1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:08,520 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean Almer. 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:10,719 Sean Aylmer: We talk a lot on this podcast about the rise 3 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:14,000 Sean Aylmer: of private credit. It's expanded enormously in the last few years, 4 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:16,480 Sean Aylmer: and there's been no shortage of commentary around the sector 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,640 Sean Aylmer: about the benefits, about the opportunities, also about the risks. Today, 6 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:22,599 Sean Aylmer: I wanted to unpack all of that, including some of 7 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,279 Sean Aylmer: the factors that could affect the booming sector and why 8 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:29,200 Sean Aylmer: we're seeing more stories examining transparency in the industry. Remember 9 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:31,560 Sean Aylmer: this is general information only, and you should always seek 10 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,519 Sean Aylmer: professional advice before making investment decisions. Paul Miron is the 11 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:38,520 Sean Aylmer: managing director of Msquared Capital, great supporter of this podcast. Paul, 12 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:39,840 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to Fear and Greed. 13 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:40,760 Paul Miron: Thank you so much. 14 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:43,959 Sean Aylmer: So just the basics first, what is private credit? Why 15 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:45,479 Sean Aylmer: has it boomed in the last couple of years. 16 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:48,440 Paul Miron: Well, private credit you have to look at it from 17 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,720 Paul Miron: both sides of the balance sheet. You have borrowers, for example, 18 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,600 Paul Miron: who want to get finance, and then you have investors. 19 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,960 Paul Miron: There's a misconception that private credit actually do the deals 20 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,600 Paul Miron: that the banks they want to do. There's some truth 21 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:03,640 Paul Miron: to it as well. There is a two hundred and 22 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,679 Paul Miron: five billion dollars could be more, which is called a 23 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,119 Paul Miron: funding gap, and that funding gap is basically what private 24 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:10,679 Paul Miron: credit is. 25 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,920 Sean Aylmer: This two hundred billion dollars or thereabouts is what people 26 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,399 Sean Aylmer: want to borrow, but the banks won't lend effectively, and 27 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:19,880 Sean Aylmer: private credit sits in there. 28 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,560 Paul Miron: And there's reason why the funding gap is growing. There's 29 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,240 Paul Miron: higher regulation and there are very good quality business, for example, 30 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,640 Paul Miron: that banks don't necessarily want to participate in. So for example, 31 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:33,560 Paul Miron: a normal term facility with a bank has a payback 32 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,680 Paul Miron: ratio of around two to three years, So any type 33 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,520 Paul Miron: of client that wants to borrow money for less than 34 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:42,679 Paul Miron: twelve months, it's not necessarily the type of business they 35 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,520 Paul Miron: want to do. So as a private credit provider, we 36 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,200 Paul Miron: find niches in the marketplace, so we think that from 37 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,840 Paul Miron: a risk and wart perspective, is very very good value. 38 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,960 Paul Miron: And as there's more maturity happening in the market, it's 39 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,160 Paul Miron: a very symbiotic relationship between private credit and the banks 40 00:01:59,160 --> 00:01:59,680 Paul Miron: as well. 41 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:01,320 Sean Aylmer: Where it sort of sits in the middle and brings 42 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,000 Sean Aylmer: the two parties together. What sorts of assets are you 43 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,400 Sean Aylmer: talking about, or even to take a step back, what 44 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:09,000 Sean Aylmer: sectors are you interested in? 45 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,240 Paul Miron: Okay, So the type of sectors that we're interested in 46 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,360 Paul Miron: is that first of all, we're a secured private credit provider. 47 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:18,839 Sean Aylmer: They take it apart, secured right private credit provider. 