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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Policing is

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Speaker 1: a robust occupation with a strong culture. In such organizations,

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Speaker 1: it takes a person of characters to stand up for

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Speaker 1: what they believe in, maintain their integrity, and speak up

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Speaker 1: when they need to. That's exactly what today's guest, retired

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Speaker 1: Superintendent Mark Ainsworth, was known for throughout his career. I

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Speaker 1: never got to work with Mark. He was a member

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Speaker 1: of the Queensland Police for thirty eight years and he

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Speaker 1: worked on a number of investigations, including the horrific murder

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Speaker 1: of Alison baden Clay, who is killed by a husband

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Speaker 1: in twenty twelve. From what I know about Mark, he's

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Speaker 1: the type of cop I respect. We'll be talking about

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Speaker 1: his stellar police career, getting his thoughts on fighting crime,

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Speaker 1: and will break down the investigation into the horrific murder

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Speaker 1: of Allison baden Clay. Mark Ainsworth, Welcome to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thanks very much, Gary, nice to be here.

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Speaker 1: A well, we've had quite a few chats, but we're

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Speaker 1: talking just before we got on Mike about life outside

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Speaker 1: the police. How are you finding that?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely fantastic. I think I wish you would have done

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Speaker 2: it years ago. There's life after policing, and I think

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Speaker 2: the policing career puts people in a good stead to

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Speaker 2: look at life after policing.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting you say that. I think when we're in

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Speaker 1: police we feel that we're pigeonholed and policing is all

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Speaker 1: that we can do. But the skill set you develop

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Speaker 1: throughout policing is so broad that it is readily transferable

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Speaker 1: outside the outside of the organization.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent over our careers. You know, many many years,

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Speaker 2: you see a lot of things, you learn a lot

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Speaker 2: of things, and you become very diverse in your thinking

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Speaker 2: and capabilities and transferring that to outside of policing is

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Speaker 2: very very valuable.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, just where the conversation has taken this here. I

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Speaker 1: often thought with policing because across the country and I

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Speaker 1: think overseas as well, there's difficulty filling police forces for

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Speaker 1: applicants or people that want a career in policing. I

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Speaker 1: always thought during policing it would be good to be

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Speaker 1: able to step away from it, do something else, freshen up,

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Speaker 1: do something for a couple of years, and then come

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Speaker 1: back to policing. But we don't I'm speaking here on

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Speaker 1: New South Wales, we don't really have that career path

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Speaker 1: or those options. You can take leave without pay, but

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Speaker 1: it's quite difficult. What's your thoughts on that?

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Speaker 2: Look? I tend to agree with that, and Queensland Police

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Speaker 2: had the same when I was in that you could

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Speaker 2: take a career break for twelve months and go and

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Speaker 2: try something different then come back, or if you enjoyed

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Speaker 2: what you're doing in that career break, you could leave

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Speaker 2: the police and I think it's a great thing these days,

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Speaker 2: particularly in attracting and retaining police, where it gives them

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Speaker 2: an opportunity to freshen up. Go and see what it's

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Speaker 2: like in the real world, and if you don't like it,

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Speaker 2: come back to the police, and I think you come

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Speaker 2: back with a different mindset and a level of commitment

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Speaker 2: once you see what happens in other areas, or alternatively,

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Speaker 2: you think, well, this life outside of the police is

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Speaker 2: for me. And I think, as you just said, I

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Speaker 2: think with the attraction retention rate of police all across

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Speaker 2: the world, it's something that needs to be considered. And

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Speaker 2: you know, is twelve months long enough for a career break.

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Speaker 2: You know, the people that look for the career breaks

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Speaker 2: have generally got a wealth of experience under their belt,

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Speaker 2: so you know, it's pretty scary seeing organizations losing people

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Speaker 2: that skill set after all the money invested in for

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Speaker 2: training and the experience they get. So I think, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I think there needs to be some options.

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Speaker 1: As you said, I know, I took twelve months leave

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Speaker 1: without pay, and in a long career, it did freshen

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Speaker 1: me up. I did some things. I was doing a

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Speaker 1: little bit of work during that break, By the time

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Speaker 1: that twelve months was up, I was itching to get

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Speaker 1: back into get back into policing. I was really looking

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Speaker 1: forward to it. Another thing I'd like to see with policing.

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Speaker 1: Then again we're going off track, but with your experience

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Speaker 1: in policing, I'd like to see our skill set as

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Speaker 1: a police officer. I'm a new South Wales Police officer.

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Speaker 1: You're Queensland Police officer nationally recognized, so we could transfer

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Speaker 1: at the equivalent rank to Queensland, Like it's a qualification

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Speaker 1: that you have, you're a certified police officer. Yeah, they'd

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Speaker 1: neither a fresher course, but not start at the bottom

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Speaker 1: because I because of relationships. At one point in time,

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Speaker 1: I was considering starting over in Perth, but I really

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Speaker 1: I would have had to start at the bottom and

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Speaker 1: work my way up again, even though I had twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five years experience in policing. Do you think that's

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Speaker 1: another thing that could could help attract people and make

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Speaker 1: it a little bit more flexible.

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Speaker 2: Look, I think so, and I think all thoughts have

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Speaker 2: got to be on the table. As you said, your

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Speaker 2: skill set is a police officer. You don't lose particular

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Speaker 2: skills because I moved from Queensland to Victoria or New

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Speaker 2: South Wales. You know you've got to be across the

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Speaker 2: relative legislation in those areas, which police officers pick that

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Speaker 2: up very very quickly. But I think that's another option

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Speaker 2: that if you can transfer anywhere in Australia, that's a

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Speaker 2: great option for police to attract them and if they

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Speaker 2: want to move a family to another area, I think

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Speaker 2: that's a very very good option. I think it should

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Speaker 2: be on the table to consider. And I think it's

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Speaker 2: not only queen'sine on New South White Wales alone that

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Speaker 2: are struggling to attract police and retain them. And I

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Speaker 2: think if they all work together to come up with

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Speaker 2: a strategy similar to this, it'd be quite easily achievable.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I think it's a solution or possible solution.

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Speaker 1: Now I understand the type of police officer you were,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to talk in detail about your police career,

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Speaker 1: but you've also since you've left the police, you've offered

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Speaker 1: up some strong, strong thoughts on youth crime and thirty

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Speaker 1: eight years in the police force, I think you're entitled

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Speaker 1: to offer opinions. One was about holding parents or guardians

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Speaker 1: responsible for the behavior of their children. Legislating that again,

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Speaker 1: it's thinking outside the box. What were your thoughts behind

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Speaker 1: that when you raised it. I think it was on

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Speaker 1: a Current Affair interview or an article.

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Speaker 2: Gary, I've had a lot of thoughts about it and

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Speaker 2: being out of the police and just looking at what

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Speaker 2: was going on, particularly in our communities up here in

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Speaker 2: Queens and you're looking at Keynes towns for the Gold Coast,

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Speaker 2: but even my own local community where it was a

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Speaker 2: common denominator in conversations, people fearing what's going to happen

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Speaker 2: to themselves or the houses or the youth crime I'm

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Speaker 2: running around out of control. Years ago as a young

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Speaker 2: uniform officer, this issue was discussed in the around the

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Speaker 2: Children's Services Department and Juvenile Aid bureaus at the time

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Speaker 2: about you know, holding parents accountable for restitution, you know,

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Speaker 2: if someone breaks into a house or damage or something,

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Speaker 2: holding the parents accountable and it never moved, it never

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Speaker 2: proceeded from there. Now my thoughts on the accountability of

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Speaker 2: parents and guardians, it comes back to a common sense

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Speaker 2: approach in my view, and maybe people might think it's

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Speaker 2: out of the box, but where does a parent know

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Speaker 2: where the kid is at three o'clock in the morning,

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Speaker 2: should that parent know where they are? I'm talking twelve, thirteen,

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Speaker 2: fourteen year old kids. You know you've got to have licenses,

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Speaker 2: you know, to look after certain animals, and you know

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Speaker 2: you're responsible for their well being and you're held accountable.

