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Speaker 1: Welcome to Fear and Greed Sunday feature Michael Thompson. Now,

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Speaker 1: if you're in business, whether it's large or small, and

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Speaker 1: today's interview is absolutely a must listen because this is

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Speaker 1: a guide to dealing with a crisis. Whether it's something

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Speaker 1: blowing up on social media or the front page of

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Speaker 1: the newspaper we've been hit by a cyber attack, or

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Speaker 1: shareholders and demanding answers over something. This interview covers it all.

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Speaker 1: It is from twenty twenty three when Sean Aylmer spoke

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Speaker 1: with Carden Calder, the co founder of blue Chip Communication.

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Speaker 1: It is a great one. I hope you enjoy it.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean Almam.

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Speaker 2: This year has tossed up some major crises for Australian businesses.

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Speaker 2: Think of the ongoing Sagret, PwC, Quantus's pr nightmare, optist

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Speaker 2: At outage. Of course, all of these show the importance

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Speaker 2: of communications in a crisis. I wanted today to look

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Speaker 2: at what to do and what not to do when

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Speaker 2: things go wrong in business. Carden Calder is the co

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Speaker 2: founder of financial communication group blue Chip Communication, which is

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Speaker 2: a great supporter of this podcast card and welcome to

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Speaker 2: Fear and Greed.

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Speaker 3: Hi Sean, thank you for having me here.

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Speaker 2: So what do you do when something crazy goes on

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Speaker 2: and the client rings you and says, fix it? Oh,

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Speaker 2: how do you go from there?

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Speaker 3: I take a very long pause. I ask a lot

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Speaker 3: of questions, right, and then I wish they'd called me

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Speaker 3: six months or six years earlier.

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Speaker 2: Well, actually, let's get into it there. I mean, when

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Speaker 2: there is a crisis, is it often the pointing end

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Speaker 2: that you get involved, not through your want, through the

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Speaker 2: client's want, or is it generally something that's been building up?

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Speaker 3: Excellent question. I think almost every crisis I've ever worked

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Speaker 3: on is something that could have been predicted and that

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Speaker 3: had a relatively long gestation period. Not always true, you know,

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Speaker 3: there are events sometimes that come across us, like say

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Speaker 3: a nine to eleven. If you're a business, nine to

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Speaker 3: eleven really felt like it came out of the blue.

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Speaker 3: Perhaps not a few were a sovereign nation, but many,

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Speaker 3: many times we get a call from a client, a

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Speaker 3: CEO or a chamman who thinks they got hit blindsided

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Speaker 3: by something and it came out of the blue. But

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Speaker 3: what we see is that the beginning of that issue

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Speaker 3: happened a long time earlier, and the opportunity to intervene

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Speaker 3: and preempt was a long time earlier. So we do

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Speaker 3: our best when the ambulance doores open, and sometimes you

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Speaker 3: can really turn it around for a client. In fact,

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Speaker 3: probably more often than I would have thought at the

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Speaker 3: beginning of my profession.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so is there a one size fits all approach

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Speaker 2: to crisis communications when it does happen?

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Speaker 3: There are certainly some general principles. I'm very wary of

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Speaker 3: absoluteses in this because I think there are a lot

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Speaker 3: of phrases thrown around. Some of them are helpful, some

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Speaker 3: of them are not. I think it's been really interesting

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Speaker 3: to watch media commentate on crisis management with regards to

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Speaker 3: OPTUS because they've nailed some of the formula and some

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Speaker 3: of the things that journals have been talking about absolutely right.

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Speaker 3: And they're things like show up and lead. You know,

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Speaker 3: if I were to pick maybe three or four things

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Speaker 3: that I think you really do have to get right

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Speaker 3: almost every time, then showing up and leading means being

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Speaker 3: fully transparent. It's been credible. You don't have to have

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Speaker 3: all the answers, but you do have to show you're

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Speaker 3: prepared to be out in front amid uncertainty. Leading in

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Speaker 3: inverted commas, I would argue, is often simply just three things.

