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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys staid,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Policing is

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Speaker 1: acknowledged for being a rewarding but tough way to earn

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Speaker 1: a living. Today's guests, Caroline Ohare, spent over forty years

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Speaker 1: in New South Wales Police, which is pretty amazing feat

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Speaker 1: in its own right. She retired only last year after

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Speaker 1: an impressive and varied career. Today, she's going to talk

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Speaker 1: to us about her career in uniform and as a

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Speaker 1: detective working as a negotiator, counter terrorist investigator and also

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Speaker 1: indignitory protection. She's also a police prosecutor and is a

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Speaker 1: qualified solicitor. She worked in internal affairs and has made

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Speaker 1: a significant contribution to policing across the country. We're going

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Speaker 1: to hear from her today about heading up the negotiators

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Speaker 1: team during the Kangy siege and the arrest of Ivan

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Speaker 1: malatt Our. Career paths first crossed during the Sydney Olympics

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Speaker 1: where I was doing close personal protection and she was

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Speaker 1: the operations commander of dignitary Protection. Just to add to

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Speaker 1: the pressure of that position, she was also six months

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Speaker 1: pregnant at the time. She's a fun lady. Is he

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Speaker 1: going to find out? Who was very respected and liked

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Speaker 1: throughout her career, as you expect of someone who has

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Speaker 1: spent forty years as a cop. She's some amazing stories

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Speaker 1: and today we're lucky to have her here in the

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Speaker 1: studio sharing those stories with us. Caroline O'Hare, welcome to

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Speaker 1: our Catchkillers.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. Is this when I get a caution or.

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Speaker 1: Now I've given that, I've let that life go. Clearly

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Speaker 1: you haven't, but I could caution, you know, I do

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Speaker 1: miss throwing out the caution you're not the bliged to

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Speaker 1: say anything unless you wish to do so, but whatever

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Speaker 1: you say may later be used in evidence. Do you agree?

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Speaker 2: I agree? I agree? I actually agree.

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Speaker 1: Well, there say whatever we say now we can use

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Speaker 1: that as evidence. It's funny that things like that just

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Speaker 1: getting better than your brain, doesn't it Just you can

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Speaker 1: switch straight back into that mode. Absolutely, even though you've

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Speaker 1: been out of it for a long time. So, how's

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Speaker 1: husband Rick going?

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Speaker 2: He's pretty good. He's actually still working.

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Speaker 1: That is long. He's done a long since.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's nearly forty four years. And but you know,

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Speaker 2: he's enjoying what he's doing. He's got one project he

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Speaker 2: wants to finish. Yeah, and then I think he'll pull

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Speaker 2: the pin. But yeah, he's going really well.

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Speaker 1: Well. I first met Rick when he was a team lead.

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Speaker 1: They're in the tactical Operations unit and I was doing

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Speaker 1: some comments there, so it would have been a pretty

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Speaker 1: interesting household with you guys. There are you working as

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Speaker 1: a negotiator and him dressed in his black overalls with

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Speaker 1: all the weapons and ready to go and then rest

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Speaker 1: the defenders after you've been speaking to them.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and it was during our courtship.

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Speaker 1: Really you fell in love at the siege? Well, well, kinder, yeah, actually,

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Speaker 1: now you should have been concentrating on working you too,

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Speaker 1: I know.

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Speaker 2: But I do remember one job we went to where

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Speaker 2: I was the team leader of the negotiators and Rick

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Speaker 2: was the senior field supervisor for the tactical team. And

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Speaker 2: it was a job at Glebe actually, and we're trying

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Speaker 2: to get a guy out. I forget what the issue was,

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Speaker 2: but and I said to Rick, look, I don't think

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Speaker 2: we're going to negotiate this guy out. I think it's

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Speaker 2: going to have to be a tactical option. And he said, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: I think you can keep negotiating. And I said, no,

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Speaker 2: I don't think so. And this conversation was going on

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Speaker 2: over the back channel of the tou and all the

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Speaker 2: guys and all the negotiows go, are they having a domestic.

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Speaker 1: That is funny, just to add to the pressure and

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Speaker 1: the drama of the seed, exactly, a little bit of

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Speaker 1: domestic conflict always liven is a place up, Absolutely very funny.

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Speaker 1: You joined the police in nineteen eighty one, Yes, okay,

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Speaker 1: it was a different world back then.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sure was. First of all, I was a junior trainee,

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Speaker 2: which meant that I had my HSC. But I was

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Speaker 2: too young to go to pass out. I was only eighteen.

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Speaker 2: So I joined and went to Redfern, and after two

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Speaker 2: weeks of you know, doing real book amendments and shoveling

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Speaker 2: out hay in the sheds, they sent me to Petersham,

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Speaker 2: which at that time was a punishment station. I later

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Speaker 2: found out I didn't know what a punishment station was,

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Speaker 2: but if you did something bad in the group, that's

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Speaker 2: where you.

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Speaker 1: You'd meet all types in the punishment stage.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, it was a strange place.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine now. In prepping for the podcast,

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Speaker 1: you sent me some stuff and I laughed at One

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Speaker 1: of your early recollections of your early time in policing

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Speaker 1: was cooking the prisoner's meals and basically and it wouldn't

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Speaker 1: stand today's test of test of time with it. For

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Speaker 1: some reason, the Police Social Fund had the contract to

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Speaker 1: supply the prisoner's meals. Yes, you were cooking the meals

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Speaker 1: and it was baked beans on toast for breakfast.

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Speaker 2: Lunch and dinner. Yes, I was really shocked when they

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Speaker 2: said you've got to cook the prisoner's meals and I said,

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Speaker 2: but I don't know how to cook. I said, it

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Speaker 2: doesn't matter. I don't have to worry about that. Just

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Speaker 2: seed up the baker beans, some toast and a cup

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Speaker 2: of tea and that's it. And I was like, oh, okay,

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Speaker 2: and by the way, while you're there, go and put

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Speaker 2: the flag up.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: I thought that was a bit of a joke. And

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Speaker 2: I went out and the flag was going up and

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Speaker 2: down the flagpole because I had no idea how to

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Speaker 2: even do that. But yeah, prisoner's meals says poor old

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Speaker 2: prisoners felt so.

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Speaker 1: I felt sorry for him too, because invariably they'd be

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Speaker 1: caught in the police station cells if the jails were full,

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Speaker 1: or they're waiting to go to court, and they'd spent

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Speaker 1: some time there. And I remember picking up prisoners meals

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Speaker 1: and it was basically fish and chips or something for breakfast,

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Speaker 1: lunch and lunch and dinner.

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Speaker 2: So they should have come to Petersham.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I bet you they were really disappointed when they

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Speaker 1: were released from the cells, missing your cooking.

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Speaker 2: That's it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, that's a strange introduction into policing. Just give

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Speaker 1: us an overview of your policing career. Like forty years,

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Speaker 1: forty one years, forty two, forty two years. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: it's a long long time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And when I passed out from the academy at Redfern,

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Speaker 2: I went to GDS at North Sydney for about twenty

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Speaker 2: months and that was interesting because in those days we

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Speaker 2: just had straight skirts. Our uniform was very restrictive. It

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Speaker 2: was just straight skirts, blue stockings, blue flat ugly shoes

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Speaker 2: and a little jacket with our go concealed underneath our

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Speaker 2: uniform top so that people couldn't see it, because it

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Speaker 2: was considered too confronting for the members of the public

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Speaker 2: to see a gun. So all the guns were actually

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Speaker 2: concealed within the holster for the men as well, and

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Speaker 2: it was a cross draw holster, so you'd have to

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Speaker 2: lift up the flap of the holster with your left

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Speaker 2: hand if your right handed, pull the gun out with

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Speaker 2: your right hand. And fire women had small guns because

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Speaker 2: they were considered to have small hands, so we had.

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Speaker 1: You just weren't tough enough to that's right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, five five shooter Smith and Wesson with five extra bullets,

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Speaker 2: and handcuffs and a bat and a handbag.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember that police issue handbags.

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Speaker 2: Police issue handbags. My handbag stylish very they went with

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Speaker 2: the shoes. Mine is actually in the police Armory little

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Speaker 2: museum that my husband's put together because he's the commander

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Speaker 2: of the armory. And every time I go in there

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Speaker 2: and there's some probationary constable in there bringing a gun

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Speaker 2: back or doing something, always that's my handbag. And that's

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Speaker 2: when I first joined the police. They just look at

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Speaker 2: me and think, oh, you poor thing.

