WEBVTT - Mahmood Fazal on Constructing a Life After Crime 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:03.400 We'd like to acknowledge that traditional custodians of the land 0:00:03.520 --> 0:00:06.840 on which this podcast was produced, the Gellighl people of 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:10.440 the urination. We pay our respects to Elder's past and present. 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:16.280 It's the late nineties and Mahmud Fazao is growing up 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:20.680 in the southeastern suburbs of Melbourne. His parents settled here 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:23.960 after fleeing the Soviet War in Afghanistan, and for my 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:28.840 Mood is a calm and loving childhood. Weekends are spent 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:32.040 with Dad at work in the dandinglong markets, and at 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:35.839 home his mum cooks delicious delicacies to keep the memories 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:40.520 of their homeland alive. They're a loving family and life 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:41.920 in Australia is good. 0:00:42.800 --> 0:00:46.279 That is until two thousand and one, when. 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:49.400 Everything changes, not just for Ma Mood but for all 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:55.320 Afghans all around the world. Until now, no one knew 0:00:55.400 --> 0:01:00.400 much about their homeland. Now it's a country everyone is 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:04.319 aware of. Mamood is just starting high school and kids 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:07.080 are crueled in a country he once felt at home. 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:11.760 He is completely outed nine eleven, shakes his sense of 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:16.720 belonging and changes life in Australia forever. This lack of 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:19.760 belonging the feeling of being an outsider will lead him 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:24.600 to become deeply embedded in one of Australia's most violent gangs. 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:29.800 I'm Att Middleton and this is head Game Today. How 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:33.319 Mahmoud Fazzau became a sergeant at arms for the Mongol's 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:37.800 Bikey Gang and the lessons in resilience, reinvention and redemption. 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:46.399 Mahmood Fuzz, thank you so much for coming on my 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:48.200 podcast head Game Now. 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:52.640 You've got quite a fascinating story. Where were you born? Mahmoud? 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:56.720 I was born here in Melbourne in the southeast in 0:01:56.840 --> 0:02:01.840 nineteen ninety. So my parents moved here from Afghanistan. They've 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:07.760 fled the Soviet invasion and my father's uncle sponsored him 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:13.800 to come over here roughly around eighty eight. And yeah, 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:17.160 two years later I arrived him. 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:20.800 Two years later you were born, Mamood? And what was 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:22.480 your household? 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:22.760 Like? 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:24.120 What was it was it? 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:26.720 Was it quite Australian or were you still quite traditional 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:33.079 with your afghan roots and the ways of the Middle East? 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:33.600 Shall we say? 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:38.120 Yeah, Well, my parents were definitely still trying to figure 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:41.880 out this land in which they had arrived and they 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:45.040 you know, they spoke Pashto at home. I grew up 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:49.639 in an Afghan household that was very much time locked 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:56.800 to pre Soviet invasion Afghanistan, which was quite you know, 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:00.639 unique in that it was conservative, but there were progressive 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:03.040 elements of the country as well. You know, women were 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:07.079 going to university that was American records you could readily access. 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:09.760 There was a big music culture and a big poetry culture. 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:12.560 So I grew up in a household that very much 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:18.320 celebrated that kind of Afghan heritage, and Pascheda was my 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:22.960 first language. But otherwise I was very much encouraged to 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:27.400 be an Australian. You know, my parents were barracked for 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:29.800 the Australian cricket team. You know, we were very much 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:37.080 part of this culture and very much my parents encouraged 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:39.360 me to be as Australian as I could be, and 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:43.800 I was welcomed at school, in primary school and in 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:49.480 my community as an Australian for well until nine to 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:50.360 eleven pretty much. 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:54.480 So did you see yourself as Australian or did you 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:56.480 see yourself as Afghani? 0:03:57.200 --> 0:03:59.480 There wasn't really a confusion. I think I merged the 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:02.440 two to yeah, and I very much felt Australian and 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:06.680 Afghan at the same time. And at school, I remember, 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:10.920 you know, kids being kind of fascinated by this exotic, 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:13.480 kind of strange place that no one had heard of 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:18.080 back then, particularly in suburban, working class suburban Melbourne. This 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:20.280 place Afghanistan. It was just kind of like a tongue 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:23.320 twister that they would you know, joke about in the 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:25.839 school yard, but no one actually knew where this strange 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:30.520 place was. And yeah, I mean I never felt like 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:33.440 an outsider really. I was definitely one of the boys 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:37.640 on the school yard. And yeah, very much part of 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:40.880 the community and very much an Australian. I didn't really 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:46.040 know what it meant to be an Afghan outside of 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:50.360 my home. You know, there wasn't much of an Afghan 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:54.800 community back then either, so my experience of Afghanistan was 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:58.280 very limited to my specific household. I think back then 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:01.479 our community was only like a hundred people in the 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:03.680 whole of Victoria, so and there were a lot of 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:04.799 my family members. 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:08.599 So primary school, you mentioned primary school, was that quite 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:12.080 a comfortable living, quite a good way of living. You 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:15.240 were very sort of integrated, You loved it, and you 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:21.479 mentioned there that things changed after obviously nine eleven, huge 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:24.200 event global event that happened, but just taught me prior 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:26.359 prior to that, were you a fun loving kid and 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:28.880 just happy, go lucky and loving life. 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:31.200 I was very much happy you got lucky. You know. 