Speaker 4: because I understand the people that are in and out 477 00:23:45,041 --> 00:23:47,801 Speaker 4: doing six month stretches, there's not enough time for them 478 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,801 Speaker 4: to do a program or a business degree or whatever 479 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 4: it may be. But then the ones that are in 480 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 4: there longer term, you know, you pretty soon in you 481 00:23:56,281 --> 00:23:58,201 Speaker 4: know that you're looking at a decent sentence. You want 482 00:23:58,201 --> 00:24:00,561 Speaker 4: to try and put some things in place where you're 483 00:24:00,561 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 4: going to get something from that. 484 00:24:01,721 --> 00:24:03,201 Speaker 1: And that was my notion. 485 00:24:03,321 --> 00:24:07,321 Speaker 4: And I knew the punishment fitted the crime, and so 486 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,401 Speaker 4: I knew that it was about me being punished, and 487 00:24:10,521 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 4: you know, that meant going from jail to jail, and 488 00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:15,441 Speaker 4: that meant waiting a certain period of time to get 489 00:24:15,481 --> 00:24:19,321 Speaker 4: certain things. But I was a bit unlucky because obviously 490 00:24:19,321 --> 00:24:22,120 Speaker 4: COVID hit when I was in jail, and that diminished 491 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,001 Speaker 4: any chance of any work release or early release or. 492 00:24:25,001 --> 00:24:25,801 Speaker 1: Anything like that. 493 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 4: So that was all removed from me, which is a 494 00:24:28,921 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 4: normal aspect of prison for most people these days. 495 00:24:32,441 --> 00:24:34,401 Speaker 1: With a decent sized sentence. 496 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 4: That you will get the opportunity to go out to 497 00:24:36,961 --> 00:24:40,281 Speaker 4: the community prior to your release and either work or 498 00:24:40,481 --> 00:24:43,281 Speaker 4: you'll get day release or weekend release, and all of 499 00:24:43,281 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 4: that was removed through COVID, So you know, I took 500 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,441 Speaker 4: a few knocks on the way, and then eventually when 501 00:24:49,441 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 4: I got out, I knew I just had to make 502 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:53,081 Speaker 4: some changes in life. 503 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,881 Speaker 2: Because you went in at thirty four, a good time, Charlie, 504 00:24:56,921 --> 00:24:59,561 Speaker 2: having a great time of it. You hit the sober 505 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 2: reality of Porridge in jail, and you come out nearing forty. 506 00:25:04,201 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 2: The world has changed completely. You're hoping to make changes yourself, 507 00:25:08,521 --> 00:25:10,801 Speaker 2: but when you walk out, you see there's a gambling 508 00:25:10,801 --> 00:25:14,961 Speaker 2: opportunity on every corner. It's in your phone, it is everywhere. 509 00:25:15,441 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 2: How did you confront the hard moment of giving up 510 00:25:19,281 --> 00:25:20,361 Speaker 2: your gambling addiction. 511 00:25:21,761 --> 00:25:25,201 Speaker 4: Yeah, I was really fortunate that when I came out, 512 00:25:25,241 --> 00:25:28,761 Speaker 4: I met someone. That person was in a twelve step 513 00:25:28,801 --> 00:25:34,681 Speaker 4: recovery and recommended that I go to a meeting of 514 00:25:34,721 --> 00:25:40,120 Speaker 4: gamblers anonymous, and I went to a meeting, and if 515 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:41,241 Speaker 4: I'm honest, the first. 