1 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:07,350 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Business Interview. Today, 2 00:00:07,380 --> 00:00:11,789 Sean Aylmer: ACS is unveiling its Digital Pulse report prepared by Deloitte 3 00:00:11,789 --> 00:00:16,019 Sean Aylmer: Access Economics on the state of the technology industry. ACS 4 00:00:16,020 --> 00:00:19,950 Sean Aylmer: is the peak body representing over 47, 000 tech professionals 5 00:00:19,950 --> 00:00:23,939 Sean Aylmer: in Australia. The report says that AI, artificial intelligence, is 6 00:00:23,940 --> 00:00:28,259 Sean Aylmer: going to supercharge the skills crisis in Australia. A staggering 7 00:00:28,290 --> 00:00:33,240 Sean Aylmer: 95% of the Australian workforce needs re- skilling as technologies, 8 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:37,439 Sean Aylmer: particularly artificial intelligence, are poised to profoundly reshape their roles. 9 00:00:37,710 --> 00:00:40,860 Sean Aylmer: Siobhan Casey, Head of Growth at ACS is with us 10 00:00:40,860 --> 00:00:43,350 Sean Aylmer: this morning. Siobhan, thanks for coming onto the show. 11 00:00:43,650 --> 00:00:45,030 Siobhan Casey: Thanks, Sean. Thanks, and good to be here. 12 00:00:45,540 --> 00:00:48,870 Sean Aylmer: The report's pretty sobering. Now, before we delve into AI 13 00:00:48,870 --> 00:00:51,809 Sean Aylmer: specifically, what does the report say generally about the tech 14 00:00:51,809 --> 00:00:53,639 Sean Aylmer: sector and the skills crisis? 15 00:00:54,510 --> 00:00:59,220 Siobhan Casey: Well, it's fairly compelling. So the headline number is 928,000 16 00:00:59,220 --> 00:01:01,740 Siobhan Casey: Australians now work in technology, which is a 6. 2% 17 00:01:02,070 --> 00:01:05,578 Siobhan Casey: jump on last year. Interestingly, this is our ninth Digital 18 00:01:05,580 --> 00:01:10,949 Siobhan Casey: Pulse and in 2015 we noted about just over 600, 000 Australians working 19 00:01:10,949 --> 00:01:13,020 Siobhan Casey: in tech. So it's continuing to grow at quite a 20 00:01:13,049 --> 00:01:15,780 Siobhan Casey: fast rate. By 2024, we project it to be over 21 00:01:15,780 --> 00:01:19,080 Siobhan Casey: 1 million and it continue to 1.2 over the next five years. 22 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,199 Siobhan Casey: Some of the critical things, and I think you talked 23 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,259 Siobhan Casey: about it in your opening there, Sean, about the artificial 24 00:01:25,259 --> 00:01:28,529 Siobhan Casey: intelligence and generative AI, I think that that's probably something 25 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,649 Siobhan Casey: we should really unpack and what the report does unpack 26 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,800 Siobhan Casey: and if you just think about the absolute scale of 27 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,110 Siobhan Casey: the adoption of tech, and one of the ways that 28 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:38,819 Siobhan Casey: we do that in the industry is to talk about 29 00:01:38,819 --> 00:01:41,309 Siobhan Casey: the benchmark of how long it takes a new technology 30 00:01:41,309 --> 00:01:45,000 Siobhan Casey: to reach 100 million users. So some household names, Netflix, 31 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,639 Siobhan Casey: 10 years, Facebook, four and a half years, TikTok, nine 32 00:01:47,639 --> 00:01:53,070 Siobhan Casey: months, ChatGPT took 60 days. So that rapid pace coupled 33 00:01:53,070 --> 00:01:56,309 Siobhan Casey: with already a tech skill shortage is proving to be 34 00:01:56,309 --> 00:01:58,860 Siobhan Casey: quite a challenge for Australia and globally. 35 00:01:59,849 --> 00:02:03,000 Sean Aylmer: Okay, so a simple question, Siobhan, how do we fix 36 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:03,900 Sean Aylmer: it? What do we do? 37 00:02:04,260 --> 00:02:08,100 Siobhan Casey: Oh, well, we wave a magic wand. No, look, there's 38 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:10,680 Siobhan Casey: a number of things. It's quite profound. So some of 39 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,860 Siobhan Casey: the evidence shows that the shortage in critical technologies will 40 00:02:13,860 --> 00:02:17,640 Siobhan Casey: impact 95% of the workforce, and we've got two competing 41 00:02:17,669 --> 00:02:21,150 Siobhan Casey: challenges. There is a need for about 60,000 new tech 42 00:02:21,150 --> 00:02:24,269 Siobhan Casey: workers a year, but how do you create that talent? 