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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life, the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes in the contact with crime is

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Speaker 1: left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into

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Speaker 1: this world. Magistrates, by the nature of their work, are

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Speaker 1: often criticized by the public for going soft on crime.

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Speaker 1: And then you have, on the other hand, people they

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Speaker 1: convict and sentence think they've been hard done by. It's

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Speaker 1: a tough job burn a local court magistrate, but they

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Speaker 1: play a crucial role in society today. We're fortunate to

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Speaker 1: have retired magistrate David Helpern come on the podcast and

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Speaker 1: have a fascinating discussion about the life of magistrate, including

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Speaker 1: everything from the time he held a sick bag for

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Speaker 1: a prisoner, face death threats, and he's dealings with sovereign

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Speaker 1: citizens and why he became known as the fuck Magistrate.

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Speaker 1: That's going to be interesting. If you have a preconceived

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Speaker 1: idea about the person who sits in judgment of others,

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Speaker 1: have a listen to what David has to say about

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Speaker 1: the role. I think you'll be surprised and perhaps shocked

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Speaker 1: about the person he is and his views on crime

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Speaker 1: and punishment. It was a refreshing chat and one that

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Speaker 1: opened my eyes up to the complexity of the role.

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Speaker 1: David Hilpern, welcome to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much.

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Speaker 1: Well, look, old habits die hard. So if I start

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Speaker 1: referring to you as your honor, you know that I've

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Speaker 1: got flashbacks to times in the witness box where I've

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Speaker 1: been dissected by very clever legal people. So if I

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Speaker 1: fall into that trap, forgive me.

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Speaker 2: Well. When you and I started in court, I think

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Speaker 2: it was your worship.

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Speaker 1: Yeah that changed two thousand and four, I think around

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Speaker 1: that time, was it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. It stopped worshiping me and started honoring me.

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Speaker 1: So then either way, I was trying to give you respect,

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Speaker 1: your honor, your worship. Sir, you were twenty one years

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Speaker 1: as a magistrate. Did you come accustomed to people addressing

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Speaker 1: you in that manner, your honor, your worship, that type

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Speaker 1: of thing.

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Speaker 2: Never. It always felt completely bizarre. Really, I kept looking

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Speaker 2: around wondering who they were talking to. It's such an

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Speaker 2: artificial environment, really, the court, where you refer to people

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Speaker 2: not by their name but solely by their title and

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Speaker 2: of course your worship and your honor. They're meant to

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Speaker 2: instantly give authority. But I sort of always felt that

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Speaker 2: authority should be earned and respect should be earned, rather

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Speaker 2: than just given by a title.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's an interesting way of looking at in my

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Speaker 1: research that I didn't in preparation for it. I saw

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Speaker 1: it was either in an article or an interview you did.

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Speaker 1: You had some funny situations with the way that you've

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Speaker 1: been addressed, and with someone in court trying obviously trying

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Speaker 1: to do their best, but referred to you as your majesty.

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Speaker 2: Your majesty, your most worshipfulness. Yeah, you really got the

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Speaker 2: full gamut. Your majesty was delivered by a by a

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Speaker 2: fellow who'd only just immigrated from India and he was

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Speaker 2: bending over backwards to show respect, so I just let

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Speaker 2: it go.

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Speaker 1: It would have been a little bit embarrassing if you

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Speaker 1: pull him upon that.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. I also got called your holiness once as well,

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Speaker 2: when I thought being elevated to the pope was really

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Speaker 2: something else.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you didn't buy into your own own

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Speaker 1: fame and the adulation that you had from people in

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Speaker 1: your courts. But it's interesting the way you see people

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Speaker 1: come in the courts, because it is a strange environment

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Speaker 1: for people, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: It really is. And you know I always I mean

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Speaker 2: you and I discussed this in preparation that by the

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Speaker 2: time you've been a police officer for five or ten years,

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Speaker 2: going to court just becomes natural and you're pretty relaxed

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Speaker 2: about it. Yeah, Whereas for people who've never been there before,

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Speaker 2: particularly young people, Aboriginal people, people from different backgrounds, it's

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Speaker 2: quite a scary environment for them. And I think one

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Speaker 2: of the real functions of good lawyers, good prosecutors, and

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Speaker 2: good judicial officers is to make people feel relaxed and

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Speaker 2: not too uptight.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I think creating that relaxed atmosphere lends to

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Speaker 1: a better outcome as well, because I've seen people that

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Speaker 1: have literally choked in the witness box. I know the

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Speaker 1: story or the information they wanted to provide, and that

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Speaker 1: doesn't come out properly, and quite often it's because they're

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Speaker 1: intimidated in a foreign type environment.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. I used to in training other magistrates. I used

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Speaker 2: to say, you know, courts should be like hospitals. Horrible

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Speaker 2: things do happen there, but everyone's doing their best in

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Speaker 2: this case to get to the truth and to get

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Speaker 2: to a just outcome.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. No, it's important to create that. You talk about training.

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Speaker 1: On occasions where I've been fortunate enough to speak to

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Speaker 1: law students that are going to embark on a career

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Speaker 1: in law, what I try to leave my talk with,

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Speaker 1: or what I try to finish off with in giving

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Speaker 1: words of wisdom in that environment is that don't lose

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Speaker 1: touch with your humanity when you're practicing law. Like I'm

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Speaker 1: speaking to people, I'm talking to them from a police

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Speaker 1: point of view and things that I've seen and done.

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Speaker 1: But the importance of maintaining your humanity. Would you agree

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Speaker 1: in that concept?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. And you know, I mean, I think

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Speaker 2: it's part of really maintaining your sanity in these jobs,

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Speaker 2: because if you lose your humanity, then where's your touchstone

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Speaker 2: when things start going wrong? You know? I mean, I

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Speaker 2: think most people join the police, most people join the

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Speaker 2: legal profession because they care and they want to help

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Speaker 2: other people. But if you lose your humanity, I think

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Speaker 2: you can be making mistakes and errors of judgment that

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Speaker 2: really impact on other people. I always tried to remind

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Speaker 2: myself that I was just a human being trying to

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Speaker 2: do my best in a difficult and very hot house environment.

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Speaker 2: And if you start from that perspective, with a bit

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Speaker 2: of humility as well as humanity, then I think justice

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Speaker 2: is better served. And I mean, I'm sure we've all

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Speaker 2: seen that in really good police officers too. They maintain

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Speaker 2: their humanity, they realize that they're human and we're all

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Speaker 2: just doing our best in a pretty difficult system.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I look, and I agree wholeheartedly what you've said there,

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Speaker 1: But I've also seen people that lose their way because

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Speaker 1: it's an adversarial system, and I see defense and prosecutors

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Speaker 1: going at it like it's a game of sport, and

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Speaker 1: I'm sitting in the court with the victim whose life's

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Speaker 1: been turned upside down or even the person appearing before

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Speaker 1: the court. And I think sometimes that can be disarming

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Speaker 1: to people involved in it, that they look and go,

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Speaker 1: what's going on here? We're talking about my life because

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Speaker 1: it is high stakes in the court.

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Speaker 2: System, absolutely, and there's a difference between an adversarial system

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Speaker 2: which we have and a competitive system which we shouldn't have.

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Speaker 2: It's not actually about winning or losing. It's certainly about

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Speaker 2: ensuring that your case is presented the best it can

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Speaker 2: be from a prosecution or a defense point of view

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Speaker 2: and from the judicial office point of view, that everything

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Speaker 2: is explained and that people understand what's going on. I

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Speaker 2: mean the number of times I'd sentence people and go

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Speaker 2: into language that's a bit two technical or jargon and

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Speaker 2: they wouldn't have a clue what had actually happened. That's

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Speaker 2: got to be avoided. And also that over competitiveness. I

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Speaker 2: mean I had lawyers and prosecutors almost come to blows

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Speaker 2: yeah at the bar table, and you know, you feel

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Speaker 2: like saying, children, you know, we're not actually getting to

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Speaker 2: any point of having an evidence rightly if you're presented

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Speaker 2: so that I can make a decision when you're going

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Speaker 2: at it like that.

