1 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 2: I'm Sean Ailmam. 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: Yesterday the Reserve Bank Board left interest rates on hohold 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: as expected, but the bank is starting to sound a 5 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: little more positive about the inflation outlook. We've spoken many 6 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,119 Speaker 1: times to economist Warren Hogan, who has one of the 7 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: best track records on predicting rates. It was the only 8 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: economist to predict a year out the official cash rate 9 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: would hit four point three five percent. Also one of 10 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: the first to say that if there was an interest 11 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: rate cut coming, it wouldn't happen this year. Warren, You've 12 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: been proven correct. Warren, of course, is Managing director of 13 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: equ Economics and Economic Advisor at Judo Bank. 14 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 2: Welcome back to Fear and Greed. 15 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me on the show, Sean, it's a 16 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 3: great pleasure. 17 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: What do you make of the Reserve Bank Board meeting yesterday? 18 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,599 Speaker 1: This statement afterwards in Michelle Bullock's comments. 19 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it was a really important and really 20 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 3: smart way of playing this from the RBA board. So 21 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 3: obviously no rate and no consideration of it. We know 22 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,759 Speaker 3: that they're not even thinking about it. But after six 23 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 3: months of hanging a rate hike over the heads of 24 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 3: the Australian people and the Australian economy. They have pulled back, 25 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 3: and it's for good reason. They are essentially trying to 26 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 3: jawbone their way through this inflation problem, i e. The 27 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 3: narrow path by not taking rates to the sort of 28 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 3: levels they might have in the past or what other 29 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 3: central banks have done overseas. Jaw Boning is a critical 30 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 3: part of this. But the politics is tricky, not just 31 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 3: in terms of Canberra and an upcoming election, but the 32 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 3: broader community. You know, they don't like rad hikes. They 33 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:38,839 Speaker 3: want to see a raid cut. So with a long 34 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 3: summer break coming and this is the biggest break we've 35 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 3: ever seen for the RBA board without getting back together 36 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 3: for about nine or ten weeks, and with all the 37 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 3: sort of political stuff we're going to see over the summer, 38 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 3: they just thought we're going to pull back. You know, 39 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 3: we're going to pull a rhetoric back, We're going to 40 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 3: park the jaw boning. And I think that's really smart 41 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 3: because the reality is is that with such a big brain, 42 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 3: the whole thing could change. It may not, but they 43 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:08,239 Speaker 3: will deal with what's the economy doing. Early in twenty 44 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 3: twenty five, when they next sit down. And of course 45 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 3: we've got some important stuff coming over the summer, and 46 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 3: that is this new Interest Rate Committee that has now 47 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 3: been legislated, and of course the appointment of new members 48 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 3: by the government. They don't want to poke the bear, 49 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 3: they don't want to upset the government any more than 50 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 3: they have to, and so I think this is a 51 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 3: smart move. But as the Governor said in the press conference, 52 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 3: this doesn't tell us anything about what's going to happen next. 53 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 2: What will happen next? Do you reckon? 54 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 3: I wish I knew. 55 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 2: Michelle Book would like you to know too, Yeah. 56 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 3: It's you would like to know, So that would make 57 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 3: it for a lot better sleep at night. 58 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 2: Loo. 59 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 3: I mean, I can I can see how this can 60 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 3: play out. You know, we are making progress the last 61 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 3: quarterly CPI stripping out all the noise and all the stuff, 62 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,679 Speaker 3: and the government is looking a bit better, but there's 63 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 3: a long way to go and before he can be comfortable. 64 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 3: But the economy soft so we could be there and 65 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 3: we could start to see rate cuts in the middle 66 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,399 Speaker 3: of next year. I really don't see one happening in well, 67 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 3: certainly not February, and something really significant would have to shift. 68 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 3: What's worried me the whole time, and what is the 69 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 3: basis is a lot of my work is we've finished 70 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 3: the nominal tightening. It's eighteen months it takes to work through. 71 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 3: We've had one rate hike in the last eight ten months, 72 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 3: allout four hundred and twenty five basis points of tightening 73 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 3: we saw which all of us thought was going to 74 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 3: knock this economy off its perch. We've absorbed it and 75 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 3: it's exiting the system. Now. It's all about the real 76 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 3: interest rate, the RBA cash rate minus inflation, and that's 77 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 3: not very high. It's less than one percent. The RBA 78 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 3: cash rates not much higher than core inflation, and history 79 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 3: shows it probably needs to be higher. People will argue 80 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 3: it doesn't, and there's all these different views on it. 81 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 3: My view, given that I think the world's changed since 82 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 3: the pandemic, demographics, a whole bunch of stuff. What scares 83 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 3: me what I think is going to be the basic question. 