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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the show.

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Speaker 2: Remember when we had the twenty twenty two election and

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Speaker 2: it was called the climate election. Well, here we are

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Speaker 2: barely three years later. Gosh, three year terms really out

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Speaker 2: long enough to get anything, are they?

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Speaker 1: So here we are.

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Speaker 2: Twenty twenty five, as ex tropical Cyclone Alfred and the

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Speaker 2: recent wildfires in California showed, unsurprisingly, climate is still quite

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Speaker 2: an issue. You don't need reminding. We have another election

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Speaker 2: like any second. But why is this important? Why is

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Speaker 2: climate an important thing at election time? Because while we

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Speaker 2: are busy wasting airtime explaining that yes, nuclear is a

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Speaker 2: great idea, but not really for us because there are

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Speaker 2: cheaper and simpler options, come on, or that the IPCC

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Speaker 2: is really really serious about not approving any new fossil

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Speaker 2: fuel projects, and yet the current government continues to do

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Speaker 2: so well, where is he doing that? Countries like France

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Speaker 2: are putting time, energy and resources into developing a national

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Speaker 2: strategy for how their country will adapt to climate change,

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Speaker 2: and they're projecting a four degree rise in temperature by

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Speaker 2: twenty one hundred, which is staggering to consider what that means.

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Speaker 2: They're planning on how to keep their country their country,

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Speaker 2: how to keep their culture, their culture, how to.

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Speaker 1: Feed themselves, how to protect themselves.

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Speaker 2: I really, really hope that they never ever need the

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Speaker 2: full extent of that plan. I've only read a bit

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Speaker 2: of it because it's in French, but as they're starting

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Speaker 2: to implement it from this year, at least somewhere on Earth,

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Speaker 2: there are modern governments, modern developed economies being realistic about

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Speaker 2: what we'll need to prepare for for where we are

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Speaker 2: all headed. So what about here? Do you know where

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Speaker 2: each party stands? Do you know what their track record

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Speaker 2: on climate policy is? Or what about where you stand

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Speaker 2: in how important climate is for you as an election issue?

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Speaker 1: For you?

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Speaker 2: You might be more about the economy, healthcare, immigration, national security.

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Speaker 2: Well that's good if you're one of those things, because

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Speaker 2: every single one of those issues is a climate issue.

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Speaker 2: The only way that democracy works is if the public

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Speaker 2: can grasp board is at stake and what the policies they're.

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Speaker 1: Voting on are.

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Speaker 2: And today you're going to discover a lot of one

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Speaker 2: and not too much of the other, but enough to

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Speaker 2: make sure that you're at least informed.

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Speaker 1: Back right after the break, gooday, thanks for listening to

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Speaker 1: the show.

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Speaker 2: This is better than yesterday, making it better every single

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Speaker 2: episode since twenty thirteen.

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Speaker 1: My name is Lasha Gibsberg.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad you made it, and if you want to

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Speaker 2: come and check us out at the live shows we

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Speaker 2: do every month, we do Story Club, which is at

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Speaker 2: the Factory Theater in Marrickville.

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Speaker 1: April thirteenth is our next show.

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Speaker 2: Linda McDougall, Duncan Fellows, Annaly Constable, and Alex Lee joined

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Speaker 2: Zoe don't in Lodge and myself to tell stories no

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Speaker 2: turning back.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of apt because I was talking.

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Speaker 2: About what theme we're going to do this show, and

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Speaker 2: she goes I was reading all this climate stuff, and

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Speaker 2: I thought, no turning back. But that's a big groom.

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Speaker 2: I was like, Oh, that'll be all right, Zoe, let's

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Speaker 2: figure it out. You are going to hear something.

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Speaker 1: You need to hear today.

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Speaker 2: If you know me and you're familiar with my adventures

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Speaker 2: on this planet, you would know about me and my

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Speaker 2: history talking about climate change and my experiences with climate change.

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Speaker 2: It literally sent me crazy that I can make this

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Speaker 2: show today, That I can calmly talk about four degrees

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Speaker 2: of warming in the intro just now is testament to

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Speaker 2: the immense power of great doctors and great meds. That

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Speaker 2: I could even do this right now. It was an

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Speaker 2: impossibility just a few years back, but it's okay. Global warming,

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Speaker 2: climate policy, these things are very hard to talk about.

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Speaker 2: I did kind of get exploring as to why these

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Speaker 2: things are so hard to talk about. And the best

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Speaker 2: thing I could come up with to explain how it

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Speaker 2: feels or why it feels like that comes from a

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Speaker 2: philosopher by the name of Timothy Morton, who developed the

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Speaker 2: concept of a thing called a hyper object. According to Morton,

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Speaker 2: a hyper object is something that's not confined to a

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Speaker 2: single point in space or time. It's made up of

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Speaker 2: multiple relationships with other objects, can even take.

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Speaker 1: Over other objects, putting its effects.

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Speaker 2: Onto them, and global warming is a perfect example of

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Speaker 2: a hyperobject. Doesn't have a specific location or a coordinate

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Speaker 2: in space and time. It's made up of human activities,

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Speaker 2: natural climate changes, other factors. It affects regular objects as well.

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Speaker 2: The heat waves of global warming, the increasing natural disasters,

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Speaker 2: ecological changes all have impacts on non hyper objects. But

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Speaker 2: the problem is the name should give you a clue,

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Speaker 2: is that a hyper object is so vast in size

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Speaker 2: scale complexity that our brains can't actually process, or understand

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Speaker 2: and it or even come up with a way to

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Speaker 2: address it. If it's a problem, this feeling of this

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Speaker 2: unanswered question to this incredibly urgent problem, it's incredibly uncomfortable.

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Speaker 2: So when you can find someone who can communicate clearly, calmly,

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Speaker 2: passionately about everything that we can kind of get our

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Speaker 2: heads around and what we need to know, it's a

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Speaker 2: real gift.

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Speaker 1: It does go a.

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Speaker 2: Long way to relieve some of that discomfort that you

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Speaker 2: might feel thinking about this stuff. And that perfectly describes

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Speaker 2: my guest today. Manda Mackenzie is the co founder and

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Speaker 2: CEO of the Climate Council. You can find out more

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Speaker 2: about her work at Climatecounsel dot org dot au. You

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Speaker 2: know what, I can let her explain exactly what that is.

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Speaker 2: Enjoy the show. How does one end up as the

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Speaker 2: CEO of Climate Counsel?

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Speaker 3: Do you have the long story of the short story podcast?

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Speaker 4: Man?

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Speaker 1: We have a swig at this water here?

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Speaker 2: Well, I the kid who wrote an environmental slogan at

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Speaker 2: primary school.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I was a kid. I was passionate about everything. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: the environmental stuff, the social justice stuff. And when I

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Speaker 4: was eighteen, I remember being at schoolies and we'd all

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Speaker 4: had a big night, and I went for a walk

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Speaker 4: on the beach and I had my little journal. I

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Speaker 4: wrote down, like what do I want to do by

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Speaker 4: the time I'm thirty, And I'm like, save the world

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Speaker 4: from environmental problems like number one, number two, like a

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Speaker 4: few other things. So I definitely had some ambition as

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Speaker 4: a young person. But then I went to UNI got

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Speaker 4: interested in lots of other things. Then when I was

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Speaker 4: in two thousand and five, I read Tim Flannery's book

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Speaker 4: The Weather Makers while I was hiking in Tazzy in

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Speaker 4: the Styx Valley. If any of your listeners have been there,

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Speaker 4: there's trees that are over four four hundred years old,

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Speaker 4: seventy five meters tall, these sort of ancient forests, And

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Speaker 4: reading this book about how we could fundamentally change our

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Speaker 4: climate in a generation, and I found worse, worse, And

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Speaker 4: just found that juxtaposition of the level of damage we

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Speaker 4: could do versus these beautiful forests that have been there

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Speaker 4: for so long. And went home and worried about it,

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Speaker 4: and worried about it and worried about it. And after

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Speaker 4: about six months of talking about it, my sister said

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Speaker 4: to me, you've got to do something. You can't save

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Speaker 4: the world, but what can we do together? And so

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Speaker 4: we were both at UNI. So we started doing talks at

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Speaker 4: UNI and asking other people to come and give talks

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Speaker 4: at UNI, and started a little group that then became

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Speaker 4: the Australian Youth Climate Coalition. So that was the first

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Speaker 4: organization I started when I was twenty two with a

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Speaker 4: friend of mine, Anna Rose, and that sort of grew

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Speaker 4: and became a big thing. And then I thought I'd

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Speaker 4: be on the climate path for like six months. As

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Speaker 4: soon as people realized that this thing was a big issue,

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Speaker 4: surely we'd deal with it.

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Speaker 3: But here I am nearly twenty years later.

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Speaker 2: Wow, And so with something like being And the Climate

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Speaker 2: Council itself has an interesting history, doesn't it.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 4: The Climate Council was previously the Climate Commission, which was

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Speaker 4: established under the Gillard government to provide accurate information on

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Speaker 4: climate to the general public, so totally independent scientists out

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Speaker 4: there talking to the community. The first act of the

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Speaker 4: Abbott government was to abolish the Climate Commission, and we

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Speaker 4: had a sense that this might happen. He had committed

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Speaker 4: to doing it, as well as gutting everything else on climate.

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Speaker 4: When he would come to power. So four days after

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Speaker 4: the Commission was abolished, we launched the Climate Council. We

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Speaker 4: had nothing, just the Climate counselors who were all experts

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Speaker 4: in their field, and we sort of put our hand

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Speaker 4: out to the public saying will you support us? And

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Speaker 4: it was like this cyclone of love and support Over

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Speaker 4: that week. We raised nearly one point three million dollars

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Speaker 4: in that time from fifteen thousand people putting their hand

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Speaker 4: in their pocket and saying, I think democracy deserves science.

