Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is
Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Policing is
Speaker 1: a robust occupation with a strong culture. In such organizations,
Speaker 1: it takes a person of characters to stand up for
Speaker 1: what they believe in, maintain their integrity, and speak up
Speaker 1: when they need to. That's exactly what today's guest, retired
Speaker 1: Superintendent Mark Ainsworth, was known for throughout his career. I
Speaker 1: never got to work with Mark. He was a member
Speaker 1: of the Queensland Police for thirty eight years and he
Speaker 1: worked on a number of investigations, including the horrific murder
Speaker 1: of Alison baden Clay, who is killed by a husband
Speaker 1: in twenty twelve. From what I know about Mark, he's
Speaker 1: the type of cop I respect. We'll be talking about
Speaker 1: his stellar police career, getting his thoughts on fighting crime,
Speaker 1: and will break down the investigation into the horrific murder
Speaker 1: of Allison baden Clay. Mark Ainsworth, Welcome to I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2: Thanks very much, Gary, nice to be here.
Speaker 1: A well, we've had quite a few chats, but we're
Speaker 1: talking just before we got on Mike about life outside
Speaker 1: the police. How are you finding that?
Speaker 2: Absolutely fantastic. I think I wish you would have done
Speaker 2: it years ago. There's life after policing, and I think
Speaker 2: the policing career puts people in a good stead to
Speaker 2: look at life after policing.
Speaker 1: It's interesting you say that. I think when we're in
Speaker 1: police we feel that we're pigeonholed and policing is all
Speaker 1: that we can do. But the skill set you develop
Speaker 1: throughout policing is so broad that it is readily transferable
Speaker 1: outside the outside of the organization.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent over our careers. You know, many many years,
Speaker 2: you see a lot of things, you learn a lot
Speaker 2: of things, and you become very diverse in your thinking
Speaker 2: and capabilities and transferring that to outside of policing is
Speaker 2: very very valuable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just where the conversation has taken this here. I
Speaker 1: often thought with policing because across the country and I
Speaker 1: think overseas as well, there's difficulty filling police forces for
Speaker 1: applicants or people that want a career in policing. I
Speaker 1: always thought during policing it would be good to be
Speaker 1: able to step away from it, do something else, freshen up,
Speaker 1: do something for a couple of years, and then come
Speaker 1: back to policing. But we don't I'm speaking here on
Speaker 1: New South Wales, we don't really have that career path
Speaker 1: or those options. You can take leave without pay, but
Speaker 1: it's quite difficult. What's your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2: Look? I tend to agree with that, and Queensland Police
Speaker 2: had the same when I was in that you could
Speaker 2: take a career break for twelve months and go and
Speaker 2: try something different then come back, or if you enjoyed
Speaker 2: what you're doing in that career break, you could leave
Speaker 2: the police and I think it's a great thing these days,
Speaker 2: particularly in attracting and retaining police, where it gives them
Speaker 2: an opportunity to freshen up. Go and see what it's
Speaker 2: like in the real world, and if you don't like it,
Speaker 2: come back to the police, and I think you come
Speaker 2: back with a different mindset and a level of commitment
Speaker 2: once you see what happens in other areas, or alternatively,
Speaker 2: you think, well, this life outside of the police is
Speaker 2: for me. And I think, as you just said, I
Speaker 2: think with the attraction retention rate of police all across
Speaker 2: the world, it's something that needs to be considered. And
Speaker 2: you know, is twelve months long enough for a career break.
Speaker 2: You know, the people that look for the career breaks
Speaker 2: have generally got a wealth of experience under their belt,
Speaker 2: so you know, it's pretty scary seeing organizations losing people
Speaker 2: that skill set after all the money invested in for
Speaker 2: training and the experience they get. So I think, yeah,
Speaker 2: I think there needs to be some options.
Speaker 1: As you said, I know, I took twelve months leave
Speaker 1: without pay, and in a long career, it did freshen
Speaker 1: me up. I did some things. I was doing a
Speaker 1: little bit of work during that break, By the time
Speaker 1: that twelve months was up, I was itching to get
Speaker 1: back into get back into policing. I was really looking
Speaker 1: forward to it. Another thing I'd like to see with policing.
Speaker 1: Then again we're going off track, but with your experience
Speaker 1: in policing, I'd like to see our skill set as
Speaker 1: a police officer. I'm a new South Wales Police officer.
Speaker 1: You're Queensland Police officer nationally recognized, so we could transfer
Speaker 1: at the equivalent rank to Queensland, Like it's a qualification
Speaker 1: that you have, you're a certified police officer. Yeah, they'd
Speaker 1: neither a fresher course, but not start at the bottom
Speaker 1: because I because of relationships. At one point in time,
Speaker 1: I was considering starting over in Perth, but I really
Speaker 1: I would have had to start at the bottom and
Speaker 1: work my way up again, even though I had twenty
Speaker 1: twenty five years experience in policing. Do you think that's
Speaker 1: another thing that could could help attract people and make
Speaker 1: it a little bit more flexible.
Speaker 2: Look, I think so, and I think all thoughts have
Speaker 2: got to be on the table. As you said, your
Speaker 2: skill set is a police officer. You don't lose particular
Speaker 2: skills because I moved from Queensland to Victoria or New
Speaker 2: South Wales. You know you've got to be across the
Speaker 2: relative legislation in those areas, which police officers pick that
Speaker 2: up very very quickly. But I think that's another option
Speaker 2: that if you can transfer anywhere in Australia, that's a
Speaker 2: great option for police to attract them and if they
Speaker 2: want to move a family to another area, I think
Speaker 2: that's a very very good option. I think it should
Speaker 2: be on the table to consider. And I think it's
Speaker 2: not only queen'sine on New South White Wales alone that
Speaker 2: are struggling to attract police and retain them. And I
Speaker 2: think if they all work together to come up with
Speaker 2: a strategy similar to this, it'd be quite easily achievable.
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I think it's a solution or possible solution.
Speaker 1: Now I understand the type of police officer you were,
Speaker 1: and we're going to talk in detail about your police career,
Speaker 1: but you've also since you've left the police, you've offered
Speaker 1: up some strong, strong thoughts on youth crime and thirty
Speaker 1: eight years in the police force, I think you're entitled
Speaker 1: to offer opinions. One was about holding parents or guardians
Speaker 1: responsible for the behavior of their children. Legislating that again,
Speaker 1: it's thinking outside the box. What were your thoughts behind
Speaker 1: that when you raised it. I think it was on
Speaker 1: a Current Affair interview or an article.
Speaker 2: Gary, I've had a lot of thoughts about it and
Speaker 2: being out of the police and just looking at what
Speaker 2: was going on, particularly in our communities up here in
Speaker 2: Queens and you're looking at Keynes towns for the Gold Coast,
Speaker 2: but even my own local community where it was a
Speaker 2: common denominator in conversations, people fearing what's going to happen
Speaker 2: to themselves or the houses or the youth crime I'm
Speaker 2: running around out of control. Years ago as a young
Speaker 2: uniform officer, this issue was discussed in the around the
Speaker 2: Children's Services Department and Juvenile Aid bureaus at the time
Speaker 2: about you know, holding parents accountable for restitution, you know,
Speaker 2: if someone breaks into a house or damage or something,
Speaker 2: holding the parents accountable and it never moved, it never
Speaker 2: proceeded from there. Now my thoughts on the accountability of
Speaker 2: parents and guardians, it comes back to a common sense
Speaker 2: approach in my view, and maybe people might think it's
Speaker 2: out of the box, but where does a parent know
Speaker 2: where the kid is at three o'clock in the morning,
Speaker 2: should that parent know where they are? I'm talking twelve, thirteen,
Speaker 2: fourteen year old kids. You know you've got to have licenses,
Speaker 2: you know, to look after certain animals, and you know
Speaker 2: you're responsible for their well being and you're held accountable.