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Speaker 3: In a crisis, it's taking charge of the response, even

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Speaker 3: if you don't quite know where that's hitded and you

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Speaker 3: don't when it starts if you're the CEO or the

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Speaker 3: management team. So first of all, you have to be

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Speaker 3: seen to be in charge, and you have to actually

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Speaker 3: be in charge. You don't have to be pulling the leavers,

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Speaker 3: but you have to be fronting the issue. Secondly, you

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Speaker 3: have to be visible, and thirdly you have to communicate.

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Speaker 3: I know those things sound really basic, but it's really

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Speaker 3: easy to lose sight of them when you're stressed. Your

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Speaker 3: management team don't know what to do, and you don't

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Speaker 3: know how the story is going to end.

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Speaker 2: Okay, And it's a good point that because sometimes you

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Speaker 2: won't or the CEO won't have the answer, but they've

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Speaker 2: still got to turn up.

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Speaker 3: Is that what you're saying exactly exactly, and the reason

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Speaker 3: they have to turn up is when things go wrong,

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Speaker 3: leadership matters more than any other time. It's really interesting.

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Speaker 3: I found out about sort of twenty three years ago

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Speaker 3: I was working for an organization where everything was going

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Speaker 3: to hell and people like you Sean were drilling holes

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Speaker 3: in US, and I thought, surely the CEO and chairman's

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Speaker 3: reputation are determining all the trouble that we're having, and

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Speaker 3: their behavior is determining our reputation. So we're digging to

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Speaker 3: find the evidence, the actual stats behind what drives reputation,

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Speaker 3: and I found that interestingly, leadership does not drive reputation

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Speaker 3: in business as usual, but when it does drive reputation

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Speaker 3: and trust is in a crisis. So it's particularly important

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Speaker 3: in a crisis that you lead, that you communicate, that

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Speaker 3: you get out. You lead the story is another one

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Speaker 3: of the basic principles and one that people are really

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Speaker 3: talking about at the moment. You might call it control

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Speaker 3: the narrative, but I think that's a bit patronizing. If

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Speaker 3: you're Australian, you can't really control the story, but you

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Speaker 3: can certainly steer it, and if you don't, others will.

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Speaker 3: So that's another one of those things that you can

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Speaker 3: go back to and say, well, what are the basic principles?

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Speaker 3: Show up and lead, lead the story, be in the story,

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Speaker 3: be directing it. And there are a few other things

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Speaker 3: as well, which is you've got to put people first,

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Speaker 3: and you have to put particularly people you've hurt first,

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Speaker 3: and you have to demonstrate you doing something tangible about it.

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Speaker 3: And they're the things that no matter, no matter what's

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Speaker 3: going on, they're sort of touchstones for leaders in the

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Speaker 3: toughest times.

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Speaker 2: Stay with me, Carden, we'll be back in a minute.

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Speaker 2: I'm speaking to card and Call, the co founder of

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Speaker 2: blue Chip Communication. What about the case of OPTAs So,

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure whether a cyber hack is a left

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Speaker 2: field event. In a sense it is, and then the

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Speaker 2: way they handle that, and then they had the outage

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Speaker 2: in the past couple of weeks, they kind of didn't

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Speaker 2: stand a chance after this latest outage simply because the

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Speaker 2: media remembered twelve months earlier. Does this compounding effect? I mean,

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Speaker 2: the come Off Bank had it in their banking crisis

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Speaker 2: and their CEO ended up leaving. In fact, a lot

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Speaker 2: of the banks had it and CEOs ended up leaving

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Speaker 2: as a result of it. Is it hard once you've

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Speaker 2: kind of lost control of it, and particularly in Optice's case,

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Speaker 2: two months later, another big issue is it hard to

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Speaker 2: grab control back?

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Speaker 3: It is, but it's not impossible. And there are two

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Speaker 3: things that you have on your side. One is simply time.

