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Speaker 1: Good eight Team. Welcome back to part two of my

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Speaker 1: chat with Nick. Got some really good feedback about part one.

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Speaker 1: If you haven't listened, you might want to listen to

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Speaker 1: that first. Probably doesn't matter too much because we talk

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Speaker 1: about different stuff. But nonetheless, here we are Mick Hall

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Speaker 1: and myself winding up our discussion from yesterday.

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Speaker 2: Enjoy because remember this one crazy boy. Addiction comes in people.

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Speaker 2: That doesn't come in bottles. Yeah, Addiction comes in people.

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Speaker 2: And you can put the bottle down, you can put

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Speaker 2: everything down with the addiction is still in the person.

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Speaker 2: And if it's not treated, we're going to look for

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Speaker 2: the escape button again. And what's the escape button? Anything

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Speaker 2: that can make me escape life, anything that can trigger

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Speaker 2: that dopamine hit the right amount of dopamine that allows

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Speaker 2: me to medicate everything again. And that's why people move,

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Speaker 2: They change their drug of choice. They can say, yea,

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Speaker 2: I was addicted to alcohol, but I'm good now, but

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Speaker 2: I'm on the bonds every night, right right? Or none? No,

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Speaker 2: I've stopped drinking, but you know now I'm down the

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Speaker 2: pokies and I don't drink, but I'll put your money

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Speaker 2: in the pokies. Yeah, or it just shifts and changes.

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Speaker 2: So we call it swapping the witch for the bitch,

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Speaker 2: all right, and we're just the bitch and shape shifts

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Speaker 2: because the person's only looking at treating the symptom. They're

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Speaker 2: only looking at treating the substance it's taking. That's not

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Speaker 2: that's not treating the problem.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm. So so if the using and the drinking

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Speaker 1: and the pawn and the gambling and all of that,

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Speaker 1: that that behavior is the symptom, Yeah, what is what

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Speaker 1: is the problem?

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Speaker 2: The problem is in the thinking, and it's in this

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Speaker 2: or there's a defect in the brain and the mid

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Speaker 2: brain and in the hierarchy system. It's in that part

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Speaker 2: of the brain, the primal part of the brain which

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Speaker 2: gets us to breathe, gets us to you know, feel hunger,

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Speaker 2: that type of stuff that doesn't think about right or

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Speaker 2: wrong or anything like that. It's just there and it's

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Speaker 2: a part of our hierarchy system, in that part of

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Speaker 2: the brain that is somewhat defective. Where how can I

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Speaker 2: explain this? Where the need to escape the way that

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Speaker 2: we think and the way that we feel becomes more

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Speaker 2: important than the basics of life. It becomes more important

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Speaker 2: than paying rent, becomes more important than my wife begging

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Speaker 2: me please stop drinking or I'm going to leave you.

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Speaker 2: It becomes more important than I'm going to lose my

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Speaker 2: job and I'm going to go financially bankrupt. It becomes

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Speaker 2: more important than these things. What we're really chasing is dopamine.

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Speaker 2: Addiction is part of the pleasure construction of our brain.

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Speaker 2: It's not only dopamine, but dope means the main neurochemical

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Speaker 2: that I kind of provides that your forage state state. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so do you reckon that?

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Speaker 1: I reckon that? Correct me if I'm wrong. But like

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Speaker 1: for me, I think there are emotional drivers as well

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Speaker 1: to addiction. I'm lonely, I feel isolated, I feel disconnected.

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Speaker 1: I fucking because I remember you telling me when you

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Speaker 1: were a kid, you felt lonely and isolated and rejected

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Speaker 1: and dejected, and then you picked up whatever the fuck

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Speaker 1: it was booze at twelve, which was sherry or something horrible, wasn't.

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Speaker 2: It, Yeah, with port?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, port, And you drank that and it tasted disgusting.

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Speaker 1: But the feeling of being inebriated, the feeling that came

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Speaker 1: with the disgusting drink, that kind of alleviated some of

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Speaker 1: that emotional pain or social pain. Am I right?

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Speaker 2: It did? Yeah? Yeah, But I see that as not

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Speaker 2: necessarily the effect of the alcohol, although I liked the

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Speaker 2: effect of the alcohol, but it was the effect of

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Speaker 2: the dopamine. My brain being flooded with dopamine. That's what

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Speaker 2: gave me the relief. That's what made me think, holy shit,

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Speaker 2: because see, I didn't even realize it. So addiction can

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Speaker 2: be described as obsession of the mind and a physical allergy.

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Speaker 2: So once I put the alcohol in, I just can't stop.

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Speaker 2: I just wanted to keep going. And before I've put

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Speaker 2: it in, I've always got this I call it the

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Speaker 2: iaty biddy shitty committee. I've got the voices in their

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Speaker 2: head going all the time, and that's where I've got

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Speaker 2: self doubt. I'm unsure. I don't want to be here.

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Speaker 2: I want to find my way out of here. I

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Speaker 2: want to all this thinking in that all this thing

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Speaker 2: I don't fit in, and all this sort of stuff.