Speaker 2: What's the difference between holding a parent or a guardian
Speaker 2: accountable for the behavior or whereabouts their kids at that
Speaker 2: hour of the morning or even regardless of that that morning,
Speaker 2: you know, where is their accountability in relation to their
Speaker 2: criminal activities? And look, I'm not saying this relates to
Speaker 2: all parents and guardians. I understand that some parents and
Speaker 2: guardians are at their wits end trying to control their
Speaker 2: kids and conform with laws and what's expected in the community.
Speaker 2: But it's one suggestion I think governments need to look at.
Speaker 1: I think there's some merit there. As radical as that
Speaker 1: might sound and sort of fly in the face of
Speaker 1: what we understand with the justice system. But as police officers,
Speaker 1: we've seen the situations, haven't we. You pick a kid
Speaker 1: up at twelve or thirteen year old that's out on
Speaker 1: the streets at two am, and yeah, they say it
Speaker 1: for adults, no good comes after midnight if you're out
Speaker 1: on the street, well, it's pretty much guaranteed that if
Speaker 1: you're a young kid and you're wandering the streets at
Speaker 1: that time of the night, you're going to get up
Speaker 1: to mischief. And then you take the child home and
Speaker 1: you realize that there's no supervision, and it's not blaming
Speaker 1: the child, but maybe have people take responsibility for the
Speaker 1: children that they're raising. So I'm sure there'll be a
Speaker 1: lot of pushback for it, but again, we've got to
Speaker 1: look at solutions, haven't we.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent? And I was quite critical there about
Speaker 2: you know, the government up here is wanting to increase penalties,
Speaker 2: legislate for harsher penalties. But you know, in all reality,
Speaker 2: how often does a juvenile or for that matter, an
Speaker 2: adult receive the maximum penalty or a stiffer penalty. So
Speaker 2: if you want to increase a penalty for I don't know,
Speaker 2: for assault to fourteen sixteen years, is that a deterrent
Speaker 2: for the kid at the time, And I'd argue it's not.
Speaker 2: And I think in my view, it's just an easy
Speaker 2: way out for the government to say we're tightening things up,
Speaker 2: we're increasing our penalties where you're not looking at the
Speaker 2: core issues that are going on. You've only got to
Speaker 2: look and you'd know first hand the receivitism rate of
Speaker 2: these offenders that are getting charged by the police. Please
Speaker 2: doing a good job. Put them before the court they
Speaker 2: get or if they get sentenced to a child facility,
Speaker 2: they're meeting with like minded kids and they come out
Speaker 2: in most times and reoffend. A part of my suggestion
Speaker 2: there was and look, I equate this back to the
Speaker 2: baby bonus that was introduced by the Labor government back
Speaker 2: in around the time of the global financial crisis, where
Speaker 2: five thousand dollars was given to women that had kids
Speaker 2: as a baby bonners. My wife has got friends that
Speaker 2: works in child safety and an area up here north
Speaker 2: of Brisbane had something like a thirty percent increase on
Speaker 2: children being and dropped on the doorsteps of child safety
Speaker 2: by particularly young females who got the five thousand dollars
Speaker 2: baby bonners ran out, bought TVs, put drugs up their
Speaker 2: arms and here's society trying to look after those kids.
Speaker 2: So I equate back to there, and you look at
Speaker 2: you know, the age group of kids that are offending
Speaker 2: up here now or are offending. You've got that twelve
Speaker 2: to fourteen age group which is very predominant, and that
Speaker 2: puts a lot of them into that category. I'm not
Speaker 2: saying all, but a lot. I think that the idea
Speaker 2: there needs to be some thinking out of the box
Speaker 2: in relation to custodial sentences. Now, what I suggested previously
Speaker 2: was considering, and the media ran with it as a
Speaker 2: boot camp. It wasn't. The terminology of boot camp wasn't
Speaker 2: what I really meant. It was a diversion system. And
Speaker 2: this system's nothing new. It's worked. I know there's a
Speaker 2: group of businessmen that set up a similar sort of
Speaker 2: setup in the Kakadou area where a lot of indigenous
Speaker 2: people of alcohol problems. So they set it up as
Speaker 2: a diversionary system to get these people to come into
Speaker 2: that area and learn farming skills, break the cycle of
Speaker 2: drinking alcohol, becoming drunk, offending. And the actual program they've
Speaker 2: got has been an outseeing success. And this is run
Speaker 2: by individuals who have the wealth to set up a program. Now, sorry,
Speaker 2: it's in the I could do. I think it might
Speaker 2: be up in the Kimberley's there. But what they've done
Speaker 2: is they've developed a skill set for people coming into
Speaker 2: that area, they learn farming schools, they learn training skills.
Speaker 2: They've got a psychologist that comes up and talks to
Speaker 2: the people on their arrival and during their stay there.
Speaker 2: But they've also linked up with university in New South
Speaker 2: Wales to allow some leadership and education and the whole
Speaker 2: program is working very well now. Equating that back to
Speaker 2: a juvenile type problem, I'm talking in what I did
Speaker 2: mention was in remote or rural areas where the kids
Speaker 2: can be diverted from the court system to an area
Speaker 2: where they can get an education, learn some farming schools,
Speaker 2: learn a trade, but more importantly getting them away from
Speaker 2: social media, so no farns, no computers, and just learning
Speaker 2: life skills that we probably learn as kids growing up
Speaker 2: without the computers. And the other part of that is
Speaker 2: is the kids that would like the opportunity to do that.
Speaker 2: And I don't think we should discriminate between the offenders,
Speaker 2: but at the kids that would love the opportunity to
Speaker 2: do that should be given the opportunity as well. And
Speaker 2: as I mentioned earlier on, you might have parents that
Speaker 2: are just at wits end about trying to deal with
Speaker 2: their kids. They're the sort of people that you know,
Speaker 2: their child gets an opportunity to go there, they learn
Speaker 2: the proper skill set, they get an education, they learn
Speaker 2: about respect behavior, and it's something that I think we
Speaker 2: need to try because what's working now, what's not working
Speaker 2: now is the system that's been around for many, many years.
Speaker 1: Well, Mark what you just said, and I didn't interrupt
Speaker 1: you because I'm fascinated by your take on it. And
Speaker 1: if people dissect little parts of that, they'll go, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: ex scop talking tough them, send them to a camp.
Speaker 1: But the way that you explained it and articulated it
Speaker 1: really breaks it down. And I personally, not just from
Speaker 1: my experience in police life, just life itself, what you're
Speaker 1: suggesting there is sounds like a worthwhile thing to pursue.