84 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 3: Is a one percent real interest rate going to get 85 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 3: inflation down and keep it there? And I just don't 86 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 3: think it will. I hope I'm wrong. We just don't know. 87 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 3: So we just got to see if we start to 88 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 3: see the consumer business spend more. As we are head 89 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 3: into twenty five, it's not great news. We really do 90 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 3: need to keep demanding the economy software for a little 91 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 3: bit longer to ensure inflation gets all the way down. 92 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,039 Speaker 3: So we just wait and see. I fear that the 93 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 3: opportunity to take out some insurance this year against an 94 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 3: economy that takes off again, it was missed, and the 95 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 3: political environment made it very hard for them to take 96 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 3: out that insurance. It was very costly insurance. And I 97 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 3: just hope for all of our sakes that we don't 98 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 3: see an economy that really starts to pick up pace 99 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 3: through twenty twenty five and inflation where the next year 100 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 3: starts to pick up again, because then we could be 101 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 3: looking at lots of right hikes in the recession. And 102 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 3: I just hope that doesn't happen. It's not the core 103 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 3: of you, but it's a. 104 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: Risk on that basis. If you're talking about really interest 105 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 1: rates need to be higher than one percent, even if 106 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 1: we get inflation to three percent, let's say one percent 107 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: plus still four point three five percent anyway? Is it 108 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: the fact that means since the GFC we've had ultra 109 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 1: low interest rates. Is this our new normal low. Should 110 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 1: we just not well, should we stop talking about the 111 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: need to cut rates plenty of times and say, yeah, 112 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: maybe we do need to cut it once or twice, 113 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: but this is life going forward. 114 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. And so that's the point. That's what I've been 115 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,559 Speaker 3: trying to get across to the community or the people 116 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 3: I speak to in business, is that whether we cut 117 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 3: rates or not or whatever, this is the new normal. 118 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 3: It was an unusual period between the GFC and COVID. 119 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 3: We're not in that world anymore. And the cash rates 120 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 3: probably going to average somewhere between three and a half 121 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 3: and four and a half for the next ten years. 122 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 3: So in the current environment, given the narrow path, I mean, 123 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 3: not only is it not clear that they actually can 124 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 3: cut rates at all, but if they do, it's probably 125 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 3: only one or two times. And that's actually increasingly becoming 126 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 3: the view of economists and forecasters that you see in 127 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 3: the surveys. So I think that's a really important point, 128 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 3: and it speaks to the biggest issue that is sitting 129 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 3: here for monitory policy, and that is where we came 130 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 3: from the real stress out there. And the thing that's 131 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 3: really an issue is that a lot of people took 132 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 3: on really big mortgages, smart people, doctors, lawyers. 133 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 2: Bankers, podcasters, Warren podcast casters. Yes, and you're talking my 134 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 2: story here. Go on. 135 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 3: Well, we did it when rates were really low, and 136 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 3: we did it with a bit of comfort from what 137 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:26,919 Speaker 3: the governor said back then about keeping them low for 138 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,039 Speaker 3: a while. And the fact is we probably you know, 139 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 3: the question is should we have taken rates out low? 140 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 3: And of course the massive move up and rates, the 141 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 3: nominal tightening, is what shifted the game for so many people. 142 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 3: And we want to go back to where we were, 143 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 3: but we just aren't. And you know, if you can't 144 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 3: finance some mortgage at this rate, then you got to 145 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:45,359 Speaker 3: seriously look at it, because I don't think you're going 146 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 3: to in any structural, longer term sense, get a much 147 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 3: lower mortgage rate. And there is still a risk that 148 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 3: they could have to go higher. Maybe not in the 149 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 3: short term, but in twenty six or twenty seven. Who 150 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 3: knows if the cash rate has to go to five 151 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 3: and a half percent. It did in the United States, 152 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 3: it did in New Zealand, and that's another percentage point, 153 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 3: and that really is a significant further shift for many people. 