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Speaker 2: And then when the dopamine is released in my brain,

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Speaker 2: all of that just goes quiet, it stops, and it's

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Speaker 2: that's the ultimate peace of mind. And people that get

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Speaker 2: into recovery from addiction, that's ultimately what we're seeking this

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Speaker 2: peace of mind, and we've been running away. We've all

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Speaker 2: been running away for so long. We've been running away

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Speaker 2: from ourselves. And why we're running away from ourselves because

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Speaker 2: for some reason, inside of every addict, there's this sneaking

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Speaker 2: suspicion that's been there, probably well before we ever drink

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Speaker 2: will use. There's a sneaking suspicion that we're not good enough,

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Speaker 2: we don't measure up, and maybe we're maybe we're pathetic.

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Speaker 1: And maybe unlovable. Unlovable. Yeah, yeah, So I've got a

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Speaker 1: random question. I don't think I've ever asked you. Do

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Speaker 1: you think that? And remember everyone, this is just a chat.

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Speaker 1: This is not therapy, This is not a prescription. This

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Speaker 1: is just a very sweary chat. Do you think that

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Speaker 1: codependency is a type of addiction?

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Speaker 2: Well, I can tell you emphatically that every adduct on

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Speaker 2: the face of the planet is codependent.

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Speaker 1: Go on, So I'm talking about codependent with another human, right, Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, codependence is codependency, whether it's with another human

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Speaker 2: or whatever. But yeah, we're all codependent. We're dependent on connection.

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Speaker 2: Were dependent on a particular type of connection, one that

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Speaker 2: gives us the type of relief that we need. And

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Speaker 2: so what you can often find happen when people first

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Speaker 2: try to give up drink, drugs, whatever it is that

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Speaker 2: they're doing, is that all of a sudden, they're in

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Speaker 2: a relationship or they're with somebody, and the codependency rears

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Speaker 2: its head and the person becomes absolutely reliant on that

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Speaker 2: relationship for them to be okay, because they're not used

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Speaker 2: to being able to. And recovery is about learning how

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Speaker 2: to find the sense of our self and be able

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Speaker 2: to process life ourselves without seeking external ways of doing that. So,

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Speaker 2: whether that be enmeshment with someone else, whether that be

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Speaker 2: in meshment with another substance, and that can it can

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Speaker 2: happen in all types of different ways, and we all

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Speaker 2: look for distractions, you know, at different times, whether it

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Speaker 2: be through sport, gym, you know, it can be through

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Speaker 2: sort of healthy avenues, but genuinely gents or not genuine

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Speaker 2: generally through relationships. What happens is is that it becomes

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Speaker 2: it becomes very messy when we when we fall in

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Speaker 2: love with someone, it creates a beautiful dopamine response and

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Speaker 2: it's one that can be quite similar to using and

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Speaker 2: drinking and to other addictions. And you know, I was

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Speaker 2: actually just talking to a young gentleman, you believe, last night.

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Speaker 2: So actually one of my son's friends, and he's gone

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Speaker 2: through a bit of a problem where he'd split up

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Speaker 2: with a girl and it's absolutely almost destroyed him, and

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Speaker 2: he's obsessed and he needs an escape. And I was

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Speaker 2: able to say to him last night, Look, it's good

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Speaker 2: that you're talking about this because you know, relationships are

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Speaker 2: a huge factor in people becoming suicidal, becoming horrendously depressed,

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Speaker 2: and it's because we have that enmeshment. It's because that

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Speaker 2: we put all our value and our belief on what

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Speaker 2: that person feels about us and thinks about us. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and it's just, you know, it's an awful way to

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Speaker 2: be because it means we're at the whim. You know,

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Speaker 2: we're controlled, we're emotionally controlled by others. And recovery from

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Speaker 2: addiction actually addresses codependentity because what we want is true

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Speaker 2: independence of the spirit of us, and we need to

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Speaker 2: find a way to be emotionally and psychologically okay. No

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Speaker 2: matter who does says things, acts in any in any

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Speaker 2: shape in our off we need to find a way

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Speaker 2: to be okay, and we need to find a true

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Speaker 2: sense of ourselves so that we don't have to be

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Speaker 2: reliant on someone else providing that sense of ourselves.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really interesting that this is an interesting chat, right,

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Speaker 1: the sixty one year old that lives by himself and

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Speaker 1: he's like a fucking island in a sea of humanity

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Speaker 1: going fuck off. I'm okay, No, I'm fine, what do

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Speaker 1: you mean?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 1: I you know, it's like it is interesting because really,

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Speaker 1: really really fucking loving someone is awesome and terrifying.

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Speaker 2: It's risky, right because.

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Speaker 1: You open that door right up now again everyone, this

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Speaker 1: is me just thinking out loud and I understand it.