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Speaker 1: The lost sight of what it's about. I'll do a

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Speaker 1: segue because you mentioned language, and I think i'll bring

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Speaker 1: this up. I was aware of the work that you

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Speaker 1: were doing at various times in your career when you're

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Speaker 1: a magistrate, and I was a police officer in homicide,

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Speaker 1: so doing a lot of work around the state in

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Speaker 1: different areas. But you did have a name. I'll let

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Speaker 1: you explain it the fuck magistrate, do you want to explain?

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Speaker 2: Explain that it's true and it's a bad chize still

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Speaker 2: to this day, where with some pride, look, I think

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Speaker 2: we'd all been aware of the trifector, but I honestly

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Speaker 2: hadn't seen it that much in my career as a

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Speaker 2: defense lawyer and occasionally doing prosecution matters. But when I

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Speaker 2: went out to western New South Wales as a very

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Speaker 2: young magistrate, I was sitting in towns like Burke In Brewarrina, Cobabo.

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Speaker 2: Every second or third case was what they call a

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Speaker 2: trifacta case where someone's arrested for offensive language and then

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Speaker 2: they put up a bit of a stink and they're

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Speaker 2: charged with hindu police or resist arrest and assault police,

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Speaker 2: all because of language. And almost without exception, it was

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Speaker 2: the word fuck, And I'd been brought up on Triple

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Speaker 2: J and I'd watched movies and television and the word

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Speaker 2: that Alvin Purple, and you know, it had started to

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Speaker 2: be used really regularly. Yeah, people were getting arrested for it.

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Speaker 2: And it's not as though they were being arrested for

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Speaker 2: saying it in church. They were being arrested for saying

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Speaker 2: it in the street. And I had a case where,

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Speaker 2: or two cases really, one where a a bike that

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Speaker 2: was suspected of being stolen was being taken by a

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Speaker 2: police officer and the young Aboriginal man who took who

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Speaker 2: it was being taken from, saying you're not fucking having it,

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Speaker 2: and they said you're under arrest, and that was it.

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Speaker 2: It was on and the trifector in the second case

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Speaker 2: where a woman down at the South Coast was swearing

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Speaker 2: in a domestic violence situation where she was the victim

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Speaker 2: and the police had attended the premises and she had

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Speaker 2: lost lost control really and certainly was swearing at everybody.

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Speaker 2: But in both those cases, it seemed to me to

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Speaker 2: be ridiculous to arrest people that is deprived of their

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Speaker 2: liberty for an offense that carries a maximum penalty of

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Speaker 2: a fine. And so I just heard argument from a

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Speaker 2: barrister by the name of Mark Dennis, who is now

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Speaker 2: an sc and he said, well, I'll put it to you.

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Speaker 2: The words not offensive anymore. It's lost its punch, and

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Speaker 2: really this is just an unfortunate use of police powers

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Speaker 2: to deal with another problem, which is disrespect, or another

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Speaker 2: problem which is not being able to control yourself in

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Speaker 2: times of stress. And I accepted that argument, and I

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Speaker 2: found that the word was no longer offensive and dismissed

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Speaker 2: charges against people and there was no appeal, but there

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Speaker 2: was complaint. Some police didn't like it, and sixty Minutes

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Speaker 2: did a big number on it, and the police commissioner

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Speaker 2: came on sixty Minutes and said, well, you know, I

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Speaker 2: think he's probably right. I've used that word myself. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that was the end of it.

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Speaker 1: Really, like the law is set in precedents, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: it goes back a long way, but it's got to

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Speaker 1: be able to serve the community that it's operating for.

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Speaker 1: And I think, congratulations on you taking that stance on that,

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Speaker 1: because I thought it was a shortcut for policing. It

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Speaker 1: sort of it fitted in early days in my policing.

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Speaker 1: I think we could rest people for being intoxicated or vagrant,

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Speaker 1: and that was just the excuse. Okay, I've got no

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Speaker 1: real charge. I take this person off the street. And

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Speaker 1: that's what you were talking about. And there was times

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Speaker 1: when it was abused, and you say the big three

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Speaker 1: like offensive behavior, right, you've said the word fuck. Now

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Speaker 1: we're going to arrest you. When you resist, that's going

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Speaker 1: to be resist police. And when you push this, that's

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Speaker 1: assault police. And these people are fitting there. And I

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Speaker 1: didn't like the culture of police and probably police that

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Speaker 1: I didn't respect talking about Oh we'll give them the trifecta. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was a horrible way, So congratulations on that. But

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you the shock jock type situation. People were

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Speaker 1: to push back and go, who is this soft magistrate?

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Speaker 1: He's going soft on crime. The sky is going to

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Speaker 1: fall if we allow people to do to swear.

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, it's a funny thing because you know, you

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Speaker 2: bring your own, your own culture, you bring your own

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Speaker 2: humanity to the bench, which is something I think people

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Speaker 2: don't realize. So that I think I was much tougher

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Speaker 2: on domestic violence, much tougher on drink driving than many magistrates,

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Speaker 2: but certainly much lighter when I thought that things have

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Speaker 2: changed and the law doesn't just stay stable, it doesn't

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Speaker 2: stay in one spot. And while words like that were

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Speaker 2: certainly offensive twenty thirty forty years before I made that decision,

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Speaker 2: things actually move on. And I think these days, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'd hesitate to say it now, but the N word,

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Speaker 2: when you refer to people who are colored, Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: think that word is far more offensive than the word

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Speaker 2: fuck is today.

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Speaker 1: Well, you'd get the more reaction from someone if you

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Speaker 1: said that. If you're throwing out the F word, No

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Speaker 1: one's going to batten nyhii it if you said the

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Speaker 1: other word, people would. I agree. And when you're looking

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Speaker 1: at it, the definition of the actual crime is that

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Speaker 1: you've offended people. I took offense to the fact. And

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Speaker 1: I say this jokingly. I thought it was quite funny

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Speaker 1: that there was an article written about it in your

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Speaker 1: Stance and they reference was it chuk Fouler, the infamous

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Speaker 1: corrupt detective in the Royal Commission?

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Speaker 2: Every second word that came out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, where we all sat at home watching his tapes

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Speaker 1: in his car or whatever, and he was using the

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Speaker 1: word as a punctuation mark and yeah.

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Speaker 2: Totally, totally, Well, I thought it was funny that someone

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Speaker 2: said to me that his shorts were more offensive than

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Speaker 2: his language.

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Speaker 1: Bringing back there those images. We should move on from that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I do recall where they had the camera. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: a good good position. Tell us a little bit about

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Speaker 1: your your background, where did you grow up and how

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Speaker 1: did you find your way into law.

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Speaker 2: Look, my dad was a lawyer, and my uncle, Howe

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Speaker 2: was a lawyer and then a Supreme Court judge hol Spurling,

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Speaker 2: and there was a lot of law talk around our

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Speaker 2: kitchen table. My dad was very involved in civil liberties

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Speaker 2: and in prisoner Action group, and he was chief of

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Speaker 2: staff to Frank Walker, the then Attorney General when I

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Speaker 2: was a child, so I got brought up in a

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Speaker 2: hot house environment of law. I of course rejected that

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Speaker 2: completely and wanted to be a vet because we grew

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Speaker 2: up on a farm in Bathist and I thought that's it.

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Speaker 2: But I missed out on the marks to be a

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Speaker 2: vet just by a couple of marks. And in those days,

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Speaker 2: whatever mark you got, that was it, and vet science

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Speaker 2: was much higher. So law was my second choice, but

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Speaker 2: I never regretted it. Really. As soon as I started

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Speaker 2: at law school, I had some absolutely inspirational fellow students

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Speaker 2: and inspirational teachers, and I loved it. I love it

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Speaker 2: to this day. I find it's interesting and exciting and

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Speaker 2: intellectually challenging and morally challenging the kinds of dilemmas that

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Speaker 2: the law brings up. So my background was being brought

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Speaker 2: up in that environment. But I went to Bathist High School,

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Speaker 2: so I wasn't from a private school. And I did

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Speaker 2: my law degree. I moved to Sydney to do law

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Speaker 2: and I hated living in the city, so I moved

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Speaker 2: back to Batson, did it externally and when I finished,

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Speaker 2: by then I had a couple of kids, so it

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Speaker 2: wasn't a question of to finish off. As most people

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Speaker 2: would be aware, You've got to do another course, which

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Speaker 2: is called the College of Law or the legal workshop,

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Speaker 2: and to do that I got off at a scholarship

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Speaker 2: to do that in Canberra with A and U and

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Speaker 2: the Australian Attorney General's Department. So I joined them, and

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Speaker 2: then didn't like living in Canberra either, realized I was

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Speaker 2: definitely a country boy, and got a job with a

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Speaker 2: law firm Inkyogle, which and opened a branch office in

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Speaker 2: Nimben because I loved Nimben. I thought it was the

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Speaker 2: center of the universe.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I've spent a bit of time at Nimban myself.