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Speaker 2: What's the difference between holding a parent or a guardian

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Speaker 2: accountable for the behavior or whereabouts their kids at that

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Speaker 2: hour of the morning or even regardless of that that morning,

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Speaker 2: you know, where is their accountability in relation to their

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Speaker 2: criminal activities? And look, I'm not saying this relates to

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Speaker 2: all parents and guardians. I understand that some parents and

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Speaker 2: guardians are at their wits end trying to control their

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Speaker 2: kids and conform with laws and what's expected in the community.

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Speaker 2: But it's one suggestion I think governments need to look at.

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Speaker 1: I think there's some merit there. As radical as that

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Speaker 1: might sound and sort of fly in the face of

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Speaker 1: what we understand with the justice system. But as police officers,

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Speaker 1: we've seen the situations, haven't we. You pick a kid

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Speaker 1: up at twelve or thirteen year old that's out on

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Speaker 1: the streets at two am, and yeah, they say it

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Speaker 1: for adults, no good comes after midnight if you're out

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Speaker 1: on the street, well, it's pretty much guaranteed that if

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Speaker 1: you're a young kid and you're wandering the streets at

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Speaker 1: that time of the night, you're going to get up

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Speaker 1: to mischief. And then you take the child home and

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Speaker 1: you realize that there's no supervision, and it's not blaming

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Speaker 1: the child, but maybe have people take responsibility for the

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Speaker 1: children that they're raising. So I'm sure there'll be a

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Speaker 1: lot of pushback for it, but again, we've got to

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Speaker 1: look at solutions, haven't we.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent? And I was quite critical there about

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Speaker 2: you know, the government up here is wanting to increase penalties,

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Speaker 2: legislate for harsher penalties. But you know, in all reality,

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Speaker 2: how often does a juvenile or for that matter, an

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Speaker 2: adult receive the maximum penalty or a stiffer penalty. So

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Speaker 2: if you want to increase a penalty for I don't know,

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Speaker 2: for assault to fourteen sixteen years, is that a deterrent

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Speaker 2: for the kid at the time, And I'd argue it's not.

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Speaker 2: And I think in my view, it's just an easy

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Speaker 2: way out for the government to say we're tightening things up,

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Speaker 2: we're increasing our penalties where you're not looking at the

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Speaker 2: core issues that are going on. You've only got to

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Speaker 2: look and you'd know first hand the receivitism rate of

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Speaker 2: these offenders that are getting charged by the police. Please

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Speaker 2: doing a good job. Put them before the court they

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Speaker 2: get or if they get sentenced to a child facility,

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Speaker 2: they're meeting with like minded kids and they come out

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Speaker 2: in most times and reoffend. A part of my suggestion

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Speaker 2: there was and look, I equate this back to the

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Speaker 2: baby bonus that was introduced by the Labor government back

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Speaker 2: in around the time of the global financial crisis, where

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Speaker 2: five thousand dollars was given to women that had kids

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Speaker 2: as a baby bonners. My wife has got friends that

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Speaker 2: works in child safety and an area up here north

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Speaker 2: of Brisbane had something like a thirty percent increase on

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Speaker 2: children being and dropped on the doorsteps of child safety

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Speaker 2: by particularly young females who got the five thousand dollars

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Speaker 2: baby bonners ran out, bought TVs, put drugs up their

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Speaker 2: arms and here's society trying to look after those kids.

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Speaker 2: So I equate back to there, and you look at

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Speaker 2: you know, the age group of kids that are offending

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Speaker 2: up here now or are offending. You've got that twelve

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Speaker 2: to fourteen age group which is very predominant, and that

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Speaker 2: puts a lot of them into that category. I'm not

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Speaker 2: saying all, but a lot. I think that the idea

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Speaker 2: there needs to be some thinking out of the box

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Speaker 2: in relation to custodial sentences. Now, what I suggested previously

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Speaker 2: was considering, and the media ran with it as a

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Speaker 2: boot camp. It wasn't. The terminology of boot camp wasn't

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Speaker 2: what I really meant. It was a diversion system. And

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Speaker 2: this system's nothing new. It's worked. I know there's a

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Speaker 2: group of businessmen that set up a similar sort of

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Speaker 2: setup in the Kakadou area where a lot of indigenous

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Speaker 2: people of alcohol problems. So they set it up as

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Speaker 2: a diversionary system to get these people to come into

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Speaker 2: that area and learn farming skills, break the cycle of

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Speaker 2: drinking alcohol, becoming drunk, offending. And the actual program they've

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Speaker 2: got has been an outseeing success. And this is run

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Speaker 2: by individuals who have the wealth to set up a program. Now, sorry,

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Speaker 2: it's in the I could do. I think it might

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Speaker 2: be up in the Kimberley's there. But what they've done

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Speaker 2: is they've developed a skill set for people coming into

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Speaker 2: that area, they learn farming schools, they learn training skills.

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Speaker 2: They've got a psychologist that comes up and talks to

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Speaker 2: the people on their arrival and during their stay there.

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Speaker 2: But they've also linked up with university in New South

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Speaker 2: Wales to allow some leadership and education and the whole

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Speaker 2: program is working very well now. Equating that back to

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Speaker 2: a juvenile type problem, I'm talking in what I did

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Speaker 2: mention was in remote or rural areas where the kids

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Speaker 2: can be diverted from the court system to an area

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Speaker 2: where they can get an education, learn some farming schools,

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Speaker 2: learn a trade, but more importantly getting them away from

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Speaker 2: social media, so no farns, no computers, and just learning

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Speaker 2: life skills that we probably learn as kids growing up

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Speaker 2: without the computers. And the other part of that is

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Speaker 2: is the kids that would like the opportunity to do that.

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Speaker 2: And I don't think we should discriminate between the offenders,

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Speaker 2: but at the kids that would love the opportunity to

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Speaker 2: do that should be given the opportunity as well. And

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Speaker 2: as I mentioned earlier on, you might have parents that

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Speaker 2: are just at wits end about trying to deal with

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Speaker 2: their kids. They're the sort of people that you know,

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Speaker 2: their child gets an opportunity to go there, they learn

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Speaker 2: the proper skill set, they get an education, they learn

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Speaker 2: about respect behavior, and it's something that I think we

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Speaker 2: need to try because what's working now, what's not working

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Speaker 2: now is the system that's been around for many, many years.

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Speaker 1: Well, Mark what you just said, and I didn't interrupt

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Speaker 1: you because I'm fascinated by your take on it. And

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Speaker 1: if people dissect little parts of that, they'll go, oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: ex scop talking tough them, send them to a camp.

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Speaker 1: But the way that you explained it and articulated it

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Speaker 1: really breaks it down. And I personally, not just from

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Speaker 1: my experience in police life, just life itself, what you're

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Speaker 1: suggesting there is sounds like a worthwhile thing to pursue.

