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Speaker 1: We'd like to acknowledge that traditional custodians of the land

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Speaker 1: on which this podcast was produced, the Gellighl people of

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Speaker 1: the urination. We pay our respects to Elder's past and present.

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Speaker 2: It's the late nineties and Mahmud Fazao is growing up

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Speaker 2: in the southeastern suburbs of Melbourne. His parents settled here

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Speaker 2: after fleeing the Soviet War in Afghanistan, and for my

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Speaker 2: Mood is a calm and loving childhood. Weekends are spent

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Speaker 2: with Dad at work in the dandinglong markets, and at

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Speaker 2: home his mum cooks delicious delicacies to keep the memories

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Speaker 2: of their homeland alive. They're a loving family and life

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Speaker 2: in Australia is good.

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Speaker 3: That is until two thousand and one, when.

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Speaker 2: Everything changes, not just for Ma Mood but for all

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Speaker 2: Afghans all around the world. Until now, no one knew

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Speaker 2: much about their homeland. Now it's a country everyone is

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Speaker 2: aware of. Mamood is just starting high school and kids

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Speaker 2: are crueled in a country he once felt at home.

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Speaker 2: He is completely outed nine eleven, shakes his sense of

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Speaker 2: belonging and changes life in Australia forever. This lack of

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Speaker 2: belonging the feeling of being an outsider will lead him

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Speaker 2: to become deeply embedded in one of Australia's most violent gangs.

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Speaker 2: I'm Att Middleton and this is head Game Today. How

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Speaker 2: Mahmoud Fazzau became a sergeant at arms for the Mongol's

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Speaker 2: Bikey Gang and the lessons in resilience, reinvention and redemption.

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Speaker 2: Mahmood Fuzz, thank you so much for coming on my

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Speaker 2: podcast head Game Now.

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Speaker 3: You've got quite a fascinating story. Where were you born? Mahmoud?

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Speaker 4: I was born here in Melbourne in the southeast in

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Speaker 4: nineteen ninety. So my parents moved here from Afghanistan. They've

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Speaker 4: fled the Soviet invasion and my father's uncle sponsored him

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Speaker 4: to come over here roughly around eighty eight. And yeah,

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Speaker 4: two years later I arrived him.

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Speaker 3: Two years later you were born, Mamood? And what was

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Speaker 3: your household?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 3: What was it was it?

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Speaker 2: Was it quite Australian or were you still quite traditional

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Speaker 2: with your afghan roots and the ways of the Middle East?

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Speaker 3: Shall we say?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, my parents were definitely still trying to figure

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Speaker 4: out this land in which they had arrived and they

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Speaker 4: you know, they spoke Pashto at home. I grew up

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Speaker 4: in an Afghan household that was very much time locked

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Speaker 4: to pre Soviet invasion Afghanistan, which was quite you know,

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Speaker 4: unique in that it was conservative, but there were progressive

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Speaker 4: elements of the country as well. You know, women were

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Speaker 4: going to university that was American records you could readily access.

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Speaker 4: There was a big music culture and a big poetry culture.

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Speaker 4: So I grew up in a household that very much

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Speaker 4: celebrated that kind of Afghan heritage, and Pascheda was my

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Speaker 4: first language. But otherwise I was very much encouraged to

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Speaker 4: be an Australian. You know, my parents were barracked for

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Speaker 4: the Australian cricket team. You know, we were very much

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Speaker 4: part of this culture and very much my parents encouraged

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Speaker 4: me to be as Australian as I could be, and

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Speaker 4: I was welcomed at school, in primary school and in

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Speaker 4: my community as an Australian for well until nine to

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Speaker 4: eleven pretty much.

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Speaker 2: So did you see yourself as Australian or did you

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Speaker 2: see yourself as Afghani?

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Speaker 4: There wasn't really a confusion. I think I merged the

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Speaker 4: two to yeah, and I very much felt Australian and

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Speaker 4: Afghan at the same time. And at school, I remember,

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Speaker 4: you know, kids being kind of fascinated by this exotic,

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Speaker 4: kind of strange place that no one had heard of

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Speaker 4: back then, particularly in suburban, working class suburban Melbourne. This

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Speaker 4: place Afghanistan. It was just kind of like a tongue

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Speaker 4: twister that they would you know, joke about in the

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Speaker 4: school yard, but no one actually knew where this strange

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Speaker 4: place was. And yeah, I mean I never felt like

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Speaker 4: an outsider really. I was definitely one of the boys

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Speaker 4: on the school yard. And yeah, very much part of

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Speaker 4: the community and very much an Australian. I didn't really

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Speaker 4: know what it meant to be an Afghan outside of

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Speaker 4: my home. You know, there wasn't much of an Afghan

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Speaker 4: community back then either, so my experience of Afghanistan was

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Speaker 4: very limited to my specific household. I think back then

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Speaker 4: our community was only like a hundred people in the

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Speaker 4: whole of Victoria, so and there were a lot of

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Speaker 4: my family members.

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Speaker 2: So primary school, you mentioned primary school, was that quite

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Speaker 2: a comfortable living, quite a good way of living. You

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Speaker 2: were very sort of integrated, You loved it, and you

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Speaker 2: mentioned there that things changed after obviously nine eleven, huge

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Speaker 2: event global event that happened, but just taught me prior

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Speaker 2: prior to that, were you a fun loving kid and

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Speaker 2: just happy, go lucky and loving life.

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Speaker 4: I was very much happy you got lucky. You know.

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Speaker 4: I listened to powder Finger, I did all the things

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Speaker 4: young Australian kids did. I was probably edging on being

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Speaker 4: like a Bogain like I was, you know, I was

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Speaker 4: into VLS. I was just yeah, I played cricket, wanted

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Speaker 4: to be like Brettley, you know all that stuff. And

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Speaker 4: then yeah, around grade five, things started shifting. You know.

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Speaker 4: I had a bit of a kind of a traumatic

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Speaker 4: event that happened in grade five, and then the following

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Speaker 4: year was nine to eleven, when I was in grade six,

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Speaker 4: and there was this real shift where I felt like

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Speaker 4: I was this part of the community, but from a

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Speaker 4: strange land, but I wasn't one of the boys. To

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Speaker 4: suddenly everyone feeling as though they actually knew the real me,

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Speaker 4: you know, they began to understand what Afghanistan was, and

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Speaker 4: who the people from Afghanistan were and what they represented

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Speaker 4: and what they really wanted to do to the West. Well,

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Speaker 4: that was how I felt, you know, I felt like

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Speaker 4: I'd kind of been stained with this brush that, you know,

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Speaker 4: the media kind of propelled.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. So it

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Speaker 2: was a knock on of effects really from grade five

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Speaker 2: and then grade six, nine eleven happens.

