Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never
Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys staid,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Policing is
Speaker 1: acknowledged for being a rewarding but tough way to earn
Speaker 1: a living. Today's guests, Caroline Ohare, spent over forty years
Speaker 1: in New South Wales Police, which is pretty amazing feat
Speaker 1: in its own right. She retired only last year after
Speaker 1: an impressive and varied career. Today, she's going to talk
Speaker 1: to us about her career in uniform and as a
Speaker 1: detective working as a negotiator, counter terrorist investigator and also
Speaker 1: indignitory protection. She's also a police prosecutor and is a
Speaker 1: qualified solicitor. She worked in internal affairs and has made
Speaker 1: a significant contribution to policing across the country. We're going
Speaker 1: to hear from her today about heading up the negotiators
Speaker 1: team during the Kangy siege and the arrest of Ivan
Speaker 1: malatt Our. Career paths first crossed during the Sydney Olympics
Speaker 1: where I was doing close personal protection and she was
Speaker 1: the operations commander of dignitary Protection. Just to add to
Speaker 1: the pressure of that position, she was also six months
Speaker 1: pregnant at the time. She's a fun lady. Is he
Speaker 1: going to find out? Who was very respected and liked
Speaker 1: throughout her career, as you expect of someone who has
Speaker 1: spent forty years as a cop. She's some amazing stories
Speaker 1: and today we're lucky to have her here in the
Speaker 1: studio sharing those stories with us. Caroline O'Hare, welcome to
Speaker 1: our Catchkillers.
Speaker 2: Thank you. Is this when I get a caution or.
Speaker 1: Now I've given that, I've let that life go. Clearly
Speaker 1: you haven't, but I could caution, you know, I do
Speaker 1: miss throwing out the caution you're not the bliged to
Speaker 1: say anything unless you wish to do so, but whatever
Speaker 1: you say may later be used in evidence. Do you agree?
Speaker 2: I agree? I agree? I actually agree.
Speaker 1: Well, there say whatever we say now we can use
Speaker 1: that as evidence. It's funny that things like that just
Speaker 1: getting better than your brain, doesn't it Just you can
Speaker 1: switch straight back into that mode. Absolutely, even though you've
Speaker 1: been out of it for a long time. So, how's
Speaker 1: husband Rick going?
Speaker 2: He's pretty good. He's actually still working.
Speaker 1: That is long. He's done a long since.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's nearly forty four years. And but you know,
Speaker 2: he's enjoying what he's doing. He's got one project he
Speaker 2: wants to finish. Yeah, and then I think he'll pull
Speaker 2: the pin. But yeah, he's going really well.
Speaker 1: Well. I first met Rick when he was a team lead.
Speaker 1: They're in the tactical Operations unit and I was doing
Speaker 1: some comments there, so it would have been a pretty
Speaker 1: interesting household with you guys. There are you working as
Speaker 1: a negotiator and him dressed in his black overalls with
Speaker 1: all the weapons and ready to go and then rest
Speaker 1: the defenders after you've been speaking to them.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and it was during our courtship.
Speaker 1: Really you fell in love at the siege? Well, well, kinder, yeah, actually,
Speaker 1: now you should have been concentrating on working you too,
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 2: But I do remember one job we went to where
Speaker 2: I was the team leader of the negotiators and Rick
Speaker 2: was the senior field supervisor for the tactical team. And
Speaker 2: it was a job at Glebe actually, and we're trying
Speaker 2: to get a guy out. I forget what the issue was,
Speaker 2: but and I said to Rick, look, I don't think
Speaker 2: we're going to negotiate this guy out. I think it's
Speaker 2: going to have to be a tactical option. And he said, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: I think you can keep negotiating. And I said, no,
Speaker 2: I don't think so. And this conversation was going on
Speaker 2: over the back channel of the tou and all the
Speaker 2: guys and all the negotiows go, are they having a domestic.
Speaker 1: That is funny, just to add to the pressure and
Speaker 1: the drama of the seed, exactly, a little bit of
Speaker 1: domestic conflict always liven is a place up, Absolutely very funny.
Speaker 1: You joined the police in nineteen eighty one, Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: it was a different world back then.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure was. First of all, I was a junior trainee,
Speaker 2: which meant that I had my HSC. But I was
Speaker 2: too young to go to pass out. I was only eighteen.
Speaker 2: So I joined and went to Redfern, and after two
Speaker 2: weeks of you know, doing real book amendments and shoveling
Speaker 2: out hay in the sheds, they sent me to Petersham,
Speaker 2: which at that time was a punishment station. I later
Speaker 2: found out I didn't know what a punishment station was,
Speaker 2: but if you did something bad in the group, that's
Speaker 2: where you.
Speaker 1: You'd meet all types in the punishment stage.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it was a strange place.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine now. In prepping for the podcast,
Speaker 1: you sent me some stuff and I laughed at One
Speaker 1: of your early recollections of your early time in policing
Speaker 1: was cooking the prisoner's meals and basically and it wouldn't
Speaker 1: stand today's test of test of time with it. For
Speaker 1: some reason, the Police Social Fund had the contract to
Speaker 1: supply the prisoner's meals. Yes, you were cooking the meals
Speaker 1: and it was baked beans on toast for breakfast.
Speaker 2: Lunch and dinner. Yes, I was really shocked when they
Speaker 2: said you've got to cook the prisoner's meals and I said,
Speaker 2: but I don't know how to cook. I said, it
Speaker 2: doesn't matter. I don't have to worry about that. Just
Speaker 2: seed up the baker beans, some toast and a cup
Speaker 2: of tea and that's it. And I was like, oh, okay,
Speaker 2: and by the way, while you're there, go and put
Speaker 2: the flag up.
Speaker 1: That's right.
Speaker 2: I thought that was a bit of a joke. And
Speaker 2: I went out and the flag was going up and
Speaker 2: down the flagpole because I had no idea how to
Speaker 2: even do that. But yeah, prisoner's meals says poor old
Speaker 2: prisoners felt so.
Speaker 1: I felt sorry for him too, because invariably they'd be
Speaker 1: caught in the police station cells if the jails were full,
Speaker 1: or they're waiting to go to court, and they'd spent
Speaker 1: some time there. And I remember picking up prisoners meals
Speaker 1: and it was basically fish and chips or something for breakfast,
Speaker 1: lunch and lunch and dinner.
Speaker 2: So they should have come to Petersham.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I bet you they were really disappointed when they
Speaker 1: were released from the cells, missing your cooking.
Speaker 2: That's it.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, that's a strange introduction into policing. Just give
Speaker 1: us an overview of your policing career. Like forty years,
Speaker 1: forty one years, forty two, forty two years. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: it's a long long time.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And when I passed out from the academy at Redfern,
Speaker 2: I went to GDS at North Sydney for about twenty
Speaker 2: months and that was interesting because in those days we
Speaker 2: just had straight skirts. Our uniform was very restrictive. It
Speaker 2: was just straight skirts, blue stockings, blue flat ugly shoes
Speaker 2: and a little jacket with our go concealed underneath our
Speaker 2: uniform top so that people couldn't see it, because it
Speaker 2: was considered too confronting for the members of the public
Speaker 2: to see a gun. So all the guns were actually
Speaker 2: concealed within the holster for the men as well, and
Speaker 2: it was a cross draw holster, so you'd have to
Speaker 2: lift up the flap of the holster with your left
Speaker 2: hand if your right handed, pull the gun out with
Speaker 2: your right hand. And fire women had small guns because
Speaker 2: they were considered to have small hands, so we had.
Speaker 1: You just weren't tough enough to that's right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, five five shooter Smith and Wesson with five extra bullets,
Speaker 2: and handcuffs and a bat and a handbag.
Speaker 1: I don't remember that police issue handbags.
