Speaker 1: I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM. Another
Speaker 1: major Taalco outage has raised the question what happens when
Speaker 1: you call triple zero and the call doesn't get through.
Speaker 1: This week, Telstra blamed a software the Effect for a
Speaker 1: national outage that disrupted phones, payments and transport and left
Speaker 1: more than three hundred Triple zero calls failing or unable
Speaker 1: to connect. The Communications Watchdog is now investigating, but this
Speaker 1: isn't the first time Australia has been here. Last year,
Speaker 1: Optus had his own catastrophic failure after a thirteen hour
Speaker 1: outage bole hundreds of emergency calls across South Australia, Western
Speaker 1: Australia and the Northern Territory and was linked to deaths
Speaker 1: AKIMA opened an investigation into Optus, but still hasn't published
Speaker 1: final findings. So today we're bringing you Ruby Jones's conversation
Speaker 1: from last year with journalists and Crikey contributor Michael Sainsbury,
Speaker 1: What went wrong in Optics and how the government's choices
Speaker 1: let us hear? It's Sunday, July twelfth. This episode was
Speaker 1: originally published in September twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2: So Michael last week, hundreds of Australians discovered that they
Speaker 2: couldn't get through when they tried to call Triple zero
Speaker 2: with catastrophic and we now know some fatal consequences. So
Speaker 2: tell me about what we know about what was happening
Speaker 2: with Optus's network while this was going on.
Speaker 3: So it was just a regular network up bro and
Speaker 3: the telto networks thirty thousands of these a week, so
Speaker 3: there's all sorts of stuff they're doing every day. There's
Speaker 3: obviously thousands of base stations across the country. They're very
Speaker 3: sophisticated software systems that connect those things to the fiber
Speaker 3: optics underground, to the big computers that go out to
Speaker 3: your phone. So that's very very complex networks and there's
Speaker 3: always stuff going on. This was a regular sort of
Speaker 3: upgrade that went wrong.
Speaker 4: Today it was revealed the deadly outage the result of
Speaker 4: a botch firewall upgrade that lasted thirteen hours. Six hundred
Speaker 4: customers across three states without access to Triple zero.
Speaker 3: The outage only affected people in the Northern Territory, Western
Speaker 3: Australia and South Australia. Initially, they thought it affected about
Speaker 3: six hundred calls made to emergency.
Speaker 5: Services good evening.
Speaker 6: We have a major story developing as we go to wear.
Speaker 6: Just moments ago, we learned that three people have died
Speaker 6: during a major Optus network outage that affected triple zero calls.
Speaker 3: Something in their processes was either bad, could have been
Speaker 3: a badly written piece of software, or it could just
Speaker 3: have been a very simple human era where things just
Speaker 3: weren't followed properly and weren't checked. If it had been
Speaker 3: a national thing, again, that may have been picked up
Speaker 3: more quickly by system.
Speaker 5: But do those systems have enough red flags? It sounds
Speaker 5: like they.
Speaker 2: Don't, okay, And I mean you can see how these
Speaker 2: things might happen, but you would assume that in the
Speaker 2: case of human error or a bad update that there
Speaker 2: would be a backup, something would kick in if a
Speaker 2: network you know isn't working like this, particularly when it
Speaker 2: comes to triple zero calls.
Speaker 1: So what should have.
Speaker 3: Happened, Well, there is actually a backup across all of
Speaker 3: the networks in Australia where if for some reason your
Speaker 3: networks aren't connecting to the Triple O system, the calls.
Speaker 5: Will be routed into Celster or voter phone so they
Speaker 5: can access that system.
Speaker 3: Now, the Triple O system is actually run by Chelster
Speaker 3: under contract to the government, so all the calls go
Speaker 3: into a call center Chelster, which is known as Triple
Speaker 3: O or the Emergency Call Person. Officially, what seems to
Speaker 3: have happened is that the customers and office were able
Speaker 3: to call make normal calls, but they weren't able to
Speaker 3: make Triple zero calls, and this wasn't flagged immediately. There
Speaker 3: were also people who rang and at least five people,
Speaker 3: possibly more, rang off just call centers to tell them
Speaker 3: that the Triple O wasn't working. And again there was
Speaker 3: a failure of process there that that wasn't escalated straight away.