Speaker 1: And I balance that's it out because people that might
Speaker 1: hear you talk or hear two X cops talking crack
Speaker 1: down on crime. I'm really glad that you talk about
Speaker 1: You don't think you just need to strengthen the legislation
Speaker 1: all the time, because I never saw that working in
Speaker 1: policing the whole time I was in police. And you know, Okay,
Speaker 1: we're going to increase stealing a car from seven years
Speaker 1: to fourteen years. That's not what the offenders, specially kids,
Speaker 1: are thinking about when they're committing the crime. And the
Speaker 1: way you describe that is you're breaking a cycle, really,
Speaker 1: aren't you. You talk about recidivism. You're trying something different,
Speaker 1: pull them from that environment and steer them and point
Speaker 1: them in the right direction.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. And as I said, it's nothing new.
Speaker 2: It happens overseas the example I gave there with the
Speaker 2: First Nations people, it does work. And I think the
Speaker 2: money we're spending on building new child attention centers and
Speaker 2: that the money diverted to an area like that. Even
Speaker 2: for trial, we have a politician up in the Far
Speaker 2: Nor Queens and Robie Catter who's supportive of it, and
Speaker 2: I think even for trial, it's worthwhile going through that effort.
Speaker 2: And you know, it'd be interesting to see the success
Speaker 2: rate of it as well. And I'm not saying it's
Speaker 2: going to be one hundred percent successful. Nothing is. But
Speaker 2: it's trying something different to try and break the cycle
Speaker 2: of a life of criminality.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, anything you try is not going to be
Speaker 1: one hundred percent success, but if you can help one
Speaker 1: person's life, I think the fact that someone like yourself,
Speaker 1: with your experience, is talking about that. I hope people
Speaker 1: listen and on the issue of politics, and you rose
Speaker 1: to the rank of superintendent, so you understand politics, not
Speaker 1: just within the police, but politics in itself. Quite often
Speaker 1: in state elections it becomes a they said, well we're
Speaker 1: going to take the polar opposite. You need to bipartisan approach,
Speaker 1: don't you to find the problem that's affecting everyone.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent? And I think from when I first started,
Speaker 2: and when you know, when you first start and the police,
Speaker 2: you know, you're not aware of all the politics and
Speaker 2: the political games that are played. But as you grow
Speaker 2: through the ranks and your service expands and you see
Speaker 2: what happens. I think there needs to be a separation
Speaker 2: of powers from the police commissioner and the policing minister
Speaker 2: or government up here. And my views on this, I'm
Speaker 2: sure a lot of people will smack them down. But
Speaker 2: you've only got to look at the COVID situation which happened,
Speaker 2: and I'm pretty sure it happened in other jurisdictions. Police
Speaker 2: became babysitters at motels. Now cost the community a hell
Speaker 2: of a lot of money. Now, why do the police
Speaker 2: have to get dragged into doing that when you could
Speaker 2: have security guards, you could have other people there performing
Speaker 2: that role. If someone doesn't conform with requirements, you call
Speaker 2: the police to deal with that person. I think from
Speaker 2: what I'm seeing is the police, particularly up here in Queensland,
Speaker 2: are used as a stopgap measure for other duties which
Speaker 2: are not necessarily policing duties. The police everywhere operate twenty
Speaker 2: four to seven. Government departments shut their doors at five
Speaker 2: o'clock and everything after that becomes a policing problem, which,
Speaker 2: in my view, in a lot of instances, takes police
Speaker 2: away from doing what their core role is. You look
Speaker 2: at COVID, you look at the number of number of
Speaker 2: hours and the amount of money spent on overtime. Having
Speaker 2: police sitting outside buildings babysitting that to me was an
Speaker 2: absolutely ridiculous scenario when there's plenty of other work that
Speaker 2: the police could be doing which is relevant to their roles.
Speaker 1: Well, if you're worried about people smacking you down, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to smack you down about that one because
Speaker 1: I agree wholeheartedly and I think there needs to be
Speaker 1: the separation of powers between the police the politicians. And
Speaker 1: the courts. I think all those areas need their own
Speaker 1: autonomy and sometimes lines get blurred and that you made
Speaker 1: a point there. I hadn't even thought along those lines
Speaker 1: that who are you going to call the police? There're
Speaker 1: twenty four to seven, you know, if there's a problem,
Speaker 1: and then we delve into mental health issues. And I
Speaker 1: know in New Southway, Queensland, across the country, police are
Speaker 1: getting frustrated that they feel like they've been brought into
Speaker 1: these mental health situations where that's not ideally their role.
Speaker 1: That's the way police get used up.
Speaker 2: And you're right, Look, policing has changed over the years.
Speaker 2: You know, you look at the three big factors affecting
Speaker 2: police at the moment. Domestic violence number one issue across Australia,
Speaker 2: mental health, as you said up here in Queensland, the
Speaker 2: number of police shootings we've had recently involving patients with
Speaker 2: mental health that are threatening police, threatening other people and
Speaker 2: the police are forced to act. And youth crime, you know,
Speaker 2: youth crime or crime is core business of police. Police
Speaker 2: go there to keep the peace. Domestic violence, they go
Speaker 2: there to keep the peace, but it's a whole of
Speaker 2: community problem. Mental health is a whole of community problem.
Speaker 2: But far too often a police held accountable for what
Speaker 2: they've done dealing at a domestic violence issue, or what they
Speaker 2: haven't done dealing with mental health people. And I think
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of the police are unfairly targeted.
Speaker 2: And look, I'm first to admit a lot of police,
Speaker 2: and I'm not going to say high percentage of small
Speaker 2: percentage of police. We'll do the probably not follow through
Speaker 2: things and do things properly, but you get that in
Speaker 2: every occupation. What I am saying is that I think
Speaker 2: there needs to be a reset of the responsibilities and
Speaker 2: requirements of police in each jurisdiction.
Speaker 1: It all makes sense and we could talk on all
Speaker 1: those subjects for the full podcast, but let's talk about
Speaker 1: yourself for a bit. Your career. Why did you join
Speaker 1: the police? Were you were you born into the job?
Speaker 1: Was it something you always aspired to or did you
Speaker 1: trip into it?
Speaker 2: No? I sort of tripped into it. I've got no
Speaker 2: family members at all in the police. Were never had
Speaker 2: been an uncle through marriage. He was in the fingerprint
Speaker 2: section up here in Brisbane and he started talking about
Speaker 2: the police one day and I was fortunate enough that
Speaker 2: he had approval to take me out on a weekend
Speaker 2: when I was in year eleven at school and saw
Speaker 2: what he did and got really excited and interested, and
Speaker 2: that changed my mind about wanting to join the police.
Speaker 2: So year twelve, I was going through Kedrin High School,
Speaker 2: did the application to apply to get into the police,
Speaker 2: and then January the following year, I started at the
Speaker 2: Police Academy as a seventeen year old and that was
Speaker 2: my life.
Speaker 1: I laughed, because you're come in, and especially as a
Speaker 1: seven eeen year old. I joined a little bit later,
Speaker 1: but as a seven eeen year old you would have
Speaker 1: no idea about the world you were about to step into.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent Gary and back in those days here
Speaker 2: I did an eighteen month training and cadeticia. It was
Speaker 2: eighteen months, so I had all these fellows the same age.
Speaker 2: You weren't allowed to get sworn in until you're nineteen
Speaker 2: years of age, and unfortunately for me, I was not
Speaker 2: nineteen when I finished my training, so I was used
Speaker 2: as a bit of a gopher. But in saying that
Speaker 2: learned a lot of things. I helped a prosecute to
Speaker 2: carry his bags and sit in court and learned a
Speaker 2: hell of a lot. And you know that was great,
Speaker 2: But I can still remember my very first night out
Speaker 2: and my very first arrest was for the big offense
Speaker 2: of drunk in a public place. I went home that
Speaker 2: night and I shitting myself if I'd done everything right.