Speaker 2: Police issue handbags. My handbag stylish very they went with
Speaker 2: the shoes. Mine is actually in the police Armory little
Speaker 2: museum that my husband's put together because he's the commander
Speaker 2: of the armory. And every time I go in there
Speaker 2: and there's some probationary constable in there bringing a gun
Speaker 2: back or doing something, always that's my handbag. And that's
Speaker 2: when I first joined the police. They just look at
Speaker 2: me and think, oh, you poor thing.
Speaker 1: It seems like a lifetime ago, and like just what
Speaker 1: policings evolved to, like you only retired last year, But
Speaker 1: I remember we didn't have There was no computers when
Speaker 1: we first came. There was a what was a telex.
Speaker 2: Machine effects it was like yeah, it was a teles
Speaker 2: and it came out and lots of cops who listened
Speaker 2: to this would remember these. You type it up and
Speaker 2: it had come out on a tape, and then you
Speaker 2: put the tape back into the teles and hopefully didn't
Speaker 2: put it in upside down or back to front, because
Speaker 2: it all would come out.
Speaker 1: Some belfeathered walk in and walk over your telex tape
Speaker 1: and you had to retype the whole thing.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And we had Sylvester telephone boards, you know, the
Speaker 2: operator boards were the pulling pull out plugs and all
Speaker 2: that sort of stuff. No computers, no portable radios.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is hard, hard to comprehend, isn't it
Speaker 1: like it? I remember those switchboards because when you were
Speaker 1: a junior police officer, invariably you had station duty and
Speaker 1: I still remember you had to pull that lead out plug,
Speaker 1: that one in connect there, and it was just constant.
Speaker 1: I never thought I joined the police. I thought it
Speaker 1: was going to be an exciting adventure and here I
Speaker 1: am hornsby police station. Hello, can I help you? It
Speaker 1: just became yeah, and you put your receptionist's voice on.
Speaker 2: Yeah you did.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely couldn't help it. But yeah, different times. So
Speaker 1: just a quick overview of your career. You've worked in
Speaker 1: such a variety of areas, so talk us through that.
Speaker 2: Okay. So then in North Sydney, I went onto a
Speaker 2: list when I had about twenty month service. I had
Speaker 2: done a few jobs, a few sexual assault statements for
Speaker 2: the d's and they said to me, you're interested in
Speaker 2: playing clothes and I was. I was really interested. I
Speaker 2: wanted to you know, Yeah, that interested me a lot.
Speaker 2: So I was there for about twelve months and then
Speaker 2: the boss came to me. He said, I've got four women.
Speaker 2: Here's your transfer to the nappy squad, which was the
Speaker 2: juvenile crime squad at the CIB. Off you go, and
Speaker 2: so off I went. And it was really good opportunity
Speaker 2: because everything was indictable. All the matters went to the
Speaker 2: Supreme Court, the district court that was child a used
Speaker 2: child sexual assault. We helped and at that time people
Speaker 2: were just starting to come forward with complaining about historical
Speaker 2: sexual assaults from when they were children, so the workload
Speaker 2: was massive, so it was great learning opportunity. And then
Speaker 2: I went to Balmain Detective for about five years and
Speaker 2: worked at Ashfield and Annandale and bell Main and really
Speaker 2: enjoyed that. And then after that I went to the
Speaker 2: Special Branch.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, which was.
Speaker 2: A period of my career. I don't often talk about.
Speaker 1: No one talks about this one talks about because I'm
Speaker 1: very special. I think the name it just Yeah, I
Speaker 1: remember what the Special What do they do? They seem
Speaker 1: to do everything that no one else does.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, actually basically what it was was dictatory protection
Speaker 2: for high office holders and also counter terrorism intelligence and investigations.
Speaker 2: So he worked a lot in those days with Commonwealth
Speaker 2: intelligence agencies and also looking after you know, dictatory. So
Speaker 2: Bob Hawk was the Prime Minister and we take him
Speaker 2: out to the races and you know, all these different places,
Speaker 2: and he was so down to earth and so funny
Speaker 2: and loved the cops. People like that. The Governor General
Speaker 2: was Sinnini and Stephen and he'd arrive at the Corners
Speaker 2: jet base and you know, on Air Force one or
Speaker 2: whatever plane it was, and the door would open and
Speaker 2: galloping down the steps would be his labrador, which would
Speaker 2: go straight into the backseat of the Rolls Royce and
Speaker 2: we'd take him to you know, Admiralty House at Caribillity and.
Speaker 1: It was that the Special Branch. And yeah, if there
Speaker 1: was any issues that needed to let's say, be handled
Speaker 1: with discretion, yes, they were a special branch branch would
Speaker 1: come in. So they are interesting times.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there were really some interesting times. And I worked
Speaker 2: with some really good people there, John Garvey.
Speaker 1: I don't know, you know John Garvey reputation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we were kind of like the lock up squad.
Speaker 2: So if there are any lock ups, because we're both detectives
Speaker 2: and there are other people there too who did that
Speaker 2: as well. But I remember working with John Alt and yeah,
Speaker 2: he was fantastic. I learned so much from him.
Speaker 1: That would have opened your eyes up to the world too.
Speaker 1: So like you know, hanging out with a prime minister
Speaker 1: and doing things. It's eye opening, isn't it.
Speaker 2: It is? And I think the thing is too. In
Speaker 2: those days there was no internet, so if you wanted
Speaker 2: to know about the Palestine Liberation Organization, you actually had
Speaker 2: to research it in ways other than the Internet. So
Speaker 2: it was it was a different era of policing. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so it was good. It was really interesting. I loved
Speaker 2: I loved counter terrorism.
Speaker 1: And where did you go to from there?
Speaker 2: From there, I'm trying to remember. I went to Internal
Speaker 2: Affairs I think for about a year, and then I
Speaker 2: went to the Royal Commission into the Building industry.
Speaker 1: I tried. I tried to get into the Royal Commission
Speaker 1: into that that tried the strike force because I had
Speaker 1: worked in the building industry, but I was told I
Speaker 1: was pulled aside because my father was high up in
Speaker 1: the building industry and said, oh, I know there could
Speaker 1: be a conflict of interest.
Speaker 2: Oh really, wow, yeah it look it was really interesting
Speaker 2: and I met some really interesting people. Some really ruthless people,
Speaker 2: some really great people. But it was really an eye
Speaker 2: opener and I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the building industry back in those days, there was
Speaker 1: a lot going on in the building industry, and it
Speaker 1: was the fact that there was a commission into commission
Speaker 1: into it. It was important.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it was very political, but it was It was
Speaker 2: interesting and there was a lot of There was a
Speaker 2: lot of corruption from every facet involved in the building industry,
Speaker 2: from all sides. So yeah, it was good.
Speaker 1: I learned a lot actually, Okay, so where too? From there?
Speaker 2: After that, I went to the prosecutors. I became a
Speaker 2: prosecutor at Northwest Region and I loved prosecuting. I realized
Speaker 2: I knew nothing as a detective, and in between all
Speaker 2: of that, I became a negotiator as well, So I
Speaker 2: really and I did three years at Blacktown Court as
Speaker 2: a prosecutor. I work with really fantastic prosecutors, Dave Parcel,
Speaker 2: Steve McGrath, Like what they didn't know about the law
Speaker 2: was not worth knowing.
Speaker 1: Just those names. It brings back memories because I crossed
Speaker 1: pars with them during my career and they were very
Speaker 1: good at what they did.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was one guy, Trevor Osborne, and all the
Speaker 2: solicitors would come and ask him for advice, and I
Speaker 2: remember magistrate asked me to address on a particular piece
Speaker 2: at case law and he said, I'll speak to you
Speaker 2: after morning too. So I raced back and I said, Trevor,
Speaker 2: I don't know what I'm doing, what is it? And
Speaker 2: he said, well, I was the court constable on that
Speaker 2: case in nineteen seventy two were Rockdale, and and explained
Speaker 2: the whole thing like he was like an encyclopedia. So
Speaker 2: lucky to have those old guys who just knew everything in.