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Speaker 1: And I balance that's it out because people that might

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Speaker 1: hear you talk or hear two X cops talking crack

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Speaker 1: down on crime. I'm really glad that you talk about

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Speaker 1: You don't think you just need to strengthen the legislation

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Speaker 1: all the time, because I never saw that working in

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Speaker 1: policing the whole time I was in police. And you know, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we're going to increase stealing a car from seven years

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Speaker 1: to fourteen years. That's not what the offenders, specially kids,

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Speaker 1: are thinking about when they're committing the crime. And the

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Speaker 1: way you describe that is you're breaking a cycle, really,

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Speaker 1: aren't you. You talk about recidivism. You're trying something different,

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Speaker 1: pull them from that environment and steer them and point

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Speaker 1: them in the right direction.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent. And as I said, it's nothing new.

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Speaker 2: It happens overseas the example I gave there with the

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Speaker 2: First Nations people, it does work. And I think the

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Speaker 2: money we're spending on building new child attention centers and

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Speaker 2: that the money diverted to an area like that. Even

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Speaker 2: for trial, we have a politician up in the Far

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Speaker 2: Nor Queens and Robie Catter who's supportive of it, and

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Speaker 2: I think even for trial, it's worthwhile going through that effort.

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Speaker 2: And you know, it'd be interesting to see the success

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Speaker 2: rate of it as well. And I'm not saying it's

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Speaker 2: going to be one hundred percent successful. Nothing is. But

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Speaker 2: it's trying something different to try and break the cycle

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Speaker 2: of a life of criminality.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, anything you try is not going to be

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Speaker 1: one hundred percent success, but if you can help one

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Speaker 1: person's life, I think the fact that someone like yourself,

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Speaker 1: with your experience, is talking about that. I hope people

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Speaker 1: listen and on the issue of politics, and you rose

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Speaker 1: to the rank of superintendent, so you understand politics, not

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Speaker 1: just within the police, but politics in itself. Quite often

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Speaker 1: in state elections it becomes a they said, well we're

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Speaker 1: going to take the polar opposite. You need to bipartisan approach,

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Speaker 1: don't you to find the problem that's affecting everyone.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent? And I think from when I first started,

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Speaker 2: and when you know, when you first start and the police,

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Speaker 2: you know, you're not aware of all the politics and

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Speaker 2: the political games that are played. But as you grow

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Speaker 2: through the ranks and your service expands and you see

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Speaker 2: what happens. I think there needs to be a separation

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Speaker 2: of powers from the police commissioner and the policing minister

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Speaker 2: or government up here. And my views on this, I'm

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Speaker 2: sure a lot of people will smack them down. But

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Speaker 2: you've only got to look at the COVID situation which happened,

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Speaker 2: and I'm pretty sure it happened in other jurisdictions. Police

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Speaker 2: became babysitters at motels. Now cost the community a hell

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Speaker 2: of a lot of money. Now, why do the police

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Speaker 2: have to get dragged into doing that when you could

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Speaker 2: have security guards, you could have other people there performing

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Speaker 2: that role. If someone doesn't conform with requirements, you call

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Speaker 2: the police to deal with that person. I think from

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Speaker 2: what I'm seeing is the police, particularly up here in Queensland,

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Speaker 2: are used as a stopgap measure for other duties which

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Speaker 2: are not necessarily policing duties. The police everywhere operate twenty

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Speaker 2: four to seven. Government departments shut their doors at five

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Speaker 2: o'clock and everything after that becomes a policing problem, which,

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Speaker 2: in my view, in a lot of instances, takes police

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Speaker 2: away from doing what their core role is. You look

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Speaker 2: at COVID, you look at the number of number of

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Speaker 2: hours and the amount of money spent on overtime. Having

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Speaker 2: police sitting outside buildings babysitting that to me was an

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Speaker 2: absolutely ridiculous scenario when there's plenty of other work that

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Speaker 2: the police could be doing which is relevant to their roles.

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Speaker 1: Well, if you're worried about people smacking you down, I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to smack you down about that one because

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Speaker 1: I agree wholeheartedly and I think there needs to be

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Speaker 1: the separation of powers between the police the politicians. And

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Speaker 1: the courts. I think all those areas need their own

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Speaker 1: autonomy and sometimes lines get blurred and that you made

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Speaker 1: a point there. I hadn't even thought along those lines

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Speaker 1: that who are you going to call the police? There're

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Speaker 1: twenty four to seven, you know, if there's a problem,

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Speaker 1: and then we delve into mental health issues. And I

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Speaker 1: know in New Southway, Queensland, across the country, police are

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Speaker 1: getting frustrated that they feel like they've been brought into

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Speaker 1: these mental health situations where that's not ideally their role.

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Speaker 1: That's the way police get used up.

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Speaker 2: And you're right, Look, policing has changed over the years.

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Speaker 2: You know, you look at the three big factors affecting

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Speaker 2: police at the moment. Domestic violence number one issue across Australia,

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Speaker 2: mental health, as you said up here in Queensland, the

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Speaker 2: number of police shootings we've had recently involving patients with

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Speaker 2: mental health that are threatening police, threatening other people and

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Speaker 2: the police are forced to act. And youth crime, you know,

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Speaker 2: youth crime or crime is core business of police. Police

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Speaker 2: go there to keep the peace. Domestic violence, they go

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Speaker 2: there to keep the peace, but it's a whole of

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Speaker 2: community problem. Mental health is a whole of community problem.

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Speaker 2: But far too often a police held accountable for what

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Speaker 2: they've done dealing at a domestic violence issue, or what they

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Speaker 2: haven't done dealing with mental health people. And I think

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Speaker 2: you know, a lot of the police are unfairly targeted.

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Speaker 2: And look, I'm first to admit a lot of police,

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Speaker 2: and I'm not going to say high percentage of small

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Speaker 2: percentage of police. We'll do the probably not follow through

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Speaker 2: things and do things properly, but you get that in

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Speaker 2: every occupation. What I am saying is that I think

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Speaker 2: there needs to be a reset of the responsibilities and

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Speaker 2: requirements of police in each jurisdiction.

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Speaker 1: It all makes sense and we could talk on all

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Speaker 1: those subjects for the full podcast, but let's talk about

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Speaker 1: yourself for a bit. Your career. Why did you join

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Speaker 1: the police? Were you were you born into the job?

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Speaker 1: Was it something you always aspired to or did you

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Speaker 1: trip into it?

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Speaker 2: No? I sort of tripped into it. I've got no

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Speaker 2: family members at all in the police. Were never had

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Speaker 2: been an uncle through marriage. He was in the fingerprint

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Speaker 2: section up here in Brisbane and he started talking about

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Speaker 2: the police one day and I was fortunate enough that

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Speaker 2: he had approval to take me out on a weekend

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Speaker 2: when I was in year eleven at school and saw

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Speaker 2: what he did and got really excited and interested, and

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Speaker 2: that changed my mind about wanting to join the police.

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Speaker 2: So year twelve, I was going through Kedrin High School,

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Speaker 2: did the application to apply to get into the police,

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Speaker 2: and then January the following year, I started at the

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Speaker 2: Police Academy as a seventeen year old and that was

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Speaker 2: my life.

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Speaker 1: I laughed, because you're come in, and especially as a

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Speaker 1: seven eeen year old. I joined a little bit later,

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Speaker 1: but as a seven eeen year old you would have

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Speaker 1: no idea about the world you were about to step into.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent Gary and back in those days here

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Speaker 2: I did an eighteen month training and cadeticia. It was

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Speaker 2: eighteen months, so I had all these fellows the same age.

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Speaker 2: You weren't allowed to get sworn in until you're nineteen

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Speaker 2: years of age, and unfortunately for me, I was not

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Speaker 2: nineteen when I finished my training, so I was used

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Speaker 2: as a bit of a gopher. But in saying that

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Speaker 2: learned a lot of things. I helped a prosecute to

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Speaker 2: carry his bags and sit in court and learned a

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Speaker 2: hell of a lot. And you know that was great,

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Speaker 2: But I can still remember my very first night out

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Speaker 2: and my very first arrest was for the big offense

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Speaker 2: of drunk in a public place. I went home that

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Speaker 2: night and I shitting myself if I'd done everything right.