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Speaker 3: Do you remember that day?

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Speaker 4: I remember the morning quite vividly, like seeing my father

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Speaker 4: on the couch kind of watching the planes flying over

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Speaker 4: and over again, juxtaposed with these images of bearded men

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Speaker 4: in these caves and then the mountains of Afghanistan, like

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Speaker 4: just over and and over again, and my dad kind

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Speaker 4: of seemed worried. I think it was one of the

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Speaker 4: only times i'd really seen my dad kind of concerned

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Speaker 4: and worried, which was odd. I knew something weird was

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Speaker 4: going on. And then I remember being at school and

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Speaker 4: it was this kind of strange panic. Even in the classroom.

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Speaker 4: Everyone seemed confused, and we're talking about it. And we

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Speaker 4: were like eleven years old, you know, so it's kind

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Speaker 4: of weird. But people, the teachers were obviously concerned and

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Speaker 4: the kids were talking about it, and I remember one

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Speaker 4: of the girls looking over at me and saying, isn't

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Speaker 4: that where you're from? And said, yeah, you know, And

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Speaker 4: it was this really profound moment where I suddenly realized

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Speaker 4: that I wasn't part of the group. I might be,

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Speaker 4: I might belong to something else, and I kind of

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Speaker 4: had to understand that and learn about that and reckon

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Speaker 4: with what that meant.

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Speaker 2: So when when that happened, did you no longer sort

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Speaker 2: of see yourself as Australian? Did it flip straight over

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Speaker 2: to right? People are looking at me now, looking at

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Speaker 2: my home country. This event has just happened. Did you

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Speaker 2: sort of go back into your Afghanistan heritage because obviously

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Speaker 2: you were pushed into that way, or was it a

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Speaker 2: conscious decision of you know, wow, this is happening in

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Speaker 2: my homeland.

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Speaker 4: Well, the following year nine to eleven happened towards in September, obviously,

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Speaker 4: and then the following year was my first year of

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Speaker 4: high school. So there's already all this this flood of

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Speaker 4: emotions and you're trying to reckon with all of that stuff,

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Speaker 4: and suddenly you go from being the oldest kids yard

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Speaker 4: to the youngest kid in the school yard. Yeah, and

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Speaker 4: there was this odd thing where all these people that

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Speaker 4: you grew up with, that you had relationships with, suddenly

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Speaker 4: didn't want to hang out with you and associate with you.

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Speaker 4: In the high school yard, and so you gravitate towards

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Speaker 4: the handful of other kids that kind of get you.

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Speaker 4: And I was lucky enough. I had a couple of

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Speaker 4: cousins at the school that I went to, and we

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Speaker 4: just kind of clicked together. And I was like, did you.

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Speaker 3: Feel like that you had to click together?

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Speaker 2: Did you feel like that you were pushed towards that

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Speaker 2: and you naturally gravitated towards that because of the situation.

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Speaker 4: I think it was obvious that we felt excluded.

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Speaker 3: And it was an obvious exclusion.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and there was you know, a lot of school

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Speaker 4: yard jokes around, you know, terrorists and you know, and

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Speaker 4: when you're young and your naive, you kind of play

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Speaker 4: along with all that stuff because you want to be accepted,

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Speaker 4: you know. And so but then you know, there was

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Speaker 4: a few very stern conversations you know, I had with

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Speaker 4: my cousins. Wo, we decide we're not going to cop

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Speaker 4: it anymore. And yeah, like I said, there was maybe

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Speaker 4: four or five of us. Even some of the Arabs

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Speaker 4: that were hanging out with us. They were like Christian

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Speaker 4: Palestinian kids, like they were Christians, but they still got

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Speaker 4: you know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they still got excluded too of it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they were still seen as kind of

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Speaker 4: these terrorists Middle Eastern kids, these terrorist Arabs. So yeah,

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Speaker 4: it wasn't just us, but there was maybe maybe five

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Speaker 4: or six of us. They just stuck together. And very early,

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Speaker 4: maybe halfway through that first year, one of my cousins

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Speaker 4: was at the school. She used to wear a hijab

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Speaker 4: and she got like, I remember, she got like an

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Speaker 4: orange pegged at her head, you know, and the white hijab,

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Speaker 4: you know, there was just bits of orange all over it.

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Speaker 4: And it was a kind of breaking point where my cousin.

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Speaker 4: My cousin was a lot more aggressive than I was,

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Speaker 4: and he said, you know, I'm not copping that anymore.

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Speaker 4: And this was a much older kid too that did it.

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Speaker 4: It was in year lefton or something, year twelve, and yeah,

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Speaker 4: it was we went to his locker bain and we.

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Speaker 3: Just pushed a breaking point really yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and pretty much pretty much, I mean, we knew

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Speaker 4: that if we don't do anything, we're just going to

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Speaker 4: keep copying this for the next for the rest of

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Speaker 4: our lives in high school. Yeah yeah. And so then

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Speaker 4: when we did that, people started respecting us. It really

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Speaker 4: confused us because we used violence in a very aggressive

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Speaker 4: way and we got respect for it and people didn't

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Speaker 4: fuck with us. And so in our very young minds,

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Speaker 4: we thought, well that's the answer, you know, and then it.

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Speaker 2: Works, right, It's like it works, we get in respect.

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Speaker 2: Was our mindset shift there as well, Manmoud? Was there

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Speaker 2: mindset shift of actually, you know you've pushed me out,

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Speaker 2: you know, fuck you lot, We're going to stick together.

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Speaker 3: It's us again.

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Speaker 2: Was it divisive like that or was it just a case, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was make you feel angry.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we were very angry, very We felt betrayed by

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Speaker 4: the people that we loved, you know, in the community

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Speaker 4: that we love that estranged us, and so we suddenly

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Speaker 4: I remember borrowing books about Afghanistan from the school library,

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Speaker 4: like literally having to learn because my parents were like

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Speaker 4: my dad was kind of a literally never went to

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Speaker 4: school and stuff, so we couldn't like mind him for

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Speaker 4: the history of our country. Everything he knew was kind

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Speaker 4: of third or fourth hand, and so I just remember

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Speaker 4: like literally trying to learn about who I was in

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Speaker 4: these strange texts at the school library and suddenly having

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Speaker 4: to face the fact that, you know, I'm never going

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Speaker 4: to be seen as an AUSSI. None of these kids

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Speaker 4: will ever believe that I'm an Aussi. So I've got

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Speaker 4: to actually figure out who the fuck I am in

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Speaker 4: this in this strange environment.

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Speaker 2: Did you try and say I was born here, I'm

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Speaker 2: just as Australian as you are.

