WEBVTT - The man behind the bench: David Heilpern Pt.1 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039 Detective sy aside of life, the average person is never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.080 exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:36.640 no one who comes in the contact with crime is 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:39.840 left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:49.000 this world. Magistrates, by the nature of their work, are 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:51.960 often criticized by the public for going soft on crime. 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:54.319 And then you have, on the other hand, people they 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:57.840 convict and sentence think they've been hard done by. It's 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:00.760 a tough job burn a local court magistrate, but they 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:05.160 play a crucial role in society today. We're fortunate to 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:09.120 have retired magistrate David Helpern come on the podcast and 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:12.839 have a fascinating discussion about the life of magistrate, including 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:14.840 everything from the time he held a sick bag for 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:18.600 a prisoner, face death threats, and he's dealings with sovereign 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:22.640 citizens and why he became known as the fuck Magistrate. 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:26.039 That's going to be interesting. If you have a preconceived 0:01:26.080 --> 0:01:29.080 idea about the person who sits in judgment of others, 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:31.520 have a listen to what David has to say about 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:34.680 the role. I think you'll be surprised and perhaps shocked 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:38.000 about the person he is and his views on crime 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:41.480 and punishment. It was a refreshing chat and one that 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:43.800 opened my eyes up to the complexity of the role. 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:47.920 David Hilpern, welcome to I Catch Killers. 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:49.560 Thanks so much. 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:53.440 Well, look, old habits die hard. So if I start 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:57.200 referring to you as your honor, you know that I've 0:01:57.320 --> 0:01:59.880 got flashbacks to times in the witness box where I've 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:03.720 been dissected by very clever legal people. So if I 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:05.080 fall into that trap, forgive me. 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:08.040 Well. When you and I started in court, I think 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:09.120 it was your worship. 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:13.440 Yeah that changed two thousand and four, I think around 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:14.160 that time, was it. 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:18.240 Yeah, that's right. It stopped worshiping me and started honoring me. 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:21.240 So then either way, I was trying to give you respect, 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:26.320 your honor, your worship. Sir, you were twenty one years 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:30.679 as a magistrate. Did you come accustomed to people addressing 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:33.959 you in that manner, your honor, your worship, that type 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:34.280 of thing. 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:40.760 Never. It always felt completely bizarre. Really, I kept looking 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:44.520 around wondering who they were talking to. It's such an 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:49.600 artificial environment, really, the court, where you refer to people 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:53.079 not by their name but solely by their title and 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:55.840 of course your worship and your honor. They're meant to 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:59.440 instantly give authority. But I sort of always felt that 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:01.960 authority should be earned and respect should be earned, rather 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:03.360 than just given by a title. 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:07.640 Yeah, that's an interesting way of looking at in my 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:12.000 research that I didn't in preparation for it. I saw 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:14.880 it was either in an article or an interview you did. 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:18.119 You had some funny situations with the way that you've 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:22.080 been addressed, and with someone in court trying obviously trying 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:25.639 to do their best, but referred to you as your majesty. 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:30.520 Your majesty, your most worshipfulness. Yeah, you really got the 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:35.480 full gamut. Your majesty was delivered by a by a 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:39.400 fellow who'd only just immigrated from India and he was 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:43.920 bending over backwards to show respect, so I just let 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:44.240 it go. 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:47.560 It would have been a little bit embarrassing if you 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:49.080 pull him upon that. 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:52.720 Absolutely. I also got called your holiness once as well, 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:55.320 when I thought being elevated to the pope was really 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:56.000 something else. 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:59.360 Well, I'm glad you didn't buy into your own own 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:02.680 fame and the adulation that you had from people in 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:05.600 your courts. But it's interesting the way you see people 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:08.640 come in the courts, because it is a strange environment 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:10.520 for people, isn't it. 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:13.960 It really is. And you know I always I mean 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:16.120 you and I discussed this in preparation that by the 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:19.760 time you've been a police officer for five or ten years, 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:22.239 going to court just becomes natural and you're pretty relaxed 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:25.200 about it. Yeah, Whereas for people who've never been there before, 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:32.480 particularly young people, Aboriginal people, people from different backgrounds, it's 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:35.120 quite a scary environment for them. And I think one 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:39.600 of the real functions of good lawyers, good prosecutors, and 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:43.920 good judicial officers is to make people feel relaxed and 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:45.200 not too uptight. 