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:34.160 I listened to powder Finger, I did all the things 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:37.880 young Australian kids did. I was probably edging on being 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:40.400 like a Bogain like I was, you know, I was 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:46.320 into VLS. I was just yeah, I played cricket, wanted 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:49.680 to be like Brettley, you know all that stuff. And 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:55.479 then yeah, around grade five, things started shifting. You know. 0:05:55.520 --> 0:06:00.560 I had a bit of a kind of a traumatic 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:05.560 event that happened in grade five, and then the following 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:08.760 year was nine to eleven, when I was in grade six, 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:13.359 and there was this real shift where I felt like 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:17.000 I was this part of the community, but from a 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:19.839 strange land, but I wasn't one of the boys. To 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:24.599 suddenly everyone feeling as though they actually knew the real me, 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:28.640 you know, they began to understand what Afghanistan was, and 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:33.000 who the people from Afghanistan were and what they represented 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:37.440 and what they really wanted to do to the West. Well, 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:39.200 that was how I felt, you know, I felt like 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:43.320 I'd kind of been stained with this brush that, you know, 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:45.919 the media kind of propelled. 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:47.760 Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. So it 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.200 was a knock on of effects really from grade five 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:56.400 and then grade six, nine eleven happens. 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:58.119 Do you remember that day? 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:02.400 I remember the morning quite vividly, like seeing my father 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:06.440 on the couch kind of watching the planes flying over 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:11.840 and over again, juxtaposed with these images of bearded men 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:14.720 in these caves and then the mountains of Afghanistan, like 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:18.760 just over and and over again, and my dad kind 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:21.760 of seemed worried. I think it was one of the 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:24.840 only times i'd really seen my dad kind of concerned 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:27.800 and worried, which was odd. I knew something weird was 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:30.920 going on. And then I remember being at school and 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:36.560 it was this kind of strange panic. Even in the classroom. 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:40.240 Everyone seemed confused, and we're talking about it. And we 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:42.200 were like eleven years old, you know, so it's kind 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:45.400 of weird. But people, the teachers were obviously concerned and 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:47.720 the kids were talking about it, and I remember one 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:50.360 of the girls looking over at me and saying, isn't 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:55.680 that where you're from? And said, yeah, you know, And 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:59.320 it was this really profound moment where I suddenly realized 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:04.840 that I wasn't part of the group. I might be, 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:08.160 I might belong to something else, and I kind of 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:12.119 had to understand that and learn about that and reckon 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:13.080 with what that meant. 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:19.520 So when when that happened, did you no longer sort 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:24.240 of see yourself as Australian? Did it flip straight over 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:27.000 to right? People are looking at me now, looking at 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:31.000 my home country. This event has just happened. Did you 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:35.680 sort of go back into your Afghanistan heritage because obviously 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:39.440 you were pushed into that way, or was it a 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:42.200 conscious decision of you know, wow, this is happening in 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:42.840 my homeland. 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:49.480 Well, the following year nine to eleven happened towards in September, obviously, 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:51.040 and then the following year was my first year of 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:54.640 high school. So there's already all this this flood of 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:58.120 emotions and you're trying to reckon with all of that stuff, 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:00.360 and suddenly you go from being the oldest kids yard 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:03.440 to the youngest kid in the school yard. Yeah, and 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:05.520 there was this odd thing where all these people that 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:08.640 you grew up with, that you had relationships with, suddenly 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:10.560 didn't want to hang out with you and associate with you. 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:14.160 In the high school yard, and so you gravitate towards 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:17.080 the handful of other kids that kind of get you. 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:18.680 And I was lucky enough. I had a couple of 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:22.120 cousins at the school that I went to, and we 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:25.040 just kind of clicked together. And I was like, did you. 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:26.400 Feel like that you had to click together? 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:28.280 Did you feel like that you were pushed towards that 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:33.640 and you naturally gravitated towards that because of the situation. 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:37.679 I think it was obvious that we felt excluded. 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:38.960 And it was an obvious exclusion. 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:42.800 Yeah, and there was you know, a lot of school 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:46.679 yard jokes around, you know, terrorists and you know, and 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:49.360 when you're young and your naive, you kind of play 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:51.840 along with all that stuff because you want to be accepted, 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:55.520 you know. And so but then you know, there was 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:59.200 a few very stern conversations you know, I had with 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:01.199 my cousins. Wo, we decide we're not going to cop 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:05.200 it anymore. And yeah, like I said, there was maybe 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:08.040 four or five of us. Even some of the Arabs 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:11.040 that were hanging out with us. They were like Christian 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:13.880 Palestinian kids, like they were Christians, but they still got 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:14.880 you know. 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:17.360 Yeah, they still got excluded too of it. 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:19.840 Yeah, yeah, yeah, they were still seen as kind of 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:24.920 these terrorists Middle Eastern kids, these terrorist Arabs. So yeah, 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:27.240 it wasn't just us, but there was maybe maybe five 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:31.920 or six of us. They just stuck together. And very early, 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:36.000 maybe halfway through that first year, one of my cousins 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:37.679 was at the school. She used to wear a hijab 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:41.120 and she got like, I remember, she got like an 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:45.320 orange pegged at her head, you know, and the white hijab, 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:48.440 you know, there was just bits of orange all over it. 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:52.200 And it was a kind of breaking point where my cousin. 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:54.640 My cousin was a lot more aggressive than I was, 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:58.880 and he said, you know, I'm not copping that anymore. 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:01.200 And this was a much older kid too that did it. 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:05.080 It was in year lefton or something, year twelve, and yeah, 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:07.319 it was we went to his locker bain and we. 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:11.520 Just pushed a breaking point really yeah. 