1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 1: It is the probably one of the most significant colonial 2 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:09,879 Speaker 1: sources that we have, and he's been kind of saddling 3 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: neglected except by me, because it's such a complicated character. 4 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: He's so the good is so interwoven with the evil, 5 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: it's really hard to pull them apart. 6 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 2: I'm Jen Kelly from The Herald Son and this is 7 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 2: In Black and White, a podcast about some of Australia's 8 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 2: forgotten characters. I need to tell you up front that 9 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 2: today's episode will not be for everyone, but for those 10 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 2: who choose to listen, it's one of the most compelling 11 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 2: and disturbing episodes we've produced of this podcast. Just a 12 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:50,919 Speaker 2: warning to listeners, this episode contains extremely dark content and 13 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:55,319 Speaker 2: graphic details of the deaths of Indigenous people, particularly in 14 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 2: relation to the horrific crime of grave robbing. Today we 15 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 2: are speaking with Tasmanian historian Cassandra Pybus, who is the 16 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 2: best selling author of Traganini, who we spoke with four 17 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 2: years ago about that wonderful book. Now Cassandra is here 18 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 2: to talk about her new book, which is called A 19 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 2: Very Secret Trade, The Dark story of Gentlemen collectors in Tasmania, 20 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 2: and she'll talk about one of those collectors in particular 21 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 2: who was named George Augustus Robinson. Welcome back to the podcast, Cassandra. 22 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,119 Speaker 1: I'm delighted to be here now. 23 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,320 Speaker 2: The last time we spoke was back in twenty twenty 24 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:44,479 Speaker 2: when we talked about your last book, TRAGANINNI Journey through 25 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 2: the Apocalypse, which has now sold over thirty thousand copies. 26 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 2: So well done, very well done. 27 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: How you like it now? 28 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 2: That was such a compelling story and if any listeners 29 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 2: want to hear that episode, they should scroll back to 30 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 2: March twenty three, twenty twenty, and I highly recommend it 31 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 2: was such an amazing episode to listen to be Cassandra, 32 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 2: I thought that it was an obvious starting point for 33 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 2: us today because it was towards the end of you 34 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 2: writing that book that you first stumbled across this horrific 35 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 2: secret from the past. Can you explain what you found 36 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 2: and how it all unraveled. 37 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 1: Well, I was just about to send my manuscript to 38 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: the final manuscript to the publisher, and I thought, oh, 39 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: I just better double tech something. The man who transcribed 40 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:39,079 Speaker 1: George Augustus Robinson's journals on which most of Chugliny is based, 41 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: has an archive up in Lonceston, and I thought there 42 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: must be something in there that I might need to see, 43 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: or something that I've missed. And so I'm sitting in 44 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: this little archive and lon system push it, going through things, 45 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: and I suddenly see this letter he's transcribed from a 46 00:02:55,760 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 1: colonial lawyer who basically name didn't mean much to me, 47 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: who describes that in the museum of the Royal Society 48 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: of which he is the curator, the honorary curator, they 49 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: had the complete skeleton of one of tugging in his 50 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: best friends, who died several years before she did. And 51 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: I was just literally for a moment stop breathing. I 52 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: was so shocked, so shocked to read this, And I thought, goodness, 53 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: if this shocks me, who else is going to be 54 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: shocked by this? And what more is there? And so 55 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: I go and find his letterbook, his business letter books, 56 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: his lawyer's letter books. It's full of stuff about wills 57 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: and you know, interest payments and stuff like that and 58 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: touched away and there are several letters to overseas museums 59 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: about the skeletons that he's complete and perfect skeletons that 60 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: he's sending them, that he has gone to great expense, 61 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: and personal trouble to get from the graves of Aboriginal 62 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: people on Flinders Island and wait for it at Oyster Cove. 63 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: And who knew, Well, no one knew, because this is 64 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: a very secretive business, and as the title of my 65 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 1: book suggests, a very secret trade. So I thought, oh, 66 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 1: here's something. And so it's taken years and years and 67 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: years of work to uncover a whole network of grave robbing, 68 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: basically so much so that I would think that there 69 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: was not one a known Aboriginal burial site. And I 70 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: think it's important to know that the indigenous people of 71 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: Tasmania burnt their dead, cremated their dead, and so that 72 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: it was only after they came into contact with them 73 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: were put into what some people would refer to as 74 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: concentration camps, but or settlements offshore settlement at Flinders Island, 75 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: where they buried in traditional kind of Christian burial, even 76 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: if they weren't Christian. And so therefore all those known 77 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: burial sites eventually were raided for their schleetal remains. How's 78 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 1: that for shocking? 79 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 2: That is shocking. And interestingly enough, Tragerini had always made 80 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 2: it clear what she wanted to happen to her body 81 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 2: after she died, didn't she? 82 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: Yes, she got a very sympathetic clergyman downe at Oyster 83 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: Cove where that she were. She was the last survivor 84 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: to row her out into the middle of the very 85 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: deep and very broad don Tree Casto Channel and said 86 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: to him, bury me here, it's the deepest place. Promised me, 87 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: promise me. Because she knew what would happen to her body, 88 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,840 Speaker 1: and there was attempts to make to bury her secretly 89 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: and to make sure that nobody got hold of her body, 90 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 1: but they did two years later. Some years after that 91 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: it was put on public display. 92 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 2: So you think she was quite aware of this practice. 93 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 1: Of course she was aware of it. They've been digging 94 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: up the graves of Oyster co for at least fifteen 95 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: years before she died. I discovered and who was it 96 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: who was organizing that. Two separate governors, two separate governors, 97 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: first Governor gor Brown and then Governor James Duquet, trying 98 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: to please people in London who were collecting these remains 99 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: because they considered the Tasmanian First people to be a 100 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 1: completely unique race, completely unique, nothing like anybody else in 101 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:49,359 Speaker 1: the world. They placed them somewhere between neanderthor Man and 102 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 1: modern man. And so they thought, oh, these are really curious. 