Speaker 4: The customers tried five times to warn the company that
Speaker 4: emergency calls were not going through.
Speaker 1: In the past few hours, Optus has confirmed those complaints
Speaker 1: were received by its offshore call centers.
Speaker 3: Now, I was foken just an engineer upon the other
Speaker 3: networks and he said, look the Triple O. When they've
Speaker 3: got a checklist of network up drags, TRIPLO is absolutely
Speaker 3: the top of the list. It should be the first
Speaker 3: thing that's checked in, double checked before anything happens, and
Speaker 3: that didn't happen.
Speaker 2: So in the wake of all of this, there are
Speaker 2: a lot of questions being asked about Optis and about
Speaker 2: its governance. So tell me about the company and how
Speaker 2: it is responding to this particular outage.
Speaker 3: Most people probably know it's the second biggest Solcone Australia.
Speaker 3: It's the second biggest mobile network its own and by
Speaker 3: Singaporretegal Communications, so it's not a publicly listed company in
Speaker 3: Australia and Singapore. Cheltroms is owned by Singapore government, so
Speaker 3: ultimately Singapore's responsible for everything that happens at Optus. But
Speaker 3: this is not the first time this has happened. This
Speaker 3: happened with Optus two years ago.
Speaker 1: We have more on that.
Speaker 6: Breaking news on the massive Optus outage.
Speaker 4: Ten million Optors customers are still without mobile and broadband
Speaker 4: services amid a massive nationwide outage.
Speaker 1: There is a lot developing.
Speaker 5: There was a government inquiry.
Speaker 4: The Federal government has released the terms of reference of
Speaker 4: an investigation into this month's major Optis outage.
Speaker 5: The eighteen recommendations handed down.
Speaker 7: At its core is ensuring the integrity of the Triple zero.
Speaker 2: Service and that it continues to operate effectively in the
Speaker 2: interests of all Australians.
Speaker 5: That process hasn't been finished properly.
Speaker 3: Only about two thirds of those recommendations been implemented in
Speaker 3: some of the key ones had not been implemented. And
Speaker 3: then a year before that outage, they had that dreadful
Speaker 3: a breach where the data about nine million people was stolen.
Speaker 3: The head of OPTAs says she is devastated by the
Speaker 3: cyber attack which has potentially compromised the personal information of
Speaker 3: nearly ten million customers. Octus now has got very much
Speaker 3: a reputation of being a company that is kind of
Speaker 3: making some big technical fails every couple of years. Stephen
Speaker 3: Rue is the CEO. He was brought in about nine
Speaker 3: months ago. They got rid of the last CEO who
Speaker 3: was in charge of those last two disasters. He came
Speaker 3: from NBN, so he's pretty familiar with self communications networks
Speaker 3: and he's pretty familiar with dealing with government, so it's
Speaker 3: kind of a dent in his record early on.
Speaker 7: I want to offer a sincere apology to all customers
Speaker 7: who could not connect to emergency services when they needed
Speaker 7: them most.
Speaker 5: But nine months is not a hell of a lot
Speaker 5: of time in a big company like opt just to
Speaker 5: fix things.
Speaker 3: There's obviously some deep seated cultural problems of just that
Speaker 3: allow these sorts of process issues to happen.
Speaker 2: Nevertheless, we did hear the Prime Minister Anthony Albanezi saying
Speaker 2: that he would be surprised if Stephen Rue the CEO,
Speaker 2: wasn't considering his position.
Speaker 4: I'd be surprised if that wasn't occurring.
Speaker 2: We also heard from the Communications Minister Annika Wells talking
Speaker 2: about accountability and consequences. Optis and all telecommunications providers have
Speaker 2: obligations under Australian law to make sure emergency services calls
Speaker 2: go through. The South Australian Premier Peter Melanaskis called it
Speaker 2: in competence.
Speaker 8: I mean the fact that Optis were crafting media statements
Speaker 8: and arranging press conferences.
Speaker 4: Without alerting Satisfraine Animalance Service.
Speaker 2: About this, tell me what you make of the political response.
Speaker 5: It was pretty fast and it's pretty brutal.