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Speaker 1: Were you the radical, going to change the world type

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Speaker 1: UNI student and taking on the world? Was that your thing?

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Speaker 2: Yes, I think you could say that. I was involved

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Speaker 2: in protests. I don't know if you remember a case,

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Speaker 2: but there was a case called Island Roberts where she'd

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Speaker 2: killed her husband, Bruce, and she'd got life imprisonment, and

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Speaker 2: I think my first set of demonstrations were to do

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Speaker 2: with releasing her from custody when really she was just

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Speaker 2: trying to defend herself against domestic vinds. It led to

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Speaker 2: the change in law for provocation as a defense, and

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Speaker 2: you know, at that time the Tazzy Dams marches were happening,

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Speaker 2: and so yeah, I thought it was a great chance

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Speaker 2: to enjoy myself, meet interesting people, particularly the opposite sex,

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Speaker 2: and get involved in politics.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm getting a picture of the type of

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Speaker 1: person you were, and recreational drugs in that environment. I

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Speaker 1: think statute of limitations a pass that and I haven't

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Speaker 1: cautioned you, so I think we can speak openly about that.

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Speaker 2: Indeed, and I've been open about that that. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I should say that in those days, it was very

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Speaker 2: unusual for people to use any drugs other things, just cannabis. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I certainly inhaled and exhaled, fortunately.

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Speaker 1: Not to President Clinton.

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Speaker 2: And I really enjoyed it. I thought cannabis was a

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Speaker 2: terrific drug for me. I didn't like drinking. I didn't

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Speaker 2: like being around people who were drinking that much either.

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Speaker 2: It was pretty agro, whereas smoking was very mellow, and

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Speaker 2: it helped me weirdly focus on my studies enormously. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I did well with my studies. And I know that

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Speaker 2: it's unpopular to say, but for some people it really

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Speaker 2: helped slow me down.

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Speaker 1: I think it's interesting with the drug situation, like when

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Speaker 1: we're talking cannabis and that I know people that, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that drug suits them at whatever it does. It balances

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Speaker 1: out other people that if they touch alcohol, they're going

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Speaker 1: to turn into a night there, you know, or other

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Speaker 1: people can deal with alcohol. It's an individual thing. The

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Speaker 1: effect that has on you living that type of lifestyle.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that served you well when you did

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Speaker 1: eventually start practicing.

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Speaker 2: Law, Yes, I think it did. I mean I joined

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Speaker 2: a small firm that was, and I was doing criminal

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Speaker 2: defense work, doing legal aid, doing aboriginal legal service work,

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Speaker 2: and of course moving to the Far North Coast and

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Speaker 2: having a branch office in Nimben. A significant proportion of

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Speaker 2: my work was drug work, and no one was really

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Speaker 2: specializing in that much. But I enjoyed that kind of work.

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Speaker 2: I enjoyed the clients. I enjoyed the repartee with some

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Speaker 2: of the elements of the drug squad. You know, we

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Speaker 2: loved to hate each other and teased each other on

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Speaker 2: the winds and losses that we had. Probably far too competitive,

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Speaker 2: but I enjoyed the work environment, and I enjoyed that

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Speaker 2: doing drug work, and as you can imagine, there was

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Speaker 2: plenty of it. There was a lot of people being

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Speaker 2: arrested for cannabis plants. It was at the days of

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Speaker 2: the helicopter raids where crops were routinely being seized and

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Speaker 2: burnt and people arrested. There was a lot of people

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Speaker 2: charged just with simple possessions. And yeah, it's sort of

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Speaker 2: motivated me to speak up and speak out about why

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Speaker 2: the law needed to be changed. And I guess I

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Speaker 2: felt completely hypocritical as well, because I was a person

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Speaker 2: who not daily, yeah, in fact, not even weekly, but

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Speaker 2: if I went out, I really liked and enjoyed to

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Speaker 2: have a smoke.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I can understand the conflict there, but that

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Speaker 1: was the environment. Like Nimben. I spent some time up there,

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Speaker 1: not working, but also time up there when I was working,

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Speaker 1: And it was quite funny driving up there, even an

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Speaker 1: unmarked police car. You'd pull up to a commune and

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Speaker 1: the whole commune and disappear into the bushes, calling out

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Speaker 1: government car, government car, just disappearing. And I just a

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Speaker 1: side note, I had a conversation with a family up there,

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Speaker 1: and they were most distraught that they raise their children

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Speaker 1: in very much the nimb and lifestyle, and their children

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Speaker 1: had rebelled, and they were disappointed that they're trying to

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Speaker 1: get careers and they're getting jobs and different things like that.

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Speaker 2: And it's an absolute tragedy when that happens.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they raise them with all the right veys.

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Speaker 2: When you call someone poss rainbow and they still become

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Speaker 2: an accountant, you've definitely failed.

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Speaker 1: Defense. Did you ever consider prosecution? Did you ever go

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Speaker 1: down that path?

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Speaker 2: I did do some prosecuting. I did one of our clients,

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Speaker 2: or several of our clients were local councils and I

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Speaker 2: did some prosecution work there, and there is no doubt

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Speaker 2: that the best training to be a defense lawyer is

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Speaker 2: to do some prosecution and vice versa. A maide of

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Speaker 2: mine who's now the Minister for Local Government, Ron Honig,

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Speaker 2: was a public defender for many years and then he

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Speaker 2: did a stint in the Crown prosecutions and he said

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Speaker 2: to me, I learned more in that six months about

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Speaker 2: being a good defense lawyer, in fact, just being a

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Speaker 2: good lawyer. Yeah. By swapping the side of the fence,

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Speaker 2: and I think doing the prosecution work for local councils

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Speaker 2: for people who had built dangerous structures or had committed

400
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Speaker 2: other environmental type offenses. That was really powerful training ground

401
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Speaker 2: and also showed me that things weren't quite as black

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Speaker 2: and white as as I thought they were. It also

403
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Speaker 2: showed me that a good prosecutor and a good defense

404
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,440
Speaker 2: lawyer together can really get to the truth of a situation,

405
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Speaker 2: normally get an a greed set of facts, normally getting

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Speaker 2: agreed plea, and there's no need for all the difficulties.

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Speaker 2: I did find really quickly that I did not like

408
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Speaker 2: defending sexual assault cases. I found them grueling, and I

409
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Speaker 2: never felt comfortable in the role of cross examining victims

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Speaker 2: of sexual assault.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I would imagine that I know a lot of

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Speaker 1: people in the legal sector, and that's pretty much across

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Speaker 1: the board. That's harder the fences, and sometimes it crosses

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Speaker 1: that line. That must be hard doing that, jumping between

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Speaker 1: the two sides. And you know, as you said, coming

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Speaker 1: to a situation where both parties are amenable, having agreed

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Speaker 1: set of the facts and resolving the situation fairly. That's

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Speaker 1: the ultimate goal, isn't it that you want to achieve

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Speaker 1: in that environment?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, because it means that everyone knows where they're at.

