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Speaker 1: The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives

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Speaker 1: see a side of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For

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Speaker 1: 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what

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Speaker 1: I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.

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Speaker 1: I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking

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Speaker 1: the public into the world in which I operated. The

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Speaker 1: guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from

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Speaker 1: all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,

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Speaker 1: just like the people I talk to. Some of the

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Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one

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Speaker 1: who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join

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Speaker 1: me now as I take you into this world. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to part two of my chat with former maths

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Speaker 1: groom and international drug trafficker, Tim Smith. He tells how

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Speaker 1: his drug running business came to a crashing end and

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Speaker 1: talks openly about his time inside the notorious US prison system.

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Speaker 1: Tim also shares what he's doing now and his advice

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Speaker 1: for anyone tempted by the easy money of running drugs. Plus,

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Speaker 1: and I'm excited about this, we also get the inside

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Speaker 1: gossip on what really happens behind the scenes on Married

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Speaker 1: at First Sight. Tim Smith, welcome back. Part two, I

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Speaker 1: Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. Glad to be back.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, you talked up your skills flying helicopters and

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Speaker 1: making a shitload of money, but it did come unstuck.

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Speaker 1: The wheels came off the wagon. You were quite as

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Speaker 1: good as you thought you was.

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Speaker 2: Look, ironically enough, it wasn't me that brought the organization down.

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Speaker 2: It was the ground crew that has ultimately brought the

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Speaker 2: organization down. Those guys were hot, meaning they were under investigation,

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Speaker 2: and they just led them to me.

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Speaker 1: How did it play out? How did you get caught?

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Speaker 2: Look, the first ground crew, I know that they all ran.

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Speaker 2: A couple of them ran to Spain, a couple of

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Speaker 2: them down to Mexico. And so then my contact was

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Speaker 2: going to hook me up with this new ground crew.

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Speaker 2: And when you say ground crew, they're not the surfacing

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Speaker 2: your helicopter. The ground crew are the ones that are

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Speaker 2: bringing the drugs and coordinating that. It's only the drop-off

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Speaker 2: crew in the US. You're doing the transportation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So we had a meeting up in Abbotsford from this

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Speaker 2: new crew that were down in the US and he

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Speaker 2: was an engineer for Boeing aircraft.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I remember when I had lunch with him, I

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Speaker 2: didn't like him. I don't know what it was about him.

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Speaker 2: I just did not like him. Didn't click. Didn't like

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Speaker 2: his stories. His story didn't add up. And then when

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Speaker 2: I went back and talked to the guy that introduced us,

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Speaker 2: I said, I don't like.

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Speaker 1: You, mate. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And he said, why? I said, it's just a feeling

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Speaker 2: I got. He said some stupid things at that meeting

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Speaker 2: that you wouldn't say in such a a big meeting,

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Speaker 2: and I don't think he's got the stones to do this.

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Speaker 2: And then he told me, I said, so give me

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Speaker 2: some information that I don't end up in prison with

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Speaker 2: this guy's name on my paperwork, that I've got some

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Speaker 2: dirt on him. And he goes, so then he laid

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Speaker 2: it out what they used to do in boats. And

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Speaker 2: he goes, no, we did in boats for three years.

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Speaker 2: He's made millions. He just wants to get back in

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Speaker 2: the game. I said, oh, fair enough. And on that

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Speaker 2: first trip, everything went wrong that morning at the airport.

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Speaker 2: Couldn't get fuel. Went late. I told them I didn't

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Speaker 2: want to go, but they said, everyone's in place. We've

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Speaker 2: got to go. And I just didn't have a good feeling.

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Speaker 2: Tessa didn't have a good feeling and everything was going

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Speaker 2: wrong that morning, but they wanted me to go. So

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Speaker 2: off I go, pick the drugs up, head across the border,

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Speaker 2: flying down the mountain. I was going too fast that

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Speaker 2: morning and I started doing these big darts and then

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Speaker 2: like top gun around this area. Around this pit and

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Speaker 2: then dropped it in, threw the bags out. And I

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Speaker 2: still remember taking off. I thought, let's get the hell

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Speaker 2: out of here. I just don't have a good feeling

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Speaker 2: about today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I backed the helicopter up and it's almost like that

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Speaker 2: back to the future scene where I took off and

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Speaker 2: I just nosed it too hard in the beginning and

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Speaker 2: I started pulling up on the collective and realized we're

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Speaker 2: doing 80 miles an hour. Yeah. And the trees, I

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Speaker 2: haven't actually gained any altitude yet and the trees are

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Speaker 2: coming up. And at this point, I can't. I can't

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Speaker 2: stop the helicopter.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I just pulled everything with the collective. And I reckon

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Speaker 2: I cleared the trees by about two feet. And by

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Speaker 2: then I'm doing 100 miles an hour.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I just sort of looked back and went, fucking

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Speaker 2: good luck with that, boys. And, yeah, that morning I

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Speaker 2: was spotted going across the border but hadn't realised there

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Speaker 2: was something up there higher. A drone or something had

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Speaker 2: footage of me. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And so they didn't grab you when you.

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Speaker 2: Landed that time? They didn't grab me. They went and

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Speaker 2: stopped that convoy of trucks on the side of the road.

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Speaker 1: And there would be nothing in the paperwork that would

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Speaker 1: link you to the helicopter, I would imagine?

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Speaker 2: No, but when I landed- You're not signing for it.

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Speaker 2: They had split investigations going at that point. They pulled

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Speaker 2: those guys over on the side of the road and

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Speaker 2: asked them. And that guy that I didn't like, he

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Speaker 2: didn't even let them look in the back before he

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Speaker 2: He told, rolled everybody. He was 45 minutes, he was

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Speaker 2: on the side of the road giving his witness statement

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Speaker 2: before they even looked in the back of the car.

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Speaker 2: You didn't even hold out, talk to your lawyer.

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Speaker 1: Just take a chance.

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Speaker 2: Just take your chance with the lawyer. Don't give them everything.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, he gave them everything on the side of

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Speaker 2: the road. I got pulled up in Canada. And it

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Speaker 2: was ironic that that morning, because years later I would

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Speaker 2: be charged with people smuggling because of that morning.

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Speaker 1: What happened?

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Speaker 2: That morning when I dropped the drugs off, what I

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Speaker 2: forgot to say, and sometimes hard piecing it all together,

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Speaker 2: but it wasn't until I got charged years later in Canada.

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Speaker 2: That morning I got instructions to head over to another

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Speaker 2: field and pick a guy up under a tree. And

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Speaker 2: he was a big drug kingpin and needed to get

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Speaker 2: up into Canada and have some meetings but can't get

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Speaker 2: through the border because he's got a record. So I

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Speaker 2: picked him up. We flew back to Canada. I had

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Speaker 2: Terry and this guy on board. We thought he jumped

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Speaker 2: out at some point because all the doors opened, but

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Speaker 2: apparently he didn't close it and he thought that was funny.

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Speaker 2: I thought, I've just lost this guy. How am I

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Speaker 2: going to explain? He jumped out on the top of

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Speaker 2: a mountain and he's no longer here. I don't know

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Speaker 2: what happened to him. It wouldn't have been good. But anyway, years,

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Speaker 2: I dropped him off. We got pulled up on the

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Speaker 2: side of the road, which I thought was a little

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Speaker 2: bit weird. The RCMP pulled me up and just wanted

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Speaker 2: ID from me. They couldn't ID anyone else in the car,

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Speaker 2: just for me. And they said, oh, you know, you're

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Speaker 2: going a bit fast. But they just wanted to start

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Speaker 2: linking it all up. I should have been smart enough

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Speaker 2: to link it up. I had this bloke sitting next

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Speaker 2: to me. I didn't know what his name was. But

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Speaker 2: years later, I'd be charged for people smuggling, for smuggling

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Speaker 2: him up into Canada.

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Speaker 1: When you were inside, you were charged with it?

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Speaker 2: Eight years later.

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Speaker 1: Oh, right.

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Speaker 2: When I got deported from Canada.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Then they hit me with people smuggling and serious criminality

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Speaker 2: for that one guy one day.

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Speaker 1: That sounds heavy. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And he actually went back to the US the next day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But the fact is, I got him across the border

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Speaker 2: the day before.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So the technicality.

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Speaker 2: The technicality is you're a people smuggler.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You had to go back to Australia at some point

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Speaker 1: in time when the heat was starting to be on,

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Speaker 1: but that was for a family business?

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Speaker 2: Right. So what actually happened is it's sort of the

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Speaker 2: wheels are coming off the wagon. We're going to get

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Speaker 2: another landing crew. Yeah. And that was taking time. But

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Speaker 2: in the meantime, I got a phone call in the

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Speaker 2: middle of the night from a family member, from my brother,

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Speaker 2: and he said, you better get home. Mum's dying. And

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Speaker 2: I just went, I'd just spoken to her the day before.

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Speaker 2: She sounded fine. And I just couldn't compute it that day. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was about 3 in the morning. And ironically, I'd

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Speaker 2: counted all my money the night before. So I had

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Speaker 2: money all over this apartment. But it's what you focus on.

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Speaker 2: And by 7 o'clock in the morning, I'd bought a

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Speaker 2: ticket to get back to Australia. And by 9 o'clock,

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Speaker 2: I'm on that flight.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And whatever was in that apartment– I didn't care. I

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Speaker 2: put a key in the door and that was it.

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Speaker 2: I was gone. And the first flight was through San Francisco.

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Speaker 2: And I remember the U.S. authorities held me up for

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Speaker 2: a long time in San Francisco. And I'll always thank

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Speaker 2: the U.S.

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Speaker 1: For this.

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Speaker 2: The authorities or Susan Rowe, which was my district attorney

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Speaker 2: or prosecuting federal attorney, she actually phoned the hospitals. to

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Speaker 2: see whether my mum was actually dying. And they said, yes,

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Speaker 2: she is. And she said, let him go. We'll get

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Speaker 2: him on the way back.

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Speaker 1: Oh, that was decent.

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Speaker 2: So that's a bit of compassion there. And I found

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Speaker 2: that out later. And I've got no qualms with, you know,

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Speaker 2: I broke a law in a country, but they showed compassion.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's a bit of decency because they could

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Speaker 1: have played that against you.

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Speaker 2: They could have taken me right there and then. They

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Speaker 2: actually did due diligence and said, he'll be back and

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Speaker 2: we'll get him. And so I went home. Yeah, mum

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Speaker 2: had had a brain aneurysm and she was looking pretty tough.

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Speaker 2: She was only 49 at the time.

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Speaker 1: She's that young, isn't she?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I stayed about a week. I was talking

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Speaker 2: to my brother. I was talking to dad. I'm getting

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Speaker 2: a lot of pressure from Canada to come back and

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Speaker 2: just do a couple of days' work.

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Speaker 1: Your crew.

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Speaker 2: My crew, yeah, because I'd set all this stuff up.

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Speaker 2: And I said to dad, if mum goes– I'm going to,

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Speaker 2: you know, I was sort of the eldest. I've got

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Speaker 2: to help the family get through this and I might

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Speaker 2: move back to Australia for six months and just, you know,

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Speaker 2: we'll figure it out. But she started getting better over

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Speaker 2: the time I was there. So I said to my

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Speaker 2: brother and dad, I'm going to head back to Canada,

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Speaker 2: but I'm going to be back in two days. And

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Speaker 2: the doctor said, if she gets better, we're going to

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Speaker 2: move her to Brisbane. So I just figured I had

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Speaker 2: two-day run, get back, one-day run, flying back, two days work,

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Speaker 2: and then head back. But that's not how the plan

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Speaker 2: was going to take place.

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Speaker 1: What happened then?

225
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Speaker 2: When I got into LA, I still remember the Qantas

226
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Speaker 2: captain said, could everyone have their passports upon exiting the aircraft?

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Speaker 2: And I thought, that is really weird.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, not normal.

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Speaker 2: It's just not normal. So I got my passport out,

230
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Speaker 2: and then I walked to the door, and then I

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Speaker 2: handed it to the US Customs officer, and then It's

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Speaker 2: almost like time stops. That's when the sea of blue jackets,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't understand what ICE meant, Immigrations and Customs Enforcement.

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Speaker 2: And they just said, Mr. Smith, we've been waiting for

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Speaker 2: you for quite a while. Welcome to the United States.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So that's when the next adventure began.

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Speaker 2: That's when the next adventure started. You know, I was

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Speaker 2: about eight hours at the airport there, just waiting to

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Speaker 2: get transported.

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Speaker 1: Did you know what it was about? Had they put

241
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Speaker 1: the allegations or?

242
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Speaker 2: I walked into a room. Yeah. And I'd stayed calm

243
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Speaker 2: up until I got into this room and they said,

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Speaker 2: take your belt off and your shoelaces out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

246
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Speaker 2: You're charged with 36 counts of international drug smuggling.