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Speaker 1: It seems like a lifetime ago, and like just what

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Speaker 1: policings evolved to, like you only retired last year, But

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Speaker 1: I remember we didn't have There was no computers when

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Speaker 1: we first came. There was a what was a telex.

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Speaker 2: Machine effects it was like yeah, it was a teles

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Speaker 2: and it came out and lots of cops who listened

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Speaker 2: to this would remember these. You type it up and

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Speaker 2: it had come out on a tape, and then you

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Speaker 2: put the tape back into the teles and hopefully didn't

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Speaker 2: put it in upside down or back to front, because

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Speaker 2: it all would come out.

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Speaker 1: Some belfeathered walk in and walk over your telex tape

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Speaker 1: and you had to retype the whole thing.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And we had Sylvester telephone boards, you know, the

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Speaker 2: operator boards were the pulling pull out plugs and all

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Speaker 2: that sort of stuff. No computers, no portable radios.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is hard, hard to comprehend, isn't it

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Speaker 1: like it? I remember those switchboards because when you were

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Speaker 1: a junior police officer, invariably you had station duty and

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Speaker 1: I still remember you had to pull that lead out plug,

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Speaker 1: that one in connect there, and it was just constant.

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Speaker 1: I never thought I joined the police. I thought it

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Speaker 1: was going to be an exciting adventure and here I

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Speaker 1: am hornsby police station. Hello, can I help you? It

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Speaker 1: just became yeah, and you put your receptionist's voice on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah you did.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely couldn't help it. But yeah, different times. So

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Speaker 1: just a quick overview of your career. You've worked in

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Speaker 1: such a variety of areas, so talk us through that.

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Speaker 2: Okay. So then in North Sydney, I went onto a

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Speaker 2: list when I had about twenty month service. I had

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Speaker 2: done a few jobs, a few sexual assault statements for

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Speaker 2: the d's and they said to me, you're interested in

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Speaker 2: playing clothes and I was. I was really interested. I

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Speaker 2: wanted to you know, Yeah, that interested me a lot.

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Speaker 2: So I was there for about twelve months and then

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Speaker 2: the boss came to me. He said, I've got four women.

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Speaker 2: Here's your transfer to the nappy squad, which was the

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Speaker 2: juvenile crime squad at the CIB. Off you go, and

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Speaker 2: so off I went. And it was really good opportunity

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Speaker 2: because everything was indictable. All the matters went to the

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court, the district court that was child a used

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Speaker 2: child sexual assault. We helped and at that time people

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Speaker 2: were just starting to come forward with complaining about historical

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Speaker 2: sexual assaults from when they were children, so the workload

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Speaker 2: was massive, so it was great learning opportunity. And then

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Speaker 2: I went to Balmain Detective for about five years and

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Speaker 2: worked at Ashfield and Annandale and bell Main and really

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Speaker 2: enjoyed that. And then after that I went to the

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Speaker 2: Special Branch.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, which was.

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Speaker 2: A period of my career. I don't often talk about.

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Speaker 1: No one talks about this one talks about because I'm

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Speaker 1: very special. I think the name it just Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: remember what the Special What do they do? They seem

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Speaker 1: to do everything that no one else does.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, actually basically what it was was dictatory protection

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Speaker 2: for high office holders and also counter terrorism intelligence and investigations.

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Speaker 2: So he worked a lot in those days with Commonwealth

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Speaker 2: intelligence agencies and also looking after you know, dictatory. So

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Speaker 2: Bob Hawk was the Prime Minister and we take him

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Speaker 2: out to the races and you know, all these different places,

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Speaker 2: and he was so down to earth and so funny

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Speaker 2: and loved the cops. People like that. The Governor General

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Speaker 2: was Sinnini and Stephen and he'd arrive at the Corners

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Speaker 2: jet base and you know, on Air Force one or

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Speaker 2: whatever plane it was, and the door would open and

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Speaker 2: galloping down the steps would be his labrador, which would

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Speaker 2: go straight into the backseat of the Rolls Royce and

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Speaker 2: we'd take him to you know, Admiralty House at Caribillity and.

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Speaker 1: It was that the Special Branch. And yeah, if there

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Speaker 1: was any issues that needed to let's say, be handled

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Speaker 1: with discretion, yes, they were a special branch branch would

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Speaker 1: come in. So they are interesting times.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there were really some interesting times. And I worked

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Speaker 2: with some really good people there, John Garvey.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, you know John Garvey reputation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we were kind of like the lock up squad.

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Speaker 2: So if there are any lock ups, because we're both detectives

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Speaker 2: and there are other people there too who did that

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Speaker 2: as well. But I remember working with John Alt and yeah,

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Speaker 2: he was fantastic. I learned so much from him.

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Speaker 1: That would have opened your eyes up to the world too.

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Speaker 1: So like you know, hanging out with a prime minister

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Speaker 1: and doing things. It's eye opening, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: It is? And I think the thing is too. In

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Speaker 2: those days there was no internet, so if you wanted

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Speaker 2: to know about the Palestine Liberation Organization, you actually had

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Speaker 2: to research it in ways other than the Internet. So

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Speaker 2: it was it was a different era of policing. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so it was good. It was really interesting. I loved

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Speaker 2: I loved counter terrorism.

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Speaker 1: And where did you go to from there?

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Speaker 2: From there, I'm trying to remember. I went to Internal

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Speaker 2: Affairs I think for about a year, and then I

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Speaker 2: went to the Royal Commission into the Building industry.

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Speaker 1: I tried. I tried to get into the Royal Commission

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Speaker 1: into that that tried the strike force because I had

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Speaker 1: worked in the building industry, but I was told I

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Speaker 1: was pulled aside because my father was high up in

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Speaker 1: the building industry and said, oh, I know there could

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Speaker 1: be a conflict of interest.

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Speaker 2: Oh really, wow, yeah it look it was really interesting

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Speaker 2: and I met some really interesting people. Some really ruthless people,

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Speaker 2: some really great people. But it was really an eye

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Speaker 2: opener and I enjoyed it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the building industry back in those days, there was

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Speaker 1: a lot going on in the building industry, and it

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Speaker 1: was the fact that there was a commission into commission

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Speaker 1: into it. It was important.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, it was very political, but it was It was

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Speaker 2: interesting and there was a lot of There was a

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Speaker 2: lot of corruption from every facet involved in the building industry,

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Speaker 2: from all sides. So yeah, it was good.

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Speaker 1: I learned a lot actually, Okay, so where too? From there?

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Speaker 2: After that, I went to the prosecutors. I became a

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Speaker 2: prosecutor at Northwest Region and I loved prosecuting. I realized

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Speaker 2: I knew nothing as a detective, and in between all

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Speaker 2: of that, I became a negotiator as well, So I

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Speaker 2: really and I did three years at Blacktown Court as

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Speaker 2: a prosecutor. I work with really fantastic prosecutors, Dave Parcel,

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Speaker 2: Steve McGrath, Like what they didn't know about the law

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Speaker 2: was not worth knowing.

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Speaker 1: Just those names. It brings back memories because I crossed

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Speaker 1: pars with them during my career and they were very

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Speaker 1: good at what they did.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there was one guy, Trevor Osborne, and all the

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Speaker 2: solicitors would come and ask him for advice, and I

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Speaker 2: remember magistrate asked me to address on a particular piece

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Speaker 2: at case law and he said, I'll speak to you

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Speaker 2: after morning too. So I raced back and I said, Trevor,

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Speaker 2: I don't know what I'm doing, what is it? And

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Speaker 2: he said, well, I was the court constable on that

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Speaker 2: case in nineteen seventy two were Rockdale, and and explained

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Speaker 2: the whole thing like he was like an encyclopedia. So

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Speaker 2: lucky to have those old guys who just knew everything in.

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Speaker 1: The legal fraternity too. You had so much time on

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Speaker 1: your feet in court because the prosecutors would handle a

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Speaker 1: lot of matters and even the committal hearing's for in

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Speaker 1: diatable offenses.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, it was fantastic, and it was really at Blacktown.

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Speaker 2: It was kind of I called it meatball, kind of

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Speaker 2: like surgery. It was like going in one door coming

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Speaker 2: out another, and people had have domestics in the registrars

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Speaker 2: call over and you'd you know, almost be locking up

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Speaker 2: the people going to court for their matters because they're

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Speaker 2: having punch ups in.