103 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,039 Speaker 1: You know, rare rare verity is a big thing if 104 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: you're a collector. And there's a lot of nonsense talked 105 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: about this being a scientific inquiry, and it was scientific 106 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: in so far as they decided that this were These 107 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: were the skulls mostly what they were interested in of 108 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: a people unlike any other people. But my but they 109 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: did very little. They've never done very much scientific investigation 110 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: on these skeletal remains. I think it was really about 111 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: collecting verities. 112 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 2: Now, your new book A Very Secret Trade tells the 113 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 2: story of what you term grave robbers or gentlemen collectors 114 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 2: as they're called in Tasmania. But today we're going to 115 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 2: tell the story of one in particular who featured very 116 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 2: heavily in Tuggerini's story. And there's obviously a lot of 117 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 2: crossover in the two stories. So where does Robinson's Where 118 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 2: does Robinson's story begin? 119 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: Well, basically, he comes from London. He was a working 120 00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: class Londoner. He was a bricklayer. I think came to 121 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: the colony in the late twenties, eighteen twenties and set 122 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: up building houses. Quite successful builder he became. But of course, 123 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: you know, the colony is just a kind of mirror 124 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: image of the imperial world. So of course his London 125 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: lower class accent would have always given him away. He 126 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: would never have been able to pass himself off as 127 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: a gentleman or anything close to one, so that he 128 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: might have been making quite a bit of money as 129 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: a tradesman, that he would always be looked down on 130 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: by the colonial elite. And so he seems to have 131 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: a genuine, deep religious conviction about saving the indigenous people 132 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: of Tasmania from destruction that he could see was you know, inevitable, 133 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 1: and bringing them into the light of God. And so 134 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: he went around Tasmania over a period of four years 135 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: with a handful of his mission guides or hissabled companions 136 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: as they called them, including Kragnini and her husband Worriedy, 137 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: conciliating the different clan groups all around Tasmania and persuading 138 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: them that if they didn't come with him and put 139 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: themselves under the Governor's protection, they would be annihilated. And 140 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: I think they could see enough of the riding on 141 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: the wall to often agree with him that they that 142 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: their life, their way of life was completely under attack 143 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: and they would not survive. But others were just persuaded 144 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: by at gunpoint eventually that this is what they should do. 145 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: And he never understood until quite near the end that 146 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,959 Speaker 1: the intention was to remove these people from the island 147 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: colony completely. And so he then becomes the instrument of 148 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: taking them to a settlement on Flinder's Island in the 149 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: middle of the Bass Strait, knowing full well that this 150 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:17,439 Speaker 1: is a betrayal, fundamental betrayal of what he had promised them, 151 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: that they would be somehow allowed to stay in, if 152 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: not exactly their own country, at least in a part 153 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: of the country that they had the islands they had 154 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: inhabited for forty thousand years. And so then he becomes 155 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: the commandant of the Aboriginal settlement on Flinders Island. That's 156 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: the title he's given, and so this is a huge 157 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: step up in the world for him. But it's terrible 158 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: because not unsurprisingly, these less than three hundred people who 159 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 1: just died. There's a myth that circulated around when I 160 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: was a younger person in Tasmania about how they died 161 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: of a broken heart or they died of loneliness because 162 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: they'd been taken away from their country. They died of tuberculosis, 163 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: they died of measles, they died of they basically tuberculosis 164 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: ran rife through that population, and so they were all 165 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: very susceptible to any kind of respiratory viruses that came 166 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: in when ships came to bring the salted food that 167 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: they were being fed, so the water they drank was salty. 168 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 1: Their health was just they went from being very healthy 169 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 1: people to being extremely unhealthy people who died very quickly, 170 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: and they had no proper medical treatment. And so he 171 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:47,319 Speaker 1: just wanted to get out of there as soon as 172 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: he could and became the protector of the protector interesting 173 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: terminology of Aborigines in Victoria, which was then called the 174 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 1: Port Phillip Settlement. 175 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 2: Did he put his hand up for that role? 176 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: Oh, he begged and begged and he basically created the role, 177 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: the idea of the role, and then begged and cajoled 178 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: and wheedled the governor of New South Wales to give 179 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: it to him. 180 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 2: And why was that? Was that because he saw that 181 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 2: as a way to move up in the world, or. 182 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,439 Speaker 1: He thought the way to get away from the graveyard. 183 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: He was living in and to take the remaining people 184 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: with him, but the governor wouldn't let him take all 185 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: the people from why Berlina. He said that he could 186 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: take one family, now that would have been drugging and 187 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: we're already and we're ready his two sons. But in 188 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: fact he couldn't leave behind the people who'd been with 189 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,319 Speaker 1: him for all these years, and he took them all, 190 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: fourteen people and because they were all family to him, 191 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: and that caused a huge amount of trouble for him 192 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: in Victoria because he then became responsible for them. Because 193 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: these are Tasmanians, they're not Victorians. They've got nothing in 194 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 1: common with the people. They've been separated from Victoria twenty 195 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: five thousand years. He got nothing in common with people 196 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: from Victoria. It was a disastrous thing to do, and 197 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:12,959 Speaker 1: basically they were Eventually what was left of them were 198 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: returned to Flinders Island, including Drugnenni and he then went 199 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: on to have a short lived career in Victoria before 200 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: he retired and went to live in England. And in 201 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: that time he made himself a very rich man because 202 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,959 Speaker 1: he traded in land in Port Phillip when it became 203 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: became Melbourne, and then there was the gold rush and 204 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: he was one of the first people to buy gold 205 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: nuggets from guys who came in from finding the gold. 206 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: And then he had huge land grants in Tasmania that 207 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: he sold, and he sold them all up and went 208 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: to England as a very wealthy man. His first wife 209 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: had died. He left all his kids behind, bereft and 210 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: without any money into the gentry class because they had 211 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:04,199 Speaker 1: the money to do it, and then went off to 212 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: Europe for three years and taught himself foreign languages, which 213 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: got rid of his accent. 