247
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Speaker 1: Sounds heavy.

248
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Speaker 2: And I just went, oh, fuck, that's not good. 36 counts. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I'll give it to the police. They knew every frigging load.

250
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Speaker 1: That went across. Is that how many trips you made?

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Speaker 2: 36 trips, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Okay. Okay.

253
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Speaker 2: Yep, they knew every trip. So they're not stupid, I'll

254
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Speaker 2: tell you that. No, no. And so a funny thing happened.

255
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Speaker 2: Like this is my introductory into prison.

256
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I couldn't think of a lot of other funny things,

257
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Speaker 1: but go on.

258
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Speaker 2: Into the federal penitentiary system in the United States and

259
00:11:36,550 --> 00:11:40,050
Speaker 2: that small boy in central Queensland. I'm now going to

260
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Speaker 2: be transported. They're putting handcuffs on me and I remember

261
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Speaker 2: this little ice agent. I said little ice agent. Yeah.

262
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Speaker 2: Once he put the handcuffs on, he said, look, we're

263
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Speaker 2: going to walk outside this door and if you try anything,

264
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Speaker 2: I'm going to fuck you up. And I just thought, okay, well,

265
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Speaker 2: I'm not going to try anything. Welcome to America.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to be so impolite. Right.

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Speaker 2: He was literally going to smash me into the ground

268
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Speaker 2: like if I tried anything. Where am I going to run?

269
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Speaker 2: Like down the ramp? So we got into the, and

270
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Speaker 2: I'll say this is funny because this is how naive

271
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Speaker 2: I was. This is Tim, moron Tim, keep going through it.

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Speaker 2: We got into this car.

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Speaker 1: I'm in the middle.

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Speaker 2: I've got a nice agent here, one here, one detective here,

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Speaker 2: and one here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And off we go. And LA is a big place.

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Speaker 2: So you're driving along and they're talking about Mexican food.

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Speaker 2: I haven't eaten food for so long because the flight

280
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Speaker 2: over was shit and I was already going to get

281
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Speaker 2: Mexican when I got into LA anyway. I love Mexican food.

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Speaker 2: They're talking about Mexican food and I'm like, yeah, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to get the fajitas. I'm mostly going to get

284
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Speaker 2: a side of beans. I could really do with a

285
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Speaker 2: diet coke. Like I've already got my mental map.

286
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Speaker 1: You are a dickhead.

287
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Speaker 2: And then they started talking about the hotel they'll check

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Speaker 2: out in the morning. I'm like, I don't care when

289
00:12:54,940 --> 00:12:58,840
Speaker 2: we check out. I just assumed they were taking me

290
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Speaker 2: back to the hotel. We were going to have some Mexican.

291
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Speaker 1: Beautiful.

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Speaker 2: They were just going to lock me up in a

293
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Speaker 2: room next to them and then we'll head off to

294
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Speaker 2: Seattle the next day. It wasn't until we wheeled around

295
00:13:09,290 --> 00:13:12,070
Speaker 2: the corner and I just seen these massive gates and

296
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Speaker 2: I said, where are we? They go, jail? I said,

297
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Speaker 2: what are we doing here? I thought we were going for,

298
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Speaker 2: and I actually said, I thought we were going for Mexican.

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Speaker 1: They were hooked at you.

300
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Speaker 2: They're like, we're going for Mexican, dickhead. We are. You're

301
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Speaker 2: going to jail. And yeah, that was a rude awakening.

302
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Speaker 1: You're saying it with a smile on your face. Is

303
00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:34,400
Speaker 1: that your first time in custody? First time in custody.

304
00:13:34,700 --> 00:13:36,000
Speaker 2: Okay. LA County Jail.

305
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Speaker 1: Yeah.

306
00:13:37,220 --> 00:13:39,000
Speaker 2: Not even in the feds because they didn't have enough

307
00:13:39,059 --> 00:13:42,760
Speaker 2: room that night. The feds flowed over into county.

308
00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,020
Speaker 1: Now, I don't know if it's what we see on

309
00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:48,660
Speaker 1: the media, but LA County Jail doesn't seem like a

310
00:13:48,980 --> 00:13:51,380
Speaker 1: place you'd be going in too happily.

311
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Speaker 2: It's worse. You can't even imagine the sheer terror of

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Speaker 2: that night.

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Speaker 1: Well, I've articulated the fear of you're going to be

314
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Speaker 1: stood over, you're going to be bashed, you're going to

315
00:14:01,429 --> 00:14:04,410
Speaker 1: be killed. It's the whole range of things if you

316
00:14:04,510 --> 00:14:07,340
Speaker 1: go in there. And you have no idea. And as...

317
00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:11,500
Speaker 1: greater criminal as you and your mate Tezza are, I

318
00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,660
Speaker 1: don't think you'd be looked at as a newbie in

319
00:14:15,700 --> 00:14:17,830
Speaker 1: that type of situation.

320
00:14:18,330 --> 00:14:21,490
Speaker 2: Look, your first 10 days, I don't care what anyone says,

321
00:14:21,610 --> 00:14:24,710
Speaker 2: your first 10 days, you're literally, one, you're not taking

322
00:14:24,730 --> 00:14:28,890
Speaker 2: a shit because they take away every piece of dignity

323
00:14:28,970 --> 00:14:31,840
Speaker 2: from you. When you walk into that first jail cell,

324
00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,800
Speaker 2: there are 13 toilets lined up on that wall. There

325
00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:37,300
Speaker 2: are 13 shower heads lined up on the other wall.

326
00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:42,730
Speaker 2: There is no walls in between. These four are for whites.

327
00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,250
Speaker 2: These four are blacks. These four are for Mexicans. And

328
00:14:46,270 --> 00:14:48,550
Speaker 2: that last one up there is for everybody else. Right.

329
00:14:49,330 --> 00:14:53,390
Speaker 2: Don't use the blacks. Don't use the Mexicans. You're in

330
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Speaker 2: a whirlwind.

331
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Speaker 1: And the race divide too in there. It's very much

332
00:14:58,430 --> 00:15:01,230
Speaker 1: in the prison system there or it is here as well. But-

333
00:15:02,450 --> 00:15:04,870
Speaker 1: How did you navigate your way around? Did anyone– did

334
00:15:04,910 --> 00:15:08,930
Speaker 1: you befriend anyone or did anyone– Oh, lots of– In

335
00:15:08,970 --> 00:15:10,750
Speaker 1: the early days, I'm talking here.

336
00:15:11,050 --> 00:15:14,360
Speaker 2: You know, I went to a federal gladiator tank in

337
00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:18,660
Speaker 2: San Bernardino. I got transported out to San Bernardino from L.A. County,

338
00:15:19,060 --> 00:15:22,120
Speaker 2: and San Bernardino is quite a famous place. It's home

339
00:15:22,140 --> 00:15:25,540
Speaker 2: of the Hells Angels. McDonald's started in San Bernardino. It's

340
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:26,880
Speaker 2: the home of the Bloods as well.

341
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,700
Speaker 1: Oh, right. Where they sent you. They sent me out.

342
00:15:29,740 --> 00:15:32,640
Speaker 1: And the Gladiator tank. Now, for a description of a prison,

343
00:15:33,270 --> 00:15:34,170
Speaker 1: that's a bloodbath.

344
00:15:34,190 --> 00:15:39,170
Speaker 2: It's actually just a tank within the county jail.

345
00:15:39,230 --> 00:15:39,410
Speaker 1: Yeah.

346
00:15:39,730 --> 00:15:42,590
Speaker 2: And it's for the overrun of federal inmates, and the

347
00:15:42,650 --> 00:15:45,970
Speaker 2: county will look after feed and housing. But they don't

348
00:15:45,990 --> 00:15:48,790
Speaker 2: want to put any staff on it. So it's literally

349
00:15:48,810 --> 00:15:52,280
Speaker 2: just a cubicle tank. cube tank. It's got a concrete roof.

350
00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:53,460
Speaker 1: Four walls. You're not going to escape.

351
00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:55,960
Speaker 2: No, there's not one window in the joint. There's only

352
00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:57,920
Speaker 2: one door in and out. So they're not big on

353
00:15:57,980 --> 00:16:01,739
Speaker 2: fire pretension safety. Like if a fire breaks out, we're

354
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:02,300
Speaker 2: all buggered.

355
00:16:02,380 --> 00:16:03,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

356
00:16:03,540 --> 00:16:05,740
Speaker 2: And then you just open that up and the guard,

357
00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,120
Speaker 2: you've got your bedding with you and the guard just

358
00:16:08,140 --> 00:16:10,960
Speaker 2: looks at you and says, good luck. And you just

359
00:16:11,020 --> 00:16:14,360
Speaker 2: walk in and there's 180 guys in that room, you know,

360
00:16:14,460 --> 00:16:15,800
Speaker 2: bunk stack three high.

361
00:16:15,860 --> 00:16:19,940
Speaker 1: Yeah. You got through it. What skills do you, like

362
00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,640
Speaker 1: you're a good communicator, so you're not going to piss

363
00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,650
Speaker 1: people off to start with, but what skills helped you

364
00:16:25,690 --> 00:16:27,270
Speaker 1: survive in those real early days?

365
00:16:27,650 --> 00:16:28,370
Speaker 2: Negotiating.

366
00:16:28,610 --> 00:16:28,750
Speaker 1: Yeah.

367
00:16:28,830 --> 00:16:32,850
Speaker 2: And just, you know, God gave you two ears and

368
00:16:32,950 --> 00:16:35,130
Speaker 2: one mouth and use them in that direction.

369
00:16:35,390 --> 00:16:35,590
Speaker 1: Yeah.

370
00:16:35,710 --> 00:16:38,290
Speaker 2: Do a lot of listening, not a lot of talking. Okay.

371
00:16:38,310 --> 00:16:42,350
Speaker 2: You know, read a room, read an area. Yeah. Ask questions.

372
00:16:43,030 --> 00:16:48,430
Speaker 2: Don't piss anyone off. And... Yeah, just keep your head low.

373
00:16:48,450 --> 00:16:53,530
Speaker 1: Any fuck-ups you did in the first early period of

374
00:16:53,910 --> 00:16:55,880
Speaker 1: going in there because you were so naive to it?

375
00:16:55,890 --> 00:16:57,850
Speaker 1: It's not a world that you would have really known.

376
00:16:58,190 --> 00:17:03,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I had some incredible moments in time. Essentially, I

377
00:17:04,460 --> 00:17:06,840
Speaker 2: was sitting on a– I start my talk, I was

378
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,600
Speaker 2: sitting on a prison bus. I was chained to a

379
00:17:09,619 --> 00:17:12,860
Speaker 2: bloke next to me. Yeah. waiting to get onto Conair,

380
00:17:12,900 --> 00:17:16,530
Speaker 2: which was a 727 with the motors up high and

381
00:17:16,570 --> 00:17:18,070
Speaker 2: then the steps came down from the back.

382
00:17:18,090 --> 00:17:19,850
Speaker 1: Did you offer to fly it?

383
00:17:19,930 --> 00:17:21,370
Speaker 2: I reckon I could have flown it, but it was

384
00:17:21,390 --> 00:17:24,050
Speaker 2: that movie Nick Cage, Conair.

385
00:17:24,109 --> 00:17:24,669
Speaker 1: Yeah, Conair.

386
00:17:24,930 --> 00:17:28,139
Speaker 2: I was sitting directly on that plane, I mean on

387
00:17:28,180 --> 00:17:31,700
Speaker 2: that prison bus where Nick Cage was, chained to this

388
00:17:31,740 --> 00:17:35,060
Speaker 2: guy from Alabama and I struck up a conversation with him. Yeah.

389
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:36,880
Speaker 2: He's doing six life sentences.

390
00:17:37,220 --> 00:17:37,770
Speaker 1: What's he done?

391
00:17:38,250 --> 00:17:41,150
Speaker 2: Well, clearly he's murdered six people. I thought, why couldn't

392
00:17:41,210 --> 00:17:42,760
Speaker 2: I have got the bank robber at the front? Why

393
00:17:42,780 --> 00:17:43,340
Speaker 2: did I forget this?

394
00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:45,600
Speaker 1: Isn't there a nice fraud person I could speak to?

395
00:17:45,700 --> 00:17:47,840
Speaker 2: Why did I get this nutjob next to me? He said,

396
00:17:47,859 --> 00:17:49,639
Speaker 2: I don't give a shit. There's a lot more they

397
00:17:49,660 --> 00:17:52,070
Speaker 2: haven't found out. And I'm just like, God, I've got to.

398
00:17:52,420 --> 00:17:53,959
Speaker 2: And I'm chained to his waist.

399
00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:58,790
Speaker 1: So this is the full belt, the. Handcuffed to his waist.