Speaker 2: You know, it was that bloke really drunk, you know,
Speaker 2: questioning yourself because she said, it's a new world. But
Speaker 2: you know, you learn back then from experience police you're
Speaker 2: working with. You got some good advice from sergeants and
Speaker 2: senior servants and workmates, and your skills just developed there.
Speaker 2: But you're right, you know, I saw a lot of
Speaker 2: things as a nineteen twenty year old, and I'm sure
Speaker 2: you did that a lot of kids my age would
Speaker 2: never ever see. And you grow up very very quickly from.
Speaker 1: That the experiences and the importance of having a good
Speaker 1: mentor your first arrest was someone drunk. Mine was a
Speaker 1: tick of the vader. I didn't realize. I honestly didn't
Speaker 1: realize you could summons a person for that offense. And
Speaker 1: I arrested him and he just happened to be a
Speaker 1: local guy that had been creating a lot of problems.
Speaker 1: All the other police thought I has been a tough guy,
Speaker 1: arresting this blope for a Asian, I didn't know you
Speaker 1: could subpoena people for or issue a summons. Say they
Speaker 1: thought I was just being a hard as so oh yeah, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I knew what I was doing. But yeah, the mistakes
Speaker 1: you can make. And I feel sorry for the younger
Speaker 1: police today because society, well, we didn't have the phones,
Speaker 1: it wasn't all CCTV footage, and we just didn't seem
Speaker 1: as accountable. And if you made a mistake, you'd have someone,
Speaker 1: someone that you could trust, a mentor that would say, look,
Speaker 1: that's not how we do things. This is how we
Speaker 1: do things, and you would learn and you'd gravitate towards
Speaker 1: people that will see you in the right direction. But
Speaker 1: today's please don't have that luxury, do they.
Speaker 2: No, I think the level of accountability has gone through
Speaker 2: the roof. And as you said, look, I remember before
Speaker 2: I retired, there was a sieed situation down in the
Speaker 2: city mall here in the middle of the day, a
Speaker 2: feller armed with a firearm, and I was an acting
Speaker 2: chief super at that stage, and I attended the scene,
Speaker 2: and I could not believe everyone in the crowd who
Speaker 2: had been pushed right away from it, just there with
Speaker 2: their cameras up in the air, photographing every movement of
Speaker 2: everyone there. And as you said, we never had that.
Speaker 2: These days you'll see on media, you know, the police,
Speaker 2: you know doing something, you know, assaulting someone. They show
Speaker 2: that one part. They don't tell the full story. Now
Speaker 2: there's always two sides to every story. That is a
Speaker 2: real difficult thing these days. And it's not only policing.
Speaker 2: Sports people see it. Policing now is very, very difficult
Speaker 2: and I was only thinking about it last night.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: When I was first in the police as a youngster,
Speaker 2: the biggest issue then was heroin. We had the Biki
Speaker 2: Bandit's running around, you know, using firearms that the rob
Speaker 2: banks to get their money to boff up on heroin.
Speaker 2: Then they sleep it off and become mellow. These days,
Speaker 2: you've got a lot more situations that police have to
Speaker 2: deal with, as we said, mental health that's you know,
Speaker 2: that's in a horrific area, and the different forms of
Speaker 2: drugs getting out there now on the level of violence.
Speaker 2: I wasn't even issued a firearm when I first started
Speaker 2: in the job. It took about six months before we
Speaker 2: got one. I had a handcuff and a baton. But
Speaker 2: you look at the police now what they're kitted out with.
Speaker 2: You know, you've got your tasers, you've got your capsicn spray,
Speaker 2: your firearms, but they've got a choice of different different
Speaker 2: devices to use. But back in my day, that's all
Speaker 2: we had. And can I say that I don't think
Speaker 2: the level of violence was around us what it is now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, true, true, And with all the tactical options that
Speaker 1: they have with the level of training, I should say
Speaker 1: lack a level of training that makes it very difficult too.
Speaker 2: I had the.
Speaker 1: Gun and the handcuffs and you'd go in there to
Speaker 1: make the rest and then yeah, the OC spray came out,
Speaker 1: the taser comes out, and I look at the police
Speaker 1: what they got on their belts now and under pressure
Speaker 1: in a critical moment, there's so many options. I don't know.
Speaker 1: It just seemed to be easier when we had the
Speaker 1: big battons and you knew what you were going to do.
Speaker 1: If you couldn't contain this person physically, you had a baton,
Speaker 1: and if it escalated, you had a gun. Now there's
Speaker 1: so many different options which needed to be bored in.
Speaker 1: But I think the training needs to come in that
Speaker 1: people feel comfortable using all those different devices or weapons.
Speaker 2: And look, I think back in the day to communication
Speaker 2: which you go to an effective communication with people. But
Speaker 2: I think the young police these days, you know, trying
Speaker 2: to communicate with someone that's drug effected, someone that's got
Speaker 2: mental health issues. It's a huge challenge.
Speaker 1: And on it too, the respect has gone for police
Speaker 1: to a degree. Just a society for a variety of reasons,
Speaker 1: is not respecting authority. And you talked about the COVID period.
Speaker 1: I don't think that helped a lot of people liking
Speaker 1: police around this area in Sydney. Helicopters hovering around, police
Speaker 1: helicopters checking if people are out of their homes. It
Speaker 1: doesn't create a good relationship between the community and the
Speaker 1: police that were there to serve the community.
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I agree. I think there's a lot of
Speaker 2: learnings from COVID that we can take away from it.
Speaker 2: And I think the big thing is working in well
Speaker 2: during the COVID period. I was at the Racing Integrity
Speaker 2: Commission here and racing still continued during the COVID period,
Speaker 2: but we had a group of people within the industry stakeholders.
Speaker 2: We worked together to put in things in place on
Speaker 2: how people could still earn their living, how people could
Speaker 2: still race, but conforming with all the COVID legislation. And
Speaker 2: I think that was quite effective in doing that. There
Speaker 2: was a mutual understanding between all the parties involved as
Speaker 2: what we needed to do, how we conformed, and I
Speaker 2: think that worked pretty well from a policing point of view. Again,
Speaker 2: you know, police were thrown into the ring. There was
Speaker 2: legislation developed and police had to enforce that legislation.
Speaker 1: Okay, tell us about your career. Just describe your career
Speaker 1: and I've got details of your career here and it's
Speaker 1: been wide and varied on different things, working with external organization,
Speaker 1: on special investigations, the Crime Commission. Tell us about your career.
Speaker 2: Well, go from the outset. I think policing is a
Speaker 2: fantastic career for anyone. You look at my CV there
Speaker 2: and I've had so many opportunities to do different things.
Speaker 2: One thing that really attracted me to the police was
Speaker 2: going in each day. You never knew what you're going
Speaker 2: to get up to what was coming your way. The
Speaker 2: other beauty is is the ability to transfer and move
Speaker 2: within the organization of different areas, which I think is
Speaker 2: a fantastic opportunity and getting right back to our very
Speaker 2: initial conversation here, upscilling yourself across a multitude of disciplines.
Speaker 2: I had my started off the same as everyone in
Speaker 2: uniform career, worked in traffic branch for several months. I
Speaker 2: didn't like it, went to suburban stations, absolutely loved it.