Speaker 1: The legal fraternity too. You had so much time on
Speaker 1: your feet in court because the prosecutors would handle a
Speaker 1: lot of matters and even the committal hearing's for in
Speaker 1: diatable offenses.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, it was fantastic, and it was really at Blacktown.
Speaker 2: It was kind of I called it meatball, kind of
Speaker 2: like surgery. It was like going in one door coming
Speaker 2: out another, and people had have domestics in the registrars
Speaker 2: call over and you'd you know, almost be locking up
Speaker 2: the people going to court for their matters because they're
Speaker 2: having punch ups in.
Speaker 1: The chaos of the chaos, yeah, but it was a
Speaker 1: good area to learn your skill set.
Speaker 2: To absolutely the flow on effect from Mount Druitt as
Speaker 2: well for custodies and all that sort of stuff. It
Speaker 2: was just constant, but it was a great learning experience
Speaker 2: and I loved it at Blacktown.
Speaker 1: I thought, even when I was giving evidence at the
Speaker 1: local court, like most of the latter part of my career,
Speaker 1: it was always at the Supreme Court, but I learnt
Speaker 1: my skills in the witness box at the lower court
Speaker 1: because it might only be for minor matters or relatively
Speaker 1: minor matters. But it was.
Speaker 2: Robust, absolutely, yeah, absolutely, no, It was really fantastic, and
Speaker 2: it's quite intimidating as a prosecutor to go in and
Speaker 2: you think, oh, you know, I'm up against this particular
Speaker 2: solicitener or whoever. And then sometimes I'd sit back and
Speaker 2: I think. I remember one day, I thought, I think
Speaker 2: I actually know more than he does, because when he's
Speaker 2: saying to that, I thought, Wow, that was such a
Speaker 2: shock to me because you just get so much experience
Speaker 2: all day every day. Yeah, you're just in court.
Speaker 1: And you've had those quirky magistrates too.
Speaker 2: Quirky magistrates. Absolutely. I remember one at Fairfield. This guy
Speaker 2: came in. It was a domestic and of course he
Speaker 2: came in with his wife arm in arm and he's
Speaker 2: charged with, you know, assaulting her and I'm like, okay,
Speaker 2: this is probably not going to go well. He gets
Speaker 2: in the witness box and you know, he was defending
Speaker 2: himself full for a client and I said, you hit her,
Speaker 2: didn't you. He said yeah, but I didn't beat and
Speaker 2: he'll treat her on the chart and the magistrate said, yeah, nothing,
Speaker 2: he can step down now.
Speaker 1: He thought he jammed up on the legal I slapped around,
Speaker 1: but not what it says on the indictment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Crazy times. In between all that doing the police work.
Speaker 1: You've got a lot of academic qualifications too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was a bit obsessive about going Look. I
Speaker 2: grew up in Woollongong. I went to Berkeley High School,
Speaker 2: which was named by the local paper the Illa Warra
Speaker 2: Mercury is the nursery for criminals, which probably you know,
Speaker 2: I won't say anything disaporaging about it Newcastle.
Speaker 1: We've got a little listeners down there exactly.
Speaker 2: But I survived it and I always thought, you know,
Speaker 2: I wanted to get an education. I felt like I
Speaker 2: didn't really get and education, and I was interested in
Speaker 2: law and criminology and all that sort of stuff, but
Speaker 2: I really didn't have the confidence to go to UNI.
Speaker 2: I thought I'm not smart enough for that. And Frank
Speaker 2: McGoldrick was my boss at the Prosecutors and I said, oh,
Speaker 2: I think I'm thinking about doing law or criminology and
Speaker 2: he said, you're crazy if you don't. I said, I
Speaker 2: just think maybe I'm not smart enough. He said, don't
Speaker 2: be ridiculous, and he really pushed me, and I did
Speaker 2: it and I loved it. Yeah, So I did criminology
Speaker 2: at Sydney UNI Law School and then I had a
Speaker 2: bit of confidence. I thought, maybe I can do law.
Speaker 2: Maybe I'm not that dumb after all. It's terrible to
Speaker 2: think that way. And then I did law and also
Speaker 2: did a Bachelor of Policing in Prosecutions, which I don't
Speaker 2: think they run anymore. But yeah, so it was good. Really,
Speaker 2: I enjoyed it. And going to UNI as a mature
Speaker 2: age student with a lot of other mature age students
Speaker 2: and a lot of cops and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1: It was great.
Speaker 2: We really worked together and helped each other.
Speaker 1: I think getting those qualifications helps with your own self
Speaker 1: confidence too. Okay, Well, because you look at these people,
Speaker 1: and especially in the field that you were working in
Speaker 1: prosecuting that you look at these people and think, well,
Speaker 1: I can't really match it with them, but to then
Speaker 1: put yourself through that and get all those qualifications. So
Speaker 1: what did you do in your spare time? I know
Speaker 1: I was there any spare time.
Speaker 2: Well, I went to sieges with my husband.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so that's that's why. That's why, that's why
Speaker 1: you were flirting at the sieges because you didn't have
Speaker 1: time for a social life, so you had that. That's it. Okay,
Speaker 1: that makes sense.
Speaker 2: Now my husband's idea of date night when he was
Speaker 2: at the tous, oh, let's go down to the armory
Speaker 2: range and you know, on a Saturday night and fire
Speaker 2: off a cannon or so.
Speaker 1: But you were the one the arguments with your negotiating skills.
Speaker 2: Well, that's what he says. That's what he says. I'm
Speaker 2: not sure that that's always true that because he just says, no,
Speaker 2: what about that I was thinking? He says, don't think,
Speaker 2: just don't think.
Speaker 1: It just makes me laugh. Before the view two the
Speaker 1: sieges and that review negotiating him sitting there with very
Speaker 1: very funny, very funny times. Who were you before you
Speaker 1: joined the place?
Speaker 2: Well, I grew up in Berkeley, berserkly, as many people
Speaker 2: call it.
Speaker 1: Nothing to be ashamed of, nothing.
Speaker 2: To be ashamed of. It is what it is, and
Speaker 2: proud that I survived it because you know, a lot
Speaker 2: of kids I went to school with they didn't and
Speaker 2: there was a lot of crime and kids I went
Speaker 2: to school with who were murdered and or who conducted murders.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not talking about lots, but it was
Speaker 2: pretty rough upbringing. And I didn't realize that until I
Speaker 2: joined the cops and looked back. And I always thought
Speaker 2: we were really rich living in Berkeley, because I wasn't cold,
Speaker 2: I wasn't hungry, and you know, I wasn't neglected. And
Speaker 2: there are a lot of kids who were in that boat,
Speaker 2: not all of them, but some of them. And so
Speaker 2: I thought, oh, we must be the rich people. And
Speaker 2: then I went to North Sydney as a probationary constable.
Speaker 2: I'm driving around Mosman looking at these houses and thinking,
Speaker 2: maybe we weren't rich.
Speaker 1: Suddenly that house wasn't that big after all.
Speaker 2: No, it kept growing. Is we have more kids. So
Speaker 2: I was the third of four kids, and I was lucky.
Speaker 2: I had an older brother and sister at school, so
Speaker 2: I kind of felt protected at high school by them. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but my parents were just battlers and they worked hard,
Speaker 2: and my dad worked in the steel works. And yeah,
Speaker 2: when I wanted to join the police, you know, I
Speaker 2: left home at eighteen.
Speaker 1: And you know what made you think joining the police,
Speaker 1: because back then it wasn't a career for women or no,
Speaker 1: it was a career that rather odd that women would
Speaker 1: even want to join the police.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I know, even now, Garry.
Speaker 1: I know we've progressed. Come on, surely progressed we have.
Speaker 1: We have a little bit, one step forward, two steps back.
Speaker 1: We'll get there eventually.