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:49.240 Yeah. Well, I think creating that relaxed atmosphere lends to 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:51.800 a better outcome as well, because I've seen people that 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:55.520 have literally choked in the witness box. I know the 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:58.160 story or the information they wanted to provide, and that 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:01.159 doesn't come out properly, and quite often it's because they're 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:03.719 intimidated in a foreign type environment. 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:09.160 Absolutely. I used to in training other magistrates. I used 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:12.120 to say, you know, courts should be like hospitals. Horrible 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:16.120 things do happen there, but everyone's doing their best in 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:17.880 this case to get to the truth and to get 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:18.920 to a just outcome. 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:23.200 Yeah. No, it's important to create that. You talk about training. 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:27.080 On occasions where I've been fortunate enough to speak to 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:30.320 law students that are going to embark on a career 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:33.880 in law, what I try to leave my talk with, 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:36.839 or what I try to finish off with in giving 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:40.640 words of wisdom in that environment is that don't lose 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:44.240 touch with your humanity when you're practicing law. Like I'm 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:46.880 speaking to people, I'm talking to them from a police 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:49.160 point of view and things that I've seen and done. 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:53.159 But the importance of maintaining your humanity. Would you agree 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:54.520 in that concept? 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:57.839 Yeah, for sure. And you know, I mean, I think 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:00.960 it's part of really maintaining your sanity in these jobs, 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:04.320 because if you lose your humanity, then where's your touchstone 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:07.240 when things start going wrong? You know? I mean, I 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:09.680 think most people join the police, most people join the 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:12.280 legal profession because they care and they want to help 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:15.839 other people. But if you lose your humanity, I think 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:20.520 you can be making mistakes and errors of judgment that 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:24.400 really impact on other people. I always tried to remind 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:27.200 myself that I was just a human being trying to 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:31.719 do my best in a difficult and very hot house environment. 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:34.560 And if you start from that perspective, with a bit 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:39.279 of humility as well as humanity, then I think justice 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:42.160 is better served. And I mean, I'm sure we've all 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:45.520 seen that in really good police officers too. They maintain 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:50.000 their humanity, they realize that they're human and we're all 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:52.599 just doing our best in a pretty difficult system. 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:57.240 Yeah, I look, and I agree wholeheartedly what you've said there, 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:00.000 But I've also seen people that lose their way because 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:03.720 it's an adversarial system, and I see defense and prosecutors 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:05.440 going at it like it's a game of sport, and 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:09.480 I'm sitting in the court with the victim whose life's 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:12.320 been turned upside down or even the person appearing before 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:16.040 the court. And I think sometimes that can be disarming 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:18.160 to people involved in it, that they look and go, 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:21.239 what's going on here? We're talking about my life because 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:23.480 it is high stakes in the court. 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:27.480 System, absolutely, and there's a difference between an adversarial system 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:31.680 which we have and a competitive system which we shouldn't have. 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:36.720 It's not actually about winning or losing. It's certainly about 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:40.160 ensuring that your case is presented the best it can 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:42.600 be from a prosecution or a defense point of view 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:46.520 and from the judicial office point of view, that everything 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:49.560 is explained and that people understand what's going on. I 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:52.840 mean the number of times I'd sentence people and go 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:57.160 into language that's a bit two technical or jargon and 0:07:57.560 --> 0:08:01.480 they wouldn't have a clue what had actually happened. That's 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:05.400 got to be avoided. And also that over competitiveness. I 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:09.280 mean I had lawyers and prosecutors almost come to blows 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:13.000 yeah at the bar table, and you know, you feel 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:16.840 like saying, children, you know, we're not actually getting to 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:21.320 any point of having an evidence rightly if you're presented 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:23.720 so that I can make a decision when you're going 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:24.520 at it like that. 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:27.080 The lost sight of what it's about. I'll do a 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:30.840 segue because you mentioned language, and I think i'll bring 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:33.400 this up. I was aware of the work that you 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:36.600 were doing at various times in your career when you're 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:39.600 a magistrate, and I was a police officer in homicide, 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:41.360 so doing a lot of work around the state in 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:45.800 different areas. But you did have a name. I'll let 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:49.880 you explain it the fuck magistrate, do you want to explain? 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:53.640 Explain that it's true and it's a bad chize still 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:56.360 to this day, where with some pride, look, I think 0:08:56.440 --> 0:08:59.560 we'd all been aware of the trifector, but I honestly 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:01.680 hadn't seen it that much in my career as a 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:05.440 defense lawyer and occasionally doing prosecution matters. But when I 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:07.640 went out to western New South Wales as a very 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:14.520 young magistrate, I was sitting in towns like Burke In Brewarrina, Cobabo. 