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Speaker 3: And was there was there a fight with that?

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Speaker 2: Did you use the will to fight that fight or

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Speaker 2: was it just a case of the segregation was too

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Speaker 2: obviously divided. You stick to your group, their stick to

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Speaker 2: their group, and we need to just to stick together.

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Speaker 4: I think everyone's mind at that point was already made

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Speaker 4: up that, you know, it really is a war of

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Speaker 4: us against them, the West, against these people in the

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Speaker 4: Middle East. And if you know, you believe in any

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Speaker 4: of things that these people in the Middle East believe,

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Speaker 4: you're not part of us. And we were Muslims, you know,

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Speaker 4: so it was we very much believed that, you know,

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Speaker 4: we probably are not part of this group anymore. And

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Speaker 4: so it was very confusing, and we definitely had to

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Speaker 4: basically seek out a new identity or constructing new identity,

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Speaker 4: and it was very much, you know, it was very

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Speaker 4: disorientating that it was Also the main problem was that

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Speaker 4: we began to use violence that got results, and then

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Speaker 4: that kind of intoxicated us further. And yeah, it was

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Speaker 4: all It was just a kind of slippery slope that

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Speaker 4: made us make a lot of bad decisions.

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Speaker 2: And what path of destruction if it was a path

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Speaker 2: of destruction or violence, did that lead you down? From

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Speaker 2: that moment onwards.

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Speaker 4: Well, we kind of shifted into like we in the beginning,

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Speaker 4: it was like reactionary. You know, we thought, you know,

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Speaker 4: these people are going to be picking on us, so

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Speaker 4: we're going to get them back. But then we just started,

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Speaker 4: you know, we thought, well, actually, let's addressed upon him

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Speaker 4: before it starts, and just started you know, almost like

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Speaker 4: terrorizing the other kids in the on the school yard,

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Speaker 4: you know, and just being really awful people. But it

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Speaker 4: was a it protected us, and it was a very

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Speaker 4: early lesson in that, you know, I began to learn

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Speaker 4: that sometimes the most aggressive and violent and unpredictable people

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Speaker 4: are often the most scared and the most vulnerable, and

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Speaker 4: that's why they lash out the way they do. And

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Speaker 4: so yeah, but that's what happened. And then we started,

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Speaker 4: you know, meeting other kids from other neighborhoods that were

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Speaker 4: the same as us, and then we just started hustling

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Speaker 4: and you know, yeah, getting up to no good and

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Speaker 4: clicking up with other kids who also viewed themselves as

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Speaker 4: outsiders and were forming little groups. And then we'd all

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Speaker 4: hang out after school and you know, it kind of

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Speaker 4: erupted out of the school environment onto the streets, and

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Speaker 4: you know, that's that's how it happens when you're young.

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Speaker 4: You know, you're just you're not going to go to school.

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Speaker 4: You don't feel like the system is playing in your favor,

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Speaker 4: and so you're going to do what all the other

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Speaker 4: kids on the street are doing, who also feel rejected

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Speaker 4: and neglected by that system. So you start, you start,

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Speaker 4: you know, falling off.

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Speaker 2: And did you start to sort of completely push away

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Speaker 2: your Australian identity.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I just I was just angry. I was just

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Speaker 4: like angry at it because I was like, you know, overnight,

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Speaker 4: you know, you feel like you've part, you've done, You've

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Speaker 4: made all the sacrifices to assimilate and to integrate into

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Speaker 4: this culture for all to be thrown away at the

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Speaker 4: drop of the hat. You know, I was just furious.

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Speaker 4: And then there was this kind of campaign in the media,

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Speaker 4: well what felt like to us as a campaign where

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Speaker 4: there's all these stories on the front page of the

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Speaker 4: tabloid press about you know, young, violent, many most of

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Speaker 4: the time Muslim men, and it constructed this kind of

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Speaker 4: image in the zeitgeist about who we were and what

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Speaker 4: we represented. So you had the you know, you had

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Speaker 4: the the scaff rape trials. You know, you had you know,

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Speaker 4: the boat, the people smugglers, you had the Cronulla, you

292
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Speaker 4: had the Iraq War. You know, you had these guys,

293
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Speaker 4: the Taliban, you had Isis. You had all of these

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Speaker 4: images that weren't There was nothing to There was no

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Speaker 4: other media representation that kind of balanced the books. Really,

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Speaker 4: you know that the only time you saw young Middle

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Speaker 4: Eastern men on screen, they were up to no good,

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Speaker 4: you know, and.

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Speaker 2: Of course I don't know favors. And also you you

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Speaker 2: sort of play up to that, don't you, Especially when

301
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Speaker 2: you're young and you're naive and and you said it's

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Speaker 2: spilled out onto the streets. How what do you mean

303
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Speaker 2: when you say it's spilt out onto the streets?

304
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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, like back then, when you're young and

305
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Speaker 4: you're just like drinking with your maids and smoking with

306
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Speaker 4: your mates after school, you don't really you don't sit

307
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Speaker 4: down together and call yourselves a gang and like start

308
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Speaker 4: you know, like making t shirts and stuff. You just

309
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Speaker 4: hanging around. But back then it was all like it

310
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Speaker 4: revolved around your Neighborhood's kind of like there's a whole

311
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Speaker 4: postcode thing now. Back back in suburban Melbourne, it was

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Speaker 4: all it all gravitated around like train stations, because kids

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Speaker 4: would hang out at train stations and they could they

314
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Speaker 4: could be mobile or through train stations and go different ways.

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Speaker 4: So each train station kind of had its own little

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Speaker 4: crew of people. It was.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's postcodes now, isn't it. So yeah, that's interesting.

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Speaker 4: And so people would like if you had drama with

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Speaker 4: someone else and he you always had drama with someone

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Speaker 4: from a different kind of train station, and you get

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Speaker 4: on the trains and run to the go go through

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Speaker 4: their train station and they do the same. So that's

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Speaker 4: that's kind of what the culture was like in Melbourne.

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Speaker 4: And they were like, you know, kids started going a

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Speaker 4: juvie and kids are getting stabbed all of a sudden,

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Speaker 4: and then you know, people are moving pills and people

327
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Speaker 4: were smoking weed and selling weed. And then there's like

328
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Speaker 4: the older you start hearing about the older boys and

329
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Speaker 4: then they become like these mythic kind of war heroes

330
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Speaker 4: that have you know, dunstints in jail, they're driving you know, amgs.

331
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Speaker 4: And that's when it really glorified.

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Speaker 3: Everything's glorified, isn't it.

333
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Speaker 2: And like you say, you almost want to uphold that reputation,

334
00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,200
Speaker 2: you know, and and do do you know your your team?