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Speaker 1: And so to a point, like you want to be

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Speaker 1: self sustaining I don't mean as in dysfunctionally alone. And

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Speaker 1: you know you've got a big sign on your head

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Speaker 1: that says fuck off. Right, you want to be self

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Speaker 1: sustaining so that you're not co dependent, but at the

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Speaker 1: same time you want to be available and vulnerable but

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Speaker 1: finding that balance, you know, where you know you can

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Speaker 1: love and be loved. But you are I'm not talking

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Speaker 1: about people who are unwell here, I'm talking about you know,

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Speaker 1: in general terms. But but yeah, you're not your your

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Speaker 1: your sense of worth and you know, self esteem and

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Speaker 1: value is not dependent on somebody else's acceptance or love

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Speaker 1: or you know, because then we just create. You know,

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Speaker 1: this is not a this is not win win, this

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Speaker 1: is not a healthy relationship. And you think about how

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Speaker 1: many people you know and I know, and you've maybe

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Speaker 1: done it, and I know I've done it, you know

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Speaker 1: in the old days, you know, back when you know,

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Speaker 1: when I was a kid thirteen hundred years ago, I

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Speaker 1: mean I was in relationships at times that were not healthy.

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Speaker 1: I mean they weren't fucking toxic and destructive, but they weren't.

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Speaker 1: And you're just there because you're there, you know, I'm like, ah, well,

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Speaker 1: and it's more about familiarity and ease than it is like,

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Speaker 1: oh fuck, I'm so in love. I'm so in love.

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Speaker 1: They're in love. And you kind of think sometimes you

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Speaker 1: attach more pain to getting out of it than staying

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Speaker 1: in it, so you go, ah, fuck it, it'll probably

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Speaker 1: sort itself out, you know, which is I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: always that's always a great plan. I know this is shit,

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Speaker 1: but it'll get I don't know how, but magically, you know,

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Speaker 1: And and that so many people that I talk to

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Speaker 1: these days that are in a relationship that you know,

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Speaker 1: and I'm quantifying this and I shouldn't, but you know,

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Speaker 1: their relationship is a two or a three out of ten,

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Speaker 1: and they're not happy and the other person's not happy

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Speaker 1: and it's not healthy, and nobody's life is better for it, right.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, then they come up with

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Speaker 1: all of these reasons in inverted commas, why ah, fuck

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Speaker 1: it, it's just not worth it. You know, there's this, and

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Speaker 1: there's that, and there's the money, and there's the kids,

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Speaker 1: and we've got two dogs and we've got a mortgage

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Speaker 1: in this fact, you know, and then you go. And

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Speaker 1: by the way, I'm not saying they should get out

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Speaker 1: of it, but I'm just thinking, I don't know that

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Speaker 1: they're great reasons to stay in something that neither of

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Speaker 1: you love for the next twenty years.

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Speaker 2: You know, I agree, I agree, Jesus A bloody interesting subject,

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Speaker 2: you know, like I feel like for me, for me,

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Speaker 2: it's been a again to try and have a Hell,

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Speaker 2: the relationship is impossible if you're not healthy, you know,

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Speaker 2: if and and by healthy I mean functional, functional, and

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Speaker 2: that I understand, so oh to speak for me that

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Speaker 2: I understand myself. Yeah, And understand the truth about myself. Now,

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Speaker 2: I don't just mean the truth like some obvious things.

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Speaker 2: I mean the actual truth. Have you ever heard of

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Speaker 2: washroom honesty before?

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Speaker 1: Crago, I have not enlightened me, bro.

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Speaker 2: Washroom honesty is the type of honesty is you know,

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Speaker 2: when you go to the public toilet, You go and

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Speaker 2: use the public toilet, and you come out of the

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Speaker 2: stall and there's no one in there, and there's one

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Speaker 2: dirty little sink with it with a disgusting tap, and

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Speaker 2: there's no paper tow to dry your hands. Yeah, but

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Speaker 2: you still wash your hands anyway, right, all right, that's

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Speaker 2: washroom honesty. So washroom honesty with self, with ourselves and

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Speaker 2: right is the type of honesty that's needed in order

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Speaker 2: to have self discovery. It's impossible to have self discovery

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Speaker 2: without that, because otherwise it's just bullshit and self delusion.

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Speaker 2: So I feel fortunate that I'm a person in recovery

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Speaker 2: that has a process, a proper process that I can

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Speaker 2: utilize that helps me have continuous washroom honesty with self

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Speaker 2: me no matter what's going on in my life, I'm

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Speaker 2: able to use this process and find out, well, what's

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Speaker 2: the truth about me in regards to this situation and

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Speaker 2: sometimes I've got to go through a bit of pain first,

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Speaker 2: but I'm able to get to the truth of that.

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Speaker 2: And of course it's been a learning process and it's

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Speaker 2: taken time, and it's taken I'd still do it. That's

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Speaker 2: twenty four years in recovery, and I'm now in a

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Speaker 2: place where I feel that I've got a pretty decent

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Speaker 2: hand and or on it in terms of it doesn't

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Speaker 2: mean I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I can I

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Speaker 2: can see fairly quickly when I'm going off off the road. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I'm able to navigate my way back onto it.

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Speaker 2: And so what that's done is it's allowed me to

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Speaker 2: get into a relationship with someone where I have and

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Speaker 2: I may I say this quite emphatically, no dependence on

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Speaker 2: that person for my well being. You still love them,

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Speaker 2: I love them very much, and I would and I

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Speaker 2: would go to war for them, right and all that stuff.