214 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 2: So you talked about how his motivations were genuine at 215 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 2: the beginning. Did they stay that way? Did he always 216 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 2: believe that he was doing the right. 217 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 3: Thing by these aboriginal people, or did his motivations changed 218 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 3: because he obviously made a lot of money. So did 219 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 3: he just become very greedy and see this as a 220 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 3: way to make his fortune. 221 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: Anyone who comes to the colony of Van Diemen's Land, 222 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: as Tasmeia was known as a free settler is wishing 223 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: to increase their status in the world and make money. 224 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: Has five children and he's got to provide for those children. 225 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: So always in what he is doing. There is this 226 00:14:55,800 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: pecuniary interest in land grants, getting more the lang grands, 227 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: in particular getting as a tradesman, he wouldn't have normally 228 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: got land grants. He gets a lot of lang grands 229 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: as a reward. But he would always have said, and 230 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: I have often defended him to a degree of saying, well, Georgia, 231 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: Gustus Robinson's the best, you're going to the best of them. 232 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: He always believed that bringing these people into the light 233 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: of into God's life would save them. He didn't expect 234 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: that God would allow them all to die, and so 235 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: that's why there's this sort of desperate desire to try 236 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: and move them to Victoria where they might be healthier 237 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: and they could integrate with the Victorian first people. And 238 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: of course that didn't happen, because that's not how the 239 00:15:55,200 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: world works. And in Victoria that the task that faced 240 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: him with the Victorian clans was so overwhelming that he 241 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: just couldn't handle it. And so building a big house 242 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: for himself in Victoria and buying up land cheaply to 243 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: sell once prices boomed with the gold Russian stuff became 244 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: much more of a driver for him because I think 245 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: he couldn't face the fact that he was failing at 246 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: his god given task of saving the indigenous people. So 247 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: there's always been this balance between his ideal his idealism, 248 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: and his his desire to rise up in the in 249 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: the status he felt bitterly the way in which even 250 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: the convicts used to make fun of him, how lowly 251 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: his status was, and he wanted to have you know, 252 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: he wanted he wanted respect, he wanted to be treated 253 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: like a gentleman, and eventually he was. 254 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 2: Now. I'd love you soon to take us through some 255 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 2: of the very specific discoveries that you made about George 256 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 2: Augustus Robinson, but first to understand that we really need 257 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 2: to hear about his journal. So can you explain to 258 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:22,439 Speaker 2: us the family connection that you have to Robinson. 259 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: And ancestor mi colonial ancestor. The first first Pybus to 260 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: come to Tasmania took up the first land grant on 261 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: big Land Grant on Brunie Island, and within months of that, 262 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: that was in eighteen twenty nine, George Augustus Robinson was 263 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 1: given a very small grand Land Grand immediately adjacent to 264 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 1: the Pybus Land Grand to set up a kind of 265 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 1: mission station. It didn't last for very long, because an 266 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: epidemic of influenza wiped out the people of Bruney Island 267 00:17:54,920 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: very quickly in eighteen twenty nine. But that those two people, 268 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: Robinson and Richard Pybus, became close friends and stayed close friends, 269 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: so that Richard Pybus was his agent when he was 270 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 1: in Victoria, and he sold his property for him and 271 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: looked after his property and then sold it for him. 272 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: And I was directed to read George Augustus Robinson's journals. 273 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,439 Speaker 1: Turns out he was a great scribbler, and he wrote 274 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 1: a journal long often item every day by the great 275 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 1: Lindall Ryan, Australian historian, to whom I'm very indebted, who 276 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: died yesterday, oh published which has touched it. And she said, ah, 277 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: you know you should read Georgia Augustus Robinson's journal. He 278 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: talks about your grand great grandfather, great great grandfather. Oh 279 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 1: oh god no. And so I started reading this journal, 280 00:18:55,520 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: this daily account of his association with the people are 281 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: the first people of the island, and what he was 282 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 1: doing and the justifications he was making about what he 283 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 1: was doing and removing these people, and it was it 284 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: just turned my life around. And now I hear I 285 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: am with my third book about George Augustus Robinson and 286 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: his vision for the people of Tasmania and where that led. 287 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: It is probably one of the most significant colonial sources 288 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: that we have, and he's been kind of saddly neglected 289 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: except by me, because it's such a complicated character. He's 290 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:38,880 Speaker 1: so the good is so interwoven with the evil, it's 291 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 1: really hard to pull them apart. 292 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 2: So let's start to go through what you discovered in 293 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 2: the journals. So Robinson returned to Australia before leaving Australia 294 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 2: for good. 295 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 3: What did he get up to there? 