335
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Speaker 4: Proud?

336
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Speaker 3: Shall we see?

337
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Speaker 4: Yeah? But it's also it goes back to this other

338
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,440
Speaker 4: thing where there were no other positive role models back

339
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,439
Speaker 4: then to counterbalance that. So in the neighborhoods that we

340
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,600
Speaker 4: were kicking it at, the only people who looked like

341
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:23,040
Speaker 4: they had money and were successful were drug dealers. That's

342
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Speaker 4: all there was, Like they were everybody knew they were

343
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Speaker 4: drug dealers. They might have had a panel beating shop,

344
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Speaker 4: they might have had a little, you know, a little

345
00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,639
Speaker 4: side trust somewhere yeah, yeah, little you know, a pizza

346
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Speaker 4: shop where they would wash their money, but they were

347
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:37,760
Speaker 4: all drug dealers. And so when you grew up in

348
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Speaker 4: an environment like that, you think, well, the only way

349
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Speaker 4: out for me is to do what these guys are doing,

350
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Speaker 4: and so.

351
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Speaker 3: Make my money, yeah, and then yeah, away we go.

352
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Speaker 4: Yeah. And so my parents, my parents could seem that

353
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Speaker 4: I was really you know, falling off the track here

354
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Speaker 4: and I'm getting up to no good and you know,

355
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Speaker 4: I got got arrested a couple of times, and you know,

356
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,760
Speaker 4: my parents finding weapons on me and weapons in my

357
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:06,439
Speaker 4: room and stuff like that, and they knew that it

358
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:10,080
Speaker 4: was it was getting really wild, so they they sent

359
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Speaker 4: me off to like a posh school.

360
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Speaker 3: You know, when did you know that it was getting

361
00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:15,040
Speaker 3: really wild?

362
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,480
Speaker 4: I didn't really have that moment. I can see it

363
00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:20,920
Speaker 4: in hindsight, but at the time, it wasn't like this

364
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,080
Speaker 4: awakening inside me that motivated me and inspired me to

365
00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:29,040
Speaker 4: do better. It wasn't. But yeah, one of my best

366
00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:37,200
Speaker 4: friends there was like, what these kinds of career they're

367
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,639
Speaker 4: kind of like these big events where all these different

368
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,600
Speaker 4: high schools go to and they put the universities present

369
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,159
Speaker 4: like career prospects and they kind of yeah, yeah, like

370
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:50,320
Speaker 4: career opportunities and like pathways to different universities and stuff

371
00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,040
Speaker 4: like that. And one of my best mates got into

372
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Speaker 4: it with guys from a different area and ended up,

373
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Speaker 4: you know, stabbing up a couple of people at this

374
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:04,240
Speaker 4: kind of high school event thing, and he got locked

375
00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,800
Speaker 4: up and went away for a couple of years. So

376
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:09,919
Speaker 4: that was that was one of the real kind of

377
00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:14,200
Speaker 4: pivotal moments in my childhood where I thought, oh, it's

378
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:17,080
Speaker 4: getting you know, pretty serious, like he could have killed

379
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:21,200
Speaker 4: those kids or whatever. And ironically the kids he stabbed

380
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,800
Speaker 4: were Afghans, so they were Hazara kids who had just

381
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,200
Speaker 4: come in the second wave. So there was another wave

382
00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:31,679
Speaker 4: of Afghans in Melbourne that came after the invasion. So

383
00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,240
Speaker 4: but yeah, and so my parents wanted to get me

384
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,680
Speaker 4: away from the environment that I was in, and they

385
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,159
Speaker 4: did that by putting me in school and suddenly I

386
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,679
Speaker 4: lost contact with and my mate went to jail and

387
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,919
Speaker 4: Julie and so suddenly I was kind of in this

388
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,440
Speaker 4: new environment and yeah, wow.

389
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Speaker 2: And so your parents are seeing this, this fall of grace,

390
00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,560
Speaker 2: shall we say, are they?

391
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,320
Speaker 3: Are they super concerned for you? Do they pull you

392
00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:04,280
Speaker 3: aside at any point?

393
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,720
Speaker 2: And is there a moment where you know they pull

394
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:09,639
Speaker 2: you to one side and says this has to stop?

395
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,320
Speaker 4: You have to oh yeah, many times, many times, but

396
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 4: you kind of don't. It's hard to explain because you

397
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 4: know that there's that duality, like you mentioned that there's

398
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:21,119
Speaker 4: the person you are at home and then there's a

399
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,400
Speaker 4: person you are outside, and you feel like they're two

400
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,720
Speaker 4: dope split personalities, like they're two different people. And when

401
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:28,440
Speaker 4: they start pulling you up on who you are on

402
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 4: the outside, you kind of get mad at them because

403
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:33,359
Speaker 4: you're like, you don't know what it's like for me,

404
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:35,639
Speaker 4: in a very fucking teenage angsty way, you know, like

405
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:36,959
Speaker 4: you don't know what it's like for them. But they

406
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,960
Speaker 4: really didn't. They really believed in the Australian dream that

407
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,880
Speaker 4: you know, this is a meritocracy and you know it's

408
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 4: not you're fucking up is you know, it's because you're

409
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 4: fucking up. You know, you've got every opportunity here. They

410
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:55,199
Speaker 4: came from Candahart and the farms in rural Candahar, you

411
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 4: know what I mean. They thought, you know, we've got

412
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,439
Speaker 4: every opportunity here, why are you throwing it away? And

413
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,680
Speaker 4: there was all this kind of complex socio political stuff

414
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 4: swirling around us that they couldn't comprehend, and neither could we.

415
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 4: But yeah, I think we knew that they couldn't understand

416
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,920
Speaker 4: something that was happening to us, and so every time

417
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 4: they pulled us up where it was just like, you know,

418
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:17,840
Speaker 4: I fucking get it.

419
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,160
Speaker 3: Eventually, Were you part of a biker gain as well.

420
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, so that happened af So I went to school,

421
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,399
Speaker 4: and when I went to that posh school, I went

422
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 4: to art school. I really was inspired to read. I

423
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 4: had a few very influential teachers at that school that

424
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 4: really inspired me to find h reconfigure this my moral

425
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 4: compass through actually reading. And I became quite a voracious

426
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 4: and obsessive reader. And then I went to art school,

427
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 4: got out of Art school and couldn't get a job

428
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,160
Speaker 4: and stuff, and then I found myself back at square one.