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Speaker 2: But I have no dependence. And because I have a

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Speaker 2: sense of myself and I have who I am is

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Speaker 2: not built around that person. It's built around who I

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Speaker 2: am and what I do and how I treat people

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Speaker 2: and what I want to achieve in my life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know we're getting into really, I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is fucking fascinating, right, But as you're talking you probably

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Speaker 1: don't realize, but you will in a moment. So the

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Speaker 1: stuff you're talking about intersex with my research and my PhD,

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Speaker 1: because what you're talking about, well before that just momentarily

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Speaker 1: about self awareness, right, you caught it something else, but

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Speaker 1: it's the same. It's self awareness. That is, who am I?

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Speaker 1: What am I like? What am I like for me?

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Speaker 1: What am I doing that works? What do I do?

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Speaker 1: That's fucking stupid? You know? How am I for the world?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 1: I think this. Remember my research is around that thing

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Speaker 1: called metapception, which is understanding what I'm like for others.

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Speaker 1: In other words, what's it like for Mick right now

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Speaker 1: at two fifty four on a sad diavo like for

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Speaker 1: mixitting at home on his computer looking at me? What's

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Speaker 1: that like for him? Right? That's a metapception kind of curiosity.

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Speaker 1: And then me to have some insight into that and realize, look,

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Speaker 1: I think he's enjoying the chat is we're back, and

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Speaker 1: I don't think he's hating it or hating me. And

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Speaker 1: having some kind of insight, right, that gives me a

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Speaker 1: level of what we call meta accuracy. I just think

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Speaker 1: or I'm just wondering out loud, like I think this

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Speaker 1: is and it probably happens on a level, but this

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Speaker 1: is a really valuable kind of construct to bring into

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Speaker 1: that space, you know, the recovery space, which is, I

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Speaker 1: know how you think, right, but this is how the

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Speaker 1: rest of the world thinks. And now you don't need

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Speaker 1: to be anyone but you, but one understanding how you

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Speaker 1: think and why you think the way that you do,

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Speaker 1: good or bad. We call that meta cognition, thinking about

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Speaker 1: our thinking, understanding how someone else thinks, not agreeing with

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Speaker 1: them or being like them, but just understanding. Remember, seek

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Speaker 1: first to understand, that's called theory of mind, and then

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Speaker 1: understanding what what the fuck you were like for the

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Speaker 1: rest of the world. Because you might think you're shit hot,

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Speaker 1: but the rest of the world thinks you're a cunt, right,

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Speaker 1: And if they do and you don't know that, you're

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Speaker 1: a bit. Yeah, I don't worry. And fifteen of my

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Speaker 1: listeners have just unsubscribed, but that's okay. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is how Remember I said to you before we started,

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Speaker 1: let's not do a podcast, Let's just talk like you

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Speaker 1: and me, and this is how you and me talk.

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Speaker 1: And so for the people that just got offended, I'm

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Speaker 1: a little bit sorry. I'm not that sorry. But this

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Speaker 1: is this is as real as it gets, right, This

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Speaker 1: is what I'm saying. This is the opposite of radio.

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Speaker 1: This is not fucking scripted. This is not manufactured, This

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Speaker 1: is not choreographed. There was no plan other than just

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Speaker 1: to be real. But I think that really, you know,

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Speaker 1: like that's met a perception right there where. I know

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Speaker 1: that some people won't like that language. I'm cool with that.

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Speaker 1: I know that more that there'll be the largest percentage

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Speaker 1: you'll be like a shoulder shrug, and probably slightly more

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Speaker 1: will than won't. Go Yeah, that's funny, harps, just be

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Speaker 1: you just talked, you know. But I can't And we

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Speaker 1: go back to where I was in a minute. I

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Speaker 1: can't run a podcast or I can't be authentic if

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm putting a persona out there, if I'm like

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Speaker 1: I'm pretending I talk differently to how I actually do

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Speaker 1: right and well. And I guess in some environment you

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Speaker 1: need to be somewhat self regulatory, but on my podcast,

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Speaker 1: I'm just going to be me.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, back to you, like, is there ever any

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Speaker 1: insight into that, you know, when you're talking to someone

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Speaker 1: who's really in the you know, who's an addict, and

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Speaker 1: do you ever say to them, what do you think

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Speaker 1: it's like being around you? Because you're fucking wrong?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean I've got to do it quite often

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Speaker 2: with people. And we call it how do we how

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Speaker 2: do we call it? We call it we give people. Well,

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Speaker 2: sometimes I will give people what I would call a

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Speaker 2: peer evaluation. Oh wow, and we'll get the person if

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Speaker 2: they're in rehab. We'll get the other people in the

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Speaker 2: rehab to fill out a form and to give honest

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Speaker 2: feedback to what they can see when this person and

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Speaker 2: their and their their view of their interactions around this person,

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Speaker 2: whether it be you know, they're always you know, like

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Speaker 2: giving lip service, or they're you know, like avoiding talking

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Speaker 2: about hard stuff, or if they're not honest or not

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Speaker 2: being honest, or you know, they're they're being deceptive or

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Speaker 2: just yeah, it's just and it's a really valuable kind

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Speaker 2: of tool because we need to come out of fantasy land.