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Speaker 4: I think the community will only be able to make

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Speaker 4: good decisions if we have accurate information. So that was

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Speaker 4: a really amazing time and moment to know that all

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Speaker 4: these people would back to keep telling the story.

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Speaker 2: So the Climate Commission was a government body and it

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Speaker 2: was set up as a way for business, for government,

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Speaker 2: for the general public to have access to This is

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Speaker 2: the accurate this is where we are. This is what

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Speaker 2: the modeling says, both economic and physics, strict science, base facts.

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Speaker 2: All right, if we find something different, we will publish

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Speaker 2: something different. Yeah, this is it. And the first act

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Speaker 2: of the coalition government. The in Australia's the Liberal Party,

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Speaker 2: but they're not very liberal sometimes, but it's that and

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Speaker 2: the country Party or the National Party. The first act

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Speaker 2: was to go la la la, la, la la la.

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Speaker 2: We're not listening, like, we don't like what this means,

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Speaker 2: so we're going.

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Speaker 1: To turn it off.

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Speaker 4: And they didn't just shut the Climate Commission. They also

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Speaker 4: took immediately all of the reports, like three years worth

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Speaker 4: of detailed scientific reports all off the website, shut that

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Speaker 4: all down. Then they started cutting the CSIRO, the Bureau

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Speaker 4: of Meteorology that produces all that climate data, cutting and

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Speaker 4: gagging climate science in that way too, So it had

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Speaker 4: a very chilling effect on climate science and public communications

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Speaker 4: on climate.

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Speaker 2: Are you meaning to do weather punts because you've said

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Speaker 2: a cyclone of effect?

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Speaker 1: I'm loving it.

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Speaker 3: You can tell.

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Speaker 4: I spent all weekend writing stuff about cyclone Alfred, so.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure this isn't.

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Speaker 2: I read this morning that Trump has fired the head

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Speaker 2: the chief scientist of NASA, which, while people may believe

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Speaker 2: is oh so what it's like rockets and shit, NASA

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Speaker 2: is one of the leading providers of very very detailed

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Speaker 2: satellite imagery, you know, topographic imagery, see temperature details. So

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Speaker 2: this is the thing is we don't want people to

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Speaker 2: question what we're doing.

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Speaker 1: I'm assuming that's what is behind it? Is that what

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Speaker 1: it is?

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I assumed so, Like cutting climate science information

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Speaker 4: is disastrous. Like it's not just the US that realizes

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Speaker 4: that data. The whole world relies on NASA's data and so,

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Speaker 4: but if you don't have.

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Speaker 3: The data, how do you tell the story?

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Speaker 4: And that was certainly what the coalition tried to do

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Speaker 4: in Australia to silence the climate scientists so that we

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Speaker 4: wouldn't have the information so people wouldn't understand what was

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Speaker 4: happening around them.

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Speaker 2: We wouldn't do such a thing with I don't know

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Speaker 2: what else involves thermodynamics. We wouldn't do such a thing

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Speaker 2: with the flammability of clothes. Yeah, all right, hang on,

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Speaker 2: we don't want to get this child's pajama anywhere near

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Speaker 2: a heater because the science has shown that it will

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Speaker 2: ignite because it's got petrochemical in it will stick to

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Speaker 2: their skin and they'll line up.

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Speaker 1: In a burns wood.

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Speaker 2: Science is involved there, but we would never go not

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Speaker 2: taking all those labels off.

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Speaker 1: Would never do that. It's bananas that we do this.

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Speaker 4: It is, and there's a lot of research that shows

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Speaker 4: that the coal, oil and gas lobby have used the

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Speaker 4: same tactics as the tobacco industry. So the tobacco industry

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Speaker 4: was very successful at frustrating efforts to regulate smoking, and

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Speaker 4: you know, they're still successful in preventing efforts to regulate vaping.

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Speaker 4: So trying to prevent governments from regulating things that harm people.

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Speaker 4: And that's true in the chemicals industry and other things

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Speaker 4: as well. There's many instances of industry training to silence scientists,

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Speaker 4: which is why it's so important that government's fund science.

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Speaker 2: So the people on the Climate Commission, they were at

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Speaker 2: the sack, but the same crew basically reformed as the

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Speaker 2: Climate Council, that's.

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Speaker 4: Right, So the crew of experts, all of the staff

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Speaker 4: were worse act as well.

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Speaker 3: But the experts all said, well, we'll do this for

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Speaker 3: free for six months to keep this thing going.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: And within a.

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Speaker 4: Couple literally a couple of weeks, we'd gone from nothing

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Speaker 4: and all of our information on the website being deleted

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Speaker 4: to then setting up a new website, setting up a

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Speaker 4: new organization. We downloaded all of the reports, so we

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Speaker 4: uploaded them all again and started producing reports the next

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Speaker 4: week that we'd started to continue that process of making

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Speaker 4: sure the public has access to information and actually being

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Speaker 4: outside of the sort of government ort bit has given

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Speaker 4: us a lot of freedom. So the amount of content

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Speaker 4: that we can put out on social media, the amount

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Speaker 4: of we support, a whole range of diverse voices to

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Speaker 4: speak on climate change. So there's been a range of

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Speaker 4: other things that we can do now much larger than

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Speaker 4: we were as a government body.

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Speaker 2: How did it feel to have that amount of public

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Speaker 2: support and what would have been a very I can't

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Speaker 2: imagine how desperate and frustrating those days in between could

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Speaker 2: have been.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, and it was very frustrating. That period of

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Speaker 4: sort of twenty eleven to twenty thirteen, there was a

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Speaker 4: Lenina period and it rained a lot like some catastrophic

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Speaker 4: range during that time, but climate change had been so

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Speaker 4: associated with drought and heat that people didn't understand the

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Speaker 4: link to intense flooding. So people like Alan Jones and

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Speaker 4: others said, oh, well it's raining, so climate changesn't happening.

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Speaker 3: So public support had dropped.

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Speaker 4: Significantly at that time, and so and climate sciences been cut.

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Speaker 4: It was the worst time to be on the climate

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Speaker 4: advocacy side and pushing for change.

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Speaker 2: And yet I wonder if I'm from Brisbane and I

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Speaker 2: remember getting a call from my brother how are I said, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm just standing up here at augrond Flower watching the

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Speaker 2: river with a bunch of other people, because he lived nearby.

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Speaker 2: And there was an old concrete much like just over

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Speaker 2: there in Piermont, there's a concrete factory right on the room.

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Speaker 2: They would float the barges up and down right to

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Speaker 2: the CBD to pump the concrete. And there was this

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Speaker 2: wharf built for these huge concrete bardges and carrying hundreds

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Speaker 2: of tons of the thing.

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Speaker 1: And this wolf had been there for quite a long time.

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Speaker 1: It was a huge thing.

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Speaker 2: He said, I just watched that wharf, which probably fifty

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Speaker 2: meters long and a floating thing. I just watched to

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Speaker 2: tear away, disappear under water jeez, for about one hundred

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Speaker 2: and twenty two hundred meters and then basically porpoise up

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Speaker 2: out of the water and slam into the Victoria Bridge.

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Speaker 2: Think about it, And he just said to me, never

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Speaker 2: forget water doesn't compress, right, think about the forces required

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Speaker 2: to submerge such a.

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Speaker 1: Thing like that.

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Speaker 2: Is that that is the level of water that was

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Speaker 2: coming down the Brisbane River in twenty eleven. Thankfully they

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Speaker 2: learned their Lesson and they let out Wivenho Dam before

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Speaker 2: Alfred shoed up. They let it down, but they hadn't

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Speaker 2: done that at that time, and there's nowhere for the

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Speaker 2: water to go.

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Speaker 4: Well, that's one of the big challenges when you're getting

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Speaker 4: extremes that you've never seen before. You can do preparation,

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Speaker 4: but sometimes you don't know what you don't know, and

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Speaker 4: you're not prepared for the level of change.

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Speaker 3: And you know, we saw that.

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Speaker 4: During Black Summer, the fires that were started by basically

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Speaker 4: fire coming down from the sky like pirate convective storms,

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Speaker 4: where you've got the firefront, but then way ahead of it,

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Speaker 4: you're getting these sort of fire tornadoes that come out

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Speaker 4: of the sky.

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Speaker 3: Like that's not something that.

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Speaker 4: Most people have ever witnessed if they'd seen a bushfire before.

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Speaker 2: It was the static of all the stuff in the

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Speaker 2: wind creates so much build up that it discharges as

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Speaker 2: a lightning yeah bolt, which then ignites ahead of it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so're terrifying.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the conditions in Black Summer were Like Greg Mullins,

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Speaker 4: who's a former fire chief that runs Emergency Leaders for

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Speaker 4: Climate Action, His stories of Black Summer are just harrowing.

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Speaker 4: Like he talks about the areas on the south coast

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Speaker 4: where he saw lawns burning at three meters high, just

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Speaker 4: everything like underground was on fire. All at the same time,

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Speaker 4: he saw kangaroos who are usually way in front of

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Speaker 4: the firefront being burnt in the fire because they couldn't

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Speaker 4: escape in time, because they couldn't move fast enough.

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Speaker 3: So these things.

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Speaker 4: That is a firefighter, he's been fighting fires for fifty years.

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Speaker 4: He just was harrowed. And I've never seen anything like it, Like,

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Speaker 4: how do we prepare for these sort of things when

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Speaker 4: you just don't know how bad it's going to get

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Speaker 4: so quickly.

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Speaker 2: I've met Greg's We've got an interesting story and that

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Speaker 2: how often he tried get in front of our leadership

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Speaker 2: and how often he was denied to the point where

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Speaker 2: he's like, I'm getting out of this and I'm because

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Speaker 2: they're not going to.

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Speaker 1: Listen like that? What is it about? What have you

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Speaker 1: guys identified?

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Speaker 2: Like on a lot of is the research you've got

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Speaker 2: to do is also got to be psychological, like what

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Speaker 2: have you identified about our leadership that.