429
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 4: So I was waxing with those same kids that I

430
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 4: grew up with, and one thing led to another, except

431
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 4: that they hadn't had that moment where they they left

432
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,239
Speaker 4: and came back. They had just graduated on and on

433
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,920
Speaker 4: to bigger and bigger things on the streets. And so

434
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,919
Speaker 4: by the time I linked up with them after art school,

435
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 4: they were all already kind of making big moves in

436
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 4: the suburbs. And you know, they had big runs, and

437
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 4: you know they were pretty serious serious.

438
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 2: And when you say making big moves, obviously there's a

439
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 2: there's a ranking system within these organizations where they making

440
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 2: their way up the ranks, are earning more money.

441
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 3: Was that the case there and new thought, right.

442
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 4: Job, they were just like looking out for me because

443
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 4: they could see that I didn't have any money or

444
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 4: anything like that, and I didn't have a job, and

445
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 4: no one was hiring people that looked like us back

446
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 4: then with names like ma Mud, and so they were

447
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 4: just like chopping me in to what they were doing.

448
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:09,919
Speaker 4: And I guess I started helping them like I brought,

449
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 4: you know, I kind of helped them strategize and helped

450
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,120
Speaker 4: them think of new ways of applying new new kind

451
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 4: of business models or applying new kind of logistical strategies

452
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 4: in what they were already doing, because I could offer

453
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 4: them a fresh way of thinking about crime, organized crime.

454
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 4: And I was very resourceful and so very quickly it

455
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 4: was noticed by specific people back then, and I climbed

456
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 4: the ranks very quickly. And then Yeah, there was a

457
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 4: guy in prison who was kind of a father figure

458
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 4: to the Muslims in jail, who was very influential, and

459
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 4: he was being patched into an outlaw motorcycle club and

460
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 4: I was part of a group of people that were

461
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 4: representing him on the outside. And then we went to

462
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 4: the outlaw motorcycle club and eventually became members.

463
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 2: Wow, and this when you became members. Was it a

464
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 2: mixture of all religions or was it just Muslims or

465
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 2: how did that work?

466
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 4: No, it was it was back then it was a

467
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 4: club called the Pinx, but then it patched into another

468
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 4: international motorcycle club called the Mongols well known. Yeah, but

469
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 4: back it was it was outlaw. Motorcycle culture is unique

470
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,439
Speaker 4: and as you probably know, it was born out of

471
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 4: returning Vietnam vets who felt ostracized by their communities, who

472
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 4: bounded together and found that adrenaline rush or found that

473
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 4: freedom and the place to express themselves in these kind

474
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 4: of subcultures, and they formed these brotherhoods, you know, and

475
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 4: they were all mixed, you know, they were they were

476
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 4: people from different backgrounds that just felt like outsiders that boundery.

477
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 4: Were literally blood related by colors, by the colors of

478
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 4: their vests and by the patches that they were and

479
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 4: it's kind of like you wear an oath to belong

480
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 4: to each other. And so yeah, it was refreshing to

481
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 4: see that these this is another group that is also

482
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 4: that gets what's happened to us and understands and that

483
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 4: they'll accept us because they are in the same vein

484
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 4: of that you know, outside of culture or counterculture or whatever.

485
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 3: And was there Australians in this bike organization.

486
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, definitely, probably a majority were Australians. I mean,

487
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 4: the Phinx was a very kind of Anglo Australian club

488
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 4: that originated in Adelaide. So yeah, there definitely was that

489
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 4: the heritage of that old white, traditional, classic outlaw biker,

490
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 4: big bearded kind of you know, tattered up a lot

491
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 4: of Nazi kind of symbolism in the air. There was

492
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,439
Speaker 4: a lot of that stuff going on. But by the

493
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 4: time we got involved, there was a shift in outlaw

494
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 4: motorcycle culture in Australia where different clubs were vying for

495
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 4: power by basically recruiting people who were influential on the streets.

496
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 4: And the people at that time who were influential on

497
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 4: the streets were all from different backgrounds, and majority of

498
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 4: them Middle Easterners, mainly in Sydney and then in Melbourne.

499
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 4: And I think a lot of that has got to

500
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 4: do with a lot of these problems in which, you know,

501
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 4: after nine to eleven and after all that stuff, the

502
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 4: kids began running a MUK on the street. They some

503
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 4: of them did very well and built really hectic reputations

504
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 4: for themselves and then they got kind of drafted these

505
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 4: by these clubs.

506
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 3: Was what was you know, that bikey life, Like I.

507
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 4: Mean it, it can be whatever you want to make it.

508
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 4: You know, it is very much a club that is

509
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 4: full of people who really die hard motorcycle enthusiasts that

510
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 4: love the culture. And I'm just gonna disclaimer here is

511
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 4: that you know, I'm talking about a club seven or

512
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 4: eight years ago, you know, and I'm talking about a

513
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 4: very specific chapter of a club that's not you know,

514
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 4: I'm not I'm not saying like this is how every

515
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 4: club in Australia works, and I don't know how clubs

516
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,479
Speaker 4: work now even so I'm just I'm just giving my

517
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 4: own personal perspective from that time. Yeah, yeah, and so yeah,

518
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 4: back then, there was people who loved who would die

519
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 4: hard motorcycle and enthusiasts. There were people who are obviously traumatized,

520
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 4: were people who felt lonely, and there were there was

521
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 4: you know, drug dealers, there were thugs. There was a

522
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 4: bit of everyone because it was a place that accepted

523
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 4: you no matter what your background was.

524
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 3: Outlaws, right, yeah, yeah, of course, it.

525
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 4: Was just whatever corner of the world you came from.

526
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 4: You could be accepted as long as you subscribe to

527
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 4: this code and to this, to this brand or whatever.

528
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 4: And so it wasn't like Sons of anarchy where people

529
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 4: sit around at the table and you've got the fucking

530
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 4: president talent everyone like, you've got to move these guns

531
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 4: from Sydney to you know, the Northern territory and you know,

532
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 4: what's the what are the Cinelons up to this weekend?

533
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 4: And you know, like that, there's nothing that doesn't exist.

534
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm sure it does exist, but it doesn't

535
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 4: exist in that way. Everything is very much on a

536
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 4: need to know basis. And if you want to do

537
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 4: something and there's people at that club that can assist

538
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 4: you in doing so, you might get up to something

539
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 4: like that, but there's no way the entire club would know,

540
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 4: and it would be it'd kind of be the same

541
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 4: way as if you were in a football club, you know,

542
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 4: and you and you a couple of people at your

543
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 4: footage club that you know, do a few things and

544
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 4: you start connecting and connecting the dots, you know. The

545
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 4: only difference is because you're in this environment that attracts

546
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 4: people from all walks of life, their connections are far

547
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 4: deeper and potentially wilder than you know, the boys you

548
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 4: meet a footy club and so you can you potentially

549
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 4: get up to a lot graver. Yeah, such deeper, deeper thing,

550
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 4: yeah yeah yeah.