43 00:02:24,270 --> 00:02:27,120 Siobhan Casey: So 4% of girls currently have an interest in pursuing a 44 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,779 Siobhan Casey: STEM career compared to 16% of boys. We're only creating 45 00:02:30,780 --> 00:02:34,469 Siobhan Casey: about 10,000 domestic graduates a year, and that was based 46 00:02:34,469 --> 00:02:39,839 Siobhan Casey: on 2019 data. VET sector or the TAFE sector, vocational training rates remain low, 47 00:02:39,900 --> 00:02:43,320 Siobhan Casey: they were higher in 2016. We're producing about 60,000 students 48 00:02:43,350 --> 00:02:46,770 Siobhan Casey: through that vehicle, and the imbalance is just creating a 49 00:02:46,770 --> 00:02:49,919 Siobhan Casey: big issue. And in balance with that, we also have 50 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,400 Siobhan Casey: evidence that those that are graduating don't even have the 51 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,700 Siobhan Casey: right skills at hand today. So only 3% of tech 52 00:02:56,700 --> 00:03:00,179 Siobhan Casey: employees believe their IT graduates are job ready. So we've 53 00:03:00,180 --> 00:03:02,820 Siobhan Casey: got not enough coming in and those that are graduating 54 00:03:02,850 --> 00:03:06,060 Siobhan Casey: aren't job ready and ready to get on the tools. 55 00:03:06,419 --> 00:03:09,690 Siobhan Casey: And then you also have obviously a rapidly expanding and 56 00:03:09,690 --> 00:03:14,160 Siobhan Casey: scaling tech environment. It's not really a tech skills gap 57 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,771 Siobhan Casey: anymore. It's a tech skills conundrum in our opinion. 58 00:03:16,770 --> 00:03:20,940 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Now, I have a bit of a conflict in this 59 00:03:20,940 --> 00:03:22,950 Sean Aylmer: because I do have an interest in a cyber training 60 00:03:22,950 --> 00:03:25,440 Sean Aylmer: business, so I'm just letting our listeners know that upfront. 61 00:03:25,950 --> 00:03:28,530 Sean Aylmer: What is the training that's needed though? You talk about 62 00:03:28,530 --> 00:03:31,469 Sean Aylmer: TAFE and universities offer courses and then there are private 63 00:03:31,469 --> 00:03:35,579 Sean Aylmer: businesses that offer training and certifications and all that, but 64 00:03:36,029 --> 00:03:39,390 Sean Aylmer: it's not particularly... If you want to be a lawyer, 65 00:03:39,420 --> 00:03:41,220 Sean Aylmer: you know exactly the path you've got to follow. 66 00:03:41,310 --> 00:03:42,090 Siobhan Casey: Absolutely. 67 00:03:42,150 --> 00:03:43,530 Sean Aylmer: It's just not the case in tech. 68 00:03:44,190 --> 00:03:47,520 Siobhan Casey: No. Look, we've done some great work already in collaboration 69 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:51,870 Siobhan Casey: with the New South Wales Skills Department and that's what's 70 00:03:51,870 --> 00:03:54,840 Siobhan Casey: required. We do need to work collaboratively, industry, government, educators, 71 00:03:55,170 --> 00:03:58,950 Siobhan Casey: because we still have a very strong prevalence or requirement. 72 00:03:58,950 --> 00:04:01,560 Siobhan Casey: When you look at the job ads today, 97% ask 73 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,740 Siobhan Casey: for a bachelor's of IT, but we'd need to look 74 00:04:04,740 --> 00:04:07,349 Siobhan Casey: at what's working in that space and potentially what could 75 00:04:07,349 --> 00:04:10,109 Siobhan Casey: work in the VET sector. Or micro- credentials, cyber, for 76 00:04:10,109 --> 00:04:13,320 Siobhan Casey: instance, as you've referred to, the challenge is we aren't 77 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:15,840 Siobhan Casey: at a level yet to understand skills at a micro 78 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,110 Siobhan Casey: level. We still train and recruit and focus our industry 79 00:04:19,110 --> 00:04:21,599 Siobhan Casey: around jobs. And I think that's where we've got to 80 00:04:21,599 --> 00:04:24,568 Siobhan Casey: start moving forward to a different framework, a skills first 81 00:04:24,570 --> 00:04:28,020 Siobhan Casey: framework, which is what we advocate for in this report. 