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Speaker 1: Makes them what is silence and not want to know

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Speaker 1: or not listen?

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Speaker 4: There is a lot of research on that about how

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Speaker 4: if you get facts that don't adhere with your worldview,

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Speaker 4: you'd prefer to shut them out rather than alter your worldview.

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Speaker 4: And so if you're very dedicated to burning call alin

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Speaker 4: gas forever. But also if you say that it's just

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Speaker 4: a greening conspiracy, any information you just file away into

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Speaker 4: something else. So with Cyclone Alfred that just happened, we

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Speaker 4: saw a whole bunch of people saying, oh, well, you

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Speaker 4: know cyclones have been this.

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Speaker 3: Fast south before.

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Speaker 4: Sure, they have been that fars south before, but that

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Speaker 4: doesn't change the fact that this particular cyclone has been

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Speaker 4: in fluence by climate change. Whether that's the fact that

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Speaker 4: the ocean is twenty centimeters higher than.

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Speaker 1: It used to be.

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Speaker 4: That's a lot of water sloshing around that can come

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Speaker 4: now into the coast. Whether it's the fact that the

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Speaker 4: ocean was the hottest in recorded temperature in the Coral

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Speaker 4: Sea where this cyclone formed, and that as the water

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Speaker 4: temperature rises, that means storms can be sustained as they

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Speaker 4: come further south. So all of these factors are just

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Speaker 4: in front of us now, and we're seeing climate change

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Speaker 4: really large. But we often whatever the extreme weather event is,

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Speaker 4: we have someone say, hey, you can't talk about climate

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Speaker 4: change right now this event is happening. It just makes

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Speaker 4: no sense at all to me. Like if you have

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Speaker 4: a car accident and someone was speeding, Hey, that's a

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Speaker 4: good time to talk about speeding, because that tells people

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Speaker 4: that this is a dangerous thing to do. Like a

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Speaker 4: good time to talk about climate change and the fact

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Speaker 4: that polluting from colil and gas is heating up the

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Speaker 4: global climate making extreme weather worse. Good time to talk

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Speaker 4: about that during these events, so that communities, emergency services

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Speaker 4: are doctors, they all know, hey, this is getting worse.

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Speaker 4: We need to prepare for this, and also we want

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Speaker 4: someone to do something about it.

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Speaker 2: When it comes to climate resilience in the way that

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Speaker 2: people and you know, the suburbs have to handle what's coming.

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Speaker 2: What does each party, well each party there's more than

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Speaker 2: two parties in Australia, But what do their policies look

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Speaker 2: like when it comes to things like I don't know,

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Speaker 2: housing policy and housing standards and things like this.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm really worried about communities that are in the

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Speaker 4: front lines of where these disasters can get a lot worse.

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Speaker 4: Like Cyclone Alfred, for instance, we were fortunate that it

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Speaker 4: moves so slowly, which was partly due to climate change

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Speaker 4: that we had a lot of notice and communities could prepare.

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Speaker 4: But we won't always get that amount of notice for

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Speaker 4: extreme weather events. And there's a lot of areas that

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Speaker 4: whether it's in sort of low lying like in Sydney

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Speaker 4: for instance, around windsor or suburbs like that, but there's

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Speaker 4: also fringing suburbs to the bush around, whether that's in

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Speaker 4: Melbourne or Sydney. Just look at the La fires and

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Speaker 4: how quickly they moved. When you get these very unusual

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Speaker 4: conditions that you haven't seen before as a consequence of climate,

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Speaker 4: like those who are in winter, you you know, community

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Speaker 4: it's very hard for communities to prepare in advance for

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Speaker 4: those things. So I'm worried that we will have to

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Speaker 4: have some communities that essentially retreat, that can't live in

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Speaker 4: the areas that they have once lived. And that is

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Speaker 4: a really difficult conversation. And I don't think governments are

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Speaker 4: looking that far ahead, but it won't take long before

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Speaker 4: we're actually there.

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Speaker 1: Has anyone got a policy on climate resort, Well.

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Speaker 4: There's certainly I'm not an expert in that area, but

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Speaker 4: certainly Labour's done some work in that space, particularly on

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Speaker 4: taking up the recommendations from the bushfire or a commission

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Speaker 4: and other things. But there's a lot more to do,

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Speaker 4: and particularly around local councils for instance, have done in

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Speaker 4: many cases they're modeling around what it looks like in

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Speaker 4: terms of flood risk, for instance, but that information is

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Speaker 4: not all public. In most cases, it's not public, so

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Speaker 4: people are not necessarily aware of their risk, and in

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Speaker 4: many cases they don't necessarily want to know because it

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Speaker 4: affects your property valuation as well. So we've got a

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Speaker 4: bunch of complexity coming. If you tell people actually, now

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Speaker 4: you're in a flood zone, you can't get insured and

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Speaker 4: you can't sell your house, well you might not want

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Speaker 4: to know that information, but we need to because we

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Speaker 4: need to be preparing for what's coming down the line.

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Speaker 4: So there's a lot of difficult conversations for us to

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Speaker 4: have as a community. It goes for flood, it goes

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Speaker 4: for fire, it goes through drought.

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Speaker 1: It's happening if you placed around Australia. I read about

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Speaker 1: one that happened.

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Speaker 2: I believe it was on the South coast, like a

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Speaker 2: place that it was called Millionaires Row because it was

435
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Speaker 2: essentially built on a sandbar, right, and the Shell Harbor

436
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Speaker 2: Council put out the report, and the people that live there,

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Speaker 2: I think we shall ub didn't very much like what

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Speaker 2: that report did for their property values, and so then

439
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Speaker 2: essentially lobbied and changed the numbers. They've got a different

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Speaker 2: They've got a different person to come and do the report,

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Speaker 2: and they found well, you know it's not actually going

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Speaker 2: to be like that.

443
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:15,400
Speaker 1: We your property is still.

444
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 4: Fun yeah, which is just underlignes the importance of independent science.

445
00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 4: Doesn't it like you can have science is can be

446
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 4: manipulated in the wrong conditions, and so having independent groups

447
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,040
Speaker 4: that can provide accurate information on this stuff is so

448
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 4: critical to individuals, communities being able to make good decisions.

449
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 2: There must be one of the big challenges of what

450
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 2: you do, particularly after what we saw how jiggered people's

451
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 2: trust was through COVID. How our ability, well the general

452
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 2: publics as a nation, our ability to understand complexity, and

453
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:56,920
Speaker 2: not only complexity but also fallibility in scientific results led

454
00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:02,160
Speaker 2: to this one person had an adverse effect. Therefore all

455
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 2: of it is bad. It must be difficult as a

456
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 2: science communicator trying to have that conversation around Yes, it

457
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 2: is this is the best idea we've got as far

458
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 2: as what is happening. But there is an element of unknowing.

459
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:20,679
Speaker 2: And when the unknowing is found, it doesn't mean that

460
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 2: everything else isn't happening. It doesn't mean that everything we

461
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,840
Speaker 2: do doesn't matter, like being written off because something anomally

462
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 2: shows up must be really.

463
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 4: Hard, yeah, And that's really important about how you communicate

464
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 4: around an extreme event. There's usually a number of elements

465
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 4: of it that the science is super certain in terms

466
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 4: of how climate influences it, and then there might be

467
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,400
Speaker 4: some other elements that the science is not quite settled yet,

468
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,680
Speaker 4: And so you can have scientists having a debate very

469
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 4: relevantly about one aspect of an event, but it doesn't

470
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 4: cancel out the fact that this event has been made

471
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 4: worse as a confluence of climate change. So, to give

472
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,160
Speaker 4: an example, on cyclone, alfred I mentioned that the water

473
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,479
Speaker 4: temperature off in the Coral Sea was super hot, hottest

474
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 4: on record month after month, so that drives the intensity

475
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 4: of the storm. Then it's riding on higher seas, so

476
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 4: when you get those big waves, swells, storm surges, you

477
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 4: have more water sloshing around that can come in and

478
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 4: in and date people. The rainfalls the other big ticket item.

479
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 4: So you get a hotter atmosphere, you get more evaporation,

480
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,159
Speaker 4: kind of like in a hot shower. You've got a

481
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 4: lot of steam in the air, you've got more water

482
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,959
Speaker 4: available to dump on a community. And we had that

483
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,679
Speaker 4: cyclone move really slowly, which is one of the aspects

484
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 4: of climate. We're seeing winds in the Equator region sort

485
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 4: of slowing down, so that storm there's longer over each

486
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 4: area to dump that rain on top of a community.

487
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 3: But the biggest question was, well, why did it hit Brisbane?

488
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 3: Why was it so far south?

489
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 4: And there is a lot of evidence now that cyclones

490
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 4: will probably track further south because the water is getting

491
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 4: warm and down south so it can sustain a cyclone.

492
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 4: But this cyclone was also influenced by by that because

493
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 4: it was sustained, but it was in influenced by a

494
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,679
Speaker 4: big low pressure system over Australia that sort of pulled

495
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 4: it down. So you have this debate about why did

496
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 4: it hit Brisbane. Well, it's not as much about exactly

497
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 4: where it's hit, it's all of these other aspects that

498
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 4: when it hit it had far more rain to dump,

499
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 4: It had this higher sea to erode all of those

500
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 4: beaches and damage more properties. And actually we are more

501
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 4: likely to get these things hitting Southway communities and not

502
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 4: expecting them. They're not prepared for them. So that's the

503
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,879
Speaker 4: sort of complexity when you're communicating all of these things,

504
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 4: is that the media compensation can get fixated on one

505
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 4: element when my job is to try and get people

506
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 4: looking at the bigger picture of the totality of the event.

