WEBVTT - Cracking Mafia's tomato tin drug scheme: Mark Ainsworth Pt.1 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:04.960 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:07.880 Detective see a side of life the average person is 0:00:07.920 --> 0:00:11.160 never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:14.080 For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:16.279 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:20.600 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:23.200 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.480 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:28.840 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:31.520 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.680 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.720 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:40.559 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:49.240 Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Policing is 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:53.760 a robust occupation with a strong culture. In such organizations, 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:56.000 it takes a person of characters to stand up for 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:59.520 what they believe in, maintain their integrity, and speak up 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:03.280 when they need to. That's exactly what today's guest, retired 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:07.200 Superintendent Mark Ainsworth, was known for throughout his career. I 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:09.400 never got to work with Mark. He was a member 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:12.280 of the Queensland Police for thirty eight years and he 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:15.920 worked on a number of investigations, including the horrific murder 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:18.600 of Alison baden Clay, who is killed by a husband 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:22.479 in twenty twelve. From what I know about Mark, he's 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:25.080 the type of cop I respect. We'll be talking about 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:28.479 his stellar police career, getting his thoughts on fighting crime, 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:32.040 and will break down the investigation into the horrific murder 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:36.600 of Allison baden Clay. Mark Ainsworth, Welcome to I Catch Killers. 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:38.400 Thanks very much, Gary, nice to be here. 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:41.360 A well, we've had quite a few chats, but we're 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:43.760 talking just before we got on Mike about life outside 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:45.480 the police. How are you finding that? 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:48.760 Absolutely fantastic. I think I wish you would have done 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:51.960 it years ago. There's life after policing, and I think 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:54.880 the policing career puts people in a good stead to 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:56.280 look at life after policing. 0:01:56.640 --> 0:01:59.920 It's interesting you say that. I think when we're in 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:02.680 police we feel that we're pigeonholed and policing is all 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:04.639 that we can do. But the skill set you develop 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:09.960 throughout policing is so broad that it is readily transferable 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:12.440 outside the outside of the organization. 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:16.239 One hundred percent over our careers. You know, many many years, 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:18.799 you see a lot of things, you learn a lot 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:21.800 of things, and you become very diverse in your thinking 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:25.639 and capabilities and transferring that to outside of policing is 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:26.919 very very valuable. 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:30.480 Yeah, just where the conversation has taken this here. I 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:34.680 often thought with policing because across the country and I 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:39.400 think overseas as well, there's difficulty filling police forces for 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:42.840 applicants or people that want a career in policing. I 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:45.799 always thought during policing it would be good to be 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:49.000 able to step away from it, do something else, freshen up, 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:50.840 do something for a couple of years, and then come 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:54.920 back to policing. But we don't I'm speaking here on 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:57.680 New South Wales, we don't really have that career path 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:00.160 or those options. You can take leave without pay, but 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:02.240 it's quite difficult. What's your thoughts on that? 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:05.480 Look? I tend to agree with that, and Queensland Police 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:07.760 had the same when I was in that you could 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:10.040 take a career break for twelve months and go and 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:13.480 try something different then come back, or if you enjoyed 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:15.320 what you're doing in that career break, you could leave 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:19.160 the police and I think it's a great thing these days, 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:22.200 particularly in attracting and retaining police, where it gives them 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:24.320 an opportunity to freshen up. Go and see what it's 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:26.720 like in the real world, and if you don't like it, 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:28.480 come back to the police, and I think you come 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:31.000 back with a different mindset and a level of commitment 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:34.600 once you see what happens in other areas, or alternatively, 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:36.880 you think, well, this life outside of the police is 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:39.560 for me. And I think, as you just said, I 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:43.040 think with the attraction retention rate of police all across 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:46.240 the world, it's something that needs to be considered. And 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:48.600 you know, is twelve months long enough for a career break. 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:52.360 You know, the people that look for the career breaks 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:55.560 have generally got a wealth of experience under their belt, 0:03:55.800 --> 0:04:02.040 so you know, it's pretty scary seeing organizations losing people 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:05.080 that skill set after all the money invested in for 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:07.680 training and the experience they get. So I think, yeah, 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:08.960 I think there needs to be some options. 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:12.080 As you said, I know, I took twelve months leave 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:15.520 without pay, and in a long career, it did freshen 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:17.320 me up. I did some things. I was doing a 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:20.440 little bit of work during that break, By the time 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:22.720 that twelve months was up, I was itching to get 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:25.799 back into get back into policing. I was really looking 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:28.800 forward to it. Another thing I'd like to see with policing. 