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:15.000 Yeah, and pretty much pretty much, I mean, we knew 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:16.960 that if we don't do anything, we're just going to 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:19.679 keep copying this for the next for the rest of 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:23.640 our lives in high school. Yeah yeah. And so then 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:29.640 when we did that, people started respecting us. It really 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:32.920 confused us because we used violence in a very aggressive 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:37.400 way and we got respect for it and people didn't 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:41.000 fuck with us. And so in our very young minds, 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:44.040 we thought, well that's the answer, you know, and then it. 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:47.160 Works, right, It's like it works, we get in respect. 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:50.520 Was our mindset shift there as well, Manmoud? Was there 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:55.520 mindset shift of actually, you know you've pushed me out, 0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:58.640 you know, fuck you lot, We're going to stick together. 0:11:58.960 --> 0:11:59.959 It's us again. 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:03.760 Was it divisive like that or was it just a case, Yeah, 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:07.280 it was make you feel angry. 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:10.560 Yeah, we were very angry, very We felt betrayed by 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:12.640 the people that we loved, you know, in the community 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:17.400 that we love that estranged us, and so we suddenly 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:21.280 I remember borrowing books about Afghanistan from the school library, 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:24.440 like literally having to learn because my parents were like 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:26.120 my dad was kind of a literally never went to 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:28.760 school and stuff, so we couldn't like mind him for 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:31.120 the history of our country. Everything he knew was kind 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:33.640 of third or fourth hand, and so I just remember 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:36.720 like literally trying to learn about who I was in 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:41.680 these strange texts at the school library and suddenly having 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:43.679 to face the fact that, you know, I'm never going 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:46.080 to be seen as an AUSSI. None of these kids 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:48.679 will ever believe that I'm an Aussi. So I've got 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:50.679 to actually figure out who the fuck I am in 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:52.679 this in this strange environment. 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:55.360 Did you try and say I was born here, I'm 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:57.199 just as Australian as you are. 0:12:57.280 --> 0:12:59.360 And was there was there a fight with that? 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:02.920 Did you use the will to fight that fight or 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:05.520 was it just a case of the segregation was too 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:08.920 obviously divided. You stick to your group, their stick to 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:11.880 their group, and we need to just to stick together. 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:15.160 I think everyone's mind at that point was already made 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:17.240 up that, you know, it really is a war of 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:20.199 us against them, the West, against these people in the 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:23.439 Middle East. And if you know, you believe in any 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:25.920 of things that these people in the Middle East believe, 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:29.000 you're not part of us. And we were Muslims, you know, 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:33.200 so it was we very much believed that, you know, 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:37.040 we probably are not part of this group anymore. And 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:40.760 so it was very confusing, and we definitely had to 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:47.079 basically seek out a new identity or constructing new identity, 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:51.880 and it was very much, you know, it was very 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:57.000 disorientating that it was Also the main problem was that 0:13:57.040 --> 0:14:02.160 we began to use violence that got results, and then 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:07.040 that kind of intoxicated us further. And yeah, it was 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:09.280 all It was just a kind of slippery slope that 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:12.720 made us make a lot of bad decisions. 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:15.920 And what path of destruction if it was a path 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:18.600 of destruction or violence, did that lead you down? From 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:19.960 that moment onwards. 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:23.880 Well, we kind of shifted into like we in the beginning, 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:27.560 it was like reactionary. You know, we thought, you know, 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:29.760 these people are going to be picking on us, so 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:32.720 we're going to get them back. But then we just started, 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:35.120 you know, we thought, well, actually, let's addressed upon him 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:40.160 before it starts, and just started you know, almost like 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:42.880 terrorizing the other kids in the on the school yard, 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:49.600 you know, and just being really awful people. But it 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:53.160 was a it protected us, and it was a very 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:56.880 early lesson in that, you know, I began to learn 0:14:56.920 --> 0:15:01.360 that sometimes the most aggressive and violent and unpredictable people 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:05.080 are often the most scared and the most vulnerable, and 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:09.640 that's why they lash out the way they do. And 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:13.200 so yeah, but that's what happened. And then we started, 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:15.760 you know, meeting other kids from other neighborhoods that were 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:18.120 the same as us, and then we just started hustling 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:22.760 and you know, yeah, getting up to no good and 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:26.840 clicking up with other kids who also viewed themselves as 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:29.920 outsiders and were forming little groups. And then we'd all 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:33.000 hang out after school and you know, it kind of 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:37.000 erupted out of the school environment onto the streets, and 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:39.880 you know, that's that's how it happens when you're young. 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:41.920 You know, you're just you're not going to go to school. 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:45.520 You don't feel like the system is playing in your favor, 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:47.520 and so you're going to do what all the other 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:49.760 kids on the street are doing, who also feel rejected 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:53.160 and neglected by that system. So you start, you start, 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:54.760 you know, falling off. 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:59.760 And did you start to sort of completely push away 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:01.800 your Australian identity. 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:05.280 Yeah, I just I was just angry. I was just 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:08.880 like angry at it because I was like, you know, overnight, 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:13.240 you know, you feel like you've part, you've done, You've 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:17.200 made all the sacrifices to assimilate and to integrate into 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:19.920 this culture for all to be thrown away at the 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:22.800 drop of the hat. You know, I was just furious. 