507
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 2: We've been talking a bit about cycling Alfri today because

508
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 2: it's the most recent extreme weather event by one of

509
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 2: my brothers in Brisbane was using four separate rain apps

510
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 2: that used four separate models to give him four separate

511
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 2: answers about what was going to happen that night. When

512
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,639
Speaker 2: we talk about the ability of climate modeling and stuff

513
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 2: like that, like how how do you how do you

514
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 2: approach that when you know these things sometimes don't come out,

515
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 2: Like last night I played poker with the same guys forever.

516
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 2: We're all over the place. So it's on zoom now.

517
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 2: But one of those in Brisbane is like they keep

518
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 2: calling an extropical cyclone.

519
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:16,360
Speaker 1: It was rain Alfred.

520
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,439
Speaker 2: It was like he's so upset that there's been so

521
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 2: much banging on about this thing. It's just a bunch

522
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 2: of rain and it missed him. He was like, it

523
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 2: wasn't that big a deal, and that for me is

524
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 2: a bit. Well that sucks a bit because now he

525
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,640
Speaker 2: has been a bit marked by get ready to get ready.

526
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 2: This is going to be wasn't for him father as

527
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 2: it was for him. It wasn't like, how do you

528
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 2: you know they said it was going to be this

529
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 2: and it wasn't. It didn't turn out the victory. How

530
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 2: do you deal with the inconsistencies in the modeling and

531
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 2: what actually happens.

532
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, the first thing is that we need to

533
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 4: make sure the Bureau of Meteorology is really well funded

534
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 4: in its climate science and its predictions, because as the

535
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 4: climate changes, the whole system is becoming more chaotic and unpredictable,

536
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 4: so it is harder to do the immediate weather projections

537
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 4: than it has been in the past, and just the

538
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,199
Speaker 4: interactions of systems, like I think when we had an

539
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 4: El Nino a couple of years ago, everyone expects it

540
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:14,919
Speaker 4: to be hot and dry because that's generally what El

541
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 4: Ninos have, but the ocean temperatures were really hot, so

542
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 4: there was a lot more moisture in the air, so

543
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 4: Sydney Brisbane got a lot of water. So things are

544
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 4: out of kilter from what might have been expected in

545
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:27,959
Speaker 4: the past.

546
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 3: So the past.

547
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 4: Models don't give us the best understanding of what's going

548
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 4: to happen in the future. So a lot of that

549
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 4: will be hopefully, you know, the scientists will work really

550
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 4: hard and.

551
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 3: Be able to tell us as accurately as they can

552
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 3: what's going to happen.

553
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 2: We all like to feel right, and if we don't

554
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 2: say it out loud, there's there's an I told you

555
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 2: so insiders. There'd be people that you work with scientists

556
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 2: who are older. I'm fifty, but there'd be people older

557
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 2: than me who hate the fact that they're right because

558
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 2: the stuff that they write in reports twenty five years

559
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,400
Speaker 2: ago is what we're seeing, unfortunately, way faster than they

560
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 2: had written it out. Yeah.

561
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:05,360
Speaker 3: Well, I think there's.

562
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 4: A lot of sadness in the climate scientist community, people

563
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 4: that say, what more could I have done? I tried

564
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 4: really hard to get this message out. I tried to

565
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 4: tell everyone, but they didn't listen. I think it's really

566
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 4: tricky to be a scientist. Scientists were often, as we

567
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 4: talked about, told to shut up. They were defunded, they

568
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 4: were told if they were spreading this information that they

569
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 4: wouldn't get the next grant. It was very clear, particularly

570
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 4: during the ten years of the Coalition government, that you

571
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 4: weren't necessarily going to get those scientific grants if you

572
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 4: were applying on the wrong things.

573
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 2: The thing that I've found personally in my communication with people,

574
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 2: and I can resonate very clearly with all of that

575
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 2: grief and of the sadness and terror because I've been

576
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 2: through all of it. When I have conversations with people

577
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 2: who are on the yeah, nut's not happening, I found

578
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 2: that the economic argument is a thing that's starts to

579
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 2: get people. You know, when I start talking about insurance

580
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,239
Speaker 2: going on holiday, Sydney put might only be open for

581
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 2: one hundred days a year, you know, because of wind

582
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 2: and storm swells and stuff like this.

583
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: Like there's things that will impact your.

584
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 2: Life that we can change right now that will you know,

585
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 2: actually be far cheaper in.

586
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: The long run for all of us. You know, I'm

587
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 1: you know, I'm a capitalist.

588
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 2: I'm here in a commercial venture trying to make money,

589
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 2: and I think investing is a great idea and I

590
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 2: would like to see my investments pay out. I wouldn't

591
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 2: want to be investing in something that the world is

592
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 2: not going to want, particularly a product like coal. The

593
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 2: world is not going to want it in twenty years.

594
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 2: What have you learned about rather than you know, the

595
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 2: doom and gloom thing does tend to shut people off,

596
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 2: and I understand, I get that. What have you learned

597
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 2: about the benefits of speaking about the economic side of things?

598
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think telling the story of hope is so important,

599
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 4: particularly at this current time when they're so many things

600
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 4: to worry about in the world. So we try and

601
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 4: do a lot of sharing about the progress that has

602
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,719
Speaker 4: been made. And for instance, over ninety percent of Australians

603
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 4: don't know that actually forty percent of our power comes

604
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 4: from renewables. Now that the sun and the wind where

605
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 4: the sunny is country in the world were one of

606
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 4: the wind is and we're actually empowering ourselves with that

607
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 4: good stuff. Now four million people have panels on their

608
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 4: roof and those households are utilizing the sun every day

609
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 4: and they've made the decision partly because it's going to

610
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 4: save the money, but also because it's doing their bit

611
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 4: as well, So it's been a win win. So there's

612
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 4: so much evidence now that we can do both. We

613
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 4: can be slashing our climate pollution but at the same

614
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 4: time having a range of economic benefits. The other thing

615
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 4: that I often bring up with people is the fact

616
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 4: that our coal fire generators old, they're aging out anyway,

617
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 4: most of them will be shut midway through next decades

618
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 4: and ten years, and then in fifteen years basically all

619
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 4: them will be shut.

620
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 3: So that's before you get a wat.

621
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 4: Of nuclear energy, for instance, and we would have to

622
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 4: replace our energy system regardless of climate change. So renewables

623
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 4: is the cheapest source of new power. So even if

624
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 4: we're in a world that climate change doesn't exist, renewables

625
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:17,719
Speaker 4: would still make sense for us anyway.

626
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 2: So which brings us to what our leaders are doing

627
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 2: at the moment. You mentioned nuclear, And we're in an

628
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 2: election cycle right now. When you look at the two

629
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 2: major parties in Australia, Label which is largely the kind

630
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 2: of center left, and the Coalition, which is anywhere between

631
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 2: the center right and further, how are they doing when

632
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 2: it comes to the policies they're pitching at the punter.

633
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, what we've seen under the Labor government, I

634
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 4: think it's good to look back at the record and say, well,

635
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 4: they've done a number of really important things. They put

636
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 4: a lot of money into renewables, into batteries, They're putting

637
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 4: money into green steel, green hydrogen, these new industries for

638
00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 4: Australia's future. They have also regulated fossil fuels to a degree.

639
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 4: They've introduced something called the Safeguard mechanism which basically regulates

640
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 4: over two hundred of the biggest polluters in Australia that

641
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 4: have not been regulated for their climate pollution before. But

642
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 4: Labor is still approving new fossil fuel projects. So they've

643
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 4: got a number of ticks, but they've got some crosses too.

644
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 4: And fossil fuel exports, for instance, Australia is one of

645
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 4: the biggest exporters of gas and coal and that's just

646
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 4: going great guns under Labor. So then you look at

647
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 4: the coalition. The Coalition still has no policy to cut

648
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 4: climate pollution. Their nuclear policy is an energy policy, but

649
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 4: it wouldn't be bringing on any new energy until at

650
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 4: least the twenty forties. So the Climate Change Authority has

651
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 4: analyzed that and found that that would mean two billion

652
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 4: tons of more climate pollution. So their policy is actually

653
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 4: for climate pollution to increase, for extreme weather events to intensify.

654
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 4: I think often political parties have got away with doing

655
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 4: nothing and it not being identified having consequences. But doing

656
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 4: nothing is a recipe for more and more climate disasters.

657
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 4: I think we need to make that really clear in

658
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 4: this electoral context.

659
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 2: The nuclear thing, and I'm not a purpoer of nuclear energy.

660
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 2: It's safer than coal, like nuclear is incredibly safe. The

661
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 2: people who died in the Fukushima accident died in the evacuation,

662
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 2: no one, no one was hurt, and the reactor there

663
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 2: are you know, there are consequences of nuclear power. There are,

664
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 2: but it's unbelievably efficient and it's a real tragedy that

665
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 2: is so expensive and so incredibly polluting because it's it's

666
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 2: it's brilliant. And the other really shitty part about it

667
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 2: is you can manufacture those how many forty percent of

668
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 2: Australian households have sold, there's four million.

669
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 3: Four million houses.

670
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's say on an average that's four forty million

671
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 2: solar panels on average, probably more. You can manufacture them

672
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 2: in one meter chunks, and you can just replicate that

673
00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 2: bang bang bang bang bang, and every time that you

674
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 2: have efficiency upgrade, then you get two more percent of

675
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 2: the next two hundred fifty thousand, and you can just

676
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 2: get more and more efficient in a modular way. But

677
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 2: nuclear reactors are bespoke things built only for that site,

678
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 2: only for that place, And the one that you build

679
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:15,439
Speaker 2: in Wyala does not look like the one you build

680
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 2: in Rockhampton, and you can't swap parts, and the same

681
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 2: text can't fix both. It's unbelievably expensive.

682
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 4: Like, it's extremely complicated because we don't have a nuclear industry,

683
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 4: like if you weren't starting from scratch, like some countries

684
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 4: obviously have a nuclear industry that's been there for a

685
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,280
Speaker 4: long time, and you're starting to try and build another

686
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 4: nuclear power station. It still costs a lot of money

687
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 4: and it still takes a long time. But in the

688
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 4: Australian context, where obviously we're starting from ground zero, it

689
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,720
Speaker 4: could take extremely long time and costs an absolute bomb.