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:32.160 Then again we're going off track, but with your experience 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:36.000 in policing, I'd like to see our skill set as 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:38.320 a police officer. I'm a new South Wales Police officer. 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:43.120 You're Queensland Police officer nationally recognized, so we could transfer 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:47.680 at the equivalent rank to Queensland, Like it's a qualification 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:51.560 that you have, you're a certified police officer. Yeah, they'd 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:53.840 neither a fresher course, but not start at the bottom 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:58.320 because I because of relationships. At one point in time, 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:01.960 I was considering starting over in Perth, but I really 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:03.839 I would have had to start at the bottom and 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:05.760 work my way up again, even though I had twenty 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:09.480 twenty five years experience in policing. Do you think that's 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:13.480 another thing that could could help attract people and make 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:14.680 it a little bit more flexible. 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:16.919 Look, I think so, and I think all thoughts have 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:19.280 got to be on the table. As you said, your 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:21.920 skill set is a police officer. You don't lose particular 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:25.600 skills because I moved from Queensland to Victoria or New 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:27.960 South Wales. You know you've got to be across the 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:32.560 relative legislation in those areas, which police officers pick that 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:35.239 up very very quickly. But I think that's another option 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:37.640 that if you can transfer anywhere in Australia, that's a 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:40.680 great option for police to attract them and if they 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:43.120 want to move a family to another area, I think 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:44.919 that's a very very good option. I think it should 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:48.200 be on the table to consider. And I think it's 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:51.479 not only queen'sine on New South White Wales alone that 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:54.760 are struggling to attract police and retain them. And I 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:56.520 think if they all work together to come up with 0:05:56.520 --> 0:05:59.320 a strategy similar to this, it'd be quite easily achievable. 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:05.160 Yeah. No, I think it's a solution or possible solution. 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:09.120 Now I understand the type of police officer you were, 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:12.520 and we're going to talk in detail about your police career, 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:15.400 but you've also since you've left the police, you've offered 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:20.760 up some strong, strong thoughts on youth crime and thirty 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:22.880 eight years in the police force, I think you're entitled 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:28.680 to offer opinions. One was about holding parents or guardians 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:33.160 responsible for the behavior of their children. Legislating that again, 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:35.919 it's thinking outside the box. What were your thoughts behind 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:37.400 that when you raised it. I think it was on 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:40.360 a Current Affair interview or an article. 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:43.440 Gary, I've had a lot of thoughts about it and 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:45.359 being out of the police and just looking at what 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:47.919 was going on, particularly in our communities up here in 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:50.719 Queens and you're looking at Keynes towns for the Gold Coast, 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:54.080 but even my own local community where it was a 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:57.920 common denominator in conversations, people fearing what's going to happen 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:00.240 to themselves or the houses or the youth crime I'm 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:03.840 running around out of control. Years ago as a young 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:09.200 uniform officer, this issue was discussed in the around the 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:13.320 Children's Services Department and Juvenile Aid bureaus at the time 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:16.800 about you know, holding parents accountable for restitution, you know, 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:18.960 if someone breaks into a house or damage or something, 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:22.400 holding the parents accountable and it never moved, it never 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:27.400 proceeded from there. Now my thoughts on the accountability of 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:31.960 parents and guardians, it comes back to a common sense 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:34.680 approach in my view, and maybe people might think it's 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:39.680 out of the box, but where does a parent know 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:41.480 where the kid is at three o'clock in the morning, 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:44.960 should that parent know where they are? I'm talking twelve, thirteen, 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:48.760 fourteen year old kids. You know you've got to have licenses, 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:50.920 you know, to look after certain animals, and you know 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:54.560 you're responsible for their well being and you're held accountable. 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:58.560 What's the difference between holding a parent or a guardian 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:02.160 accountable for the behavior or whereabouts their kids at that 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:05.480 hour of the morning or even regardless of that that morning, 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:08.560 you know, where is their accountability in relation to their 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:12.560 criminal activities? And look, I'm not saying this relates to 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:15.720 all parents and guardians. I understand that some parents and 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:18.920 guardians are at their wits end trying to control their 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:23.880 kids and conform with laws and what's expected in the community. 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:26.720 But it's one suggestion I think governments need to look at. 