400
00:17:58,930 --> 00:18:01,190
Speaker 2: His waist. And my leg was chained to his leg

401
00:18:01,250 --> 00:18:01,630
Speaker 2: as well.

402
00:18:01,850 --> 00:18:02,030
Speaker 1: Yeah.

403
00:18:02,090 --> 00:18:03,270
Speaker 2: There's no mucking around.

404
00:18:03,430 --> 00:18:06,050
Speaker 1: And it looks like, I've seen Con Air and it's

405
00:18:06,090 --> 00:18:08,710
Speaker 1: not dissimilar to what you see on that.

406
00:18:08,950 --> 00:18:11,750
Speaker 2: I watched a doco the other night and ironically enough,

407
00:18:11,950 --> 00:18:14,190
Speaker 2: they were talking about Charlie Bings and he was head

408
00:18:14,230 --> 00:18:15,940
Speaker 2: of the Aryan Brotherhood.

409
00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:16,359
Speaker 1: Okay.

410
00:18:16,540 --> 00:18:17,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

411
00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:17,740
Speaker 1: That was the white.

412
00:18:18,300 --> 00:18:23,409
Speaker 2: White supremacist group. He's currently at ADX in Florence, Colorado.

413
00:18:23,490 --> 00:18:23,710
Speaker 1: Yeah.

414
00:18:23,990 --> 00:18:27,230
Speaker 2: And that day I watched a movie scene because if

415
00:18:27,270 --> 00:18:31,230
Speaker 2: you listen to this doco on YouTube, that day this

416
00:18:31,270 --> 00:18:34,709
Speaker 2: convoy of US Marshals with one van came out. It

417
00:18:34,750 --> 00:18:36,850
Speaker 2: was actually for Charlie Bing or for Bing.

418
00:18:36,990 --> 00:18:37,510
Speaker 1: Ah, right, yeah.

419
00:18:37,750 --> 00:18:40,520
Speaker 2: And he just got convicted of 13 murders and they

420
00:18:40,540 --> 00:18:43,179
Speaker 2: were putting him onto my plane or the plane I

421
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:44,900
Speaker 2: was going on to take him back to ADX.

422
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:45,780
Speaker 1: Jesus Christ.

423
00:18:46,570 --> 00:18:48,530
Speaker 2: And once he was loaded on the plane, it was

424
00:18:48,550 --> 00:18:51,170
Speaker 2: like Hannibal Lecter, about 100 marshals all left.

425
00:18:51,369 --> 00:18:51,570
Speaker 1: Yeah.

426
00:18:51,830 --> 00:18:55,109
Speaker 2: And then the rest of us peasants, we dealt with

427
00:18:55,150 --> 00:18:57,850
Speaker 2: the other 50 marshals and they really liked their shotguns.

428
00:18:58,619 --> 00:19:01,020
Speaker 2: They had no problems pointing it at your head. Yeah.

429
00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:02,679
Speaker 2: And they do not like jokes.

430
00:19:03,940 --> 00:19:07,280
Speaker 1: There is something about the US prison system that, yeah,

431
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,740
Speaker 1: and it's the perception that, you see in the media

432
00:19:10,780 --> 00:19:13,790
Speaker 1: and documentaries and read about and all that, but they

433
00:19:14,010 --> 00:19:14,709
Speaker 1: play for keeps.

434
00:19:14,869 --> 00:19:19,730
Speaker 2: They're not joking around. They take transportation, the US Marshals

435
00:19:19,790 --> 00:19:24,190
Speaker 2: take their job very seriously, and it's nothing but weapons.

436
00:19:24,369 --> 00:19:28,720
Speaker 1: So I would imagine, and yeah, I think you'd be

437
00:19:28,820 --> 00:19:31,020
Speaker 1: bullshitting if you said you weren't. You would have been

438
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,160
Speaker 1: concerned and scared is not too strong a word.

439
00:19:34,340 --> 00:19:35,119
Speaker 2: Oh, shit scared.

440
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,750
Speaker 1: Right to start with going in there. When did you

441
00:19:38,790 --> 00:19:41,520
Speaker 1: feel like Like I'd imagine if I just get through

442
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,200
Speaker 1: one day, if I can survive today without being stabbed

443
00:19:44,220 --> 00:19:48,510
Speaker 1: or bashed or whatever, when did you start to feel like, okay,

444
00:19:48,650 --> 00:19:49,510
Speaker 1: I'm going to get through this?

445
00:19:50,220 --> 00:19:52,080
Speaker 2: You know, your first day on court's pretty scary.

446
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:52,700
Speaker 1: Yeah.

447
00:19:52,820 --> 00:19:58,109
Speaker 2: And that's the first real test of mental strength because

448
00:19:58,130 --> 00:20:01,030
Speaker 2: there was another helicopter pilot that got busted with the

449
00:20:01,070 --> 00:20:05,129
Speaker 2: helicopter in Blaine. He was a 23-year-old guy actually from

450
00:20:05,190 --> 00:20:08,340
Speaker 2: New Zealand. His story's on YouTube as well. He went

451
00:20:08,380 --> 00:20:11,359
Speaker 2: to his arraignment, the same arraignment that I went to,

452
00:20:12,869 --> 00:20:14,480
Speaker 2: and I got told I was going to do a

453
00:20:14,530 --> 00:20:16,650
Speaker 2: minimum of 87 years and a maximum of 113 years.

454
00:20:18,690 --> 00:20:20,650
Speaker 2: And my legs come out from underneath.

455
00:20:20,670 --> 00:20:21,430
Speaker 1: That's what you were told.

456
00:20:21,470 --> 00:20:22,810
Speaker 2: That's what the judge.

457
00:20:23,230 --> 00:20:24,250
Speaker 1: Oh, right. Okay.

458
00:20:24,290 --> 00:20:27,030
Speaker 2: The judge says, you've got 36 counts of international smuggling.

459
00:20:27,050 --> 00:20:28,470
Speaker 1: You look at it. Well, I suppose if they gave

460
00:20:28,510 --> 00:20:29,510
Speaker 1: you a cumulative census.

461
00:20:29,530 --> 00:20:31,490
Speaker 2: If they just, and that's what they do. They just

462
00:20:31,570 --> 00:20:32,230
Speaker 2: stack it up.

463
00:20:32,330 --> 00:20:32,510
Speaker 1: Yeah.

464
00:20:32,650 --> 00:20:35,229
Speaker 2: And my lawyer said, stand up. And I said, you

465
00:20:35,250 --> 00:20:38,300
Speaker 2: don't understand. My legs don't work. I just, I just calculate.

466
00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:40,500
Speaker 2: I'm going to be 107 by the, he goes, they're

467
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:44,399
Speaker 2: just trying to scare you. Mission accomplished. I'm. currently scared.

468
00:20:44,420 --> 00:20:47,200
Speaker 1: Your honor, I'm scared. I'm shitting myself. Yeah.

469
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,859
Speaker 2: So your lawyers just can't stand up. We're going to

470
00:20:49,900 --> 00:20:53,600
Speaker 2: get this knocked down. And you don't know, but that's

471
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,120
Speaker 2: the whole system is to put fear into you. My

472
00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,050
Speaker 2: lawyer didn't come and see me after that. He just,

473
00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,590
Speaker 2: I'll see you next week. He didn't explain that this

474
00:21:02,609 --> 00:21:04,750
Speaker 2: is just a scare tactic. I went back and had

475
00:21:04,790 --> 00:21:07,909
Speaker 2: to control that emotion and control that fear. that I'm

476
00:21:07,930 --> 00:21:09,969
Speaker 2: going to do 100 years. What's the point in going?

477
00:21:10,230 --> 00:21:12,030
Speaker 1: So you're looking around, this is my life for the

478
00:21:12,050 --> 00:21:13,320
Speaker 1: rest of my life.

479
00:21:13,340 --> 00:21:16,160
Speaker 2: Potentially the next 100 years, yeah. And that young guy

480
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,720
Speaker 2: got the same message. Yeah. He went back and hung

481
00:21:18,740 --> 00:21:19,880
Speaker 2: himself that night in the cell.

482
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:20,720
Speaker 1: Seriously.

483
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,040
Speaker 2: He didn't give it the time that it needed to

484
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,320
Speaker 2: just go, I'm in a pickle here. Yeah. Like there's

485
00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:31,020
Speaker 2: a way out. Fear just overcome and it doesn't take much.

486
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,010
Speaker 1: No, it's sad, you know, and people say, well, yeah,

487
00:21:35,290 --> 00:21:37,790
Speaker 1: if you've done the crime, you deserve to be inside.

488
00:21:37,850 --> 00:21:41,750
Speaker 1: But that type of thing that life's not worth living on.

489
00:21:42,130 --> 00:21:44,970
Speaker 1: And that's why your belt's taken, your shoelaces are taken

490
00:21:44,990 --> 00:21:47,780
Speaker 1: because it's so prevalent. And the cells are set up

491
00:21:47,820 --> 00:21:50,260
Speaker 1: so you can't take your own life. So if people

492
00:21:50,300 --> 00:21:53,700
Speaker 1: think jail's a soft place, it's set up so people

493
00:21:53,740 --> 00:21:55,899
Speaker 1: can't take their lives. That's the type of pressure.

494
00:21:56,300 --> 00:21:59,020
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it is pressure and you've got to work

495
00:21:59,060 --> 00:22:02,719
Speaker 2: through that for the next six to nine months of

496
00:22:02,810 --> 00:22:05,990
Speaker 2: negotiating your sentence because you're in the federal system now

497
00:22:06,010 --> 00:22:08,390
Speaker 2: and they have a 99.2% conviction rate.

498
00:22:09,050 --> 00:22:10,510
Speaker 1: God bless America. Yeah.

499
00:22:10,750 --> 00:22:14,909
Speaker 2: So if you're indicted, you're convicted. Yeah. There was 122

500
00:22:14,910 --> 00:22:16,030
Speaker 2: guys in my pod, two took it to trial, 120

501
00:22:16,030 --> 00:22:21,820
Speaker 2: guys pled out. Just meaning, yep.

502
00:22:21,990 --> 00:22:24,959
Speaker 1: So they just jam you up. Basically, you've been charged.

503
00:22:25,260 --> 00:22:27,080
Speaker 1: You'd be an idiot to take it to trial.

504
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,669
Speaker 2: Right. But you've always got some narcissist that goes, I'm

505
00:22:30,690 --> 00:22:33,250
Speaker 2: going to beat him. Actually, there were three people that

506
00:22:33,270 --> 00:22:36,990
Speaker 2: took it to trial. These two guys and Smiling Richard Fable.

507
00:22:37,210 --> 00:22:39,100
Speaker 2: Richard Fable was the head of the Hells Angels for-

508
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,680
Speaker 2: for the whole of America. Yeah. And he was looking

509
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,160
Speaker 2: at triple life for machine gun murders, but he got

510
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,219
Speaker 2: off it. But when you're looking at triple life, you've

511
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 2: got nothing else. Yeah, you might as well go for it.

512
00:22:49,340 --> 00:22:51,500
Speaker 2: These other two got off it. One guy got off

513
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 2: it for three years. The other guy got off it

514
00:22:53,100 --> 00:22:53,780
Speaker 2: for five years.

515
00:22:53,820 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

516
00:22:54,700 --> 00:22:57,440
Speaker 2: So the guy with three years took it to trial, lost.

517
00:22:57,460 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 2: He got 19 years. The other guy didn't take the

518
00:23:00,900 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 2: five years, took it to trial, and he got 23 years. Oh, gee.

519
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:05,370
Speaker 1: That'd be hard to live with.

520
00:23:05,510 --> 00:23:10,350
Speaker 2: So are you willing to gamble? Yeah. And- They've got

521
00:23:10,390 --> 00:23:13,109
Speaker 2: a 99.2% conviction rate.

522
00:23:13,170 --> 00:23:14,550
Speaker 1: Yeah, you've got to look at the odds.

523
00:23:14,830 --> 00:23:17,250
Speaker 2: And it's really funny as you get more comfortable in

524
00:23:17,270 --> 00:23:20,500
Speaker 2: there and guys coming in getting busted and then they're

525
00:23:20,540 --> 00:23:23,660
Speaker 2: trying to explain their way out. I was just laughing

526
00:23:23,700 --> 00:23:26,580
Speaker 2: at one point because it's like, hey, I'm not the jury, man.

527
00:23:27,220 --> 00:23:28,340
Speaker 2: We're all innocent in here.

528
00:23:30,020 --> 00:23:33,909
Speaker 1: I could imagine. that's bullshit because this didn't happen.

529
00:23:34,090 --> 00:23:34,810
Speaker 2: I didn't know.

530
00:23:34,850 --> 00:23:36,129
Speaker 1: Your eyes would start to glaze over.