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 1: Is that also is that fraught with danger because I'm imagining,

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Speaker 1: imagining some narcissist slash sociopaths slash slash psychopaths that you

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Speaker 1: have a few of. Just statistically in a group, there's

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Speaker 1: going to be someone I imagine that wouldn't go down great.

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Speaker 2: No, it goes down fine. It generally generally goes down

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Speaker 2: pretty good if it's done in the right way. So

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Speaker 2: the reason, the way that we frame this is that

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Speaker 2: this is to help a person's recovery, and this is

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Speaker 2: to just point out some barriers to a person's recovery.

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Speaker 2: But you know, it's like anything, there's no point just

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Speaker 2: pointing out the negative. We also need to do the positive.

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Speaker 2: So then we bring in the positive and said, let's

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Speaker 2: bring out some positives in the person's character. What do

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Speaker 2: we see? And so we find really good stuff like

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Speaker 2: you know, really active listening and really engaging in group.

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Speaker 2: All right, So there could be a whole range of

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Speaker 2: different things in the positive side of the ledger, and

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Speaker 2: it generally generally works pretty well. And I often tell

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Speaker 2: people because people get all funny, Oh, I don't want

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Speaker 2: to tell negative things about this person. I don't want

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Speaker 2: to run them down. And I always tell people you're

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Speaker 2: not running them down. It's kind of like boxing, right,

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Speaker 2: If I'm in the ring, sparring, boxing, preparing for a fight,

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Speaker 2: and the only the people around me only tell me

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Speaker 2: what I'm doing good. That doesn't fucking help me. I

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Speaker 2: actually need you to tell me what I'm doing shit,

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Speaker 2: because that's what I need to work on. I don't

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Speaker 2: need to work on the shit i'm doing good. I

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Speaker 2: need to work on the shit i'm doing bad. Yeah. So,

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Speaker 2: so pointing out the needatives, I will call them barriers

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Speaker 2: to somebody, to them progressing in what they're trying to

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Speaker 2: achieve is a really empowering, informative and positive process.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to change directions slightly. I want you to

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Speaker 1: in one minute if you can, because this is leading

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Speaker 1: to something else, describe. It doesn't have to be one minute,

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Speaker 1: it can be ten minutes. What do I care? What

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Speaker 1: do you care? A moment that comes to mind that

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Speaker 1: was about as close to rock bottom as you have

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Speaker 1: ever been in the middle of addiction, and you may

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Speaker 1: have shared it once before, so you might want to

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Speaker 1: praisee it, but I think most people wouldn't have heard it.

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Speaker 1: And then I'm asking this for a reason which will

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Speaker 1: become apparent after you answer it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I can remember, probably right towards the end

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Speaker 2: of my addiction. I've not long been out of prison

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Speaker 2: up in Queensland, and I've made my way back to Melbourne.

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Speaker 2: By the way, while I was in prison serving out

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Speaker 2: my sentence, I swore that I would never ever use

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Speaker 2: or drink again, because I knew that's what put me there.

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Speaker 2: And I had a bottle of beer going down my

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Speaker 2: neck about around roughly thirty minutes after being released, And

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Speaker 2: within two weeks I had a needle of heroin going

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Speaker 2: back in my arm again so that it didn't work

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Speaker 2: too well. But look, I've made my way back to Melbourne,

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Speaker 2: and I was using an abandoned building in the city

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Speaker 2: in Melbourne, but just in between using I decided to

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Speaker 2: go and get a drink. I went into the Young

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Speaker 2: and Jackson's Hotel. I went in there and I went

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Speaker 2: up to the bar and I said to the barkeep,

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Speaker 2: olive the pot. And I still remember him pushing the

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Speaker 2: pot across the wooden bar and I could hear it

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Speaker 2: scraping along the wood. I grabbed the pot and I

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Speaker 2: stuffed off the top of the phone and thought, oh,

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Speaker 2: that tastes like shit. I put it back on the bar.

401
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Speaker 2: I walked to the toilets, I had a hit of heroin.

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Speaker 2: I vomited all over the toilet. I walked back to

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Speaker 2: the bar and pushed the pot back across the bar

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Speaker 2: to the barkeep and thought, I can't drink this, and

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Speaker 2: I walked off. And I walked around to this abandoned

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Speaker 2: building and I had to get up to the first

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Speaker 2: floor and this abandoned building, but I couldn't get in.

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Speaker 2: There was a fire hose hanging outside a window, so

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Speaker 2: I climbed up the fire hose into the first floor

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Speaker 2: of this building. And if you can imagine, the inside

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Speaker 2: of this building was just just all a wooden frame

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Speaker 2: and all of that in there, and broken plaster and

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Speaker 2: just rubbish everywhere. There was rap shit all over the floors.

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Speaker 2: There was this broken furniture. And I decided to have

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Speaker 2: a hit a heroin in there, and I did, and

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Speaker 2: it must have well, I nearly oded. Obviously I didn't

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Speaker 2: because I'm still alive, but it certainly knocked me out.