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:31.520 I think there's some merit there. As radical as that 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:33.720 might sound and sort of fly in the face of 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:38.840 what we understand with the justice system. But as police officers, 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:41.079 we've seen the situations, haven't we. You pick a kid 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:43.439 up at twelve or thirteen year old that's out on 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:46.320 the streets at two am, and yeah, they say it 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:48.880 for adults, no good comes after midnight if you're out 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:51.520 on the street, well, it's pretty much guaranteed that if 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:54.120 you're a young kid and you're wandering the streets at 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:56.000 that time of the night, you're going to get up 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:59.240 to mischief. And then you take the child home and 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:02.800 you realize that there's no supervision, and it's not blaming 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:06.120 the child, but maybe have people take responsibility for the 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:08.959 children that they're raising. So I'm sure there'll be a 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:11.559 lot of pushback for it, but again, we've got to 0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:12.800 look at solutions, haven't we. 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:15.160 One hundred percent? And I was quite critical there about 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:19.760 you know, the government up here is wanting to increase penalties, 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:23.520 legislate for harsher penalties. But you know, in all reality, 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:27.280 how often does a juvenile or for that matter, an 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:31.640 adult receive the maximum penalty or a stiffer penalty. So 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:34.680 if you want to increase a penalty for I don't know, 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:38.400 for assault to fourteen sixteen years, is that a deterrent 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:40.720 for the kid at the time, And I'd argue it's not. 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:43.520 And I think in my view, it's just an easy 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:46.120 way out for the government to say we're tightening things up, 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:49.200 we're increasing our penalties where you're not looking at the 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:51.599 core issues that are going on. You've only got to 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:54.520 look and you'd know first hand the receivitism rate of 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:57.480 these offenders that are getting charged by the police. Please 0:09:57.559 --> 0:09:59.559 doing a good job. Put them before the court they 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:03.559 get or if they get sentenced to a child facility, 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:07.000 they're meeting with like minded kids and they come out 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:11.600 in most times and reoffend. A part of my suggestion 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:14.000 there was and look, I equate this back to the 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:18.120 baby bonus that was introduced by the Labor government back 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:21.400 in around the time of the global financial crisis, where 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:25.319 five thousand dollars was given to women that had kids 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:29.079 as a baby bonners. My wife has got friends that 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:31.880 works in child safety and an area up here north 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:35.600 of Brisbane had something like a thirty percent increase on 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:39.480 children being and dropped on the doorsteps of child safety 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:43.600 by particularly young females who got the five thousand dollars 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:47.319 baby bonners ran out, bought TVs, put drugs up their 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:50.440 arms and here's society trying to look after those kids. 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:53.360 So I equate back to there, and you look at 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:55.559 you know, the age group of kids that are offending 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:57.840 up here now or are offending. You've got that twelve 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:01.679 to fourteen age group which is very predominant, and that 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:04.160 puts a lot of them into that category. I'm not 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:07.920 saying all, but a lot. I think that the idea 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:09.720 there needs to be some thinking out of the box 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:14.680 in relation to custodial sentences. Now, what I suggested previously 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:17.240 was considering, and the media ran with it as a 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:21.400 boot camp. It wasn't. The terminology of boot camp wasn't 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:25.480 what I really meant. It was a diversion system. And 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:28.440 this system's nothing new. It's worked. I know there's a 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:31.000 group of businessmen that set up a similar sort of 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:35.959 setup in the Kakadou area where a lot of indigenous 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:38.960 people of alcohol problems. So they set it up as 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:42.320 a diversionary system to get these people to come into 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:45.280 that area and learn farming skills, break the cycle of 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:50.600 drinking alcohol, becoming drunk, offending. And the actual program they've 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:54.000 got has been an outseeing success. And this is run 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:58.320 by individuals who have the wealth to set up a program. Now, sorry, 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:01.280 it's in the I could do. I think it might 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:04.000 be up in the Kimberley's there. But what they've done 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:07.960 is they've developed a skill set for people coming into 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:10.760 that area, they learn farming schools, they learn training skills. 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:13.760 They've got a psychologist that comes up and talks to 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:16.439 the people on their arrival and during their stay there. 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:19.680 But they've also linked up with university in New South 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:24.400 Wales to allow some leadership and education and the whole 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:27.800 program is working very well now. Equating that back to 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:30.839 a juvenile type problem, I'm talking in what I did 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:34.880 mention was in remote or rural areas where the kids 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:38.040 can be diverted from the court system to an area 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:41.720 where they can get an education, learn some farming schools, 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:45.520 learn a trade, but more importantly getting them away from 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:49.760 social media, so no farns, no computers, and just learning 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:52.120 life skills that we probably learn as kids growing up 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:55.280 without the computers. And the other part of that is 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:57.960 is the kids that would like the opportunity to do that. 