531
00:23:36,250 --> 00:23:39,330
Speaker 2: I didn't know that there were 50 kilos of ecstasy

532
00:23:39,410 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 2: in the gas tank even though I had to fill

533
00:23:41,740 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 2: up every 15 minutes.

534
00:23:43,540 --> 00:23:44,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. You knew.

535
00:23:44,980 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 2: Like just take your licks, do your time and get out.

536
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,900
Speaker 1: So you got, finally you got the right advice that

537
00:23:52,190 --> 00:23:55,410
Speaker 1: if you nodded to it and pled you would be

538
00:23:55,490 --> 00:23:58,050
Speaker 1: getting in the range of what did you expect?

539
00:23:58,660 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 2: Originally, I expected one to two years. Yeah. That's what

540
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 2: the prosecutor, because I was the last of the light

541
00:24:04,580 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 2: sentences for helicopter weed pilots. He'd already sentenced one guy

542
00:24:09,020 --> 00:24:12,440
Speaker 2: a couple months earlier to just over a year, and

543
00:24:12,740 --> 00:24:15,570
Speaker 2: I switched judges to go in front of Judge Kuhnhauer

544
00:24:15,609 --> 00:24:17,649
Speaker 2: because he didn't give a shit about weed.

545
00:24:17,670 --> 00:24:20,370
Speaker 1: And they looked at you and your role in the organization.

546
00:24:20,390 --> 00:24:21,369
Speaker 1: You were the transporter.

547
00:24:21,530 --> 00:24:23,109
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just a pilot.

548
00:24:23,150 --> 00:24:23,709
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay.

549
00:24:23,869 --> 00:24:27,530
Speaker 2: And then- Susan Rowe was happy with that. And then

550
00:24:27,590 --> 00:24:29,810
Speaker 2: two days before I was about to get sentenced, they

551
00:24:29,830 --> 00:24:30,510
Speaker 2: pulled my deal.

552
00:24:30,830 --> 00:24:31,030
Speaker 1: Right.

553
00:24:31,150 --> 00:24:34,250
Speaker 2: And then they wanted 36 months to 60 months, something

554
00:24:34,270 --> 00:24:36,730
Speaker 2: like that. They wanted three to five years. Yeah. I

555
00:24:36,770 --> 00:24:40,350
Speaker 2: was pretty pissed off at that point because we had

556
00:24:40,390 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 2: a deal.

557
00:24:40,780 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 1: Yeah.

558
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,199
Speaker 2: But the US can change that deal. But look, the

559
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 2: judge upheld the deal. And he said, yep, this was

560
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,180
Speaker 2: the deal that we agreed to. So he gave me

561
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,300
Speaker 2: a little over a year. How long had you been

562
00:24:52,340 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 2: in at this stage?

563
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 1: Nine months. Right. Yeah.

564
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,260
Speaker 2: But they got some extra time out of me. Susan

565
00:24:58,330 --> 00:25:01,290
Speaker 2: Rowe wasn't happy. She was pissed off with that sentence.

566
00:25:01,470 --> 00:25:05,190
Speaker 2: She was actually going to appeal the sentence. But how

567
00:25:05,210 --> 00:25:06,990
Speaker 2: they got the extra time out of me is once

568
00:25:07,030 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 2: I finished the prison sentence, they sent me to immigration

569
00:25:09,910 --> 00:25:11,140
Speaker 2: down in Tacoma, Washington.

570
00:25:11,180 --> 00:25:11,340
Speaker 1: Yeah.

571
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,100
Speaker 2: And they just sat me there for months. They said

572
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,060
Speaker 2: they couldn't find my passport. And I didn't want to

573
00:25:17,100 --> 00:25:19,590
Speaker 2: call the Australian authorities and get everyone involved.

574
00:25:19,830 --> 00:25:19,939
Speaker 1: Yeah.

575
00:25:20,270 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 2: I just thought I'd sit and I was getting really

576
00:25:22,340 --> 00:25:22,850
Speaker 2: good at.

577
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:24,820
Speaker 1: Sitting and waiting. With that, did you reach out and

578
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:26,880
Speaker 1: tell your family, tell your friends? No.

579
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:31,460
Speaker 2: Well, the other half of this story, my brother called

580
00:25:31,500 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 2: me once when I was in Colorado and I couldn't

581
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 2: believe he got a hold of me. I got a

582
00:25:38,780 --> 00:25:41,619
Speaker 2: thing over the PA saying, come to the warden's office

583
00:25:42,070 --> 00:25:44,609
Speaker 2: and it was Dave on the phone and I was–

584
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,679
Speaker 2: He goes, holy shit, big fellow, you okay? And I said, yeah,

585
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 2: I'm all right. And he goes, look, don't let anyone

586
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 2: mess with you and I'll be there when you get out. Right.

587
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,940
Speaker 2: And I went, yep. I said, how's mum? And he said, yeah,

588
00:25:57,060 --> 00:26:01,030
Speaker 2: she's good, man. She's really good. I said, okay, just

589
00:26:01,050 --> 00:26:01,649
Speaker 2: tell her I love her.

590
00:26:02,090 --> 00:26:02,310
Speaker 1: Okay.

591
00:26:02,470 --> 00:26:04,650
Speaker 2: And that would have been about three weeks after I got,

592
00:26:04,970 --> 00:26:08,010
Speaker 2: must be about two weeks after I got arrested. So

593
00:26:08,050 --> 00:26:10,610
Speaker 2: what he didn't tell me is mum had been dead.

594
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:11,619
Speaker 1: Two weeks.

595
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 2: She was already buried.

596
00:26:13,500 --> 00:26:14,820
Speaker 1: He's protecting her. Yeah.

597
00:26:20,500 --> 00:26:30,060
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, yeah, after that, I got out.

598
00:26:32,020 --> 00:26:35,780
Speaker 1: Sorry about your mum and, yeah, it's hard.

599
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:38,619
Speaker 2: After I got out, Dad picked me up from the

600
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:43,390
Speaker 2: airport and took me back to house and said, David

601
00:26:43,430 --> 00:26:44,010
Speaker 2: killed himself.

602
00:26:44,810 --> 00:26:51,750
Speaker 1: Your brother. And so that was the last conversation. Sorry

603
00:26:51,770 --> 00:26:58,230
Speaker 1: to hear that, Tim. Just take a moment. Yeah, you

604
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,620
Speaker 1: talk about, I have a lot of people sit here,

605
00:27:00,660 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: we talk about crime, punishment and those sort of things.

606
00:27:04,100 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: But one of the things that I think people don't

607
00:27:07,100 --> 00:27:11,300
Speaker 1: fully appreciate when you're inside, and we're not arguing the

608
00:27:11,340 --> 00:27:14,699
Speaker 1: merits you deserve to be in or not, is that

609
00:27:14,940 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: you're taken away from society and these are the things

610
00:27:17,260 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: that can happen when you are inside.

611
00:27:19,859 --> 00:27:25,530
Speaker 2: Totally. Everyone does time. Everyone's doing the time. My brother

612
00:27:25,650 --> 00:27:27,430
Speaker 2: asked to come over and see me in November.

613
00:27:27,470 --> 00:27:27,610
Speaker 1: Yeah.

614
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 2: And I said no because I didn't want him spending

615
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:31,980
Speaker 2: all that money coming over.

616
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 1: Coming over.

617
00:27:32,780 --> 00:27:34,640
Speaker 2: And you couldn't, you could see me for an hour

618
00:27:34,660 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 2: a week. Yeah, yeah. And I just wanted, he sent

619
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 2: a message through my lawyer and I didn't realise he

620
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,090
Speaker 2: needed to see me more than I needed to see him.

621
00:27:41,109 --> 00:27:41,550
Speaker 1: Right, yeah.

622
00:27:41,990 --> 00:27:45,950
Speaker 2: But, yeah, you never know what your sentence is going

623
00:27:45,970 --> 00:27:48,409
Speaker 2: to be. I got a light sentence and I almost

624
00:27:48,470 --> 00:27:50,929
Speaker 2: laugh at that. You would laugh at that sentence of

625
00:27:50,990 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 2: what I made and what I got away with.

626
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

627
00:27:53,060 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 2: Yeah. But my sentence started the day I got out.

628
00:27:55,619 --> 00:27:58,900
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Well, it continues, doesn't it? Yeah. It continues.

629
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,310
Speaker 1: When you're in there, were you confronted with violence or

630
00:28:02,590 --> 00:28:04,110
Speaker 1: see violence, witness violence?

631
00:28:04,510 --> 00:28:08,590
Speaker 2: Look, everyone picks their journey. I got really good at

632
00:28:09,650 --> 00:28:13,450
Speaker 2: negotiating to you, like negotiating. Danny Hoffman was head of

633
00:28:13,490 --> 00:28:15,950
Speaker 2: the Aryan Brotherhood, Nazi lowriders.

634
00:28:16,810 --> 00:28:16,970
Speaker 1: Yeah.

635
00:28:17,010 --> 00:28:19,550
Speaker 2: He went to He wanted to kill this guy for cigarettes.

636
00:28:19,910 --> 00:28:22,710
Speaker 2: And I didn't understand. I'm not a criminal. I didn't

637
00:28:22,750 --> 00:28:26,430
Speaker 2: understand why you want, like, you'll get a life sentence.

638
00:28:27,170 --> 00:28:30,590
Speaker 2: And I said, look, if I can go get cigarettes

639
00:28:30,710 --> 00:28:34,830
Speaker 2: from the Russians, like, I didn't want Danny getting in anymore.

640
00:28:34,930 --> 00:28:38,540
Speaker 2: I couldn't figure it out because one day I was

641
00:28:38,620 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 2: walking with him around the pod, around the unit. I said,

642
00:28:42,020 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 2: what are you going to do when you get out?

643
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 2: And he said, I'm going to get a gun and

644
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,290
Speaker 2: I'm going to rob a drug dealer. And I said,

645
00:28:48,310 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 2: don't you want to get an apartment and get a job?

646
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 2: And he just killed himself laughing and started punching me

647
00:28:54,300 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 2: in the guts and said, you don't get it. This

648
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 2: is us. This is me. You're here for a visit.

649
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 2: This is what we live. And all those guys protected me.

650
00:29:05,730 --> 00:29:08,670
Speaker 2: They did want to hire me. I got a lot

651
00:29:08,710 --> 00:29:11,810
Speaker 2: of job offers to do the southern border. When they

652
00:29:11,850 --> 00:29:14,330
Speaker 2: find out you're a helicopter pilot and a smuggler, you're

653
00:29:14,350 --> 00:29:15,290
Speaker 2: at the top of the food chain.

654
00:29:16,150 --> 00:29:17,870
Speaker 1: Right. You're a bit of a character. Yeah. A bit

655
00:29:17,890 --> 00:29:19,420
Speaker 1: of a novelty in there. Yeah.

656
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,500
Speaker 2: You're not running across in the back of a pickup doing.

657
00:29:22,300 --> 00:29:24,180
Speaker 1: A death run. And I dare say for the people

658
00:29:24,220 --> 00:29:26,780
Speaker 1: that are in there indoctrinated in that lifestyle, you'd be

659
00:29:26,820 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 1: a bit of breath of fresh air. Yeah. Come in there.

660
00:29:29,740 --> 00:29:32,070
Speaker 1: So a little bit of entertainment in terms of, or

661
00:29:32,090 --> 00:29:35,130
Speaker 1: a different perspective on life and seeing what life is

662
00:29:35,470 --> 00:29:39,410
Speaker 1: out away from their gangland and hardcore criminals. I couldn't

663
00:29:39,450 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 1: understand that. and they couldn't. But that would break up

664
00:29:43,060 --> 00:29:46,540
Speaker 1: the monotony. Speaking to some, here comes Tim walking through.

665
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 2: What?

666
00:29:46,980 --> 00:29:49,060
Speaker 1: Why are you going to kill him for cigarettes? That's stupid.

667
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:50,380
Speaker 1: Let me go get a cigarette from him.

668
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 2: Yeah.

669
00:29:50,940 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: That type of attitude.

670
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 2: And I'll go down and see them. I'll walk in

671
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 2: and talk to anyone.

672
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

673
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:57,740
Speaker 2: Hey, look, you guys are going to have major shit

674
00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 2: if you don't give me a carton of cigarettes.

675
00:29:59,680 --> 00:29:59,900
Speaker 1: Yeah.

676
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 2: And I don't want to tell you who, but just

677
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,110
Speaker 2: give them to me and you'll never, ever hear from

678
00:30:04,170 --> 00:30:04,790
Speaker 2: anything again.

679
00:30:04,850 --> 00:30:09,530
Speaker 1: Yeah. Simple things like that. Yeah. Well, it's an experience that, yeah,

680
00:30:10,390 --> 00:30:12,930
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't get to have. Did it

681
00:30:12,970 --> 00:30:15,550
Speaker 1: change you as a person, the experience inside?

682
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 2: Oh, 100%. Yeah. I'm not the same person I was.