690
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:49,359
Speaker 3: There's another pun.

691
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 1: But god, you're good at this.

692
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 3: You have got the pun going out today.

693
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 4: But yeah, and in the meantime, we could have powered

694
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 4: the country with renew So I think that's the that's

695
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 4: the thing to focus on, is what do we do

696
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 4: this decade? Yeah, like we're not talking about the twenty forties.

697
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,320
Speaker 4: Let's talk about the twenty twenties that we're in now

698
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 4: and then preparing for the twenty thirties. And if we

699
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,479
Speaker 4: don't slash our climate pollution now, if we then wait

700
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 4: another fifteen years, we're really stuffed. There's no two ways

701
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 4: about it. Like we have signers are told us that

702
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 4: a lot of times, like do it by this time,

703
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 4: or it's going to get bad. Oh well, okay, really

704
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 4: really do it by this time, or it's going to

705
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,839
Speaker 4: get really really bad. And the signers are you know,

706
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:35,839
Speaker 4: they're at their limit when we're seeing it now all

707
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 4: around us constantly.

708
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 2: I'm aware that people listening to this show they know

709
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 2: what I'm about. There's probably people who are listening to

710
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 2: this that are not climate skeptics. Yet there are people.

711
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 1: In their lives.

712
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 2: They might have a mum or dad who's you know,

713
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 2: longtime coalition voter, da da da.

714
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: What would you say to them?

715
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 2: What's the intel they need to know around speaking to

716
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 2: their folks or speaking to the people and at their.

717
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: Work about committing to build.

718
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 2: However, many small module directors which don't actually exist yet anywhere.

719
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,879
Speaker 2: What's the economic impact of that on us as a nation.

720
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I think the first thing is what do

721
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 4: you say to the parents' grandparents that are I think

722
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 4: climate change isn't happening. My advice to people is don't

723
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 4: worry about it. We don't need to convince every single

724
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 4: person in Australia that this is the biggest issue that

725
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 4: we're facing. We just need to convince most people. And

726
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,359
Speaker 4: there's less than five percent of people now that don't

727
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 4: think climate change.

728
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 3: Is an issue.

729
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 4: So people believe that climate change is an issue. We're

730
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 4: certainly now in the phase of how do we solve it?

731
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,839
Speaker 4: And that's where we get onto the economics. And when

732
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 4: you then ask someone about nuclear or what the solutions

733
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 4: are and someone says, oh, well, nuclear sounds like a

734
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 4: great solution. The most powerful thing we find in our

735
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 4: research is to come back to well, the timing of

736
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 4: it that all of our coal will be retired between

737
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 4: now and twenty forty before we'll get a lot of

738
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 4: nuclear energy. So what do we do in the meantime.

739
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 4: So nuclear isn't a solution for the climate crisis or

740
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 4: the energy challenges that we face, So what is the

741
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 4: solution in the introim? So if it's not solar and wind.

742
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 4: Is it more coal? Well, that's exorbitantly expensive as well

743
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 4: as being massively polluting gas. If you use gas for

744
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 4: burning for our household usage, not just for our stoves

745
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,760
Speaker 4: and stuff, but our lights and everything, that's massively expensive

746
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 4: as well. And it does wouldn't make any sense. It's

747
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:38,959
Speaker 4: not what we do in Australia. We don't burn gas

748
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 4: for that sort of purpose. We use it in a

749
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 4: range of other purposes like cooking.

750
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 3: So it actually takes.

751
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 4: You back to renewables again, like, if our coal's retiring,

752
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 4: why wouldn't we use the cheapest source of power that

753
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 4: is readily available that we have the most in the world.

754
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 2: And the answer I will then play the devil's advocate

755
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 2: and go, what is the answer for when the wind

756
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 2: doesn't blow, when the sun.

757
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 4: Doesn't try one, Well, there's a number of different answers

758
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 4: to that. The first thing I didn't know when I

759
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 4: started really researching this a few years ago was that

760
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 4: wind is often blowing in the nighttime, and so when

761
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 4: the sun's not shining, the wind's often blowing. Then there's

762
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 4: a question of well, habit if either is not working

763
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 4: at that time, we have some big batteries already in

764
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 4: Australia that are soaking up that sunshine and wind that

765
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 4: can use them at other times. But we also need

766
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 4: other solutions like pumped hydro for instance. So that's basically

767
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 4: a type of battery. You pump water up a hill

768
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 4: and then you let it down when you need the electricity.

769
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 2: It's a hydro electric dam except for a river at

770
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 2: the bottom there's a pipe with a pump that puts

771
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 2: the water back up in the dam.

772
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's pretty much it.

773
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 4: It just goes round and round. We're at the point

774
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,359
Speaker 4: now where we are delivering big batteries around Australia, which

775
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 4: will be awesome, but it's also the way.

776
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 3: That we manage our grid.

777
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 4: There's a lot of discussion around smart grids and how

778
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 4: we use our electricity, people having community batteries, their own batteries,

779
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 4: how electric cars contribute because they've got big batteries in

780
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 4: them as well. So there's a whole range of different solutions.

781
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 4: And what I rely on is the Australian Energy Market Operator,

782
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 4: which they're the experts in all of this detailed energy modeling.

783
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 4: They tell us that we could be near one hundred

784
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 4: percent renewables by twenty thirty.

785
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 2: And these are the people that they set the price

786
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 2: of what are what costs? They set the price of energy.

787
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 2: And so I learned this the other day, which blew

788
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 2: my mind. You probably know the answer to this. How

789
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 2: many days last year did New South Wales have a

790
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 2: negative energy per killer what? Which means there's too much

791
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 2: power in the grid and it's now going to cost

792
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,800
Speaker 2: you money to export power.

793
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,240
Speaker 3: Are you going to give me a multiple choice, because

794
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:48,959
Speaker 3: I don't know.

795
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 2: Well, you probably were over two hundred days last year

796
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 2: New South Wales had a negative energy price, which meant

797
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 2: there's too much energy in the grid and that energy

798
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 2: had to just go out into.

799
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: The Yeah, it was four terrible, it's huge. We wasted

800
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 1: four terror lots of energy last year.

801
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,720
Speaker 2: That's three hundred million dollars of power just went begging

802
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 2: because and that is just banannas that here we are

803
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,359
Speaker 2: getting crushed by energy bills and there's that much free

804
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 2: energy just being splurted out.

805
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 1: Into the ether.

806
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 2: The investment in storage seems like such a no brainer,

807
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 2: having pathways for as you mentioned, for just punters, for

808
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 2: communities to go well, how can we store this ourselves?

809
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 2: And it's also energy storage is also a very interesting

810
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 2: way to help former mining communities get involved. There's a

811
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 2: company I've heard about. It works in like a big

812
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 2: mining town where there's this pit that's three kilometers down

813
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 2: and essentially it's just this massive like one hundred ton

814
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 2: weight or something. It just goes straight down on a

815
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 2: winch and in the daytime they pump it up, they

816
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,360
Speaker 2: winch it up and then just let it go. But

817
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 2: because mining is very energy intensive, all our infrastructure, all

818
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 2: the power transmission is already going to the mind sight.

819
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 2: But now it's simple enough to just the way electronics work,

820
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 2: just banga. And as far as job creation, as far

821
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 2: as transitioning those people out of these industries. That is

822
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 2: the thing I find like really really sad about a

823
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 2: lot of this is there are how do I put this,

824
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 2: there's people in our government who sometimes cause play as

825
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 2: you know, you know, I'm a mine person, and then

826
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 2: you know, I've seen photos of some with.

827
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,399
Speaker 1: Coal dust on their faces, like on my heart. Man

828
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: talking about cold jobs.

829
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:38,320
Speaker 2: But the fact is that a lot of those mining

830
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 2: jobs that are automated, there's drone trucks driving up and down.

831
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 2: There's not really that many jobs. But this is an

832
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 2: industry selling a product that the world is not going

833
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 2: to want, and there's thousands of people that we're leaving behind.

834
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 2: But those thousands of people have lives in those towns

835
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 2: with communities. What are our governments doing in this election

836
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 2: coming up, what are our governments doing about transitioning people

837
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:01,320
Speaker 2: out of those industries.

838
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that is exactly right.

839
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 4: There's got to be a transition plan and communities in

840
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 4: those areas well aware that coal is not going to

841
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 4: be there forever. And it's different in different places around

842
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 4: the country, of course, and in some places there are

843
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 4: renewable jobs that people can go to and we have

844
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 4: all the energy infrastructure there to take the electrons to

845
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 4: other places. So rolling out large gall renewables, batteries, et

846
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 4: cetera can make sense in some of those places. And

847
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 4: in other places where there is an industrial base, we

848
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 4: can be electrifying industries as well. So there's the Albanese

849
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:41,280
Speaker 4: government has been talking about their commitment to green steel

850
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:42,720
Speaker 4: and green iron, et cetera.

851
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 3: There is green aluminum.

852
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 4: There's opportunities for Australia to build out those industries because

853
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 4: if we can have the cleanest, cheapest power in the world,

854
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 4: because we've got the most sunshine and a huge amount

855
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 4: of space and wind. We can be exporting these industries

856
00:42:58,040 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 4: to the world, and not just taking the stuff out

857
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 4: of the ground, but also manufacturing some of the products

858
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 4: that then we can be exporting as well, which gives

859
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 4: another dimension to what Australia can be doing in the

860
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 4: twenty first century.

861
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 2: We speak about this in a week where the steel

862
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 2: tariffs the US has just imposed upon Australia come into effect,

863
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 2: where like by the time this airs or people might

864
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 2: be listening to ten ten years, don't know what happens,

865
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 2: but our steel exports and our aluminum exports are.