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:01.439 And I don't think we should discriminate between the offenders, 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:03.440 but at the kids that would love the opportunity to 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:05.840 do that should be given the opportunity as well. And 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:08.160 as I mentioned earlier on, you might have parents that 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:11.520 are just at wits end about trying to deal with 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:13.760 their kids. They're the sort of people that you know, 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:16.719 their child gets an opportunity to go there, they learn 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:19.120 the proper skill set, they get an education, they learn 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:22.520 about respect behavior, and it's something that I think we 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:25.320 need to try because what's working now, what's not working 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:28.040 now is the system that's been around for many, many years. 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:32.280 Well, Mark what you just said, and I didn't interrupt 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:35.040 you because I'm fascinated by your take on it. And 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:38.800 if people dissect little parts of that, they'll go, oh yeah, 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:42.080 ex scop talking tough them, send them to a camp. 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:45.560 But the way that you explained it and articulated it 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:49.559 really breaks it down. And I personally, not just from 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:53.760 my experience in police life, just life itself, what you're 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:58.880 suggesting there is sounds like a worthwhile thing to pursue. 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:01.640 And I balance that's it out because people that might 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:05.120 hear you talk or hear two X cops talking crack 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:08.600 down on crime. I'm really glad that you talk about 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:12.280 You don't think you just need to strengthen the legislation 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:14.840 all the time, because I never saw that working in 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:17.400 policing the whole time I was in police. And you know, Okay, 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:20.000 we're going to increase stealing a car from seven years 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:24.440 to fourteen years. That's not what the offenders, specially kids, 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:27.960 are thinking about when they're committing the crime. And the 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:31.480 way you describe that is you're breaking a cycle, really, 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:35.800 aren't you. You talk about recidivism. You're trying something different, 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:39.440 pull them from that environment and steer them and point 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:40.400 them in the right direction. 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:43.120 One hundred percent. And as I said, it's nothing new. 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:46.200 It happens overseas the example I gave there with the 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:50.160 First Nations people, it does work. And I think the 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:53.480 money we're spending on building new child attention centers and 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:56.280 that the money diverted to an area like that. Even 0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:59.680 for trial, we have a politician up in the Far 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:02.720 Nor Queens and Robie Catter who's supportive of it, and 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:07.480 I think even for trial, it's worthwhile going through that effort. 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:11.040 And you know, it'd be interesting to see the success 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:12.760 rate of it as well. And I'm not saying it's 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:15.080 going to be one hundred percent successful. Nothing is. But 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:18.240 it's trying something different to try and break the cycle 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:19.680 of a life of criminality. 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:23.080 Yeah, well, anything you try is not going to be 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:25.920 one hundred percent success, but if you can help one 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:29.800 person's life, I think the fact that someone like yourself, 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:32.360 with your experience, is talking about that. I hope people 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:36.360 listen and on the issue of politics, and you rose 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:39.840 to the rank of superintendent, so you understand politics, not 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:43.800 just within the police, but politics in itself. Quite often 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:47.400 in state elections it becomes a they said, well we're 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:50.200 going to take the polar opposite. You need to bipartisan approach, 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:53.280 don't you to find the problem that's affecting everyone. 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:56.640 One hundred percent? And I think from when I first started, 0:15:56.640 --> 0:15:58.680 and when you know, when you first start and the police, 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:00.520 you know, you're not aware of all the politics and 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:03.440 the political games that are played. But as you grow 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:07.240 through the ranks and your service expands and you see 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:09.960 what happens. I think there needs to be a separation 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:13.880 of powers from the police commissioner and the policing minister 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:17.560 or government up here. And my views on this, I'm 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:19.280 sure a lot of people will smack them down. But 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:22.720 you've only got to look at the COVID situation which happened, 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:25.880 and I'm pretty sure it happened in other jurisdictions. Police 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:29.920 became babysitters at motels. Now cost the community a hell 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:33.280 of a lot of money. Now, why do the police 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:36.080 have to get dragged into doing that when you could 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:39.200 have security guards, you could have other people there performing 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:42.320 that role. If someone doesn't conform with requirements, you call 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:45.320 the police to deal with that person. I think from 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:49.080 what I'm seeing is the police, particularly up here in Queensland, 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:53.960 are used as a stopgap measure for other duties which 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:58.960 are not necessarily policing duties. The police everywhere operate twenty 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:02.200 four to seven. Government departments shut their doors at five 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:05.600 o'clock and everything after that becomes a policing problem, which, 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:08.000 in my view, in a lot of instances, takes police 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:11.440 away from doing what their core role is. You look 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:14.000 at COVID, you look at the number of number of 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:17.960 hours and the amount of money spent on overtime. Having 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:21.359 police sitting outside buildings babysitting that to me was an 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:24.879 absolutely ridiculous scenario when there's plenty of other work that 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:29.040 the police could be doing which is relevant to their roles. 