Speaker 3: Look, people die, so I think political leaders feels that
Speaker 3: they have to react. But we we are, as you know,
Speaker 3: living in a world where it's very much buying first,
Speaker 3: asked questions later, and I just don't think it's terribly
Speaker 3: helpful when you've got politicians, you know, talking about significant consequences.
Speaker 5: They want to sound tough there's a whole.
Speaker 3: Lot of legislation around these sorts of things, and there
Speaker 3: are some pretty hefty fines that the companies can get,
Speaker 3: and I think I've just has been fined ten and
Speaker 3: twelve million dollars I think for the last two of
Speaker 3: it's problems.
Speaker 5: That being said, for big companies like.
Speaker 3: These, with billions of dollars of revenue every year, you know,
Speaker 3: those sorts of fines are kind of slaps on the
Speaker 3: wrist too. So we've seen problems in banking, we've seen
Speaker 3: problems with quonscious and there's been some pretty hefty fines,
Speaker 3: but they don't really make a big dent in those
Speaker 3: big companies. But this triple zero problem keeps coming up.
Speaker 3: And when governments tend to just coast along and people.
Speaker 5: Say, well, yeah, this is very serious.
Speaker 3: People could die, one dies, nothing seems to happen, so
Speaker 3: they tend to be very reactive, and I think it's
Speaker 3: probably time that the government had a bit of a
Speaker 3: bigger look at this. So you've got in action by
Speaker 3: the government on quite a lot of things as well
Speaker 3: as the chilkos. So it's really it's kind of a
Speaker 3: joint responsibility in a lot of ways. But Ultimately, for
Speaker 3: something as critical as this, the government kind of got
Speaker 3: to be the last person.
Speaker 2: Standing coming up. Why the government is dragging its feet
Speaker 2: on recommendations that could have prevented this. Michael, I want
Speaker 2: to talk a little more about the government's role here,
Speaker 2: because while it is clear that Optus failed, what is
Speaker 2: the government's responsibility in ensuring that triple zero calls can
Speaker 2: always get through?
Speaker 3: Once upon a time, it wasn't till very long ago
Speaker 3: we had one chelco, which was Telecom Australia that Turenne
Speaker 3: a Telstra.
Speaker 4: Last year, Australia's Telecom invested more in Australia and Australian
Speaker 4: made products than any other company.
Speaker 3: It was privatized into how government competition was introduced before that,
Speaker 3: which is how we got Optus, and we've had a
Speaker 3: reasonably competitive environment in the telecommunications sector, although the incumbent
Speaker 3: still is the one that makes all profits. But yeah,
Speaker 3: these sorts of critical infrastructure services like telecommunications energy, there
Speaker 3: was a lot of privatization that went on without enough
Speaker 3: accountability coming back. I mean, we did have the inquiry
Speaker 3: into Optus, but the fact that eighteen months after that,
Speaker 3: all of those recommendations have not been fulfilled it's supposed
Speaker 3: to have occurred.
Speaker 5: They haven't, and this is all about a lack of urgency.
Speaker 3: I think most of the funding for triple zero comes
Speaker 3: either directly from the government or from a government levy
Speaker 3: that's from the telcos, So that triple zero stuff, he's
Speaker 3: actually government responsibility and improving that system.
Speaker 5: Was part of what came out of that. The previous
Speaker 5: office ATAGE.
Speaker 3: And the government you know, let it linger, and so
Speaker 3: I think they do bear some responsibility here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, tell me more about that. As you say, when
Speaker 2: this happened in the past, it triggered an inquiry, the
Speaker 2: Bean Review.
Speaker 1: So why do you think.
Speaker 2: It is that that has not resulted in the change
Speaker 2: that would be needed to have prevented what has just occurred.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there are eighteen recommendations about a whole bunch of stuff.
Speaker 3: The harder stuff was still not being implemented, particularly this
Speaker 3: setting up of the Triplo custodian inside the department, and
Speaker 3: that to me seems like a really tea recommendation that
Speaker 3: you've actually got someone that is really having a good
Speaker 3: look at the system, talking to the telcos making sure
Speaker 3: their testing is right.
Speaker 5: Now.
Speaker 3: I think anacot Well said that has been set up,
Speaker 3: but it's actually not yet underway. What that actually means
Speaker 3: I don't know, but clearly it's not working yet and
Speaker 3: you would think that eighteen months after something like that happened.