296 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: Well, basically he I'll go back to the time that 297 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 1: he was trying to get out of going to staying 298 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: at Yvelina and just burying more people. And he was 299 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: visited by the new governor of Van Dema's Land, Sir 300 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 1: John Franklin and his wife Lady Jane Franklin, both famous names, 301 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: or certainly Lady Jane Franklins, for very briefly for a 302 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:28,239 Speaker 1: sort of tour of duty of the Aboriginal settlement. And 303 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 1: in order to get to go to Victoria, he needed 304 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 1: the new governor to give his permission, and so he 305 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,959 Speaker 1: wanted to curry favor with the new governor, and so 306 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: he got the people to dance for them and to 307 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 1: pretend to be aboriginies for them, as normally they weren't 308 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 1: allowed to they weren't allowed to take their clothes off, 309 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: and they weren't allowed to wear oka, and they weren't 310 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: allowed to have ceremony, but he let them do it 311 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: to entertain, to entertain the governor and his wife. And 312 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 1: as they were leaving, Lady Jane Franklin asked him if 313 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: she could he could get her some Aboriginal skulls, and 314 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 1: he had noticed that in his diary, And then a 315 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 1: bit later in his journal he notes that he was 316 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: attending auta he demanded that there be autops he's done 317 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 1: on the bodies as people died, because he wanted to establish, 318 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: if possible, what was they were all dying of, And 319 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:27,360 Speaker 1: it was all to do with disease lungs, and there 320 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,400 Speaker 1: it is, he says. He talks about this man called 321 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,360 Speaker 1: Christopher and how he ordered the body decapitated and sent 322 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: it off to someone else to be have the flesh 323 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:44,199 Speaker 1: taken off the skull and then buried the rest of 324 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: the mangled body. And then a little while later there 325 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 1: was another, a woman, and then a little while after 326 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: that there was the woman's husband, who was a major 327 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: figure in the you know what we might have referred 328 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 1: to as the chief and he took a trip up 329 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: to see the governor and could present his case about 330 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: why should be the protector of Aborigines in in across 331 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 1: Bastradia in what became Victoria, And he undoubtedly took those 332 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,400 Speaker 1: three skulls with him, And that lady Jane Franklin donated 333 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: those skulls to the Royal College of Surgeons in eighteen 334 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 1: fifty four. Shouldn't say where she got them from, but 335 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 1: she donated three Tasmanian skulls, and I can only presume 336 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 1: that they were the three skulls that George Augustus Robinson 337 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: took from the people that he'd been caring for and 338 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: looking after and was and had vowed that he would 339 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: look you know, that he would protect them. And I 340 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,199 Speaker 1: also discovered that at the same time that he was 341 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: weedling to get the amulets of the dead that they 342 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: would wear around their neck, small bones from the body 343 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: of their children or their loved ones, and he would 344 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 1: get hold of them and say he'd keep them for 345 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: safe keeping, and in fact he was keeping them for 346 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: a collection which he eventually took to England with him. 347 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: So that much I knew about him from his journal, 348 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: But it was only until I was looking into his 349 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 1: life in Bath that I found out that what I 350 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: had written about in his journal for those three skulls 351 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: was routine. And then he probably left why Billina with 352 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: at least a dozen Kasmanian skulls as well as these 353 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: amulets of the dead and some other skletal material and 354 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:49,399 Speaker 1: bits of their hair, obviously building a collection. And I 355 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: can tell you I was pretty shocked about this, because 356 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 1: I'd always given him much more the benefit of the doubt. 357 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: He knew, he knew, absolutely knew these people very very well. 358 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,920 Speaker 1: He knew they had a complete abhorrence, a horror of 359 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 1: anybody interfering with their bodies after death. He knew that, 360 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 1: but he did it anyway, And to my mind, that 361 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 1: makes him the most abhorrent of all of these skull collectors, 362 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: because he understood at a profound level what a terrible 363 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: betrayal this was. 364 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 2: Tell us more about the journal entries and exactly what 365 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 2: they said. Was he talking about them in sort of 366 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 2: scientific terms or medical terms. Was he showing any sort 367 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 2: of sense of guilt. 368 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 1: No, he was just being completely pragmatic about it. He 369 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 1: describes the state of their diseased lungs and then casually, 370 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: basically casually says, you know, I ordered the skull that 371 00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: I ordered the body to capitate it in the skull 372 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: s off for you know, to be stripped, and then 373 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: he doesn't say anything more about and then then then 374 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: their extentry will be talking about the funeral. Now, it 375 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: was quite interesting that before George Augustus Robinson came to 376 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 1: Flinder's Island and there were other people in charge, people 377 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:22,360 Speaker 1: were not buried in coffins, but he insisted that they'd 378 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,439 Speaker 1: be buried in coffins. Now I think he insisted they 379 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: would be buried in coffin was because the bodies were 380 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: so mangled by the time the surgeon had cut them 381 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: open for him to look at and take bits off, 382 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: that the people would be just horrified and so distressed 383 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: if they got to see the state of the body. 384 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 1: So they would have these Christian burials of mangled bodies 385 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: in what whilst he was going off with their heads. 386 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 1: I don't know how many, but I can account for 387 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: about a dozen. 388 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 2: Now you were able to visit Robinson's final resting place 389 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 2: last year, weren't you. Can you tell us about that? 390 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, it took a bit of finding. I always knew 391 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: he was buried in Bath, and I knew that there 392 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: was a kind of engraved thing I thought on her headstone. 393 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: It turned out he didn't have a headstone to say, 394 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: you know, here lies George Augustus Robinson, the Protector, the 395 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: Protector and Pacificator of the Aboriginals of Australia, or I 396 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: think that's what it says. But the two terms that 397 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: stuck in my mind were protector and pacificator. And it 398 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,919 Speaker 1: was a graveyard that was clearly a private graveyard that 399 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: was clearly for the gentry class, that had huge, great 400 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: statues and stuff, and you know, all that kind of 401 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:49,439 Speaker 1: fancy Victorian graveyard. But you know, the wealthy people of 402 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 1: Bath were buried there, and that's exactly where he wanted 403 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: to find himself. But it was really only until I 404 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 1: got up to the top of the hill and looked 405 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: at the extraordinary house that he had built, which was 406 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 1: on the market for four point five million pounds at 407 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: that point, that I realized just how much he had 408 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: managed to turn himself inside aft and into it to 409 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:18,360 Speaker 1: a completely new person. And I always had this suspicion 410 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:23,919 Speaker 1: that there were more too. There was a great, a 411 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: famous skull collector who was sniffing around George Augustus Robinson 412 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,479 Speaker 1: in his later years, trying to get He got some 413 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 1: of the amulets of the dead, and lots of lots 414 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 1: of the wonderful drawings by Thomas Block of his of 415 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,880 Speaker 1: his aboriginal guides. He got all of those of him, 416 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: but he couldn't and he got one skeleton, one skull 417 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: of a boy and one skull of a man. But 418 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: there was the assumption was there that there were many 419 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,919 Speaker 1: more that Robinson wouldn't give him or sell him. And 420 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: so where did they go? I mean, I presume they disappeared. 