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Speaker 1: The chaos of the chaos, yeah, but it was a

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Speaker 1: good area to learn your skill set.

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Speaker 2: To absolutely the flow on effect from Mount Druitt as

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Speaker 2: well for custodies and all that sort of stuff. It

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Speaker 2: was just constant, but it was a great learning experience

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Speaker 2: and I loved it at Blacktown.

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Speaker 1: I thought, even when I was giving evidence at the

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Speaker 1: local court, like most of the latter part of my career,

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Speaker 1: it was always at the Supreme Court, but I learnt

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Speaker 1: my skills in the witness box at the lower court

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Speaker 1: because it might only be for minor matters or relatively

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Speaker 1: minor matters. But it was.

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Speaker 2: Robust, absolutely, yeah, absolutely, no, It was really fantastic, and

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Speaker 2: it's quite intimidating as a prosecutor to go in and

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Speaker 2: you think, oh, you know, I'm up against this particular

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Speaker 2: solicitener or whoever. And then sometimes I'd sit back and

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Speaker 2: I think. I remember one day, I thought, I think

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Speaker 2: I actually know more than he does, because when he's

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Speaker 2: saying to that, I thought, Wow, that was such a

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Speaker 2: shock to me because you just get so much experience

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Speaker 2: all day every day. Yeah, you're just in court.

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Speaker 1: And you've had those quirky magistrates too.

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Speaker 2: Quirky magistrates. Absolutely. I remember one at Fairfield. This guy

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Speaker 2: came in. It was a domestic and of course he

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Speaker 2: came in with his wife arm in arm and he's

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Speaker 2: charged with, you know, assaulting her and I'm like, okay,

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Speaker 2: this is probably not going to go well. He gets

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Speaker 2: in the witness box and you know, he was defending

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Speaker 2: himself full for a client and I said, you hit her,

336
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Speaker 2: didn't you. He said yeah, but I didn't beat and

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Speaker 2: he'll treat her on the chart and the magistrate said, yeah, nothing,

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Speaker 2: he can step down now.

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Speaker 1: He thought he jammed up on the legal I slapped around,

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Speaker 1: but not what it says on the indictment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: Crazy times. In between all that doing the police work.

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Speaker 1: You've got a lot of academic qualifications too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was a bit obsessive about going Look. I

345
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Speaker 2: grew up in Woollongong. I went to Berkeley High School,

346
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Speaker 2: which was named by the local paper the Illa Warra

347
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Speaker 2: Mercury is the nursery for criminals, which probably you know,

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Speaker 2: I won't say anything disaporaging about it Newcastle.

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Speaker 1: We've got a little listeners down there exactly.

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Speaker 2: But I survived it and I always thought, you know,

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Speaker 2: I wanted to get an education. I felt like I

352
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Speaker 2: didn't really get and education, and I was interested in

353
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Speaker 2: law and criminology and all that sort of stuff, but

354
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Speaker 2: I really didn't have the confidence to go to UNI.

355
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Speaker 2: I thought I'm not smart enough for that. And Frank

356
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,400
Speaker 2: McGoldrick was my boss at the Prosecutors and I said, oh,

357
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Speaker 2: I think I'm thinking about doing law or criminology and

358
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Speaker 2: he said, you're crazy if you don't. I said, I

359
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Speaker 2: just think maybe I'm not smart enough. He said, don't

360
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Speaker 2: be ridiculous, and he really pushed me, and I did

361
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Speaker 2: it and I loved it. Yeah, So I did criminology

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Speaker 2: at Sydney UNI Law School and then I had a

363
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Speaker 2: bit of confidence. I thought, maybe I can do law.

364
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:33,520
Speaker 2: Maybe I'm not that dumb after all. It's terrible to

365
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Speaker 2: think that way. And then I did law and also

366
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Speaker 2: did a Bachelor of Policing in Prosecutions, which I don't

367
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Speaker 2: think they run anymore. But yeah, so it was good. Really,

368
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,320
Speaker 2: I enjoyed it. And going to UNI as a mature

369
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Speaker 2: age student with a lot of other mature age students

370
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Speaker 2: and a lot of cops and all that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 1: It was great.

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Speaker 2: We really worked together and helped each other.

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Speaker 1: I think getting those qualifications helps with your own self

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Speaker 1: confidence too. Okay, Well, because you look at these people,

375
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Speaker 1: and especially in the field that you were working in

376
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Speaker 1: prosecuting that you look at these people and think, well,

377
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Speaker 1: I can't really match it with them, but to then

378
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,359
Speaker 1: put yourself through that and get all those qualifications. So

379
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Speaker 1: what did you do in your spare time? I know

380
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Speaker 1: I was there any spare time.

381
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Speaker 2: Well, I went to sieges with my husband.

382
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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so that's that's why. That's why, that's why

383
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Speaker 1: you were flirting at the sieges because you didn't have

384
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Speaker 1: time for a social life, so you had that. That's it. Okay,

385
00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:25,280
Speaker 1: that makes sense.

386
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Speaker 2: Now my husband's idea of date night when he was

387
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Speaker 2: at the tous, oh, let's go down to the armory

388
00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:33,800
Speaker 2: range and you know, on a Saturday night and fire

389
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Speaker 2: off a cannon or so.

390
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,840
Speaker 1: But you were the one the arguments with your negotiating skills.

391
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Speaker 2: Well, that's what he says. That's what he says. I'm

392
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,560
Speaker 2: not sure that that's always true that because he just says, no,

393
00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:46,720
Speaker 2: what about that I was thinking? He says, don't think,

394
00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:48,080
Speaker 2: just don't think.

395
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Speaker 1: It just makes me laugh. Before the view two the

396
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Speaker 1: sieges and that review negotiating him sitting there with very

397
00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:02,960
Speaker 1: very funny, very funny times. Who were you before you

398
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:03,679
Speaker 1: joined the place?

399
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:07,480
Speaker 2: Well, I grew up in Berkeley, berserkly, as many people

400
00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:07,800
Speaker 2: call it.

401
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:09,280
Speaker 1: Nothing to be ashamed of, nothing.

402
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,080
Speaker 2: To be ashamed of. It is what it is, and

403
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,199
Speaker 2: proud that I survived it because you know, a lot

404
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,000
Speaker 2: of kids I went to school with they didn't and

405
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:20,320
Speaker 2: there was a lot of crime and kids I went

406
00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,639
Speaker 2: to school with who were murdered and or who conducted murders.

407
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,600
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not talking about lots, but it was

408
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:31,439
Speaker 2: pretty rough upbringing. And I didn't realize that until I

409
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:36,240
Speaker 2: joined the cops and looked back. And I always thought

410
00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,359
Speaker 2: we were really rich living in Berkeley, because I wasn't cold,

411
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:46,840
Speaker 2: I wasn't hungry, and you know, I wasn't neglected. And

412
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,520
Speaker 2: there are a lot of kids who were in that boat,

413
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,080
Speaker 2: not all of them, but some of them. And so

414
00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,680
Speaker 2: I thought, oh, we must be the rich people. And

415
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,080
Speaker 2: then I went to North Sydney as a probationary constable.

416
00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,280
Speaker 2: I'm driving around Mosman looking at these houses and thinking,

417
00:20:58,880 --> 00:20:59,880
Speaker 2: maybe we weren't rich.

418
00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,520
Speaker 1: Suddenly that house wasn't that big after all.

419
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,800
Speaker 2: No, it kept growing. Is we have more kids. So

420
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,480
Speaker 2: I was the third of four kids, and I was lucky.

421
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:12,639
Speaker 2: I had an older brother and sister at school, so

422
00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:17,040
Speaker 2: I kind of felt protected at high school by them. Yeah,

423
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,399
Speaker 2: but my parents were just battlers and they worked hard,

424
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,080
Speaker 2: and my dad worked in the steel works. And yeah,

425
00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,000
Speaker 2: when I wanted to join the police, you know, I

426
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:28,280
Speaker 2: left home at eighteen.

427
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:32,119
Speaker 1: And you know what made you think joining the police,

428
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,840
Speaker 1: because back then it wasn't a career for women or no,

429
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,440
Speaker 1: it was a career that rather odd that women would

430
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 1: even want to join the police.