Speaker 2: Well, a couple of reasons, especially my brother had joined
Speaker 2: the police. He was two years older than me, but
Speaker 2: he didn't state he actually develop schizophrenia at nineteen when
Speaker 2: he was about two years in and left, and I
Speaker 2: guess seeing him in the police and all that sort
Speaker 2: of stuff, I thought, wow, that's so interesting, And I
Speaker 2: really wanted to help people. I thought, maybe I've got
Speaker 2: something to contribute to the community. And I have almost
Speaker 2: an obsessional fascination with people. And their motivation for doing things.
Speaker 2: And you know, I think it was an NYPD officer
Speaker 2: said that being in the cops is like having a
Speaker 2: front road ticket to the best show on Earth, and
Speaker 2: because you just exposed to everything. And I'm always being
Speaker 2: curious about why people do what they do, Why did
Speaker 2: this person commit this crime? Or you know, criminals don't
Speaker 2: have a great big X on their back. They're just ordinary,
Speaker 2: mundane people a lot of the time. But their motivation
Speaker 2: really terrested and fascinated me.
Speaker 1: Is a fascinating view into the world, the world that
Speaker 1: most people. I think that's the obsession people have with
Speaker 1: crime and true crime stuff. It's a world that most
Speaker 1: people fortunately don't get to see. But what is behind
Speaker 1: that curtain? Why do people do these type of things?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and you never know what people are going through
Speaker 2: what you know, everybody has their bad day. And I
Speaker 2: remember when I was probationary constable, this woman came into
Speaker 2: the police station and I was the reserve constable behind
Speaker 2: the counter and she said, she's probably in the fifties.
Speaker 2: I've just read in the Sydney Morning Herald, but that
Speaker 2: my son's fiance has been murdered. And she was really distrappsed,
Speaker 2: so I, you know, got onto the saw, this sergeant
Speaker 2: got onto the detectives came down. Turns out her son
Speaker 2: had had a domestic with the fiance had punched her.
Speaker 2: They were both drunk. She died as a result of
Speaker 2: the assaults. So then we had to tell her that
Speaker 2: it was her son, and she was devastated and she
Speaker 2: kept fainting and I had to care for her that day.
Speaker 2: And she said to me, you know what, she said,
Speaker 2: how do I face that poor girl's parents? She said,
Speaker 2: you always think about the family of the person who's
Speaker 2: been murdered. She said, how do I live with this
Speaker 2: knowing that my son did this? You know, I really
Speaker 2: felt great compassion for her. I just thought, of course,
Speaker 2: you know, the victim's family completely and utterly devastated. But
Speaker 2: this poor woman, she was just like so shocked. And
Speaker 2: this guy who did the murder, his brother was a
Speaker 2: police officer. It was just the most.
Speaker 1: Bizarre thing shows And yeah, you're a kid back then
Speaker 1: when you look at it, and I look back at
Speaker 1: some of the things I saw and did as a
Speaker 1: police officer, but you didn't really have time to reflect
Speaker 1: on what it was. But what you just touched on
Speaker 1: there the crime murders at the extreme, but any crime
Speaker 1: affects so many many people.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: You see the parents of offenders that come in and
Speaker 1: you know, they've done everything in their power to put
Speaker 1: their kid. They love their kid, They've tried to do
Speaker 1: everything they can and the kid's gone off track for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: and it impacts on them. But the fact that you
Speaker 1: could understand that, I think that probably having that type
Speaker 1: of understanding of the nuances that come into play with crime,
Speaker 1: well that carried you all the way through your career.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And I think for me, empathy and compassion
Speaker 2: and even for lots of people. And you know, like
Speaker 2: I said, criminals don't have the big X on their back.
Speaker 2: I remember when I was in GDS again, we got
Speaker 2: called to a shoppy at shoplifting at will Worse at
Speaker 2: Crowsness and this woman had stolen a leg of lamb.
Speaker 2: Who steals a leg of lamb? Why are you stealing
Speaker 2: a leg of lamp? Is because you want to feed
Speaker 2: your family? Like it was just heartbreaking to me. Those
Speaker 2: sorts of stuff, those sorts of incidents really you know,
Speaker 2: resonated with me and left an impact and I just thought,
Speaker 2: poor woman like that you have to steal a leg
Speaker 2: of lamb, and they wanted her charge, and she was charged,
Speaker 2: and she just had this blank look on her face
Speaker 2: and almost like she'd given up, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: And horrible person that's trying to look after their children.
Speaker 1: But you've mentioned the word empathy, and we use that
Speaker 1: word a lot in the podcast here, and I do
Speaker 1: it in the context that the good police officers, the
Speaker 1: good detectives that I know that I looked up to,
Speaker 1: that were my mentors, all had that empathy absolutely in
Speaker 1: their arsenal that they would understand people. And you did
Speaker 1: criminology also negotiating, you've got to understand where people are
Speaker 1: coming from, what's making them do what they're doing.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, which has always been my fascination, is why you
Speaker 2: know what look behind what is right in front of you,
Speaker 2: what's behind that? How have we arrived or how has
Speaker 2: that person arrived at this point in their life life?
Speaker 2: You know? And it's sometimes it's just tragic. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: really sad.
Speaker 1: There is a lot of sadness there. But like any
Speaker 1: person that's been in the police for long enough, you
Speaker 1: would have seen some funny stuff too.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yes, I did see a lot of funny things
Speaker 2: and well dark humor, yes by them.
Speaker 1: That's accepted on my catchkills, and I think we have
Speaker 1: explained it enough. People don't get to spend over forty
Speaker 1: years in the cops as long as you do without
Speaker 1: being able to see some light or humor in the darkness.
Speaker 1: Otherwise you're just going to destroy yourself.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: So yeah, our listeners are accustomed to the dark kit.
Speaker 2: Okay, So it's I think interesting the people that you
Speaker 2: work with them. We talked before we came on here
Speaker 2: about Mahonk, who is a legend.
Speaker 1: We'll talk further about my O. Yes and shout out
Speaker 1: to Wayne Gordon.
Speaker 2: How to Wayne Gordon, God love you, Monk. I was
Speaker 2: involved in the rest of IIV Malatt and Mahonk. Wayne Gordon,
Speaker 2: detective sergeant with a very deep voice and very tough
Speaker 2: and very big and very intimidating, was the primary negotiator
Speaker 2: on our team. So there were four of us on
Speaker 2: the team. There was Mahonk, John O'Reilly, Peter Gillham and
Speaker 2: myself as a team lad. And we got called out
Speaker 2: told four o'clock tomorrow morning, got to be at Campbelltown
Speaker 2: Police Station. Didn't know what the job was, had no
Speaker 2: idea whatsoever. Get out there. We're actually going to go
Speaker 2: and lock up a serial killer. And I was like, right, geez,
Speaker 2: this is a bit scary. And they said, we want
Speaker 2: you to negotiate him out because you know, we don't
Speaker 2: know what he's got in his house. It's too dangerous
Speaker 2: for his protection and for the cops and all the
Speaker 2: rest of it. We're going to do it as negotiation.
Speaker 2: Happy days, Mahonk with his due voice, and because we
Speaker 2: knew that Malatt was a person who was really because
Speaker 2: I read some of the brief that morning, I didn't
Speaker 2: know who he was before that seemed to be a
Speaker 2: person that was very much focused on power and establishing
Speaker 2: power with his victims. That he would not respond to
Speaker 2: somebody like me saying would you please come out? He
Speaker 2: needed equal power, and Mahonk was the person with that
Speaker 2: equal power. I'm de turktive, Sergeant Wayne Gord, you know
Speaker 2: that sort of thing. So we really had to think
Speaker 2: about how we were going to do it, and we
Speaker 2: talked about being strong and assertive from the very beginning
Speaker 2: of the negotiation and not being so complacent, but more directional.