82 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,410 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So if you're talking about generative AI, what are the 83 00:04:31,410 --> 00:04:36,150 Sean Aylmer: skills that people need in generative AI? And I know 84 00:04:36,150 --> 00:04:39,210 Sean Aylmer: that's a bit of an unfair question because that area 85 00:04:39,210 --> 00:04:43,589 Sean Aylmer: is changing so quickly as well, but at the moment, 86 00:04:44,130 --> 00:04:47,789 Sean Aylmer: what would one of those hundreds of companies now trying 87 00:04:47,789 --> 00:04:51,299 Sean Aylmer: to use ChatGPT or something, what is it that they're looking for? 88 00:04:51,779 --> 00:04:54,180 Siobhan Casey: Well, let's just maybe put it in context. So I 89 00:04:54,180 --> 00:04:58,050 Siobhan Casey: talked before about the rapid use and experience with ChatGPT 90 00:04:58,050 --> 00:05:00,750 Siobhan Casey: or generative AI. What the evidence shows us is that 91 00:05:00,750 --> 00:05:05,070 Siobhan Casey: is generally by digital natives. So the younger students in 92 00:05:05,070 --> 00:05:08,849 Siobhan Casey: school, et cetera, and to a lesser extent employers. And 93 00:05:08,850 --> 00:05:10,860 Siobhan Casey: what we're seeing is students are using it for study 94 00:05:10,860 --> 00:05:13,170 Siobhan Casey: and school and then what they're going to be doing 95 00:05:13,170 --> 00:05:16,200 Siobhan Casey: in the coming years is entering the workforce and driving 96 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,589 Siobhan Casey: an expectation of employers to be using it well and 97 00:05:19,860 --> 00:05:22,050 Siobhan Casey: having a strong deployment of this tool. And I think 98 00:05:22,379 --> 00:05:26,070 Siobhan Casey: November the 3rd was it, we saw an paper article 99 00:05:26,070 --> 00:05:29,850 Siobhan Casey: about the use of generative AI for a parliamentary inquiry 100 00:05:29,850 --> 00:05:32,549 Siobhan Casey: against the large four consulting firms. So we're still not 101 00:05:32,550 --> 00:05:34,589 Siobhan Casey: getting it right in organizations. So some of the roles 102 00:05:34,589 --> 00:05:37,109 Siobhan Casey: that will come down the pipeline are think such as 103 00:05:37,110 --> 00:05:42,059 Siobhan Casey: an AI ethicist, AI personality designers, virtual world safety officers. 104 00:05:42,059 --> 00:05:43,740 Siobhan Casey: So, if you've had any time, Sean, in a virtual 105 00:05:43,740 --> 00:05:47,760 Siobhan Casey: world you need OHS provisions there as well. Quantum data 106 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,310 Siobhan Casey: analysts. There's a whole range of roles that we foresee 107 00:05:50,339 --> 00:05:52,888 Siobhan Casey: and that's only using the data and insights we have 108 00:05:52,889 --> 00:05:56,639 Siobhan Casey: today. We genuinely expect that to grow beyond what we've 109 00:05:56,639 --> 00:05:57,479 Siobhan Casey: been able to calculate. 110 00:05:58,020 --> 00:05:59,940 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me Siobhan. We'll be back in a minute. 111 00:05:59,940 --> 00:06:11,428 Sean Aylmer: My guest today is Siobhan Casey, Head of Growth at ACS. Okay, 112 00:06:11,428 --> 00:06:12,749 Sean Aylmer: I just want to go back to the training issue. 113 00:06:12,750 --> 00:06:16,889 Sean Aylmer: Is the training industry able to keep up to develop 114 00:06:16,889 --> 00:06:18,479 Sean Aylmer: the skills needed? 