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Speaker 2: You know, it was that bloke really drunk, you know,

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Speaker 2: questioning yourself because she said, it's a new world. But

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Speaker 2: you know, you learn back then from experience police you're

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Speaker 2: working with. You got some good advice from sergeants and

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Speaker 2: senior servants and workmates, and your skills just developed there.

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Speaker 2: But you're right, you know, I saw a lot of

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Speaker 2: things as a nineteen twenty year old, and I'm sure

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Speaker 2: you did that a lot of kids my age would

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Speaker 2: never ever see. And you grow up very very quickly from.

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Speaker 1: That the experiences and the importance of having a good

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Speaker 1: mentor your first arrest was someone drunk. Mine was a

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Speaker 1: tick of the vader. I didn't realize. I honestly didn't

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Speaker 1: realize you could summons a person for that offense. And

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Speaker 1: I arrested him and he just happened to be a

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Speaker 1: local guy that had been creating a lot of problems.

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Speaker 1: All the other police thought I has been a tough guy,

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Speaker 1: arresting this blope for a Asian, I didn't know you

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Speaker 1: could subpoena people for or issue a summons. Say they

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Speaker 1: thought I was just being a hard as so oh yeah, yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: I knew what I was doing. But yeah, the mistakes

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Speaker 1: you can make. And I feel sorry for the younger

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Speaker 1: police today because society, well, we didn't have the phones,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't all CCTV footage, and we just didn't seem

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Speaker 1: as accountable. And if you made a mistake, you'd have someone,

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Speaker 1: someone that you could trust, a mentor that would say, look,

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Speaker 1: that's not how we do things. This is how we

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Speaker 1: do things, and you would learn and you'd gravitate towards

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Speaker 1: people that will see you in the right direction. But

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Speaker 1: today's please don't have that luxury, do they.

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Speaker 2: No, I think the level of accountability has gone through

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Speaker 2: the roof. And as you said, look, I remember before

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Speaker 2: I retired, there was a sieed situation down in the

433
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:43,879
Speaker 2: city mall here in the middle of the day, a

434
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,639
Speaker 2: feller armed with a firearm, and I was an acting

435
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 2: chief super at that stage, and I attended the scene,

436
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,159
Speaker 2: and I could not believe everyone in the crowd who

437
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 2: had been pushed right away from it, just there with

438
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,080
Speaker 2: their cameras up in the air, photographing every movement of

439
00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,679
Speaker 2: everyone there. And as you said, we never had that.

440
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,639
Speaker 2: These days you'll see on media, you know, the police,

441
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,200
Speaker 2: you know doing something, you know, assaulting someone. They show

442
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,920
Speaker 2: that one part. They don't tell the full story. Now

443
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 2: there's always two sides to every story. That is a

444
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 2: real difficult thing these days. And it's not only policing.

445
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 2: Sports people see it. Policing now is very, very difficult

446
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 2: and I was only thinking about it last night.

447
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 1: You know.

448
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,199
Speaker 2: When I was first in the police as a youngster,

449
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,959
Speaker 2: the biggest issue then was heroin. We had the Biki

450
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 2: Bandit's running around, you know, using firearms that the rob

451
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 2: banks to get their money to boff up on heroin.

452
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 2: Then they sleep it off and become mellow. These days,

453
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 2: you've got a lot more situations that police have to

454
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 2: deal with, as we said, mental health that's you know,

455
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 2: that's in a horrific area, and the different forms of

456
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,240
Speaker 2: drugs getting out there now on the level of violence.

457
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 2: I wasn't even issued a firearm when I first started

458
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,439
Speaker 2: in the job. It took about six months before we

459
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,000
Speaker 2: got one. I had a handcuff and a baton. But

460
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 2: you look at the police now what they're kitted out with.

461
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 2: You know, you've got your tasers, you've got your capsicn spray,

462
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:10,920
Speaker 2: your firearms, but they've got a choice of different different

463
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,160
Speaker 2: devices to use. But back in my day, that's all

464
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 2: we had. And can I say that I don't think

465
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,399
Speaker 2: the level of violence was around us what it is now.

466
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, true, true, And with all the tactical options that

467
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,920
Speaker 1: they have with the level of training, I should say

468
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 1: lack a level of training that makes it very difficult too.

469
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:31,160
Speaker 2: I had the.

470
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 1: Gun and the handcuffs and you'd go in there to

471
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,120
Speaker 1: make the rest and then yeah, the OC spray came out,

472
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,679
Speaker 1: the taser comes out, and I look at the police

473
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 1: what they got on their belts now and under pressure

474
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,119
Speaker 1: in a critical moment, there's so many options. I don't know.

475
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 1: It just seemed to be easier when we had the

476
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 1: big battons and you knew what you were going to do.

477
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,919
Speaker 1: If you couldn't contain this person physically, you had a baton,

478
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 1: and if it escalated, you had a gun. Now there's

479
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 1: so many different options which needed to be bored in.

480
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 1: But I think the training needs to come in that

481
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 1: people feel comfortable using all those different devices or weapons.

482
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,680
Speaker 2: And look, I think back in the day to communication

483
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 2: which you go to an effective communication with people. But

484
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 2: I think the young police these days, you know, trying

485
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 2: to communicate with someone that's drug effected, someone that's got

486
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:25,199
Speaker 2: mental health issues. It's a huge challenge.

487
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 1: And on it too, the respect has gone for police

488
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 1: to a degree. Just a society for a variety of reasons,

489
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 1: is not respecting authority. And you talked about the COVID period.

490
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 1: I don't think that helped a lot of people liking

491
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:44,960
Speaker 1: police around this area in Sydney. Helicopters hovering around, police

492
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: helicopters checking if people are out of their homes. It

493
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 1: doesn't create a good relationship between the community and the

494
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 1: police that were there to serve the community.

495
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:55,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I agree. I think there's a lot of

496
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 2: learnings from COVID that we can take away from it.

497
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,479
Speaker 2: And I think the big thing is working in well

498
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 2: during the COVID period. I was at the Racing Integrity

499
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 2: Commission here and racing still continued during the COVID period,

500
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 2: but we had a group of people within the industry stakeholders.

501
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 2: We worked together to put in things in place on

502
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 2: how people could still earn their living, how people could

503
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 2: still race, but conforming with all the COVID legislation. And

504
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 2: I think that was quite effective in doing that. There

505
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,640
Speaker 2: was a mutual understanding between all the parties involved as

506
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 2: what we needed to do, how we conformed, and I

507
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 2: think that worked pretty well from a policing point of view. Again,

508
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:40,679
Speaker 2: you know, police were thrown into the ring. There was

509
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 2: legislation developed and police had to enforce that legislation.

510
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: Okay, tell us about your career. Just describe your career

511
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: and I've got details of your career here and it's

512
00:26:54,880 --> 00:27:00,120
Speaker 1: been wide and varied on different things, working with external organization,

513
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 1: on special investigations, the Crime Commission. Tell us about your career.

514
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 2: Well, go from the outset. I think policing is a

515
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 2: fantastic career for anyone. You look at my CV there

516
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 2: and I've had so many opportunities to do different things.