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Speaker 3: You know, the more days, months, years that pass from

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Speaker 3: a problem, the more memories fade. But the other thing

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Speaker 3: that is on your side is the opportunity to get

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Speaker 3: it right next time, because you've had this salient, searing,

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Speaker 3: painful lesson in how not to get it right. So

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Speaker 3: one of the things I find particularly tricky about Optus

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Speaker 3: and to some extent Quantus, although I think that's a

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Speaker 3: bit of a different situation, is Optus have had one

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Speaker 3: of the best practice runs any organization could have for

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Speaker 3: crisis management. They had a genuine crisis which was a

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Speaker 3: very predictable operational issue caused by cybercriminal behavior. Any board

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Speaker 3: who isn't predicting and planning and preparing and stress testing

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Speaker 3: their management team for cyber criminal behavior that causes cataclysmic

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Speaker 3: events in their business possibly needs to have a think

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Speaker 3: about doing it. So Optus have had this fantastic practice

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Speaker 3: running a year ago which did not go well for them,

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Speaker 3: but which gave them a perfect opportunity to learn and

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Speaker 3: get better through practice. And yet here we are a

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Speaker 3: year later and they haven't done it. And I say

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Speaker 3: that also with a little bit of a caution because

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Speaker 3: I really don't like piling in on a CEO or

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Speaker 3: a management team who are already getting kicked by everybody else.

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Speaker 3: So I think it's easy from the outside, and I've

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Speaker 3: been on the inside a lot. It's easy from the

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Speaker 3: outside to be an expert. It's a little bit trickier

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Speaker 3: when you're the person in the glare of the spotlight.

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Speaker 3: But I think the more times you've been challenged, the

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Speaker 3: better you should get at it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So let's lot b at Quantas because that wasn't

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Speaker 2: so much. I mean, it was very CEO focused, but

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Speaker 2: it was kind of fairly broad range of issues. Airfares,

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Speaker 2: for example, lost baggage, your legal action over tickets being

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Speaker 2: sold in canceled flights. What do you make the way

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Speaker 2: the airline has handled that crisis, which seem to be

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Speaker 2: a rolling crisis.

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Speaker 3: Very good point. It is a rolling crisis. The thing

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Speaker 3: about Quantus that I find interesting is that they are

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Speaker 3: one of our most loved brands as a country. They

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Speaker 3: are the place that we feel like home. You get

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Speaker 3: on that plane when you're coming home and you hear

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Speaker 3: the Australian accent and it's like, oh, you know, my

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Speaker 3: shoulders dropped. Australians have such affection for this one hundred

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Speaker 3: and two year old brand, but that's as much of

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Speaker 3: a challenge as it is an opportunity. It makes your

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Speaker 3: brand very resilient and your reputation very resilient. So if

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Speaker 3: we think about that sort of Coca Cola CEO analogy

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Speaker 3: of the red ball, that for the ball that bounces

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Speaker 3: when you drop it, or the glass ball, Quantus has

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Speaker 3: gone from being the ball that bounces when it's dropped,

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Speaker 3: Quantus's reputation to being the glass ball that no longer bounces.

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Speaker 3: And the reason for that is they put themselves out

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Speaker 3: in the cold so long if you freeze a rubber ball,

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Speaker 3: it will shatter when you drop it. That's where Quantus

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Speaker 3: are now, and they did not get there overnight. They

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Speaker 3: put themselves in Siberia through a series of actions which

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Speaker 3: were completely at odds with what people expected of them.

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Speaker 3: So the interesting thing about Quantus is this idea of

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Speaker 3: expectation frames, where we have an expectation of leaders of brands,

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Speaker 3: particularly brands we know well, and then we will always

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Speaker 3: judge that brand against our expectations. And the expectations are

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Speaker 3: what the brand or the business or the leadership have

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Speaker 3: set for themselves because it's all the stuff they did

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Speaker 3: for the last one hundred and two years. So Quantus's

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Speaker 3: biggest issue right now is not what people think of them.

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Speaker 3: It's the fact that they're behaving differently to the way

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Speaker 3: that they have behaved on a long term average. And

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Speaker 3: so we're all going, hang in a minute, how come

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Speaker 3: you've changed? Why aren't you doing what you used to do?

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Speaker 2: So how hard is to rebuild a corporate reputation like

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Speaker 2: quantuses once it's damaged.