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Speaker 2: And I woke up, I don't know how long later,

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Speaker 2: with my face stuck to the carpet, this rancid rat,

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Speaker 2: shit ridden carpet, and I pulled myself to my feet

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Speaker 2: and I turned around, and as I turned around, this

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Speaker 2: old broken dressing table, and I had a mirror on it,

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Speaker 2: and there was a broken mirror on it, And as

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Speaker 2: I turned around, I caught a glimpse of myself in

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Speaker 2: the mirror. And in that very moment, what I saw

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Speaker 2: looking back at me chilled me to the bone. And

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Speaker 2: I was thirty years old, and for the first time

428
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,439
Speaker 2: in my life, I saw myself as I really was.

429
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,919
Speaker 2: And let me describe see what I really was. I

430
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 2: was a thirty year old man that was standing at

431
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 2: It was filthy dirty. I had no front teeth, they'd

432
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 2: all been punched out at the pub. At the side

433
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 2: of my face smashed in. I had screws holding my

434
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 2: leg together from a failed suicide attempt jumping off a

435
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 2: bridge over a freeway. I was sixty something kilos, ringing, wet,

436
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 2: with little chicken wings for shoulders because I've been boned

437
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 2: out from the smack us. I had hepatitis. See, I

438
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 2: had nowhere to go, no one to turn to, nowhere

439
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 2: to live, no car, no nothing. And what I saw

440
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 2: looking back at me was a dead man walking. And

441
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,640
Speaker 2: for the first time in my adult life ever, because

442
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 2: I had I've had a death wish my whole life.

443
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 2: At that moment, looking in that mirror the first time

444
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 2: in my life, was frightened to dying. But not only

445
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 2: was I frightened to dying, I was frightened of living

446
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 2: because I didn't think getting recovery was possible. I've never

447
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 2: seen anybody, especially with a heroin addiction, really genuinely ridgie

448
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 2: ditch turned their life around. I'd never seen it, so

449
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 2: I didn't think it was possible. And I was called

450
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 2: in no man's land. That's what he called hell on earth.

451
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 2: That's my bottom.

452
00:27:54,320 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 1: Dude, dude, Oh my god. That is that. That is loss,

453
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: that is full on, that is significant. That is Thank

454
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: you for sharing that like that. That gives a perspective

455
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 1: that I've heard a version of that a while ago,

456
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 1: but quite a while ago, but not not that, not

457
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: with that much clarity and not with that much kind

458
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: of detail. It's all right, let's let's park that. Let's

459
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: just put that on the shelf. By the way, that

460
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 1: might become the promo for this episode, by the way,

461
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 1: well done. Thanks for doing that, always thinking, always thinking, always,

462
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: I'm my DeFore Melissa is going to love that. They'll

463
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 1: turn that into it. But anyway, Now I want you

464
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: to talk about in your boxing career. So you were

465
00:28:54,880 --> 00:29:00,719
Speaker 1: thirty and today you're fifty three or something. Correct now,

466
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: correct whatever I fuck up? Correct me. But in the

467
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 1: not too distant past, in the last few years, you've

468
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: won a state boxing title, a South Asian or South

469
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: Pacific boxing title.

470
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 2: Asia Pacific SEC and middle A title.

471
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: And you've also won a world title in boxing. I mean,

472
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 1: do you ever think well, firstly, tell us about that.

473
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: Tell us about that dude you just described who just was.

474
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: I mean, that's about as close to dead as you

475
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: can be without banddad, right, And now tell me about

476
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: you know, two decades plus later being a world champion athlete,

477
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: obviously in masters and all that, but fucking hell, dude,

478
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: even just that you could even get through that and

479
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: run around the block as a major achievement, let alone

480
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: becoming an elite box So tell us about the highest

481
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,479
Speaker 1: point in the last few years in boxing.

482
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 2: Oh, there's been a few high points, but it's just

483
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 2: been there's been a couple of electric moments in here,

484
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 2: you know, like I remember, you know, my first seven

485
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 2: fights I lost, lost.

486
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: Do you know what I love that? I love that

487
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 1: you started with that I fucking love that because I'm

488
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 1: so much about that. That's my story, like the first

489
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: seven of everything I did. I lost the first six

490
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: hundred episodes of this show, the first six hundred episodes,

491
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: we lost Doe. Yeah, yeah, okay, so you lost the

492
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: first seven.

493
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I lost the first seven. But now is this.

494
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 2: There was a guy I fought on my first fight.

495
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 2: His name was Christopher Hume, not was is Christopher Hume yep,

496
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 2: and and Christy Hume. He stopped me. I think it

497
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 2: was in the second or third round, but he stopped me,

498
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 2: you know, able to referee stop the fight, and was

499
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,479
Speaker 2: you know, that was hard pill for me to swallow, right,

500
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 2: because it took me a lot to get to that.