Speaker 2: Not if you come out when you come out, this
Speaker 2: is what will happen, so setting the tone from the outset,
Speaker 2: and then as we were driving out there, it was
Speaker 2: like a scene out of you know, a movie. There
Speaker 2: were like, I don't know, thirty police cards.
Speaker 1: It was a huge operation.
Speaker 2: At like five thirty in the morning, We're driving out
Speaker 2: and there's blue lights. I'm very silent in the back
Speaker 2: streets are going from Campbelltown out to where he lived,
Speaker 2: and I was like wow, And I said to mahonk, look,
Speaker 2: I just want to say, we really can't afford to
Speaker 2: fuck this up.
Speaker 1: So that's your sage advice before the exactly exactly don't
Speaker 1: flung up.
Speaker 2: And he said, yeah, thanks for that. I said, no, really,
Speaker 2: we really, I said, I'm a bit worried that this
Speaker 2: could turn into a siege, so we just have to
Speaker 2: be like forceful from the get go. And obviously he
Speaker 2: didn't need to be told that. He knew that, but
Speaker 2: I was sort of like putting my fingers onto him
Speaker 2: just to make sure he got the message. We don't
Speaker 2: want to be here this time tomorrow morning with a
Speaker 2: serial killer.
Speaker 1: But yeah, there was there was a lot of pressure
Speaker 1: on there because of the nature of the crime. It
Speaker 1: was as big as it gets. Yeah, in the history
Speaker 1: of policing with taking down Ivan Malat, it was crucial
Speaker 1: from the arrest at the time, the stuff that was
Speaker 1: found in his place and everything that. Yeah, it was.
Speaker 2: Really amazing, honestly, Gary, because you know, mahnk rang and said,
Speaker 2: I'm detective Da Da Da Da da Da. Is Ivan
Speaker 2: Mallet there? And he said, no, he's not here, like
Speaker 2: and this is at six am. He was as bright
Speaker 2: as a button. He and I just thought, wow, this guy.
Speaker 2: You know, most people answer the phone on a Sunday
Speaker 2: morning at that hour, go you know what's going on.
Speaker 2: Not him, And that was pretty scary. And then after
Speaker 2: he came out and by the way, my husband was
Speaker 2: a sniper on that job.
Speaker 1: To just say, it's like a date night.
Speaker 2: His last job as a sniper. Actually it was date night.
Speaker 1: Let's go arrest a serial kill. That's beautiful. Your relationship
Speaker 1: just rocks.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah, but the investigators, like, you know, we
Speaker 2: went because we were actually around the corner and up
Speaker 2: the street when we did the negotiation. We went right
Speaker 2: there and we went around to the house and honest
Speaker 2: to god, they were going over every blade of g
Speaker 2: in that fronty like it was just massive, nothing I'd
Speaker 2: ever seen. It was really those investigators did such a
Speaker 2: fantastic job. And it was even just looking at his
Speaker 2: photo before we went there. I looked at the photo, thought,
Speaker 2: this guy looks so powerful. He was just very Oh,
Speaker 2: I don't even know what they were intimidating.
Speaker 1: I've seen him in prison, any put off and or
Speaker 1: there was something. Yes, you looked and there's something strange
Speaker 1: going on there. There was that whole power thing and
Speaker 1: just the brutal nature of the crimes. But yeah, full
Speaker 1: credit to everyone that involved in it. And I'm glad
Speaker 1: Mohonk didn't fuck up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, me too, we might be still there. It was
Speaker 2: a fantastic job.
Speaker 1: Can you bring this to a closure. My first experience
Speaker 1: with Mahonk, and this is always said with the greatest respect,
Speaker 1: I think I was in homicide. He was in gang squad,
Speaker 1: and there was a job that overlapped and I didn't
Speaker 1: really know him. It was relatively early in our careers,
Speaker 1: and I'm on the phone to him and Mahonk in
Speaker 1: the steep negotiat his voice basically he told me to
Speaker 1: pull my head in and so that was waving the
Speaker 1: red flag of the bull. So I up the ante
Speaker 1: and I think we're saying threats to each other, what
Speaker 1: we're going to do, blah blah blah. And then Mahonk
Speaker 1: just switched and went, I man, that's all right, okay,
Speaker 1: we'll do that. There was a toughness about him, but
Speaker 1: there was a softness about him to not a softness.
Speaker 1: He presents as this rough, tough, knock him down type guy,
Speaker 1: but he was a deep thinker too, or.
Speaker 2: He is a deep He is a deep thinker. And
Speaker 2: I have to say I had a bit of a
Speaker 2: drama one day at work and I was really upset
Speaker 2: and I walked out of a meeting crying like a
Speaker 2: big blubber and it was a personal thing. And he
Speaker 2: came down to my office and he just opened the
Speaker 2: door and came and gave me the biggest hug and said,
Speaker 2: you're right, darling, you know, and just really Mahonk has
Speaker 2: a tenderness, yes, and when you see it, he really
Speaker 2: does have a heart. Yeah that is big. You know,
Speaker 2: he's very very He's got a very emotional side that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that people don't see and he doesn't allow people
Speaker 1: to see. And his reputation preceded him, I think all
Speaker 1: over the place. Some of the stories I don't know
Speaker 1: if there's true, but my whole when computers come in,
Speaker 1: like what is this ship that's not going to catch on?
Speaker 1: And I don't know if it's true, So I apologize
Speaker 1: if it's not true. But it's pretty funny if it is.
Speaker 1: That he was fighting with a computer, as you would
Speaker 1: imagine Mahonk would fight with a computer and picked it
Speaker 1: up and across the root. There problem solved. No, no
Speaker 1: more computer. Now can we get back to the typewriter? Yes?
Speaker 2: Is there a constable who can use a computer? Get
Speaker 2: in here?
Speaker 1: But no, I liked him. I like working with him,
Speaker 1: and I just I always smile on my face when
Speaker 1: with that first conflict and it wasn't personal, it's just okay,
Speaker 1: that's fair, all right, at least you stood up to me.
Speaker 1: Let's let's move forward now.
Speaker 2: So and I think that, you know what, that's a
Speaker 2: really big thing. When you have somebody like that that
Speaker 2: can be quite intimidating. And if you have a bit
Speaker 2: of a before whatever with them and they can just say, okay,
Speaker 2: well let's get on with it now, that's amazing.
Speaker 1: I thought, here we go. Because he was obviously senior
Speaker 1: to me, I get here we go. I've got myself
Speaker 1: into trouble again. But no, right, okay, I understand your point. Well,
Speaker 1: maybe we could do it this way.
Speaker 2: Yes, And you know what the other thing is, I
Speaker 2: was a senior, comfortable, and I was the team leader.
Speaker 2: And the other three on the team were all sergeants,
Speaker 2: and at one time it was Graham White as well.
Speaker 2: He's also fantastic, and they were so respectful of me.
Speaker 2: But because I had more experience been in the negotiators
Speaker 2: for a longer period, I was made a team leader.
Speaker 2: But just the work we did together and everything, it
Speaker 2: was such a great model and it worked really well
Speaker 2: and they were so respectful and I'm so grateful for that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think when the pressures on on the sharp
Speaker 1: end of police, and when we say sharp end, I
Speaker 1: always throw this out because we know general duties. People
Speaker 1: that spend the career in general duties. They might have
Speaker 1: the profile or whatever, but we know the type of
Speaker 1: they do. They're the first responders. They're the ones that
Speaker 1: go in and don't know what they're going to face.
Speaker 1: But when you're working at negotiating stage, if you're not
Speaker 1: flirting with rick and just concentrating on doing your job
Speaker 1: instead of making eyes at the tactical team leader. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of pressure there and everyone has got to
Speaker 1: that's when all the training, all the skill set has
Speaker 1: to really kick in. And it doesn't surprise me that
Speaker 1: three strong personalities, but they fell in the line on
Speaker 1: that because the job was so important. The job comes first. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not about personalities.
