WEBVTT - When a cop becomes the victim: Caroline Clarke Pt. 1 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039 Detective see a side of life the average persons never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.080 exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.400 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:48.600 If you think being a police officer makes you immune 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:52.440 to being a victim, you are mistaken. Today's guest form 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:55.240 of police officer, Carolyn Clark grew up in a home 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:58.720 where love and violence lived side by side. Her mother's 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:02.760 suffering became a temper for her own. Caroline spent almost 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:05.960 a decade as a police officer in the UK. Then, 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:10.160 in twenty twenty four, the routine massage appointment Caroline was 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:13.920 sexually assaulted, she FROs and for a woman who has 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:17.119 spent her career in control, who had trained for threat, 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:20.560 who had seen what silence does to victims, her response 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:23.760 was one that she couldn't explain. What followed was a 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:27.720 pursuit of justice, reckoning with her past, and the unraveling 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:30.600 of a cycle of abuse she could finally trace all 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:34.800 the way back to her childhood. Caroline Clark, welcome to 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:35.639 I Catch Killers. 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:37.560 Thank you well. 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:40.480 I'm looking forward to having the chat with you today. 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:44.000 We're going to delve into some interesting things and some 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:47.560 of let's be open, some of them are fairly traumatic 0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:49.840 because I'm going to ask you to talk about the 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:53.080 time when you were sexually assaulted and the process that 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:54.840 you went through and the impact it had on you. 0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:59.520 But I think it's important that we find out who 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:02.360 you are before we start talking about a thing that 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:05.200 had a dramatic effect on you. I notice you've come 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:09.440 in wearing a T shirt No more silence. What's that about? 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:12.120 So this has come on the back of the sexual 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:15.920 assault Yeah, and understanding how many people have been abused. 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:19.120 There's so much stigma, particularly around sexual abuse. Yes, So 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:22.520 the normal Science movement was created to help people to 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:25.320 break their silence and then to have the shame back 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:26.280 to where it belongs. 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:29.000 I like the concept of that that for too long, 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:33.440 victims of sexual abuse have felt like they've contributed in 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:36.600 some way, whether that's child's sexual abuse or other forms 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:40.960 of sexual abuse, and the victims of villified sometimes and 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:44.120 so good on you. Let's speak up about it. There 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:47.280 shouldn't be any shame to it, and the only shame 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:49.600 is on the people that perpetrate these. 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:53.800 Absolutely absolutely so. No, this mission has grown somewhat since 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:55.360 that sexual assault, which is great. 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:59.679 Interesting backstory. You got yourself. You're a police officer over 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:01.320 in the I was. 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:04.120 I joined in nineteen ninety four when I was twenty 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:08.080 years old, so I served nearly eight years in West Yorkshire, 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:10.520 yep in the north of England. So yeah, I think 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:13.320 it's very much shaped who I am today those years 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:14.320 in the police force. 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:16.799 What made you want to join the place? 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:20.160 Well, I grew up in a little mining town. I 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:23.080 always had this dream to go to the city lights 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:25.160 or explore the world. And I got a job in 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:28.519 an insurance company and I just realized every single day 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:31.720 the same faces on the train or looking miserable and 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:34.280 I was like, is this people's lives forever? Just like 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:37.200 nine to five. Anyway, I was sitting at my desk 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:40.200 one day typing and my colleague was having this conversation 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:43.119 on the phone and sounded really exciting, and she put 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:44.920 the phone. I said, what was Actually all my sisters 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:47.080 joined the police force and she's just been chasing some 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:49.720 criminals through a car park. And I thought, oh, that 0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:53.440 sounds a lot more interesting than just tapping on a keyboard. 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:55.640 So I thought, okay, I'll give them a call and 0:03:55.720 --> 0:03:58.480 perhaps I might join. And they said at the time 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:00.640 that it was an eighteen month way. This I didn't 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:02.680 tell anyone. Yeah, so I thought, if I don't get in, 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:05.000 I don't want the shame of not being good enough. 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:08.520 So I went on a waiting list for eighteen months. 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:12.240 And yeah, got in. Okay, Well that's interesting because people 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:15.400 listened to my podcast probably have heard me talk about 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:17.920 why I joined the police. And I was having lunch 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:20.599 from on the building site and I saw the cops 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:23.839 chasing a bad guy and I thought, that looks like fun. 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:27.880 So you didn't join for any noble reason. You joined 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:29.919 because you thought it would be exciting. 