421 00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 1: And then when I was in the a Museum and 422 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: which apparently had some Tasmanian aboriginal hair, I was looking 423 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 1: at a little card on which a famous anthropologist had 424 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: written that she got this hair from a professor in 425 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,919 Speaker 1: Germany called von Lucian, who had got it from George 426 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:25,439 Speaker 1: Augustus Robinson's widow when he bought seven Tasmanian skulls. So 427 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 1: I count three, go to the Franklins, two go to 428 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: three go to skull collectors I know about England, and 429 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: then there's seven that go to Von Lucian. So that's 430 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: at least a dozen that I know about. And so 431 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: this again is just I mean, it's all very shocking, 432 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: Jen the whole saga, not just Georgia Gousta's Robin, the 433 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: whole saga of what happened to the bodies of the 434 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: Tasmanian First people is all very shocking. But this one 435 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: really cut to the quick for me because I had 436 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: somehow trusted George Gustus Robinson to be a good man 437 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: at heart, and I just couldn't see it in this. 438 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: This was just he bought these skulls and the relics 439 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: of the dead and all kinds of bits and pieces 440 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: that he got from them and the people of Victoria 441 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: back to London in order to prove that to get 442 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: entry into the gentleman class, because they were all these 443 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: gentlemen collectors were really interested in that stuff. It was, 444 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: you know, it was a betrayal. I mean, so the 445 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: protector and pacificator of the first people of this country, 446 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: basically at its root, saw them as a commodity to 447 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: advance his own self interest. Now he's alone in that 448 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: because that's basically part of the course. But I thought 449 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: he was better than that. And you know, it's been 450 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: difficult for me, after thirty years of being attached to 451 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: the journals of the dogged and broken backed journals of 452 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:20,479 Speaker 1: George Augustus Robinson, to realize that his betrayal was that 453 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: deep that he would betray them after death. 454 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 2: And it's amazing when you think about how much he 455 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 2: did turn his life around off the back of his 456 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 2: exploits in Australia. I was interested to see that you 457 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 2: wrote that this house that he lived in in Bath, 458 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 2: that he actually entertained Lady Franklin, so you know, another 459 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 2: skull collector and several other important people who came to 460 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 2: Bath for the. 461 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: Actual He gave one of his skulls to who was 462 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: the president of the Ethnological Society, that he wanted to 463 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: be joined, that he wanted to become. And this is 464 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: what this is, the story behind the whole made is 465 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: that they don't want money. They're not selling these things. 466 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: What they want is to be made a fellow of 467 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: the Royal Society, a fellow as the Theological Society a 468 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: fellow of the Royal Geographic Society, because back down here 469 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: at the end of the world, in a colony, a 470 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: pen or colony at the end of the world, this 471 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: gives them real status because this is the recognition from 472 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: the highest kind of intellectual centers of the center of 473 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 1: the universe, London. And so that's what that's what drives it, 474 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: and that's what drove him. This is a kind of 475 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: recognition of his not you know, being a gentleman and 476 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: living in a big house is one thing, but this is, 477 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: you know, this being admitted as a member and being 478 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: able to entertain these people in his house is the 479 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: living proof that he has become a gentleman. 480 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 2: M Now tell us more about these skull collectors. What 481 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 2: did they do with skulls? Were they put on display 482 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 2: in their homes? 483 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: Eventually, the major driver of it in Tasmania was the 484 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:16,239 Speaker 1: Royal Society of Tasmania, which was initially set up as 485 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: a little scientific society by Lady Jane Franklin, and that 486 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: eventually became got royal assent to be called the Royal 487 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: Society of Tasmania and they started collecting aboriginal remains for 488 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 1: their museum in the eighteen thirties, in eighteen forties, I 489 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: suppose you know, so some people might have had skull 490 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: collections in their family. Now why would they have those 491 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: the world because when they went out on killing parties, 492 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 1: they probably took trophies. So you get they keep getting 493 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: donations from very well to do settlers of aboriginal skulls, 494 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: so you think, well, where did they get those from? 495 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:12,239 Speaker 1: And then it becomes a big issue in England that 496 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: the Tasmanians are about to become extinct. You know, we 497 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 1: know about how they go on about the file the scene. 498 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 1: Imagine how they're going to go on about a form 499 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: of human life that's about to become extinct. And so 500 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: there's this big scramble to get hold of aboriginal remains. 