Speaker 3: For that not to be in place after eight months,
Speaker 3: I think is that's a little bit of a shame
Speaker 3: you on the government and.
Speaker 2: The Communications Minister Annaka Wells. She's fairly new to that portfolio,
Speaker 2: so what sense do you get of her of how
Speaker 2: likely she is to look into these issues.
Speaker 5: Well, certainly to sharpen up her interest in the portfolio.
Speaker 3: Look, people inside the sector have said that she's not
Speaker 3: as engaged with the sector as the previous minister, who
Speaker 3: did have a background in telecoms. Indeed, if you look
Speaker 3: back to the previous ministers, we had Paul Fletcher for
Speaker 3: quite some time in the coalition government before, Mishare Royland,
Speaker 3: Mitch Firefield before him, and Malcolm Turnbull. All of those
Speaker 3: people did have quite a lot of experience or background
Speaker 3: in either tell coos or technology.
Speaker 5: Amateur Wealth doesn't.
Speaker 3: Have any of that experience and tell thoms is a
Speaker 3: very very very complex business. I mean, as we've talked
Speaker 3: about this, with a mobile network then you've got landline
Speaker 3: networkson that, you've got to run internet services. There's customer
Speaker 3: call centers, there's marketing, there's office and talks to have
Speaker 3: a bunch of shops. So they're vertically integrated businesses with
Speaker 3: lots of different moving parts. And it requires a very
Speaker 3: engaged minister and staff and department to make sure that
Speaker 3: the companies that are looking after telecommunications are doing their
Speaker 3: jobs properly. And this incident, and it's such a dreadful
Speaker 3: thing when you know people are dead because infrastructure fails.
Speaker 3: But this incident really should make I think the government
Speaker 3: have a very good look at what's happening in teller communications.
Speaker 3: It's always been problematic because we have such a huge
Speaker 3: country with not too many people, so it's expensive compared
Speaker 3: to somewhere like Hong Kong or Singapore to provide communications
Speaker 3: infrastructure in Australia.
Speaker 5: The only thing that can stop this.
Speaker 3: Happening is for companies like Office and Telster and votifone
Speaker 3: and the other big telecommunications companies TPG to make sure
Speaker 3: all their processes work, to make sure they've got fail
Speaker 3: safe and back up and all that sort of thing.
Speaker 3: And let's just look at it through what happened with
Speaker 3: the NBN. Yeah, successive governments were very frustrated that the
Speaker 3: big telecommunications companies weren't rolling up out fast enough broadband
Speaker 3: quickly enough, so they took the decision.
Speaker 5: In the end to use public money to build the NBN.
Speaker 5: Perhaps they need to have.
Speaker 3: A look at the mobile networks as well, which would
Speaker 3: take a lot of the pain away from companies trying
Speaker 3: to service a handful of people very far away that
Speaker 3: puts a lot of money, and just to take some
Speaker 3: of that financial pressure off the networks so they can
Speaker 3: really focus on getting these things right, the things that
Speaker 3: they're supposed.
Speaker 5: To be doing well.
Speaker 2: Michael, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much.
Speaker 1: Really seven I am. We'll be back tomorrow with an
Speaker 1: interview with New York Times journalist Jonathan Swann. He's revealing
Speaker 1: your book, co authored by Maggie Haberman, takes us inside
Speaker 1: Donald Trump's second term, a presidency that he says is
Speaker 1: more disciplined, more secretive, and more dangerous than the first when.
Speaker 8: You understand it through the lens of you know, I
Speaker 8: want to be Napoleon. I'm being slightly glipped saying that,
Speaker 8: but not really I want to be the capital g
Speaker 8: great man of history of our time. I want to
Speaker 8: expand the American land mass, make Venezuela into a fifty
Speaker 8: first state with a pliant leader who's more like a governor.
Speaker 8: Take their oil, reshape ran, take greenland, you know whatever.
Speaker 8: You start to understand why he's willing to roll the
Speaker 8: dice in the way that he's rolling the dice this term,
Speaker 8: which he certainly wasn't willing to do it the first time.
Speaker 1: I'm Daniel James. Thanks for listening.