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:34.359 Yeah, And I think I was ambitious, courageous, determined. I 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:37.479 think all of those qualities and values I had within 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:40.000 almost like came up to the surface and went, well, 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:42.000 I'm not actually fulfilling that in this role in an 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:44.440 insurance communist. I felt there's probably a lot of wasted 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:47.040 qualities within me that could have been news elsewhere. And 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:49.680 I thought, okay, I was quite like that, though, I'll 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:52.280 give that a go. What's the worst that can happen is. 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:56.680 You know, well, yeah, I find the founder a fascinating 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:58.640 career and you see a side of life that most 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:02.919 people don't get to get see. It comes with costs, 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:05.320 as we all know anyone that spent a length of 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:09.119 time in law enforcement. It comes with costs, but there's 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:11.719 a lot of interesting things that occur as well. And 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:15.400 job satisfaction. Yeah, you talk about going to the same 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:18.360 office day in day out. That's what I loved about 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:20.839 the cops. Never knew what you were going to do 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:23.320 each day. You could day it could start day up boring, 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:27.080 and that could be the most exhilarating, fascinating, or traumatic 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:29.560 day you've ever experienced. You just didn't know. 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:32.440 And I think that's what I loved about it. I 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:36.479 think I hate that just mundane life, and I would 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:38.200 wake up and go, God, I wonder what I'm going 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:41.159 to face today. Sometimes it would be horrific. Other times 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:45.240 it could be, you know, exhilarating. You could come home 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:47.400 and go, I really change someone's life today. And I 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:51.240 think for me, I was always in service to humanity 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:54.880 in some way, shape or form, and that job just 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:58.680 met completely with my values, just knowing that you could 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:00.120 make a change. And I think this is why I've 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:02.200 probably gone on to do what I've done with every 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:04.800 experience in life, is like, how can I change that 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:08.440 around into something good to serve the public. And I 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:10.080 think the police did that very well. 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:13.120 And I think regardless of why we join all why 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:16.120 people join the police, if you do commit to that job, 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:18.320 you do understand that there is a public service and 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:19.839 there is a lot of good and it makes you 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:23.080 feel good about yourself, like they're doing worker to make 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:26.760 people's lives a little bit better. Yorctually, where you were 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.480 a police officer described the area that you were stationed in. 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:34.080 So for me, when I joined, I was looking that 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:37.039 my cousin worked in the recruitment department, so she said, 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:38.800 you can choose any division. 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:40.360 Wow. 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:43.039 But again the character that I had, and I think, 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:45.720 deep down, when I've really done the work and looked 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:47.280 into this, I think I was I was trying to 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:50.200 impress my dad, because my dad was a very harsh man. 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:52.400 So it was like, if I just throw myself in 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:55.040 at the deep end, then I'll get praise from him. 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:58.680 I'll finally be seen, I'll finally be commended in some ways. 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:00.919 So I thought, Okay, I said, to a choose me 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:05.320 the most notorious crime ridden division, throw me in there. Well, 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:07.240 as you would know, if you're a good officer in 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:10.040 a terrible area, you can't you can't leave, you can't 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:14.880 get down, get stuck there. So it was called killing back. 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:16.240 And yeah, I mean it was. I mean it was 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:19.240 eleven miles from where I grew up, but I couldn't believe. 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:22.240 It was almost like a different world. I'm like, do 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:24.560 people really exist like this? I think it was a 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:27.640 shot sharp shock. Even though I grew up in what 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:30.720 I now realize this was a pretty domestic violence home. 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:35.640 Seeing that, and I was just gobsmacked and appalled at 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:40.560 the generational cycles of abuse that were just continuing over 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:40.960 and over. 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:44.360 Yeah, well, I would imagine in an area like that, 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:49.040 majority of crime, probably the main crime is domestic violence, 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:53.080 and that that type of thing in low socio economic areas, 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:55.840 that's quite often, quite often the case. 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:58.560 Yeah, I mean it was very low socio economic but 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:02.760 your laugh because it was that bad that the scriptwriters 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:05.080 from the Bill would come out and get stories. 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:08.119 I love that show. Yeah. Well, I enjoyed the Bill, 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:12.000 although it was so I found it so really sick. 