517
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 2: One thing that really attracted me to the police was

518
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 2: going in each day. You never knew what you're going

519
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,879
Speaker 2: to get up to what was coming your way. The

520
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 2: other beauty is is the ability to transfer and move

521
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 2: within the organization of different areas, which I think is

522
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 2: a fantastic opportunity and getting right back to our very

523
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 2: initial conversation here, upscilling yourself across a multitude of disciplines.

524
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 2: I had my started off the same as everyone in

525
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 2: uniform career, worked in traffic branch for several months. I

526
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 2: didn't like it, went to suburban stations, absolutely loved it.

527
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 2: You got to know your community, you got to know

528
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 2: who the young people that needed a bit of attention

529
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 2: in the area were. You're out patrolling meeting other people.

530
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 2: And then I had thirty two years in playing close

531
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 2: which I absolutely loved, running local cibs, working in local

532
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:11,199
Speaker 2: criminal investigation branches, and then I had the opportunity to

533
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 2: do a number of other things, and probably one of

534
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 2: the best opportunities I had was working at the Australian

535
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 2: Crime Commission as the manager of the Queensland Office, but

536
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 2: being given the head of Determination role for major and

537
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 2: organized crime around Australia with task forces around Australia, and

538
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 2: that was absolutely brilliant. You got to see how police

539
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 2: and other jurisdictions operated and engaging with those people was fantastic.

540
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 2: The Royal Commissions here, so I was as a constable

541
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 2: seconded to the Fitzgerald Commission of Inquiry as as surveillance operative.

542
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 2: There was five US initially that started that and that

543
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 2: was a real eye out and for me, particularly at

544
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 2: that stage in my career. And then you know, the

545
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 2: Royal commissions on top of that, and did the Flood

546
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 2: Raw Quincident Flood Royal Commission, which again was a very

547
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 2: much annoye opener talking a lot of people who'd lost

548
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 2: family members and friends through the flooding devastation right across

549
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 2: the southeast corner. And then the Trade Union Raw Commission,

550
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 2: which is very topical at the moment. And then since retiring,

551
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 2: the DNA RLE Commission, the DV Commission, and a little

552
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 2: bit in the Britney Higgins Commission down south. But probably

553
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 2: out of all that period of time, I thoroughly enjoyed

554
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 2: my playing clothes career. You saw, you met good people,

555
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 2: you met more people, you saw the best and worst

556
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 2: of people, and you know, I think it was great

557
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 2: working in a very close knit team environment in those areas.

558
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: You would have gone through the stage as a detective sergeant,

559
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: whether you're in major crime or in local area commands

560
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: at local police stations. I found that rank very rewarding.

561
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: It was exciting. I don't know if it correlated with

562
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: the stage of your life and career, but you finally

563
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: the shackles are off, You've got the experience and you're

564
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 1: going to start running jobs. Do you have memories or

565
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: investigationations that you thought, yeah, I've found my passion.

566
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 2: Certainly did, and I think as getting promoted to detective sergeant,

567
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 2: as you said, is the big step, you think I

568
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 2: finally made it. I was fortunate enough as a detective

569
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 2: sergeant to run a local criminal investigation branch and had

570
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 2: a great crew working under me, and that responsibility that

571
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 2: came with that position was good. Ensuring that people were

572
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 2: working with you were traveling down the same path as yourself,

573
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 2: but also forming a close knit team. And you know, policing,

574
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 2: in my view, it's like sport. If you haven't got

575
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 2: a team not singing in the same direction, you're going

576
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 2: to have problems. And I think molding that team, leading

577
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 2: that team and to achieve results, you know, was quite enjoyable.

578
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 1: Very satisfying. And I know you have a sporting background

579
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: and interest and the way that you've described a team

580
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: those even like working up to becoming a detective sergeant

581
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 1: when and you thought, who are these wise old men

582
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: or women that know all this information and can just

583
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: make decisions like that. Then all of a sudden you

584
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 1: look and you become that You become that person, and

585
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 1: you've got what you think are young kids coming to

586
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 1: you going what do we do now, boss or sage.

587
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: But the teamwork aspect of it, they're my fond memories

588
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: of when you had a good crew. Not all the

589
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: same type of personalities. It was always a range of

590
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: misfits and someone had a skill set here or there,

591
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: and you had a job. You get an investigation and

592
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: you follow it and you get that really satisfying moment

593
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 1: where you've got the breakthrough all of a sudden this mystery.

594
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 1: You know who's who the person is, and then you

595
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: set your traps to catch that person.

596
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 2: That's right. And I think you said you'd run a

597
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 2: major instant room, and I'd always appreciate the staff that

598
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 2: were there, whether it was the most you know, you

599
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 2: have your briefings in the morning in the afternoon, and

600
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 2: whether it was the most junior uniform constable and the

601
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 2: most senior detective in the room. I always made the

602
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 2: point of going around the room individually and from the

603
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 2: outset saying, look, you've all come from different backgrounds, so

604
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 2: you've all got different skills. Don't think your idea is

605
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 2: stupid because we mightn't have thought about it, and encourage

606
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 2: them to come forward and feel part of that team.

607
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 2: And I think that's the best way to get results.

608
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 2: You're embracing everyone's ideas, you're bringing them on board as

609
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 2: part of the team and sort of singing from the

610
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 2: same sheet.

611
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. And I was shown that by

612
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: people I respected. That is the way to get the

613
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: best out of a team and let everyone and I

614
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 1: think it also motivates people to think that they're part

615
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 1: of it. And as you said, you could have the

616
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 1: most junior person that's just straight out of uniform sitting

617
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: there in awe of all these detectives but makes a

618
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: comment that's probably the smartest comment, potentially could be the

619
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: smartest comment in the room, and points you're in the direction.

620
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. And it's just giving them the confidence

621
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 2: to speak up that they're not going to be ridiculed

622
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 2: if you know that people think it stupid.

623
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: So I want to speak to you about the murder

624
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: of Allison Baden Clay. But is there an investigation that

625
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: you found particularly satisfying, as like one particular investigation that's

626
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: with you other than Allison Baden Clay's murder that sticks

627
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: with you, that you thought, Okay, this is what policing

628
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: is all about.

629
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 2: Yep. The Australian Crime Commission Victoria, when I was doing

630
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 2: the Head of determination for the High Risk Crime Groups,

631
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 2: we were working on an operation conjointly with the Piranha

632
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 2: Task Force in Victoria and Customs in relation to the

633
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 2: importation of a large quantity of extacy pills. We worked

634
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 2: on that job for about twelve fourteen months and had

635
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 2: a great, great team, great relationship with the other jurisdictions,

636
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 2: and when it came to resolution, we uncovered four point

637
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 2: two ton of ecstasy pills which were brought in to

638
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 2: the ports in Victoria, which is still the largest single

639
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 2: siege of ecstasy pills anywhere in the world. It came

640
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 2: in tomato tins on a shipping container and the first

641
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 2: couple of rows when the shipping container was unpacked were

642
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 2: genuine tomato in the tins, and then as you got

643
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 2: further back there was the ecstasy pills and that I

644
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 2: just could not believe that the quantity of the sheer quantity.

645
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 2: But the way that the three groups worked in together.

646
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 1: Tell me, what does four point two tons worth of

647
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 1: pills look like?

648
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 2: A shiploads? Well, I think there was about fourteen can

649
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 2: openers that they went through electric can openers, and it

650
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 2: was amazing. A skip if you imagine a skip in

651
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 2: half full of little pills. It was incredible.

652
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: Right, So what's the street value of something like.

653
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 2: That back then? They talked about seven hundred and fifty million,

654
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 2: because I'm talking, you know, back two thousand and nine,

655
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 2: twenty ten. The value that's very, very high. But the

656
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,839
Speaker 2: offender is what they did. The tomato tins. They were

657
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 2: packed in boxes of six each of those tins to

658
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,879
Speaker 2: get the weight of the container consistent, so to get

659
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 2: through any X ray or you know, checking by customs,

660
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 2: they had to get the weight of the container ideal.