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:18.040 Every second or third case was what they call a 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:21.720 trifacta case where someone's arrested for offensive language and then 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:23.880 they put up a bit of a stink and they're 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:27.640 charged with hindu police or resist arrest and assault police, 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:33.240 all because of language. And almost without exception, it was 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:37.840 the word fuck, And I'd been brought up on Triple 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:42.120 J and I'd watched movies and television and the word 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:44.560 that Alvin Purple, and you know, it had started to 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:49.040 be used really regularly. Yeah, people were getting arrested for it. 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:50.839 And it's not as though they were being arrested for 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:53.560 saying it in church. They were being arrested for saying 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:57.120 it in the street. And I had a case where, 0:09:57.280 --> 0:10:00.520 or two cases really, one where a a bike that 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:03.400 was suspected of being stolen was being taken by a 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:08.040 police officer and the young Aboriginal man who took who 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:10.719 it was being taken from, saying you're not fucking having it, 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:13.520 and they said you're under arrest, and that was it. 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:17.240 It was on and the trifector in the second case 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:21.400 where a woman down at the South Coast was swearing 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:25.640 in a domestic violence situation where she was the victim 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:28.920 and the police had attended the premises and she had 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:33.119 lost lost control really and certainly was swearing at everybody. 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:35.400 But in both those cases, it seemed to me to 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:38.400 be ridiculous to arrest people that is deprived of their 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:41.199 liberty for an offense that carries a maximum penalty of 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:46.560 a fine. And so I just heard argument from a 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:48.800 barrister by the name of Mark Dennis, who is now 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:54.280 an sc and he said, well, I'll put it to you. 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:57.880 The words not offensive anymore. It's lost its punch, and 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:01.800 really this is just an unfortunate use of police powers 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:06.760 to deal with another problem, which is disrespect, or another 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:09.640 problem which is not being able to control yourself in 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:13.920 times of stress. And I accepted that argument, and I 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:17.839 found that the word was no longer offensive and dismissed 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:23.120 charges against people and there was no appeal, but there 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:27.120 was complaint. Some police didn't like it, and sixty Minutes 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:29.839 did a big number on it, and the police commissioner 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:32.640 came on sixty Minutes and said, well, you know, I 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:36.160 think he's probably right. I've used that word myself. Yeah, 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:37.360 that was the end of it. 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:42.160 Really, like the law is set in precedents, and yeah, 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:44.800 it goes back a long way, but it's got to 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:47.959 be able to serve the community that it's operating for. 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:51.480 And I think, congratulations on you taking that stance on that, 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:54.240 because I thought it was a shortcut for policing. It 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:58.120 sort of it fitted in early days in my policing. 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:01.720 I think we could rest people for being intoxicated or vagrant, 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:04.560 and that was just the excuse. Okay, I've got no 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:07.080 real charge. I take this person off the street. And 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:10.160 that's what you were talking about. And there was times 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:12.320 when it was abused, and you say the big three 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:15.640 like offensive behavior, right, you've said the word fuck. Now 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:18.480 we're going to arrest you. When you resist, that's going 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:20.480 to be resist police. And when you push this, that's 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:23.800 assault police. And these people are fitting there. And I 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:27.160 didn't like the culture of police and probably police that 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:30.120 I didn't respect talking about Oh we'll give them the trifecta. Yeah, 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:33.440 it was a horrible way, So congratulations on that. But 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:36.719 I'm sure you the shock jock type situation. People were 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:39.440 to push back and go, who is this soft magistrate? 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:42.040 He's going soft on crime. The sky is going to 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:44.880 fall if we allow people to do to swear. 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:47.960 So, yeah, it's a funny thing because you know, you 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:50.480 bring your own, your own culture, you bring your own 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:53.720 humanity to the bench, which is something I think people 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:57.360 don't realize. So that I think I was much tougher 0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:01.120 on domestic violence, much tougher on drink driving than many magistrates, 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:05.200 but certainly much lighter when I thought that things have 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:08.240 changed and the law doesn't just stay stable, it doesn't 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:10.840 stay in one spot. And while words like that were 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:16.280 certainly offensive twenty thirty forty years before I made that decision, 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:20.480 things actually move on. And I think these days, you know, 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:23.040 I'd hesitate to say it now, but the N word, 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:26.439 when you refer to people who are colored, Yeah, I 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:29.720 think that word is far more offensive than the word 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:31.080 fuck is today. 