516 00:25:41,001 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: One didn't really rock my boat. I wasn't taken with it. 517 00:25:44,321 --> 00:25:46,721 Speaker 4: And I gambled again for a month or two and 518 00:25:47,801 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 4: you know, nothing drastic, but I didn't enjoy it. I 519 00:25:50,961 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 4: didn't enjoy the gambling like I felt this sense of chasing, chasing, chasing, 520 00:25:54,961 --> 00:25:58,801 Speaker 4: which I didn't enjoy, and I wasn't drinking. 521 00:25:58,481 --> 00:26:00,120 Speaker 1: So I was sober as well. 522 00:26:00,241 --> 00:26:03,120 Speaker 4: So I started going to some more meetings and I 523 00:26:03,241 --> 00:26:05,761 Speaker 4: just I started to meet people that have gone through 524 00:26:06,201 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 4: what I was going through and hearing what they've gone 525 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,681 Speaker 4: through and hearing that there was some form of solution, 526 00:26:13,241 --> 00:26:15,961 Speaker 4: and I just decided to give it my best shot. 527 00:26:16,041 --> 00:26:18,001 Speaker 1: And I haven't looked back since. 528 00:26:18,041 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 4: And I think that ultimately there's success within unity and groups. 529 00:26:23,961 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 4: Like when you see someone else tread a path and 530 00:26:26,561 --> 00:26:28,961 Speaker 4: they're successful, you kind of want. 531 00:26:28,721 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 1: What they have. 532 00:26:30,001 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 4: And I think that that's what I've probably got now 533 00:26:33,521 --> 00:26:36,761 Speaker 4: from that. And yeah, it's been a huge, huge help 534 00:26:36,801 --> 00:26:41,041 Speaker 4: to me. But like you say, advertising and gambling, advertising 535 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,521 Speaker 4: and the fact that pubs and clubs and Pokeys and 536 00:26:44,681 --> 00:26:48,321 Speaker 4: every bookie under the sun can advertise, the reality is 537 00:26:48,321 --> 00:26:50,721 Speaker 4: that I don't think that's going anywhere. The Pokeyes aren't 538 00:26:50,761 --> 00:26:54,801 Speaker 4: going anywhere, the bookies aren't going anywhere. Horse racing, greyhounds, 539 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 4: it's not going anywhere. You know, the footy, the sport, whatever, 540 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:02,640 Speaker 4: that's not leaving. So it's up to us as addicts 541 00:27:02,681 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 4: if you like to try and steer clar of it organically. 542 00:27:06,801 --> 00:27:09,881 Speaker 1: Without I disagree with it all the advertising lite. 543 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,361 Speaker 4: I don't think it should be allowed to be put 544 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,321 Speaker 4: in front of our children and kids and the youth 545 00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 4: of today. 546 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,681 Speaker 1: But ultimately they seem to get away with it. 547 00:27:18,961 --> 00:27:23,001 Speaker 4: Nothing's being done on the Murphy recommendations, which is very sad. 548 00:27:23,561 --> 00:27:25,361 Speaker 1: You know, we've just re elected. 549 00:27:24,961 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 4: Alban Easy and I don't really believe that he is 550 00:27:28,281 --> 00:27:32,281 Speaker 4: that interested in making any change to it, which is unfortunate. Again, 551 00:27:32,561 --> 00:27:35,241 Speaker 4: but I don't think that any of them were prior 552 00:27:35,241 --> 00:27:37,360 Speaker 4: to the election, if I'm honest, and I think that 553 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,481 Speaker 4: a lot of them would use it as a potentially 554 00:27:39,521 --> 00:27:41,801 Speaker 4: a sounding board to try and get voters, but I 555 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 4: think ultimately there's too much money coming through it. 556 00:27:44,801 --> 00:27:45,921 Speaker 1: So you've got to work out a. 557 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,200 Speaker 4: Way where you can stay away from this without that 558 00:27:49,681 --> 00:27:52,281 Speaker 4: being reality. And I think that that's what I've had 559 00:27:52,281 --> 00:27:54,041 Speaker 4: to do, and I know plenty of other people that 560 00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:58,001 Speaker 4: do it, and I think that's, you know, the best 561 00:27:58,041 --> 00:27:59,801 Speaker 4: avenue to use at this stage. 