Speaker 2: You got to know your community, you got to know
Speaker 2: who the young people that needed a bit of attention
Speaker 2: in the area were. You're out patrolling meeting other people.
Speaker 2: And then I had thirty two years in playing close
Speaker 2: which I absolutely loved, running local cibs, working in local
Speaker 2: criminal investigation branches, and then I had the opportunity to
Speaker 2: do a number of other things, and probably one of
Speaker 2: the best opportunities I had was working at the Australian
Speaker 2: Crime Commission as the manager of the Queensland Office, but
Speaker 2: being given the head of Determination role for major and
Speaker 2: organized crime around Australia with task forces around Australia, and
Speaker 2: that was absolutely brilliant. You got to see how police
Speaker 2: and other jurisdictions operated and engaging with those people was fantastic.
Speaker 2: The Royal Commissions here, so I was as a constable
Speaker 2: seconded to the Fitzgerald Commission of Inquiry as as surveillance operative.
Speaker 2: There was five US initially that started that and that
Speaker 2: was a real eye out and for me, particularly at
Speaker 2: that stage in my career. And then you know, the
Speaker 2: Royal commissions on top of that, and did the Flood
Speaker 2: Raw Quincident Flood Royal Commission, which again was a very
Speaker 2: much annoye opener talking a lot of people who'd lost
Speaker 2: family members and friends through the flooding devastation right across
Speaker 2: the southeast corner. And then the Trade Union Raw Commission,
Speaker 2: which is very topical at the moment. And then since retiring,
Speaker 2: the DNA RLE Commission, the DV Commission, and a little
Speaker 2: bit in the Britney Higgins Commission down south. But probably
Speaker 2: out of all that period of time, I thoroughly enjoyed
Speaker 2: my playing clothes career. You saw, you met good people,
Speaker 2: you met more people, you saw the best and worst
Speaker 2: of people, and you know, I think it was great
Speaker 2: working in a very close knit team environment in those areas.
Speaker 1: You would have gone through the stage as a detective sergeant,
Speaker 1: whether you're in major crime or in local area commands
Speaker 1: at local police stations. I found that rank very rewarding.
Speaker 1: It was exciting. I don't know if it correlated with
Speaker 1: the stage of your life and career, but you finally
Speaker 1: the shackles are off, You've got the experience and you're
Speaker 1: going to start running jobs. Do you have memories or
Speaker 1: investigationations that you thought, yeah, I've found my passion.
Speaker 2: Certainly did, and I think as getting promoted to detective sergeant,
Speaker 2: as you said, is the big step, you think I
Speaker 2: finally made it. I was fortunate enough as a detective
Speaker 2: sergeant to run a local criminal investigation branch and had
Speaker 2: a great crew working under me, and that responsibility that
Speaker 2: came with that position was good. Ensuring that people were
Speaker 2: working with you were traveling down the same path as yourself,
Speaker 2: but also forming a close knit team. And you know, policing,
Speaker 2: in my view, it's like sport. If you haven't got
Speaker 2: a team not singing in the same direction, you're going
Speaker 2: to have problems. And I think molding that team, leading
Speaker 2: that team and to achieve results, you know, was quite enjoyable.
Speaker 1: Very satisfying. And I know you have a sporting background
Speaker 1: and interest and the way that you've described a team
Speaker 1: those even like working up to becoming a detective sergeant
Speaker 1: when and you thought, who are these wise old men
Speaker 1: or women that know all this information and can just
Speaker 1: make decisions like that. Then all of a sudden you
Speaker 1: look and you become that You become that person, and
Speaker 1: you've got what you think are young kids coming to
Speaker 1: you going what do we do now, boss or sage.
Speaker 1: But the teamwork aspect of it, they're my fond memories
Speaker 1: of when you had a good crew. Not all the
Speaker 1: same type of personalities. It was always a range of
Speaker 1: misfits and someone had a skill set here or there,
Speaker 1: and you had a job. You get an investigation and
Speaker 1: you follow it and you get that really satisfying moment
Speaker 1: where you've got the breakthrough all of a sudden this mystery.
Speaker 1: You know who's who the person is, and then you
Speaker 1: set your traps to catch that person.
Speaker 2: That's right. And I think you said you'd run a
Speaker 2: major instant room, and I'd always appreciate the staff that
Speaker 2: were there, whether it was the most you know, you
Speaker 2: have your briefings in the morning in the afternoon, and
Speaker 2: whether it was the most junior uniform constable and the
Speaker 2: most senior detective in the room. I always made the
Speaker 2: point of going around the room individually and from the
Speaker 2: outset saying, look, you've all come from different backgrounds, so
Speaker 2: you've all got different skills. Don't think your idea is
Speaker 2: stupid because we mightn't have thought about it, and encourage
Speaker 2: them to come forward and feel part of that team.
Speaker 2: And I think that's the best way to get results.
Speaker 2: You're embracing everyone's ideas, you're bringing them on board as
Speaker 2: part of the team and sort of singing from the
Speaker 2: same sheet.
Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. And I was shown that by
Speaker 1: people I respected. That is the way to get the
Speaker 1: best out of a team and let everyone and I
Speaker 1: think it also motivates people to think that they're part
Speaker 1: of it. And as you said, you could have the
Speaker 1: most junior person that's just straight out of uniform sitting
Speaker 1: there in awe of all these detectives but makes a
Speaker 1: comment that's probably the smartest comment, potentially could be the
Speaker 1: smartest comment in the room, and points you're in the direction.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. And it's just giving them the confidence
Speaker 2: to speak up that they're not going to be ridiculed
Speaker 2: if you know that people think it stupid.
Speaker 1: So I want to speak to you about the murder
Speaker 1: of Allison Baden Clay. But is there an investigation that
Speaker 1: you found particularly satisfying, as like one particular investigation that's
Speaker 1: with you other than Allison Baden Clay's murder that sticks
Speaker 1: with you, that you thought, Okay, this is what policing
Speaker 1: is all about.
Speaker 2: Yep. The Australian Crime Commission Victoria, when I was doing
Speaker 2: the Head of determination for the High Risk Crime Groups,
Speaker 2: we were working on an operation conjointly with the Piranha
Speaker 2: Task Force in Victoria and Customs in relation to the
Speaker 2: importation of a large quantity of extacy pills. We worked
Speaker 2: on that job for about twelve fourteen months and had
Speaker 2: a great, great team, great relationship with the other jurisdictions,
Speaker 2: and when it came to resolution, we uncovered four point
Speaker 2: two ton of ecstasy pills which were brought in to
Speaker 2: the ports in Victoria, which is still the largest single
Speaker 2: siege of ecstasy pills anywhere in the world. It came
Speaker 2: in tomato tins on a shipping container and the first
Speaker 2: couple of rows when the shipping container was unpacked were
Speaker 2: genuine tomato in the tins, and then as you got
Speaker 2: further back there was the ecstasy pills and that I
Speaker 2: just could not believe that the quantity of the sheer quantity.
Speaker 2: But the way that the three groups worked in together.
Speaker 1: Tell me, what does four point two tons worth of
Speaker 1: pills look like?
Speaker 2: A shiploads? Well, I think there was about fourteen can
Speaker 2: openers that they went through electric can openers, and it
Speaker 2: was amazing. A skip if you imagine a skip in
Speaker 2: half full of little pills. It was incredible.