866
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 1: Imperiled.

867
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 2: Yet the incredible benefit that doesn't really much get talked

868
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 2: about is that whoever gets to unlock green steel gets

869
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 2: to become the foundry.

870
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,959
Speaker 1: Of the world. Yeah, there are.

871
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 2: Very strict import regulations in Europe around a better carbon

872
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:45,399
Speaker 2: and the amount of carbon that it took to make

873
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 2: the thing. Yes it is, and whoever has the cleanest

874
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 2: product will have the cheapest product, which will then be

875
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 2: the thing. I think we currently export something like seventy

876
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 2: billion dollars in iron ore. The green steel market is

877
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 2: projected to be someone like seven hundred billion dollars. It's

878
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 2: a ten x on that. Where are we with green steel?

879
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 2: How far along are we? Are we going to lose

880
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 2: this race because this is the thing we stand to

881
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 2: lose if we don't act, we stand to lose economically.

882
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 2: We built our country on digging stuff up and selling it.

883
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 2: If we don't have something to replace that, we're cooked.

884
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, well absolutely see.

885
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:23,439
Speaker 4: Hey, well, Australia has this huge challenge in the twenty

886
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 4: first century to think longer term about what we are

887
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 4: going to export and who we're going to be. And

888
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 4: fossil fuels have been a big part of our export

889
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,320
Speaker 4: industries and they certainly won't be forever as the world

890
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 4: is transitioning away from those energy sources, and it is

891
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 4: an important question as to what they're replaced with. And

892
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 4: some of that can be green things that come from

893
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:49,879
Speaker 4: green energy, whether it's green steel, green aluminium, It could

894
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,280
Speaker 4: be hydrogen. It could also be there's projects, for instance,

895
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 4: about exporting our sun into Asia through some cable for instance,

896
00:44:57,560 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 4: So we need to try a lot of different things.

897
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 4: The race is certainly on for each of these industries globally,

898
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,800
Speaker 4: but because we have a strategic advantage in our space

899
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 4: amount of sun and wind. We are still definitely in

900
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 4: the race as long as we have that consistent policy.

901
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,760
Speaker 4: So the Aurban Easy government's brought in a number of things.

902
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 4: If there was a change of government, we'd need that

903
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,280
Speaker 4: to be consistent and that's been one of the big

904
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 4: challenges for the renewable energy industry in Australia has been

905
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 4: the chopping and changing of policy. So we need that

906
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 4: consistency if we're going to compete in a much more

907
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 4: volatile world in the twenty first century.

908
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 1: We need to say quick break back with Amanda in

909
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 1: just a moment.

910
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 2: When you're trying to communicate the impacts potentially impact of

911
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 2: a crisis to a large community to get people to move.

912
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 2: Fear is a good motivator sometimes, but as we learned

913
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:57,879
Speaker 2: in the last five to ten years or five years,

914
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 2: people only respond to that for so long and then

915
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 2: you kind of have to you kind of back it

916
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 2: off a little bit. When it comes to the climate conversation,

917
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 2: we spoke about the economics and stuff. What's the other version,

918
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 2: what's the hope side of this?

919
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:11,839
Speaker 1: What say?

920
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 2: Both of these parties coming into this election have the

921
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 2: most unbelievable future focused kind of ideas about they what

922
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 2: we could build here? What does what does twenty forty

923
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 2: look like in the most hopeful scenario economically and as

924
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:30,439
Speaker 2: far as the our quality of life goes?

925
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I like to think about Australia as playing

926
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,959
Speaker 4: a leadership role globally that also pays dividends for us.

927
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 4: So if we were to say, okay, let's get our

928
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 4: domestic pollution under control, so we electrify everything, We've got

929
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 4: our homes powered by renewables. We're showing the world how

930
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,800
Speaker 4: you can be powering our industries and community at large

931
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:56,799
Speaker 4: with renewables backed up by batteries and storage. But then

932
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 4: we're also thinking about these export industries green steel and hydrogen, etc.

933
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:04,760
Speaker 4: That can be helping the world transition away from polluting

934
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 4: sources of energy to these other sources, clean sources, and

935
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 4: that that is making people's lives better everywhere. Ultimately, the

936
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 4: result would be that we're slashing climate pollution, and every

937
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 4: time that we are using less fossil fuels, we are

938
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 4: saving lives, we're protecting species, we're protecting the places we love.

939
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 4: So ultimately it would be safeguarding our community and our

940
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 4: environment for our kids. And I've got a three year

941
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 4: old and a six year old. So when I think

942
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 4: about twenty forty, I try and think about what it

943
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,839
Speaker 4: could be like for them, and you know, there would

944
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,439
Speaker 4: only just be getting really into adulthood and thinking about

945
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 4: the agency that they could have to influence thems.

946
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 1: We eighteen walk on the beaches girls, mate.

947
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, And so wouldn't it be wonderful that they're

948
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 4: looking back and thinking, Wow, they turned it around. There

949
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 4: would still be climate impacts, for sure, we can't prevent

950
00:47:57,040 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 4: some of that happening, but it's a lot better than

951
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:01,799
Speaker 4: it would otherwise be. And these precious things that we

952
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 4: wanted to preserve for them are there.

953
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,800
Speaker 2: What do we have the opportunity to become a world

954
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 2: leader in Australia has done a great job over the

955
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 2: years of making incredible things, but sometimes we kind of

956
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 2: give it away, like Wi Fi, penicillin or solar panels.

957
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 1: What could we give to the world.

958
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 2: What could we build here that would protect the way

959
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 2: of life that we love with the roads and the

960
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 2: hospitals and the education that we have which is driven

961
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 2: by such a strong export economy. How can we replace that?

962
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 2: What does twenty fourty look like that in that.

963
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:41,360
Speaker 4: Space I think some of it would be innovation, showing

964
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 4: how we do things quickly, Like we need to transition

965
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 4: away from fossil fuels really quickly, as I said, both

966
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:48,919
Speaker 4: because our call fire generators is shutting as well as

967
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 4: the climate imperative. So Australia needs to move quickly to

968
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 4: having a smart energy system where we can manage a

969
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 4: whole range of different renewables coming into the system, batteries etc.

970
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 4: Do it really successfully. So I think we can show

971
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 4: the world how to do that. I think we can

972
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 4: be exporting these minerals that we'd be making into great products, steel, aluminium, etc.

973
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:17,239
Speaker 4: These industries that have been exporting into Australia with our

974
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 4: ore that they've value added to. Let's turn that around

975
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 4: and become an exporter. Let's make things here and send

976
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:28,760
Speaker 4: it overseas. We haven't been a leader in this space,

977
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:31,880
Speaker 4: and I think sometimes Australians are reluctant.

978
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:32,720
Speaker 3: To be leaders.

979
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 4: The first step is just getting our act together here

980
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 4: and starting to slash our own climate pollution. Like I

981
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 4: think if you're under forty in Australia, you've never experienced

982
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 4: a below average year like this is something that has

983
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:51,800
Speaker 4: been happening now for decades and has a long tail.

984
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,399
Speaker 4: I feel like when I've just come from Melbourne where

985
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 4: I live, and it's the second week of March and

986
00:49:57,719 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 4: we've just.

987
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 3: Had three days over thirty five degrees.

988
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,000
Speaker 4: It's you know, you can't point to any one week

989
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:06,359
Speaker 4: and say this is climate change. But the trend over

990
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 4: the summer was really hot summer, and my little kids,

991
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:11,760
Speaker 4: like I can't take them outside in thirty five degrees,

992
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:14,759
Speaker 4: they just wilt straight away. Like our summer, We've been

993
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 4: spending a lot of time inside, which is not how

994
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 4: I grew up. It's not how I want them to

995
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 4: grow up. I'd love to be taking them and enjoying

996
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:26,239
Speaker 4: all the things, the relaxed camping and all of that

997
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 4: stuff that we enjoy. But some things have changed now.

998
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 2: When it comes to some of the transitions you're talking about, though,

999
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 2: it is going to cost money to build transmission lines.

1000
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 2: It is going to cost communities to transition out of

1001
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:43,760
Speaker 2: these jobs.

1002
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 1: Like what's the.

1003
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 2: What's the answer to that? Like what do we how

1004
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 2: do we get around that sticky question? And there's no

1005
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 2: way around it.

1006
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:55,960
Speaker 4: Really, Yeah, Well, I don't think that people are opposed

1007
00:50:56,000 --> 00:51:00,799
Speaker 4: to investing in improving our community. Think that we all

1008
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 4: understand that we need to invest in hospitals and education

1009
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 4: and infrastructure if we are going to benefit from it

1010
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 4: down the track. I think it's just about telling the

1011
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 4: story to the community that if we invest in these things,

1012
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:16,319
Speaker 4: here will be the benefits. And I think that the

1013
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 4: assumption was that, oh, we'll have call forever, so this

1014
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 4: renewable stuff is just nice to have on the side,

1015
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 4: when it's actually a necessary thing that we must have,

1016
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:28,760
Speaker 4: that we have to replace our energy system. So communicating

1017
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:31,760
Speaker 4: why we are doing things is the critical piece of government.

1018
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 2: I guess one of the other things that you know.

1019
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:37,919
Speaker 2: I've had this conversation with some of the smartest people

1020
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:40,759
Speaker 2: I know there look at me and is like, we

1021
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 2: don't matter.

1022
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:43,399
Speaker 1: One year of US is a day or a week

1023
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 1: of China. We don't care. We don't matter when it

1024
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:46,799
Speaker 1: comes to our emissions.

1025
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 2: How do you address that, Like, we could do spend

1026
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:53,720
Speaker 2: all this money and try to cut all these missions

1027
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:56,720
Speaker 2: from our economy, but in the grain scheme of things,

1028
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,400
Speaker 2: it matters not when it comes to India, China and

1029
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:00,760
Speaker 2: that in the US.