562 00:28:00,041 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 2: Because governments have a massive conflict of interest in Australia. 563 00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:05,921 Speaker 2: As much as they'd like to promote responsible gambling messages 564 00:28:05,961 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 2: and so forth, it's inescapable that our budgets rely upon 565 00:28:11,481 --> 00:28:16,801 Speaker 2: gambling taxes and excise, and that industry relies for its 566 00:28:16,801 --> 00:28:20,001 Speaker 2: success on the two or three percent of problem gamblers 567 00:28:20,201 --> 00:28:23,161 Speaker 2: like you, So I can't see how it's ever going 568 00:28:23,201 --> 00:28:26,001 Speaker 2: to change. It's always up to the individuals such as 569 00:28:26,041 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 2: yourself to do that. And as you say, you're always 570 00:28:29,120 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 2: an addict, how do you guard against relapses? Because, like 571 00:28:32,521 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 2: I say, you walk out the door, you can be 572 00:28:34,281 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 2: hit with a dozen gambling messages before you get to 573 00:28:36,120 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 2: the corner. 574 00:28:37,201 --> 00:28:38,441 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. 575 00:28:38,481 --> 00:28:40,841 Speaker 4: And I think I mean for me personally, I just 576 00:28:41,161 --> 00:28:43,321 Speaker 4: do what I've been doing for the last three and 577 00:28:43,321 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 4: a half years, which is I'll concentrate on myself. You know, 578 00:28:47,241 --> 00:28:50,401 Speaker 4: I might try and talk to people wherever possible who 579 00:28:50,401 --> 00:28:52,241 Speaker 4: are going through the same scenario. 580 00:28:51,801 --> 00:28:52,321 Speaker 1: That I was. 581 00:28:52,961 --> 00:28:55,561 Speaker 4: I think that helping people is a huge part of 582 00:28:55,761 --> 00:28:57,361 Speaker 4: recovering oneself. 583 00:28:58,201 --> 00:29:00,481 Speaker 1: Look, I'm very in touch. 584 00:29:00,281 --> 00:29:02,121 Speaker 4: With what they're doing in the UK at the moment 585 00:29:02,161 --> 00:29:05,841 Speaker 4: in terms of around gambling and the legislation, and they're 586 00:29:05,881 --> 00:29:10,521 Speaker 4: doing affordability checks and that's been a huge driver. If 587 00:29:10,521 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 4: someone had come to me when I was in the 588 00:29:12,481 --> 00:29:15,201 Speaker 4: midst of my gambling and said, how are you affording 589 00:29:15,241 --> 00:29:17,681 Speaker 4: to do this? I wouldn't have been able to prove 590 00:29:17,761 --> 00:29:21,361 Speaker 4: my income, and so that avenue of opportunity would have 591 00:29:21,401 --> 00:29:23,601 Speaker 4: been cut off to me. Now, I know there's black 592 00:29:23,641 --> 00:29:27,281 Speaker 4: markets and there's bookies, but it's small changes like that 593 00:29:27,281 --> 00:29:32,401 Speaker 4: that can possibly help just as much as relinquishing advertising 594 00:29:32,481 --> 00:29:35,641 Speaker 4: and things like that. But if you cut off avenues 595 00:29:35,721 --> 00:29:40,481 Speaker 4: for gamblers, it's more likely that they will seek options 596 00:29:40,521 --> 00:29:43,641 Speaker 4: where they could stop gambling. But if everything's open to you, 597 00:29:44,001 --> 00:29:46,321 Speaker 4: and you know, if you can steal money, or you 598 00:29:46,361 --> 00:29:49,121 Speaker 4: can take money from employers, or you can take money 599 00:29:49,161 --> 00:29:52,161 Speaker 4: from your parents, and you can gamble, Like if you're 600 00:29:52,161 --> 00:29:54,241 Speaker 4: a nineteen year old and you take twenty or thirty 601 00:29:54,281 --> 00:29:57,161 Speaker 4: grand off someone, no company's going to ask them where 602 00:29:57,161 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 4: they got that money from. 603 00:29:58,401 --> 00:29:59,761 Speaker 1: They're going to take it. 604 00:30:00,201 --> 00:30:00,401 Speaker 3: Yeah. 605 00:30:00,441 --> 00:30:03,441 Speaker 2: And when I pick up the newspapers every day, almost 606 00:30:03,481 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 2: there's another story about a fraud, an embezzlement, straight out theft, 607 00:30:07,841 --> 00:30:11,521 Speaker 2: people stealing to gamble, and that also doesn't include the 608 00:30:11,561 --> 00:30:14,401 Speaker 2: amount of money that's stolen from families. It's never reported. 