501
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 2: But it took years and years and years of training

502
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 2: of brutality and you know, sas type training to get

503
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 2: to the point where I could actually get in the

504
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 2: ring like that. And it was, you know, it was

505
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 2: a big, big deal and he won it. And so

506
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 2: at the end of the fight, the announcers in the

507
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 2: ring and he's got the microphone and he's getting Chris

508
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:29,719
Speaker 2: to do to do a speech, and he says, oh,

509
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 2: do you want to say anything? And of course I

510
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 2: did the old grab the microphone out of his hand. Yeah, sure,

511
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 2: all I've got a few words to say, and I

512
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 2: gave my little speech and I don't know, I don't

513
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 2: know where this came from, but in that moment, but

514
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 2: I said to the crowd, I said, today, you know, like,

515
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 2: congratulations to Chris for winning the fight. You know it

516
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 2: was a better fighter on the night. But I said,

517
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:01,239
Speaker 2: but make no mistake, I will be back and I

518
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 2: will win a title. No matter what happens, I will

519
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 2: be back. And I left it. And of course the

520
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 2: crab an eye. Yeah, so you know what. So then

521
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 2: we go on. Then we have on another six fights

522
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 2: after that, and it's last, last, last, Now, if anybody

523
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 2: knows what it's like in sport or when you give

524
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 2: so much of yourself and and you'd lose. I mean,

525
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 2: as a fifty something year old man, I sat in

526
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 2: the changing rooms after a fight and I cried because

527
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 2: it hurt so bad to lose. Yea, and okay, probably

528
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 2: three of those seven fights I should have won, by

529
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 2: the way, but fucking judges. But anyway, that.

530
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: Just quickly, how old were you for your first fight?

531
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 2: It was forty nine or fifty forty forty nine.

532
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:06,239
Speaker 1: Now, how many how many unofficial fights did you have

533
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: in your life before the first sanctioned?

534
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 2: About fucking heaps.

535
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 1: I bet there weren't so many rules to comply with

536
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: in the old days.

537
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 2: No, there was other limbs and all sorts of things

538
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 2: that could use. But how's this right? So that happened.

539
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 2: And then, however, many fights later, I finally started to

540
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 2: get some wins, and I got an opportunity to fight

541
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 2: for a state title. And now I wanted this so bad.

542
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 2: I believe it was my destiny, you know. And all

543
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 2: this time I knew I was going to win a

544
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 2: title someday. I didn't know how. I couldn't, Like, I

545
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 2: just didn't know how it was going to happen, but

546
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 2: I knew that I was going to do it. Anyway,

547
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 2: this particular fight, I won the fucking state title right

548
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 2: like I was fucking unbelievable trip. And anyway, I'm standing

549
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 2: there at the end of the fight and they go yep,

550
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 2: the winner, you know, the blue corner, and the hand

551
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 2: goes up and I feel this belt just slapped around

552
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 2: my waist. This fucking it was so such electric feeling,

553
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 2: and get tied up around my waist and I look

554
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 2: around and gets who presented me the belt.

555
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 1: That beat you the first time?

556
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, chrissy him. That was electric right, like that was

557
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 2: fucking unbelievable. It's like, you know, icking told you I

558
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 2: was going to do this, you know, like ah, so

559
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 2: that was great, and then laid down the track. We

560
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,280
Speaker 2: got approached by the WBO, which is a well boxing

561
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 2: league and another fighter and they wanted to They're interested

562
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 2: in getting me involved in a in an Asia Pacific

563
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 2: title and we had to go and fight at a

564
00:34:55,640 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 2: place called Nerandra, which is Country, New South Wales. It's

565
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 2: about two hours or two and a half hours past

566
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 2: Aubrey and and it said on the on the info

567
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 2: for the fight said it was at the Henry Mathison Oval.

568
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 2: And thought, oh, that's interesting. It must be pavilion or

569
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 2: something there. So I rock up there the day before.

570
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 2: The whole teams with me. We'll go and have a

571
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 2: look at this venue. Well we go to this venue.

572
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 2: Fuck me dead if I'm lying. They're setting a fucking

573
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 2: ring up in the middle of the oval and it's

574
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 2: going to be going to be held under the footy lights.

575
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 2: I'm thinking I've come to Country, New South Wales. To

576
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,959
Speaker 2: have a fucking blue on the oval unbelievable. But it

577
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 2: is one of the best experiences I've ever had. It

578
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 2: was amazing night I won the Asia Pacific super Middleweight

579
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 2: title WVL super Middleweight title. And when I won that

580
00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 2: fight and it was a unanimous decision, I got, you know,

581
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 2: I've got the other guy on a standing eight count.

582
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 2: I just did. I did so well. And as they

583
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 2: raised my hand and they and and Gary Saint Clair

584
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 2: came in and put the belt around my waist. I

585
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 2: looked over the over the ropes and my son was

586
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 2: standing in the crowd, and I don't and I know

587
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 2: how much my son loves me and how proud of

588
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 2: me he is, but I've never seen pride in his

589
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 2: eyes more than what was there that day. I can't

590
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 2: explain the feeling like my whole team was there, so

591
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 2: my coaches and all the fight team were there. We

592
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,399
Speaker 2: went back to the motel room afterwards, and I mean,

593
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 2: and I don't drink or anything, so I having me

594
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 2: my soda waters and a big, big parmeshama and and

595
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 2: we sat down and we laughed and joked and just

596
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 2: lived the moment all night.

597
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:02,439
Speaker 1: That's amazing. That's amazing and in the present, like, could

598
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 1: you in your wildest dreams, you know, when you looked

599
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: at yourself in the mirror in that factory at thirty,

600
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: your face was fucked up, you had no teeth. You know,

601
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 1: you were at death's door, well heading towards the door.