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Speaker 2: And it also means, particularly in violent crimes, that people

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Speaker 2: don't have to give evidence. And I think we would

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Speaker 2: all agree that the process as a victim of crime

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Speaker 2: of giving evidence can often be well, it's often described

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Speaker 2: as being worse than worse than the experience itself, you know,

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Speaker 2: and I think having to relive it and all the

427
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Speaker 2: difficulties associated with that. And the other thing is there's

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Speaker 2: a good rule in law which is if you plead guilty,

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Speaker 2: you get a discount. Yeah, and that it's not as

430
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Speaker 2: big a discount as people realize, but it's a real

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Speaker 2: currot as opposed to to a stick. From a defense

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Speaker 2: perspective and from a prosecutorial perspective.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I see the benefits of that. Then I never

434
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Speaker 1: got bogged down. I know people have really strong views

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Speaker 1: on sentencing and all that, and I personally don't like

436
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 1: in the whole range of offenses where they talk about

437
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:23,160
Speaker 1: mandatory sentencing on offenses. One thing I've learned watching people

438
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: go through the courts is that each case is unique

439
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,440
Speaker 1: in its own own way, and to put a blanket

440
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,199
Speaker 1: a mandatory sentence for if you're convicted of this offense

441
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 1: doesn't always fit the crime.

442
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 2: I totally agree. I think there's a problem with our

443
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 2: sentencing system, and that is that the prosecution don't appeal enough.

444
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 2: It's very hard to get the DPP to appeal a sentence,

445
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 2: particularly from the local court, and what that means is

446
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 2: that the whole appeal system is skewed, so only defense

447
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 2: lawyers appeal and then magistrates are sitting there getting their

448
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,880
Speaker 2: sentences lessened more often than not. And in the whole

449
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 2: time I was a magistrate, I never had one sentence increased.

450
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 2: In fact, I never had a New South Wales DPP

451
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,200
Speaker 2: appeal against a sentence. Now that's just wrong because I'm

452
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 2: sure I was too lenient on occasions. I mean, you

453
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 2: try not to be and you try and err on

454
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 2: the side of right, but the system is skewed and

455
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 2: it shouldn't be and we wouldn't need mandatory sentencing if

456
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:25,919
Speaker 2: we had a decent and proper appeal system.

457
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting the appeal system. Out of all the

458
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 1: aspects of court, I found the appeal system. I could

459
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,159
Speaker 1: sit in court being involved in appeals and it just

460
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 1: seems so complex, the appeal system. Quite often I'd sit

461
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: there and I think I've got reasonable intelligence in trying

462
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 1: to understand the process of courts. But I've got to

463
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 1: say sometimes I've sat in court, especially appeals at the

464
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 1: High Court, and I'm sitting there, going, what are we

465
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 1: talking about here? It's very complex totally.

466
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 2: And then one of the great things about being magistrates

467
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 2: is you never had to deal with anybody else's appeals

468
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 2: because you were right at the bottom of the barrel.

469
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 2: You were at a court of first instance, and yeah,

470
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:07,919
Speaker 2: you know, it was just it was just you were

471
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 2: the first one to have a go and if people

472
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 2: had a different view, well that That was fine by me.

473
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 2: I never got upset by appeals, and you're right, I

474
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:16,640
Speaker 2: often didn't understand them either.

475
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, just on this nuanced point of law that would

476
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 1: just go over my head sometimes. How long were you

477
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,479
Speaker 1: practicing law before you became a magistrate? How long were

478
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: you doing that for?

479
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 2: I was practicing for about ten years before I became

480
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 2: a magistrate. But during that time also I got invited

481
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 2: along with another local lawyer, to help establish Southern Cross

482
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 2: University Law School, and so I was a part time

483
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 2: lawyer for the last four or five years as we

484
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 2: set up that law school and I became an academic

485
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 2: at it. It quickly was really apparent to local practitioners

486
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 2: in those days. If you wanted to practice in New

487
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 2: South Wales, you had to do your degree in New

488
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 2: South Wales and you had to get admitted in New

489
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 2: South Wales. So all the lawyers on the far North

490
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 2: coast would have to Anyone who wanted to be a

491
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,640
Speaker 2: lawyer from a rural or regional area in New South

492
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 2: Wales had to go to Sydney, and that was just

493
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 2: so it was really difficult for many people. It was

494
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 2: a barrier. So we thought, well, let's start the first

495
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 2: non metropolitan law school in Australia which.

496
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 1: We did that you've spent four years. There was it

497
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 1: ninety eight that you was at research that you did

498
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: in prisons and wrote a book about Can we talk

499
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 1: about that before we talk about your role as the magistrate.

500
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: That was before you became a magistrate.

501
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 2: It was I was representing a young man from the

502
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 2: Gold Coast who'd come down to Tunneble Falls community and

503
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 2: conducted a raid. Now that sounds like a police action,

504
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 2: but in fact hippies were pretty vulnerable to people coming

505
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 2: in garments and stealing their crops and he had been

506
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:58,360
Speaker 2: involved in that. He was nineteen and going on fifteen.

507
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 2: And when his bail was refused, I said too. It

508
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 2: was in the district court. I said, you know, this

509
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 2: young man is likely to get sexually assaulted in prison

510
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 2: and that's why you should give him bail. And the

511
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 2: judge said to me, well, where's the proof of that,

512
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 2: where's the proof that anyone that that happens? And Corrective

513
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 2: Services minister had said, well, rape is inevitable in prison

514
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 2: and I quoted that. The judge wasn't too impressed with that,

515
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 2: and I thought, give me a chance. I'll go and

516
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 2: get some I'll find out there must be research on it.

517
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 2: And I found out that with in Australia there was none,

518
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 2: absolutely no research. So that case that young man was

519
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 2: bail refused and after he was sexually assaulted in prison

520
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 2: and he killed himself, that really motivated me to start

521
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 2: researching this issue, and so I got some funding. And

522
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 2: I suppose also I was motivated by the fact that

523
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 2: I was an academic who didn't have a higher degree,

524
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 2: and that was a bit of a no no. So

525
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 2: I decided to do a high degree in research, interviewing

526
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 2: three hundred prisoners aged eighteen to twenty five as to

527
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 2: whether they'd been assaulted or sexually assaulted while they're in prison,

528
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 2: and unsurprisingly, about one in three had been sexually assaulted

529
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 2: while they're in prison. Sometimes that took the form of

530
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 2: what we would call rape, but often it was a

531
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 2: protective pairing. In other words, they would pair with someone

532
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 2: who was bigger, tougher than and would protect them in

533
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 2: exchange for sexual favors. So that research was published and

534
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 2: caused quite a stir. It caused a few things, the

535
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 2: segregation of eighteen to twenty five year old prisoners with

536
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 2: each other, rather than older prisoners, which was I think

537
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 2: a start the introduction of condoms into prisons which exists

538
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 2: to this day, and because the HIV AIDS was huge

539
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 2: at that time, and also a recognition that technology has

540
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 2: huge and obviously an ongoing role to play in keeping

541
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 2: prisoners safe. So I then published that research as a

542
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 2: book and some fun touring with that in the United

543
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 2: States in particular where it became Unfortunately, I donated the

544
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 2: royalties very early on. I wish I hadn't.

545
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: Just didn't think clearly enough on it.

546
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 2: I just thought it wouldn't sell many.

547
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 1: But the book Fear or Favor Sexual Assault of Young Persons.

548
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: I'm reading through the parts of it, and yeah, the

549
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: statistics that came out were quite frightening. And when you

550
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: talk one in three and even as a police officer,

551
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: and very much as a police officer, you had empathy

552
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 1: on what you were doing, but you didn't really consider

553
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: what happens when you send people to prison. But there

554
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: have been many times when I locked people up and

555
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 1: I know what happens in prison and the type of

556
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: people in prison, and you think what's going to happen

557
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: to them doesn't really fit the crime. They've committed and

558
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: it was almost you look. I looked with pity and

559
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: thinking this is terrible. I know what's going to happen

560
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: to this person. They will not be able to look

561
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: after themselves in prison, so they'll either have to pair

562
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: up with someone for protection or they will be attacked

563
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: in the full on sexual assault. And the impact that

564
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 1: has on people, As you said by your client, that

565
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: a result in him taking his own life.

566
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 2: And let's face people who go into prison and are

567
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 2: victimized are not likely to have great self restraint learn

568
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 2: the kind of skills we would hope they learned not

569
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 2: to re offend in that kind of environment. Of course,

570
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 2: it means they wouldn't want to go back, but as

571
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 2: we all know, criminogenic behavior is partly willpower and partly circumstance.