431
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. I know, even now, Garry.

432
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 1: I know we've progressed. Come on, surely progressed we have.

433
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,840
Speaker 1: We have a little bit, one step forward, two steps back.

434
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 1: We'll get there eventually.

435
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:55,960
Speaker 2: Well, a couple of reasons, especially my brother had joined

436
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,359
Speaker 2: the police. He was two years older than me, but

437
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,200
Speaker 2: he didn't state he actually develop schizophrenia at nineteen when

438
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:06,399
Speaker 2: he was about two years in and left, and I

439
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,119
Speaker 2: guess seeing him in the police and all that sort

440
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:14,439
Speaker 2: of stuff, I thought, wow, that's so interesting, And I

441
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,640
Speaker 2: really wanted to help people. I thought, maybe I've got

442
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 2: something to contribute to the community. And I have almost

443
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:28,080
Speaker 2: an obsessional fascination with people. And their motivation for doing things.

444
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 2: And you know, I think it was an NYPD officer

445
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,679
Speaker 2: said that being in the cops is like having a

446
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,439
Speaker 2: front road ticket to the best show on Earth, and

447
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 2: because you just exposed to everything. And I'm always being

448
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,399
Speaker 2: curious about why people do what they do, Why did

449
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 2: this person commit this crime? Or you know, criminals don't

450
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 2: have a great big X on their back. They're just ordinary,

451
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 2: mundane people a lot of the time. But their motivation

452
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 2: really terrested and fascinated me.

453
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 1: Is a fascinating view into the world, the world that

454
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 1: most people. I think that's the obsession people have with

455
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,560
Speaker 1: crime and true crime stuff. It's a world that most

456
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:16,320
Speaker 1: people fortunately don't get to see. But what is behind

457
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 1: that curtain? Why do people do these type of things?

458
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and you never know what people are going through

459
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 2: what you know, everybody has their bad day. And I

460
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,119
Speaker 2: remember when I was probationary constable, this woman came into

461
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,680
Speaker 2: the police station and I was the reserve constable behind

462
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 2: the counter and she said, she's probably in the fifties.

463
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 2: I've just read in the Sydney Morning Herald, but that

464
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:44,959
Speaker 2: my son's fiance has been murdered. And she was really distrappsed,

465
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 2: so I, you know, got onto the saw, this sergeant

466
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 2: got onto the detectives came down. Turns out her son

467
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 2: had had a domestic with the fiance had punched her.

468
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,440
Speaker 2: They were both drunk. She died as a result of

469
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 2: the assaults. So then we had to tell her that

470
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 2: it was her son, and she was devastated and she

471
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 2: kept fainting and I had to care for her that day.

472
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 2: And she said to me, you know what, she said,

473
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 2: how do I face that poor girl's parents? She said,

474
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 2: you always think about the family of the person who's

475
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 2: been murdered. She said, how do I live with this

476
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,440
Speaker 2: knowing that my son did this? You know, I really

477
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 2: felt great compassion for her. I just thought, of course,

478
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 2: you know, the victim's family completely and utterly devastated. But

479
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:37,160
Speaker 2: this poor woman, she was just like so shocked. And

480
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 2: this guy who did the murder, his brother was a

481
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 2: police officer. It was just the most.

482
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 1: Bizarre thing shows And yeah, you're a kid back then

483
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,439
Speaker 1: when you look at it, and I look back at

484
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 1: some of the things I saw and did as a

485
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,160
Speaker 1: police officer, but you didn't really have time to reflect

486
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 1: on what it was. But what you just touched on

487
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 1: there the crime murders at the extreme, but any crime

488
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 1: affects so many many people.

489
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:03,159
Speaker 2: Absolutely.

490
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 1: You see the parents of offenders that come in and

491
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,880
Speaker 1: you know, they've done everything in their power to put

492
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 1: their kid. They love their kid, They've tried to do

493
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 1: everything they can and the kid's gone off track for whatever reason,

494
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 1: and it impacts on them. But the fact that you

495
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,879
Speaker 1: could understand that, I think that probably having that type

496
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 1: of understanding of the nuances that come into play with crime,

497
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 1: well that carried you all the way through your career.

498
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And I think for me, empathy and compassion

499
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 2: and even for lots of people. And you know, like

500
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 2: I said, criminals don't have the big X on their back.

501
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 2: I remember when I was in GDS again, we got

502
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 2: called to a shoppy at shoplifting at will Worse at

503
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 2: Crowsness and this woman had stolen a leg of lamb.

504
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,200
Speaker 2: Who steals a leg of lamb? Why are you stealing

505
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 2: a leg of lamp? Is because you want to feed

506
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,360
Speaker 2: your family? Like it was just heartbreaking to me. Those

507
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 2: sorts of stuff, those sorts of incidents really you know,

508
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 2: resonated with me and left an impact and I just thought,

509
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:08,640
Speaker 2: poor woman like that you have to steal a leg

510
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 2: of lamb, and they wanted her charge, and she was charged,

511
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 2: and she just had this blank look on her face

512
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 2: and almost like she'd given up, you know what I mean.

513
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 1: And horrible person that's trying to look after their children.

514
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 1: But you've mentioned the word empathy, and we use that

515
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 1: word a lot in the podcast here, and I do

516
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,919
Speaker 1: it in the context that the good police officers, the

517
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 1: good detectives that I know that I looked up to,

518
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 1: that were my mentors, all had that empathy absolutely in

519
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 1: their arsenal that they would understand people. And you did

520
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: criminology also negotiating, you've got to understand where people are

521
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 1: coming from, what's making them do what they're doing.

522
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 2: Absolutely, which has always been my fascination, is why you

523
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 2: know what look behind what is right in front of you,

524
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,239
Speaker 2: what's behind that? How have we arrived or how has

525
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 2: that person arrived at this point in their life life?

526
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 2: You know? And it's sometimes it's just tragic. Yeah, it's

527
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 2: really sad.

528
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 1: There is a lot of sadness there. But like any

529
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: person that's been in the police for long enough, you

530
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: would have seen some funny stuff too.

531
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yes, I did see a lot of funny things

532
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 2: and well dark humor, yes by them.

533
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: That's accepted on my catchkills, and I think we have

534
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 1: explained it enough. People don't get to spend over forty

535
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 1: years in the cops as long as you do without

536
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: being able to see some light or humor in the darkness.

537
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 1: Otherwise you're just going to destroy yourself.

538
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 2: Absolutely.

539
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 1: So yeah, our listeners are accustomed to the dark kit.

540
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 2: Okay, So it's I think interesting the people that you

541
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 2: work with them. We talked before we came on here

542
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 2: about Mahonk, who is a legend.

543
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 1: We'll talk further about my O. Yes and shout out

544
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 1: to Wayne Gordon.

545
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 2: How to Wayne Gordon, God love you, Monk. I was

546
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 2: involved in the rest of IIV Malatt and Mahonk. Wayne Gordon,

547
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 2: detective sergeant with a very deep voice and very tough

548
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 2: and very big and very intimidating, was the primary negotiator

549
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 2: on our team. So there were four of us on

550
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 2: the team. There was Mahonk, John O'Reilly, Peter Gillham and

551
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 2: myself as a team lad. And we got called out

552
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,360
Speaker 2: told four o'clock tomorrow morning, got to be at Campbelltown

553
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 2: Police Station. Didn't know what the job was, had no

554
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 2: idea whatsoever. Get out there. We're actually going to go

555
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 2: and lock up a serial killer. And I was like, right, geez,

556
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 2: this is a bit scary. And they said, we want

557
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 2: you to negotiate him out because you know, we don't

558
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 2: know what he's got in his house. It's too dangerous

559
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 2: for his protection and for the cops and all the

560
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 2: rest of it. We're going to do it as negotiation.

561
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 2: Happy days, Mahonk with his due voice, and because we

562
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 2: knew that Malatt was a person who was really because

563
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 2: I read some of the brief that morning, I didn't

564
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 2: know who he was before that seemed to be a

565
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 2: person that was very much focused on power and establishing

566
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 2: power with his victims. That he would not respond to

567
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 2: somebody like me saying would you please come out? He

568
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 2: needed equal power, and Mahonk was the person with that

569
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 2: equal power. I'm de turktive, Sergeant Wayne Gord, you know

570
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 2: that sort of thing. So we really had to think

571
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 2: about how we were going to do it, and we

572
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 2: talked about being strong and assertive from the very beginning

573
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 2: of the negotiation and not being so complacent, but more directional.