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:27.920 And then there was this kind of campaign in the media, 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:30.760 well what felt like to us as a campaign where 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:33.560 there's all these stories on the front page of the 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:39.320 tabloid press about you know, young, violent, many most of 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:43.040 the time Muslim men, and it constructed this kind of 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:48.280 image in the zeitgeist about who we were and what 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:50.960 we represented. So you had the you know, you had 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:56.480 the the scaff rape trials. You know, you had you know, 0:16:56.520 --> 0:17:00.600 the boat, the people smugglers, you had the Cronulla, you 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:04.160 had the Iraq War. You know, you had these guys, 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:06.920 the Taliban, you had Isis. You had all of these 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:12.080 images that weren't There was nothing to There was no 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:16.119 other media representation that kind of balanced the books. Really, 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:18.920 you know that the only time you saw young Middle 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:22.000 Eastern men on screen, they were up to no good, 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:22.800 you know, and. 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:25.720 Of course I don't know favors. And also you you 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:27.600 sort of play up to that, don't you, Especially when 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:31.040 you're young and you're naive and and you said it's 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:33.760 spilled out onto the streets. How what do you mean 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:35.840 when you say it's spilt out onto the streets? 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:38.000 Yeah, I mean, like back then, when you're young and 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:40.359 you're just like drinking with your maids and smoking with 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:43.120 your mates after school, you don't really you don't sit 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:45.600 down together and call yourselves a gang and like start 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:48.720 you know, like making t shirts and stuff. You just 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:53.119 hanging around. But back then it was all like it 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:56.560 revolved around your Neighborhood's kind of like there's a whole 0:17:56.560 --> 0:17:59.840 postcode thing now. Back back in suburban Melbourne, it was 0:17:59.840 --> 0:18:02.800 all it all gravitated around like train stations, because kids 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:04.879 would hang out at train stations and they could they 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:08.320 could be mobile or through train stations and go different ways. 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:11.359 So each train station kind of had its own little 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:13.399 crew of people. It was. 0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:16.760 Yeah, because it's postcodes now, isn't it. So yeah, that's interesting. 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:20.600 And so people would like if you had drama with 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:24.639 someone else and he you always had drama with someone 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:26.600 from a different kind of train station, and you get 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:28.520 on the trains and run to the go go through 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:31.560 their train station and they do the same. So that's 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:34.280 that's kind of what the culture was like in Melbourne. 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:36.560 And they were like, you know, kids started going a 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:39.280 juvie and kids are getting stabbed all of a sudden, 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:42.280 and then you know, people are moving pills and people 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:45.080 were smoking weed and selling weed. And then there's like 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:47.320 the older you start hearing about the older boys and 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:50.480 then they become like these mythic kind of war heroes 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:55.359 that have you know, dunstints in jail, they're driving you know, amgs. 0:18:56.720 --> 0:18:58.320 And that's when it really glorified. 0:18:58.359 --> 0:18:59.639 Everything's glorified, isn't it. 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:02.440 And like you say, you almost want to uphold that reputation, 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:06.200 you know, and and do do you know your your team? 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:06.600 Proud? 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:07.280 Shall we see? 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:09.680 Yeah? But it's also it goes back to this other 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:13.440 thing where there were no other positive role models back 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:16.439 then to counterbalance that. So in the neighborhoods that we 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:19.600 were kicking it at, the only people who looked like 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:23.040 they had money and were successful were drug dealers. That's 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:25.719 all there was, Like they were everybody knew they were 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:27.720 drug dealers. They might have had a panel beating shop, 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:30.200 they might have had a little, you know, a little 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:33.639 side trust somewhere yeah, yeah, little you know, a pizza 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:35.679 shop where they would wash their money, but they were 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:37.760 all drug dealers. And so when you grew up in 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:41.400 an environment like that, you think, well, the only way 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:44.240 out for me is to do what these guys are doing, 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:45.040 and so. 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:48.480 Make my money, yeah, and then yeah, away we go. 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:51.240 Yeah. And so my parents, my parents could seem that 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:54.960 I was really you know, falling off the track here 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:57.240 and I'm getting up to no good and you know, 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:00.560 I got got arrested a couple of times, and you know, 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:03.760 my parents finding weapons on me and weapons in my 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:06.439 room and stuff like that, and they knew that it 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:10.080 was it was getting really wild, so they they sent 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:12.000 me off to like a posh school. 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:14.320 You know, when did you know that it was getting 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:15.040 really wild? 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:18.480 I didn't really have that moment. I can see it 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:20.920 in hindsight, but at the time, it wasn't like this 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:25.080 awakening inside me that motivated me and inspired me to 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:29.040 do better. It wasn't. But yeah, one of my best 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:37.200 friends there was like, what these kinds of career they're 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:39.639 kind of like these big events where all these different 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:42.600 high schools go to and they put the universities present 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:46.159 like career prospects and they kind of yeah, yeah, like 0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:50.320 career opportunities and like pathways to different universities and stuff 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:53.040 like that. And one of my best mates got into 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:57.720 it with guys from a different area and ended up, 0:20:58.000 --> 0:20:59.879 you know, stabbing up a couple of people at this 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:04.240 kind of high school event thing, and he got locked 0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:07.800 up and went away for a couple of years. So 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:09.919 that was that was one of the real kind of 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:14.200 pivotal moments in my childhood where I thought, oh, it's 0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:17.080 getting you know, pretty serious, like he could have killed 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:21.200 those kids or whatever. And ironically the kids he stabbed 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:24.800 were Afghans, so they were Hazara kids who had just 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:27.200 come in the second wave. So there was another wave 0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:31.679 of Afghans in Melbourne that came after the invasion. So 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:36.240 but yeah, and so my parents wanted to get me 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:38.680 away from the environment that I was in, and they 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:41.159 did that by putting me in school and suddenly I 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:43.679 lost contact with and my mate went to jail and 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:48.919 Julie and so suddenly I was kind of in this 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:52.440 new environment and yeah, wow. 