48 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,200 Paul Miron: Which is backed by property. So if a borrower comes 49 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,440 Paul Miron: to us for business purposes and they have a residential, 50 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:30,160 Paul Miron: commercial industrial property, we can do business. And that's just 51 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:34,640 Paul Miron: basically the first first requirement. And obviously every single deal 52 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,880 Paul Miron: is so unique. You know, every single deal is risk 53 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,120 Paul Miron: and reward perspectives looked at it. So how much is 54 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:43,760 Paul Miron: it gearing, what's the security, what's the So there's a 55 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,239 Paul Miron: different pricing mechanism for each particular deal. And I think 56 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,640 Paul Miron: there's a big misconception in the marketplace that it's a 57 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,239 Paul Miron: homogeneous marketplace which is private credit. But it couldn't be 58 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,079 Paul Miron: further from the truth, because like I've been in the 59 00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,959 Paul Miron: industry for nearly thirty years, which I shouldn't be showing 60 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:02,280 Paul Miron: age that well, that way, to be in the. 61 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,080 Sean Aylmer: Industry for thirty years, Paul, you look very young, but 62 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:04,320 Sean Aylmer: go on. 63 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:08,160 Paul Miron: Thank you. But nearly being in that in the industry 64 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,200 Paul Miron: for such a long time, the passion that I have 65 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,200 Paul Miron: for private credit is that every single transaction is so 66 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:17,480 Paul Miron: different and it possesses a different risk profile and for 67 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:21,040 Paul Miron: that there's a different there's a different return and a 68 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,359 Paul Miron: different way that we manage that particular debt as well. 69 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:25,400 Sean Aylmer: Okay, so I'm just going to try and repeat what 70 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:27,080 Sean Aylmer: you said to me kind of in a one oh 71 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:31,000 Sean Aylmer: one sense. So everything is secured by property, yep. The asset 72 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:33,600 Sean Aylmer: could be all sorts of things, which makes it such 73 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,800 Sean Aylmer: a diverse and every asset is treated individually yep. And 74 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,200 Sean Aylmer: you're looking at the risk profile, how much money they want. 75 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:42,920 Sean Aylmer: Presumably that's from the both sides. So we're talking about 76 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:47,000 Sean Aylmer: people wanting money, but the provider of the funding, they've 77 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,040 Sean Aylmer: got to have a risk appetite to actually go with 78 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:49,600 Sean Aylmer: that as well. 79 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:51,800 Paul Miron: And I think this is where the maturity of the 80 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:55,520 Paul Miron: industry is coming to fruition. Eight years ago when we 81 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,360 Paul Miron: started the business, when we said that we're a private 82 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:00,560 Paul Miron: credit provider, most people didn't even know what that was. 83 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,320 Paul Miron: In the last two years is absolutely exploded, and especially 84 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,000 Paul Miron: from an investor perspective as well. And you know, there's 85 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,600 Paul Miron: a lot of research from in America. What's the perfect portfolio? 86 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,360 Paul Miron: It was the sixty forty split. Now it has private 87 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:18,120 Paul Miron: credit in there where less than eight years ago, we 88 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,440 Paul Miron: were still determined as an alternative asset class. 89 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:27,000 Sean Aylmer: We talk about private credit being uncorrelated to other assets. 90 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,920 Sean Aylmer: Just explain what that means and the benefits of that 91 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:32,160 Sean Aylmer: for an investor who's looking for diversification. 92 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:36,839 Paul Miron: Okay, so uncorrelated. This whole principle of uncorrelated actually came 93 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,800 Paul Miron: from Harry Markowitz and he coined up the whole philosophy 94 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,400 Paul Miron: in relation to a sixty forty split. And this was 95 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:45,760 Paul Miron: in the sixties and in the seventies a sort of 96 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:50,599 Paul Miron: developed as well. So the ideal portfolio for you to 97 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,400 Paul Miron: have was sixty percent shares forty percent bonds. So what 98 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,720 Paul Miron: happens there is that if shares go up, for example, 99 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:01,760 Paul Miron: bonds is that stable acid class. If it falls down, 100 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,320 Paul Miron: then your portfolio is still having sort of an absolute 101 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:08,120 Paul Miron: return over time and getting a superior return. So the 102 