Speaker 1: Right, So what's the street value of something like.
Speaker 2: That back then? They talked about seven hundred and fifty million,
Speaker 2: because I'm talking, you know, back two thousand and nine,
Speaker 2: twenty ten. The value that's very, very high. But the
Speaker 2: offender is what they did. The tomato tins. They were
Speaker 2: packed in boxes of six each of those tins to
Speaker 2: get the weight of the container consistent, so to get
Speaker 2: through any X ray or you know, checking by customs,
Speaker 2: they had to get the weight of the container ideal.
Speaker 2: So what they did is a number of tomato tins
Speaker 2: they filled up with rocks to make sure they had
Speaker 2: the weight correct and the rest were all pills. So
Speaker 2: it was a massive load. Never seen anything like it.
Speaker 1: You guys and girls really wrecked someone's party for that.
Speaker 1: Someone would have been disappointed with that type of seizure.
Speaker 2: I think so, and I think the ring leaders back
Speaker 2: in Italy were the ones that we become a little
Speaker 2: bit hot under the collar. They'd lost to that money
Speaker 2: and drugs. So yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Can imagine the reaction, the risk you take.
Speaker 2: When you want to get into those enterprises.
Speaker 1: Exactly how long was the investigation going on and what
Speaker 1: was the magnitude of the investigation.
Speaker 2: The investigation was a lot of electronic surveillance, physical surveillance,
Speaker 2: identification of suspects and what happened with this one. It
Speaker 2: was we had suspects in South Australia, Victoria, New South
Speaker 2: Wales from the Griffith area and Queensland, so there was
Speaker 2: a joint effort right across all those jurisdictions in relation
Speaker 2: to the targets we had. An investigation went on for many,
Speaker 2: many months. Even after the shipping container came in, it
Speaker 2: continued on there. I think it's a better least of
Speaker 2: the twelve months after that to round up all the offenders.
Speaker 1: Massive, massive investigation.
Speaker 2: To me, that was just a great example of working
Speaker 2: with other jurisdictions to get an outstanding result.
Speaker 1: There is a satisfaction there. Like I say to people,
Speaker 1: and I put my hand up that as a detective,
Speaker 1: you feel like you're a hunter. You're hunting the person,
Speaker 1: and people might say, oh, that's a bit extreme, but
Speaker 1: that's what you feel like. And if you're involved in
Speaker 1: investigation like that, and it comes through to fruition where
Speaker 1: the point where you recover four point two tons of
Speaker 1: ecstasy pills, it's you're on a bit of a high,
Speaker 1: aren't you after something like that?
Speaker 2: Oh, I look one hundred percent and I think you
Speaker 2: know it's again. I'll go back to the sport thing.
Speaker 2: You have a win, you celebrate, and I think that
Speaker 2: was one of the good things I liked about the
Speaker 2: team environment and the police. You had a good win.
Speaker 2: You know, you achieved a good result, and a very
Speaker 2: important part is celebrating as a team. And I think
Speaker 2: these days, you know, I'm not sure where that still
Speaker 2: occurs to the same extent as what had happened when
Speaker 2: you and I are in it, and I hope it does.
Speaker 2: I think that's a very important part of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because there's a lot that can be said negative
Speaker 1: side of the culture of police, but there was a
Speaker 1: lot of positive sides of the culture, that uniformity, that
Speaker 1: the brotherhood that there was good aspects of the culture.
Speaker 1: And we'll talk about the Fitzgerald inquiry. We had the
Speaker 1: Wood inquiry down here in New South Wales. I wonder
Speaker 1: if that misses with policing now because I don't know
Speaker 1: about you, but when I joined I joined policing as
Speaker 1: a lifetime career. It was a vacation. That's what I
Speaker 1: was going to do. I think people, from what I
Speaker 1: hear and you and I have both been out around
Speaker 1: about the same time, people are using as a stepping
Speaker 1: saying I'll have a look at policing, do that for
Speaker 1: a bit and then move onto something else, and so
Speaker 1: they don't invest as much as I think you need
Speaker 1: to when you're committed and you're a career police officer.
Speaker 2: Look, I agree with you as I said, I left
Speaker 2: from school straight into policing. That's all I knew from
Speaker 2: the age of seventeen to the age I got out,
Speaker 2: and I knew that I had a career path in
Speaker 2: front of me. I knew if I didn't want to
Speaker 2: be a uniform off so I could go into forensics,
Speaker 2: I could go and become a detective, and all those
Speaker 2: options were there. That's a big thing that you know,
Speaker 2: people need to look at. And I think a lot
Speaker 2: of it comes back to recruitment. I can remember the
Speaker 2: hoops had to jump through to get recruited to join
Speaker 2: the police and everything. But I put in the works
Speaker 2: one hundred percent committed that I want to be a
Speaker 2: police officer. I'm not sure what recruiting standards are like now.
Speaker 2: I know up here in Queens And we went down
Speaker 2: the stage of fifty to fifty male and female, and
Speaker 2: you know, hearing reports that you know, males who would
Speaker 2: have been a good police officer missing out because they
Speaker 2: weren't of the right sex. Now that's that's changed. Now
Speaker 2: we've gone down the stage of you know, you've got
Speaker 2: to have a university degree behind you to get into
Speaker 2: the police. Well, I don't think that worked that well either,
Speaker 2: you know, I think it's a recruitment has a big
Speaker 2: part of it, you know, getting the right people, getting
Speaker 2: the people that look, you don't have to be the
Speaker 2: sharpest tool and the shed to be a police officer.
Speaker 2: As long as your street wise and you've got a
Speaker 2: level of common sense and you can communicate. They are
Speaker 2: three critical things that I believe, you know, that can
Speaker 2: make you a good police officer. And then you learn
Speaker 2: as you go along.
Speaker 1: And there's there's obviously benefits to having the intelligence, but
Speaker 1: you put a team together and you could have the
Speaker 1: person that just had the communications skills in the street
Speaker 1: smart so you can have the IT expert that's fascinated
Speaker 1: by the computer system that the rest of us are going, Yeah,
Speaker 1: which button do we push type situation. You need that
Speaker 1: that cross section of people. I want to talk about
Speaker 1: the Fitzgerald and I raise that not sitting in judgment
Speaker 1: because we had the same thing down here and yeah,
Speaker 1: you look at any police organization, i'd suggest across the globe,
Speaker 1: and there's been pockets of pockets of corruption. I know
Speaker 1: with the Wood Royal Commission. I was a major crime
Speaker 1: detective at the time and it hit me hard. There
Speaker 1: was shame associated with what came out in the inquiry
Speaker 1: and the level of corruption I say, isolated pockets of
Speaker 1: corruption and it was exposed and removed needed to be done.
Speaker 1: No one's arguing against that, but I know at the
Speaker 1: time when it was happening, there was a lot of
Speaker 1: resentment from detectives in major crime because we're all being
Speaker 1: tired with the one brush you worked surveillance. As I
Speaker 1: understand in the Fitzgerald inquiry. That would have been a tough,
Speaker 1: tough gig for you, I would imagine, because it's working
Speaker 1: in your own organization and the type of things that
Speaker 1: you would have seen.
Speaker 2: And it was Garius I mentioned before. I think I
Speaker 2: had about four years five years service at that stage,
Speaker 2: and corruption and inappropriate relationships I'd never come across anywhere
Speaker 2: in my career. So it was a huge eye opener.