572
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 2: So I hope things have improved. I suspect they have.

573
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 2: I think that there's many more avenues for complaint, a

574
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 2: lot more protection, and the technology means that most areas

575
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 2: of prisons are now covered by CCT.

576
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 1: Well the technology, and I spent some time in prison

577
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: of recent times doing a podcast series, and I was

578
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: fascinated by the technology that's available now that it might

579
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 1: be the offense or an assault happened now, but they

580
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 1: can look back at all the movements week prior to

581
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 1: that and from all different angles, and yeah, it has

582
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: to make it more difficult. But I've seen not so

583
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: much when I was in the police because it wasn't

584
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 1: the type of conversations that I would be having. But

585
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: since I've been out of the police and people I've

586
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 1: met doing this podcast the effect that that has on people.

587
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: And there was a person sitting here in the studio,

588
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: Russell Manster, who's sadly passed away, but talked about being

589
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: sent to a prison as a seventeen year old and

590
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 1: putting a cell with to sex offenders and just brutalized

591
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 1: for days on end, and he came out angry and

592
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: subsequently spent the next twenty years in and out of jail,

593
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: and his whole life was dictated by this is never

594
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: going to happen to me again, yep.

595
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 2: And I think that undertaking research like that was important

596
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 2: but also showed me that there's more ways to change

597
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 2: things protest, and that the role of academia in society

598
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 2: is actually really important when it picks up on it

599
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 2: and is able to highlight you know, not things that

600
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 2: are obscure, but things that are fundamental. I mean, any

601
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 2: of us could go to jail. That's the reality. Me

602
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: for my price sins, you for your price sins. We

603
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 2: could all end up in jail, and if we do,

604
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 2: we should be safe.

605
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not part of the punishment. And you're quite

606
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: right with the academic study, the research and all the

607
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: information that can back it up that when this next

608
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: young lawyer like you were at the time saying, well,

609
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: I'm concerned about what will happen to my client, and here,

610
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: in fact, there is a study that shows yeah, it

611
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 1: does carry weight. I think I'd like to think and

612
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: a shout out to correct New Services and just a

613
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: bit of a bit of a stay. But I went

614
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: to and you practiced in Wellington, or you've presided in

615
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 1: Wellington the mcquarie Correctional Center, where they're approaching prisons a

616
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 1: completely different way, and a lot of that is that

617
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,439
Speaker 1: the prisoners feel safe. And I'm not just talking about

618
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:22,240
Speaker 1: sexual assaults, but in that environment, prisoners are treaty with respect.

619
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: I hadn't seen a jail like it where they're calling

620
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: the corrective services officers by names and there's mutual respect

621
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 1: both sides shout out not only to the prisoners but

622
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: corrective services officers. They work for six hours in whatever

623
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: industry they could find within the prison, and they study

624
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: for six hours and then they all stay in the dorm.

625
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 1: The interesting part of all the prisoners residing in the dorm,

626
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 1: I thought there'd be a bloodbath. I thought, yeah, maximum

627
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,280
Speaker 1: security prisoners twenty five in one dorm where they're pretty

628
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 1: well free to roam and do what they want. It

629
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 1: actually taught them social skills. And I joked with them

630
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 1: in there, and subsequently that if there was someone within

631
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: that pod, the twenty five that they didn't get on,

632
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: they'd almost like one of those reality TV shows, vote

633
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,919
Speaker 1: them off the island. We don't like this person, could

634
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: we move out? And I've got to say I was

635
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 1: so impressed. And it hasn't been running long enough to

636
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 1: see the after effect the studies that once they've been

637
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: released from prison, But the majority of prisoners I spoke

638
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,320
Speaker 1: to in there said what it sets us up for

639
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: is that it teaches us how to integrate back into society.

640
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: And yeah, these weren't all the do good at prisoners.

641
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 1: These were some hard cases, you know, the people that

642
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 1: we all would have heard their names in the media

643
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 1: for the crimes that they've committed, and some of the

644
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: younger blakes, and there was a lot of people in

645
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: there for lengthy The food there was very good because

646
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,320
Speaker 1: there's a lot of chefs, because chefs got involved in

647
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 1: drug dealing or who would have guessed, But there were

648
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: people serving lengthy custoviial sentences. And they said, when we're

649
00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 1: in other prisons, the more traditional prisons, every time we

650
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: walked out of our cell, we had to bridge up

651
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: and get ready to take on whoever was going to

652
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 1: come at us. And there'd always be someone here. They

653
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 1: felt safe, they could relax, they could let their guard down.

654
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 1: And I've got to say I was so impressed, and

655
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: I honestly hober gets that type of prison gets integrated

656
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 1: across the board.

657
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,320
Speaker 2: Look, there's some great things happening in that area. And

658
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 2: also some of the specialist Aboriginal units are really doing

659
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 2: some great work with Aboriginal young people and Aboriginal adults

660
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 2: in terms of connection to culture, and the studies show

661
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 2: that that leaves will lead to less likely to reoffend.

662
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 2: The enemy of a good prison system is the tabloid media,

663
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 2: often having a go at it being too soft. You

664
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 2: know what the real outcome that you want from a

665
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,760
Speaker 2: prison is people not to return, and we've been failing

666
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 2: at that. About seventy percent of prisoners will go back

667
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:01,879
Speaker 2: within five years. Now, prisons like you've just maybe you're

668
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 2: not going to get to eighty percent not returning, but

669
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:06,720
Speaker 2: you might well get to fifty or sixty or seventy

670
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 2: percent not returning. And it looks, you know, the Henry

671
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:16,800
Speaker 2: Lawson wrote in I think nineteen seventeen when he was

672
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 2: in prison, he said, the press are printing their smug

673
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 2: smug lies and paying their shameful debt. They talk of

674
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 2: the benefits prisoners have and the things that prisoners get,

675
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,320
Speaker 2: and you know, we need to look at prisons and

676
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 2: go I don't actually care if there's great education or

677
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 2: great physical surroundings or good food or whatever, as long

678
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 2: as people are less likely to defend, because particularly violent offenders,

679
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 2: that has such a long lasting impact. And we know

680
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 2: that most violent offenders are domestic violence offenders, and we

681
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 2: know the impact that has on their children and their

682
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 2: children's children and their families and their partners. And we're

683
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 2: just anything to put a stop to that. I don't

684
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 2: care what it costs or how soft it looks.

685
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, David, when I spent time in there, and

686
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: there was a couple of weeks and I thought, am

687
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 1: I going soft here? Am I taking that prisoner aside?

688
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: Because you had that go soft on crime? What am

689
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: I talking about? The next cop go soft on crime?

690
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 1: I spoke to Ken Marslu His son was murdered in

691
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 1: an arm robbery. Just a young fella working at the

692
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 1: pizza hut, paying his way through university and an arm

693
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 1: robbery and he was shot and kill. That was a

694
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 1: horrendous crime. And Ken was very angry and campaigned and

695
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 1: led enough is enough and different different campaigns, mandatory sentence

696
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 1: in getting tough on crime. And I've become quite close

697
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,399
Speaker 1: with Ken since I've left the cops. We knew each

698
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 1: other before, and I rang him on, Okay, this is

699
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 1: what I'm seeing in prison. What's your take on this? Ken?

700
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 1: And he said, that's about getting smart on crime, not

701
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 1: getting tough on crime. If we can reduce crime, there's

702
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:02,720
Speaker 1: less victims. Everyone wins. And yeah, that strengthened my resolve. That. Okay,

703
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 1: that's if anyone's got the right to really question what

704
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 1: goes on in prisons at someone that's lost their child

705
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 1: in circumstances like Ken did, and yeah, I think everyone's

706
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 1: a winner. And as we're talking the other day the

707
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 1: cost of keeping prisoners in custody, that what if we

708
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 1: channel that money somewhere else to rehabilitate diversionary programs that

709
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 1: keep people out of prison. Has to be a benefit to.