574
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 2: Not if you come out when you come out, this

575
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 2: is what will happen, so setting the tone from the outset,

576
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,719
Speaker 2: and then as we were driving out there, it was

577
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 2: like a scene out of you know, a movie. There

578
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 2: were like, I don't know, thirty police cards.

579
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 1: It was a huge operation.

580
00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 2: At like five thirty in the morning, We're driving out

581
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 2: and there's blue lights. I'm very silent in the back

582
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 2: streets are going from Campbelltown out to where he lived,

583
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 2: and I was like wow, And I said to mahonk, look,

584
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 2: I just want to say, we really can't afford to

585
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 2: fuck this up.

586
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: So that's your sage advice before the exactly exactly don't

587
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 1: flung up.

588
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 2: And he said, yeah, thanks for that. I said, no, really,

589
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 2: we really, I said, I'm a bit worried that this

590
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 2: could turn into a siege, so we just have to

591
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 2: be like forceful from the get go. And obviously he

592
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 2: didn't need to be told that. He knew that, but

593
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 2: I was sort of like putting my fingers onto him

594
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 2: just to make sure he got the message. We don't

595
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 2: want to be here this time tomorrow morning with a

596
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 2: serial killer.

597
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: But yeah, there was there was a lot of pressure

598
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: on there because of the nature of the crime. It

599
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: was as big as it gets. Yeah, in the history

600
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: of policing with taking down Ivan Malat, it was crucial

601
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: from the arrest at the time, the stuff that was

602
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 1: found in his place and everything that. Yeah, it was.

603
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 2: Really amazing, honestly, Gary, because you know, mahnk rang and said,

604
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 2: I'm detective Da Da Da Da da Da. Is Ivan

605
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 2: Mallet there? And he said, no, he's not here, like

606
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 2: and this is at six am. He was as bright

607
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 2: as a button. He and I just thought, wow, this guy.

608
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 2: You know, most people answer the phone on a Sunday

609
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 2: morning at that hour, go you know what's going on.

610
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 2: Not him, And that was pretty scary. And then after

611
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 2: he came out and by the way, my husband was

612
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 2: a sniper on that job.

613
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 1: To just say, it's like a date night.

614
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 2: His last job as a sniper. Actually it was date night.

615
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: Let's go arrest a serial kill. That's beautiful. Your relationship

616
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: just rocks.

617
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah, but the investigators, like, you know, we

618
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 2: went because we were actually around the corner and up

619
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 2: the street when we did the negotiation. We went right

620
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 2: there and we went around to the house and honest

621
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,040
Speaker 2: to god, they were going over every blade of g

622
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 2: in that fronty like it was just massive, nothing I'd

623
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 2: ever seen. It was really those investigators did such a

624
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 2: fantastic job. And it was even just looking at his

625
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 2: photo before we went there. I looked at the photo, thought,

626
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 2: this guy looks so powerful. He was just very Oh,

627
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 2: I don't even know what they were intimidating.

628
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: I've seen him in prison, any put off and or

629
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: there was something. Yes, you looked and there's something strange

630
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: going on there. There was that whole power thing and

631
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 1: just the brutal nature of the crimes. But yeah, full

632
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: credit to everyone that involved in it. And I'm glad

633
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 1: Mohonk didn't fuck up.

634
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, me too, we might be still there. It was

635
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 2: a fantastic job.

636
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: Can you bring this to a closure. My first experience

637
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 1: with Mahonk, and this is always said with the greatest respect,

638
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: I think I was in homicide. He was in gang squad,

639
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: and there was a job that overlapped and I didn't

640
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: really know him. It was relatively early in our careers,

641
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: and I'm on the phone to him and Mahonk in

642
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: the steep negotiat his voice basically he told me to

643
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: pull my head in and so that was waving the

644
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: red flag of the bull. So I up the ante

645
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: and I think we're saying threats to each other, what

646
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: we're going to do, blah blah blah. And then Mahonk

647
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: just switched and went, I man, that's all right, okay,

648
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 1: we'll do that. There was a toughness about him, but

649
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: there was a softness about him to not a softness.

650
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: He presents as this rough, tough, knock him down type guy,

651
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: but he was a deep thinker too, or.

652
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 2: He is a deep He is a deep thinker. And

653
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 2: I have to say I had a bit of a

654
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 2: drama one day at work and I was really upset

655
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 2: and I walked out of a meeting crying like a

656
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 2: big blubber and it was a personal thing. And he

657
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 2: came down to my office and he just opened the

658
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 2: door and came and gave me the biggest hug and said,

659
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 2: you're right, darling, you know, and just really Mahonk has

660
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 2: a tenderness, yes, and when you see it, he really

661
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 2: does have a heart. Yeah that is big. You know,

662
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 2: he's very very He's got a very emotional side that.

663
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, that people don't see and he doesn't allow people

664
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: to see. And his reputation preceded him, I think all

665
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: over the place. Some of the stories I don't know

666
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 1: if there's true, but my whole when computers come in,

667
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 1: like what is this ship that's not going to catch on?

668
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 1: And I don't know if it's true, So I apologize

669
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: if it's not true. But it's pretty funny if it is.

670
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 1: That he was fighting with a computer, as you would

671
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 1: imagine Mahonk would fight with a computer and picked it

672
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: up and across the root. There problem solved. No, no

673
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 1: more computer. Now can we get back to the typewriter? Yes?

674
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 2: Is there a constable who can use a computer? Get

675
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 2: in here?

676
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,879
Speaker 1: But no, I liked him. I like working with him,

677
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 1: and I just I always smile on my face when

678
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: with that first conflict and it wasn't personal, it's just okay,

679
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: that's fair, all right, at least you stood up to me.

680
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 1: Let's let's move forward now.

681
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 2: So and I think that, you know what, that's a

682
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 2: really big thing. When you have somebody like that that

683
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 2: can be quite intimidating. And if you have a bit

684
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 2: of a before whatever with them and they can just say, okay,

685
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 2: well let's get on with it now, that's amazing.

686
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 1: I thought, here we go. Because he was obviously senior

687
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:08,720
Speaker 1: to me, I get here we go. I've got myself

688
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,919
Speaker 1: into trouble again. But no, right, okay, I understand your point. Well,

689
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: maybe we could do it this way.

690
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 2: Yes, And you know what the other thing is, I

691
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 2: was a senior, comfortable, and I was the team leader.

692
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,320
Speaker 2: And the other three on the team were all sergeants,

693
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 2: and at one time it was Graham White as well.

694
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 2: He's also fantastic, and they were so respectful of me.

695
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 2: But because I had more experience been in the negotiators

696
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 2: for a longer period, I was made a team leader.

697
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 2: But just the work we did together and everything, it

698
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 2: was such a great model and it worked really well

699
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 2: and they were so respectful and I'm so grateful for that.

700
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think when the pressures on on the sharp

701
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: end of police, and when we say sharp end, I

702
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: always throw this out because we know general duties. People

703
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 1: that spend the career in general duties. They might have

704
00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: the profile or whatever, but we know the type of

705
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 1: they do. They're the first responders. They're the ones that

706
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:04,919
Speaker 1: go in and don't know what they're going to face.

707
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 1: But when you're working at negotiating stage, if you're not

708
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: flirting with rick and just concentrating on doing your job

709
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 1: instead of making eyes at the tactical team leader. There's

710
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: a lot of pressure there and everyone has got to

711
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 1: that's when all the training, all the skill set has

712
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 1: to really kick in. And it doesn't surprise me that

713
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 1: three strong personalities, but they fell in the line on

714
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 1: that because the job was so important. The job comes first. Yeah,

715
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: it's not about personalities.

716
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 2: And I think going out to and working with the

717
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 2: GDS front line with negotiation jobs, it was really fantastic

718
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 2: for me too because I got back to the sharp

719
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 2: end as such of policing and all the commanders were

720
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 2: always fantastic. You know, they welcomed us in. They said, look,

721
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 2: you know, this is what's happening. Da da da da da.

722
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 2: And you know, I have to say one time I

723
00:36:58,000 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 2: did say, look, this is not going to take too

724
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,240
Speaker 2: long because I've got a hair appointment.

725
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 1: I love, this is the real behind what's the issue.