683
00:30:18,700 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

684
00:30:19,220 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 2: And, yeah, you keep changing each day. But that was

685
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 2: very significant. I've had two lives. I had one life

686
00:30:28,300 --> 00:30:30,340
Speaker 2: up until the point I got out.

687
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:30,500
Speaker 1: Yeah.

688
00:30:30,660 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 2: And then a new life started after that.

689
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,330
Speaker 1: You've been inside. So you're carrying the badge of, yeah,

690
00:30:37,510 --> 00:30:41,950
Speaker 1: an ex-con. Did that play against you? It didn't. It didn't.

691
00:30:42,590 --> 00:30:47,740
Speaker 2: I didn't– I said to Dad, part of it, you know,

692
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,420
Speaker 2: I had a couple of mates dying and I said

693
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 2: to Dad, I've got to get back to my life

694
00:30:50,900 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 2: in Canada. That's what I've got to do.

695
00:30:52,620 --> 00:30:54,220
Speaker 1: So you've come back, you've been released.

696
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:55,180
Speaker 2: I've been released.

697
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:56,860
Speaker 1: Immigration, then deported.

698
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,220
Speaker 2: Deported back to Australia and Dad told me Dave's dead,

699
00:31:00,260 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 2: Mum's dead. And then on my phone, a couple of

700
00:31:02,580 --> 00:31:05,490
Speaker 2: other mates had died in that year as well. I

701
00:31:05,510 --> 00:31:07,450
Speaker 2: just sort of stood at Yipoon and said, I've got

702
00:31:07,470 --> 00:31:09,150
Speaker 2: to get back to Canada. And that's what I did.

703
00:31:09,170 --> 00:31:11,110
Speaker 2: I turned around about a week later and jumped on

704
00:31:11,150 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 2: a plane and headed back to Canada. And they didn't

705
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:13,620
Speaker 2: stop me at the border.

706
00:31:13,910 --> 00:31:14,580
Speaker 1: That's interesting.

707
00:31:15,100 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 2: Like nothing was said.

708
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

709
00:31:16,980 --> 00:31:19,660
Speaker 2: All good to go. So I started back in construction

710
00:31:19,700 --> 00:31:20,300
Speaker 2: the next day.

711
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

712
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:22,340
Speaker 2: And I just started rebuilding my life.

713
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:24,860
Speaker 1: Did you stay away from the dark side? 100%.

714
00:31:24,860 --> 00:31:25,780
Speaker 2: The dark side?

715
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

716
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,380
Speaker 2: I never. I was owed millions of dollars, still loads

717
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,380
Speaker 2: that went over that I didn't get paid for.

718
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: Yeah.

719
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 2: I made a deal with somebody that I wouldn't go

720
00:31:34,940 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 2: after that money. Yeah. And I would just wipe it.

721
00:31:38,310 --> 00:31:39,830
Speaker 2: I never spoke to them again.

722
00:31:40,690 --> 00:31:43,350
Speaker 1: When you say made a deal, person caught up in that,

723
00:31:44,890 --> 00:31:46,530
Speaker 1: just said, I'm walking away from that.

724
00:31:46,610 --> 00:31:48,370
Speaker 2: Yeah, I said, I know what I'm owed.

725
00:31:48,450 --> 00:31:48,630
Speaker 1: Yeah.

726
00:31:49,030 --> 00:31:51,150
Speaker 2: You can let them know I'm not coming after them. Yeah.

727
00:31:51,790 --> 00:31:54,090
Speaker 2: And we'll leave it at that. All those guys that

728
00:31:54,110 --> 00:31:56,190
Speaker 2: put me inside, they were more scared of me than

729
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 2: I was of them. Because I'd changed even in that year.

730
00:31:59,620 --> 00:32:02,260
Speaker 2: I wasn't scared. That's the other thing about jail. I

731
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 2: wasn't scared to go back a second time. It would

732
00:32:04,300 --> 00:32:09,500
Speaker 2: have been so easy to grab a helicopter and do

733
00:32:09,540 --> 00:32:13,290
Speaker 2: it again. Because the scary part about jail was just

734
00:32:13,330 --> 00:32:14,780
Speaker 2: the first Six months.

735
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,220
Speaker 1: Okay. And you start to get your rhythm in there.

736
00:32:17,460 --> 00:32:20,770
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the process. It's no different than the coal miner.

737
00:32:21,010 --> 00:32:24,310
Speaker 2: It's no different than the helicopter pilot. Once you learn

738
00:32:24,330 --> 00:32:28,430
Speaker 2: the process of jail and what you can expect, it's

739
00:32:28,450 --> 00:32:31,450
Speaker 2: not scary anymore. That's why it's easy to go back

740
00:32:31,490 --> 00:32:32,170
Speaker 2: a second time.

741
00:32:33,170 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 1: So what stopped you? Is this, you've just, no, this

742
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,620
Speaker 1: is not for me. I would imagine, and yeah, we

743
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:40,980
Speaker 1: only touched on it, but the weight that carries with

744
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,380
Speaker 1: your mum passing away, your brother. Yeah. friends and all that,

745
00:32:44,430 --> 00:32:46,300
Speaker 1: but what was the thing that.

746
00:32:46,500 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 2: I was never a criminal. I wasn't raised in central

747
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,420
Speaker 2: Queensland as a criminal. My family were coal miners.

748
00:32:53,460 --> 00:32:55,620
Speaker 1: That's not what you and Tezza thought after you did

749
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:56,010
Speaker 1: your first run.

750
00:32:56,020 --> 00:32:57,620
Speaker 2: Oh, totally. We were dickheads.

751
00:32:57,880 --> 00:32:58,060
Speaker 1: Yeah.

752
00:32:58,220 --> 00:32:59,900
Speaker 2: You know, we were just a couple of dickheads that

753
00:33:00,100 --> 00:33:02,420
Speaker 2: really should have been mustering cattle up on a property

754
00:33:02,460 --> 00:33:04,140
Speaker 2: in far north Queensland.

755
00:33:04,220 --> 00:33:07,150
Speaker 1: Did you start to tool up and carry weapons and

756
00:33:07,750 --> 00:33:10,410
Speaker 1: was that part of the image when you were running

757
00:33:10,450 --> 00:33:10,810
Speaker 1: the drugs?

758
00:33:11,130 --> 00:33:12,890
Speaker 2: No, they tried to give me a gun once.

759
00:33:13,010 --> 00:33:13,130
Speaker 1: Yeah.

760
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 2: They tried to give me a gun and said, I said,

761
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,230
Speaker 2: what's the gun for? And they said, well, somebody wants

762
00:33:18,250 --> 00:33:19,989
Speaker 2: to take the stuff. And I said, I'm just going

763
00:33:20,010 --> 00:33:22,790
Speaker 2: to let you know right now. If somebody comes along

764
00:33:22,810 --> 00:33:24,410
Speaker 2: and puts a gun at me and they want to

765
00:33:24,470 --> 00:33:25,890
Speaker 2: take the stuff, I'm going to give them a hand

766
00:33:25,930 --> 00:33:28,270
Speaker 2: to load it and they can take the helicopter as well.

767
00:33:28,790 --> 00:33:31,740
Speaker 2: So understand something, I'm not a bodyguard for your shit.

768
00:33:31,860 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay. Yeah.

769
00:33:33,460 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 2: I wasn't into the lifestyle. It was very different. I

770
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 2: wasn't into the lifestyle of it, yeah.

771
00:33:37,820 --> 00:33:41,380
Speaker 1: I think that's what– It makes me sit here and

772
00:33:41,420 --> 00:33:44,890
Speaker 1: laugh and we're talking heavy stuff, but you seem the

773
00:33:44,930 --> 00:33:47,210
Speaker 1: most unlikely person to be caught up in this. It's

774
00:33:47,250 --> 00:33:50,810
Speaker 1: almost like a Walter Mitty type situation. Right, yeah. You've

775
00:33:50,970 --> 00:33:53,030
Speaker 1: ended up in this world that's, yeah.

776
00:33:53,090 --> 00:33:56,180
Speaker 2: And I don't understand it and they don't understand me. Yeah.

777
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 2: But somehow I made it through and walked out the

778
00:33:59,700 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 2: other side.

779
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:05,070
Speaker 1: And like for young blokes, life advice or young women

780
00:34:05,250 --> 00:34:08,570
Speaker 1: as well, like getting dragged into this world. It seems glamorous,

781
00:34:08,610 --> 00:34:09,910
Speaker 1: but there's a price to pay.

782
00:34:10,250 --> 00:34:12,710
Speaker 2: Oh, massive price. And you don't know what that price is.

783
00:34:12,730 --> 00:34:16,150
Speaker 2: You may get a long sentence, which sucks. You may

784
00:34:16,190 --> 00:34:18,989
Speaker 2: get a short sentence and you get what I got,

785
00:34:19,130 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 2: a life outside. And- Yeah, you only get one life.

786
00:34:25,020 --> 00:34:27,879
Speaker 1: And you navigated your way through prison, but it doesn't

787
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,820
Speaker 1: always end up as- I was lucky. You were lucky.

788
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:35,300
Speaker 2: I was lucky. I was lucky. I was a good talker.

789
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:35,660
Speaker 1: Yeah.

790
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 2: And I carried through that, but I was lucky.

791
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:40,620
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

792
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,710
Speaker 2: It had nothing to do with my connections or whatever.

793
00:34:43,730 --> 00:34:43,930
Speaker 1: Yeah.

794
00:34:44,370 --> 00:34:45,350
Speaker 2: It had to do with luck.

795
00:34:45,570 --> 00:34:45,750
Speaker 1: Yeah.

796
00:34:45,969 --> 00:34:47,910
Speaker 2: And I lucked it out for about 18 months.

797
00:34:48,250 --> 00:34:50,589
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I suppose the nature of the crime you

798
00:34:50,610 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 1: came into would be a bit of a- Yeah, the

799
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:55,919
Speaker 1: helicopter pilot, and you'd be able to tell some funny

800
00:34:55,980 --> 00:34:58,070
Speaker 1: stories how you couldn't fly the helicopter.

801
00:34:58,140 --> 00:34:59,430
Speaker 2: Oh, everyone loved those stories.

802
00:34:59,469 --> 00:35:05,350
Speaker 1: Yeah, you could entertain the groups as little guys. Totally. Okay,

803
00:35:05,390 --> 00:35:09,410
Speaker 1: you're back in Canada. You're making a life for yourself. Yeah. Relationship-wise,

804
00:35:09,489 --> 00:35:10,310
Speaker 1: you're back in the relationship.

805
00:35:10,330 --> 00:35:13,530
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've got a couple of dogs. I've got a girl.

806
00:35:13,630 --> 00:35:16,049
Speaker 2: I've got my boat. I had a big boat. I

807
00:35:16,350 --> 00:35:18,630
Speaker 2: started a construction company. I started another one with a

808
00:35:18,630 --> 00:35:20,149
Speaker 2: mate of mine. Everything was doing really well.

809
00:35:20,210 --> 00:35:20,330
Speaker 1: Yep.

810
00:35:21,260 --> 00:35:25,100
Speaker 2: Then I got a letter in the mail from the

811
00:35:25,140 --> 00:35:28,700
Speaker 2: Canadian authorities saying that it appears that you've done some

812
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,180
Speaker 2: time in the United States for international drug smuggling.

813
00:35:31,510 --> 00:35:32,370
Speaker 1: How long after this?

814
00:35:32,530 --> 00:35:33,089
Speaker 2: Eight years.

815
00:35:33,290 --> 00:35:33,770
Speaker 1: Eight years.

816
00:35:34,010 --> 00:35:36,730
Speaker 2: Came back to bite me. Jesus. They just hit me

817
00:35:36,770 --> 00:35:40,790
Speaker 2: with all these charges, serious criminality, people smuggling.

818
00:35:41,350 --> 00:35:43,299
Speaker 1: Oh, that's when you got hit with the people smuggling

819
00:35:43,380 --> 00:35:43,609
Speaker 1: as well?

820
00:35:43,700 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 2: With the people smuggling, yeah. And sure enough, I was

821
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:48,280
Speaker 2: stripped of everything.

822
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,930
Speaker 1: Right. All your rights over in Canada.

823
00:35:52,150 --> 00:35:54,190
Speaker 2: Yeah. And told to get packing. They were going to

824
00:35:54,210 --> 00:35:55,730
Speaker 2: give me 10 days to get out of the country.

825
00:35:55,890 --> 00:35:56,069
Speaker 1: Yeah.

826
00:35:56,090 --> 00:35:59,330
Speaker 2: But we negotiated with the judge and they gave me

827
00:35:59,530 --> 00:36:00,529
Speaker 2: eight weeks. Right.

828
00:36:00,930 --> 00:36:05,790
Speaker 1: Pack up 22 years. That's how long you'd been in Canada? Yeah.