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Speaker 3: I think that's a little bit like how many psychiatrists

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Speaker 3: does it take to change a light bulb. It might

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Speaker 3: be very expensive, might take a long period of time,

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Speaker 3: but the light bulb has to want to change. The

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Speaker 3: organization has to want to change. I think rebuilding reputations

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Speaker 3: is easier than most people think it is, and we

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Speaker 3: know because we've done it a number of times. Your

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Speaker 3: audiences and your customers and your investors' customers, people are

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Speaker 3: remarkably forgiving if you demonstrate humility, if you become a

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Speaker 3: student of the process of how do I rebuild my reputation,

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Speaker 3: and if you genuinely want to be better for the

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Speaker 3: people you serve, But The biggest barrier I see to

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Speaker 3: that happening is two things. One is organizations, boards and

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Speaker 3: management teams being humbled enough to listen to the bad

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Speaker 3: stuff people are saying about them and to really understand

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Speaker 3: their expectations and not get too offended by that, like

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Speaker 3: genuinely openly listening, and then secondly genuinely wanting to rebuild

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Speaker 3: and putting the effort in. You know, it can be done,

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Speaker 3: but it takes it often takes quite a long period

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Speaker 3: of time. It takes significant effort and a remarkable degree

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Speaker 3: of humility.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, So I mean talking about big businesses, is

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Speaker 2: it the same for small businesses? It might be my

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Speaker 2: coffee that I go to every In fact, I told

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Speaker 2: Michael Thompson on the show, I was very upset with

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Speaker 2: my coffee shop because I went there one morning it

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Speaker 2: was the day of the office outage. I said, look,

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Speaker 2: I'll come back with cash in half an hour, and

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Speaker 2: I go there every day. They wouldn't allow me just

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Speaker 2: to take the coffee and then come back, so I

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Speaker 2: haven't been back there since. So it's kind of the

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Speaker 2: same deal in a sense. How do small businesses will

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Speaker 2: handle the crisis to begin with? And then if they

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Speaker 2: are damaged, what do they do?

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Speaker 3: Ouch? I feel sorry for your coffee shops. I know

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Speaker 3: what you mean. You know again, your expectation in that

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Speaker 3: moment was you know me, and you trust me I

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Speaker 3: will do the right thing, And they've misjudged what you

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Speaker 3: expected of them and they haven't done it. So I

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Speaker 3: think it's harder for small businesses. You're a business. I'm

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Speaker 3: a business. I find this quite difficult. You know. Often

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Speaker 3: I'm giving big businesses advice and I'm thinking, gee, I'm

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Speaker 3: not doing that myself. I think the things that can help,

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Speaker 3: whether you're a soul trader or just a few people,

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Speaker 3: the things that can help you are giving some proper

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Speaker 3: thought to what would break us. So for any business,

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Speaker 3: let's say you are a retail trader, like your coffee shop,

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Speaker 3: it's very predictable that you'll have a payments system failure

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Speaker 3: at some point and you won't be able to take

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Speaker 3: people's money electronically. So if you just you know, three

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Speaker 3: glasses of wine or whatever your favorite drink is, or

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Speaker 3: go for a walk and apply your mind to all

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Speaker 3: the shit that might go wrong, and then just have

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Speaker 3: a bit of a think about. Okay, three big things

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Speaker 3: that might go wrong for us, that would end our

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Speaker 3: business of these things. And here is the basic response

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Speaker 3: I would have to those you know, that coffee shop,

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Speaker 3: and I might have had like a raffle ticket book

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Speaker 3: under the counter and given you a ticket and going yeah,

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Speaker 3: bring this back and pay and I'll remember. And he

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Speaker 3: would have had the stub in it. You know, I'm

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Speaker 3: making that up. But there are ways you can.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, but it's very pragmatic. Yeah, advice Carden. Yeah, Cardin,

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Speaker 2: thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me, Sean It it's great to

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Speaker 3: talk to you.

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Speaker 2: That was card and Call, the co founder of blue

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Speaker 2: Chip Communication, which is a supporter of this podcast. This

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Speaker 2: is the Fear and Greed Business Interview. Join us every

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Speaker 2: morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's

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Speaker 2: best busines this podcast. I'm seanelma Enjoy your day.

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Speaker 3: M