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:14.560 In part sometimes when I was just tired of police work, 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:16.840 I didn't feel like watching the Bill because you could 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:20.080 you felt like you understood all the characters in there, 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:21.040 the nature of it. 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:23.160 It was so real, and we had to jerk and said, oh, 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:24.960 you know, if you can't remember the cash and just 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:26.680 watch the bill and then you'll get reminded. 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:29.880 Yeah, yeah, well that's right. I did a little bit 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:33.760 of work over in London and various police stations over there, 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:36.640 and it looked like the said of the Bill. It 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:39.520 was felt very familiar with it. How did you feel 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:41.800 the first like you go through the academy, how did 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:43.880 you feel the first day that you went out in 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:47.520 uniform and working as a police officer. Because you think 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:49.920 you're ready for it, but it usually comes as a shock. 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:53.040 Have you got any experiences that showed you how little 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:53.480 you knew? 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:56.880 I think I was just reading naive when I look back, 0:08:57.320 --> 0:08:59.520 and as I say, I had that strength within, but 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:03.160 I'm not really caught up to the reality of life, 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:05.440 almost like I was probably living in a little bubble. 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:08.240 So I remember the first time on foot patrol. And 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:10.800 you remember, back in the early nineties, like women wore 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:13.319 skirts and colots, we wore stock in so you're like 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:17.800 a proper lady. And it was my tutor dropped me off. 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:19.480 He said, you know, do two hours, but you have 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:22.760 to get so many tickets. And it's like, okay. I 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:25.600 remember these two kids walking at the other side of 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:28.520 the street and the shouts OI, and I'm thinking they 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:30.760 can't be talking to me. Surely they won't speak to 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:33.520 a police officer like that. So I carried on walking 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:36.560 in there are you And I looked around and said, 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:40.319 excuse me, come here, in that sort of like teacher voice. 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:43.680 I said, who are you speaking to? And they're like 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:46.240 ff or something like that. I said, where are your manners? 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:48.319 You know you don't speak to me that same please, 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:51.520 And I think in that moment I realized that like 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:53.440 the world I've grown up and is not the world 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:56.280 that I'm going to survive In the police force, it's 0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:58.120 like I have to you almost have to meet them 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:00.320 at their level. So I had a lot of on 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:03.840 doing to do a naivety to survive in that job. 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:07.720 Did you do single unit patrols in those days? That's interesting, 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:12.000 like we do have them over in this country, but 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:16.440 it's very rare. That's a sharp learning experience because at 0:10:16.520 --> 0:10:21.000 least when I started, invariably you had a partner that 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:23.360 you could rely on. It didn't take very long before 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:25.480 you became the senior partner, but for the first couple 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:27.640 of months you had a buddy that looked after you 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:29.959 and pointed you in the right direction. 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:32.439 So, I mean, when you think about it, even putting 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:34.520 a female out on her own, it's pre ludicrous. I mean, 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:37.719 I remember chasing a car by myself, and times when 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:40.920 you called to a hostage situation, but they would usually 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:44.480 say wait outside the address until somebody arrived. But of 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:46.160 course if you're outside and address and you can hear 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:49.199 commotion and then you're just sitting in a car helpless. 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:51.720 But you know, we it was all downe to numbers. 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:53.160 If you didn't have it. You had a certain amount 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:55.240 of cars, six cars, and you had to fill them. 0:10:55.480 --> 0:10:58.480 Yep, you weren't armed as well, were you back back 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:01.400 in those days. Now that seems like a foreign concept 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:04.120 to someone from law enforcement in this country because we 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:07.280 always had the firearmors the backup. But that would have 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:10.520 let you felt fairly vulnerable, I would imagine in certain 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:12.079 circumstances completely. 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:13.400 I mean when you think when we joined out, we 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:16.120 had was a little truncheon. Yeah, this long, that's it. 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:20.000 There was no capsican spray, there was no side handle baton, 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:24.520 there were the floppy handcuffs, so we were really exposed. 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:28.040 But I remember when the first brought the capsican spray in, 0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:30.880 we finally felt that we all had something more than 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:32.400 just because no one really I think you only use 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:35.719 your truncheon to smash a window. But we never had 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:38.880 issues with guns back then. Yes, it was always knives. 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.120 So my philosophy was, well, if we've got a gun, 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:44.280 they're going to try and outbeat us in some way. 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:46.440 So I don't know, part of me thought if we 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:48.240 had guns would have there been more gun crime in 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:48.760 the UK. 