829
00:36:06,030 --> 00:36:08,469
Speaker 1: So how old are you now? 41.

830
00:36:08,469 --> 00:36:09,650
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

831
00:36:09,950 --> 00:36:12,210
Speaker 1: Could you take your assets that you built up? Could

832
00:36:12,230 --> 00:36:15,390
Speaker 1: you sell them off and transfer? It's just weird.

833
00:36:15,410 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 2: I just bought a new pickup. Yeah. And everyone knows.

834
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,029
Speaker 2: You walk into Ford. I just got the new Ford

835
00:36:23,110 --> 00:36:29,089
Speaker 2: F-150 Lariat, $ 80, 000 or whatever. Yeah. So I went back

836
00:36:29,130 --> 00:36:32,190
Speaker 2: to Ford and said, I've got a life sentence. Canada's

837
00:36:32,230 --> 00:36:34,190
Speaker 2: kicking me out. You need to take your car back.

838
00:36:34,570 --> 00:36:37,690
Speaker 2: And they said, no, we're not taking it. You just

839
00:36:37,730 --> 00:36:40,009
Speaker 2: bought it. It's got 3,000 Ks on it. I said,

840
00:36:41,010 --> 00:36:43,969
Speaker 2: and it's the first time I ever felt like I

841
00:36:44,010 --> 00:36:47,819
Speaker 2: was dying because I've got a big boat. It's the

842
00:36:47,860 --> 00:36:50,509
Speaker 2: middle of winter. I can't fucking sell the thing. Yeah.

843
00:36:50,770 --> 00:36:52,219
Speaker 2: You know, it's a shit time of the year to

844
00:36:52,260 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 2: try and sell a boat.

845
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

846
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:58,100
Speaker 2: Me and my buddy had just refinanced our construction business.

847
00:36:58,200 --> 00:36:58,359
Speaker 1: Yeah.

848
00:36:58,580 --> 00:37:01,859
Speaker 2: So we just bought all these excavators, heavily leveraged. Yeah.

849
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 2: Because we were setting ourselves up for the summer. Couldn't

850
00:37:05,340 --> 00:37:05,760
Speaker 2: sell that.

851
00:37:05,969 --> 00:37:06,180
Speaker 1: Right.

852
00:37:06,570 --> 00:37:09,810
Speaker 2: I literally walked out. I drove that. I tried to

853
00:37:09,850 --> 00:37:12,169
Speaker 2: explain to Ford, I'll drop your car off. You guys

854
00:37:12,190 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 2: are just going to have to figure it out. They

855
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 2: couldn't figure out what I was saying. I said, look

856
00:37:16,700 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 2: at it like this. I've got terminal cancer. And on

857
00:37:20,140 --> 00:37:22,830
Speaker 2: the 14th of February, which is the day I was deported,

858
00:37:23,450 --> 00:37:26,370
Speaker 2: I will die. Yeah. Don't give a fuck about your car.

859
00:37:26,570 --> 00:37:28,630
Speaker 2: You're going to have to figure something out. And they said, no,

860
00:37:28,650 --> 00:37:31,989
Speaker 2: it's your car. I said, rightio, you've been warned. I

861
00:37:32,030 --> 00:37:34,580
Speaker 2: drove that thing to the airport on my deportation day

862
00:37:34,780 --> 00:37:37,230
Speaker 2: and I left the keys in it. Whatever happened to it,

863
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:38,020
Speaker 2: I do not know.

864
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 1: I wonder. Yeah.

865
00:37:40,250 --> 00:37:41,989
Speaker 2: I gave Ford a call and said it's sitting on

866
00:37:42,030 --> 00:37:45,390
Speaker 2: the third floor right out in front of arrivals at YVR.

867
00:37:45,570 --> 00:37:49,410
Speaker 2: That was 13 years ago. I put the boat over

868
00:37:49,430 --> 00:37:51,610
Speaker 2: at a mate's house. I think he used it for

869
00:37:51,630 --> 00:37:53,870
Speaker 2: a time or two, blew the engines up. He called

870
00:37:53,890 --> 00:37:57,170
Speaker 2: me about two years ago and said, hey, your covers

871
00:37:57,210 --> 00:38:00,190
Speaker 2: came off the boat. The whole thing's rotten. I said,

872
00:38:00,210 --> 00:38:03,969
Speaker 2: just bury it. So I lost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

873
00:38:03,989 --> 00:38:06,089
Speaker 1: So you start back here. Where did you move back

874
00:38:06,130 --> 00:38:07,550
Speaker 1: when you came back to Australia?

875
00:38:07,730 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 2: I went back to Dad's for about Six days and

876
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,590
Speaker 2: he said, yeah, we won't really see an eye to

877
00:38:13,650 --> 00:38:15,410
Speaker 2: eye at that point. So then I went down to

878
00:38:15,469 --> 00:38:18,950
Speaker 2: Sydney and I was staying up on Pitt Street at

879
00:38:19,030 --> 00:38:21,950
Speaker 2: the backpackers there in a single room working at a

880
00:38:22,010 --> 00:38:23,590
Speaker 2: concrete recycling plant.

881
00:38:23,610 --> 00:38:24,970
Speaker 1: Okay.

882
00:38:25,070 --> 00:38:28,259
Speaker 2: On an excavator just chipping away concrete, catching the bus

883
00:38:28,300 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 2: to work. Yeah.

884
00:38:29,500 --> 00:38:29,660
Speaker 1: Okay.

885
00:38:29,780 --> 00:38:33,140
Speaker 2: And thought, what the fuck has my life just become? Okay.

886
00:38:33,540 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I'd say it's a low point, but yeah,

887
00:38:37,300 --> 00:38:41,280
Speaker 1: I can imagine you thinking, Had all this, it's all gone, blown.

888
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,180
Speaker 1: And then a little bit of resilience to try and

889
00:38:44,260 --> 00:38:45,379
Speaker 1: turn it around and start again.

890
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,380
Speaker 2: Yeah, just catching that bus each morning and sitting in

891
00:38:48,420 --> 00:38:53,189
Speaker 2: that little flea bid room at the backpackers on Pitt

892
00:38:53,230 --> 00:38:56,609
Speaker 2: Street and just trying to figure out where to go

893
00:38:56,790 --> 00:38:59,930
Speaker 2: or what to do because it was a mental game

894
00:38:59,950 --> 00:39:04,489
Speaker 2: at that point. I had been kicked for a crime again.

895
00:39:04,510 --> 00:39:07,259
Speaker 2: So be very careful about that crime. I paid for

896
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 2: it in the US.

897
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:08,060
Speaker 1: Yeah.

898
00:39:08,570 --> 00:39:11,919
Speaker 2: My family paid for it while I was in there.

899
00:39:12,340 --> 00:39:14,540
Speaker 2: Eight years later, I come back to pay for it again.

900
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 2: I'm sent over to here, and essentially I'll pay for

901
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 2: it again. Did you have a sense of worthlessness at

902
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:25,530
Speaker 2: that point in time? Did you start, is this karma?

903
00:39:25,570 --> 00:39:28,370
Speaker 2: Is this because I did the wrong thing? Oh, 100%.

904
00:39:28,370 --> 00:39:29,570
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're hard on yourself? 100%.

905
00:39:30,050 --> 00:39:31,950
Speaker 2: Like a piece of shit. I never talked to anyone

906
00:39:31,989 --> 00:39:34,410
Speaker 2: for three months. Can you imagine me not talking to

907
00:39:34,469 --> 00:39:37,950
Speaker 2: anyone for three months? I just walked to the concrete

908
00:39:37,989 --> 00:39:38,990
Speaker 2: recycling plant.

909
00:39:39,110 --> 00:39:39,290
Speaker 1: Yeah.

910
00:39:39,650 --> 00:39:42,359
Speaker 2: I walked back on a Friday. I'd take myself out

911
00:39:42,390 --> 00:39:45,859
Speaker 2: for dinner and I wouldn't talk to anyone. I just,

912
00:39:46,010 --> 00:39:48,259
Speaker 2: I didn't know what to say. I had all of

913
00:39:48,420 --> 00:39:50,959
Speaker 2: what you've just heard. but I didn't know what to say.

914
00:39:50,980 --> 00:39:53,390
Speaker 2: When people are just looking at you, probably thinking, well,

915
00:39:53,450 --> 00:39:56,529
Speaker 2: what's his loser? What's happened to you? Yeah, you don't

916
00:39:56,550 --> 00:39:57,330
Speaker 2: want to hear my story.

917
00:39:57,350 --> 00:39:57,870
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

918
00:39:57,930 --> 00:39:58,910
Speaker 2: I don't want to tell it either.

919
00:39:59,870 --> 00:40:02,170
Speaker 1: It must have been a hard time for you.

920
00:40:02,710 --> 00:40:06,330
Speaker 2: Oh, soul searching. I didn't have my brother with me anymore. Yeah.

921
00:40:06,910 --> 00:40:10,390
Speaker 2: No family around me. And, you know, I'm in a

922
00:40:10,469 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 2: country that, look, Australia's a great country, but it wasn't.

923
00:40:13,890 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 1: You know, I hadn't been here 20 years.

924
00:40:15,820 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 2: Yeah. Didn't have a driver's license. Didn't have anything.

925
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:21,980
Speaker 1: You gradually started to build a life for yourself in

926
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:23,010
Speaker 1: the real estate.

927
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:27,810
Speaker 2: Yeah. Sydney, I didn't find I had a connection with Sydney,

928
00:40:27,830 --> 00:40:30,350
Speaker 2: so I moved to Melbourne, even though I'd mostly like

929
00:40:30,370 --> 00:40:33,890
Speaker 2: to come back to Sydney. And then I just started, yeah,

930
00:40:33,910 --> 00:40:35,989
Speaker 2: I did a bit of FIFO work to get some

931
00:40:36,050 --> 00:40:38,290
Speaker 2: money up, and then I got into real estate at

932
00:40:38,330 --> 00:40:40,210
Speaker 2: the bottom and then worked my way up there for

933
00:40:40,230 --> 00:40:41,330
Speaker 2: the next seven years.

934
00:40:41,390 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 1: So starting to build a life together. You've broken up

935
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:44,609
Speaker 1: in the relationship.

936
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 2: Broken up.

937
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: The opportunity for maths.

938
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 2: Maths came up.

939
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

940
00:40:47,989 --> 00:40:51,670
Speaker 2: And look, then I started dating somebody, so I cancelled it. But,

941
00:40:51,870 --> 00:40:54,390
Speaker 2: you know, for about three years, they called me every

942
00:40:54,450 --> 00:40:56,320
Speaker 2: year saying, hey, would you like to give it a

943
00:40:56,340 --> 00:40:59,980
Speaker 2: go this year? Yeah. And look, the year they called,

944
00:41:00,780 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 2: I needed some time off from real estate and I

945
00:41:04,500 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 2: was single, so why not?

946
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:12,380
Speaker 1: I could think for a fucking thousand reasons. Right. Why not? Like, okay,

947
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:14,970
Speaker 1: I already declared in part one I watch maths, so

948
00:41:15,050 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: I'm not– Or I could just say I researched this

949
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 1: for the podcast. I'd never watched the episode of Maths.

950
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 1: And I think everyone knows about it. You come and

951
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,890
Speaker 1: marry at first sight. They get all the people volunteering,

952
00:41:26,910 --> 00:41:29,310
Speaker 1: the grooms, the brides, walk up there and you meet

953
00:41:29,330 --> 00:41:32,590
Speaker 1: the person for the first time. And for TV world,

954
00:41:32,910 --> 00:41:36,830
Speaker 1: you're married at that point in time. I reckon you

955
00:41:36,850 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 1: could count on one or two hands of people that

956
00:41:39,940 --> 00:41:42,879
Speaker 1: walked out with their reputation intact because it looks like

957
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,850
Speaker 1: a show it's just designed to... cause controversy.

958
00:41:46,210 --> 00:41:48,230
Speaker 2: Look, I came out of it really well. Yeah.

959
00:41:48,410 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 1: You were matched with Lucinda Light, who's a character in

960
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 1: her own right.

961
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,580
Speaker 2: Everyone talks about that opening scene. And as you can

962
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,580
Speaker 2: see today and my story, I'm a black and white

963
00:41:58,620 --> 00:42:01,360
Speaker 2: kind of guy. I told them exactly who I want.

964
00:42:01,540 --> 00:42:01,700
Speaker 1: Yep.

965
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 2: I said, I don't want no hippies.

966
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:04,020
Speaker 1: Yeah.

967
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,339
Speaker 2: I don't want nobody from Byron Bay. I don't want

968
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 2: no tree huggers. I don't want any crystals. If she

969
00:42:09,700 --> 00:42:11,970
Speaker 2: asks what fucking sign I am, I'm going to run

970
00:42:11,989 --> 00:42:16,469
Speaker 2: for the hills. Then cut to her. She's hugging a tree.