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,960 Paul Miron: two asset classes are non correlated. And so from the 103 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,719 Paul Miron: seventies and eighties you only had two asset classes that 104 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,800 Paul Miron: you had to really worry about. Today there's more than 105 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,960 Paul Miron: three thousand products out there, and so there's actually a 106 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:26,719 Paul Miron: research paper done by Benz that took sixty years worth 107 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:31,000 Paul Miron: of data between bonds and shares and mapped it, and 108 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,920 Paul Miron: what they found out that the correlation between bonds and 109 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,920 Paul Miron: shares is positively correlated. So therefore isn't the theory. It's 110 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,960 Paul Miron: not the theory at all, because the whole point is 111 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,560 Paul Miron: that if you have a black swan event, at least 112 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:46,800 Paul Miron: you've got a good part of your portfolio is stable, 113 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,839 Paul Miron: so your volatility of your entire portfolio is sort of 114 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:54,720 Paul Miron: trending downwards from that black swan event. Now, for example, 115 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,760 Paul Miron: it's correlated, and it's quite positively correlated. So this is 116 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,800 Paul Miron: why we have gone on from you know, the perfect 117 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,640 Paul Miron: portfolio of sixty forty now saying well you need to 118 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,960 Paul Miron: have a little bit of private credit in there, and 119 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,360 Paul Miron: the research saying between ten and twenty five percent. But 120 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,600 Paul Miron: it also depends on the person actually investing in a 121 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,039 Paul Miron: time horizon as well, and that's why you need to 122 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,359 Paul Miron: have a professional to look at it. But it's a 123 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,279 Paul Miron: lot more complicated, and that's why there's so much interest 124 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:25,960 Paul Miron: from institutional investors in private credit because it is deemed 125 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:31,040 Paul Miron: to be a replacement and it's if it's done correctly, 126 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:35,760 Paul Miron: you know, it performs very well in volatile times because 127 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,800 Paul Miron: the investment is a investment against a dead instrument. You know, 128 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,320 Paul Miron: I've given you a million dollars, you have to give 129 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:44,760 Paul Miron: it back, and this is the interest that you have 130 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,559 Paul Miron: to give me every single month. And if something goes wrong, 131 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,520 Paul Miron: I can take possession of an asset, asset that's worth 132 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:53,799 Paul Miron: more than your debt. So that's the whole principle. 133 00:06:54,320 --> 00:07:00,160 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Paul, we'll be back in a minute. 134 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,800 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Paul Mirron, managing director of 135 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,679 Sean Aylmer: M squared Capital. Okay, we were talking about a benefit 136 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:14,320 Sean Aylmer: of private credit being diversification. Presuming we agree with that. 137 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,560 Sean Aylmer: What should we be worried about with private credit though? 138 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:19,960 Sean Aylmer: Because every asset class has. 139 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,920 Paul Miron: Its risks absolutely, and look, as I said to you before, 140 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:27,080 Paul Miron: there's different loans and every single loan carries different amount 141 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,960 Paul Miron: of risk. I think what the biggest issue that we 142 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,040 Paul Miron: have in the industry as an industry so far, and 143 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:36,000 Paul Miron: because it's grown so quickly, is what questions you need 144 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,680 Paul Miron: to ask to understand the difference between different fund managers 145 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:41,600 Paul Miron: in relation to what type of loans you have in 146 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:45,040 Paul Miron: your in your in your in your book. So for example, so. 147 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:46,400 Sean Aylmer: I'm going to I'm going to stop there. So if 148 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,400 Sean Aylmer: I'm investing in it's whineing and put a million dollars 149 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,600 Sean Aylmer: into M squared, Right, I'm putting it into a fund 150 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:56,400 Sean Aylmer: which has a bunch of principles, parameters and that fund 151 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,000 Sean Aylmer: so