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:34.560 Well, you'd get the more reaction from someone if you 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:36.960 said that. If you're throwing out the F word, No 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:38.680 one's going to batten nyhii it if you said the 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:41.920 other word, people would. I agree. And when you're looking 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:45.720 at it, the definition of the actual crime is that 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:50.480 you've offended people. I took offense to the fact. And 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:52.720 I say this jokingly. I thought it was quite funny 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:54.920 that there was an article written about it in your 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:58.760 Stance and they reference was it chuk Fouler, the infamous 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:01.760 corrupt detective in the Royal Commission? 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:04.200 Every second word that came out. 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:07.920 Yeah, where we all sat at home watching his tapes 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:09.960 in his car or whatever, and he was using the 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:12.439 word as a punctuation mark and yeah. 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:15.000 Totally, totally, Well, I thought it was funny that someone 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:17.719 said to me that his shorts were more offensive than 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:18.480 his language. 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:22.920 Bringing back there those images. We should move on from that. Yeah, 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:25.080 I do recall where they had the camera. It wasn't 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:28.720 a good good position. Tell us a little bit about 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:31.640 your your background, where did you grow up and how 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:32.960 did you find your way into law. 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:40.360 Look, my dad was a lawyer, and my uncle, Howe 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:43.760 was a lawyer and then a Supreme Court judge hol Spurling, 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:47.840 and there was a lot of law talk around our 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:51.360 kitchen table. My dad was very involved in civil liberties 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:54.040 and in prisoner Action group, and he was chief of 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:56.760 staff to Frank Walker, the then Attorney General when I 0:14:56.840 --> 0:14:59.760 was a child, so I got brought up in a 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:03.640 hot house environment of law. I of course rejected that 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:06.800 completely and wanted to be a vet because we grew 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:09.320 up on a farm in Bathist and I thought that's it. 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:11.440 But I missed out on the marks to be a 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:15.000 vet just by a couple of marks. And in those days, 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:18.000 whatever mark you got, that was it, and vet science 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:21.000 was much higher. So law was my second choice, but 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:24.120 I never regretted it. Really. As soon as I started 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:28.280 at law school, I had some absolutely inspirational fellow students 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:32.400 and inspirational teachers, and I loved it. I love it 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:36.840 to this day. I find it's interesting and exciting and 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:43.040 intellectually challenging and morally challenging the kinds of dilemmas that 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:47.560 the law brings up. So my background was being brought 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:50.240 up in that environment. But I went to Bathist High School, 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:54.920 so I wasn't from a private school. And I did 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:57.320 my law degree. I moved to Sydney to do law 0:15:57.360 --> 0:15:59.520 and I hated living in the city, so I moved 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:03.680 back to Batson, did it externally and when I finished, 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:06.480 by then I had a couple of kids, so it 0:16:06.560 --> 0:16:09.400 wasn't a question of to finish off. As most people 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:11.720 would be aware, You've got to do another course, which 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:14.520 is called the College of Law or the legal workshop, 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:17.600 and to do that I got off at a scholarship 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:20.120 to do that in Canberra with A and U and 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:24.160 the Australian Attorney General's Department. So I joined them, and 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:27.960 then didn't like living in Canberra either, realized I was 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:30.600 definitely a country boy, and got a job with a 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:34.840 law firm Inkyogle, which and opened a branch office in 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:38.240 Nimben because I loved Nimben. I thought it was the 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:39.240 center of the universe. 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:42.480 Okay, I've spent a bit of time at Nimban myself. 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:45.960 Were you the radical, going to change the world type 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:50.280 UNI student and taking on the world? Was that your thing? 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:55.200 Yes, I think you could say that. I was involved 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:58.880 in protests. I don't know if you remember a case, 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:01.920 but there was a case called Island Roberts where she'd 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:05.760 killed her husband, Bruce, and she'd got life imprisonment, and 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:09.960 I think my first set of demonstrations were to do 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:13.760 with releasing her from custody when really she was just 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:16.280 trying to defend herself against domestic vinds. It led to 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:20.480 the change in law for provocation as a defense, and 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:23.680 you know, at that time the Tazzy Dams marches were happening, 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:26.240 and so yeah, I thought it was a great chance 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:32.119 to enjoy myself, meet interesting people, particularly the opposite sex, 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:34.840 and get involved in politics. 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:38.159 Okay, so I'm getting a picture of the type of 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:43.679 person you were, and recreational drugs in that environment. I 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:46.160 think statute of limitations a pass that and I haven't 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:49.440 cautioned you, so I think we can speak openly about that. 