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:57.399 And so your parents are seeing this, this fall of grace, 0:21:57.840 --> 0:22:00.560 shall we say, are they? 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:03.320 Are they super concerned for you? Do they pull you 0:22:03.359 --> 0:22:04.280 aside at any point? 0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:07.720 And is there a moment where you know they pull 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:09.639 you to one side and says this has to stop? 0:22:09.760 --> 0:22:12.320 You have to oh yeah, many times, many times, but 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:16.800 you kind of don't. It's hard to explain because you 0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:19.480 know that there's that duality, like you mentioned that there's 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:21.119 the person you are at home and then there's a 0:22:21.160 --> 0:22:23.400 person you are outside, and you feel like they're two 0:22:23.440 --> 0:22:26.720 dope split personalities, like they're two different people. And when 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:28.440 they start pulling you up on who you are on 0:22:28.480 --> 0:22:32.000 the outside, you kind of get mad at them because 0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:33.359 you're like, you don't know what it's like for me, 0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:35.639 in a very fucking teenage angsty way, you know, like 0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:36.959 you don't know what it's like for them. But they 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:40.960 really didn't. They really believed in the Australian dream that 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:43.880 you know, this is a meritocracy and you know it's 0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:47.800 not you're fucking up is you know, it's because you're 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:50.280 fucking up. You know, you've got every opportunity here. They 0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:55.199 came from Candahart and the farms in rural Candahar, you 0:22:55.200 --> 0:22:57.000 know what I mean. They thought, you know, we've got 0:22:57.000 --> 0:22:59.439 every opportunity here, why are you throwing it away? And 0:22:59.440 --> 0:23:03.680 there was all this kind of complex socio political stuff 0:23:03.800 --> 0:23:08.240 swirling around us that they couldn't comprehend, and neither could we. 0:23:08.440 --> 0:23:12.040 But yeah, I think we knew that they couldn't understand 0:23:12.040 --> 0:23:14.920 something that was happening to us, and so every time 0:23:14.960 --> 0:23:17.000 they pulled us up where it was just like, you know, 0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:17.840 I fucking get it. 0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:29.160 Eventually, Were you part of a biker gain as well. 0:23:30.160 --> 0:23:32.040 Yeah, so that happened af So I went to school, 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:34.399 and when I went to that posh school, I went 0:23:34.440 --> 0:23:37.359 to art school. I really was inspired to read. I 0:23:37.400 --> 0:23:41.760 had a few very influential teachers at that school that 0:23:41.960 --> 0:23:49.040 really inspired me to find h reconfigure this my moral 0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:54.480 compass through actually reading. And I became quite a voracious 0:23:54.520 --> 0:23:59.040 and obsessive reader. And then I went to art school, 0:24:00.040 --> 0:24:01.840 got out of Art school and couldn't get a job 0:24:01.880 --> 0:24:05.160 and stuff, and then I found myself back at square one. 0:24:05.200 --> 0:24:07.840 So I was waxing with those same kids that I 0:24:07.880 --> 0:24:12.400 grew up with, and one thing led to another, except 0:24:12.760 --> 0:24:15.800 that they hadn't had that moment where they they left 0:24:15.800 --> 0:24:18.239 and came back. They had just graduated on and on 0:24:18.280 --> 0:24:20.920 to bigger and bigger things on the streets. And so 0:24:21.000 --> 0:24:24.919 by the time I linked up with them after art school, 0:24:24.960 --> 0:24:29.000 they were all already kind of making big moves in 0:24:29.040 --> 0:24:31.960 the suburbs. And you know, they had big runs, and 0:24:32.040 --> 0:24:34.720 you know they were pretty serious serious. 0:24:34.760 --> 0:24:37.359 And when you say making big moves, obviously there's a 0:24:37.560 --> 0:24:41.960 there's a ranking system within these organizations where they making 0:24:42.000 --> 0:24:43.840 their way up the ranks, are earning more money. 0:24:44.480 --> 0:24:46.399 Was that the case there and new thought, right. 0:24:48.400 --> 0:24:51.359 Job, they were just like looking out for me because 0:24:51.359 --> 0:24:52.840 they could see that I didn't have any money or 0:24:52.880 --> 0:24:54.960 anything like that, and I didn't have a job, and 0:24:55.119 --> 0:24:57.200 no one was hiring people that looked like us back 0:24:57.240 --> 0:25:01.680 then with names like ma Mud, and so they were 0:25:01.760 --> 0:25:04.320 just like chopping me in to what they were doing. 0:25:04.480 --> 0:25:09.919 And I guess I started helping them like I brought, 0:25:11.359 --> 0:25:14.480 you know, I kind of helped them strategize and helped 0:25:14.480 --> 0:25:18.120 them think of new ways of applying new new kind 0:25:18.119 --> 0:25:21.680 of business models or applying new kind of logistical strategies 0:25:21.840 --> 0:25:24.760 in what they were already doing, because I could offer 0:25:24.800 --> 0:25:30.159 them a fresh way of thinking about crime, organized crime. 0:25:31.400 --> 0:25:36.960 And I was very resourceful and so very quickly it 0:25:37.040 --> 0:25:41.760 was noticed by specific people back then, and I climbed 0:25:41.760 --> 0:25:46.359 the ranks very quickly. And then Yeah, there was a 0:25:46.440 --> 0:25:50.159 guy in prison who was kind of a father figure 0:25:50.320 --> 0:25:54.040 to the Muslims in jail, who was very influential, and 0:25:54.400 --> 0:25:58.480 he was being patched into an outlaw motorcycle club and 0:25:58.720 --> 0:26:00.880 I was part of a group of people that were 0:26:00.920 --> 0:26:03.760 representing him on the outside. And then we went to 0:26:03.800 --> 0:26:06.440 the outlaw motorcycle club and eventually became members. 0:26:07.240 --> 0:26:11.119 Wow, and this when you became members. Was it a 0:26:11.240 --> 0:26:16.240 mixture of all religions or was it just Muslims or 0:26:16.280 --> 0:26:17.200 how did that work? 0:26:17.800 --> 0:26:20.800 No, it was it was back then it was a 0:26:20.800 --> 0:26:24.080 club called the Pinx, but then it patched into another 0:26:24.359 --> 0:26:29.200 international motorcycle club called the Mongols well known. Yeah, but 0:26:29.880 --> 0:26:34.240 back it was it was outlaw. Motorcycle culture is unique 0:26:34.280 --> 0:26:37.439 and as you probably know, it was born out of 0:26:38.119 --> 0:26:41.679 returning Vietnam vets who felt ostracized by their communities, who 0:26:41.760 --> 0:26:47.520 bounded together and found that adrenaline rush or found that 0:26:47.600 --> 0:26:50.800 freedom and the place to express themselves in these kind 0:26:50.880 --> 0:26:56.240 of subcultures, and they formed these brotherhoods, you know, and 0:26:57.240 --> 0:26:59.600 they were all mixed, you know, they were they were 0:27:00.200 --> 0:27:04.000 people from different backgrounds that just felt like outsiders that boundery. 0:27:04.600 --> 0:27:07.879 Were literally blood related by colors, by the colors of 0:27:07.920 --> 0:27:10.439 their vests and by the patches that they were and 0:27:10.440 --> 0:27:14.359 it's kind of like you wear an oath to belong 0:27:14.440 --> 0:27:18.600 to each other. And so yeah, it was refreshing to 0:27:18.640 --> 0:27:21.560 see that these this is another group that is also 0:27:22.520 --> 0:27:27.080 that gets what's happened to us and understands and that 0:27:27.359 --> 0:27:30.840 they'll accept us because they are in the same vein 0:27:30.960 --> 0:27:34.320 of that you know, outside of culture or counterculture or whatever. 0:27:34.560 --> 0:27:39.159 And was there Australians in this bike organization. 0:27:39.880 --> 0:27:45.040 Yeah, yeah, definitely, probably a majority were Australians. I mean, 0:27:45.080 --> 0:27:49.840 the Phinx was a very kind of Anglo Australian club 0:27:49.880 --> 0:27:54.440 that originated in Adelaide. So yeah, there definitely was that 0:27:54.520 --> 0:27:59.240 the heritage of that old white, traditional, classic outlaw biker, 0:27:59.320 --> 0:28:03.840 big bearded kind of you know, tattered up a lot 0:28:03.880 --> 0:28:08.480 of Nazi kind of symbolism in the air. There was 0:28:08.520 --> 0:28:10.439 a lot of that stuff going on. But by the 0:28:10.480 --> 0:28:13.399 time we got involved, there was a shift in outlaw 0:28:13.480 --> 0:28:18.080 motorcycle culture in Australia where different clubs were vying for 0:28:18.200 --> 0:28:24.600 power by basically recruiting people who were influential on the streets. 0:28:25.320 --> 0:28:28.040 And the people at that time who were influential on 0:28:28.080 --> 0:28:31.280 the streets were all from different backgrounds, and majority of 0:28:31.280 --> 0:28:36.760 them Middle Easterners, mainly in Sydney and then in Melbourne. 