726
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 1: I know it's a bad siege, but I've got this

727
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: hair appointment and that salon is so hard to get

728
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 1: into it.

729
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we've got to be out of here in

730
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 2: forty five minutes.

731
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,319
Speaker 1: Did you explain that to the person that was top

732
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 1: of my hair? The person locked up. Excuse me? Do

733
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 1: you realize there are other things happening?

734
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 2: That's right, Absolutely, it's worth it to everybody else for

735
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 2: me to get my hair done.

736
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 1: Okay, well, I'm just saying, at least you didn't send

737
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: Rick in resolve without any haven't got time to negotiate

738
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: Rick going and get him.

739
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know what, so many vulnerable people in

740
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 2: neg jobs. Just sorry, I'm digressing. I just remembered. One

741
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 2: was that cremorn. This guy was threatening to stab himself

742
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 2: and he was standing on top on the roof of

743
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 2: a block of units, and we're in the block of

744
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 2: units next door, standing out on a balcony, and I

745
00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 2: got that was the first negotiated there. I don't even

746
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 2: think the tactical guys were there. And there was a

747
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 2: young policewoman who was negotiating with him. So I went

748
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 2: up with her and I said, keep going. I'll just

749
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 2: be here next to you. Da da da da da.

750
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 2: And anyway, he ran through a plate glass window back

751
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 2: into the unit and I said, he's coming to get

752
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 2: us upstairs. I said, quick shut the door, you know,

753
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:25,799
Speaker 2: like close the front because we had the front door open.

754
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 2: I thought he's coming up here. To get us, and

755
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 2: we tried to shut the front door and the deadlocks

756
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 2: on and it couldn't open it, all that sort of stuff.

757
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 2: It was quite you know when I think back now,

758
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 2: and she was so fantastic, this young girl. And then

759
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 2: the tactical team came and this guy said, you know what,

760
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 2: I've called all my friends in the last three days.

761
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 2: His girlfriend left him or something, and he said, nobody

762
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 2: will talk to me. He said, I'll come out if

763
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 2: you give me a hug. I said to the tactical blokes,

764
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 2: I said, he'll come out for a hug. And I said,

765
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 2: are you stupid? What's wrong with you? You're not going

766
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 2: to give them a stick? I said, do you want

767
00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 2: to be here all night? They said no. I said,

768
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 2: I'm giving nam a hug. Anyway, he came to the

769
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 2: door and I said, this is what's going to happen.

770
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 2: There's all these guys. They've got black year on the

771
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 2: da da da da, and they're going to search you

772
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 2: and then you know, after that, we'll have a hug

773
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 2: we can hug, and then you're going to go to

774
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 2: the hospital explain the whole process. But they were mortified

775
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 2: that I was, and I said, well, if that's what

776
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 2: gets him out, that's what gets him out.

777
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: So I like that type of policing and thinking outside

778
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,800
Speaker 1: of the square. Like it. Yeah, you would have broken

779
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,760
Speaker 1: every rule that you were taught and but it helps

780
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 1: resolve the situation. It's a common sense approach.

781
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 2: And when he came out, he sat in the police car,

782
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 2: in the back of the police car and they were

783
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 2: going to take him to the hospital. And I said,

784
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 2: I'm not coming to the hospital with you, but you're

785
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 2: safe and the police will take you and all that

786
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 2: sort of stuff. And he said, he looked around, he said,

787
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 2: all of this just for me, because you know, there

788
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:51,800
Speaker 2: are a lot of cops there. He was armed, the

789
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 2: tactical team of their the nags, the GDS. It was

790
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 2: a big response. And he said, I can't believe that

791
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 2: all of this was just for me, that you helped me,

792
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 2: you know. And I said, well, that's what we're here for.

793
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: That's good if you can help people in that way.

794
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,800
Speaker 1: Because of that, there's some bizarre situations in those sieges, isn't.

795
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 2: There, And people get into a situation and then they

796
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 2: just don't know how to get out of it. They

797
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 2: throw the grenade in it explodes, and they go, oh

798
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 2: my god, there's a grenade exploded. What do I do now?

799
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 1: Well, I think the role of a good negotia there

800
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 1: is to do escalate when it's like that, because you can.

801
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,439
Speaker 1: You can ramp it up or take it take it down. Yeah,

802
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 1: so it's a fascinating side of it. You did another

803
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 1: siege while we're talking about as a negotiat the Caangy Siege.

804
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 1: Can you describe the situation there because I remember that

805
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 1: because it was such an unusual situation and a lot

806
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:43,840
Speaker 1: of layers to it. Yeah, it was.

807
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 2: There were three offenders. The main one was a guy

808
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 2: called lead Beater, and he had a delusional fixation that

809
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 2: he was setting up his own religion, all this sort

810
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 2: of stuff. I think basically he wanted to suicide, but

811
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 2: he couldn't bring himself to do it. He had a

812
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 2: young gay lover who was Robbie Steel and who was

813
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 2: much younger than him. And another guy who actually was

814
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 2: who actually came out before I came on my ship

815
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 2: for the next I didn't have much to do with him.

816
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 2: But they had killed people across three states. They'd gone

817
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 2: from Queensland, South Australia, New South Wales and just gone

818
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 2: up to people in campgrounds and just shot them dead

819
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 2: for no apparent reason.

820
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 1: How many people did they kill? Do you recall they

821
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 1: killed five people? Right, Okay, And that was in nineteen

822
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 1: ninety three, ninety three, So the crime wave that these

823
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 1: guys were going on, how long did that last?

824
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 2: I think it was about nine days across Queensland, New

825
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 2: South Wales. They yeah, they just were crazy, just killing

826
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 2: random people, just killing random people. And they took some

827
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 2: people hostage up at Hanging Rock up at Cany and

828
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 2: there are a couple of kids inside and Mike Willacy

829
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 2: got on the phone to the For some reason, he

830
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 2: was able to get through to the house phone, so

831
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 2: we couldn't actually get through and he was talking to them,

832
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:15,800
Speaker 2: which was a big problem for us. Yeah. Absolutely, And

833
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 2: so what happened The tactical team flew up there and

834
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,919
Speaker 2: we actually did the negotiation from Sydney from the old

835
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,879
Speaker 2: cob in the Remington Building, which was the first time

836
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,320
Speaker 2: we'd done it at distance. You know, it was a

837
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 2: couple of hundred kilometers. So we had constant contact with

838
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 2: the tactical team about what was going on with the negotiations,

839
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,800
Speaker 2: and once again mohonk was one of the negotiators, and

840
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 2: he should have gotten accommodation for that. I don't think

841
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 2: that he did, but he really should have because he

842
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:43,879
Speaker 2: did a fantastic job.

843
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: And so.

844
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 2: Leadbeater was fixated on killing himself and he said, all right,

845
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 2: I'm going to come out now, I'm going to go

846
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 2: in a blaze of glory and all this sort of stuff.

847
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 2: And he come outside the house. They don't do that.

848
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 2: He come outside the housing high behind a book because

849
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 2: he was actually scared.

850
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 1: A big game.

851
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, talk up a big game exactly. Anyway, we managed

852
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 2: to negotiate Robbie Steele, his lover out. We said, you know,

853
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 2: Robbie's got a lot to live for. He was getting

854
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:17,839
Speaker 2: a big compensation payout. He had a brain injury from

855
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 2: the car ax and all this sort of stuff. And

856
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,839
Speaker 2: what was the most fascinating thing was that eventually led

857
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:26,919
Speaker 2: Better said, yeah, okay, Robbie can go. And we said

858
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 2: you're going to have to. You'll have to tell him

859
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 2: to go because he won't listen to us. So led

860
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 2: Better negotiated with Robbie Steele for Robbie to go. Is

861
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 2: that bizarre?

862
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:39,800
Speaker 1: It is bizarre.

863
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 2: And not only that these people had killed people, and

864
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,760
Speaker 2: when they were saying there goodbyes, they're crying so much emotion.

865
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 2: It was just the most bizarre thing I thought at

866
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,320
Speaker 2: the time. On the one hand, you can be cold

867
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 2: blooded killers and on the other hand, you're showing all

868
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 2: this emotion about separating from it each other. So Robbie

869
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 2: Steele came out Ledbetter eventually killed himself inside the stronghold

870
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:12,439
Speaker 2: and wrote a note and he said, you know, thank

871
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 2: you to us, to the police. You know, I really

872
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 2: appreciate everything you did and all that sort of stuff,

873
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 2: which you know, it's kind of like it's just bizarre,

874
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 2: isn't it.