551
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 2: And how desensitized at this stage in your life, so

552
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 2: you know you've patched in, you live in that full

553
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 2: outlaw life. How desensitized to violence and drugs and to

554
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 2: the normal life are you? Yeah?

555
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 4: I guess I think I don't actually know how you

556
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 4: could be dissensitized advanced. I mean, you would probably be

557
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 4: a better person to answer that question. I would. I mean,

558
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 4: for me, every time I sawance, it was shocking. You know,

559
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 4: I never got really used to it. And it's always

560
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 4: you know, odd, and it's not as you would imagine

561
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 4: it to be, and it unfolds in a very grotesque

562
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 4: and crudal way. And it's always a little bit different,

563
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 4: you know, like the way people fall, you know, the

564
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 4: way people bleed out. Sometimes they don't bleed, you know,

565
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 4: you know what knocks people out, the way they have

566
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 4: fits on the ground, and some people, you know, just

567
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 4: get back up and don't remember what they were doing.

568
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 4: You know, it's always very odd, and.

569
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 3: It's always different. Isn't it.

570
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 2: It's like you said, you know, just how people feel,

571
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 2: how people react, how people you know, it's not like

572
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 2: it is in the movies.

573
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 4: No, and the sounds are all it's very different. Yeah, yeah,

574
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 4: because you're hardwired to think it's going to be like

575
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 4: the movies. But then when you see it and you

576
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 4: see how cold it is and the way that you know,

577
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 4: when it happens, you expect something, someone to intervene or something,

578
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 4: and then they don't, and it's suddenly like one of

579
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 4: the craziest things. I remember hearing from someone who committed

580
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 4: you know, being a prison for for for murder, and

581
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 4: I remember hearing this thing that they said that the

582
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 4: scariest thing was like they woke up the next day

583
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 4: and they were the same person, you know, like they

584
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 4: were just they were just doing the same shit, like

585
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 4: they were just going to the coffee shop, and that

586
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 4: was the like they even they expected for something to

587
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 4: happen and it didn't.

588
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 3: When did you think, you know, enough is enough? And

589
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 3: how did that happen?

590
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 4: For me? It was like a cumulative effect. And I

591
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 4: will say, like again, just say that I know people

592
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 4: might be listening to this and say, you know, Australia.

593
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 4: It's not that, you know, it's not that dangerous, it's

594
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 4: not that you know, scary. I mean, it's not Chicago,

595
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 4: it's not Canada. But I think you have to really

596
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 4: imagine crime around the world as a kind of Bell

597
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 4: curve in different countries, and you know, at the top end,

598
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:16,439
Speaker 4: when you're at the deepest and at deepest levels, it's

599
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 4: as bad as it is everywhere else in the world.

600
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 4: If you fuck up, you're going to get shot, You're

601
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,399
Speaker 4: going to get killed. Like that's just the way it is.

602
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 3: So over all remains the same, doesn't it.

603
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, that middle, of course, Melbourne is not a crazy

604
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 4: violent place in that middle section of the Bell curve,

605
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 4: but at the end it's the same everywhere else. It's

606
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 4: the same as any other country. You rob the wrong person,

607
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 4: one person gets paranoid thinking you're going to knock them,

608
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 4: They're going to come after you, like, and there's you know,

609
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 4: these people do not count to ten. It's you know,

610
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 4: it's they're going to just they're going to do yeah.

611
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 4: And so there was like a cumulative effect where in

612
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 4: the space of maybe two or three years, it was

613
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 4: probably five or six people that I knew intimately were killed,

614
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 4: and you know, I couldn't handle that. I've met commandos

615
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 4: and sas guys and stuff like that, and I mean

616
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 4: they didn't even lose five of their mates in one

617
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 4: or two years, like they lost a lot of mates.

618
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 4: But it really messes with your head and you hit

619
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 4: a point where you're like, you know, my one of

620
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,839
Speaker 4: my best friends was mishandling a firearm and you know

621
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 4: he was you know, I was I had to bury him,

622
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,439
Speaker 4: you know, like he was. And then you're standing over

623
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 4: this grave and you're you know, they're lowering the coffin

624
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 4: and you're throwing doing it, and you're thinking, what the

625
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 4: fuck is this about? What is this about? Like we're

626
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 4: in our twenties, like, well, why have I been to

627
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 4: so many of these funerals? Like what are we doing?

628
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 4: And what is this thing that we're kind of enchanted by,

629
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 4: a spellbound by or obsessed with and revealed itself to

630
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,360
Speaker 4: me that this is all just smoking mirror. It's like

631
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 4: this code doesn't exist, like nobody actually believed Yeah, yeah,

632
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 4: nobody believes in that shit, Like it's it's just the

633
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 4: crash dummies that believe in it, Like the that there's

634
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 4: honor among thieves that all this stuff, you know, never

635
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 4: talk to police, you know, you do your time and

636
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,399
Speaker 4: all this stuff, and then they all you find out

637
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 4: they're all talking to police. The people, they're all the

638
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 4: people that are you know, chatting and saying I wouldn't

639
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 4: cop that. I wouldn't you know, when when you've been

640
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 4: slighted or someone's wrong, they're trying to motivate you and

641
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 4: do something. They say I wouldn't cop that. Fucking course

642
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 4: you would cop that. You cop whatever whatever you know

643
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 4: we tell you to do, you'd cop that. And here

644
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 4: you are telling this guy to do something, and then

645
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:43,959
Speaker 4: of course they do it and do ten years in jail.

646
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 4: And that the book that was chirping away in his ears,

647
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 4: not even there to visit him or put money in

648
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 4: his bank account, you know what I mean.

649
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 3: So it's like, get your head out your ass, you.

650
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 4: Know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And so but that that

651
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 4: really damaged me, and yeah, I had to I had

652
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 4: to help it. It all kind of crashed on me,

653
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 4: and I had this moment of realization where I was like,

654
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 4: I actually don't Oh, it's anyone to do anything in

655
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 4: this and I don't have to be part of this

656
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:16,359
Speaker 4: anymore that I don't, I can just stop. I don't

657
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 4: have to be with these people. But I knew I

658
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 4: had to make a radical move and actually cut contact.

659
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 4: You can't be one foot in, like you have to

660
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 4: be kind of one yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's either you're

661
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 4: in or you're out. And it was really cold because

662
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 4: there was a lot of people I loved in that

663
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 4: in that world that I had to cut ties with.

664
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 4: And even those people they're dead now, like do you

665
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 4: know what I mean? Like, or they're doing really long

666
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 4: bids in jail.