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:53.800 Indeed, and I've been open about that that. I mean, 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:56.600 I should say that in those days, it was very 0:17:56.680 --> 0:18:01.359 unusual for people to use any drugs other things, just cannabis. Yeah, 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:09.840 and I certainly inhaled and exhaled, fortunately. 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:11.280 Not to President Clinton. 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:16.320 And I really enjoyed it. I thought cannabis was a 0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:21.600 terrific drug for me. I didn't like drinking. I didn't 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:24.040 like being around people who were drinking that much either. 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:29.119 It was pretty agro, whereas smoking was very mellow, and 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:32.880 it helped me weirdly focus on my studies enormously. I mean, 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:36.240 I did well with my studies. And I know that 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:39.560 it's unpopular to say, but for some people it really 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:40.480 helped slow me down. 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:44.960 I think it's interesting with the drug situation, like when 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:49.200 we're talking cannabis and that I know people that, yeah, 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:53.400 that drug suits them at whatever it does. It balances 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:55.800 out other people that if they touch alcohol, they're going 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:58.440 to turn into a night there, you know, or other 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:02.000 people can deal with alcohol. It's an individual thing. The 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:07.840 effect that has on you living that type of lifestyle. 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:09.840 Do you think that served you well when you did 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:11.880 eventually start practicing. 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:15.200 Law, Yes, I think it did. I mean I joined 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:17.560 a small firm that was, and I was doing criminal 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:21.359 defense work, doing legal aid, doing aboriginal legal service work, 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:24.959 and of course moving to the Far North Coast and 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:28.159 having a branch office in Nimben. A significant proportion of 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:30.879 my work was drug work, and no one was really 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:34.840 specializing in that much. But I enjoyed that kind of work. 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:38.040 I enjoyed the clients. I enjoyed the repartee with some 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:41.760 of the elements of the drug squad. You know, we 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:44.639 loved to hate each other and teased each other on 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:47.880 the winds and losses that we had. Probably far too competitive, 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:53.320 but I enjoyed the work environment, and I enjoyed that 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:56.359 doing drug work, and as you can imagine, there was 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:58.840 plenty of it. There was a lot of people being 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:02.280 arrested for cannabis plants. It was at the days of 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:07.119 the helicopter raids where crops were routinely being seized and 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:10.439 burnt and people arrested. There was a lot of people 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:14.320 charged just with simple possessions. And yeah, it's sort of 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:17.640 motivated me to speak up and speak out about why 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:20.040 the law needed to be changed. And I guess I 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:23.399 felt completely hypocritical as well, because I was a person 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:28.360 who not daily, yeah, in fact, not even weekly, but 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:31.000 if I went out, I really liked and enjoyed to 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:31.560 have a smoke. 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:35.879 Yeah, yeah, I can understand the conflict there, but that 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:39.840 was the environment. Like Nimben. I spent some time up there, 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:42.800 not working, but also time up there when I was working, 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:45.240 And it was quite funny driving up there, even an 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:48.760 unmarked police car. You'd pull up to a commune and 0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:51.760 the whole commune and disappear into the bushes, calling out 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:56.560 government car, government car, just disappearing. And I just a 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:59.400 side note, I had a conversation with a family up there, 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:02.560 and they were most distraught that they raise their children 0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:05.479 in very much the nimb and lifestyle, and their children 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:08.240 had rebelled, and they were disappointed that they're trying to 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:11.760 get careers and they're getting jobs and different things like that. 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:16.000 And it's an absolute tragedy when that happens. 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:19.080 Yeah, they raise them with all the right veys. 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:21.840 When you call someone poss rainbow and they still become 0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:24.120 an accountant, you've definitely failed. 0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:29.520 Defense. Did you ever consider prosecution? Did you ever go 0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:30.280 down that path? 0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:34.200 I did do some prosecuting. I did one of our clients, 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:37.399 or several of our clients were local councils and I 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:40.080 did some prosecution work there, and there is no doubt 0:21:40.119 --> 0:21:42.280 that the best training to be a defense lawyer is 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:47.000 to do some prosecution and vice versa. A maide of 0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:50.360 mine who's now the Minister for Local Government, Ron Honig, 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:53.800 was a public defender for many years and then he 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:56.120 did a stint in the Crown prosecutions and he said 0:21:56.160 --> 0:21:58.960 to me, I learned more in that six months about 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:00.960 being a good defense lawyer, in fact, just being a 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:04.040 good lawyer. Yeah. By swapping the side of the fence, 0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:07.840 and I think doing the prosecution work for local councils 0:22:08.200 --> 0:22:12.640 for people who had built dangerous structures or had committed 0:22:12.840 --> 0:22:17.919 other environmental type offenses. That was really powerful training ground 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:20.960