609 00:30:14,921 --> 00:30:17,521 Speaker 2: So you've had a chance to see the extent of 610 00:30:17,561 --> 00:30:19,881 Speaker 2: this problem. And I don't think it's getting any better. 611 00:30:20,481 --> 00:30:21,641 Speaker 1: No, And I think. 612 00:30:21,481 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 4: That you hit the nail on the head Gambling is 613 00:30:25,881 --> 00:30:29,521 Speaker 4: a disease, and the feeling that it gives you is 614 00:30:29,561 --> 00:30:33,201 Speaker 4: a drug. It's just the same as taking drugs. There 615 00:30:33,281 --> 00:30:36,161 Speaker 4: is a rush like no other when you're doing it, 616 00:30:36,641 --> 00:30:39,321 Speaker 4: and so for an addict, if he has to steal 617 00:30:39,321 --> 00:30:41,361 Speaker 4: money to do it or she has to steal money 618 00:30:41,361 --> 00:30:44,161 Speaker 4: to do it, they will do that, just like a 619 00:30:44,281 --> 00:30:47,241 Speaker 4: drug addict will take money to go and score drugs. 620 00:30:47,601 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 4: It's the same thing, but it's not universally recognized as. 621 00:30:51,281 --> 00:30:54,681 Speaker 1: A problem, and that is the problem. The problem sits 622 00:30:54,681 --> 00:30:58,041 Speaker 1: within the problem. 623 00:30:58,201 --> 00:31:01,521 Speaker 2: And yet when people come for sentencing, there is no 624 00:31:01,601 --> 00:31:05,441 Speaker 2: mitigation for a gambling addiction the way that you might 625 00:31:05,521 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 2: have for other forms of addiction, including drugs. You're getting 626 00:31:09,361 --> 00:31:14,201 Speaker 2: the highest possible sentence, and the media often portrays these 627 00:31:14,281 --> 00:31:18,761 Speaker 2: gambling criminals, if you like, as losers, as the exception, 628 00:31:19,281 --> 00:31:22,441 Speaker 2: the people who didn't have the moral fiber, couldn't take 629 00:31:22,481 --> 00:31:25,321 Speaker 2: the heat, didn't have the courage, whatever it is. So 630 00:31:25,921 --> 00:31:29,841 Speaker 2: while we have that attitude that stokes the problem with gambling, 631 00:31:29,841 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 2: in my opinion, that we're not addressing the fact that 632 00:31:33,361 --> 00:31:34,601 Speaker 2: you're not a career criminal. 633 00:31:34,921 --> 00:31:35,961 Speaker 3: You never set out. 634 00:31:35,801 --> 00:31:38,121 Speaker 2: To do this, but it was your addiction that drove 635 00:31:38,201 --> 00:31:40,161 Speaker 2: you in a place and I love the fact that 636 00:31:40,201 --> 00:31:44,441 Speaker 2: you're not ashamed to admit what you did and take responsibility. 637 00:31:44,801 --> 00:31:47,801 Speaker 2: But there needs to be, in my opinion, some mitigation 638 00:31:48,001 --> 00:31:49,961 Speaker 2: given to people like you and sentencing. 639 00:31:50,801 --> 00:31:52,641 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, look, I had two guys I know 640 00:31:53,201 --> 00:31:54,601 Speaker 4: and have had a bit to do with in the 641 00:31:54,681 --> 00:31:57,841 Speaker 4: last couple of years, have both been sentenced for similar 642 00:31:57,881 --> 00:32:01,001 Speaker 4: crimes to mine, And when there were sentences, I was just, honestly, 643 00:32:01,041 --> 00:32:04,041 Speaker 4: I was fabergasted by the sentences that they received. I 644 00:32:04,121 --> 00:32:08,921 Speaker 4: was just I'm dumbfounded because their cases pointed towards the 645 00:32:08,961 --> 00:32:13,241 Speaker 4: gambling side of things, probably way more than minded. They 646 00:32:13,281 --> 00:32:16,361 Speaker 4: both received quite similar sentences to me, and I thought, 647 00:32:16,721 --> 00:32:20,401 Speaker 4: how can a judge honestly looking at the facts of 648 00:32:20,441 --> 00:32:23,281 Speaker 4: where this person spent their money and gambled their money. 