154 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 2: Stay with me. 155 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute, I'm talking to Warren Hogan, 156 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: Managing director of EQ Economics and economic advisor at Judo Bank. 157 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: What about the economic cycle? You mentioned that earlier on well, 158 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: two things. I want to talk about, the economic cycle 159 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: and the changes to the Reserve Bank that are coming 160 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: next year. The bank has always since you know in 161 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: McFarland fill Low, they've always spoken about, you know, if 162 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: they don't cut rates, or they do cut rates in 163 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: economic cycle, that's being political, if they're not just following 164 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: their judgment. Do you think that's the case. 165 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, I've always thought, particularly when it comes to 166 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 3: an election campaign, that that's not the right way that 167 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 3: the government goes into caretaking the RB should I mean, 168 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 3: I was there when Glenn Stevens hiked in the two 169 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 3: thousand and seven election campaign, and I'd been saying for 170 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 3: a long time myself saw less those who I worked 171 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 3: with that they should be going, that they could have 172 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 3: gone earlier. The fact that they didn't go and they 173 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 3: left it to that point was their fault. But if 174 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 3: they waited another month until after the election, was that 175 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 3: going to change anything. They're the ones who probably should 176 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 3: have done it earlier and left themselves in that position. 177 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 3: So I've had a strong view that once you get 178 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 3: into a campaign there shouldn't be any But in the 179 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 3: moment we're talking about political pressure about movements in rates, 180 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 3: and not just a hike, but also the need for 181 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 3: a cut six months out. So I think this is 182 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 3: the problem that the politicization of monetary policy started with 183 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 3: Howard in the ninety six election, with the debt buses 184 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 3: and all that stuff. That coalition government utilized the sort 185 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 3: of the fear of debt, and then of course that's 186 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 3: where mortgage debt really took off in this country, the 187 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 3: changes in banking, and it's just got worse and worse, 188 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 3: and it's now at this I hope crescendo a hard 189 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 3: peak because you know, there's people who framed this election 190 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 3: has been rate cut, you'll win, rate hike, you'll lose, 191 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 3: no change minority government. I mean, it's not that simple. 192 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 3: But it's gettingerous. It's getting dangerous for our politics, and 193 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 3: it's getting dangerous for the RBA, and I think it's 194 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 3: not a good development at all. 195 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 1: Okay, what about the new interest rates setting board? Do 196 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: you think that will have made much of a difference 197 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: next year? 198 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 3: No, I don't. I mean the muscle behind monetary policy 199 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 3: remains the RBA. And for all the criticisms, justified or otherwise, 200 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 3: this is an institution that contains some of the most dedicated, 201 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 3: smartest people in our nation and economists. Definitely, and that's 202 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 3: the muscle. I mean, is the Treasure like the market 203 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 3: is sort of saying, oh, well, we've passed the legislation 204 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 3: with the help of the Greens, they're going to stack 205 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 3: the board and cut rates in April. I mean, the 206 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 3: Treasure is not going to do that, and the RBA 207 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 3: board isn't going to do that. The kind of people 208 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 3: put on I mean, people have opinions, but look, you 209 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 3: come in as an individual and no matter how smart 210 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 3: you are or what information you got, and try and 211 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 3: carry the day across the board and that muscle that 212 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 3: is the RBA. That's not the right view. It's not 213 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 3: going to work. So I don't think our monetary policy 214 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 3: is going to change, and I don't think the Treasure 215 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 3: is going to do anything stilly with the appointments. 216 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: Okay, last line then Warren this time twelve months, what 217 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 1: are interest So it's going to be. 218 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 3: Like I actually think the safest bet is four point 219 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 3: three five. I think there's a slightly bigger chance that 220 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 3: they'll be higher than materially lower, but it's marginal, and 221 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 3: so I'm going to completely cop out and say they're 222 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 3: going to be exactly where they are, and that could 223 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 3: well be some record for how long rates have stowed 224 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 3: where they are. 225 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:40,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think that's a cop out because most 226 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 1: people will come and say that they'll be lower. So 227 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: I think that's actually going out on a bit of 228 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: a branch on that one. 229 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, well there may be some cuts. That is. That 230 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 3: is the easy view to have. I just don't think 231 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 3: monetude policy is restrictive anymore, and I don't think this 232 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 3: level of interest rates is extraordinary. I think it's the 233 00:10:58,720 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 3: new norm. 234 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 2: Warren, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 235 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 3: Thanks John. 236 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 1: That was Warren Hogan, Managing director of EQ Economics and 237 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:08,439 Speaker 1: Economic Advisor at Judo Bank. This is the Fear and 238 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: Greed Business Interview. Join us every morning for the full 239 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: episode of Fear and Greed. Daily businesses for people who 240 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: make their own decisions. I'm shanelma Enjoy your day.