Speaker 2: And I think going out to and working with the
Speaker 2: GDS front line with negotiation jobs, it was really fantastic
Speaker 2: for me too because I got back to the sharp
Speaker 2: end as such of policing and all the commanders were
Speaker 2: always fantastic. You know, they welcomed us in. They said, look,
Speaker 2: you know, this is what's happening. Da da da da da.
Speaker 2: And you know, I have to say one time I
Speaker 2: did say, look, this is not going to take too
Speaker 2: long because I've got a hair appointment.
Speaker 1: I love, this is the real behind what's the issue.
Speaker 1: I know it's a bad siege, but I've got this
Speaker 1: hair appointment and that salon is so hard to get
Speaker 1: into it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we've got to be out of here in
Speaker 2: forty five minutes.
Speaker 1: Did you explain that to the person that was top
Speaker 1: of my hair? The person locked up. Excuse me? Do
Speaker 1: you realize there are other things happening?
Speaker 2: That's right, Absolutely, it's worth it to everybody else for
Speaker 2: me to get my hair done.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, I'm just saying, at least you didn't send
Speaker 1: Rick in resolve without any haven't got time to negotiate
Speaker 1: Rick going and get him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know what, so many vulnerable people in
Speaker 2: neg jobs. Just sorry, I'm digressing. I just remembered. One
Speaker 2: was that cremorn. This guy was threatening to stab himself
Speaker 2: and he was standing on top on the roof of
Speaker 2: a block of units, and we're in the block of
Speaker 2: units next door, standing out on a balcony, and I
Speaker 2: got that was the first negotiated there. I don't even
Speaker 2: think the tactical guys were there. And there was a
Speaker 2: young policewoman who was negotiating with him. So I went
Speaker 2: up with her and I said, keep going. I'll just
Speaker 2: be here next to you. Da da da da da.
Speaker 2: And anyway, he ran through a plate glass window back
Speaker 2: into the unit and I said, he's coming to get
Speaker 2: us upstairs. I said, quick shut the door, you know,
Speaker 2: like close the front because we had the front door open.
Speaker 2: I thought he's coming up here. To get us, and
Speaker 2: we tried to shut the front door and the deadlocks
Speaker 2: on and it couldn't open it, all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2: It was quite you know when I think back now,
Speaker 2: and she was so fantastic, this young girl. And then
Speaker 2: the tactical team came and this guy said, you know what,
Speaker 2: I've called all my friends in the last three days.
Speaker 2: His girlfriend left him or something, and he said, nobody
Speaker 2: will talk to me. He said, I'll come out if
Speaker 2: you give me a hug. I said to the tactical blokes,
Speaker 2: I said, he'll come out for a hug. And I said,
Speaker 2: are you stupid? What's wrong with you? You're not going
Speaker 2: to give them a stick? I said, do you want
Speaker 2: to be here all night? They said no. I said,
Speaker 2: I'm giving nam a hug. Anyway, he came to the
Speaker 2: door and I said, this is what's going to happen.
Speaker 2: There's all these guys. They've got black year on the
Speaker 2: da da da da, and they're going to search you
Speaker 2: and then you know, after that, we'll have a hug
Speaker 2: we can hug, and then you're going to go to
Speaker 2: the hospital explain the whole process. But they were mortified
Speaker 2: that I was, and I said, well, if that's what
Speaker 2: gets him out, that's what gets him out.
Speaker 1: So I like that type of policing and thinking outside
Speaker 1: of the square. Like it. Yeah, you would have broken
Speaker 1: every rule that you were taught and but it helps
Speaker 1: resolve the situation. It's a common sense approach.
Speaker 2: And when he came out, he sat in the police car,
Speaker 2: in the back of the police car and they were
Speaker 2: going to take him to the hospital. And I said,
Speaker 2: I'm not coming to the hospital with you, but you're
Speaker 2: safe and the police will take you and all that
Speaker 2: sort of stuff. And he said, he looked around, he said,
Speaker 2: all of this just for me, because you know, there
Speaker 2: are a lot of cops there. He was armed, the
Speaker 2: tactical team of their the nags, the GDS. It was
Speaker 2: a big response. And he said, I can't believe that
Speaker 2: all of this was just for me, that you helped me,
Speaker 2: you know. And I said, well, that's what we're here for.
Speaker 1: That's good if you can help people in that way.
Speaker 1: Because of that, there's some bizarre situations in those sieges, isn't.
Speaker 2: There, And people get into a situation and then they
Speaker 2: just don't know how to get out of it. They
Speaker 2: throw the grenade in it explodes, and they go, oh
Speaker 2: my god, there's a grenade exploded. What do I do now?
Speaker 1: Well, I think the role of a good negotia there
Speaker 1: is to do escalate when it's like that, because you can.
Speaker 1: You can ramp it up or take it take it down. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's a fascinating side of it. You did another
Speaker 1: siege while we're talking about as a negotiat the Caangy Siege.
Speaker 1: Can you describe the situation there because I remember that
Speaker 1: because it was such an unusual situation and a lot
Speaker 1: of layers to it. Yeah, it was.
Speaker 2: There were three offenders. The main one was a guy
Speaker 2: called lead Beater, and he had a delusional fixation that
Speaker 2: he was setting up his own religion, all this sort
Speaker 2: of stuff. I think basically he wanted to suicide, but
Speaker 2: he couldn't bring himself to do it. He had a
Speaker 2: young gay lover who was Robbie Steel and who was
Speaker 2: much younger than him. And another guy who actually was
Speaker 2: who actually came out before I came on my ship
Speaker 2: for the next I didn't have much to do with him.
Speaker 2: But they had killed people across three states. They'd gone
Speaker 2: from Queensland, South Australia, New South Wales and just gone
Speaker 2: up to people in campgrounds and just shot them dead
Speaker 2: for no apparent reason.
Speaker 1: How many people did they kill? Do you recall they
Speaker 1: killed five people? Right, Okay, And that was in nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety three, ninety three, So the crime wave that these
Speaker 1: guys were going on, how long did that last?
Speaker 2: I think it was about nine days across Queensland, New
Speaker 2: South Wales. They yeah, they just were crazy, just killing
Speaker 2: random people, just killing random people. And they took some
Speaker 2: people hostage up at Hanging Rock up at Cany and
Speaker 2: there are a couple of kids inside and Mike Willacy
Speaker 2: got on the phone to the For some reason, he
Speaker 2: was able to get through to the house phone, so
Speaker 2: we couldn't actually get through and he was talking to them,
Speaker 2: which was a big problem for us. Yeah. Absolutely, And
Speaker 2: so what happened The tactical team flew up there and
Speaker 2: we actually did the negotiation from Sydney from the old
Speaker 2: cob in the Remington Building, which was the first time
Speaker 2: we'd done it at distance. You know, it was a
Speaker 2: couple of hundred kilometers. So we had constant contact with
Speaker 2: the tactical team about what was going on with the negotiations,
Speaker 2: and once again mohonk was one of the negotiators, and
Speaker 2: he should have gotten accommodation for that. I don't think
Speaker 2: that he did, but he really should have because he
Speaker 2: did a fantastic job.
Speaker 1: And so.
Speaker 2: Leadbeater was fixated on killing himself and he said, all right,
Speaker 2: I'm going to come out now, I'm going to go
Speaker 2: in a blaze of glory and all this sort of stuff.
Speaker 2: And he come outside the house. They don't do that.
Speaker 2: He come outside the housing high behind a book because
Speaker 2: he was actually scared.
Speaker 1: A big game.
Speaker 2: Yeah, talk up a big game exactly. Anyway, we managed
Speaker 2: to negotiate Robbie Steele, his lover out. We said, you know,
Speaker 2: Robbie's got a lot to live for. He was getting
Speaker 2: a big compensation payout. He had a brain injury from
Speaker 2: the car ax and all this sort of stuff. And
Speaker 2: what was the most fascinating thing was that eventually led
Speaker 2: Better said, yeah, okay, Robbie can go. And we said
Speaker 2: you're going to have to. You'll have to tell him
Speaker 2: to go because he won't listen to us. So led
Speaker 2: Better negotiated with Robbie Steele for Robbie to go. Is
Speaker 2: that bizarre?