115 00:06:19,860 --> 00:06:22,020 Siobhan Casey: Look, I think it's a fantastic question. I think it's 116 00:06:22,020 --> 00:06:25,290 Siobhan Casey: multifaceted and it's more than a binary review of education 117 00:06:25,290 --> 00:06:28,980 Siobhan Casey: providers. So obviously it's an ecosystem where you want employers 118 00:06:28,980 --> 00:06:32,130 Siobhan Casey: to have confidence in the skills people are presenting. How 119 00:06:32,130 --> 00:06:34,619 Siobhan Casey: do you do that? So in the absence of having 120 00:06:34,619 --> 00:06:39,238 Siobhan Casey: confidence in other than micro- credentials for cloud computing, et 121 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:41,880 Siobhan Casey: cetera, they work on a bachelor's of IT or they've done 122 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,370 Siobhan Casey: a degree, hopefully they've got some skills. If you were 123 00:06:44,370 --> 00:06:49,319 Siobhan Casey: to mask or badge other credentials, cert fours or other 124 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:53,309 Siobhan Casey: micro courses, they need to have market accreditation and badging, 125 00:06:53,339 --> 00:06:56,640 Siobhan Casey: I think to give the employer confidence that this applicant 126 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,400 Siobhan Casey: or this resource has the right skills to do the 127 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,880 Siobhan Casey: things required in their business. So it's multifaceted. We do 128 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:04,080 Siobhan Casey: need to do more work on this. 129 00:07:04,290 --> 00:07:06,000 Sean Aylmer: Okay. I also want to come back to something else 130 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,929 Sean Aylmer: that you mentioned about women, females shifting into the area. 131 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,410 Sean Aylmer: Now, was it 6% or something you said, ridiculously low? 132 00:07:13,410 --> 00:07:15,000 Siobhan Casey: Yeah, it's only 4% of women- 133 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:15,001 Sean Aylmer: 4%. 134 00:07:15,001 --> 00:07:18,780 Siobhan Casey: ... have a current interest in STEM. I mean the 135 00:07:18,780 --> 00:07:21,090 Siobhan Casey: upside, not to sound like it's all doom and gloom, 136 00:07:21,450 --> 00:07:25,589 Siobhan Casey: 70% of people working in tech today didn't come from 137 00:07:25,590 --> 00:07:27,780 Siobhan Casey: the tech background. They don't have a tech degree. So 138 00:07:27,780 --> 00:07:30,599 Siobhan Casey: that's a bit of optimism that potentially we can attract 139 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,180 Siobhan Casey: those in other sectors and we can see some of 140 00:07:33,180 --> 00:07:35,460 Siobhan Casey: that already happening in the Digital Pulse this year as 141 00:07:35,460 --> 00:07:39,150 Siobhan Casey: well, is the higher salaries paid in the tech sector 142 00:07:39,150 --> 00:07:42,450 Siobhan Casey: compared to non- tech roles. So hopefully that will be 143 00:07:42,450 --> 00:07:44,640 Siobhan Casey: enough to entice people to come over. 144 00:07:45,210 --> 00:07:48,270 Sean Aylmer: Do we need to do more at an educational level 145 00:07:48,510 --> 00:07:51,240 Sean Aylmer: on this though? Because, I mean, salary is to a 146 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,300 Sean Aylmer: point, but lots of individuals need a lot more than money. 147 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:57,870 Siobhan Casey: Absolutely. And we do need to support the teachers on 148 00:07:57,870 --> 00:08:01,799 Siobhan Casey: the frontline in schools to be able to feel confident 149 00:08:01,799 --> 00:08:04,619 Siobhan Casey: in teaching these courses. We had laptops in schools in 150 00:08:04,619 --> 00:08:07,530 Siobhan Casey: New South Wales brought in in 2009, but we still 151 00:08:07,530 --> 00:08:10,470 Siobhan Casey: don't have a course subject on tech. The expectation with the 152 00:08:10,470 --> 00:08:13,740 Siobhan Casey: current curriculum is that there's tech imbued across every subject, 153 00:08:13,740 --> 00:08:15,989 Siobhan Casey: which is great, but I think there is probably a 154 00:08:15,990 --> 00:08:19,170 Siobhan Casey: place for a core subject in tech. We also in 155 00:08:19,170 --> 00:08:22,109 Siobhan Casey: our Digital Pulse advocate for a mentoring program throughout the 156 00:08:22,109 --> 00:08:26,310 Siobhan Casey: schooling environment, which is supported by private industry. We need 157 00:08:26,310 --> 00:08:28,350 Siobhan Casey: to do a number of things, and I think this 158 00:08:28,650 --> 00:08:31,470 Siobhan Casey: all hands on deck, which is what we're advocating in 159 00:08:31,470 --> 00:08:35,069 Siobhan Casey: this report, is that requirement for us to really come 160 00:08:35,070 --> 00:08:37,530 Siobhan Casey: together and think about what is currently working, look to 161 00:08:37,530 --> 00:08:40,409 Siobhan Casey: scale that nationally and then where are the gaps and 162 00:08:40,410 --> 00:08:45,000 Siobhan Casey: using data to identify what would solve that, rapidly focus 163 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:46,830 Siobhan Casey: and deploy money and scale. 