649 00:32:23,601 --> 00:32:25,841 Speaker 4: How can he honestly sit there and say that this 650 00:32:25,961 --> 00:32:28,481 Speaker 4: is not a problem. I just can't get my head 651 00:32:28,521 --> 00:32:31,681 Speaker 4: around it. I cannot fathom how they can come to 652 00:32:31,721 --> 00:32:33,801 Speaker 4: that decision consciously. 653 00:32:34,241 --> 00:32:35,641 Speaker 1: You know, it just doesn't make sense to me. 654 00:32:36,361 --> 00:32:39,001 Speaker 4: You know, if someone was high on drugs and went 655 00:32:39,041 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 4: and robbed a house, there's mitigating factors there because they 656 00:32:42,241 --> 00:32:42,921 Speaker 4: wouldn't do it. 657 00:32:42,961 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: Potentially in their right mind or in a sober state. 658 00:32:46,201 --> 00:32:49,121 Speaker 4: So what's the difference seeing a gambler taking money from 659 00:32:49,161 --> 00:32:53,441 Speaker 4: his employer to gamble with or someone stealing who's high 660 00:32:53,441 --> 00:32:54,001 Speaker 4: on drugs. 661 00:32:54,601 --> 00:32:56,601 Speaker 1: To me, there's no difference there whatsoever. 662 00:32:57,161 --> 00:33:00,881 Speaker 2: Well, I totally agree. And one thing that I've noticed 663 00:33:00,881 --> 00:33:03,001 Speaker 2: about gamblers, I mean, I guess drug x as well, 664 00:33:03,281 --> 00:33:07,561 Speaker 2: is that it's very isolating. People spend all their time 665 00:33:07,721 --> 00:33:10,801 Speaker 2: feeding this addiction. One psychologist in Canada I've spoken, he 666 00:33:10,841 --> 00:33:14,361 Speaker 2: talks about feeding the baby tiger. At the beginning, it's fun, 667 00:33:14,401 --> 00:33:17,121 Speaker 2: it's cute, and it's novel, but it gets bigger and 668 00:33:17,121 --> 00:33:19,241 Speaker 2: bigger and bigger, and it takes up all your time 669 00:33:19,281 --> 00:33:22,761 Speaker 2: feeding this ravenous tiger. And by the end you've exhausted, 670 00:33:23,041 --> 00:33:26,481 Speaker 2: you isolated from your family, there's nowhere to go. And 671 00:33:26,761 --> 00:33:31,601 Speaker 2: often gamblers end up bankrupt, in jail or dead by 672 00:33:31,601 --> 00:33:34,281 Speaker 2: their own hand. And we're seeing an epidemic of male 673 00:33:34,361 --> 00:33:36,761 Speaker 2: suicides in this country, and I would hazard a guess 674 00:33:37,281 --> 00:33:39,401 Speaker 2: that quite a bit of it is related to these 675 00:33:39,441 --> 00:33:40,081 Speaker 2: sorts of issues. 676 00:33:41,001 --> 00:33:44,681 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think suicide is just at an 677 00:33:44,681 --> 00:33:47,801 Speaker 4: all time high around the world, but here in Australia. 678 00:33:47,841 --> 00:33:50,601 Speaker 4: I know, I was looking up some statistics of it 679 00:33:50,601 --> 00:33:54,641 Speaker 4: the other day just through pure interest, and I think 680 00:33:54,681 --> 00:33:58,121 Speaker 4: there was something like thirty eight hundred suicide deaths last year. 681 00:33:59,041 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 1: And I think I mentioned to. 682 00:34:00,321 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 4: You that I really despise the way that the media 683 00:34:03,481 --> 00:34:07,321 Speaker 4: talk about suicide or they don't talk about it. If 684 00:34:07,321 --> 00:34:10,841 Speaker 4: someone commits suicide, you basically are playing a guessing game, 685 00:34:10,881 --> 00:34:13,321 Speaker 4: reading the article until the very bottom where it says 686 00:34:13,361 --> 00:34:16,401 Speaker 4: cool lifeline if you've found this disturbing, or if you've 687 00:34:16,681 --> 00:34:19,601 Speaker 4: know someone that's going through this. And I find that 688 00:34:19,681 --> 00:34:23,361 Speaker 4: this is about awareness. Unless people know about it, this 689 00:34:23,401 --> 00:34:27,281 Speaker 4: is where the problem is. And suicide is a byproduct 690 00:34:27,561 --> 00:34:30,321 Speaker 4: of someone losing all their money and finding no avenue 691 00:34:30,761 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 4: or being cornered into a