710
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 2: It, absolutely, And the other whole aspect of that is, well,

711
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 2: who's in prison and who needs to be in prison

712
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 2: if we make sure that you got the right people,

713
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 2: the people who really need to be detained. And you

714
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 2: and I both started in an era where fine defaulters

715
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 2: were thrown into prison, where possession of a small amount

716
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 2: of drug led to a prison term. Whereas you know,

717
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 2: we've rationalized that to an extent. We need to always

718
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 2: be focused on that if the right people are in prison,

719
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 2: the community is protected, and not just immediately but in

720
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 2: the medium to long term. If they're treated like humans

721
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:11,399
Speaker 2: and given responsibility and learned decision making processes.

722
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 1: Well, if they're treated like animals, they come out like animals.

723
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:18,240
Speaker 1: And I've heard prisoners say that, but even the prisoners

724
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 1: in these maximum security prisons acknowledge that society is not

725
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 1: for everyone. Like there's people in here and they'll point

726
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 1: to them, go that person should never be released, and yeah,

727
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: there's one of the people that society need to be

728
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 1: protected by. Okay. Magistrates, Yes, when describe the role of

729
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 1: a magistrate, because people look at the magistrates and I'm surprised,

730
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: I'm constantly surprised how many people never actually experience court.

731
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 1: And it's yeah, there's only a small percentage of either

732
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 1: the ones that commit offenses or the ones that have

733
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,839
Speaker 1: been caught up in witnessing a crime. There's a lot

734
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:58,879
Speaker 1: of people that never see and inside of the court.

735
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 1: So what is the all of the magistrate? How would

736
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: you describe it?

737
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 2: You know, the magistrate is the call fates of the

738
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 2: criminal justice system. Every single case starts, every single criminal

739
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,840
Speaker 2: case starts in the magistrate's court. But at such a

740
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 2: very job. Magistrates are also coroners, so we also deal

741
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 2: with cronial matters. Magistrates also have a civil jurisdiction, so

742
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 2: disputes between people up to one hundred thousand dollars are

743
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 2: dealt within the local court. But crime, all crimes start

744
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 2: in the magistrate's court. And what that means is even

745
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:35,359
Speaker 2: a murderer will start in the magistrate's court and then

746
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,280
Speaker 2: go up to high courts, But about ninety three percent

747
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 2: of all cases start and finish in the magistrate's court.

748
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,280
Speaker 2: And they used to just deal with summary offenses, traffic matters,

749
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:50,280
Speaker 2: very minor offenses. But over the years, the efficiency dividend

750
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 2: of having just a magistrate, not a judge and jury

751
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 2: determining matters means that the jurisdiction has expanded, So magistrates

752
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,720
Speaker 2: deal basically with people who've been charged with the vast

753
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 2: majority of offenses and determine their guilt and if they're guilty,

754
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 2: determine their sentence. So the average day of a magistrate

755
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 2: would be dealing with a defendant hearing, for example, where

756
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 2: someone's pleading not guilty to a domestic violence offense or

757
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 2: a cultivation of prohibited plan defense or a white collar crime,

758
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 2: or more likely than not, a traffic offense, and determining

759
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 2: if they're guilty. The maximum penalty magistrates can impose this

760
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,399
Speaker 2: five years imprisonment, so nothing like the district court which

761
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 2: has unlimited and supreme court, but still the nuts and

762
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 2: bolts of the criminal justice system revolve around the local

763
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,360
Speaker 2: court and the magistrate sits like a judge, but without

764
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 2: the superannuation.

765
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 1: And without the wink and come on, David, let that go.

766
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: Let that go.

767
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 2: I've let it go, or associates for that matter. But

768
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 2: so there's magistrates in every country town either ones that

769
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 2: come in each you know, up to certain size. So

770
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 2: even small towns in this area, places like Kyogle and

771
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 2: mullam Bimbi and MacLean will each have a magistrate visiting them,

772
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 2: you know, once a week or once a month, or

773
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 2: a few days a week, or in Lismore and the

774
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 2: bigger places every day. So magistrates are at the coal

775
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 2: face of the criminal justice system and they are the

776
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 2: judicial officer that most people will come in contact with.

777
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 2: Just in New South Wales now they're called judges of

778
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 2: the local court starting next year. Yeah, I heard that

779
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 2: and it's been the case in the Act in the

780
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 2: Northern Territory for a while and I think it reflects

781
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 2: better the role. I mean, who knows, You're right, people

782
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 2: don't know what a magistrate does, but they'd be more

783
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 2: likely to know what a judge does. And really they're

784
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 2: just judges of the local court.

785
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would imagine it's a lonely job. Sitting there,

786
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 1: and I say that from my observations, like the prosecution

787
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,439
Speaker 1: they've got their team, the defense have got their team.

788
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 1: People in the gallery, the media are hanging out doing

789
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,919
Speaker 1: what the media do. A magistrate all on their own

790
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 1: and making some very big decisions knowing that they're potentially

791
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 1: going to be scrutinized by some very informed legal people

792
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 1: sitting above them for different matters.

793
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 2: Well, and not just scrutinized by them. When I was

794
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 2: first appointed, my first appointment was Dubbo and the local

795
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 2: member was Jerry Peacock. And never had you met a

796
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 2: more law an order a person than Jerry Peacock, who

797
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 2: also owned the local newspaper. So you can imagine it

798
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 2: was a real tra effector so. But yes, it is

799
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:36,840
Speaker 2: lonely because lawyers tend to mix with lawyers in a

800
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 2: country town. And you know, I was a country practitioner.

801
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:42,280
Speaker 2: Most of or a lot of my friends were lawyers.

802
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 2: And then you go to the bench and of course

803
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 2: you can't mix with the lawyers because they're before you.

804
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 2: So it is lonely and country magistrates by their very nature,

805
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 2: sit on their own. It's not like the Downing Center

806
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 2: or one of the big city courts where you might

807
00:44:57,719 --> 00:44:59,839
Speaker 2: have twenty magistrates and you can all get together at

808
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 2: more morning tea and have a chat. This was and

809
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 2: shortly after I. I mean, you know, believe it or not.

810
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 2: When I started, we used to have morning teas with

811
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,240
Speaker 2: all the lawyers and all the prosecutors. The police sergeant's

812
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 2: wife would traditionally put it on and we would all

813
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 2: gaggle and sort out the cases. Well, that was soon

814
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 2: thrown out quite rightly, but it did mean that it

815
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 2: was our pretty lonely existence. And you know, I was

816
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 2: living in Dubbo and you know, you're buying a newspaper

817
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:29,799
Speaker 2: and the newsagents say why aren't you locking people up more?

818
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:32,879
Speaker 2: And you go to the checkout and the young woman

819
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 2: working there saying, hey, you're not going to lock my

820
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 2: boyfriend up, are you? And you know, so you couldn't

821
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 2: avoid the area.

822
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 1: That's like I hear the dramas have been the local

823
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: cop that you're never really off duty. But yeah, it's

824
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:50,720
Speaker 1: pressure times ten when you're the magistrate of young Susie's

825
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 1: coming before you next week. She's a good girl as

826
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 1: you're buying your cup of coffee or something like that.

827
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 2: So it's I think It is really true of local

828
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:03,439
Speaker 2: sergeants too, And I think policemen's kids like magistrates kids,

829
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 2: you know, they get a hard time at times.

830
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 1: Yes, well, when did you make the decision? So you

831
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 1: practiced law for a period of time and then you

832
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 1: set up the university, the law faculty there, when did

833
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: you decide that I want to be a magistrate?

834
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,800
Speaker 2: Jeff Shaw was the Attorney General and he and I

835
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:26,240
Speaker 2: had had some arguments about a whole set of things.

836
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 2: We got on very well, but he was sick of

837
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 2: me pestering and about law changes I wanted to see,

838
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,399
Speaker 2: and he said, I'm going to stop having to deal

839
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 2: with you soon, and I said, well, good luck with that.

840
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 2: And then I got the phone call that you least expect,

841
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 2: which was from the Attorney's the Governor's private secretary, which

842
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,800
Speaker 2: was to offer me offer me a job as a magistrate.

843
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:50,840
Speaker 2: And I thought, well, you know, I'd come across some

844
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,399
Speaker 2: really good magistrates in my time, there was one phil

845
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 2: Molean who since passed away. But I'd also come across

846
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 2: some terrible magistrates who I had very little respect for.