875
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,880
Speaker 1: It is bizarre. And the things that you see and

876
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,359
Speaker 1: do in that role as in the gay Shader, How

877
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: did it impact on you personally in those type of things,

878
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 1: because the pressure pressures on, Like I know, like I've

879
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 1: been to those sieges and you know, we might turn

880
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 1: up as a tactical police and you guys are on

881
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 1: the loud hailo or on the phone trying to talk

882
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 1: these people out. And I've been at some sieges where

883
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: I get so bored. With the negay Shaders.

884
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 2: I used to get bored.

885
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're laying there You're thinking, you're laying there

886
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 1: with your rifle or whatever, and you're thinking, why don't

887
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: you say this to him, because you're trying to fill

888
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 1: in the time and you're hearing the gay shaders. And

889
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 1: I know there's a set pary to cole these very

890
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:03,879
Speaker 1: sound reasons why you're saying things. But sometimes I felt

891
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: like just getting up, give me the loud hailin may

892
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 1: he have a shot at it. But there's a lot

893
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,919
Speaker 1: of pressure. How did it impact on you personally after

894
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 1: a job like that, You're on a high or it

895
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 1: just drained.

896
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 2: Or yeah, I think just drained. And sometimes I think

897
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 2: I did a job that went for well. It was

898
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,319
Speaker 2: a Monday morning. I started work, finished work, and at

899
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 2: like six pm got called out and it went till

900
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 2: about two pm the next day. We didn't get relieved.

901
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 2: I was so cactus. But we had fantastic training. Norm

902
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 2: Hazard set up the negotiators. Norm was just a genius

903
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 2: or he is a genius of a man in the

904
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 2: Cops legend. Just could think so strategically, he could think

905
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 2: sideways backwards in like he really was fantastic. And I

906
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 2: remember very early on he told me to stick to

907
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:56,840
Speaker 2: my guns. He said, if the tactical blokes you know,

908
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,319
Speaker 2: give you a hard time, you tell me and I'll

909
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 2: get up and for the rent, because you know.

910
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 1: He'd be good having Norman your Backpock.

911
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 2: Absolutely, because he would say, you know, the negotiators must

912
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,319
Speaker 2: have as much input into the resolution as the tactical team.

913
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 2: The tactical team don't run it. The negotiators don't run it.

914
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 2: It's done together.

915
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 1: Good advice, a fantastic.

916
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 2: Advice, and Norm was fantastic. We had great psychiatrists with

917
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 2: us as well, so all of those things, the training,

918
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 2: the psychs were all really good, but it was very draining.

919
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,359
Speaker 2: And I remember one time when Rick and I were

920
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:31,839
Speaker 2: on call.

921
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, we went where were we going to spend Friday night?

922
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 2: Exactly three jobs in one day, and the third job

923
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 2: was a hostage job at Crow's Nest and it was

924
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 2: bucketing down rain and Rick said, oh, we've got a job.

925
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 1: You know.

926
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 2: He got the call first, and it's at Crowsnest hostage job.

927
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 2: Da Da da da da. Michael Diamond was the psychiatrist

928
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 2: and it was in a house and Grahame White was

929
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 2: the negotiator with Belinda Neil Graham as fantastic as a

930
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 2: negotiatow is so calm and I was a team leader,

931
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:08,439
Speaker 2: and anyway, Michael Diamond was there, and I said, whatever

932
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 2: you do. The tactical team actually got up into the

933
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 2: roof and above where this woman was being held hostage.

934
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 2: She'd been she's been held knife point. It was very

935
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 2: hard to get in there. Anyway, in the kitchen, we

936
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 2: set up a command post in the kitchen and I

937
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 2: said to Michael, whatever you do, Michael, if there's they're

938
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 2: going to fire anything, just hit the deck. Okay. He

939
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 2: said what I said, No, seriously, just hit the deck. Anyway.

940
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:38,319
Speaker 2: Sometimes you go into houses and they're a little bit hot.

941
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 2: So there's this set of false teeth on the kitchen sink, charming.

942
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 2: And then there's this box of chocolates on the dining table,

943
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:53,320
Speaker 2: and Michael's addicted to chocolate, as am I. And he

944
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 2: said to me, can't believe you bought these chocolates. You know,

945
00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 2: it's like four o'clock in the morning. Everybody's cactus and

946
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:02,319
Speaker 2: he's munching on the chocks. And I said they were

947
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 2: already here. I said, sorry, Michael, I should have told.

948
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: You they tastes so nice and different type of flavor

949
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: but eventually got.

950
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:16,759
Speaker 2: The guy out and he was very scary, that guy.

951
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,319
Speaker 2: But you know, the tactical team the next all works

952
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:22,800
Speaker 2: so well together. It was a good resolution. And that

953
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 2: poor woman she yeah, I won't go into all the details,

954
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 2: but she was fine in the end.

955
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 1: But it was terrifying situation.

956
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, really scary.

957
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 1: Tell me how much because when I was at those

958
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 1: sieges and I'm hearing what you guys are saying or communications,

959
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 1: how much work behind the scenes understanding the person you're

960
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:48,359
Speaker 1: talking to. So I imagine, yeah, let's say I've gone

961
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 1: off the rails, I've taken hostages. Do you then just

962
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 1: do a profile on the person, get as much understanding

963
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: about the person before you start speaking to them. What's

964
00:48:58,080 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 1: a protocol?

965
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:02,359
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, And also talking to the Sykes is really good.

966
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 2: So Murray Wright, who's now the chief forensic psychiatrist for

967
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:09,719
Speaker 2: New Southwell's Health, great guy. And Michael also in the

968
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 2: old days, got to think now Rod Milton Yeah yeah, yeah,

969
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 2: going right back investigations, Yeah absolutely, So they were really

970
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 2: so supportive. So you know, you go back to them

971
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 2: and say, Okay, this is what's happening, this is what

972
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 2: they've got, this is you know, their background, get as

973
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 2: much information as possible, and sometimes talking to the family

974
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 2: members of the offender really helped. But then again sometimes

975
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 2: it didn't because you'd talk to them and say, look,

976
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 2: anything strange going on, any behavior recently? Oh no, no, no,

977
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 2: nothing wrong. He talks to the wall. But apart from that,

978
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 2: there's nothing.

979
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 1: You know, it's just like hard to get that purely objective.

980
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you've got to sort of discern the information

981
00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 2: that you're getting sometimes because yeah, but I think with

982
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 2: the support of the Sykes and everything really helped. And

983
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 2: also talking to people like Norm. I would ring Norm

984
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 2: up and say, look, you know what about this, this

985
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 2: is what's happened data daat are and he'd say, right, well,

986
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 2: I think maybe this or that. Talking to people who've

987
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 2: got a lot of experience, and talking to the tactical

988
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:22,840
Speaker 2: teams as well, getting their input and advice and and

989
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff. Really yeah, really, it was, honestly,

990
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 2: Gary fascinating just thinking about these people. And just also

991
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:33,400
Speaker 2: I speak very quickly.

992
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 1: I had to really blow it down.

993
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 2: Train myself to have a very monotone voice that was

994
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,759
Speaker 2: very slow and data ut so all of that sort

995
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 2: of stuff you really got to concentrate on what you're doing, and.

996
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 1: The stakes are very high too, Like did you ever

997
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:51,400
Speaker 1: have a situation where you've said something and the reaction

998
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:53,239
Speaker 1: you're thinking, oh, no, this is this is going to

999
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: end badly? Were there times times with that?

1000
00:50:56,560 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, we did have some funny situation like that.

1001
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:03,920
Speaker 2: There was one negotiator where we were because we used

1002
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 2: to say, we're here to help you, not to hurt you,

1003
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 2: and he said we're here to hurt you, not to help.

1004
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 2: You said, next, get him off.

1005
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 1: Okay, that's a faux pa. That's a bad one.

1006
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:21,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, kind of. Yeah, So just really well, I think

1007
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 2: the other thing is with the negotiators. You have four

1008
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 2: negotiators there, so as the primary negotiating, you always have

1009
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 2: the secondary right there because you know you might be able.