501 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: And so the only way you're going to get them 502 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: and to be sure they're aboriginal is to go into 503 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: the grave sites. And the most obvious one is the 504 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: one just outside of Hobart or is to Cove where 505 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 1: people are still living, including drugging in and so there's 506 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: an issue about you have to be very secretive about it. 507 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: You've got to do it when they're away hunting, or 508 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 1: take them up to town to go to a special event, 509 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: like have their photograph taken, and that's when you dig 510 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: up the graves. So this is why trugging In knows 511 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 1: that this is going on, because she's not stupid. And besides, 512 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: everybody a noyster cove who lived around there, the settlers 513 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 1: who lived around there, would have known about it because 514 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: some of them would have been employed to dig up 515 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 1: the grades. And so that's why she knows that this 516 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: is what's going to happen to her, because it's been 517 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 1: happening for since. The first one that I know about 518 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,720 Speaker 1: is in eighteen sixty two and she dies in eighteen 519 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 1: seventy six, so there's a long time in which this 520 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:35,319 Speaker 1: is systematically going on. And so they're packaged up and 521 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: sent off in the governors in the governor's postage, so 522 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,719 Speaker 1: that it's not interfered with by you know, anybody. It's 523 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,319 Speaker 1: governor to the Secretary of State. It's like you know, 524 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 1: presidential communications. And so I found out about them in 525 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: the in the in the records of the Secretary of State, 526 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 1: the Duke of Newcastle, because every trace of it has 527 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 1: been removed from the archives here in Tasmania. And then 528 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,840 Speaker 1: I found that those three skulls that I was looking 529 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: for that were taken from graves in eighteen sixty two 530 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: were still in Oxford University. After my prodding and prompting 531 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: and pushing, a new curator came in and lo and 532 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: behold he found them and said, oh, yeah, we have those, 533 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 1: We have those skulls. And so how come you didn't 534 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 1: have them the last time I was here? How come 535 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 1: they've never been shown in the catalog? How come you're 536 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 1: not you're denying the fact that you had them, and 537 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,800 Speaker 1: suddenly now you've got them. And this was a story 538 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 1: that was being repeated time and time again that even 539 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:51,360 Speaker 1: though they were so pleased to have these special, remarkable 540 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: trophies or curiosities or scientific exhibits, however you want to 541 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:01,839 Speaker 1: call it, of this extinct race of people, they were 542 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: being very secretive about it always because they knew that 543 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 1: what they were doing was immoral. And they knew it 544 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,320 Speaker 1: was also, and this is very important, against the law. 545 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: It was against the law to rob graves, even graves 546 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: of people who are not Christians but had been buried properly. 547 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: And so you know, these governors, these secretaries of state, 548 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 1: these professors of anthropology at Oxford University. They knew that 549 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: if this was publicly known, there'd be an outcry about it. 550 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 1: But they did it because you know, collectors, as you 551 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: would people would not just looking at what gets paid 552 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: for the watch of the man who went down on 553 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 1: the ship they hit the iceberg and they paid this 554 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,799 Speaker 1: vast some money to buy his watch, John Asta. They 555 00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 1: know that people will pay a lot of money or 556 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 1: go to a lot of troubled to get what is 557 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 1: rare and has an amazing story attached to it. And 558 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 1: what was rare was a race of people, human beings 559 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 1: you had become extinct. Well, of course they didn't become 560 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:18,320 Speaker 1: extinct as we now know. And also they were the 561 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,319 Speaker 1: same people as the people who occupied Australia, but they 562 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,959 Speaker 1: didn't know that then, and they were just as adaptable 563 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,799 Speaker 1: as anybody else was. But they by the time they 564 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: were all dead, you could make up any stories you 565 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 1: wanted to about them. 566 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 2: So, Cassandra, what happened to the three skulls at Oxford? 567 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:37,359 Speaker 2: Are they still there? 568 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 1: They're still there? 569 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 2: Oh. 570 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: I passed that information onto the Tasmanian Aboriginal Center, who 571 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 1: had been asking to have material returned for thirty years 572 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 1: or more. And most of it had been, but not 573 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 1: these three skulls. And I kind of kept looking at 574 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: the records and thinking, no, there's three skulls on account 575 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 1: for here, and I was assuming they probably got thrown 576 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: out with the trash or something. But no, no, they 577 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 1: still had them. And then there was then the same 578 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,760 Speaker 1: at Cambridge University. I knew that they had once got 579 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:14,440 Speaker 1: five skulls. They had once. I had read the paper 580 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,160 Speaker 1: of a professor there in the nineteenth century talked about 581 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,439 Speaker 1: the Tasmanian skulls he had. But I could find no way. 582 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,880 Speaker 1: And the Tasmanian Averageal Center had been asking and asking, 583 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 1: and the Australian government had been asking about them. Nothing. 584 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,319 Speaker 1: But then suddenly they found them and they said, oh, 585 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 1: do you want to see them. I'm not sure I 586 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 1: want to see them. No, but I guess I should 587 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 1: see them, just to prove that you do have them. 588 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 1: I still have them, And they said, yes, of course, 589 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:45,319 Speaker 1: we will repatriate them. But you've got to jump through 590 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,359 Speaker 1: all these hoops. You know, the lawyers are all in 591 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,240 Speaker 1: charge of this. Now, nothing so simple as to return 592 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,279 Speaker 1: their ancestral remains of the aboriginal people of Tasmania. No 593 00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: that would be that would be too easy. We can't 594 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:00,160 Speaker 1: do that. 595 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 2: So were any of these skulls at the time put 596 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,440 Speaker 2: on display in museums or do they always remain in 597 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 2: private actions? 598 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 1: Well, we don't know how many skulls there might have 599 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 1: been in private collections. I mean, I don't know. When 600 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:18,359 Speaker 1: I say we I think this, who else knows. So 601 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:22,280 Speaker 1: there's undoubtedly they're in private in class cases, in private collections. 