situation that they can't get 692 00:34:33,481 --> 00:34:36,281 Speaker 4: out of, and so there's only one way out, and 693 00:34:36,321 --> 00:34:40,921 Speaker 4: it's the gates of prison or a mental asylum or death, 694 00:34:41,321 --> 00:34:44,481 Speaker 4: and death is brought about by suicide. And you know, 695 00:34:44,481 --> 00:34:49,361 Speaker 4: I've lost a family member through suicide. I also know 696 00:34:50,161 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 4: multiple people that have committed suicide, and it never gets 697 00:34:54,521 --> 00:34:57,201 Speaker 4: any easier to hear about it. But I do feel 698 00:34:57,201 --> 00:35:00,601 Speaker 4: like there's a major problem with people not willing to 699 00:35:00,641 --> 00:35:03,121 Speaker 4: talk about it and not willing to advertise the fact 700 00:35:03,121 --> 00:35:06,001 Speaker 4: that this has happened because of something. You know, I 701 00:35:06,041 --> 00:35:10,681 Speaker 4: lived near a notorious suicide spot in Sydney, and you know, 702 00:35:10,721 --> 00:35:12,721 Speaker 4: I see the cop cars coming up and down here 703 00:35:12,761 --> 00:35:15,681 Speaker 4: looking for bodies all the time. It never gets any 704 00:35:15,681 --> 00:35:18,361 Speaker 4: easier to see, but it just doesn't surprise me. And 705 00:35:18,401 --> 00:35:21,241 Speaker 4: I've bumped into people. I bumped into a guy back 706 00:35:21,281 --> 00:35:24,241 Speaker 4: in February. He was going to jump, and you know, 707 00:35:24,281 --> 00:35:26,161 Speaker 4: I sat there and chatted to him for about twenty 708 00:35:26,241 --> 00:35:29,761 Speaker 4: minutes and I called the police and it turned out 709 00:35:29,801 --> 00:35:31,881 Speaker 4: he tried to do it the previous two days as well, 710 00:35:31,881 --> 00:35:35,201 Speaker 4: and he'd been seen on some cameras and you know, 711 00:35:35,281 --> 00:35:40,561 Speaker 4: I never saw him again. But that's just another example of, like, 712 00:35:40,881 --> 00:35:43,601 Speaker 4: we don't know what people are going through behind closed doors, 713 00:35:44,161 --> 00:35:46,721 Speaker 4: but if they read an article that can help them 714 00:35:46,801 --> 00:35:48,921 Speaker 4: understand about some of these things, there's a good chance 715 00:35:48,961 --> 00:35:50,281 Speaker 4: that that might carry some weight. 716 00:35:51,001 --> 00:35:53,881 Speaker 2: Because you've been in that dark place between your own 717 00:35:53,921 --> 00:35:57,321 Speaker 2: perception of yourself and your values and what you've become 718 00:35:57,841 --> 00:36:01,281 Speaker 2: a lot of people find that reflection awful, and you 719 00:36:01,361 --> 00:36:03,561 Speaker 2: did some terrible things, you admitted to it. Did you 720 00:36:03,601 --> 00:36:06,681 Speaker 2: ever get to that dark place where ending it all 721 00:36:06,961 --> 00:36:08,801 Speaker 2: seemed a convenient way out. 722 00:36:09,881 --> 00:36:14,201 Speaker 4: Yeah, yep, you know, certainly the first couple of days 723 00:36:14,241 --> 00:36:17,401 Speaker 4: in Surrey Hill's lock up and I got arrested initially, 724 00:36:18,401 --> 00:36:20,761 Speaker 4: and then you know, after I got sentenced, I was like, 725 00:36:21,041 --> 00:36:23,161 Speaker 4: I've got so long to go. I don't know if 726 00:36:23,201 --> 00:36:25,841 Speaker 4: I really want to do this. I'm not going to 727 00:36:25,921 --> 00:36:29,561 Speaker 4: have anything when I get out. But my family, you know, 728 00:36:29,721 --> 00:36:32,321 Speaker 4: I hurt them so much, and that would have been 729 00:36:32,441 --> 00:36:36,121 Speaker 4: the icing on the cake to do that. And I, 730 00:36:36,201 --> 00:36:40,361 Speaker 4: you know, I owe my family everything because they stood 731 00:36:40,401 --> 00:36:43,761 Speaker 4: by me. They didn't have to, and I can assure 732 00:36:43,761 --> 00:36:45,961 Speaker 4: you I wouldn't have blamed them if they didn't. 733 00:36:46,881 --> 00:36:50,321 Speaker 1: But ultimately, my relationship with them has never ever been better. 