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:32.160 Well, if you're worried about people smacking you down, I'm 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:34.040 not going to smack you down about that one because 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:37.439 I agree wholeheartedly and I think there needs to be 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:41.399 the separation of powers between the police the politicians. And 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:44.119 the courts. I think all those areas need their own 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:48.280 autonomy and sometimes lines get blurred and that you made 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:51.159 a point there. I hadn't even thought along those lines 0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:54.320 that who are you going to call the police? There're 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:56.280 twenty four to seven, you know, if there's a problem, 0:17:56.359 --> 0:17:58.879 and then we delve into mental health issues. And I 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:02.679 know in New Southway, Queensland, across the country, police are 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:05.720 getting frustrated that they feel like they've been brought into 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:10.640 these mental health situations where that's not ideally their role. 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:12.480 That's the way police get used up. 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:16.040 And you're right, Look, policing has changed over the years. 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:18.720 You know, you look at the three big factors affecting 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:22.200 police at the moment. Domestic violence number one issue across Australia, 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:24.960 mental health, as you said up here in Queensland, the 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:28.879 number of police shootings we've had recently involving patients with 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:31.919 mental health that are threatening police, threatening other people and 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:34.919 the police are forced to act. And youth crime, you know, 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:39.400 youth crime or crime is core business of police. Police 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:42.320 go there to keep the peace. Domestic violence, they go 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:44.639 there to keep the peace, but it's a whole of 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:47.640 community problem. Mental health is a whole of community problem. 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:51.840 But far too often a police held accountable for what 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:54.960 they've done dealing at a domestic violence issue, or what they 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:59.200 haven't done dealing with mental health people. And I think 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:01.920 you know, a lot of the police are unfairly targeted. 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:06.000 And look, I'm first to admit a lot of police, 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:08.520 and I'm not going to say high percentage of small 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:12.520 percentage of police. We'll do the probably not follow through 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:14.399 things and do things properly, but you get that in 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:17.320 every occupation. What I am saying is that I think 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:19.959 there needs to be a reset of the responsibilities and 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:22.439 requirements of police in each jurisdiction. 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:25.919 It all makes sense and we could talk on all 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:29.080 those subjects for the full podcast, but let's talk about 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:32.400 yourself for a bit. Your career. Why did you join 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:34.600 the police? Were you were you born into the job? 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:36.760 Was it something you always aspired to or did you 0:19:36.920 --> 0:19:37.560 trip into it? 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:40.960 No? I sort of tripped into it. I've got no 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:43.560 family members at all in the police. Were never had 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:47.960 been an uncle through marriage. He was in the fingerprint 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:51.400 section up here in Brisbane and he started talking about 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:53.239 the police one day and I was fortunate enough that 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:55.360 he had approval to take me out on a weekend 0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:58.160 when I was in year eleven at school and saw 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:01.080 what he did and got really excited and interested, and 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:03.520 that changed my mind about wanting to join the police. 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:08.080 So year twelve, I was going through Kedrin High School, 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:11.359 did the application to apply to get into the police, 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:14.040 and then January the following year, I started at the 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:17.080 Police Academy as a seventeen year old and that was 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:17.639 my life. 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:20.960 I laughed, because you're come in, and especially as a 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:22.760 seven eeen year old. I joined a little bit later, 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:24.480 but as a seven eeen year old you would have 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:27.040 no idea about the world you were about to step into. 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:29.840 One hundred percent Gary and back in those days here 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:31.960 I did an eighteen month training and cadeticia. It was 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:34.640 eighteen months, so I had all these fellows the same age. 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:38.120 You weren't allowed to get sworn in until you're nineteen 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:40.840 years of age, and unfortunately for me, I was not 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:43.920 nineteen when I finished my training, so I was used 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:47.120 as a bit of a gopher. But in saying that 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:49.879 learned a lot of things. I helped a prosecute to 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:52.480 carry his bags and sit in court and learned a 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:54.800 hell of a lot. And you know that was great, 0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:57.960 But I can still remember my very first night out 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:00.959 and my very first arrest was for the big offense 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:04.520 of drunk in a public place. I went home that 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:06.640 night and I shitting myself if I'd done everything right. 0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:08.399