Speaker 2: That was back in the days where everyone had pages,
Speaker 2: you know, mobile phones with the size of a house
Speaker 2: and you had one of them. Batteries last about ten minutes,
Speaker 2: and you know those days there, we weren't allowed into
Speaker 2: the office where the investigators were, so we'd meet in
Speaker 2: the park and our sergeant and come and give us
Speaker 2: some a job what it was, and you look at
Speaker 2: it and you think, Holy Dearly, you know, it's just
Speaker 2: really happening. And it was a real big eye opener
Speaker 2: for me and I think some of the other people
Speaker 2: who had been around a little bit longer. For me,
Speaker 2: it was a little bit of a shock, But for
Speaker 2: me personally, it was an eye opener, not mainly I
Speaker 2: think looking at the way some of the organized criminal
Speaker 2: networks worked, how they infiltrated policing ranks and just the
Speaker 2: way they operated in their own environment was quite interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it flourished to a degree of society
Speaker 1: had changed, but there wasn't the accountability. I can't see
Speaker 1: that level of corruption occurring in this day and age.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, everyone's more accountable. But yeah, it
Speaker 1: must have been a tough gig. And after you work there,
Speaker 1: I know people that worked in those type of roles
Speaker 1: when they came back into the organization there was some
Speaker 1: I think wrong resentment of the people because of the
Speaker 1: role that they had done. But you know, any fair
Speaker 1: minded police officer has to say, well, you know, we
Speaker 1: don't stand for corruption. Did you find any of that
Speaker 1: coming back into coming back into the organization after working
Speaker 1: on the Fitzgerald Inquiry? And I just clarify just in
Speaker 1: case we're talking, we know what it was. Fitzgerald Inquiry
Speaker 1: was the inquiry into corruption within the Queensland Police.
Speaker 2: You know, Gary, I was very lucky I went from
Speaker 2: the Fitzgerald Inquiry to relieving officer in charge of the
Speaker 2: Valley Cob. The Valley c be here is a very
Speaker 2: much smaller scale of what you've got. The King's cross.
Speaker 2: You know he had the distreet.
Speaker 1: Yeah, done. I've done some work up there in the valley.
Speaker 2: I get the sense of it, and look, a lot
Speaker 2: of the main players in the Fitzgerald and Quarry, the
Speaker 2: organized criminals had businesses and enterprises set up around the valley.
Speaker 2: So I must admit I was a little bit nervous
Speaker 2: about coming back, But the team I had around me,
Speaker 2: I think I was accepted very well. I'm probably be
Speaker 2: naive to think they thought, oh, here's this dog coming
Speaker 2: from working on coppers and working on them, and now
Speaker 2: he's our boss. But I just treat every day as
Speaker 2: it comes. What you see is what you get with me.
Speaker 2: And I never had any issues, never had any threats,
Speaker 2: never had anything directly to my face. Probably a lot,
Speaker 2: you know what the police are like, behind your back,
Speaker 2: there'd be a lot going on. But no, I never
Speaker 2: had too many issues at all.
Speaker 1: In the work that you've done in policing, what was
Speaker 1: the area that was your favorite part. What did you
Speaker 1: enjoy most about being a detective and why you chose
Speaker 1: detective because there's some very worthwhile career paths in uniform.
Speaker 1: What was it about being a detective that was the
Speaker 1: thing that rocking.
Speaker 2: My big interest was it was taking a complaint further
Speaker 2: and actually looking into it, you know, trying to identify
Speaker 2: the offender, trying to get victims of crime their property
Speaker 2: back for breaking. But just just investigating is what really
Speaker 2: drew my passion. Like Uniform, you did a little bit
Speaker 2: of that, but largely, and I think even more near
Speaker 2: you're going from job to job the job so your
Speaker 2: time to do investigations was a little bit restricted, and
Speaker 2: I just love the investigation field once I got into it,
Speaker 2: you know, getting a getting a report from a break
Speaker 2: and having a look at it, you know, doing door knocks,
Speaker 2: doing the grunt work that sometimes uniform staff don't have
Speaker 2: time to do, and working out a pattern. Then getting
Speaker 2: a crook and talking to the crook and you know,
Speaker 2: getting their trust and getting them to off up to
Speaker 2: multiple breakdowns and going for driving the car to point
Speaker 2: out where they did them and getting property back. I
Speaker 2: think that was rewarding. But one big thing I learned
Speaker 2: from it is communication. Is you know, talking to people
Speaker 2: initially how you'd like to be spoken to, treating them
Speaker 2: as human as well, and then you know you're up
Speaker 2: the anti you're down the ante from there. But it's
Speaker 2: a good starting point. And I think you know a
Speaker 2: lot of the crooks.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: My wife and he said, the other day, we're talking
Speaker 2: to someone that we're out somewhere up the coast, and
Speaker 2: a fellow come up and spoke to me. She said,
Speaker 2: who's that? And I said, I arrested him back in
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety three. You know, so not every crook's going
Speaker 2: to do that to you, But I think if you
Speaker 2: treat them properly, you know, you can earn a level
Speaker 2: of respect. But the investigation side was I thought was fantastic.
Speaker 2: We used to do the early morning drug raids. He'd
Speaker 2: get information on place and that was a great team
Speaker 2: building exercise and it had the adrenaline going, you know,
Speaker 2: nothing like you know, kicking in a door of someone's
Speaker 2: house at seven in the morning and finding gear and
Speaker 2: you know, it's you know, that sort of thing. Was
Speaker 2: just it was just great. You know, I just thoroughly
Speaker 2: enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: The way you just describe that market. It's almost like,
Speaker 1: I know, on jobs like that, and I'm thinking, and
Speaker 1: we're getting paid for this, the level of excitement you'd
Speaker 1: pay money to actually have the experience of doing an
Speaker 1: early morning raid or investigating a particular type.
Speaker 2: Of crime, and you know a lot of it there
Speaker 2: is was like that, you know, and it was all legitimate,
Speaker 2: and you know, we had to conform with legislation and
Speaker 2: policies and procedures. But conforming and that didn't take the
Speaker 2: fun away from doing that sort of work exciting.
Speaker 1: How do you find court? Because that's I think court
Speaker 1: scares a lot of people away from potentially being detectives,
Speaker 1: because if you're going to put your hand up as
Speaker 1: a detective, you're going to spend a lot of time
Speaker 1: in the witness box under cross examination. Whether you've done
Speaker 1: everything right, it doesn't matter because these barrisss, defense barrisses
Speaker 1: or solicitors get paid a hell of a lot of
Speaker 1: money to make you look stupid in front of the
Speaker 1: magistrate or the jury. How did you find court experience
Speaker 1: and how did it develop over the years?
Speaker 2: I guess I was fortunate that giving court evidence pre Fitzgerald,
Speaker 2: when you're relying on record of interview type record of
Speaker 2: interviews or interviews in your notebook and getting attacked by
Speaker 2: illegal off barristers and that well, you know, you just
Speaker 2: wrote these notes. You just made this up. And even
Speaker 2: though their client had signed and adopted that this is
Speaker 2: a true record. And then going on there too after Fitzgerald,
Speaker 2: where interviews and everything were tape recorded. I think that
Speaker 2: took a lot of the angst away, but it still
Speaker 2: didn't take away why did you do this? Why did
Speaker 2: you do that? Why didn't you do this? You said
Speaker 2: this to my client, and I think you know, going
Speaker 2: in there is straight up front. You know, it either
Speaker 2: happened or it didn't, and that see what I tried
Speaker 2: to adopt. It's it can be harrowing. But on one
Speaker 2: thing I noticed now is you know, you look at
Speaker 2: people are getting detective appointments that haven't given evidence too
Speaker 2: much in a district or supreme court, and I think
Speaker 2: that's one thing that we're seeing is a bit of
Speaker 2: a deskilling that in that ability, which is quite important.