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:53.560 Perhaps I understand where you're coming from because I was 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:56.120 amazed that you could do the policing that you did 0:11:56.160 --> 0:12:01.200 in London without the firearms. But does tend to escalate 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:03.200 if you've got the firearm. Well, the bad guys have 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:06.280 got the firearm, and then it keeps going that way. 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:10.440 Did you have any scary experiences anywhere you genuinely feed 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:11.720 for your safety. 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:14.800 Yeah, I think there wasn't too much of that. Actually, 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:17.560 it's probably the safest I felt in my whole life, 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:21.320 in the sense that growing up with a volatile father. 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:23.559 For the first time I was actually surrounded by some 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:26.840 really safe, protective men, right, and I think for me 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:31.800 that was extremely comforting. I remember the first time, probably 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:34.840 the scariest time, when I first joined I went to 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:37.600 this burglary and it was, as you know, when you 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:39.800 would get a call. By the time we arrived, times 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:42.520 elapsed and they've gone. But this time we were around 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:44.640 the corner and my colleague said to me, you go 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:46.400 wait at the front and I'm going to go inside, 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:49.040 meaning I'll face the danger. You can just be the observer. 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:52.320 So I'm stood there thinking, okay, well, what do I do? 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.679 No word of a lie. It was a textbook robbery. 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:59.880 He literally jumped through the front glass window with his 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:02.760 swag bag, and I thought, what do I do now? 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:06.280 Like my tutor's not here to give me direction, So 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:08.520 I chased after him down the street. It was about 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:11.840 six foot two. We had this little ponytail, so I 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:15.280 grabbed hold of him, grabbed his ponytail, pulled him because 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:18.679 obviously you got leverage with the hair, dragged him to 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:21.440 the ground. I remember we were rolling and I'm just thinking, 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:24.400 what the heck am I doing? Like, where's my colleague? 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:26.839 And the area that you're in, nobody comes to save 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:28.640 a police officer. In fact, they just look over and 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:29.200 laugh at you. 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:29.960 Yeah. Yeah. 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:32.199 Anyway, when I eventually got up and I thought, oh, 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:34.160 this job's fun. This is must be what you do 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:37.319 every day. You get, you know, pretty naive. And this 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:39.160 guy there was a warrant out for his arrest, and 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:41.720 they're like, do you realize, Like I think I've got 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:44.320 a braver accommodation for that. Do you realize what you've 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:45.640 just done? I was like, oh, I just thought this 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:46.440 happened every day. 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:51.640 But they're the things, the situations that you find yourself in, 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:55.000 and you know when you get through it. Sometimes I think, 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:57.679 and we get paid for this because the excitement, the adrenaline, 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:01.240 and I was drawn to that. I enjoyed that aspect 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:03.680 of it. But it brings back memories like when you 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:05.720 an alarm of breaking then and you might be on 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:08.440 night shift and you're creeping, creeping around in the dark, 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:11.520 not knowing what you're going to find. So yeah, it 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:12.599 does leave impressions. 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:14.320 I mean back in those days, it was when they 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:16.160 used to take the ATMs out of the walls. You 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:17.240 remember the used to be space. 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:20.200 We had a spade of that. Then the two early 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:21.880 two thousands and with. 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:25.280 The trucks, and then I remember one guy, I think 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:27.000 he was drunk. He had obviously come out of the 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:28.600 pop and thought it was a good idea to go 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:30.800 back in and take the safe and he had like 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:33.120 a little shopping trolley and we caught him like pushing 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:36.080 it down the street. Some mean, you have to laugh 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:36.800 at those kind of. 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:40.800 You've got to love love those moments. I still laugh 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:44.080 very early in my career. And I think it went 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:46.560 for about a kilometer and a half, chasing, chasing the 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:49.520 naked man down the down the street at two o'clock, 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:52.080 three o'clock in the morning, that we're looking out for 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:55.800 the kidnapper that had been abducting or had abducted the child, 0:14:57.080 --> 0:15:00.320 chasing this naked man, thinking this is a kidnapper and 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:03.240 helpful eather. I had an old sergeant with me at 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:05.560 the time that wasn't really the type that was in 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:09.200 a foot pursuit, so I'm ahead of him chasing this 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:11.400 naked man. I still and then we're running up a 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:14.840 hill and down streets and I remember, and I wasn't 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:16.720 going to do it, but I thought he's getting away, 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:19.640 getting away from me, and I've yelled that stop or 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:21.880 I'll shoot. I wasn't going to shoot. I didn't have 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:26.600 my firearm out, obviously, and he stopped at that moment, 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:30.600 and I ran and grabbed him and wrestling with this 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:33.160 naked man on the road. The sergeant I think I 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:35.960 nearly killed him because he thought, who is this young 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:39.000 idiot as in me saying stop or I'll shoot, So 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:42.840 he sprinted up there he collapsed beside us. But yeah, 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:46.760 it's it's strange the circumstances that you find yourself in. 