602 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,080 Speaker 1: That's where Lady James would have been before she gave 603 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 1: them to the Royal College of Surgeons. They were on 604 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 1: display in the Royal College of Surgeons Hunterian Museum until 605 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,440 Speaker 1: the Second World War when the Hunterian Museum was bombed 606 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,880 Speaker 1: that whole collection was destroyed. They were on display in 607 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:45,239 Speaker 1: the pitt Rivers Museum well into the twentieth century. That 608 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 1: the ones in the pitt Rivers Museum have been repatriated, 609 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: and so yeah, they were on display. I mean, let's 610 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:56,839 Speaker 1: face it, Trumpinese whole skeleton was on display in Tasmania 611 00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:01,799 Speaker 1: until nineteen forty seven, and so when you go to 612 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: the Hunterian Museum, which had the biggest collection, they still 613 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,919 Speaker 1: got human skulls on display from other people haven't been 614 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 1: as the sifference about objecting to it, as the Australian 615 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: Government and the Tasmanian Aboriginal Center has been so yeah, 616 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 1: I mean it's bizarre, but they have it. And they 617 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 1: see they did discover when they did measurements of the 618 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:27,840 Speaker 1: skull that the Aboriginal people of Tasmania seem to be 619 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:32,720 Speaker 1: had the same sized skull brain size as modern people 620 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,279 Speaker 1: as them, and that was a big shock to them. 621 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 1: So instead they lost all interest in skulls and got 622 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,480 Speaker 1: interested in chipped stones instead. So you see, look how 623 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 1: primitive they are. They have their only tools, they've got 624 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:50,400 Speaker 1: a chipped stones. So they shipped out tons and tons 625 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:55,719 Speaker 1: and tons of stones to European and British museums and 626 00:40:55,800 --> 00:41:00,760 Speaker 1: Australian museums is a huge one in Canberra to prove 627 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 1: that they are really, really, really primitive, more primitive than 628 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 1: Stone Age men. 629 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:10,560 Speaker 2: Amazing. Just as part of your research into skull collectors, 630 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,160 Speaker 2: you came across one collector who had more than five 631 00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:16,799 Speaker 2: thousand skulls. Can you tell us about that? 632 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 1: Oh, that's one lusion. This is a German Man that 633 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 1: lady he called for Lady Robinson, which I think is 634 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:30,879 Speaker 1: entertaining that George Augustus Robinson's widow sold his collection too. 635 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:36,320 Speaker 1: He had this massive collection of skulls, which were acquired 636 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:40,279 Speaker 1: eventually by the Natural History Museum in New York on 637 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:42,960 Speaker 1: West Park Avenue. I'm sure anyone who's been to New 638 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,839 Speaker 1: York has senate, not the collection, just the museum. And 639 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 1: most of those skulls came from Africa. They came from 640 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:58,360 Speaker 1: the Herrero and Harmer people Nama people of Namibia as 641 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,800 Speaker 1: who were basically destroyed as a result of a genocidal 642 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:05,920 Speaker 1: war that was waged against them in the early twentieth century. 643 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:11,480 Speaker 1: And they herded these people who were not killed outright 644 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,839 Speaker 1: into concentration camps. That's what they called them, and that's 645 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 1: where the term comes from. And he von Lucian had 646 00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:22,839 Speaker 1: people who worked in the camps, getting the people who 647 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,320 Speaker 1: living is a really grotesque story, living in the camps, 648 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 1: to strip the bodies as there dead, for their skeletal remains. 649 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:35,279 Speaker 1: And he got their skulls, thousands of them. And so 650 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 1: when he got the skull from George Augustus Robinson's widow, 651 00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,759 Speaker 1: what he says about it is really very interesting. He 652 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 1: says her husband was the commandant of the camp in Tasmania, 653 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:53,840 Speaker 1: and so that's how he has accessed to these undeniably 654 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 1: unique skulls. So he saw that what he was looking 655 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,239 Speaker 1: at was people whose skulls had been taken from a 656 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:06,479 Speaker 1: concentration camp, because that's what he was familiar with. And 657 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,680 Speaker 1: where I read that, I thought, yeah, he's absolutely right 658 00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:12,640 Speaker 1: about that. That's exactly what was going on. The first 659 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,040 Speaker 1: of all, you take people, you drive them off the island, 660 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,759 Speaker 1: you put them on an island in the middle of nowhere, 661 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,319 Speaker 1: You give them no decent food, you give them no 662 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,080 Speaker 1: decent medical attention, You wait for them to die, and 663 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:28,359 Speaker 1: then you commodify their bodies and turn them into museum exis. Now. 664 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,439 Speaker 1: If that is not a description of genocide, I don't 665 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,720 Speaker 1: know what is. And it was something that von Lucien 666 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:39,400 Speaker 1: recognized absolutely that what he was looking at coming from Tasmania, 667 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,160 Speaker 1: it was the same thing that it had coming from 668 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,680 Speaker 1: the German West African colonies. Something the colonists did. 669 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,239 Speaker 2: So, as you say, George Augustus Robinson was not the 670 00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 2: worst of the traders in Indigenous Human Remains. We've already 671 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,319 Speaker 2: talked about Lady Jane Franklin. Who are some of the 672 00:43:58,320 --> 00:43:59,800 Speaker 2: others that you mentioned in the book. 673 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,200 Speaker 1: Probably the worst of them is the man. I started 674 00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:08,440 Speaker 1: with the lawyer Morton Allport, whose letter I read about 675 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,919 Speaker 1: how he had the complete perfect skeleton because this one 676 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,440 Speaker 1: had never been buried. This one was taken from the 677 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:21,600 Speaker 1: morgue secretly. Clander Stanley spirited away and stripped of its 678 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,520 Speaker 1: you know, flesh as soon as she died, as soon 679 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,759 Speaker 1: as she died, which started the hospital taken away to 680 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:32,799 Speaker 1: get a skeleton with the permission of the Premier if not, 681 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:37,600 Speaker 1: and the governor. But all secret, nothing written down, you know, 682 00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,839 Speaker 1: nothing that's going to come back to bite them. And 683 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:52,440 Speaker 1: he then started to get skulls for institutions in London 684 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,239 Speaker 1: and then moved from skulls onto four skeletons once he 685 00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,919 Speaker 1: realized that there were no skulls left at Oyster Cove. 686 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,080 Speaker 1: He then got someone to find where people were buried 687 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:07,680 Speaker 1: at Flinders Island and exhumeed seven perfect skeletons as he 688 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:12,160 Speaker 1: calls them, from there to center museums. And basically he 689 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:18,799 Speaker 1: was completely, you know, most all about this in these 690 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,319 Speaker 1: letters that he wrote to these museums, saying, you know, 691 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,640 Speaker 1: this is a perfect skeleton, and I knew these people. 692 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:27,080 Speaker 1: I can guarantee who they were I mean in some 693 00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,160 Speaker 1: cases they actually gave them their names. You know, this 694 00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:32,480 Speaker 1: woman's name is Bessie. I knew her well, and he 695 00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,120 Speaker 1: knew her because his wife was a very close friend 696 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:39,319 Speaker 1: of the superintendent of the Aboriginal station at Oysterco. He 697 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:41,800 Speaker 1: used to go down there and visit them, probably measuring 698 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:44,200 Speaker 1: them up with his eyes. You know, as soon as 699 00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,800 Speaker 1: they were in the grave, he had them out of there. Now, 700 00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:52,480 Speaker 1: no one knew that about him. I just I thought, well, 701 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:56,160 Speaker 1: that's not quite true, because obviously the person who transcribed 702 00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:59,600 Speaker 1: the letter that I read knew about him. And when 703 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:04,440 Speaker 1: I went looking for his letters for further evidence, I 704 00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:08,520 Speaker 1: discovered that the whole letter books had been transcribed onto 705 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,319 Speaker 1: a typewriter, which means that it was quart some