0:28:36.800 --> 0:28:38.640 And I think a lot of that has got to 0:28:38.640 --> 0:28:40.640 do with a lot of these problems in which, you know, 0:28:40.720 --> 0:28:42.920 after nine to eleven and after all that stuff, the 0:28:43.040 --> 0:28:46.720 kids began running a MUK on the street. They some 0:28:46.760 --> 0:28:51.240 of them did very well and built really hectic reputations 0:28:51.280 --> 0:28:54.800 for themselves and then they got kind of drafted these 0:28:55.160 --> 0:28:55.960 by these clubs. 0:28:56.680 --> 0:29:00.960 Was what was you know, that bikey life, Like I. 0:29:00.920 --> 0:29:06.200 Mean it, it can be whatever you want to make it. 0:29:06.600 --> 0:29:11.000 You know, it is very much a club that is 0:29:11.080 --> 0:29:16.400 full of people who really die hard motorcycle enthusiasts that 0:29:16.520 --> 0:29:19.760 love the culture. And I'm just gonna disclaimer here is 0:29:19.800 --> 0:29:22.640 that you know, I'm talking about a club seven or 0:29:22.680 --> 0:29:27.000 eight years ago, you know, and I'm talking about a 0:29:27.120 --> 0:29:30.200 very specific chapter of a club that's not you know, 0:29:30.240 --> 0:29:32.760 I'm not I'm not saying like this is how every 0:29:32.760 --> 0:29:35.400 club in Australia works, and I don't know how clubs 0:29:35.400 --> 0:29:38.479 work now even so I'm just I'm just giving my 0:29:38.520 --> 0:29:44.160 own personal perspective from that time. Yeah, yeah, and so yeah, 0:29:44.480 --> 0:29:47.040 back then, there was people who loved who would die 0:29:47.040 --> 0:29:50.800 hard motorcycle and enthusiasts. There were people who are obviously traumatized, 0:29:50.920 --> 0:29:55.560 were people who felt lonely, and there were there was 0:29:56.040 --> 0:29:59.400 you know, drug dealers, there were thugs. There was a 0:29:59.400 --> 0:30:01.840 bit of everyone because it was a place that accepted 0:30:02.200 --> 0:30:03.960 you no matter what your background was. 0:30:04.560 --> 0:30:07.040 Outlaws, right, yeah, yeah, of course, it. 0:30:07.040 --> 0:30:10.160 Was just whatever corner of the world you came from. 0:30:10.440 --> 0:30:12.720 You could be accepted as long as you subscribe to 0:30:12.760 --> 0:30:16.760 this code and to this, to this brand or whatever. 0:30:17.840 --> 0:30:21.320 And so it wasn't like Sons of anarchy where people 0:30:21.360 --> 0:30:23.560 sit around at the table and you've got the fucking 0:30:23.640 --> 0:30:26.520 president talent everyone like, you've got to move these guns 0:30:26.560 --> 0:30:30.680 from Sydney to you know, the Northern territory and you know, 0:30:30.760 --> 0:30:33.280 what's the what are the Cinelons up to this weekend? 0:30:33.400 --> 0:30:36.360 And you know, like that, there's nothing that doesn't exist. 0:30:38.600 --> 0:30:41.240 I mean, I'm sure it does exist, but it doesn't 0:30:41.280 --> 0:30:44.240 exist in that way. Everything is very much on a 0:30:44.320 --> 0:30:46.160 need to know basis. And if you want to do 0:30:46.240 --> 0:30:49.800 something and there's people at that club that can assist 0:30:49.880 --> 0:30:52.240 you in doing so, you might get up to something 0:30:52.320 --> 0:30:55.360 like that, but there's no way the entire club would know, 0:30:56.120 --> 0:30:57.960 and it would be it'd kind of be the same 0:30:58.000 --> 0:31:01.720 way as if you were in a football club, you know, 0:31:02.080 --> 0:31:03.640 and you and you a couple of people at your 0:31:03.680 --> 0:31:06.680 footage club that you know, do a few things and 0:31:06.720 --> 0:31:10.480 you start connecting and connecting the dots, you know. The 0:31:10.560 --> 0:31:13.760 only difference is because you're in this environment that attracts 0:31:13.800 --> 0:31:16.920 people from all walks of life, their connections are far 0:31:17.000 --> 0:31:20.720 deeper and potentially wilder than you know, the boys you 0:31:20.760 --> 0:31:24.120 meet a footy club and so you can you potentially 0:31:24.840 --> 0:31:30.880 get up to a lot graver. Yeah, such deeper, deeper thing, 0:31:31.160 --> 0:31:31.880 yeah yeah yeah. 0:31:31.920 --> 0:31:34.800 And how desensitized at this stage in your life, so 0:31:35.000 --> 0:31:38.000 you know you've patched in, you live in that full 0:31:38.040 --> 0:31:42.680 outlaw life. How desensitized to violence and drugs and to 0:31:42.760 --> 0:31:45.640 the normal life are you? Yeah? 0:31:45.920 --> 0:31:51.640 I guess I think I don't actually know how you 0:31:52.200 --> 0:31:54.600 could be dissensitized advanced. I mean, you would probably be 0:31:54.640 --> 0:31:58.520 a better person to answer that question. I would. I mean, 0:31:58.560 --> 0:32:01.240 for me, every time I sawance, it was shocking. You know, 0:32:01.880 --> 0:32:05.480 I never got really used to it. And it's always 0:32:05.800 --> 0:32:08.600 you know, odd, and it's not as you would imagine 0:32:08.600 --> 0:32:11.520 it to be, and it unfolds in a very grotesque 0:32:11.600 --> 0:32:15.200 and crudal way. And it's always a little bit different, 0:32:15.320 --> 0:32:18.240 you know, like the way people fall, you know, the 0:32:18.280 --> 0:32:20.720 way people bleed out. Sometimes they don't bleed, you know, 0:32:22.080 --> 0:32:24.800 you know what knocks people out, the way they have 0:32:24.920 --> 0:32:27.600 fits on the ground, and some people, you know, just 0:32:27.640 --> 0:32:29.720 get back up and don't remember what they were doing. 0:32:29.800 --> 0:32:32.520 You know, it's always very odd, and. 0:32:32.840 --> 0:32:34.000 It's always different. Isn't it. 0:32:34.000 --> 0:32:36.240 It's like you said, you know, just how people feel, 0:32:36.240 --> 0:32:38.840 how people react, how people you know, it's not like 0:32:38.920 --> 0:32:39.800 it is in the movies. 0:32:40.200 --> 0:32:44.600 No, and the sounds are all it's very different. Yeah, yeah, 0:32:44.760 --> 0:32:47.080 because you're hardwired to think it's going to be like 0:32:47.120 --> 0:32:49.760 the movies. But then when you see it and you 0:32:49.800 --> 0:32:52.960 see how cold it is and the way that you know, 0:32:53.400 --> 0:32:58.920 when it happens, you expect something, someone to intervene or something, 0:32:58.960 --> 0:33:01.520 and then they don't, and it's suddenly like one of 0:33:01.560 --> 0:33:06.520 the craziest things. I remember hearing from someone who committed 0:33:07.360 --> 0:33:13.600 you know, being a prison for for for murder, and 0:33:13.640 --> 0:33:16.160 I remember hearing this thing that they said that the 0:33:16.240 --> 0:33:18.680 scariest thing was like they woke up the next day 0:33:18.760 --> 0:33:21.920 and they were the same person, you know, like they 0:33:21.920 --> 0:33:24.520 were just they were just doing the same shit, like 0:33:24.560 --> 0:33:26.800 they were just going to the coffee shop, and that 0:33:26.920 --> 0:33:30.560 was the like they even they expected for something to 0:33:30.640 --> 0:33:32.080 happen and it didn't. 0:33:40.800 --> 0:33:44.200 When did you think, you know, enough is enough? And 0:33:44.520 --> 0:33:45.360 how did that happen? 0:33:46.680 --> 0:33:50.760 For me? It was like a cumulative effect. And I 0:33:50.840 --> 0:33:55.160 will say, like again, just say that I know people 0:33:55.240 --> 0:33:57.120 might be listening to this and say, you know, Australia. 0:33:57.120 --> 0:33:59.240 It's not that, you know, it's not that dangerous, it's 0:33:59.280 --> 0:34:01.800 not that you know, scary. I mean, it's not Chicago, 0:34:01.880 --> 0:34:05.200 it's not Canada. But I think you have to really 0:34:05.240 --> 0:34:07.960 imagine crime around the world as a kind of Bell 0:34:08.040 --> 0:34:11.160 curve in different countries, and you know, at the top end, 0:34:12.200 --> 0:34:16.439 when you're at the deepest and at deepest levels, it's 0:34:16.480 --> 0:34:18.560 as bad as it is everywhere else in the world. 0:34:18.640 --> 0:34:20.960 If you fuck up, you're going to get shot, You're 0:34:21.000 --> 0:34:23.399 going to get killed. Like that's just the way it is. 0:34:23.480 --> 0:34:27.560 So over all remains the same, doesn't it. 0:34:28.000 --> 0:34:30.680 Yeah, that middle, of course, Melbourne is not a crazy 0:34:30.760 --> 0:34:33.440 violent place in that middle section of the Bell curve, 0:34:33.680 --> 0:34:36.799 but at the end it's the same everywhere else. It's 0:34:36.800 --> 0:34:39.360 the same as any other country. You rob the wrong person, 0:34:40.000 --> 0:34:42.480 one person gets paranoid thinking you're going to knock them, 0:34:42.800 --> 0:34:45.960 They're going to come after you, like, and there's you know, 0:34:46.280 --> 0:34:48.960 these people do not count to ten. It's you know, 0:34:49.200 --> 0:34:51.239 it's they're going to just they're going to do yeah. 0:34:51.520 --> 0:34:53.960 And so there was like a cumulative effect where in 0:34:54.000 --> 0:34:55.960 the space of maybe two or three years, it was 0:34:57.000 --> 0:35:03.040 probably five or six people that I knew intimately were killed, 0:35:04.040 --> 0:35:08.000 and you know, I couldn't handle that. I've met commandos 0:35:08.040 --> 0:35:10.640 and sas guys and stuff like that, and I mean 0:35:10.800 --> 0:35:13.920 they didn't even lose five of their mates in one 0:35:14.000 --> 0:35:15.759 or two years, like they lost a lot of mates. 0:35:15.800 --> 0:35:19.160 But it really messes with your head and you hit 0:35:19.239 --> 0:35:21.719 a point where you're like, you know, my one of 0:35:21.760 --> 0:35:25.839 my best friends was mishandling a firearm and you know 0:35:26.239 --> 0:35:30.880 he was you know, I was I had to bury him, 0:35:30.920 --> 0:35:34.439 you know, like he was. And then you're standing over 0:35:34.520 --> 0:35:38.360 this grave and you're you know, they're lowering the coffin 0:35:38.480 --> 0:35:40.799 and you're throwing doing it, and you're thinking, what the 0:35:40.840 --> 0:35:44.200 fuck is this about? What is this about? Like we're 0:35:44.200 --> 0:35:47.200 in our twenties, like, well, why have I been to 0:35:47.239 --> 0:35:50.279 so many of these funerals? Like what are we doing? 