661
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,479
Speaker 2: So what they did is a number of tomato tins

662
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 2: they filled up with rocks to make sure they had

663
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 2: the weight correct and the rest were all pills. So

664
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 2: it was a massive load. Never seen anything like it.

665
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 1: You guys and girls really wrecked someone's party for that.

666
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 1: Someone would have been disappointed with that type of seizure.

667
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 2: I think so, and I think the ring leaders back

668
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 2: in Italy were the ones that we become a little

669
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,800
Speaker 2: bit hot under the collar. They'd lost to that money

670
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 2: and drugs. So yeah, I.

671
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 1: Can imagine the reaction, the risk you take.

672
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 2: When you want to get into those enterprises.

673
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 1: Exactly how long was the investigation going on and what

674
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: was the magnitude of the investigation.

675
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 2: The investigation was a lot of electronic surveillance, physical surveillance,

676
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 2: identification of suspects and what happened with this one. It

677
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 2: was we had suspects in South Australia, Victoria, New South

678
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 2: Wales from the Griffith area and Queensland, so there was

679
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 2: a joint effort right across all those jurisdictions in relation

680
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 2: to the targets we had. An investigation went on for many,

681
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 2: many months. Even after the shipping container came in, it

682
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 2: continued on there. I think it's a better least of

683
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 2: the twelve months after that to round up all the offenders.

684
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 1: Massive, massive investigation.

685
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 2: To me, that was just a great example of working

686
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 2: with other jurisdictions to get an outstanding result.

687
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 1: There is a satisfaction there. Like I say to people,

688
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 1: and I put my hand up that as a detective,

689
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,240
Speaker 1: you feel like you're a hunter. You're hunting the person,

690
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 1: and people might say, oh, that's a bit extreme, but

691
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: that's what you feel like. And if you're involved in

692
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 1: investigation like that, and it comes through to fruition where

693
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: the point where you recover four point two tons of

694
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,240
Speaker 1: ecstasy pills, it's you're on a bit of a high,

695
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:56,800
Speaker 1: aren't you after something like that?

696
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 2: Oh, I look one hundred percent and I think you

697
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 2: know it's again. I'll go back to the sport thing.

698
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 2: You have a win, you celebrate, and I think that

699
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 2: was one of the good things I liked about the

700
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,839
Speaker 2: team environment and the police. You had a good win.

701
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,399
Speaker 2: You know, you achieved a good result, and a very

702
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 2: important part is celebrating as a team. And I think

703
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 2: these days, you know, I'm not sure where that still

704
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 2: occurs to the same extent as what had happened when

705
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:22,959
Speaker 2: you and I are in it, and I hope it does.

706
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 2: I think that's a very important part of it.

707
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, because there's a lot that can be said negative

708
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 1: side of the culture of police, but there was a

709
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 1: lot of positive sides of the culture, that uniformity, that

710
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,800
Speaker 1: the brotherhood that there was good aspects of the culture.

711
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 1: And we'll talk about the Fitzgerald inquiry. We had the

712
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 1: Wood inquiry down here in New South Wales. I wonder

713
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 1: if that misses with policing now because I don't know

714
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 1: about you, but when I joined I joined policing as

715
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 1: a lifetime career. It was a vacation. That's what I

716
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 1: was going to do. I think people, from what I

717
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 1: hear and you and I have both been out around

718
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: about the same time, people are using as a stepping

719
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 1: saying I'll have a look at policing, do that for

720
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 1: a bit and then move onto something else, and so

721
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,399
Speaker 1: they don't invest as much as I think you need

722
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 1: to when you're committed and you're a career police officer.

723
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 2: Look, I agree with you as I said, I left

724
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 2: from school straight into policing. That's all I knew from

725
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,760
Speaker 2: the age of seventeen to the age I got out,

726
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 2: and I knew that I had a career path in

727
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 2: front of me. I knew if I didn't want to

728
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 2: be a uniform off so I could go into forensics,

729
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 2: I could go and become a detective, and all those

730
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 2: options were there. That's a big thing that you know,

731
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,879
Speaker 2: people need to look at. And I think a lot

732
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 2: of it comes back to recruitment. I can remember the

733
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 2: hoops had to jump through to get recruited to join

734
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 2: the police and everything. But I put in the works

735
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 2: one hundred percent committed that I want to be a

736
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 2: police officer. I'm not sure what recruiting standards are like now.

737
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:53,359
Speaker 2: I know up here in Queens And we went down

738
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 2: the stage of fifty to fifty male and female, and

739
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 2: you know, hearing reports that you know, males who would

740
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 2: have been a good police officer missing out because they

741
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 2: weren't of the right sex. Now that's that's changed. Now

742
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 2: we've gone down the stage of you know, you've got

743
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 2: to have a university degree behind you to get into

744
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 2: the police. Well, I don't think that worked that well either,

745
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 2: you know, I think it's a recruitment has a big

746
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:18,720
Speaker 2: part of it, you know, getting the right people, getting

747
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 2: the people that look, you don't have to be the

748
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 2: sharpest tool and the shed to be a police officer.

749
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 2: As long as your street wise and you've got a

750
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 2: level of common sense and you can communicate. They are

751
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 2: three critical things that I believe, you know, that can

752
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 2: make you a good police officer. And then you learn

753
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 2: as you go along.

754
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 1: And there's there's obviously benefits to having the intelligence, but

755
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 1: you put a team together and you could have the

756
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: person that just had the communications skills in the street

757
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: smart so you can have the IT expert that's fascinated

758
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: by the computer system that the rest of us are going, Yeah,

759
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: which button do we push type situation. You need that

760
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,879
Speaker 1: that cross section of people. I want to talk about

761
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 1: the Fitzgerald and I raise that not sitting in judgment

762
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 1: because we had the same thing down here and yeah,

763
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:11,320
Speaker 1: you look at any police organization, i'd suggest across the globe,

764
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 1: and there's been pockets of pockets of corruption. I know

765
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 1: with the Wood Royal Commission. I was a major crime

766
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 1: detective at the time and it hit me hard. There

767
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 1: was shame associated with what came out in the inquiry

768
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 1: and the level of corruption I say, isolated pockets of

769
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 1: corruption and it was exposed and removed needed to be done.

770
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 1: No one's arguing against that, but I know at the

771
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: time when it was happening, there was a lot of

772
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:44,359
Speaker 1: resentment from detectives in major crime because we're all being

773
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 1: tired with the one brush you worked surveillance. As I

774
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:52,760
Speaker 1: understand in the Fitzgerald inquiry. That would have been a tough,

775
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: tough gig for you, I would imagine, because it's working

776
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 1: in your own organization and the type of things that

777
00:40:59,080 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 1: you would have seen.

778
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 2: And it was Garius I mentioned before. I think I

779
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 2: had about four years five years service at that stage,

780
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:11,280
Speaker 2: and corruption and inappropriate relationships I'd never come across anywhere

781
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 2: in my career. So it was a huge eye opener.