847
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 2: And I thought, well, I can do this job. Well,

848
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 2: I can change the world. There's things that I really

849
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 2: want to make a difference on aboriginal over representation, drug laws,

850
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 2: you know, things like that. And so I went into

851
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 2: it with the usual gusto of a good lefty protester

852
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 2: and thought I could really change things from the inside.

853
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 2: And that's that's why I did it. Also, you know,

854
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 2: to be mercenary about it. It meant it was more

855
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 2: than a doubling of my salary. It looked like a

856
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:33,879
Speaker 2: terrific secure job until you're at at that time, till

857
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 2: you're seventy years of old, and I thought, well, this

858
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:36,879
Speaker 2: is this is pretty good.

859
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: Now. Dubbo is where you first posted. That's a tough

860
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: area to be the local court magistrate. I've spent a

861
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 1: lot of time in Dubbo, not work there, attached there,

862
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:51,359
Speaker 1: but through murder investigations and the reputation of the town,

863
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 1: you would have a lot of people coming through through

864
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: the court.

865
00:47:55,160 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 2: There, absolutely, and you know, the magistrates out there aired

866
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:04,760
Speaker 2: the circuit work as well, which was really hard towns,

867
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 2: towns that were racked with really deep social problems and

868
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 2: the criminal justice system. The police and the magistrate and

869
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 2: the defense and the prosecutors were meant to solve these

870
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 2: problems and of course we couldn't. We were dealing with

871
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 2: the we're putting a band aid over a gaping wound

872
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:24,840
Speaker 2: of a whole range of different things. And you know,

873
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 2: I would sit in many towns where the only people

874
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 2: I would ever lock up were Aboriginal people and that's depressing.

875
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 1: And look, I'm very much aware of the problems and

876
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 1: the high representation of the Indigenous population in our prisons

877
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:44,840
Speaker 1: and in our court system, and it's it's quite alarming.

878
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 1: I have an association with a lot of Indigenous people

879
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:52,239
Speaker 1: and through them a work mainly through a workers as

880
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 1: a police officer, and I know that I always felt

881
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 1: they were disadvantage in the justice system. They weren't comfortable

882
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 1: in the court, see situation. There was a whole range

883
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:05,359
Speaker 1: of things that made me feel that there's a reason

884
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 1: there's a high representation there and the problem is not

885
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 1: going to be fixed the way that we approached that.

886
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 1: What's your take on it, because you would have seen

887
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 1: a lot of that I would imagine in the areas

888
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 1: like Dubbo and out from there.

889
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a disheartening. It's one of those wicked problems

890
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 2: that and I think the first thing to recognize is

891
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:27,800
Speaker 2: the criminal justice system can do very little. By the

892
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 2: time people get to court, by the time they're committing offenses,

893
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 2: by the time their families are dissolving, it's too late

894
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 2: to do that much. And certainly, you know, imprisoning and

895
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 2: the like, and the extent of the problem was and

896
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:46,839
Speaker 2: is overwhelming. I was really blessed by having great prosecutors

897
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 2: who saw the problem and bent over backwards to do

898
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 2: what we could within the limitations of the system to

899
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 2: deal with people appropriately, and of course talented, young, idealistic

900
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 2: Aboriginal legal service lawyers who any of whom are now

901
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,800
Speaker 2: the judges and politicians that we are from all sides

902
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 2: of politics that speak sense to this issue. So we

903
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:14,239
Speaker 2: muddled through, but it was overwhelmingly depressing. I remember a

904
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:18,360
Speaker 2: young man who in Wellington Local Court who said to me,

905
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:22,760
Speaker 2: I sucked his lawyer and said, I'm guilty. He'd robbed

906
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 2: a bank with a syringe. He said, I'm guilty. I

907
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 2: just want you to lock me up, but I want

908
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 2: to go to the big House, meaning Bathist jail. And

909
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:32,799
Speaker 2: I said, well, why do you want to go there?

910
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 2: And he said, well, my dad there and my grandfather's there,

911
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 2: and I'd really like to spend some time with them,

912
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 2: and I just you know, that sinking feeling and the

913
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 2: pitious stomach saying that's what you aspire to. So it

914
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 2: was really quite overwhelming, and we could tinker at the edges.

915
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 2: But the problems of Aboriginal over representation in the criminal

916
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:57,800
Speaker 2: justice system are largely not about the criminal justice system.

917
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 2: They're about the education system, and they're about health. They're

918
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 2: about lack of welfare and support. And we know that

919
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 2: programs since then, you know, are like justice reinvestment, like

920
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 2: circle sentencing. None of that existed then. Many of the

921
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 2: sentencing options that are available community service work didn't exist then,

922
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:21,280
Speaker 2: so you know, we were very limited. It was very difficult.

923
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 2: We all had the goal and I mean the police

924
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:26,320
Speaker 2: as well, had the goal of keeping people out of

925
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 2: jail as much as we could and keeping and keeping

926
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 2: the community safe. But it was an uphill battle and

927
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 2: inherently depressing. I don't mean that from a clinical point

928
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 2: of view, but it's just like the drudgery of it.

929
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 1: Really. Yeah. No, I'm hearing what you're saying, and I

930
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:46,279
Speaker 1: pick up on the fact that we can't fix it,

931
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:49,399
Speaker 1: that the justice system and prevention is better than cure

932
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 1: and if we can prevent them going down that path,

933
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 1: like the indigenous communities, and when you talk about a

934
00:51:57,200 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 1: grandfather in prison and the father in prison and the

935
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:01,800
Speaker 1: young film, I wants to go in there to to

936
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 1: seeze relatives. That sort of breaks your heart, doesn't it.

937
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:09,239
Speaker 1: That's what hope has that young fellow got. I've heard

938
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 1: people talk about when kids are going off track and

939
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 1: like restorative justice and diversionary programs. With one person that

940
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 1: might have been Jaron Badge, an Aboriginal lady that grew

941
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 1: up in the block and joined the police, very very

942
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 1: impressive person. She's out of the police now, but she

943
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 1: talked about a person that was a young fellow that

944
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 1: was sentenced for minor crimes that might have been a

945
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:38,680
Speaker 1: bible stealing a bible of something, and instead of a sentence,

946
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:40,840
Speaker 1: he was told to hang out with one of the

947
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 1: elders and go fishing with the elder for a couple

948
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 1: of weeks. And I think, what a great idea something

949
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:48,839
Speaker 1: like that is that could potentially make a difference, break

950
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 1: that cycle.

951
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:52,279
Speaker 2: I saw that a lot with circle sentencing. When I

952
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 2: was in Lismore for ten years, we ran a circle

953
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 2: sentencing and so that meant that offenders who pleaded guilty,

954
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 2: instead of being sends by me, went before a circle.

955
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 2: And the circle included the victim of the crime, the

956
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:09,719
Speaker 2: police officer involved, and a circle of elders as well

957
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:11,360
Speaker 2: as the defense team and all the rest of it.

958
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 2: So it was a big circle. But you know, there

959
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 2: was more often than not there was no dry eye

960
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:20,800
Speaker 2: in the place. You know, it was emotional and it

961
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 2: was genuine, and it was it was doing that. It

962
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 2: was seeking to utilize the wisdom and respect for elders

963
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 2: to affect a proper sentence that would be less likely

964
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:35,400
Speaker 2: for people to re offend. And of course it's proven

965
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:39,839
Speaker 2: to be so, which is why circle sentencing is universally

966
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 2: seen as not the solution, but as part of a solution.

967
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 1: And if we put our efforts in and our money

968
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:48,840
Speaker 1: at that point in time, maybe we don't have to

969
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:51,280
Speaker 1: spend the money we do down the track with people

970
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:54,239
Speaker 1: when they're incarcerated and all the impact that.

971
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:58,399
Speaker 2: Has absolutely And you know, I finished up ten years

972
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 2: on the circuit at Lismore, done and I said to

973
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 2: some one of the eldest the very last circle that

974
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 2: I did, you know, I really miss you guys. I've

975
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 2: learned so much. I'm so glad for your involvement. And

976
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 2: I just wondered how much you paid for this and

977
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:17,200
Speaker 2: they said, oh, we're not paid. And I said, this

978
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 2: is every week ten years we've been meeting as a circle.