0:35:50.400 --> 0:35:54.200 And what is this thing that we're kind of enchanted by, 0:35:54.200 --> 0:35:58.239 a spellbound by or obsessed with and revealed itself to 0:35:58.239 --> 0:36:00.360 me that this is all just smoking mirror. It's like 0:36:00.400 --> 0:36:04.319 this code doesn't exist, like nobody actually believed Yeah, yeah, 0:36:04.400 --> 0:36:08.080 nobody believes in that shit, Like it's it's just the 0:36:08.160 --> 0:36:11.040 crash dummies that believe in it, Like the that there's 0:36:11.160 --> 0:36:14.319 honor among thieves that all this stuff, you know, never 0:36:14.400 --> 0:36:17.520 talk to police, you know, you do your time and 0:36:17.520 --> 0:36:19.399 all this stuff, and then they all you find out 0:36:19.440 --> 0:36:22.920 they're all talking to police. The people, they're all the 0:36:23.000 --> 0:36:26.080 people that are you know, chatting and saying I wouldn't 0:36:26.120 --> 0:36:28.759 cop that. I wouldn't you know, when when you've been 0:36:28.800 --> 0:36:31.480 slighted or someone's wrong, they're trying to motivate you and 0:36:31.960 --> 0:36:34.120 do something. They say I wouldn't cop that. Fucking course 0:36:34.160 --> 0:36:37.040 you would cop that. You cop whatever whatever you know 0:36:37.280 --> 0:36:39.319 we tell you to do, you'd cop that. And here 0:36:39.320 --> 0:36:42.000 you are telling this guy to do something, and then 0:36:42.040 --> 0:36:43.959 of course they do it and do ten years in jail. 0:36:44.000 --> 0:36:46.880 And that the book that was chirping away in his ears, 0:36:46.920 --> 0:36:48.520 not even there to visit him or put money in 0:36:48.560 --> 0:36:49.759 his bank account, you know what I mean. 0:36:49.880 --> 0:36:52.040 So it's like, get your head out your ass, you. 0:36:52.000 --> 0:36:55.000 Know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And so but that that 0:36:55.080 --> 0:36:59.120 really damaged me, and yeah, I had to I had 0:36:59.120 --> 0:37:01.920 to help it. It all kind of crashed on me, 0:37:02.080 --> 0:37:05.719 and I had this moment of realization where I was like, 0:37:05.800 --> 0:37:10.239 I actually don't Oh, it's anyone to do anything in 0:37:10.280 --> 0:37:12.160 this and I don't have to be part of this 0:37:12.239 --> 0:37:16.359 anymore that I don't, I can just stop. I don't 0:37:16.400 --> 0:37:18.960 have to be with these people. But I knew I 0:37:18.960 --> 0:37:22.080 had to make a radical move and actually cut contact. 0:37:22.200 --> 0:37:25.040 You can't be one foot in, like you have to 0:37:25.080 --> 0:37:29.080 be kind of one yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's either you're 0:37:29.120 --> 0:37:31.880 in or you're out. And it was really cold because 0:37:32.320 --> 0:37:34.000 there was a lot of people I loved in that 0:37:34.160 --> 0:37:36.719 in that world that I had to cut ties with. 0:37:38.760 --> 0:37:43.440 And even those people they're dead now, like do you 0:37:43.440 --> 0:37:45.920 know what I mean? Like, or they're doing really long 0:37:45.960 --> 0:37:46.960 bids in jail. 0:37:47.040 --> 0:37:48.879 And it's it's also one of those as well. It's 0:37:48.920 --> 0:37:53.040 not not just change that was that's needed. It's drastic change, 0:37:53.320 --> 0:37:55.279 you know, in a situation like that, it's got to 0:37:55.360 --> 0:37:57.919 be drastic. And when I mean drastic to the point 0:37:57.960 --> 0:38:02.320 of maybe moving location off to everyone that's in that 0:38:02.480 --> 0:38:04.920 organization or that that's around, even if you love them 0:38:04.920 --> 0:38:07.239 and if you're great friends with them, it's like, no, 0:38:07.600 --> 0:38:10.479 drastic change needs to happen in order for something good 0:38:10.520 --> 0:38:11.080 to come of it. 0:38:11.880 --> 0:38:13.919 I got to the point where I was like, would 0:38:14.000 --> 0:38:16.840 you be happy being that young boy on that school 0:38:16.880 --> 0:38:19.560 yard being bullied, having oranges thrown at your head? Or whatever. 0:38:20.280 --> 0:38:22.200 Fucking ies. I'd rather be that boy than do this 0:38:22.239 --> 0:38:24.480 shit and you know, drag my mates through hell. 0:38:24.360 --> 0:38:27.520 And there's the Australian Yeah. 0:38:27.360 --> 0:38:31.480 Yeah, yeah, do you know what I mean? Like like 0:38:32.000 --> 0:38:34.680 I would rather be that that kid than you know, 0:38:36.000 --> 0:38:38.960 create these kind of cycles of destruction and you know, 0:38:39.280 --> 0:38:42.520 recidivism and like just dragging all my people, because it's 0:38:42.520 --> 0:38:44.440 my people that go down with me. It's not just me, 0:38:44.719 --> 0:38:48.000 Like I'm dragging my cousins in. I'll drag Like if 0:38:48.000 --> 0:38:49.920 someone's got a drum with me, they've got to go 0:38:49.920 --> 0:38:52.160 to my family's house. They're going to do this, do 0:38:52.200 --> 0:38:55.719 you know what I mean? Like it's I had to 0:38:55.719 --> 0:38:58.640 shoulder that and it was already too late, Like I 0:38:58.680 --> 0:39:00.560 came to that realization too late. 0:39:01.680 --> 0:39:04.919 And so you make this drategic change and it's quite 0:39:05.000 --> 0:39:05.759 the segue. 0:39:06.200 --> 0:39:07.000 How did that feel? 0:39:08.160 --> 0:39:11.400 Yeah? Well, initially I wanted to I studied psychology and 0:39:11.480 --> 0:39:14.360 wanted to literally work as kind of a counselor and 0:39:14.600 --> 0:39:19.600 in prisons and to try and actually help rehabilitate people 0:39:19.960 --> 0:39:22.160 so that they don't go back to that life when 0:39:22.200 --> 0:39:24.520 they leave, because the receiptivism rates are so high, and 0:39:24.560 --> 0:39:28.239 I thought that would be something purposeful that I could 0:39:28.280 --> 0:39:31.319 actually commit my life to. But then I got I 0:39:31.440 --> 0:39:36.320 met a bunch of editors and stuff through this friend 0:39:36.360 --> 0:39:39.719 of mine, and I began writing and got into journalism, 0:39:39.760 --> 0:39:42.360 and I actually thought, well, actually, no, it's about presenting 0:39:42.560 --> 0:39:45.840 this world for what it is, bare knuckles, and telling 0:39:45.880 --> 0:39:49.160 these young kids that it's not. It's not what's in 0:39:49.200 --> 0:39:51.960 the music videos and if your favorite app music video, 0:39:52.040 --> 0:39:55.319 it's not. You know, they're giving you, you know, they're 0:39:55.360 --> 0:39:59.040 giving you the shallow venier of the kind of porcelain 0:39:59.120 --> 0:40:01.960 veneer of what this lifestyle actually does. It actually just 0:40:02.120 --> 0:40:04.319 you know, people robbing, Yeah, your mates robbing, Yeah, your 0:40:04.360 --> 0:40:08.520 mates tell them ONNYA. You know, you can't trust anyone. 0:40:08.760 --> 0:40:10.920 People are going to get Yeah, you're going to get bashed, 0:40:10.920 --> 0:40:15.040 You're going to get shot, you know, and you're on 0:40:15.080 --> 0:40:17.799 your own. So you're better off on your own just 0:40:17.920 --> 0:40:21.879 actually partaking your life and contributing to society rather than 0:40:22.400 --> 0:40:25.279 being another statistic which is a cliche. But you know, 0:40:25.320 --> 0:40:28.279 if you want, if it's a double sided coin and 0:40:28.360 --> 0:40:31.320 the option is you know, being in the streets forever 0:40:31.600 --> 0:40:33.400 or choosing life. I know what I'm going to be 0:40:33.400 --> 0:40:35.640 doing on choosing life. 0:40:35.440 --> 0:40:39.200 Every single time now that you're you do all this, 0:40:39.800 --> 0:40:45.200 how interesting is it to be an investigated journalist? And 0:40:45.280 --> 0:40:48.080 if anyone can tell that story and get in and 0:40:48.120 --> 0:40:52.279 show people, actually, this is how bad it is and 0:40:52.560 --> 0:40:54.680 you know, do not get involved, it's you. 0:40:55.760 --> 0:40:57.880 Well, it was two things. It was that, but it 0:40:57.960 --> 0:41:01.920 was also about showing the public that these people that 0:41:01.960 --> 0:41:06.680 you're reading about are not just you know, they're not 0:41:06.800 --> 0:41:08.480 just the criminals that they made out to be. That 0:41:08.520 --> 0:41:11.239 actually they've lived whole lives and there's a lot of 0:41:11.239 --> 0:41:15.040 decisions that led up to that they made throughout their life, 0:41:15.040 --> 0:41:17.480 and a lot of kind of social fractures around them 0:41:17.520 --> 0:41:19.640 that led to their decision making that made them commit 0:41:19.680 --> 0:41:22.799 the crime. Like, my whole thing was don't understand and 0:41:22.840 --> 0:41:27.360 trying to illustrate the criminal by the crime that they've committed. 0:41:27.440 --> 0:41:30.239 Try to understand them for everything that they've done up 0:41:30.280 --> 0:41:32.360 until the point that's led them to the crime. And 0:41:32.800 --> 0:41:39.919 it was really about empathizing with people, not sanitizing what 0:41:39.920 --> 0:41:44.920 they've done. And so I felt like again like I 0:41:45.000 --> 0:41:48.200 go back to like media representation in the way that 0:41:48.440 --> 0:41:52.719 people are perceived. I think what I really wanted to 0:41:52.719 --> 0:41:56.120 do was I felt like journal crime reporters had been 0:41:56.160 --> 0:41:59.920 captured by police narratives because they were relying on police 0:42:00.040 --> 0:42:02.640 because criminals wouldn't talk to them. And the one thing 0:42:02.640 --> 0:42:06.200 that I could do was actually get some criminals to 0:42:06.680 --> 0:42:09.560 talk and actually explain the rationale and that things are 0:42:09.560 --> 0:42:13.360 a lot more complex than they're they're they're let to believe. 0:42:13.520 --> 0:42:14.880 And so yeah, that's. 0:42:14.760 --> 0:42:15.480 What it is as well. 0:42:15.520 --> 0:42:18.399 The things are a lot more complex than than what 0:42:18.480 --> 0:42:21.160 the media portray and what the you know, the media 0:42:21.239 --> 0:42:21.919 put out there. 0:42:22.080 --> 0:42:25.040 Well, you wouldn't know this firsthand. You know, you experienced 0:42:25.040 --> 0:42:28.359 them and like you there you had, you had all 0:42:28.360 --> 0:42:32.480 those reports written about you, and you didn't have an 0:42:32.560 --> 0:42:36.520 opportunity or you do have an opportunity now, but think about. 