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:49.320 And it's funny, isn't it how when you're in a conversation, 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:52.400 how it actually invokes old memories. Yeah, because I have 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:54.360 there's so much that I've forgotten. But when you start 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:57.480 to have a conversation, and I remember chasing some kids 0:15:57.720 --> 0:15:59.720 because I was pretty fit back then, but you know, 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:02.320 some of these little whipper snappers. You can't catch them, right, 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:04.920 And I remember running, you know, and your feet are 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:08.000 running faster than you and I literally fell over, like 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:11.200 ripped all my tights and skin was hanging off my leg. 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:13.640 And I remember this, all these kids just laughing at me. 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:15.440 I thought, oh God, I hope I never ever see 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:15.960 them again. 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:19.840 Yeah, well, that's joys of placing. Did you get into 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:22.240 the criminal investigation side of placing? 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:24.880 Yeah? No, as far as I got was in drugs. 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:26.960 I went into the drugs team, which was. 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:29.520 That like that would have been interesting times because drugs 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:33.160 were being pretty prevalent as out now, but very much 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:34.880 so in the in the nineties. 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:37.400 Yeah, very prevalent. I think the fun part of that 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:40.480 was doing all the concerts, like I remember V ninety 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.560 seven we did the Yeah we did. We were in 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:46.320 plain clothes and I remember being told, look, we're not 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:48.360 going to arrest for cannabis because there'll be that much 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:51.520 of it unless it's a serious amount, but just take 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:53.120 it off them and like we were walking around with 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:57.360 pockets and pockets of weed, and yeah, it was it 0:16:57.480 --> 0:17:01.040 was fun. I think the downside to that was all 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:03.240 the surveillance, and I just wanted to be in the 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:05.520 heat of the moment. I wanted to be in the 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:07.399 thick of it, on the front line, whereas there was 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:13.480 hours and hours sitting in cars almost falling asleep, watching houses. Yeah. 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:17.480 Well, yeah, you say, vake memories. I think the countless 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:20.040 times I've been seeing in the car at all hours 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:23.359 of the day, night and sitting there trying to trying 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:27.160 to stay awake and try not to miss anything, and 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:30.320 being cold or hot or all the different different things. 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:33.800 But yeah, well that's what you sign up for when 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:38.960 you do policing. You worked child protection as well, so that. 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:41.960 Was outside of the police, which has been interesting because 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:45.520 I think I've always been driven towards understanding trauma, even 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:48.800 though I didn't realize I was. So the child protection 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:51.680 was in twenty four hour homes, and it was kids 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:55.119 who had literally been passed through from parents to foster 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:57.320 care to the point where they had nowhere to go. 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:02.240 So I mean, these were heavily, heavily tromized children, and 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:06.240 I struggled because there were kids who were hitting you, 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:09.120 spitting at you, and I thought, in the police force 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:12.199 we had powers to do something. And of course it 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:16.040 was no fault of these children. However, the children were 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:19.720 heavily protected and I was drowning in that job. I 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:22.399 was like, you know, bosses would just turn a blind eye, 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:24.720 and I think for me, there was a big part 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:27.680 of my vulnerability was still quite exposed. I had that 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:29.760 mother figure in me. I just wanted to help everyone. 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:32.280 But again, when we talk about does that help you 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:35.520 to survive in a home like that, that mother inside of 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:36.000 me didn't. 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:38.440 If you want to help everyone, then you jump deep 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:41.199 enough into a dark area, you find that you just 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:43.920 haven't got the capabilities of it. It's too much, too 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:47.000 too much to deal with. What time you left the place? 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:50.080 Why did you started to leave the place? 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:51.320 I had a car accident. 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:54.960 It was working. 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:57.320 Yeah, So it wasn't a choice. And that was a 0:18:57.400 --> 0:18:59.960 very dark time of my life because, as you know, 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:04.159 you join a family and literally we would have back then, 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:06.359 we had bars in police stations. I don't know whether 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:07.359 you had those. 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:11.480 Not officially, okay, so we deny their their allegation. 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:13.960