Speaker 1: It is bizarre.
Speaker 2: And not only that these people had killed people, and
Speaker 2: when they were saying there goodbyes, they're crying so much emotion.
Speaker 2: It was just the most bizarre thing I thought at
Speaker 2: the time. On the one hand, you can be cold
Speaker 2: blooded killers and on the other hand, you're showing all
Speaker 2: this emotion about separating from it each other. So Robbie
Speaker 2: Steele came out Ledbetter eventually killed himself inside the stronghold
Speaker 2: and wrote a note and he said, you know, thank
Speaker 2: you to us, to the police. You know, I really
Speaker 2: appreciate everything you did and all that sort of stuff,
Speaker 2: which you know, it's kind of like it's just bizarre,
Speaker 2: isn't it.
Speaker 1: It is bizarre. And the things that you see and
Speaker 1: do in that role as in the gay Shader, How
Speaker 1: did it impact on you personally in those type of things,
Speaker 1: because the pressure pressures on, Like I know, like I've
Speaker 1: been to those sieges and you know, we might turn
Speaker 1: up as a tactical police and you guys are on
Speaker 1: the loud hailo or on the phone trying to talk
Speaker 1: these people out. And I've been at some sieges where
Speaker 1: I get so bored. With the negay Shaders.
Speaker 2: I used to get bored.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're laying there You're thinking, you're laying there
Speaker 1: with your rifle or whatever, and you're thinking, why don't
Speaker 1: you say this to him, because you're trying to fill
Speaker 1: in the time and you're hearing the gay shaders. And
Speaker 1: I know there's a set pary to cole these very
Speaker 1: sound reasons why you're saying things. But sometimes I felt
Speaker 1: like just getting up, give me the loud hailin may
Speaker 1: he have a shot at it. But there's a lot
Speaker 1: of pressure. How did it impact on you personally after
Speaker 1: a job like that, You're on a high or it
Speaker 1: just drained.
Speaker 2: Or yeah, I think just drained. And sometimes I think
Speaker 2: I did a job that went for well. It was
Speaker 2: a Monday morning. I started work, finished work, and at
Speaker 2: like six pm got called out and it went till
Speaker 2: about two pm the next day. We didn't get relieved.
Speaker 2: I was so cactus. But we had fantastic training. Norm
Speaker 2: Hazard set up the negotiators. Norm was just a genius
Speaker 2: or he is a genius of a man in the
Speaker 2: Cops legend. Just could think so strategically, he could think
Speaker 2: sideways backwards in like he really was fantastic. And I
Speaker 2: remember very early on he told me to stick to
Speaker 2: my guns. He said, if the tactical blokes you know,
Speaker 2: give you a hard time, you tell me and I'll
Speaker 2: get up and for the rent, because you know.
Speaker 1: He'd be good having Norman your Backpock.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, because he would say, you know, the negotiators must
Speaker 2: have as much input into the resolution as the tactical team.
Speaker 2: The tactical team don't run it. The negotiators don't run it.
Speaker 2: It's done together.
Speaker 1: Good advice, a fantastic.
Speaker 2: Advice, and Norm was fantastic. We had great psychiatrists with
Speaker 2: us as well, so all of those things, the training,
Speaker 2: the psychs were all really good, but it was very draining.
Speaker 2: And I remember one time when Rick and I were
Speaker 2: on call.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we went where were we going to spend Friday night?
Speaker 2: Exactly three jobs in one day, and the third job
Speaker 2: was a hostage job at Crow's Nest and it was
Speaker 2: bucketing down rain and Rick said, oh, we've got a job.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: He got the call first, and it's at Crowsnest hostage job.
Speaker 2: Da Da da da da. Michael Diamond was the psychiatrist
Speaker 2: and it was in a house and Grahame White was
Speaker 2: the negotiator with Belinda Neil Graham as fantastic as a
Speaker 2: negotiatow is so calm and I was a team leader,
Speaker 2: and anyway, Michael Diamond was there, and I said, whatever
Speaker 2: you do. The tactical team actually got up into the
Speaker 2: roof and above where this woman was being held hostage.
Speaker 2: She'd been she's been held knife point. It was very
Speaker 2: hard to get in there. Anyway, in the kitchen, we
Speaker 2: set up a command post in the kitchen and I
Speaker 2: said to Michael, whatever you do, Michael, if there's they're
Speaker 2: going to fire anything, just hit the deck. Okay. He
Speaker 2: said what I said, No, seriously, just hit the deck. Anyway.
Speaker 2: Sometimes you go into houses and they're a little bit hot.
Speaker 2: So there's this set of false teeth on the kitchen sink, charming.
Speaker 2: And then there's this box of chocolates on the dining table,
Speaker 2: and Michael's addicted to chocolate, as am I. And he
Speaker 2: said to me, can't believe you bought these chocolates. You know,
Speaker 2: it's like four o'clock in the morning. Everybody's cactus and
Speaker 2: he's munching on the chocks. And I said they were
Speaker 2: already here. I said, sorry, Michael, I should have told.
Speaker 1: You they tastes so nice and different type of flavor
Speaker 1: but eventually got.
Speaker 2: The guy out and he was very scary, that guy.
Speaker 2: But you know, the tactical team the next all works
Speaker 2: so well together. It was a good resolution. And that
Speaker 2: poor woman she yeah, I won't go into all the details,
Speaker 2: but she was fine in the end.
Speaker 1: But it was terrifying situation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, really scary.
Speaker 1: Tell me how much because when I was at those
Speaker 1: sieges and I'm hearing what you guys are saying or communications,
Speaker 1: how much work behind the scenes understanding the person you're
Speaker 1: talking to. So I imagine, yeah, let's say I've gone
Speaker 1: off the rails, I've taken hostages. Do you then just
Speaker 1: do a profile on the person, get as much understanding
Speaker 1: about the person before you start speaking to them. What's
Speaker 1: a protocol?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, And also talking to the Sykes is really good.
Speaker 2: So Murray Wright, who's now the chief forensic psychiatrist for
Speaker 2: New Southwell's Health, great guy. And Michael also in the
Speaker 2: old days, got to think now Rod Milton Yeah yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: going right back investigations, Yeah absolutely, So they were really
Speaker 2: so supportive. So you know, you go back to them
Speaker 2: and say, Okay, this is what's happening, this is what
Speaker 2: they've got, this is you know, their background, get as
Speaker 2: much information as possible, and sometimes talking to the family
Speaker 2: members of the offender really helped. But then again sometimes
Speaker 2: it didn't because you'd talk to them and say, look,
Speaker 2: anything strange going on, any behavior recently? Oh no, no, no,
Speaker 2: nothing wrong. He talks to the wall. But apart from that,
Speaker 2: there's nothing.
Speaker 1: You know, it's just like hard to get that purely objective.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you've got to sort of discern the information
Speaker 2: that you're getting sometimes because yeah, but I think with
Speaker 2: the support of the Sykes and everything really helped. And
Speaker 2: also talking to people like Norm. I would ring Norm
Speaker 2: up and say, look, you know what about this, this
Speaker 2: is what's happened data daat are and he'd say, right, well,
Speaker 2: I think maybe this or that. Talking to people who've
Speaker 2: got a lot of experience, and talking to the tactical
Speaker 2: teams as well, getting their input and advice and and
Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff. Really yeah, really, it was, honestly,
Speaker 2: Gary fascinating just thinking about these people. And just also
Speaker 2: I speak very quickly.
Speaker 1: I had to really blow it down.
Speaker 2: Train myself to have a very monotone voice that was
Speaker 2: very slow and data ut so all of that sort
Speaker 2: of stuff you really got to concentrate on what you're doing, and.