1030
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think about other things that Australia has done

1031
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 4: in the world, like the treaties on protecting Wales, for instance,

1032
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 4: so oh well, wear a small fry. We should just

1033
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 4: leave it to everyone else to work this out, or

1034
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 4: we probably wouldn't have had the protection for Wales that

1035
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,279
Speaker 4: most Australians think is a really good idea. So just

1036
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:21,760
Speaker 4: because we are not as big as other players doesn't

1037
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 4: mean that we don't have an incredibly high stake in

1038
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 4: the outcome. And so I think it's pivotal that we

1039
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:30,399
Speaker 4: are involved in anything that affects us, but particularly things

1040
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,239
Speaker 4: that affect us a lot. And for Australia, we're the

1041
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 4: most affected developed country from climate change because we have

1042
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 4: so many We have extreme weather anyway, and it is

1043
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 4: being exacerbated in a state like Queensland. You know, they

1044
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 4: just get hammered over and over anyway. So Australia has

1045
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 4: such a vested interest in the outcome. So I think

1046
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:56,239
Speaker 4: our action is pivotal from that position. But on the

1047
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 4: other side, you could look at it from opportunity that

1048
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 4: we can sit here and say, oh, well we'll go down,

1049
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:04,440
Speaker 4: we'll just stay on the coal path, And how does

1050
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 4: that protect us economically in the twenty first century when

1051
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 4: the world's moving away from that stuff and it, you know,

1052
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 4: we then arrive twenty fifty or something. We haven't dealt

1053
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 4: with the climate crisis. We have the economic impacts of

1054
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,719
Speaker 4: having to respond to disaster draft a disaster, but we

1055
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 4: also don't have any industries that can support us because

1056
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:25,799
Speaker 4: no one's buying our coal. Like it's just nonsensical, Like

1057
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:28,360
Speaker 4: we should be doing the things that can hit multiple

1058
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 4: benefits at once, like how do we build the industries

1059
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 4: of the twenty first century that are going to be

1060
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 4: the stuff that people want to buy? As well as

1061
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 4: how do we resolve or do what we can to

1062
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 4: make these events less damaging.

1063
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:45,480
Speaker 2: You know, when it's sausage day, when we're you know,

1064
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:48,959
Speaker 2: walking past all the core flutes and we can smell

1065
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 2: the sausages and we're waiting in line and people are

1066
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 2: holding their pamphlets, what are some questions that we should

1067
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:57,839
Speaker 2: be asking of ourselves and of our mp Like one

1068
00:53:57,880 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 2: or two things we're going to ask ourselves about the

1069
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 2: part party that we're going to vote for.

1070
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the first one is who's going to

1071
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,959
Speaker 4: cut climate pollution? That's the most important one if we're

1072
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:09,760
Speaker 4: cutting climate pollution and we're dealing with the climate crisis.

1073
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 4: The second one is about which parties are going to

1074
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:17,279
Speaker 4: protect us from the events as they come down the pipeline.

1075
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:22,440
Speaker 4: So it's very disappointing when politicians don't even comment on

1076
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:25,279
Speaker 4: an event that's been very significant and say, hey, this

1077
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:28,120
Speaker 4: was climate change. We need to act so like someone

1078
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:30,239
Speaker 4: was an instance where you know, Scott Morrison sort of

1079
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 4: dodged the question for a few months until and I

1080
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 4: think the trip to Hawaii just like underlined that didn't

1081
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 4: take it seriously. So we want politicians that are going

1082
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:43,880
Speaker 4: to take the issue seriously, they get it, and that

1083
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:46,240
Speaker 4: they've got a plan to slash climate pollution.

1084
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 2: So when you talk about who's going to protect us,

1085
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 2: I know you're coming at it from a effects of

1086
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:59,360
Speaker 2: weather point of view, But for me, some of that

1087
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 2: stuff is so nebulous and so far away and like

1088
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:05,319
Speaker 2: what happened, it's rain al for it, It's not cyclone,

1089
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 2: like how do we What am I worried about?

1090
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 1: You know, I'm worried about this, worried about that.

1091
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 2: For me, the stronger argument is how going to make

1092
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:16,680
Speaker 2: sure that you know, when my wolfgang is a little

1093
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 2: bit younger than your eldest, but when he's eighteen, what

1094
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:22,800
Speaker 2: does the job market look like, yeah, what does the

1095
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 2: economy look like? Where's he going to go and get work?

1096
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:27,320
Speaker 2: Is there a hospital?

1097
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 1: Is there?

1098
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 2: Do we still have a state funded healthcare system because

1099
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 2: we can afford to because their economy is yeah, yeah,

1100
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:35,440
Speaker 2: what are we becoming? You only have to look at

1101
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 2: any other country in the world where they had this.

1102
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:40,440
Speaker 3: Is going to last forever and yeah, and we've obviously

1103
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:41,279
Speaker 3: had that story here.

1104
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 4: You know, colin gas are going to be here forever,

1105
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 4: and that's we're just going to go down that pathway

1106
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 4: and burying heads in the sand in terms of where

1107
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:50,879
Speaker 4: the global economy is going.

1108
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:52,239
Speaker 3: So yeah, I totally agree.

1109
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 4: I think having that economic lens and but bringing it

1110
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:58,279
Speaker 4: into the shorter term as well, like depending on where

1111
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 4: you are in Australia, like if you're one.

1112
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:03,279
Speaker 3: Of those energy hubs, like where are the jobs going

1113
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 3: to be?

1114
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:06,280
Speaker 4: Are they going to be in the big batteries installation,

1115
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:08,279
Speaker 4: is it going to be in the solar farms? Is

1116
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:12,320
Speaker 4: it going to be in something else? And asking those

1117
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:16,279
Speaker 4: those sorts of questions, but also for areas that are

1118
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 4: quite heavily affected by climate change, asking about insurance, like how.

1119
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:22,920
Speaker 3: Do we ensure that we can ensure our properties.

1120
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:25,279
Speaker 4: How do we make sure that if we can't, that

1121
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:27,400
Speaker 4: the government's going to support us in that scenario?

1122
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:28,759
Speaker 3: Like, what is the plan I.

1123
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 2: Made in my borderhouse in Townsville? And she paid one

1124
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:34,360
Speaker 2: hundred and forty grand for us on the outskirts of Townsville.

1125
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 2: That's how much a house costs. It's nice, right, twenty

1126
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:39,480
Speaker 2: seven thousand dollars a year annually. Oh my god, I'm insurance.

1127
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:40,280
Speaker 3: That's insane.

1128
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 1: She doesn't pay No, what would you?

1129
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 3: You couldn't, But.

1130
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:46,280
Speaker 2: That's what the insurance premium. That's what the model says.

1131
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 2: That's ridiculous. Because insurance companies go down, then business can't function. Yeah,

1132
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 2: you know, we nobody can drive anywhere. Like, the whole

1133
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:01,440
Speaker 2: thing falls apart. And often wonder I think like insurance

1134
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:04,360
Speaker 2: might be the thing, the insurance lobby might be the

1135
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:05,520
Speaker 2: thing that pushes.

1136
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:06,080
Speaker 3: It the government.

1137
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:09,640
Speaker 4: The opposition to saying insurance companies are the problem sort

1138
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:13,239
Speaker 4: of glosses over the biggest story that insurance companies are

1139
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:16,840
Speaker 4: legitimately under pressure from climate disasters.

1140
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:19,560
Speaker 2: The other thing to look at the economic model is

1141
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:23,440
Speaker 2: there's a phrase, money is a coward. Money likes certainty,

1142
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:24,920
Speaker 2: money likes predictability.

1143
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 1: When you.

1144
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:28,200
Speaker 2: I don't know if you've done any research in this space,

1145
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 2: but when you look at like the huge kind of

1146
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:33,440
Speaker 2: venture capital funds and the enormous kind of investment funds,

1147
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 2: where's that trend? Because those guys are doing all there,

1148
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 2: They've got entire versions of you in every office, Like

1149
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:41,919
Speaker 2: they literally.

1150
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 1: Have climate modelers in every one of those places.

1151
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:44,080
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1152
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Where does that look as we look around the

1153
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 2: world at like the huge big investment funds, where does

1154
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 2: a movement of their money? What does that tell you

1155
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 2: about about decisions and where people are investing?

1156
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 4: And I think from looking where the money is going

1157
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 4: is a really good set. It kind of goes ahead

1158
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:03,920
Speaker 4: of government, I suppose, So it's a really good indicator.

1159
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:08,520
Speaker 4: So the investment in renewables in batteries has been a

1160
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 4: long time story and continues to be a big story.

1161
00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:14,000
Speaker 4: One thing that I've found interesting recently is the amount

1162
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:19,520
Speaker 4: of investment in carbon draw down technology. So that's technology

1163
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 4: to take climate take climate pollution out of the air.

1164
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 4: So the molecules of carbon dioxide up there, how do

1165
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 4: we get them out? And there's been a lot of

1166
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 4: this technology around for a while, but it hasn't seen

1167
00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 4: much investment so it seems like there is more interest

1168
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 4: in that from venture capitalists, from technologists as well as

1169
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 4: geoengineering technology. So that's a technology that says, well, we

1170
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:46,920
Speaker 4: can change the climate in another way. So there's a

1171
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 4: whole range of different technologies in that bucket, but things

1172
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:53,200
Speaker 4: like will put solar in the stratosphere to reflect the

1173
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:57,640
Speaker 4: Sun's rays to cool down the planet. So geoengineering is

1174
00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:00,080
Speaker 4: how do we do more experiments with the world to

1175
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:03,840
Speaker 4: safeguards from the climate crisis, whereas carbon draw down is

1176
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:05,560
Speaker 4: how do we get the stuff, the bad stuff out

1177
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:05,919
Speaker 4: of the air.

1178
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:10,240
Speaker 2: If you could ask your local MP, you know, one

1179
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 2: question about you know, what are you doing?