667
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:48,879
Speaker 2: And it's it's also one of those as well. It's

668
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 2: not not just change that was that's needed. It's drastic change,

669
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 2: you know, in a situation like that, it's got to

670
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,919
Speaker 2: be drastic. And when I mean drastic to the point

671
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:02,320
Speaker 2: of maybe moving location off to everyone that's in that

672
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 2: organization or that that's around, even if you love them

673
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 2: and if you're great friends with them, it's like, no,

674
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,479
Speaker 2: drastic change needs to happen in order for something good

675
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 2: to come of it.

676
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:13,919
Speaker 4: I got to the point where I was like, would

677
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 4: you be happy being that young boy on that school

678
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 4: yard being bullied, having oranges thrown at your head? Or whatever.

679
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 4: Fucking ies. I'd rather be that boy than do this

680
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 4: shit and you know, drag my mates through hell.

681
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 3: And there's the Australian Yeah.

682
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, do you know what I mean? Like like

683
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 4: I would rather be that that kid than you know,

684
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 4: create these kind of cycles of destruction and you know,

685
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 4: recidivism and like just dragging all my people, because it's

686
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 4: my people that go down with me. It's not just me,

687
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 4: Like I'm dragging my cousins in. I'll drag Like if

688
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 4: someone's got a drum with me, they've got to go

689
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 4: to my family's house. They're going to do this, do

690
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 4: you know what I mean? Like it's I had to

691
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 4: shoulder that and it was already too late, Like I

692
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 4: came to that realization too late.

693
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,919
Speaker 2: And so you make this drategic change and it's quite

694
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 2: the segue.

695
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 3: How did that feel?

696
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 4: Yeah? Well, initially I wanted to I studied psychology and

697
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 4: wanted to literally work as kind of a counselor and

698
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 4: in prisons and to try and actually help rehabilitate people

699
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 4: so that they don't go back to that life when

700
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 4: they leave, because the receiptivism rates are so high, and

701
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 4: I thought that would be something purposeful that I could

702
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 4: actually commit my life to. But then I got I

703
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:36,320
Speaker 4: met a bunch of editors and stuff through this friend

704
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 4: of mine, and I began writing and got into journalism,

705
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 4: and I actually thought, well, actually, no, it's about presenting

706
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,840
Speaker 4: this world for what it is, bare knuckles, and telling

707
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 4: these young kids that it's not. It's not what's in

708
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 4: the music videos and if your favorite app music video,

709
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 4: it's not. You know, they're giving you, you know, they're

710
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 4: giving you the shallow venier of the kind of porcelain

711
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 4: veneer of what this lifestyle actually does. It actually just

712
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 4: you know, people robbing, Yeah, your mates robbing, Yeah, your

713
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 4: mates tell them ONNYA. You know, you can't trust anyone.

714
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 4: People are going to get Yeah, you're going to get bashed,

715
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 4: You're going to get shot, you know, and you're on

716
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 4: your own. So you're better off on your own just

717
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,879
Speaker 4: actually partaking your life and contributing to society rather than

718
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 4: being another statistic which is a cliche. But you know,

719
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 4: if you want, if it's a double sided coin and

720
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 4: the option is you know, being in the streets forever

721
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 4: or choosing life. I know what I'm going to be

722
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 4: doing on choosing life.

723
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 2: Every single time now that you're you do all this,

724
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 2: how interesting is it to be an investigated journalist? And

725
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 2: if anyone can tell that story and get in and

726
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 2: show people, actually, this is how bad it is and

727
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 2: you know, do not get involved, it's you.

728
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 4: Well, it was two things. It was that, but it

729
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 4: was also about showing the public that these people that

730
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 4: you're reading about are not just you know, they're not

731
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 4: just the criminals that they made out to be. That

732
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 4: actually they've lived whole lives and there's a lot of

733
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 4: decisions that led up to that they made throughout their life,

734
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 4: and a lot of kind of social fractures around them

735
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 4: that led to their decision making that made them commit

736
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 4: the crime. Like, my whole thing was don't understand and

737
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 4: trying to illustrate the criminal by the crime that they've committed.

738
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 4: Try to understand them for everything that they've done up

739
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 4: until the point that's led them to the crime. And

740
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:39,919
Speaker 4: it was really about empathizing with people, not sanitizing what

741
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 4: they've done. And so I felt like again like I

742
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 4: go back to like media representation in the way that

743
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 4: people are perceived. I think what I really wanted to

744
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 4: do was I felt like journal crime reporters had been

745
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 4: captured by police narratives because they were relying on police

746
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 4: because criminals wouldn't talk to them. And the one thing

747
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 4: that I could do was actually get some criminals to

748
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 4: talk and actually explain the rationale and that things are

749
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 4: a lot more complex than they're they're they're let to believe.

750
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 4: And so yeah, that's.

751
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 3: What it is as well.

752
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,399
Speaker 2: The things are a lot more complex than than what

753
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 2: the media portray and what the you know, the media

754
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:21,919
Speaker 2: put out there.

755
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 4: Well, you wouldn't know this firsthand. You know, you experienced

756
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 4: them and like you there you had, you had all

757
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 4: those reports written about you, and you didn't have an

758
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 4: opportunity or you do have an opportunity now, but think about.

759
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 2: All, do you, because well you do, But you know

760
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 2: it's only because I'm persistent, like yourself, really, you know,

761
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 2: getting getting the message out there and educating people in

762
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 2: that way.

763
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 3: But it's hard.

764
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,720
Speaker 2: It's hard to you know, once once the media portray

765
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,439
Speaker 2: you a certain way or you know, like you said,

766
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 2: the complexity of what actually happens underneath, people swallow that

767
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 2: stuff up, don't they. They go, well, they brand you

768
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 2: with it, and like you said, they tire you with

769
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 2: that brush and all of a sudden, and sometimes I'm

770
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 2: similar Sometimes I think, but I might as well just

771
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 2: be that person, even though I'm not that person exactly,

772
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 2: I might.

773
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 3: As well just be it.

774
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 4: But again, that's why it's dangerous. That's why that reporting

775
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 4: is dangerous. It's not it's not actually just the theory,

776
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:25,800
Speaker 4: like we're not actually talking about things in theory that

777
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 4: this has real life consequences. I've seen people shoot each

778
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,760
Speaker 4: other over stuff they've read in the papers that wasn't

779
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 4: necessarily true.

780
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:35,320
Speaker 3: And also take their lives.

781
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:40,320
Speaker 2: Exactly in the UK, they have taken their lives because

782
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:45,280
Speaker 2: you know, they've been tarnished trial by media. Nothing formal

783
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 2: or nothing legal has come out of it, but it's

784
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 2: just trial by media. They've read a bit of paper,

785
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, the whole world's against you, and

786
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 2: it's too much for people.