0:42:36.280 --> 0:42:41.040 All, do you, because well you do, But you know 0:42:41.480 --> 0:42:45.000 it's only because I'm persistent, like yourself, really, you know, 0:42:45.360 --> 0:42:49.160 getting getting the message out there and educating people in 0:42:49.200 --> 0:42:49.600 that way. 0:42:50.160 --> 0:42:51.600 But it's hard. 0:42:52.080 --> 0:42:54.720 It's hard to you know, once once the media portray 0:42:54.800 --> 0:42:57.439 you a certain way or you know, like you said, 0:42:57.480 --> 0:43:01.680 the complexity of what actually happens underneath, people swallow that 0:43:01.800 --> 0:43:04.400 stuff up, don't they. They go, well, they brand you 0:43:04.480 --> 0:43:06.080 with it, and like you said, they tire you with 0:43:06.120 --> 0:43:08.880 that brush and all of a sudden, and sometimes I'm 0:43:09.600 --> 0:43:11.719 similar Sometimes I think, but I might as well just 0:43:11.760 --> 0:43:14.480 be that person, even though I'm not that person exactly, 0:43:14.760 --> 0:43:15.120 I might. 0:43:15.000 --> 0:43:15.759 As well just be it. 0:43:16.520 --> 0:43:19.640 But again, that's why it's dangerous. That's why that reporting 0:43:19.719 --> 0:43:23.480 is dangerous. It's not it's not actually just the theory, 0:43:23.600 --> 0:43:25.800 like we're not actually talking about things in theory that 0:43:26.000 --> 0:43:29.600 this has real life consequences. I've seen people shoot each 0:43:29.600 --> 0:43:32.760 other over stuff they've read in the papers that wasn't 0:43:32.800 --> 0:43:34.560 necessarily true. 0:43:34.120 --> 0:43:35.320 And also take their lives. 0:43:35.800 --> 0:43:40.320 Exactly in the UK, they have taken their lives because 0:43:40.440 --> 0:43:45.280 you know, they've been tarnished trial by media. Nothing formal 0:43:45.560 --> 0:43:47.480 or nothing legal has come out of it, but it's 0:43:47.520 --> 0:43:49.840 just trial by media. They've read a bit of paper, 0:43:49.920 --> 0:43:52.160 all of a sudden, the whole world's against you, and 0:43:52.200 --> 0:43:53.160 it's too much for people. 0:43:53.160 --> 0:43:53.759 It's too much. 0:43:54.120 --> 0:43:57.880 You have this crazy thing in Australia where journalists are 0:43:57.960 --> 0:44:01.680 crying about defamation laws, and I agree, you know, defamation 0:44:01.800 --> 0:44:07.200 laws might be slightly lenient to super powerful people, but 0:44:07.280 --> 0:44:11.200 what they never fucking talk about is all of the 0:44:11.239 --> 0:44:14.200 people who don't have access to litigation and lawyers that 0:44:14.239 --> 0:44:17.279 they can talk about hook line and sinker and who 0:44:17.320 --> 0:44:20.400 never get an opportunity, those working class people, the crooks, 0:44:20.440 --> 0:44:24.720 the criminals, people who've been wrongly accused. They can't afford 0:44:24.760 --> 0:44:27.440 fifty thousand dollars a day in litigation, so they just 0:44:27.480 --> 0:44:29.880 have to swallow this image that's being portrayed. 0:44:29.920 --> 0:44:32.960 It's one sided image because they haven't haven't got the 0:44:32.960 --> 0:44:37.520 facilities or they know how to tell their to teil 0:44:37.560 --> 0:44:39.160 their side or it tends to get it out to 0:44:39.160 --> 0:44:39.720 the masses. 0:44:39.920 --> 0:44:42.239 And sometimes it's just the charge if they don't even 0:44:42.280 --> 0:44:44.920 follow it up to sentencing. So you have someone who's 0:44:44.960 --> 0:44:48.640 been charged with an offense who gets front page treatment 0:44:48.960 --> 0:44:51.239 and then he beats the charges and sentencing and he 0:44:51.280 --> 0:44:51.840 gets nothing. 0:44:52.960 --> 0:44:56.600 So, you know, and then you're working towards that you 0:44:56.960 --> 0:44:58.799 is that one of your is that you say, that's 0:44:58.800 --> 0:44:59.760 my ambition. 0:45:00.440 --> 0:45:03.080 Motivations to in why you do what you do? 0:45:03.160 --> 0:45:05.880 Now, definitely, I think that's what inspires me is to 0:45:06.400 --> 0:45:09.919 kind of reef. I think the thing that I can 0:45:09.960 --> 0:45:15.000 contribute is to reimagine crime reporting and in doing so, 0:45:15.200 --> 0:45:18.000 I mean, this is very idealistic, but in doing so, 0:45:18.120 --> 0:45:22.160 maybe it changes the public perception and maybe influences policy. 0:45:22.200 --> 0:45:25.319 And they reframe the way that they look at, you know, 0:45:26.160 --> 0:45:31.040 punishing people rather than actually rehabilitating them and trying to 0:45:31.040 --> 0:45:33.360 figure out what the kind of social issues are that 0:45:33.440 --> 0:45:37.960 are inspiring these crimes, rather than you know, just locking 0:45:37.960 --> 0:45:41.799 people up. Like why kids joining our motorcycle groups? Why 0:45:41.840 --> 0:45:46.520 are these outlaw motorcycle groups? You know, where are they 0:45:46.600 --> 0:45:51.239 coming from in society? What's what's actually generating these kinds 0:45:51.280 --> 0:45:53.360 of organized have. 0:45:53.440 --> 0:45:54.160 Been drawn to it? 0:45:54.239 --> 0:45:56.359 You know, yeah, yeah, yeah, And how can we think 0:45:56.360 --> 0:46:00.000 about those issues and disentangle that and kind of measures 0:46:00.080 --> 0:46:03.359 in place that move kids away from that. I think 0:46:03.400 --> 0:46:07.560 that that's the most interesting thing in the most you know, 0:46:07.560 --> 0:46:09.440 if I'm balancing your books, it's the thing that I 0:46:09.480 --> 0:46:14.319 hope to contribute in some idealistic social justice warrior kind 0:46:14.360 --> 0:46:15.960 of fashion. 0:46:17.719 --> 0:46:21.480 That you certainly know, mate, And adjusting to such a 0:46:21.520 --> 0:46:23.600 different way of life, how has that been. 0:46:25.160 --> 0:46:27.239 In that world? I was somebody, you know, and then 0:46:27.280 --> 0:46:31.759 you kind of nobody, and you feel you have to 0:46:31.800 --> 0:46:34.680 adjust around the way that people can disrespect yours things 0:46:34.680 --> 0:46:37.160 that you perceive to be disrespect You just kind of 0:46:37.160 --> 0:46:39.759 have to wear all that kind of stuff, and that 0:46:39.800 --> 0:46:42.160 takes a bit of adjusting to, and you know, obviously 0:46:42.480 --> 0:46:45.560 you're making a certain amount of money, you're partying, you're 0:46:45.560 --> 0:46:48.560 having fun, you feel like a rock star, or you're 0:46:48.600 --> 0:46:52.480 imitating this kind of rock star lifestyle. That's actually, like 0:46:52.520 --> 0:46:54.960 you said, it's actually just a master's hiding all this 0:46:55.040 --> 0:46:58.640 other stuff that you're dealing with inside your head. But 0:46:59.440 --> 0:47:01.839 sometimes you miss you miss all that. But I would 0:47:01.880 --> 0:47:04.239 never I would never have it any other way. You know. 0:47:04.280 --> 0:47:06.600 I'm so happy for where I'm at in my life 0:47:06.680 --> 0:47:09.000 right now, and I feel good every morning I wake 0:47:09.080 --> 0:47:11.680 up and I don't have to look behind my shoulder. 0:47:11.719 --> 0:47:14.000 I can go to any restaurant or any any bar, 0:47:14.160 --> 0:47:17.680 or any club that I want to go to without thinking, oh, man, 0:47:17.760 --> 0:47:19.399 is it going to get a bit tense here? Who's 0:47:19.440 --> 0:47:20.799 going to be you know? Do you know what I mean? 0:47:20.840 --> 0:47:25.439 I don't have to really, I don't have to work. Yeah, yeah, 0:47:25.600 --> 0:47:27.839 you don't have to. You don't have to second guess 0:47:27.840 --> 0:47:30.880 the police are tap my phone, all this sort of stuff. 0:47:30.880 --> 0:47:33.319 You don't, you know, they're bugs in my car, all 0:47:33.719 --> 0:47:35.560 of this stuff. You can just be free, you can 0:47:35.600 --> 0:47:38.840 just be you just do your bit and be happy 0:47:38.920 --> 0:47:41.799 and you know, look after the ones that will be 0:47:41.920 --> 0:47:43.239 there for you to the end. 0:47:44.239 --> 0:47:48.960 And have you re established or refound your identity you know, 0:47:49.040 --> 0:47:50.240 who is mamood. 0:47:51.400 --> 0:47:57.160 I think it's like this, you know, because of what 0:47:57.520 --> 0:47:59.480 might have happened, what happened to me when I was young. 0:47:59.520 --> 0:48:04.440 I think I'm just constantly reconstructing and diverting and becoming 0:48:04.520 --> 0:48:06.759 this different person. And I think that's a way that 0:48:07.320 --> 0:48:10.360 helps me deal with who I was in the past 0:48:10.400 --> 0:48:13.560 and kind of suppressed that in some way. I haven't 0:48:13.600 --> 0:48:16.360 reverted back to any identity. I think I'm just constantly 0:48:16.400 --> 0:48:20.479 constructing your identities and kind of distracting myself with lots 0:48:20.480 --> 0:48:24.840 of work and trying to contribute in the most positive way. 0:48:25.040 --> 0:48:28.480 And going back to head game. Final question for you, Malud, 0:48:29.280 --> 0:48:31.880 what has your experience taught you about resilience. 0:48:33.400 --> 0:48:36.440 I think you just have to back yourself in. I 0:48:36.480 --> 0:48:40.640 think that's all it's taught me is always like believing 0:48:40.640 --> 0:48:46.520 in yourself and knowing that no matter how how much 0:48:46.560 --> 0:48:51.760 noise there is, you can always the decisions, always yours, 0:48:51.800 --> 0:48:54.279 and you can just walk away. I think that's the 0:48:54.280 --> 0:48:56.680 most powerful thing for me in terms of resilience, is 0:48:56.719 --> 0:49:00.319 that you are the owner of your decisions and how 0:49:00.400 --> 0:49:03.440 much noise there is and how much bullshit. There is 0:49:03.520 --> 0:49:06.080 out there of people saying you have to do this, 0:49:06.160 --> 0:49:08.400 you have you actually don't have to do nothing. You 0:49:08.600 --> 0:49:10.839 just be yourself and make your own decisions and that's 0:49:10.920 --> 0:49:14.040 that and that's it. You know, No, I've done that. 0:49:14.640 --> 0:49:15.919 It's worked for me, mate. 0:49:15.960 --> 0:49:19.279 I've loved this conversation. Loads of common ground, loads in 0:49:19.360 --> 0:49:24.520 common from two people that had two completely separate careers. 0:49:25.160 --> 0:49:26.759 Yeah, it's been fascinating, mate. 0:49:26.800 --> 0:49:29.839 Thank you for coming on Risk gentlemen, may keep doing 0:49:29.880 --> 0:49:34.280 what you're doing. Thanks so much for joining me on Headgame. 0:49:34.760 --> 0:49:37.960 If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you're subscribed so 0:49:38.000 --> 0:49:41.080 you don't miss any of our incredible stories and leave 0:49:41.160 --> 0:49:45.120 me a review wherever you're listening, I'm at Middleton. 0:49:45.520 --> 0:49:47.279 Catch you again next time.