you've got to trust the manager of that fund 152 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,160 Sean Aylmer: to go and match that money, which is in a 153 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:03,200 Sean Aylmer: trust or something is it. 154 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:08,560 Paul Miron: So we have three options for our investors. So we 155 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,560 Paul Miron: give an ability for our investors to choose the individual 156 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:16,280 Paul Miron: loan they want to invest in. So from a transparency perspective, 157 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,200 Paul Miron: they can get a copy of the valuation, no the 158 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:21,560 Paul Miron: exact property, they can drive past it, they can see it, 159 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:25,200 Paul Miron: that can understand it, and we give them our philosophy 160 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:27,520 Paul Miron: in relation to why that is a good loan, the term, 161 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,480 Paul Miron: the return, every single loan is different, so you can 162 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:34,080 Paul Miron: actually see it, feel it. Then we have a pulled 163 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:38,040 Paul Miron: fund for retail and wholesale investors as well. Recently we've 164 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,960 Paul Miron: got SQM upgraded rating at four stars, which we're quite 165 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,480 Paul Miron: pleased with given the current environment as well, and that 166 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,280 Paul Miron: has over forty different loans and it's geared the average 167 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,480 Paul Miron: gearing across the whole portfolio. At the moment it's about 168 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:56,280 Paul Miron: fifty six percent. So the property market in general has 169 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:58,040 Paul Miron: to fall more than forty five percent for it to 170 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,360 Paul Miron: be at risk. The other interesting part we did it 171 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:05,120 Paul Miron: with that particular portfolio is because of our investment philosophy 172 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,240 Paul Miron: is that not all mortgages are the same and that 173 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:12,360 Paul Miron: we have a very strict criteria around it. So we've said, 174 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:16,680 Paul Miron: instead of chasing the highest return for investors, we're chasing 175 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:21,120 Paul Miron: the lowest risk. Let me explain that different loans carry 176 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,120 Paul Miron: different risk. So a construction loan has a different type 177 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:27,000 Paul Miron: of risk profile. Then for example, if you lend money 178 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,600 Paul Miron: against an apartment here in Piedmont, if you're lending money 179 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:34,120 Paul Miron: against rural property, if you're leaning money against specialized security. 180 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:38,880 Paul Miron: So what we've done, we've excluded specialized security, any second mortgages. 181 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,079 Paul Miron: That's the first mortgage fund only, no rural property, no 182 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,880 Paul Miron: specialized security, no land. Because in that particular fund we 183 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,599 Paul Miron: have monthly liquidity and so therefore the asset class is 184 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,599 Paul Miron: quite liquid. So a residential apartment or our house is 185 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,640 Paul Miron: quite liquid in that perspective as well. So all those 186 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:58,839 Paul Miron: type of benefits we've wrapped around in that particular product there, 187 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,160 Paul Miron: and then we have another pulled fund. They can do 188 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,439 Paul Miron: a bit of land, a bit of construction, a little 189 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,280 Paul Miron: bit higher gearing and no one's double digits at the moment. 190 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:10,120 Sean Aylmer: Okay, we're running out of time. I want to quickly 191 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,200 Sean Aylmer: talk about regulation. When I in my youth worked at 192 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,160 Sean Aylmer: the Reserve Bank and the part that is now OPRA 193 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,000 Sean Aylmer: was within the Reserve Bank and we worked on that, 194 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,120 Sean Aylmer: and residential mortgage backed securities were being created by I 195 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:24,400 Sean Aylmer: think it was Macquarie and BT in that day. Now 196 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,040 Sean Aylmer: they are just part of the cabal structure now and 197 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:28,839 Sean Aylmer: we don't think twice about it. But at the time 198 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,480 Sean Aylmer: we were trying to get our heads around exactly what 199 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,440 Sean Aylmer: a residential mortgage of back security was, how safe it was, 200 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,480 Sean Aylmer: et cetera, et cetera. Private credit kind of reminds me 201 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:40,679 Sean Aylmer: of that. I know you've been in it for thirty years, 202 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:44,400 Sean Aylmer: but for many people this is new and as a result, 203 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,760 Sean Aylmer: I don't think regulators necessarily have totally got their head 204 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:49,600 Sean Aylmer: around it. Is that a risk for the sector? 