1180
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:15,280
Speaker 1: Or I'll vote for you? Can you tell me about this?

1181
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:17,800
Speaker 1: What would you ask them?

1182
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:18,120
Speaker 2: Hmm?

1183
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:23,320
Speaker 4: Maybe the question could be around how are you going

1184
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 4: to cooperate with the others in parliament to get outcomes

1185
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:30,280
Speaker 4: on this? Because one thing that I've really noticed in

1186
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 4: the Federal Parliament in the last three years, with the

1187
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:36,640
Speaker 4: number of climate independents that have come in, is that

1188
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:40,600
Speaker 4: there is a spirit of how do we get a

1189
00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 4: better outcome on this? What are the amendments that we

1190
00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:45,600
Speaker 4: could bring to a bill that the government's brought for instance,

1191
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:48,960
Speaker 4: and what I noticed going into those offices, apart from

1192
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 4: the color, because you kind of used to going into

1193
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:54,360
Speaker 4: rooms with men in black suits, but all those women

1194
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 4: seem to wear like beautiful pinks and purples and things.

1195
00:59:57,520 --> 01:00:02,240
Speaker 2: Carlos Patty's your mum knowing what looks good.

1196
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:03,280
Speaker 3: That's true.

1197
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:06,200
Speaker 4: So I think that the listening to the experts was

1198
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:10,240
Speaker 4: very refreshing seeing more independence come in. So I think

1199
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 4: having people come into the Parliament as climate champions and

1200
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:17,440
Speaker 4: that being part of their platform has been very helpful

1201
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:21,160
Speaker 4: in increasing their dialogue. But encourage all of them to

1202
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,120
Speaker 4: be working together for outcomes like the tit for tat

1203
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:29,840
Speaker 4: stuff obviously doesn't serve anyone, but the politics can't change

1204
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 4: unless the individuals in Parliament House change their approach.

1205
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:36,160
Speaker 3: So the public putting good people.

1206
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:38,200
Speaker 4: In there and then asking them to do good things,

1207
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:39,480
Speaker 4: you can't it perfectly.

1208
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 1: The enemy are good as well. You know.

1209
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 2: I'm sure what we've talked about today, I would love

1210
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:46,760
Speaker 2: that to be It probably won't be, no, but if

1211
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:50,120
Speaker 2: we got twenty percent of it as a flaw, yeah,

1212
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:51,479
Speaker 2: i'bby over the moon.

1213
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:54,440
Speaker 4: Well, I think that's the thing is taking what you

1214
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:59,760
Speaker 4: can get, like under the current government. They certainly haven't

1215
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:01,960
Speaker 4: done it everything we would want them to do, but

1216
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:03,960
Speaker 4: they have done some really good things, and I think

1217
01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:06,280
Speaker 4: we do need to give credit where credit's due when

1218
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:09,480
Speaker 4: governments have progressed and so they have regulated some of

1219
01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:13,960
Speaker 4: the biggest polluters. Have they regulated them enough? No? Do

1220
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:17,040
Speaker 4: they need to do more, absolutely, but it's a start,

1221
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:21,000
Speaker 4: and I think that's we've been in kind of no

1222
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:23,880
Speaker 4: man's land for a long time on climate. So I

1223
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:26,280
Speaker 4: think we need to take those incremental wins, and sure

1224
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:28,800
Speaker 4: we need to take big steps from now, but.

1225
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:33,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, we've got to those big steps. Are though, Like,

1226
01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:36,120
Speaker 1: it's a big step to build the hospital. Yeah, it's

1227
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:39,200
Speaker 1: But why are we building such a big hospital here?

1228
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:42,040
Speaker 2: Because in twenty years there'll be this many people living

1229
01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 2: around it will need it, and that's why we build

1230
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:44,480
Speaker 2: it now.

1231
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:46,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I was thinking.

1232
01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:48,440
Speaker 4: I was reading something about Donald Trump today and I

1233
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:51,080
Speaker 4: was like, wholl the ambition of this man. He's great,

1234
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:53,480
Speaker 4: And I was like, Wow, we need people with that

1235
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:55,920
Speaker 4: level of ambition that want to actually make the world better.

1236
01:01:56,680 --> 01:01:59,480
Speaker 4: And how about if that was the question to the politicians,

1237
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:01,400
Speaker 4: how are you going to bring an ambition for good?

1238
01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 4: How are you going to build a better Australia and

1239
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:06,720
Speaker 4: be like dog it about it. Take it to every

1240
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:08,880
Speaker 4: day that you're in parliament serving people.

1241
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:12,040
Speaker 2: I like that as a question to ask if you're

1242
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:14,880
Speaker 2: if you're sitting there in a safe seat and you're

1243
01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:16,720
Speaker 2: just going to vote along party lines.

1244
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:18,920
Speaker 3: Really, yeah, it's not enough.

1245
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:24,640
Speaker 2: We could be not only okay, we could be amazing

1246
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 2: if we wanted.

1247
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:27,440
Speaker 3: If you couldn't we oh sure, of course.

1248
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:31,200
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful you you had the time to come today.

1249
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:31,720
Speaker 1: It is.

1250
01:02:32,560 --> 01:02:35,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's harrowing what we're facing. But knowing when I

1251
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:38,800
Speaker 2: was really sick, all right, I couldn't. I knew there

1252
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:41,160
Speaker 2: were people like you in the world, but my brain

1253
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 2: was so cooked it couldn't accept that people like you existed.

1254
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:48,080
Speaker 2: All right, but I knew people like you were around,

1255
01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:51,920
Speaker 2: And to be able to sit here ten eleven years

1256
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:55,280
Speaker 2: later and no, that really really smart people. I work

1257
01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:58,880
Speaker 2: it really, really hard, really every day to try and

1258
01:02:58,920 --> 01:02:59,800
Speaker 2: make it really good.

1259
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 1: It's such a lovely relief.

1260
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:07,800
Speaker 2: I know it's not perfect, but I'm grateful that you

1261
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:10,080
Speaker 2: wrote that thing on the beach when you're a kid,

1262
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:13,280
Speaker 2: you know, because it makes me be able to go

1263
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:15,800
Speaker 2: home and play with my son and go there's people

1264
01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:18,320
Speaker 2: that are working on it, mate, we can just help them.

1265
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I reckon that hope ends up being a

1266
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:23,480
Speaker 4: bit of a muscle, doesn't it.

1267
01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:25,280
Speaker 3: You have to sort of exercise.

1268
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:27,560
Speaker 4: It over and over, and it can be easy to

1269
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:31,360
Speaker 4: feel despairing in the world. I think I think about

1270
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:34,120
Speaker 4: that a lot at the moment, like getting up and thinking, well,

1271
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:37,000
Speaker 4: I can't change everything, but what can I do on

1272
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:38,960
Speaker 4: this day, this day that I've been given?

1273
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:41,160
Speaker 3: How do I make the most of this particular moment.

1274
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:45,120
Speaker 1: I'm glad you chose these moments to talk to us.

1275
01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

1276
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:52,480
Speaker 2: That was Amanda Mackenzie. She is the co founder and

1277
01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:55,200
Speaker 2: CEO of the Climate Council. Head to their website climate

1278
01:03:55,240 --> 01:03:59,400
Speaker 2: Council dot org dot au for everything that she was

1279
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:01,640
Speaker 2: talking about today. Plenty of information on there, including a

1280
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:05,840
Speaker 2: report on Cycle and Alfred which is publishing tomorrow, and

1281
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:08,840
Speaker 2: plenty more stuff coming off that website as we had

1282
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:11,560
Speaker 2: to election time too. As I mentioned earlier, democracies only

1283
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:15,480
Speaker 2: work when the people in the democracy understand what they're

1284
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:18,640
Speaker 2: voting for. I really like what you said, I asked her,

1285
01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:20,840
Speaker 2: what would you say, your MP, how are you going

1286
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:22,400
Speaker 2: to work with other people to make sure this is

1287
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:25,200
Speaker 2: going to work out. It is not even election time

1288
01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:28,920
Speaker 2: as of recording this, and the coalition member from my

1289
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:30,880
Speaker 2: seat came and knocked on my door the other day

1290
01:04:31,720 --> 01:04:34,840
Speaker 2: eight minutes past or right after I've got my son

1291
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:37,280
Speaker 2: home from school. My wife's not very well. You know,

1292
01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:40,240
Speaker 2: it's just all happening. Hand up like not right now,

1293
01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:43,120
Speaker 2: but could on you. I'm thrilled that you're here and

1294
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:45,440
Speaker 2: you're giving a shot. I wish I had the time

1295
01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:46,240
Speaker 2: to ask you that question.

1296
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:47,040
Speaker 1: What would you do?

1297
01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:48,640
Speaker 2: What are you going to do to work with others

1298
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:51,960
Speaker 2: to make sure that we have an economy, we have

1299
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:54,400
Speaker 2: a future, we have national security, we have safety wherever,

1300
01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:57,560
Speaker 2: the healthcare system, and for fox sake, what are we

1301
01:04:57,600 --> 01:05:00,320
Speaker 2: going to do if I guess the full degrees? Because

1302
01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:03,000
Speaker 2: we need a plan. This is what we've got to

1303
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:05,680
Speaker 2: think about. It's tough to think about, as I mentioned,

1304
01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:08,400
Speaker 2: but we got to do it. Thanks for being a

1305
01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:10,960
Speaker 2: part of it. If you want to come to story

1306
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:13,720
Speaker 2: Club and you can't afford it, just send me an email,

1307
01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:15,240
Speaker 2: Send us an email at g email. Look, calm will

1308
01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:17,240
Speaker 2: see what I can do. I always have a couple

1309
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:18,960
Speaker 2: of aamil on the door Rocking Squeeze in thanks to

1310
01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:21,000
Speaker 2: Adam Buncher, who made this fantastic show with me.

1311
01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:22,320
Speaker 1: I'll see on Monday.