Speaker 1: The stakes are very high too, Like did you ever
Speaker 1: have a situation where you've said something and the reaction
Speaker 1: you're thinking, oh, no, this is this is going to
Speaker 1: end badly? Were there times times with that?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, we did have some funny situation like that.
Speaker 2: There was one negotiator where we were because we used
Speaker 2: to say, we're here to help you, not to hurt you,
Speaker 2: and he said we're here to hurt you, not to help.
Speaker 2: You said, next, get him off.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's a faux pa. That's a bad one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, kind of. Yeah, So just really well, I think
Speaker 2: the other thing is with the negotiators. You have four
Speaker 2: negotiators there, so as the primary negotiating, you always have
Speaker 2: the secondary right there because you know you might be able.
Speaker 2: You might be about to ring the person you forget
Speaker 2: their name, and they air to the phone. You go hullo,
Speaker 2: carry Gary, you know, because you just you know, they're
Speaker 2: just there to completely and utterly support you. That's the
Speaker 2: only job. Your throat is getting dry. They're there with
Speaker 2: a bottle of water before you have to ask for it.
Speaker 2: They're just concentrating on you and everything that you need
Speaker 2: because everybody knows that pressure is on.
Speaker 1: You need that support. I had an experience trying the
Speaker 1: negotiape with negotiators and I lost them negaotation. I was
Speaker 1: a crime manager at Chatswood and the person, a male,
Speaker 1: had stabbed his partner and abducted some kids and said
Speaker 1: he's going to kill the kids and disappeared. I was
Speaker 1: at home. I got called, so I came into that
Speaker 1: and I'm running that investigation. We didn't know where he was.
Speaker 1: We had the car circulated, we put an amber alert out,
Speaker 1: and all the things that you do. And I thought
Speaker 1: it'd be a good idea to get the negotiaters involved
Speaker 1: in this because at some point in time we're going
Speaker 1: to find him. But trying to negotiate with the negotiaters. No,
Speaker 1: when you know where he is, then we'll call someone out.
Speaker 1: I'm arguing the point, but I lost the negotiation battle
Speaker 1: with the negotiaters. I got off the phone and said,
Speaker 1: did you get him out? Boss? I said no, they
Speaker 1: out negotiated. But when we did eventually find the person,
Speaker 1: he'd gone in the state and he still had the kids,
Speaker 1: and we got a phone number and I was on
Speaker 1: the phone to him, and I still remember this. I've
Speaker 1: been up all night and I'm speaking to him saying
Speaker 1: along the lines of what you're saying. Look, the lady's
Speaker 1: not dead. It hasn't gone too far. We can yeah,
Speaker 1: we can sort this out. All the things that are
Speaker 1: obvious that you say to de escalate. And we're talking
Speaker 1: away on the phone, and why we're talking. We're trying
Speaker 1: to get a fix on where he is an organized
Speaker 1: tactical police to come and callding off the area, and
Speaker 1: I've said something and he's getting agitated. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: de escalate, and then at one point in time he
Speaker 1: said something, No, I'm not listening anymore and slammed the
Speaker 1: phone down, And before we got him back on the phone,
Speaker 1: that was the longest five minutes I've ever had in
Speaker 1: my life. I'm just thinking, oh my god, is he
Speaker 1: killing the kids now? And then we just kept bringing
Speaker 1: eventually picked it up and it resolved and we got
Speaker 1: the tactical police. I was on the phone to him
Speaker 1: coming in and grabbing him. But that was my one
Speaker 1: experience of pressure. And I look back at my career,
Speaker 1: and you know, if we've had a long career, we've
Speaker 1: all been in those situations at a high risk or whatever.
Speaker 1: But I still remember those five minutes and the boss,
Speaker 1: a commander, I won't mention his name. He's exited the
Speaker 1: exit the police. He's come in because I tried to
Speaker 1: call him out when it was all going on, when
Speaker 1: the lady had been stabbed, the kids had been abducted,
Speaker 1: and we couldn't find the person that's threatening to call
Speaker 1: the kids. And he said, we'll call me if something happens,
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, well, fucking something. It's happening right now, mate,
Speaker 1: happening right now. He's come in for the morning because
Speaker 1: we've been up all night and walked in and I'm
Speaker 1: in my office just after that phone call, and he said,
Speaker 1: how's it going, Gary? Just fuck off?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, that was the That was the pressure. So yeah,
Speaker 1: you guys doing it time and time again. It had
Speaker 1: had to take the toll, but I would imagine you
Speaker 1: become better at it too. The more experienced, Like in
Speaker 1: anything you do in life, especially policing, you would be
Speaker 1: more confident when you pick it up because, Okay, I've
Speaker 1: seen this situation before. I've heard this situation before. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. And also sometimes some people are very easy to
Speaker 2: get out, so we were sitting on the top of
Speaker 2: the Fairfax Tower at T. Laura when they used to,
Speaker 2: you know, print the papers out there, and this guy
Speaker 2: was threatening to jump off and it was like three
Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning. We're hungry, so I said, and
Speaker 2: the rescue squad were there, and I said to the GDS,
Speaker 2: can you go and get us some macas. So they
Speaker 2: brought the macas up and this guy kept saying, I'm hungry,
Speaker 2: I'm hungry, I'm hungry. So we got the macas. We
Speaker 2: were sitting in front of him eating the macs and
Speaker 2: the smell the macis is wafting over it. He said,
Speaker 2: can I have something to it? And I said no.
Speaker 2: I said, well you can if you come back, come
Speaker 2: back here. He came back for the macas well what
Speaker 2: they were available. That's it. Mark Hutchins, I don't know
Speaker 2: if you know. Yeah, he went to a job where
Speaker 2: the guy was threatening to jump off a railway bridge
Speaker 2: and he actually saw that the guy had empty packet
Speaker 2: of Winnie Blue or something. He said to one of
Speaker 2: the gens. First of all, he was in the surf
Speaker 2: and when his page went off and back in the
Speaker 2: day of pages and his wife's calling out to him
Speaker 2: the surf mark Mark, and everybody thought she was saying shark.
Speaker 1: So that would have been because he lived at Capra Cabana.
Speaker 1: I lived there and see him out in the surf,
Speaker 1: it's probably there exactly.
Speaker 2: So he goes in his board shorts and something goes
Speaker 2: to the job and anyway, so he sees this packet
Speaker 2: of when he said to one of the do it
Speaker 2: go do my glove box, get a packet of smokes
Speaker 2: out and so he lit up a cigarette. The bloke
Speaker 2: was back in like two minutes because he wanted a cigarette.
Speaker 1: See there, Like we talked the pressure and seeing here laughing,
Speaker 1: I can just makes me just smile thinking about those
Speaker 1: type of moments because you can't invent them.
Speaker 2: You can't invent them.
Speaker 1: And that's where people talk about policing. It's a hard job.
Speaker 1: It's a hard job, but it's rewarding in the most
Speaker 1: bizarre ways.
Speaker 2: Absolutely couldn't write it. Fact is stranger than fiction.
Speaker 1: Fantastic. Look, the time has flown. I've got all my
Speaker 1: notes here and I'm not getting through any of them.
Speaker 2: Carol, I'm telling too many worries.
Speaker 1: But we'll take a break and when we get back
Speaker 1: we're going to delve further into your your career. Counter
Speaker 1: terrorism because that was a big thing in your career. Also,
Speaker 1: dignitary protection in Sydney Olympics, because that was a very
Speaker 1: fascinating time to be involved in placing. And I've got
Speaker 1: to say it was the best three weeks of my career.
Speaker 1: Had so much fun.
Speaker 2: I probably signed your overtime.
Speaker 1: I knew there was a reason why I loved you.
Speaker 1: All Right, we'll take a break and we'll come back
Speaker 1: for part too shortly excellent,