time 706 00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:15,680 Speaker 1: ago that was done. And so people did know that 707 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,919 Speaker 1: he had done these things. And yet it never got 708 00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:23,640 Speaker 1: into the public discourse. It had never become a public 709 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:29,160 Speaker 1: scandal ever. You know, people were still protecting this. Oh well, 710 00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:31,160 Speaker 1: we better not talk about that, you know, we better 711 00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:35,240 Speaker 1: not let anybody know about that. That's too horrible. Besides, 712 00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,600 Speaker 1: our library is called the in all Port Library. Will 713 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:40,879 Speaker 1: be in you know, we'll be in deep trouble they're 714 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,120 Speaker 1: in deep trouble now, but it's taken all this time 715 00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:49,000 Speaker 1: for this horrendous story to be made public. And again again, 716 00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:51,880 Speaker 1: he knew these people. He used to go down and 717 00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:54,719 Speaker 1: play with them and talk to them, and you know, 718 00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:58,960 Speaker 1: he knew who they were and he could boast to 719 00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:03,160 Speaker 1: the museum. He sent Bessie's skeleton too, that he knew 720 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:08,000 Speaker 1: her personally and that he could guarantee she was pure Tasmanian. 721 00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:13,120 Speaker 1: So he's the one I most dislike. But he doesn't 722 00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:15,400 Speaker 1: cut to the quick the way George, because you know, 723 00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:21,080 Speaker 1: he's just an amoral man. He wasn't going around parading 724 00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,280 Speaker 1: as the savior of the Aboriginal people. 725 00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:25,799 Speaker 2: Now. One of the other ones that you mentioned that 726 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:30,080 Speaker 2: was worse was a Victorian pastoralist named Murray. 727 00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:33,640 Speaker 1: Black Mary Blarry Well. One of the things is I 728 00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:40,520 Speaker 1: focused on Tasmania only because the Tasmanians are the apex skeleton, 729 00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:45,440 Speaker 1: if you like, in the whole skeletal collecting business at 730 00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,319 Speaker 1: the very top of the tasman is the rarest, the 731 00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:54,040 Speaker 1: most remarkable, unique. But the Aboriginal people of Tasmy of 732 00:47:54,280 --> 00:48:01,040 Speaker 1: Australia were also big target and the professor of medicine 733 00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:04,399 Speaker 1: at Melbourne University. Was a big collector. He had quite 734 00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,800 Speaker 1: a few Tasmanian skulls, but he also had a massive 735 00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:12,520 Speaker 1: collection of Victorian and New South Wales people that was 736 00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:16,320 Speaker 1: collected by a pastor that's called Murray Black who lived 737 00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:21,480 Speaker 1: on the Murray River and he collected he just robbed 738 00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:25,880 Speaker 1: graves willy nilly, and he's he writes of you know, 739 00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:29,920 Speaker 1: not having enough crates to put all the skeletons in it, 740 00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:31,840 Speaker 1: that he dug up in and bought He had a 741 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:34,200 Speaker 1: lot of crates, he had like forty fifty something like that, 742 00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,920 Speaker 1: and that he just threw the through the other skeletons 743 00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:44,040 Speaker 1: that in the river. And then he was collecting for 744 00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:47,480 Speaker 1: an institute in Canberra as well, and basically he collected 745 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:54,240 Speaker 1: tens of thousands of bones, like massive, and he's probably 746 00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,600 Speaker 1: not even the worst of them. There was another one 747 00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:00,279 Speaker 1: in South Australia who was the coroner and also the 748 00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:07,160 Speaker 1: chief medical officer, whose name was Smith, Ramsey Smith, and 749 00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:11,480 Speaker 1: anybody came through his hands. You know, they weren't always Aboriginal. 750 00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:14,720 Speaker 1: They were made people who were seen to be mentally 751 00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:22,000 Speaker 1: deficient as well, but huge numbers of Aboriginal he just 752 00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,920 Speaker 1: basically got his hands on anybody who died, and if 753 00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:26,919 Speaker 1: they were of interest to him, he would just take 754 00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:31,560 Speaker 1: their goals. And he's the major supplier of aboriginal material 755 00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:36,879 Speaker 1: to the University of Edinburgh, which rewarded him by making him, 756 00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:41,600 Speaker 1: of course a fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh. 757 00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:45,879 Speaker 1: Now somebody else can write about Ramsey Smith if they've 758 00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:48,359 Speaker 1: got the stomach for it, or about Murray Black if 759 00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:50,279 Speaker 1: they've got the stomach for it. I'm not going to 760 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:55,319 Speaker 1: do it. I can't stand this stuff. When I was 761 00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:57,960 Speaker 1: in the South Australian Museum and I was reading through 762 00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:02,799 Speaker 1: their archives about their acquisitions or aboriginal material, I got 763 00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:05,640 Speaker 1: physically ill and had to leave and never went back again. 764 00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,239 Speaker 1: You can go so far with this stuff and then 765 00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:11,359 Speaker 1: you think, no, no, it's too much. It's too much. 766 00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:15,080 Speaker 2: Oh, I can understand that. I'm so sorry to hear that. Well, 767 00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:17,960 Speaker 2: that's been a very dark story, as you describe it, 768 00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,600 Speaker 2: but it's been fascinating. Thank you so much for sharing 769 00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:22,560 Speaker 2: it with us Today. The book is out now, A 770 00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:27,160 Speaker 2: very Secret Trade, The Dark story of gentlemen collectors in Tasmania. 771 00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:29,239 Speaker 2: Where's the best place for people to pick up a copy. 772 00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:32,320 Speaker 1: Cassandra, Well, I would think the big bookshops like readings, 773 00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:37,520 Speaker 1: and you know, my understanding from my publishers are that 774 00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:41,120 Speaker 1: it's gone out very widely to bookshops because the first book, 775 00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:43,960 Speaker 1: the book that's proceeded at trugg it Any, was a 776 00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,040 Speaker 1: best seller and so most bookshops will be getting copies 777 00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:48,759 Speaker 1: of it. I think you'll be able to get it 778 00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:49,880 Speaker 1: fairly easily. 779 00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:57,680 Speaker 2: And hopefully you sell another thirty thousand copies. It's now 780 00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:01,560 Speaker 2: I'm amazing, all right, Thanks very much and best of luck. 781 00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:03,719 Speaker 1: Thank you very much, always good talking to you. 782 00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:10,920 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. This has been In Black and White, 783 00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:15,080 Speaker 2: a podcast about some of Australia's forgotten characters, written and 784 00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:18,799 Speaker 2: hosted by me Jen Kelly, edited by Nina Young and 785 00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:21,719 Speaker 2: produced by John ti Burton. You can find all the 786 00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:25,719 Speaker 2: stories and photos associated with our episodes at Heroldsun dot 787 00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:31,080 Speaker 2: com dot au, slash ibaw. If you've enjoyed this podcast, 788 00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:33,200 Speaker 2: we'd love you to leave a five star rating on 789 00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:37,680 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, even better, leave a review. Any comments or 790 00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:40,719 Speaker 2: questions please email me at In Black and White at 791 00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:45,160 Speaker 2: Haroldsun dot com dot au. Any clarifications or updates will 792 00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:48,120 Speaker 2: appear in the show notes for each episode, and to 793 00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:50,919 Speaker 2: get notified when each new episode comes out, make sure 794 00:51:50,960 --> 00:52:00,879 Speaker 2: you subscribe to the podcast feed SI