602
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: And to picture that you would be this highly trained, fit, strong,

603
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 1: fucking athlete boxing in front of lots of people and

604
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,439
Speaker 1: winning titles. I mean what I love about that too

605
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 1: is and I mean this with respect, like I think, well, one,

606
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: your body was a bit fucked up from jumping off

607
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,760
Speaker 1: that bridge. That certainly didn't help the athletic career.

608
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,720
Speaker 2: You know, it doesn't help when you're a right hander

609
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 2: and midway through you've got to You've got to relearn

610
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 2: boxing left handed and only fight left handed.

611
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 1: Why did that happen?

612
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,800
Speaker 2: Because I couldn't get the proper balance as an orthodox

613
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 2: fider the stands, because the Rye league, I couldn't get

614
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 2: the right balance. So I had to change stance and

615
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 2: start fighting left handed. Wow. I'm now a way better

616
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 2: fighter left handed than right.

617
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 1: Wow. And I mean, what a credit to you mate

618
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 1: that we spoke earlier about just dealing with hardship and

619
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: resilience and figuring it out and solving problems. And you know,

620
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 1: it's like, there are so many analogies with surviving prison

621
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:33,760
Speaker 1: and surviving whatever, navigating prison, coming out the other side,

622
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: coming out the other side of addiction. I don't know

623
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 1: if we want to call it that, but you know,

624
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 1: a boxing career, building businesses, trying to figure yourself out,

625
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 1: like my biggest projects, me your biggest pro That's literally

626
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 1: why I called this show the You Project, Because irrespective

627
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 1: of who I talk to, what we talk about, what

628
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 1: they do for a job, where they live, everybody's biggest

629
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 1: challenges them selves, right, Like I think, putting aside like

630
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 1: the fundamentals of food and safety and security and a

631
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: few bucks obviously that's paramount, but put that aside, I

632
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,320
Speaker 1: reckon the biggest challenge for humans is managing our mind.

633
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: If you can't manage your mind, you're fucked.

634
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 2: You're fucked.

635
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:21,359
Speaker 1: Yeah.

636
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah. When I talk about life, when someone says,

637
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 2: you know, like, how's life, how's your life? To me,

638
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 2: it's about how's my thinking? Yeah, that's where I live.

639
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, if you can, if you can sort that out,

640
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 1: and even you think about at the other end of that,

641
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,319
Speaker 1: or the flip side of that is you see someone

642
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: who's got and I'm speaking in general terms, but a

643
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 1: good life in inverted commas, and by that living in

644
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,800
Speaker 1: a good joint, got a good car, got some dough.

645
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 1: From the outside looking in in terms of society or

646
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 1: norms or values, you go, wow, she's going great or

647
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 1: he's going great. I mean, good job, they're in good shape.

648
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 1: They're ticking all these boxes. But how many of those people?

649
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: And not to say one equals the other, but definitely,

650
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: having a good life in inverted commas wink wink doesn't

651
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: necessarily equal happiness or calmness or joy or fulfillment or

652
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 1: emotional or mental health. No, you know, because the like

653
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 1: where life happens is out there, where living happens is

654
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: in here. You know. It's that it's like an internal

655
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 1: journey and we just happen to be navigating it in

656
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: a three dimensional physical space where we're bumping into other

657
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 1: Fuck we it's like us, you know, it's like it's

658
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 1: so we are so focused on the external world, like

659
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:57,319
Speaker 1: all we're so worried about what people see, while so

660
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: really addressing the stuff that people don't see. And that's

661
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 1: for me. This is what this is, what these conversations

662
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,760
Speaker 1: are about, is addressing the stuff that people don't see

663
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 1: so much. You know, is that internal you know, feelings, thoughts, ideas,

664
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: you know, joy, paining, pleasure, fucking hope, emotional poverty, you know, isolation,

665
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 1: self doubt, self loathing, self love, optimism. You know. It's like,

666
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: if you can start to navigate and manage all of

667
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:33,359
Speaker 1: that that internal world that is you, then maybe your

668
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,759
Speaker 1: life experience on top of your life situation, but your

669
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 1: life experience would be fucking awesome.

670
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 2: Mate, fucking I still love an old mate of mind

671
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 2: is passed on now that we used to coin the

672
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 2: late great Jolly Knight Jack. Yeah, he used to say

673
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 2: a mickey voice, is we travel first class on a

674
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 2: second class ticket, mate, And I love that shit. He's right.

675
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 2: I love always travel first class and a second class ticket.

676
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 2: No problem with me as long as my things all right.

677
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 2: And I'm a good mattitude of gratitude. Mate, I'm good.

678
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: I'm sure you are well, mate. I always love talking

679
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 1: to you. I love your insights, I love your wisdom,

680
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 1: I love your real world experience. I love your fucking stories.

681
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,760
Speaker 1: Thanks for giving me a great story for the primo.

682
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: If you could come up with another one for next time,

683
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: that'd be beautiful. We appreciate you being on the You project,

684
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 1: and keep doing what you're doing, and keep learning and

685
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 1: growing and inspiring the rest of us. Mate, Thanks for

686
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 1: your time, buddy.

687
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 2: Join your Craig. Thanks mate,