164 00:08:47,429 --> 00:08:51,300 Sean Aylmer: I know that ACS is talking about a national digital 165 00:08:51,300 --> 00:08:54,870 Sean Aylmer: skills strategy. Is there not a national digital skills strategy? 166 00:08:56,009 --> 00:08:58,919 Siobhan Casey: Not currently. So there's a lot of great work already 167 00:08:58,949 --> 00:09:02,340 Siobhan Casey: from the new government's focus on industry and jobs and 168 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:04,858 Siobhan Casey: been, as I mentioned, very pleased with the New South 169 00:09:04,860 --> 00:09:08,429 Siobhan Casey: Wales Skills Board collaborative approach, which will soon be launched 170 00:09:08,610 --> 00:09:10,740 Siobhan Casey: with 30 partners in the New South Wales government, New 171 00:09:10,740 --> 00:09:13,290 Siobhan Casey: South Wales being the biggest state of course. There's a 172 00:09:13,290 --> 00:09:16,619 Siobhan Casey: number of really good, I suppose, flags that we're working 173 00:09:16,619 --> 00:09:18,268 Siobhan Casey: in the right direction, but there's still a lot of 174 00:09:18,300 --> 00:09:19,078 Siobhan Casey: work to be done. 175 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,010 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Siobhan, where would you hope that we can get 176 00:09:23,010 --> 00:09:24,780 Sean Aylmer: to over the next 10 years or so? 177 00:09:24,780 --> 00:09:28,199 Siobhan Casey: Look, it's a great question and as I've just said, 178 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,630 Siobhan Casey: there's a significant amount of work to be done. But 179 00:09:30,630 --> 00:09:33,660 Siobhan Casey: when I look at Australia, the Digital Pulse identifies also 180 00:09:33,660 --> 00:09:37,620 Siobhan Casey: our global competitiveness, particularly around critical emerging technologies. And we 181 00:09:37,620 --> 00:09:41,309 Siobhan Casey: are falling short of our global partners. So the measure 182 00:09:41,309 --> 00:09:45,539 Siobhan Casey: of GDP shows that Australia invested only 6. 7%, whereas Japan 8. 183 00:09:45,809 --> 00:09:48,750 Siobhan Casey: 2, the US 7. 8. And if you're a sort 184 00:09:48,750 --> 00:09:50,728 Siobhan Casey: of middling kind of country when it comes to this 185 00:09:50,730 --> 00:09:53,939 Siobhan Casey: level of investment, that is direct economic loss and social 186 00:09:53,940 --> 00:09:57,450 Siobhan Casey: opportunity, which we're foregoing. So very keen for us to 187 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:01,620 Siobhan Casey: lift the investment, deploy those funds in the appropriate manner 188 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:06,090 Siobhan Casey: collaboratively across Australia so we can collectively resolve this and 189 00:10:06,090 --> 00:10:09,900 Siobhan Casey: I suppose realize our economic opportunities throughout this next decade. 190 00:10:10,289 --> 00:10:12,240 Sean Aylmer: Siobhan, thanks for talking to Fear and Greed. 191 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:13,828 Siobhan Casey: Thank you very much, Sean. 192 00:10:14,190 --> 00:10:17,160 Sean Aylmer: That was Siobhan Casey, Head of Growth at ACS. This 193 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,679 Sean Aylmer: is the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Don't forget, join 194 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:21,599 Sean Aylmer: us every morning for the full episode of Fear and 195 00:10:21,599 --> 00:10:25,650 Sean Aylmer: Greed, Australia's best business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer, enjoy your day.