782
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,320
Speaker 2: That was back in the days where everyone had pages,

783
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 2: you know, mobile phones with the size of a house

784
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 2: and you had one of them. Batteries last about ten minutes,

785
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 2: and you know those days there, we weren't allowed into

786
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 2: the office where the investigators were, so we'd meet in

787
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 2: the park and our sergeant and come and give us

788
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 2: some a job what it was, and you look at

789
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 2: it and you think, Holy Dearly, you know, it's just

790
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,320
Speaker 2: really happening. And it was a real big eye opener

791
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 2: for me and I think some of the other people

792
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 2: who had been around a little bit longer. For me,

793
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 2: it was a little bit of a shock, But for

794
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 2: me personally, it was an eye opener, not mainly I

795
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 2: think looking at the way some of the organized criminal

796
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 2: networks worked, how they infiltrated policing ranks and just the

797
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 2: way they operated in their own environment was quite interesting.

798
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it flourished to a degree of society

799
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: had changed, but there wasn't the accountability. I can't see

800
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 1: that level of corruption occurring in this day and age.

801
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 1: I think, you know, everyone's more accountable. But yeah, it

802
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 1: must have been a tough gig. And after you work there,

803
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 1: I know people that worked in those type of roles

804
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:23,879
Speaker 1: when they came back into the organization there was some

805
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: I think wrong resentment of the people because of the

806
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 1: role that they had done. But you know, any fair

807
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: minded police officer has to say, well, you know, we

808
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 1: don't stand for corruption. Did you find any of that

809
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 1: coming back into coming back into the organization after working

810
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: on the Fitzgerald Inquiry? And I just clarify just in

811
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 1: case we're talking, we know what it was. Fitzgerald Inquiry

812
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 1: was the inquiry into corruption within the Queensland Police.

813
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 2: You know, Gary, I was very lucky I went from

814
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 2: the Fitzgerald Inquiry to relieving officer in charge of the

815
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:01,879
Speaker 2: Valley Cob. The Valley c be here is a very

816
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 2: much smaller scale of what you've got. The King's cross.

817
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 2: You know he had the distreet.

818
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, done. I've done some work up there in the valley.

819
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 2: I get the sense of it, and look, a lot

820
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 2: of the main players in the Fitzgerald and Quarry, the

821
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 2: organized criminals had businesses and enterprises set up around the valley.

822
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:20,320
Speaker 2: So I must admit I was a little bit nervous

823
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 2: about coming back, But the team I had around me,

824
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 2: I think I was accepted very well. I'm probably be

825
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 2: naive to think they thought, oh, here's this dog coming

826
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 2: from working on coppers and working on them, and now

827
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 2: he's our boss. But I just treat every day as

828
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 2: it comes. What you see is what you get with me.

829
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 2: And I never had any issues, never had any threats,

830
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,359
Speaker 2: never had anything directly to my face. Probably a lot,

831
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 2: you know what the police are like, behind your back,

832
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 2: there'd be a lot going on. But no, I never

833
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 2: had too many issues at all.

834
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 1: In the work that you've done in policing, what was

835
00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:00,080
Speaker 1: the area that was your favorite part. What did you

836
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,879
Speaker 1: enjoy most about being a detective and why you chose

837
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 1: detective because there's some very worthwhile career paths in uniform.

838
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 1: What was it about being a detective that was the

839
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: thing that rocking.

840
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,280
Speaker 2: My big interest was it was taking a complaint further

841
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 2: and actually looking into it, you know, trying to identify

842
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:20,280
Speaker 2: the offender, trying to get victims of crime their property

843
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:25,399
Speaker 2: back for breaking. But just just investigating is what really

844
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 2: drew my passion. Like Uniform, you did a little bit

845
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 2: of that, but largely, and I think even more near

846
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 2: you're going from job to job the job so your

847
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 2: time to do investigations was a little bit restricted, and

848
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 2: I just love the investigation field once I got into it,

849
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 2: you know, getting a getting a report from a break

850
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 2: and having a look at it, you know, doing door knocks,

851
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 2: doing the grunt work that sometimes uniform staff don't have

852
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:53,399
Speaker 2: time to do, and working out a pattern. Then getting

853
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 2: a crook and talking to the crook and you know,

854
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 2: getting their trust and getting them to off up to

855
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 2: multiple breakdowns and going for driving the car to point

856
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 2: out where they did them and getting property back. I

857
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:08,240
Speaker 2: think that was rewarding. But one big thing I learned

858
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 2: from it is communication. Is you know, talking to people

859
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,399
Speaker 2: initially how you'd like to be spoken to, treating them

860
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:17,279
Speaker 2: as human as well, and then you know you're up

861
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 2: the anti you're down the ante from there. But it's

862
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 2: a good starting point. And I think you know a

863
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 2: lot of the crooks.

864
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 1: You know.

865
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:26,800
Speaker 2: My wife and he said, the other day, we're talking

866
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 2: to someone that we're out somewhere up the coast, and

867
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 2: a fellow come up and spoke to me. She said,

868
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 2: who's that? And I said, I arrested him back in

869
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety three. You know, so not every crook's going

870
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 2: to do that to you, But I think if you

871
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 2: treat them properly, you know, you can earn a level

872
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 2: of respect. But the investigation side was I thought was fantastic.

873
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 2: We used to do the early morning drug raids. He'd

874
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:50,919
Speaker 2: get information on place and that was a great team

875
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 2: building exercise and it had the adrenaline going, you know,

876
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 2: nothing like you know, kicking in a door of someone's

877
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 2: house at seven in the morning and finding gear and

878
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 2: you know, it's you know, that sort of thing. Was

879
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 2: just it was just great. You know, I just thoroughly

880
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 2: enjoyed it.

881
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 1: The way you just describe that market. It's almost like,

882
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 1: I know, on jobs like that, and I'm thinking, and

883
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,359
Speaker 1: we're getting paid for this, the level of excitement you'd

884
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 1: pay money to actually have the experience of doing an

885
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:26,280
Speaker 1: early morning raid or investigating a particular type.

886
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,479
Speaker 2: Of crime, and you know a lot of it there

887
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 2: is was like that, you know, and it was all legitimate,

888
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 2: and you know, we had to conform with legislation and

889
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 2: policies and procedures. But conforming and that didn't take the

890
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 2: fun away from doing that sort of work exciting.

891
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 1: How do you find court? Because that's I think court

892
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 1: scares a lot of people away from potentially being detectives,

893
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: because if you're going to put your hand up as

894
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 1: a detective, you're going to spend a lot of time

895
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 1: in the witness box under cross examination. Whether you've done

896
00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: everything right, it doesn't matter because these barrisss, defense barrisses

897
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 1: or solicitors get paid a hell of a lot of

898
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 1: money to make you look stupid in front of the

899
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 1: magistrate or the jury. How did you find court experience

900
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 1: and how did it develop over the years?

901
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 2: I guess I was fortunate that giving court evidence pre Fitzgerald,

902
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 2: when you're relying on record of interview type record of

903
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 2: interviews or interviews in your notebook and getting attacked by

904
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 2: illegal off barristers and that well, you know, you just

905
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 2: wrote these notes. You just made this up. And even

906
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 2: though their client had signed and adopted that this is

907
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:36,879
Speaker 2: a true record. And then going on there too after Fitzgerald,

908
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 2: where interviews and everything were tape recorded. I think that

909
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 2: took a lot of the angst away, but it still

910
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 2: didn't take away why did you do this? Why did

911
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 2: you do that? Why didn't you do this? You said

912
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,800
Speaker 2: this to my client, and I think you know, going

913
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 2: in there is straight up front. You know, it either

914
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 2: happened or it didn't, and that see what I tried

915
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 2: to adopt. It's it can be harrowing. But on one

916
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 2: thing I noticed now is you know, you look at

917
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 2: people are getting detective appointments that haven't given evidence too

918
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 2: much in a district or supreme court, and I think

919
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,319
Speaker 2: that's one thing that we're seeing is a bit of

920
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 2: a deskilling that in that ability, which is quite important.