Speaker 2: It's yeah, I think you know, the tape recording of
Speaker 2: interviews has reduced a lot of the angst going to court,
Speaker 2: but not all.
Speaker 1: We had that down in New South Wales. I forget
Speaker 1: the years that came in euspinterviews and I was well
Speaker 1: entrenched in detectives at that stage and we all thought
Speaker 1: the world was going to going to end what you've
Speaker 1: got to get them on tape and it's not sit
Speaker 1: down interviews, and it was confronting, and I remember I
Speaker 1: put my hand up to go down there to learn it,
Speaker 1: to become a trainer in training it because I thought,
Speaker 1: that's the interview room is a skill that you need
Speaker 1: as a detective, and if that's the way that we're
Speaker 1: doing it, you've got to get your head around it. Yes,
Speaker 1: I do think it reduced a lot of time in court,
Speaker 1: and I think it's beneficial. No one would argue against it.
Speaker 1: It's a much better system to have in place. But
Speaker 1: you made the point there that people haven't got court experience.
Speaker 1: I was working in homicide and people would getting to
Speaker 1: the rank of pretty close to the detective sergeant, and
Speaker 1: you could count on one hand the time they've been
Speaker 1: in the witness box. And I almost felt sorry for them,
Speaker 1: because when it comes to the crunch on a big one,
Speaker 1: you're putting yourself in the homicide situation. You could find
Speaker 1: yourself in the witness box for a couple of days
Speaker 1: on complex matters, and I don't think they get the experience.
Speaker 1: I had a detective. I didn't like him at the
Speaker 1: time for what he did to me, but he set
Speaker 1: me up at the local court. He knew the defense
Speaker 1: solicitor and told me not to worry about preparing for
Speaker 1: this case. It was just to break an ender because
Speaker 1: it'll go easy. He'll probably end up pleading guilty. So
Speaker 1: I naively took his advice and didn't get my head
Speaker 1: round the brief. He normally would get it the witness
Speaker 1: box before I'd get in the witness box, but on
Speaker 1: this occasion he didn't get in the in the witness box,
Speaker 1: he said, no, you're going first. I got in there
Speaker 1: and just totally carved up. It came out. I think
Speaker 1: the tie was around the back of a suit and
Speaker 1: it was just a complete mess. And I'm thinking, my god.
Speaker 1: And he said how'd you go? Because he wasn't allowed
Speaker 1: in court and I said, I got ripped a part
Speaker 1: I should have prepared. And he said, have you learned anything?
Speaker 1: And I said, yeah, I've got to prepare for court.
Speaker 1: And then he introduced me to his mate, who was
Speaker 1: a defense solicitor. So that was but I never forget
Speaker 1: that lesson Mark, And it's something that you've got to
Speaker 1: prepare and you've got to be professional, and that's the
Speaker 1: sharp end of the work that you do as a detective,
Speaker 1: because it's all right having the fun investigating locking people up,
Speaker 1: but when it's all said and done, you want that
Speaker 1: conviction beside the beside the rest.
Speaker 2: And it's equated to it's like one of the toilet.
Speaker 2: If you don't use the paper, you're in the shit
Speaker 2: and you've got a place. A lot of emptis some
Speaker 2: paperwork and preparation. As you said, your paperwork going to court,
Speaker 2: your brief of evidence, your statements have to be spot
Speaker 2: on to close the gap for any cross examination for
Speaker 2: getting ripped apart. But preparation is critical and I think
Speaker 2: in major cases where getting your team together to make
Speaker 2: sure you're all all seeing from the same page, that
Speaker 2: everyone is on track with what did occur. And I
Speaker 2: think that's a critical part of it, particularly these days
Speaker 2: we have the high profile matters where you've got a
Speaker 2: team and you know, the big media locally, in a state, overseas.
Speaker 2: That's where it becomes absolutely critical that the team is
Speaker 2: on the game.
Speaker 1: And yeah, well and the further up and well, I
Speaker 1: think we can talk about this in Part two and
Speaker 1: Allison baden Clay matter. But the further up you get
Speaker 1: in the rank structure and running an investigation, you're very
Speaker 1: much reliant on the people below you to brief you
Speaker 1: because you might have thands of pieces of information. It
Speaker 1: was a detective inspector. If I was running the job,
Speaker 1: I can't get my head around all that information, so
Speaker 1: I have to rely on the people underneath me to
Speaker 1: pass that information on and make the decisions accordingly. So
Speaker 1: it very much is about attention to detail in investigations
Speaker 1: and managing the sheer volume of information that's correct.
Speaker 2: And I think as a detective inspector or detective superintendent,
Speaker 2: one of the roles is you know those Bade and
Speaker 2: Clay when I was a figure ahead in that role,
Speaker 2: media figurehead, largely to take the pressure away from the
Speaker 2: detective senior sergeant running it. But it was a great
Speaker 2: team underneath us. You know, we briefed in the morning,
Speaker 2: we briefed in the afternoon, and I think that is
Speaker 2: where it's absolutely critical. And I similar role as that
Speaker 2: as getting the information but also providing the team with
Speaker 2: the resources and everything they needed to allow them to
Speaker 2: do the job properly. And we'll talk about it later on.
Speaker 1: It's very much say it because I'd like to get
Speaker 1: your views as a superintendent involved in the bigger investigations
Speaker 1: and what that role is. But look, we might take
Speaker 1: a break here. We're also going to dive into domestic violence,
Speaker 1: which is something that nationally is very topical at the moment.
Speaker 1: But thanks for part one. Then when we get back
Speaker 1: into part two and we're going to carry the conversation
Speaker 1: further and delve deeper into your career and some of
Speaker 1: the investigations and your thoughts on policing. But having said that,
Speaker 1: you've left me with some thoughts about your management of
Speaker 1: youth crime, and I think, yeah, there needs to at
Speaker 1: least be discussion about some of the things that you're raising.
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, Arry, I think I think it's great. I
Speaker 2: think it's a topic in itself. And you know what,
Speaker 2: I think what I'd really love to see is policymakers.
Speaker 2: You know, you look at a lot of the policy
Speaker 2: makers in government departments, so young kids that have come
Speaker 2: straight out of YUNI, they've never seen an angry man.
Speaker 2: How many of them gone out in the road to
Speaker 2: see what's going on, to see what occurs, you know,
Speaker 2: to go on control. I think youth crime and the
Speaker 2: way it's going, I think that is an area where
Speaker 2: it needs to be a solid panel discussion with some
Speaker 2: of the policymakers, the politicians, and the police and judiciary
Speaker 2: that are dealing with it.
Speaker 1: All the people involved in it that understand because it's
Speaker 1: a complex problem and that's not one simple solution is
Speaker 1: going to fix it. That needs a multi layer approach.
Speaker 1: Really does on like DV exactly the same. Okay, well,
Speaker 1: we'll be back shortly for part to Thanks Garry.