971
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 1: Yeah.

972
00:42:17,110 --> 00:42:20,109
Speaker 2: Got a crystal trying to channel the energy. And every

973
00:42:20,150 --> 00:42:22,649
Speaker 2: bloke says the same thing. Oh, fucking let's watch this.

974
00:42:22,770 --> 00:42:25,290
Speaker 1: This is going to be a shit show. Because it

975
00:42:25,330 --> 00:42:29,210
Speaker 1: was Earth Mother and you and Lucinda. And that's the

976
00:42:29,250 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 1: type of person she was. I'm not attacking her. You

977
00:42:33,100 --> 00:42:34,880
Speaker 1: and her together, I thought this is hilarious.

978
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 2: But, you know, again, the story. Channel 9 didn't know

979
00:42:38,219 --> 00:42:40,930
Speaker 2: I had a criminal past. Yeah. Yeah. When I was

980
00:42:41,010 --> 00:42:43,259
Speaker 2: filling out that contract, it said, have you ever been

981
00:42:43,300 --> 00:42:43,740
Speaker 2: in jail?

982
00:42:43,780 --> 00:42:43,940
Speaker 1: Nope.

983
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 2: Have you ever had any dealings with lawyers?

984
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: Nope.

985
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 2: Police?

986
00:42:46,820 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: Nope.

987
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm like, you're paying me $ 150 a day. You

988
00:42:49,700 --> 00:42:53,020
Speaker 2: get $ 150 worth of information, which is my name, where

989
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:55,370
Speaker 2: I live, and my birthday. All the other shit, you've

990
00:42:55,390 --> 00:42:59,290
Speaker 2: got to find out. So it's a game of discovery

991
00:42:59,350 --> 00:43:00,009
Speaker 2: for us all.

992
00:43:00,610 --> 00:43:02,450
Speaker 1: You've got cameras on you 24-7 or almost 24-7. They

993
00:43:02,510 --> 00:43:10,589
Speaker 1: edit it. So- You can be a good guy for

994
00:43:10,590 --> 00:43:13,550
Speaker 1: 24 hours and then be a dickhead for 30 seconds.

995
00:43:13,650 --> 00:43:15,700
Speaker 1: And it'll be when you're being a dickhead for the

996
00:43:15,700 --> 00:43:18,900
Speaker 1: 30 seconds, it'll be highlighted. Did you feel the pressure

997
00:43:18,940 --> 00:43:20,540
Speaker 1: of that or did you see it as a game

998
00:43:20,620 --> 00:43:21,700
Speaker 1: or play it as a game?

999
00:43:23,100 --> 00:43:26,359
Speaker 2: I'm not an idiot. And exactly what I said in prison,

1000
00:43:26,610 --> 00:43:30,549
Speaker 2: you got two ears and one mouth and use them

1001
00:43:30,590 --> 00:43:34,190
Speaker 2: in every part of life. So I knew that Married

1002
00:43:34,210 --> 00:43:35,450
Speaker 2: at First Sight is a game.

1003
00:43:35,660 --> 00:43:35,839
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1004
00:43:36,010 --> 00:43:38,800
Speaker 2: It's got nothing to do with relationships. It's big brother,

1005
00:43:39,020 --> 00:43:40,760
Speaker 2: played in couples in a hotel.

1006
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1007
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,859
Speaker 2: When you break the game down, that's what it is. Yeah.

1008
00:43:44,860 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 2: So from the moment I walked on set, from the

1009
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:51,589
Speaker 2: moment I walked on set for the Bucks party, I thought, righty,

1010
00:43:51,630 --> 00:43:54,810
Speaker 2: I looked around and just like in prison, you size

1011
00:43:54,850 --> 00:43:57,830
Speaker 2: everyone up. And I thought, okay, Australia's going to hate

1012
00:43:57,870 --> 00:44:00,270
Speaker 2: a couple of these blokes. Yeah. So I'm going to

1013
00:44:00,310 --> 00:44:04,180
Speaker 2: hate them first. So anyone with a hair bun and

1014
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:07,660
Speaker 2: fucking trousers that don't go down the ankles, you're on

1015
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 2: my shit list because every Aussie bloke is going to

1016
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,460
Speaker 2: hate you, so I'm going to hate you. So I'm

1017
00:44:13,500 --> 00:44:15,779
Speaker 2: not going to be the sacrificial lamb. Yeah. You know,

1018
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:17,760
Speaker 2: I'm not going to be the weak one here. Everyone

1019
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:21,100
Speaker 2: makes their first bad decisions in the first 48 hours

1020
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:21,760
Speaker 2: on that show.

1021
00:44:21,940 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1022
00:44:23,030 --> 00:44:24,259
Speaker 2: It's a 48-hour game.

1023
00:44:24,860 --> 00:44:27,750
Speaker 1: It's interesting. Like from a social experiment, the skills that

1024
00:44:27,790 --> 00:44:32,069
Speaker 1: you learnt in prison- Well, the way you describe that,

1025
00:44:32,150 --> 00:44:35,469
Speaker 1: because that's exactly how you read the room in a

1026
00:44:35,510 --> 00:44:41,380
Speaker 1: prison yard and it's high stakes reading the yard. On

1027
00:44:41,430 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 1: that show, you can see some people and some people

1028
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,940
Speaker 1: I think you're probably all right, but you have just made,

1029
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:49,700
Speaker 1: you have destroyed your reputation.

1030
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:50,740
Speaker 2: Fundamental errors.

1031
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,140
Speaker 1: For the people are going to look at you, you're

1032
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:58,009
Speaker 1: going to be unemployable, you're unlikable just because they're not

1033
00:44:58,120 --> 00:44:59,250
Speaker 1: understanding the situation.

1034
00:44:59,950 --> 00:45:00,970
Speaker 2: Read the room.

1035
00:45:01,110 --> 00:45:01,350
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1036
00:45:01,510 --> 00:45:02,450
Speaker 2: It's a game.

1037
00:45:02,730 --> 00:45:02,890
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1038
00:45:02,989 --> 00:45:06,170
Speaker 2: And you've got to– I can– I'm not that great

1039
00:45:06,190 --> 00:45:08,870
Speaker 2: with the English language, but I said to these other blokes,

1040
00:45:08,910 --> 00:45:10,810
Speaker 2: you make one mistake with it and I'll pick up

1041
00:45:10,910 --> 00:45:11,100
Speaker 2: on it.

1042
00:45:11,190 --> 00:45:11,710
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

1043
00:45:11,890 --> 00:45:14,370
Speaker 2: And I did. And they weren't bad guys.

1044
00:45:14,650 --> 00:45:14,830
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1045
00:45:15,270 --> 00:45:18,710
Speaker 2: You just– unfortunately, I had to play against somebody.

1046
00:45:18,930 --> 00:45:19,089
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1047
00:45:19,810 --> 00:45:20,630
Speaker 2: And you guys were it.

1048
00:45:21,590 --> 00:45:25,589
Speaker 1: Well, hours of entertaining. Are you the blame for some

1049
00:45:25,610 --> 00:45:28,760
Speaker 1: of the controversies if you bought all that drinking on the–

1050
00:45:29,030 --> 00:45:29,570
Speaker 1: Into the room.

1051
00:45:29,650 --> 00:45:32,030
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. I got busted a few times there.

1052
00:45:32,170 --> 00:45:33,430
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

1053
00:45:33,510 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 2: It's all trimmed back. And when Endemol Shine found out

1054
00:45:36,420 --> 00:45:40,260
Speaker 2: and Channel 9 had done Current Affair and Endemol Shine

1055
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 2: didn't know, they were making steady calls to me and

1056
00:45:42,700 --> 00:45:44,900
Speaker 2: the show still had about four days to run before

1057
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 2: the end. And I just had about 50 missed calls

1058
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,130
Speaker 2: from Endemol Shine. And then finally I'd already done the

1059
00:45:51,210 --> 00:45:54,029
Speaker 2: interview with Seb Costello. Yeah. And then I picked up

1060
00:45:54,050 --> 00:45:56,989
Speaker 2: and they go, look, is it true? And I said, yeah,

1061
00:45:57,030 --> 00:45:59,419
Speaker 2: it's true. have you done the interview? I said, yeah,

1062
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:03,219
Speaker 2: I've done it. And they go, holy shit. I just

1063
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:06,140
Speaker 2: remember the head of Animal Shine going, well, clearly you've

1064
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:08,819
Speaker 2: picked some holes in our vetting system. And I said,

1065
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 2: don't feel bad about it. I got past the US

1066
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,390
Speaker 2: Border Patrol 40 times, so I'm pretty sure I can

1067
00:46:13,410 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 2: get on your reality show.

1068
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:17,550
Speaker 1: That's a good way of putting their mind to these.

1069
00:46:18,170 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 1: Did you think it would blow up?

1070
00:46:19,989 --> 00:46:21,410
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. I knew it was going to be like

1071
00:46:21,430 --> 00:46:21,790
Speaker 2: a bomb.

1072
00:46:22,140 --> 00:46:25,450
Speaker 1: Yeah, because if it was when the show was screening. Yeah.

1073
00:46:25,530 --> 00:46:28,190
Speaker 1: And the other thing I want to ask you about

1074
00:46:28,230 --> 00:46:30,469
Speaker 1: the show because, you know, they talk everyone's five minutes

1075
00:46:30,530 --> 00:46:33,250
Speaker 1: of fame and that show really delivers it for the

1076
00:46:33,290 --> 00:46:33,770
Speaker 1: people on there.

1077
00:46:33,830 --> 00:46:35,050
Speaker 2: It's crazy.

1078
00:46:35,130 --> 00:46:38,340
Speaker 1: Like I would imagine walking down the street you'd be stopped,

1079
00:46:38,380 --> 00:46:42,299
Speaker 1: photographed and all sorts of things. Was that part of

1080
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:43,610
Speaker 1: the thing that came out?

1081
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,020
Speaker 2: I didn't realise how big that show was.

1082
00:46:46,140 --> 00:46:46,339
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1083
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 2: I was a little bit naive in that sense from

1084
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:49,919
Speaker 2: the first time it airs.

1085
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:50,180
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1086
00:46:50,660 --> 00:46:53,989
Speaker 2: You walk out the next day and everybody knows who

1087
00:46:54,010 --> 00:46:55,790
Speaker 2: you are. Yeah, yeah. It's nuts.

1088
00:46:56,050 --> 00:46:57,089
Speaker 1: How did you handle that?

1089
00:46:57,850 --> 00:46:58,310
Speaker 2: I loved it.

1090
00:46:58,590 --> 00:47:03,629
Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, you've been very honest. Yeah.

1091
00:47:04,430 --> 00:47:06,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. Got a couple of free counter meals, got a

1092
00:47:06,820 --> 00:47:09,580
Speaker 2: few free beers. Yeah. You got invited to do a

1093
00:47:09,620 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 2: lot of cool stuff. Yeah. You know, I had property

1094
00:47:12,260 --> 00:47:14,630
Speaker 2: owners saying, come up and fly helicopters. We're going to

1095
00:47:14,650 --> 00:47:15,529
Speaker 2: do some mustering.

1096
00:47:15,610 --> 00:47:16,590
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1097
00:47:16,690 --> 00:47:19,050
Speaker 2: You know, you get asked to do some really cool

1098
00:47:19,110 --> 00:47:21,270
Speaker 2: things as long as you're not a dick on the show.

1099
00:47:21,650 --> 00:47:22,870
Speaker 1: Well, that's true, isn't it?

1100
00:47:22,989 --> 00:47:23,370
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1101
00:47:23,450 --> 00:47:26,270
Speaker 1: That's true. Well, I'm glad. So the experience, do you

1102
00:47:26,350 --> 00:47:29,730
Speaker 1: have any regrets from it? None. You're happy that you

1103
00:47:29,750 --> 00:47:31,790
Speaker 1: went down that path? Yeah, totally. Totally. Well, you do

1104
00:47:31,830 --> 00:47:34,050
Speaker 1: take some risks. What's your next little project?

1105
00:47:34,310 --> 00:47:36,529
Speaker 2: Look, I ran for parliament last year.

1106
00:47:36,670 --> 00:47:36,969
Speaker 1: Did you?

1107
00:47:37,170 --> 00:47:38,569
Speaker 2: Yeah, I ran for the federal parliament.

1108
00:47:38,590 --> 00:47:38,780
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1109
00:47:38,860 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 2: That was interesting.

1110
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:41,790
Speaker 1: Where was that at?

1111
00:47:41,980 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 2: Well, that was for the seat of Melbourne.

1112
00:47:44,980 --> 00:47:45,580
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

1113
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 2: My little 2% got Adam Bandt kicked out, which is good. Really?

1114
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:50,379
Speaker 2: My preference voting, yeah.