734 00:36:50,401 --> 00:36:52,321 Speaker 4: And I look back and think of some of those 735 00:36:52,361 --> 00:36:54,761 Speaker 4: thoughts that I had when I was thinking about doing 736 00:36:54,801 --> 00:36:58,881 Speaker 4: the worst thing, and I'm just really grateful that I 737 00:36:58,961 --> 00:37:02,521 Speaker 4: came to my senses, because I told you the other day, 738 00:37:02,561 --> 00:37:05,121 Speaker 4: I lost a friend earlier this year to suicide, and 739 00:37:05,761 --> 00:37:08,881 Speaker 4: ultimately I wasn't that surprised by it. But also what 740 00:37:09,001 --> 00:37:14,401 Speaker 4: it leaves behind is absolute and utter carnage, and I 741 00:37:14,521 --> 00:37:17,881 Speaker 4: just don't believe that that's a good way to leave 742 00:37:17,921 --> 00:37:18,521 Speaker 4: a legacy. 743 00:37:20,321 --> 00:37:23,561 Speaker 2: That's right and you're now in your early forties, you've 744 00:37:23,561 --> 00:37:24,801 Speaker 2: come out the other side of this. 745 00:37:25,641 --> 00:37:26,321 Speaker 3: How does life look? 746 00:37:26,321 --> 00:37:28,201 Speaker 2: Because I reckon, he's still a young man, because like 747 00:37:28,241 --> 00:37:30,801 Speaker 2: I'm sixty two, so everyone's young in their forties. How 748 00:37:30,801 --> 00:37:32,881 Speaker 2: do you see the future from here that you may 749 00:37:32,921 --> 00:37:33,961 Speaker 2: not have been able to see before? 750 00:37:34,801 --> 00:37:38,761 Speaker 4: Yeah, I consider myself still quite young because I'm an 751 00:37:38,761 --> 00:37:42,441 Speaker 4: immature baby, if you like, who's only just started working 752 00:37:42,441 --> 00:37:45,561 Speaker 4: out how to live life properly on the right side 753 00:37:45,601 --> 00:37:48,521 Speaker 4: of life. I guess you know. I lead a very 754 00:37:48,561 --> 00:37:52,481 Speaker 4: simple life these days. I have a very beautiful partner 755 00:37:52,921 --> 00:37:56,561 Speaker 4: who understands and respects a lot of what I've been 756 00:37:56,601 --> 00:37:58,321 Speaker 4: through and a lot of what I've done. 757 00:37:59,641 --> 00:38:02,641 Speaker 1: And yeah, I lead a very healthy lifestyle. I don't drink, 758 00:38:02,801 --> 00:38:03,401 Speaker 1: I don't. 759 00:38:03,161 --> 00:38:07,841 Speaker 4: Gamble anymore, and I've started to appreciate life for what 760 00:38:07,881 --> 00:38:10,401 Speaker 4: it is. I mean, I came to Australia and I 761 00:38:10,401 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 4: did the opposite of what the real culture is here, 762 00:38:13,281 --> 00:38:16,241 Speaker 4: especially where I live, which is fitness and good eating 763 00:38:16,321 --> 00:38:18,441 Speaker 4: and all that sort of stuff. I did the opposite 764 00:38:18,481 --> 00:38:21,001 Speaker 4: of that for the first five years that I was here, 765 00:38:21,561 --> 00:38:23,361 Speaker 4: and so now I'm out the backside of it and 766 00:38:23,441 --> 00:38:26,401 Speaker 4: doing I guess what a lot of other people in 767 00:38:26,401 --> 00:38:29,241 Speaker 4: this area would do and stay fit, and I think 768 00:38:30,041 --> 00:38:32,561 Speaker 4: I'm about to come to the end of my sentence 769 00:38:32,601 --> 00:38:36,321 Speaker 4: in totality, So I'm looking forward to that because my 770 00:38:36,361 --> 00:38:38,521 Speaker 4: travel's obviously been limited because of it. You know, I 771 00:38:38,561 --> 00:38:40,361 Speaker 4: haven't been able to see my family as much as 772 00:38:40,401 --> 00:38:42,841 Speaker 4: i'd want to. So a lot of that is things 773 00:38:42,921 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 4: that I'm looking forward to doing and that life's about 774 00:38:45,521 --> 00:38:46,561 Speaker 4: to hopefully afford me. 775 00:38:47,041 --> 00:38:51,321 Speaker 2: Sure, unlucky in gambling, lucky in life. Ultimately, it's an 776 00:38:51,361 --> 00:38:54,721 Speaker 2: amazing story. And I'm sure there are people listening here 777 00:38:54,841 --> 00:38:58,241 Speaker 2: right now who are confronting exactly the same issues that 778 00:38:58,321 --> 00:39:01,281 Speaker 2: you confronted, and they're doing it in silence. They're doing 779 00:39:01,281 --> 00:39:05,681 Speaker 2: it and they're concealing things, they're contemplating how to feed 780 00:39:05,721 --> 00:39:10,761 Speaker 2: the gambling addiction. What would be your message if you 781 00:39:10,801 --> 00:39:12,161 Speaker 2: could speak straight to their hearts. 