787
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 3: It's too much.

788
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 4: You have this crazy thing in Australia where journalists are

789
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 4: crying about defamation laws, and I agree, you know, defamation

790
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 4: laws might be slightly lenient to super powerful people, but

791
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 4: what they never fucking talk about is all of the

792
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 4: people who don't have access to litigation and lawyers that

793
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 4: they can talk about hook line and sinker and who

794
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 4: never get an opportunity, those working class people, the crooks,

795
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:24,720
Speaker 4: the criminals, people who've been wrongly accused. They can't afford

796
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 4: fifty thousand dollars a day in litigation, so they just

797
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 4: have to swallow this image that's being portrayed.

798
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 2: It's one sided image because they haven't haven't got the

799
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 2: facilities or they know how to tell their to teil

800
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 2: their side or it tends to get it out to

801
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:39,720
Speaker 2: the masses.

802
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 4: And sometimes it's just the charge if they don't even

803
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 4: follow it up to sentencing. So you have someone who's

804
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 4: been charged with an offense who gets front page treatment

805
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 4: and then he beats the charges and sentencing and he

806
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 4: gets nothing.

807
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 2: So, you know, and then you're working towards that you

808
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:58,799
Speaker 2: is that one of your is that you say, that's

809
00:44:58,800 --> 00:44:59,760
Speaker 2: my ambition.

810
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 3: Motivations to in why you do what you do?

811
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 4: Now, definitely, I think that's what inspires me is to

812
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:09,919
Speaker 4: kind of reef. I think the thing that I can

813
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 4: contribute is to reimagine crime reporting and in doing so,

814
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 4: I mean, this is very idealistic, but in doing so,

815
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 4: maybe it changes the public perception and maybe influences policy.

816
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,319
Speaker 4: And they reframe the way that they look at, you know,

817
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 4: punishing people rather than actually rehabilitating them and trying to

818
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 4: figure out what the kind of social issues are that

819
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 4: are inspiring these crimes, rather than you know, just locking

820
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 4: people up. Like why kids joining our motorcycle groups? Why

821
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 4: are these outlaw motorcycle groups? You know, where are they

822
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 4: coming from in society? What's what's actually generating these kinds

823
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 4: of organized have.

824
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 3: Been drawn to it?

825
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:56,359
Speaker 4: You know, yeah, yeah, yeah, And how can we think

826
00:45:56,360 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 4: about those issues and disentangle that and kind of measures

827
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,359
Speaker 4: in place that move kids away from that. I think

828
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 4: that that's the most interesting thing in the most you know,

829
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 4: if I'm balancing your books, it's the thing that I

830
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:14,319
Speaker 4: hope to contribute in some idealistic social justice warrior kind

831
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 4: of fashion.

832
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 2: That you certainly know, mate, And adjusting to such a

833
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 2: different way of life, how has that been.

834
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 4: In that world? I was somebody, you know, and then

835
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 4: you kind of nobody, and you feel you have to

836
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 4: adjust around the way that people can disrespect yours things

837
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 4: that you perceive to be disrespect You just kind of

838
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 4: have to wear all that kind of stuff, and that

839
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 4: takes a bit of adjusting to, and you know, obviously

840
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 4: you're making a certain amount of money, you're partying, you're

841
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 4: having fun, you feel like a rock star, or you're

842
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 4: imitating this kind of rock star lifestyle. That's actually, like

843
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 4: you said, it's actually just a master's hiding all this

844
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 4: other stuff that you're dealing with inside your head. But

845
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:01,839
Speaker 4: sometimes you miss you miss all that. But I would

846
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 4: never I would never have it any other way. You know.

847
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 4: I'm so happy for where I'm at in my life

848
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 4: right now, and I feel good every morning I wake

849
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 4: up and I don't have to look behind my shoulder.

850
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 4: I can go to any restaurant or any any bar,

851
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 4: or any club that I want to go to without thinking, oh, man,

852
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:19,399
Speaker 4: is it going to get a bit tense here? Who's

853
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 4: going to be you know? Do you know what I mean?

854
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:25,439
Speaker 4: I don't have to really, I don't have to work. Yeah, yeah,

855
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:27,839
Speaker 4: you don't have to. You don't have to second guess

856
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 4: the police are tap my phone, all this sort of stuff.

857
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 4: You don't, you know, they're bugs in my car, all

858
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 4: of this stuff. You can just be free, you can

859
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,840
Speaker 4: just be you just do your bit and be happy

860
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 4: and you know, look after the ones that will be

861
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 4: there for you to the end.

862
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 2: And have you re established or refound your identity you know,

863
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:50,240
Speaker 2: who is mamood.

864
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 4: I think it's like this, you know, because of what

865
00:47:57,520 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 4: might have happened, what happened to me when I was young.

866
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 4: I think I'm just constantly reconstructing and diverting and becoming

867
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 4: this different person. And I think that's a way that

868
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,360
Speaker 4: helps me deal with who I was in the past

869
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 4: and kind of suppressed that in some way. I haven't

870
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 4: reverted back to any identity. I think I'm just constantly

871
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:20,479
Speaker 4: constructing your identities and kind of distracting myself with lots

872
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:24,840
Speaker 4: of work and trying to contribute in the most positive way.

873
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 2: And going back to head game. Final question for you, Malud,

874
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 2: what has your experience taught you about resilience.

875
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 4: I think you just have to back yourself in. I

876
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 4: think that's all it's taught me is always like believing

877
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 4: in yourself and knowing that no matter how how much

878
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:51,760
Speaker 4: noise there is, you can always the decisions, always yours,

879
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 4: and you can just walk away. I think that's the

880
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 4: most powerful thing for me in terms of resilience, is

881
00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 4: that you are the owner of your decisions and how

882
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 4: much noise there is and how much bullshit. There is

883
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 4: out there of people saying you have to do this,

884
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 4: you have you actually don't have to do nothing. You

885
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:10,839
Speaker 4: just be yourself and make your own decisions and that's

886
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 4: that and that's it. You know, No, I've done that.

887
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:15,919
Speaker 4: It's worked for me, mate.

888
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:19,279
Speaker 2: I've loved this conversation. Loads of common ground, loads in

889
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 2: common from two people that had two completely separate careers.

890
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been fascinating, mate.

891
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,839
Speaker 2: Thank you for coming on Risk gentlemen, may keep doing

892
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:34,280
Speaker 2: what you're doing. Thanks so much for joining me on Headgame.

893
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 2: If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you're subscribed so

894
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 2: you don't miss any of our incredible stories and leave

895
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 2: me a review wherever you're listening, I'm at Middleton.

896
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 3: Catch you again next time.