1115
00:47:50,980 --> 00:47:52,779
Speaker 1: Look, I wanted to get- What inspired that?

1116
00:47:53,550 --> 00:47:55,430
Speaker 2: I want to get back into the criminal game and

1117
00:47:55,630 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 2: what better place to play than at the elite level

1118
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 2: of the federal government. You know, if you're going to

1119
00:48:02,180 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 2: start robbing banks, you might as well pony up there.

1120
00:48:05,940 --> 00:48:09,299
Speaker 1: Get everyone flying helicopters to parliament, save on those travel rules.

1121
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:14,839
Speaker 2: Exactly. Look, it was– but everything– I tend to– Did

1122
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,350
Speaker 2: you go in that for the experience or you– I

1123
00:48:18,530 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 2: generally wanted to change Melbourne or I hated what it

1124
00:48:24,300 --> 00:48:29,380
Speaker 2: had become. Yeah, everything is about those split-second decisions because

1125
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 2: I remember standing with my campaign manager out the front

1126
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 2: and he said, look, we need to get some media

1127
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:37,800
Speaker 2: and we need some money.

1128
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1129
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,110
Speaker 2: And he said, can you give some of your friends

1130
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:44,310
Speaker 2: a call in the media thing? Right then, it's almost

1131
00:48:44,370 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 2: like a bolt of lightning. Right then- I heard some

1132
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 2: screams coming from around on Chapel Street, and these two

1133
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:54,950
Speaker 2: guys come screaming, buying machetes. And I just, in R.M. Williams'

1134
00:48:54,989 --> 00:48:57,390
Speaker 2: boots and suit, chased after one and caught the guy

1135
00:48:57,410 --> 00:48:58,250
Speaker 2: with the machete.

1136
00:48:58,330 --> 00:49:00,819
Speaker 1: I was looking the other day, just stuff like that. Yeah.

1137
00:49:00,860 --> 00:49:01,660
Speaker 1: Tell us that story.

1138
00:49:02,100 --> 00:49:05,020
Speaker 2: I chased this young bloke down. Look, I was going

1139
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,620
Speaker 2: to give up. I was getting pretty pooped. I remember

1140
00:49:07,660 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 2: the cop came along and grabbed him.

1141
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:09,490
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1142
00:49:09,980 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 2: And, you know, I'd already had the balaclava off him

1143
00:49:12,380 --> 00:49:14,279
Speaker 2: by then and the cop looked at me and looked

1144
00:49:14,300 --> 00:49:15,819
Speaker 2: at him and said to the young bloke, you should

1145
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 2: be ashamed of yourself letting this bloke catch you. But, yeah,

1146
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 2: that was pretty funny. Really weird. I got a phone

1147
00:49:26,140 --> 00:49:29,500
Speaker 2: call that night saying this guy had watched what I'd

1148
00:49:29,580 --> 00:49:33,020
Speaker 2: done and was really impressed. Yeah. And, yeah, over the

1149
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:34,420
Speaker 2: next 24 hours he donated $ 150, 000 to my campaign.

1150
00:49:34,460 --> 00:49:41,710
Speaker 1: Wow. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, that's a different thing.

1151
00:49:41,770 --> 00:49:43,830
Speaker 2: You know what? I don't know who he was. Yeah, yeah.

1152
00:49:43,910 --> 00:49:45,620
Speaker 2: I haven't got a clue. I got a call from

1153
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 2: his handler and said he doesn't want to know who

1154
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:51,620
Speaker 2: it is. Yeah. There's going to be $ 16, 400 lots dropped

1155
00:49:51,660 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 2: into your account over the next 24 hours. He just

1156
00:49:54,700 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 2: wants to say thanks.

1157
00:49:55,660 --> 00:49:59,590
Speaker 1: Is that something you'd ever do again, like run for parliament?

1158
00:49:59,610 --> 00:50:00,469
Speaker 2: No, I wouldn't do it again.

1159
00:50:00,610 --> 00:50:01,230
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1160
00:50:01,610 --> 00:50:05,569
Speaker 2: Yeah. I'd rather do drug dealing, to be honest. It's

1161
00:50:05,630 --> 00:50:07,150
Speaker 2: just such a dirty game.

1162
00:50:07,390 --> 00:50:07,690
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1163
00:50:09,340 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 2: You want to be honest?

1164
00:50:10,980 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1165
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:13,390
Speaker 2: I got into real estate because I wanted to be

1166
00:50:13,430 --> 00:50:15,290
Speaker 2: an honest real estate agent. You can't be.

1167
00:50:15,469 --> 00:50:16,969
Speaker 1: Yeah. You get corrupted by it.

1168
00:50:17,950 --> 00:50:20,009
Speaker 2: If you try and tell the truth, you'll crash every

1169
00:50:20,030 --> 00:50:21,110
Speaker 2: deal you try and put together.

1170
00:50:21,130 --> 00:50:24,490
Speaker 1: I wouldn't buy this house because the property values are dropping.

1171
00:50:24,530 --> 00:50:26,360
Speaker 1: You're not going to get a sale, are you? Right.

1172
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:29,500
Speaker 1: But I see politicians. I see some people that go

1173
00:50:29,580 --> 00:50:33,779
Speaker 1: in for, I believe, the right reasons. Yeah. And you

1174
00:50:33,820 --> 00:50:36,569
Speaker 1: see them slowly get corrupted or not be the person

1175
00:50:36,610 --> 00:50:39,540
Speaker 1: that they Yeah, you hope they'd be. And I think

1176
00:50:39,580 --> 00:50:42,839
Speaker 1: it's the system. You're doing a lot of public speaking now?

1177
00:50:42,890 --> 00:50:44,509
Speaker 2: I'm doing a lot of speaking now, yeah, yeah.

1178
00:50:44,830 --> 00:50:47,270
Speaker 1: And telling your life stories, lessons learned?

1179
00:50:47,510 --> 00:50:51,070
Speaker 2: Yeah, lessons learned, life story. I mean, you know, I

1180
00:50:51,590 --> 00:50:55,280
Speaker 2: struggle even today with depression. I've had some pretty bad

1181
00:50:55,360 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 2: belts with it. And you never know what struggle somebody's

1182
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:04,700
Speaker 2: got having underneath the hood. And although I look like

1183
00:51:04,739 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 2: a shiny truck up there.

1184
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:06,339
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1185
00:51:06,739 --> 00:51:09,700
Speaker 2: You know, I fight the same battles as everybody else. Yeah.

1186
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 2: I just put a boot on each day. And when

1187
00:51:12,620 --> 00:51:14,900
Speaker 2: you need help, you've got to get help.

1188
00:51:15,020 --> 00:51:17,799
Speaker 1: That's good advice. I think we're waking up to that. Like,

1189
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:20,800
Speaker 1: blokes being blokes, we tend not to, you know, you

1190
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:22,859
Speaker 1: said you went through that three months where you didn't

1191
00:51:23,180 --> 00:51:23,890
Speaker 1: talk to anyone.

1192
00:51:24,030 --> 00:51:24,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1193
00:51:24,630 --> 00:51:29,240
Speaker 1: And that's the way a lot of blokes reacted. when

1194
00:51:30,060 --> 00:51:32,299
Speaker 1: things are down, you just be a bit stoic, just

1195
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:34,140
Speaker 1: shut up and get on with things.

1196
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:36,950
Speaker 2: Look, I stood on the edge of darkness in 2019,

1197
00:51:36,950 --> 00:51:40,790
Speaker 2: couldn't want to end it. And ironically enough, I had

1198
00:51:40,810 --> 00:51:44,529
Speaker 2: a reading from my brother. Like, Tezza bought me a

1199
00:51:44,570 --> 00:51:49,009
Speaker 2: reading when I got out of jail. And I don't

1200
00:51:49,050 --> 00:51:50,230
Speaker 2: believe in any of that stuff.

1201
00:51:50,430 --> 00:51:50,609
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1202
00:51:50,650 --> 00:51:54,670
Speaker 2: Like, clearly, listen to it. But, you know, he said

1203
00:51:54,690 --> 00:51:58,530
Speaker 2: some things and, yeah, Dave said he'd made a mistake

1204
00:51:58,690 --> 00:52:00,149
Speaker 2: and he said, if you ever get to that point,

1205
00:52:00,190 --> 00:52:03,910
Speaker 2: wait 10 seconds. That's what this reader didn't know. And

1206
00:52:03,969 --> 00:52:06,509
Speaker 2: so that actually ran through my head and said, just

1207
00:52:06,550 --> 00:52:07,609
Speaker 2: wait 10 seconds.

1208
00:52:07,730 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 1: The few people that have made genuine attempts to kill

1209
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 1: themselves that I've heard of or some contact with, every

1210
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 1: one of them is the moment you stepped off the

1211
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:21,890
Speaker 1: building or the moment you regret it.

1212
00:52:23,380 --> 00:52:25,590
Speaker 2: That's what Dave said from the grave? And if you

1213
00:52:25,630 --> 00:52:28,470
Speaker 2: ever listen to that speaker that jumped off the Golden

1214
00:52:28,489 --> 00:52:31,790
Speaker 2: Gate Bridge, he just talks about him crying on the

1215
00:52:31,830 --> 00:52:35,489
Speaker 2: bus and just people walking by him. And then he

1216
00:52:35,550 --> 00:52:37,509
Speaker 2: said when he put his hand on the edge and

1217
00:52:37,550 --> 00:52:40,730
Speaker 2: he walked off and he said, if the bloke coming

1218
00:52:40,770 --> 00:52:43,580
Speaker 2: before me said what's wrong, he wouldn't have done it.

1219
00:52:43,810 --> 00:52:45,549
Speaker 2: And the bloke just walked by him and he jumped off.

1220
00:52:46,050 --> 00:52:49,129
Speaker 2: But the minute his hand left the steel, he went,

1221
00:52:49,210 --> 00:52:50,509
Speaker 2: fuck it, I want to do this.

1222
00:52:50,730 --> 00:52:53,910
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, that's good advice. So from a reader, so

1223
00:52:54,010 --> 00:53:00,460
Speaker 1: Lucinda did get– Get something across here.

1224
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:01,700
Speaker 2: Oh, mate, we're going to have to do a couple

1225
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 2: of mass parties next.

1226
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:06,800
Speaker 1: Year, right? You could have lived up at Byron Bay. Yeah,

1227
00:53:06,820 --> 00:53:09,950
Speaker 1: there you go. There you go. Fly the helicopters in.

1228
00:53:09,980 --> 00:53:13,390
Speaker 1: There's plenty of cannabis up there. You can ship it

1229
00:53:13,630 --> 00:53:14,790
Speaker 1: around all over the place.

1230
00:53:14,810 --> 00:53:15,110
Speaker 2: Totally.

1231
00:53:15,650 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 1: Tim, look, I've enjoyed the chat, and thank you for

1232
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:24,700
Speaker 1: being so open with it. I really have. You've given

1233
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:28,419
Speaker 1: me an insight into a crazy world, and you still

1234
00:53:28,460 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 1: can laugh, but, yeah, I don't know what you're going

1235
00:53:30,980 --> 00:53:32,730
Speaker 1: to do in the future, but I hope it's good

1236
00:53:32,770 --> 00:53:33,009
Speaker 1: for you.

1237
00:53:33,430 --> 00:53:35,490
Speaker 2: To be honest, I haven't got a frigging clue.

1238
00:53:35,650 --> 00:53:36,230
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

1239
00:53:36,410 --> 00:53:37,650
Speaker 2: But that's part of it.

1240
00:53:37,850 --> 00:53:39,910
Speaker 1: Well, keep doing what you're doing because you just seem

1241
00:53:39,930 --> 00:53:43,830
Speaker 1: to just, you know, Walter Mitty, here we come. Just

1242
00:53:43,850 --> 00:53:48,950
Speaker 1: be careful flying those helicopters. Kassa, give me a license. Well,

1243
00:53:49,090 --> 00:53:50,430
Speaker 1: I didn't want to ask that because I don't want

1244
00:53:50,450 --> 00:53:54,500
Speaker 1: to jinx you, but are you trying to get the license? Yeah.

1245
00:53:54,780 --> 00:53:55,080
Speaker 2: Okay.

1246
00:53:55,100 --> 00:53:57,700
Speaker 1: Well, hopefully that'll work out. Anyone that's mad enough to

1247
00:53:58,140 --> 00:54:00,340
Speaker 1: fly like you've done, I'd be happy to get in

1248
00:54:00,380 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 1: the cockpit with you.

1249
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:01,870
Speaker 2: There you go.

1250
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:03,660
Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay. Good stuff. Thanks, Tim.

1251
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:04,399
Speaker 2: Cheers, mate.

1252
00:54:04,420 --> 00:54:07,029
Speaker 1: Appreciate it. Cheers. Cheers.