205 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,040 Paul Miron: Well, see, the fact of the matter is the way 206 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,480 Paul Miron: that regulators look at it. A bit of over fourteen 207 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:57,800 Paul Miron: fifteen years ago we had a GFC which was a 208 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:01,600 Paul Miron: total collapse of the financial system. Now the private credit 209 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:05,160 Paul Miron: is growing as such, speech it's growing over twenty percent 210 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:10,480 Paul Miron: per year. So if that industry were to fail or 211 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,959 Paul Miron: larger funds were to fall over, what's the impact And 212 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,240 Paul Miron: obviously we don't want to see that impact. And there's 213 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,480 Paul Miron: a couple of different layers there as well. You want 214 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:21,800 Paul Miron: to have investors being able to understand the risk that 215 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,960 Paul Miron: they're investing in as well. And there is other issues 216 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:28,640 Paul Miron: there because there isn't a standardization of information that is 217 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,320 Paul Miron: provided to investors. So it's like having this conversation right now. 218 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,319 Paul Miron: We all know the term private credit, but not many 219 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:37,760 Paul Miron: people ask what type of security or what type of 220 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,480 Paul Miron: loans you can do? So you know, often the industry 221 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:45,480 Paul Miron: says that a loan secured against the business without possible 222 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,160 Paul Miron: any real estate is still secured private credit fund and 223 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,079 Paul Miron: I don't think a lot of people in the market 224 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:51,760 Paul Miron: understand that. 225 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,880 Sean Aylmer: So does it need more regulation And I don't mean 226 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,720 Sean Aylmer: that in a negative sense, more standardization perhaps of what 227 00:11:58,760 --> 00:11:59,320 Sean Aylmer: you're selling. 228 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:03,000 Paul Miron: Yeah, there should be a standardization of information that we 229 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,400 Paul Miron: can provide to investors. So if they want to see 230 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:07,280 Paul Miron: if they want to have looked through rights in relation 231 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:09,920 Paul Miron: to the portfolio, how often should we be doing that? 232 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,680 Paul Miron: What is a format and just the terminology that is 233 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,040 Paul Miron: used in the industry should be standardized and should be 234 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:19,400 Paul Miron: explained as well, because I think there's still a little 235 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,360 Paul Miron: bit of confusion relation to the language, which makes it 236 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,440 Paul Miron: very difficult to compare one fund to another fund. 237 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:28,480 Sean Aylmer: We probably will get there, though, won't we, Because I mean, 238 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:30,440 Sean Aylmer: this is in a sector that's not going away. 239 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:34,680 Paul Miron: And it's growing, and it's just basically going through It's 240 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,800 Paul Miron: like it's growing pains. Yeah, that's probably the best way 241 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:38,839 Paul Miron: to explain major. 242 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:40,439 Sean Aylmer: Or something like that. Well, thank you for talking to 243 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:41,040 Sean Aylmer: Fear and Greed. 244 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:41,959 Paul Miron: Thank you. 245 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,320 Sean Aylmer: That was Paul Miron, managing director of Msquared Capital and 246 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:47,559 Sean Aylmer: great supporter of this podcast. This is the Fear and 247 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,679 Sean Aylmer: Greed Business Interview. Remember this is general information only and 248 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,520 Sean Aylmer: you should always see professional advice before making investment decisions. 249 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:55,960 Sean Aylmer: Join us every morning for the full episode of Fear 250 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,440 Sean Aylmer: and Greed. Daily Business news for people to make their 251 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:00,680 Sean Aylmer: own decisions. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.