921
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 2: It's yeah, I think you know, the tape recording of

922
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:27,320
Speaker 2: interviews has reduced a lot of the angst going to court,

923
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:28,359
Speaker 2: but not all.

924
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: We had that down in New South Wales. I forget

925
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 1: the years that came in euspinterviews and I was well

926
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: entrenched in detectives at that stage and we all thought

927
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:41,399
Speaker 1: the world was going to going to end what you've

928
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 1: got to get them on tape and it's not sit

929
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 1: down interviews, and it was confronting, and I remember I

930
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 1: put my hand up to go down there to learn it,

931
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 1: to become a trainer in training it because I thought,

932
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 1: that's the interview room is a skill that you need

933
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:57,399
Speaker 1: as a detective, and if that's the way that we're

934
00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:00,919
Speaker 1: doing it, you've got to get your head around it. Yes,

935
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:03,320
Speaker 1: I do think it reduced a lot of time in court,

936
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 1: and I think it's beneficial. No one would argue against it.

937
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 1: It's a much better system to have in place. But

938
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 1: you made the point there that people haven't got court experience.

939
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 1: I was working in homicide and people would getting to

940
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 1: the rank of pretty close to the detective sergeant, and

941
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 1: you could count on one hand the time they've been

942
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:26,279
Speaker 1: in the witness box. And I almost felt sorry for them,

943
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 1: because when it comes to the crunch on a big one,

944
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:32,439
Speaker 1: you're putting yourself in the homicide situation. You could find

945
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 1: yourself in the witness box for a couple of days

946
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 1: on complex matters, and I don't think they get the experience.

947
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 1: I had a detective. I didn't like him at the

948
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:43,919
Speaker 1: time for what he did to me, but he set

949
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:46,800
Speaker 1: me up at the local court. He knew the defense

950
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 1: solicitor and told me not to worry about preparing for

951
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 1: this case. It was just to break an ender because

952
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,359
Speaker 1: it'll go easy. He'll probably end up pleading guilty. So

953
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 1: I naively took his advice and didn't get my head

954
00:49:56,719 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: round the brief. He normally would get it the witness

955
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 1: box before I'd get in the witness box, but on

956
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 1: this occasion he didn't get in the in the witness box,

957
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:07,759
Speaker 1: he said, no, you're going first. I got in there

958
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 1: and just totally carved up. It came out. I think

959
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 1: the tie was around the back of a suit and

960
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 1: it was just a complete mess. And I'm thinking, my god.

961
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 1: And he said how'd you go? Because he wasn't allowed

962
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 1: in court and I said, I got ripped a part

963
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 1: I should have prepared. And he said, have you learned anything?

964
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 1: And I said, yeah, I've got to prepare for court.

965
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: And then he introduced me to his mate, who was

966
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 1: a defense solicitor. So that was but I never forget

967
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 1: that lesson Mark, And it's something that you've got to

968
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:40,840
Speaker 1: prepare and you've got to be professional, and that's the

969
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,240
Speaker 1: sharp end of the work that you do as a detective,

970
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 1: because it's all right having the fun investigating locking people up,

971
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 1: but when it's all said and done, you want that

972
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 1: conviction beside the beside the rest.

973
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 2: And it's equated to it's like one of the toilet.

974
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:57,359
Speaker 2: If you don't use the paper, you're in the shit

975
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 2: and you've got a place. A lot of emptis some

976
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,919
Speaker 2: paperwork and preparation. As you said, your paperwork going to court,

977
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 2: your brief of evidence, your statements have to be spot

978
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 2: on to close the gap for any cross examination for

979
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:13,439
Speaker 2: getting ripped apart. But preparation is critical and I think

980
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:18,480
Speaker 2: in major cases where getting your team together to make

981
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 2: sure you're all all seeing from the same page, that

982
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 2: everyone is on track with what did occur. And I

983
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:28,320
Speaker 2: think that's a critical part of it, particularly these days

984
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 2: we have the high profile matters where you've got a

985
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 2: team and you know, the big media locally, in a state, overseas.

986
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 2: That's where it becomes absolutely critical that the team is

987
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:39,320
Speaker 2: on the game.

988
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 1: And yeah, well and the further up and well, I

989
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:46,359
Speaker 1: think we can talk about this in Part two and

990
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 1: Allison baden Clay matter. But the further up you get

991
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:55,879
Speaker 1: in the rank structure and running an investigation, you're very

992
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: much reliant on the people below you to brief you

993
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 1: because you might have thands of pieces of information. It

994
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 1: was a detective inspector. If I was running the job,

995
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:08,479
Speaker 1: I can't get my head around all that information, so

996
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:11,239
Speaker 1: I have to rely on the people underneath me to

997
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 1: pass that information on and make the decisions accordingly. So

998
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 1: it very much is about attention to detail in investigations

999
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 1: and managing the sheer volume of information that's correct.

1000
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 2: And I think as a detective inspector or detective superintendent,

1001
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 2: one of the roles is you know those Bade and

1002
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 2: Clay when I was a figure ahead in that role,

1003
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:35,360
Speaker 2: media figurehead, largely to take the pressure away from the

1004
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:38,919
Speaker 2: detective senior sergeant running it. But it was a great

1005
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 2: team underneath us. You know, we briefed in the morning,

1006
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 2: we briefed in the afternoon, and I think that is

1007
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,360
Speaker 2: where it's absolutely critical. And I similar role as that

1008
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 2: as getting the information but also providing the team with

1009
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:53,400
Speaker 2: the resources and everything they needed to allow them to

1010
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 2: do the job properly. And we'll talk about it later on.

1011
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 1: It's very much say it because I'd like to get

1012
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:06,760
Speaker 1: your views as a superintendent involved in the bigger investigations

1013
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: and what that role is. But look, we might take

1014
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:14,400
Speaker 1: a break here. We're also going to dive into domestic violence,

1015
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:17,840
Speaker 1: which is something that nationally is very topical at the moment.

1016
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 1: But thanks for part one. Then when we get back

1017
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 1: into part two and we're going to carry the conversation

1018
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 1: further and delve deeper into your career and some of

1019
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:30,719
Speaker 1: the investigations and your thoughts on policing. But having said that,

1020
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,920
Speaker 1: you've left me with some thoughts about your management of

1021
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 1: youth crime, and I think, yeah, there needs to at

1022
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 1: least be discussion about some of the things that you're raising.

1023
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, Arry, I think I think it's great. I

1024
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:44,799
Speaker 2: think it's a topic in itself. And you know what,

1025
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:49,440
Speaker 2: I think what I'd really love to see is policymakers.

1026
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 2: You know, you look at a lot of the policy

1027
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:54,239
Speaker 2: makers in government departments, so young kids that have come

1028
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:56,479
Speaker 2: straight out of YUNI, they've never seen an angry man.

1029
00:53:57,120 --> 00:53:58,759
Speaker 2: How many of them gone out in the road to

1030
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 2: see what's going on, to see what occurs, you know,

1031
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:05,040
Speaker 2: to go on control. I think youth crime and the

1032
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 2: way it's going, I think that is an area where

1033
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 2: it needs to be a solid panel discussion with some

1034
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 2: of the policymakers, the politicians, and the police and judiciary

1035
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 2: that are dealing with it.

1036
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:18,799
Speaker 1: All the people involved in it that understand because it's

1037
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,759
Speaker 1: a complex problem and that's not one simple solution is

1038
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 1: going to fix it. That needs a multi layer approach.

1039
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:28,160
Speaker 1: Really does on like DV exactly the same. Okay, well,

1040
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:31,320
Speaker 1: we'll be back shortly for part to Thanks Garry.