1010
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 2: You might be about to ring the person you forget

1011
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 2: their name, and they air to the phone. You go hullo,

1012
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 2: carry Gary, you know, because you just you know, they're

1013
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 2: just there to completely and utterly support you. That's the

1014
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:47,080
Speaker 2: only job. Your throat is getting dry. They're there with

1015
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 2: a bottle of water before you have to ask for it.

1016
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 2: They're just concentrating on you and everything that you need

1017
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:55,759
Speaker 2: because everybody knows that pressure is on.

1018
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:59,360
Speaker 1: You need that support. I had an experience trying the

1019
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:04,200
Speaker 1: negotiape with negotiators and I lost them negaotation. I was

1020
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:08,359
Speaker 1: a crime manager at Chatswood and the person, a male,

1021
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 1: had stabbed his partner and abducted some kids and said

1022
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 1: he's going to kill the kids and disappeared. I was

1023
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 1: at home. I got called, so I came into that

1024
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:20,279
Speaker 1: and I'm running that investigation. We didn't know where he was.

1025
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:22,879
Speaker 1: We had the car circulated, we put an amber alert out,

1026
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 1: and all the things that you do. And I thought

1027
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 1: it'd be a good idea to get the negotiaters involved

1028
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:29,319
Speaker 1: in this because at some point in time we're going

1029
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 1: to find him. But trying to negotiate with the negotiaters. No,

1030
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:36,319
Speaker 1: when you know where he is, then we'll call someone out.

1031
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:39,880
Speaker 1: I'm arguing the point, but I lost the negotiation battle

1032
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:42,759
Speaker 1: with the negotiaters. I got off the phone and said,

1033
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 1: did you get him out? Boss? I said no, they

1034
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 1: out negotiated. But when we did eventually find the person,

1035
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 1: he'd gone in the state and he still had the kids,

1036
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 1: and we got a phone number and I was on

1037
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 1: the phone to him, and I still remember this. I've

1038
00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 1: been up all night and I'm speaking to him saying

1039
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:03,800
Speaker 1: along the lines of what you're saying. Look, the lady's

1040
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 1: not dead. It hasn't gone too far. We can yeah,

1041
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 1: we can sort this out. All the things that are

1042
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 1: obvious that you say to de escalate. And we're talking

1043
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:14,719
Speaker 1: away on the phone, and why we're talking. We're trying

1044
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 1: to get a fix on where he is an organized

1045
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:20,880
Speaker 1: tactical police to come and callding off the area, and

1046
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:24,080
Speaker 1: I've said something and he's getting agitated. I'm trying to

1047
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 1: de escalate, and then at one point in time he

1048
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 1: said something, No, I'm not listening anymore and slammed the

1049
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 1: phone down, And before we got him back on the phone,

1050
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 1: that was the longest five minutes I've ever had in

1051
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,239
Speaker 1: my life. I'm just thinking, oh my god, is he

1052
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 1: killing the kids now? And then we just kept bringing

1053
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 1: eventually picked it up and it resolved and we got

1054
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 1: the tactical police. I was on the phone to him

1055
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 1: coming in and grabbing him. But that was my one

1056
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 1: experience of pressure. And I look back at my career,

1057
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 1: and you know, if we've had a long career, we've

1058
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:57,160
Speaker 1: all been in those situations at a high risk or whatever.

1059
00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:00,799
Speaker 1: But I still remember those five minutes and the boss,

1060
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 1: a commander, I won't mention his name. He's exited the

1061
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:08,320
Speaker 1: exit the police. He's come in because I tried to

1062
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:10,719
Speaker 1: call him out when it was all going on, when

1063
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:13,360
Speaker 1: the lady had been stabbed, the kids had been abducted,

1064
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:15,239
Speaker 1: and we couldn't find the person that's threatening to call

1065
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:17,280
Speaker 1: the kids. And he said, we'll call me if something happens,

1066
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:21,919
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, well, fucking something. It's happening right now, mate,

1067
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:26,439
Speaker 1: happening right now. He's come in for the morning because

1068
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 1: we've been up all night and walked in and I'm

1069
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 1: in my office just after that phone call, and he said,

1070
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 1: how's it going, Gary? Just fuck off?

1071
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:34,919
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1072
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, that was the That was the pressure. So yeah,

1073
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:42,279
Speaker 1: you guys doing it time and time again. It had

1074
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:44,360
Speaker 1: had to take the toll, but I would imagine you

1075
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:46,880
Speaker 1: become better at it too. The more experienced, Like in

1076
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:51,360
Speaker 1: anything you do in life, especially policing, you would be

1077
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 1: more confident when you pick it up because, Okay, I've

1078
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 1: seen this situation before. I've heard this situation before. Yeah.

1079
00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 2: Absolutely. And also sometimes some people are very easy to

1080
00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 2: get out, so we were sitting on the top of

1081
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 2: the Fairfax Tower at T. Laura when they used to,

1082
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 2: you know, print the papers out there, and this guy

1083
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 2: was threatening to jump off and it was like three

1084
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:16,800
Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning. We're hungry, so I said, and

1085
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 2: the rescue squad were there, and I said to the GDS,

1086
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:20,840
Speaker 2: can you go and get us some macas. So they

1087
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:23,879
Speaker 2: brought the macas up and this guy kept saying, I'm hungry,

1088
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 2: I'm hungry, I'm hungry. So we got the macas. We

1089
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:28,360
Speaker 2: were sitting in front of him eating the macs and

1090
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 2: the smell the macis is wafting over it. He said,

1091
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 2: can I have something to it? And I said no.

1092
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:42,799
Speaker 2: I said, well you can if you come back, come

1093
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:46,400
Speaker 2: back here. He came back for the macas well what

1094
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:48,719
Speaker 2: they were available. That's it. Mark Hutchins, I don't know

1095
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 2: if you know. Yeah, he went to a job where

1096
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:54,840
Speaker 2: the guy was threatening to jump off a railway bridge

1097
00:55:55,400 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 2: and he actually saw that the guy had empty packet

1098
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 2: of Winnie Blue or something. He said to one of

1099
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 2: the gens. First of all, he was in the surf

1100
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:11,560
Speaker 2: and when his page went off and back in the

1101
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:13,799
Speaker 2: day of pages and his wife's calling out to him

1102
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 2: the surf mark Mark, and everybody thought she was saying shark.

1103
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 1: So that would have been because he lived at Capra Cabana.

1104
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:22,680
Speaker 1: I lived there and see him out in the surf,

1105
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:23,760
Speaker 1: it's probably there exactly.

1106
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 2: So he goes in his board shorts and something goes

1107
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 2: to the job and anyway, so he sees this packet

1108
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:32,360
Speaker 2: of when he said to one of the do it

1109
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 2: go do my glove box, get a packet of smokes

1110
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:37,279
Speaker 2: out and so he lit up a cigarette. The bloke

1111
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:40,800
Speaker 2: was back in like two minutes because he wanted a cigarette.

1112
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:44,880
Speaker 1: See there, Like we talked the pressure and seeing here laughing,

1113
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 1: I can just makes me just smile thinking about those

1114
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 1: type of moments because you can't invent them.

1115
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 2: You can't invent them.

1116
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:54,719
Speaker 1: And that's where people talk about policing. It's a hard job.

1117
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:57,399
Speaker 1: It's a hard job, but it's rewarding in the most

1118
00:56:57,480 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 1: bizarre ways.

1119
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:02,919
Speaker 2: Absolutely couldn't write it. Fact is stranger than fiction.

1120
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:06,880
Speaker 1: Fantastic. Look, the time has flown. I've got all my

1121
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:08,759
Speaker 1: notes here and I'm not getting through any of them.

1122
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:12,000
Speaker 2: Carol, I'm telling too many worries.

1123
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:14,799
Speaker 1: But we'll take a break and when we get back

1124
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 1: we're going to delve further into your your career. Counter

1125
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:21,959
Speaker 1: terrorism because that was a big thing in your career. Also,

1126
00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 1: dignitary protection in Sydney Olympics, because that was a very

1127
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 1: fascinating time to be involved in placing. And I've got

1128
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:31,160
Speaker 1: to say it was the best three weeks of my career.

1129
00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:32,680
Speaker 1: Had so much fun.

1130
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 2: I probably signed your overtime.

1131
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:37,960
Speaker 1: I knew there was a reason why I loved you.

1132
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:41,560
Speaker 1: All Right, we'll take a break and we'll come back

1133
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:43,080
Speaker 1: for part too shortly excellent,