979
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:24,440
Speaker 2: And they go, yep, yep, that's my own time. Not

980
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 2: paid a cent, you know, And I thought, there's the

981
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 2: defense lawyer and the magistrate and the police officer were

982
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:33,799
Speaker 2: all being paid, and the eldest themselves. This is their

983
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 2: input into the next generation that they care so much about.

984
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 2: And you know, it was really showed the commitment of

985
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:42,800
Speaker 2: those people.

986
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:46,200
Speaker 1: David, you touched on something that I learned very much.

987
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:48,200
Speaker 1: After I left the police. I thought I was a big,

988
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 1: tough crime fighter and making a difference on crime. And

989
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:55,600
Speaker 1: when I've stepped away from policing, I've looked at some

990
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:58,640
Speaker 1: people that are doing stuff exactly as you've just described

991
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:02,360
Speaker 1: and not not getting paid or doing it just because

992
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 1: it's the right thing to do, and they're making more

993
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 1: difference on reducing crime than I ever could with a

994
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:08,960
Speaker 1: pair of handcuffs and a gun.

995
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 2: Or sitting on the bench with a gavel.

996
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 1: Yeah for sure. Yeah, And I would imagine that would

997
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:17,600
Speaker 1: be part of it. There's a magistrate feeling that frustration.

998
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:20,799
Speaker 1: I can see it, I can feel it, but there's

999
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 1: nothing I can do about it. It's a system and

1000
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:27,239
Speaker 1: the systems set up, and I don't I can tell

1001
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:29,880
Speaker 1: that you care about the job that you do, but

1002
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 1: I don't see you as someone that's just naive to

1003
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:35,279
Speaker 1: the fact. You know, Coulby, let everyone walk free and

1004
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 1: there'll be no problems people the society. Society do need

1005
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 1: to be protected. But I heard an interview that you

1006
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:45,800
Speaker 1: did where you're talking about a young fella that couldn't

1007
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 1: be given bail or he couldn't be released because of

1008
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 1: the nature of the offense, and you ended up catching

1009
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 1: a plane with him. Do you want to just tell

1010
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:58,000
Speaker 1: that story? Because when you talk about dry eyes, I

1011
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:01,879
Speaker 1: was walking along listening to you on that talking about

1012
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:04,239
Speaker 1: I thought that's really really sad, and you could just

1013
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 1: picture it.

1014
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 2: So we used to fly into circuit courts and Brewarrener

1015
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:11,239
Speaker 2: was one of those courts, and when I got there

1016
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:13,759
Speaker 2: one day, the registrar, who's the clerk of the court,

1017
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:18,560
Speaker 2: the administrative person there said, look, we've got no police transport.

1018
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:21,480
Speaker 2: You can't refuse anyone bail any young people bail because

1019
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:24,560
Speaker 2: there's no police officers to take them. And I said, well,

1020
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 2: I'll do my best anyway. In the middle of the day,

1021
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 2: lo and behold, the young person was arrested and there

1022
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 2: was no way he was getting bail, that's for sure,

1023
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 2: and nobody wanted him to get bail and anyway, so

1024
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:38,600
Speaker 2: I refused him bail. And then I got on the

1025
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:40,640
Speaker 2: plane to fly back, and it was like an eight

1026
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 2: seven seedar and I was on one side, and sitting

1027
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:48,879
Speaker 2: right next to me was him, handcuffed to the handhold

1028
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 2: there and looking pretty terrified. Anyway, we acknowledged each other.

1029
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 2: I should say as a prelude, Brewarrener has the oldest

1030
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:59,280
Speaker 2: man made structure in the world, which is the fish traps,

1031
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 2: thirty thousand years old, and you can really only fathom

1032
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 2: them from the air, this intricate pattern of stonework that

1033
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:11,279
Speaker 2: traps the river when it floods, and then people would

1034
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:14,960
Speaker 2: have fish for years, sometimes decades between floods by trapping

1035
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 2: the fishing these dams. So that's about ten times older

1036
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:25,080
Speaker 2: than the Pyramids. In any event, So the plane goes

1037
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 2: to take off and I could see he was shaking,

1038
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:29,920
Speaker 2: and I said to him have you ever been on

1039
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 2: a plane before? He said, I've never been out of

1040
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 2: Brewarna before. And anyway, so we then taxied around and

1041
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:39,960
Speaker 2: started to take off, and as we started to take off,

1042
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 2: he started gagging. The police officer sitting behind him couldn't

1043
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 2: do much, so I grabbed my sick bag, and I

1044
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:48,880
Speaker 2: was holding the sick bag and not really liking bodily

1045
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 2: fluids too much. I just looked out the window and

1046
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:54,120
Speaker 2: he's vomiting in the bag, and I'm looking out at

1047
00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 2: the fish traps as we're taking off, and I just

1048
00:57:57,160 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 2: think that freeze frame of me. It just sums up

1049
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:03,720
Speaker 2: everything that's wrong with the criminal justice system and the

1050
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:08,080
Speaker 2: culture that we're ignoring of these of these ancient people

1051
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:11,040
Speaker 2: with ancient wisdom and connection to land, and there we

1052
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:14,320
Speaker 2: are taking him away from his community and there he

1053
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 2: is vomiting and scared and the police and me. I mean,

1054
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 2: just the whole picture is just one of sadness.

1055
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 1: Really. Yeah. When I heard that, I could just imagine

1056
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:27,720
Speaker 1: that and really in a world that he could not

1057
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 1: understand too in a plane, first time in the plane,

1058
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:33,280
Speaker 1: and it is just terrified, and.

1059
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:36,400
Speaker 2: I mean, now we have language for this. This was

1060
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 2: you know, almost thirty years ago. Now we have language

1061
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:41,360
Speaker 2: for this, which is things like fas D. I mean,

1062
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:43,720
Speaker 2: this was a young man who did not understand the

1063
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 2: consequences of his actions. I mean, I think all of

1064
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:51,600
Speaker 2: us with children know that many children still don't know

1065
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 2: the consequences of their actions. But this is a really

1066
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 2: fundamental problem. And you know, now one would hope we

1067
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:01,560
Speaker 2: would be treating this younger rather than just locking them up.

1068
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:06,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think those type of improvements and it's not easy.

1069
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:08,920
Speaker 1: We're seeing here going it's not waving a wand and

1070
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 1: the world will be fixed. We might take a break

1071
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:16,280
Speaker 1: at this point. When we come back, I'll talk more

1072
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 1: about your role as a magistrate because twenty one years,

1073
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:21,800
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've seen a lot talk about the impact

1074
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:25,000
Speaker 1: of drugs and in particular ice, when you've seen ice

1075
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:27,320
Speaker 1: come in. I saw that in the latter part of

1076
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,280
Speaker 1: my police career, the type of impact, but that sort

1077
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 1: of changed the dynamics for what you were dealing with

1078
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 1: in the courts. I think you've had dealings with sovereign

1079
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:42,640
Speaker 1: citizens there. That's always an interesting chat. On my catch

1080
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 1: killers have upset a couple of sovereign citizens on things

1081
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:49,440
Speaker 1: that we've said from people that were impacted by sovereign citizens.

1082
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:54,600
Speaker 1: I'd also like to take a dive into your thoughts

1083
00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 1: on artificial intelligence AI and how that's going to impact

1084
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:01,640
Speaker 1: on law down down the track, because I think that's

1085
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 1: an interesting area to go to. And I do want

1086
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 1: to speak to you about the reason as a magistrate,

1087
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 1: and we talk about a lonely job and a risky job.

1088
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:12,600
Speaker 1: There was a period in time for one particular person

1089
01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 1: where you were had to move out of your home

1090
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:18,640
Speaker 1: and put in a secure location because of the threats

1091
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:21,680
Speaker 1: made against you. So whole range of things to talk about.

1092
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:24,440
Speaker 2: Have we only got another How are we going to

1093
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:25,240
Speaker 2: possibly do that?

1094
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:29,960
Speaker 1: We could extend it. I'm sure we we'll manage our best.

1095
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:33,120
Speaker 1: I'm sure we'll come and go Okay, great, Thanks, cheers,