782 00:39:13,281 --> 00:39:17,361 Speaker 4: I think I'd just say, look, I think twice, because 783 00:39:18,081 --> 00:39:20,561 Speaker 4: whatever you do now, you won't be able to take back. 784 00:39:21,881 --> 00:39:24,121 Speaker 4: And I can assure you that the other side is 785 00:39:24,161 --> 00:39:27,161 Speaker 4: not where you want to be. And I think that 786 00:39:27,801 --> 00:39:31,001 Speaker 4: you know, if it's gambling that's an issue, there's avenues 787 00:39:31,041 --> 00:39:34,761 Speaker 4: of help. There's plenty of avenues you know, pick up 788 00:39:34,761 --> 00:39:35,441 Speaker 4: the phone. 789 00:39:36,001 --> 00:39:37,321 Speaker 1: And I don't think there's enough of this. 790 00:39:37,481 --> 00:39:40,561 Speaker 4: I know that us as blokes, especially like we never 791 00:39:40,641 --> 00:39:43,961 Speaker 4: talk about our problems with each other. And you know, 792 00:39:44,001 --> 00:39:46,161 Speaker 4: I know there's a number of mental health charities that 793 00:39:46,201 --> 00:39:49,481 Speaker 4: are very helpful and I really am a massive advocate 794 00:39:49,521 --> 00:39:53,441 Speaker 4: for that because I've seen the power of one person 795 00:39:53,561 --> 00:39:56,121 Speaker 4: picking up the phone to another work on so many 796 00:39:56,121 --> 00:39:59,761 Speaker 4: different occasions that I would just say, before you're going 797 00:39:59,841 --> 00:40:02,881 Speaker 4: to do anything's really stupid, pick up the phone first 798 00:40:02,881 --> 00:40:04,401 Speaker 4: and speak to someone, and if. 799 00:40:04,281 --> 00:40:06,081 Speaker 1: You still want to go and do it after that, 800 00:40:06,481 --> 00:40:07,561 Speaker 1: you know, we can't stop you. 801 00:40:07,681 --> 00:40:10,641 Speaker 4: But you know, I think if it's going to be 802 00:40:10,681 --> 00:40:13,321 Speaker 4: the wrong thing that you're going to do, live with 803 00:40:13,361 --> 00:40:15,521 Speaker 4: the consequences of what you're going to do, because they 804 00:40:15,561 --> 00:40:18,041 Speaker 4: will come. You know, we don't go through life with 805 00:40:18,121 --> 00:40:21,201 Speaker 4: no consequences. Eventually it catches up with us. And you 806 00:40:21,241 --> 00:40:22,041 Speaker 4: know it did for me. 807 00:40:23,161 --> 00:40:26,321 Speaker 1: It was the making of me, but that might not 808 00:40:26,441 --> 00:40:27,481 Speaker 1: be the case for everyone. 809 00:40:28,481 --> 00:40:30,801 Speaker 2: Ed. I really appreciate you sharing your story today. It's 810 00:40:30,801 --> 00:40:33,521 Speaker 2: taken a fee bit of courage and also some courage 811 00:40:33,561 --> 00:40:36,361 Speaker 2: to admit your mistakes and move beyond them. 812 00:40:36,441 --> 00:40:38,441 Speaker 3: I wish you all the success in life. Thank you 813 00:40:38,481 --> 00:40:39,161 Speaker 3: so much for your time. 814 00:40:39,681 --> 00:40:41,441 Speaker 1: Thanks Adam, it's been an absolute pleasure. 815 00:40:41,521 --> 00:40:45,081 Speaker 4: And yeah, I was really overjoyed to be coming on this, 816 00:40:45,201 --> 00:40:46,321 Speaker 4: so thanks very much for having me. 817 00:40:48,281 --> 00:40:50,681 Speaker 3: That was Ed Toller. He's learned a very hard lesson. 818 00:40:50,721 --> 00:40:52,801 Speaker 2: They fall from a very high place to a very 819 00:40:52,841 --> 00:40:55,601 Speaker 2: low place, and it's something that a lot of families, 820 00:40:55,601 --> 00:40:58,641 Speaker 2: a lot of individuals are contemplating. In Australia. We are 821 00:40:58,681 --> 00:41:01,681 Speaker 2: in the grip of a severe epidemic effort. If you 822 00:41:01,801 --> 00:41:06,521 Speaker 2: have seen yourself in the story we've told, I want 823 00:41:06,521 --> 00:41:08,440 Speaker 2: you to look in the description on this podcast. You'll 824 00:41:08,481 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 2: see some lines from the places you can get help. 825 00:41:11,921 --> 00:41:12,281 Speaker 3: Do it. 826 00:41:12,801 --> 00:41:17,001 Speaker 2: Don't miss out because your life is your life. Don't 827 00:41:17,081 --> 00:41:19,641 Speaker 2: let it be destroyed by your addiction. Face up to 828 00:41:19,681 --> 00:41:23,681 Speaker 2: what you're doing and try to make amends because take 829 00:41:23,721 --> 00:41:26,521 Speaker 2: it from Ed, five years in jail is a hard 830 00:41:26,561 --> 00:41:28,961 Speaker 2: way to learn those lessons. This has been a real 831 00:41:29,001 --> 00:41:31,001 Speaker 2: crime with Adam Shanned. Thank you for listening.