Speaker 1: For the pain, suffering and hurt of these stolen generations,
Speaker 1: their descendants, and for their families left behind, we say sorry.
Speaker 2: It's been eighteen years since Prime Minister Kevin Rudd made
Speaker 2: a public national apology for the stolen generations.
Speaker 1: To the mothers and the fathers, the brothers and the sisters.
Speaker 1: For the breaking up of families and communities, we say sorry.
Speaker 1: And for the indignity and degradation thus inflicted on a
Speaker 1: proud people and a proud culture, we say sorry. We
Speaker 1: today take this first step by acknowledging the past and
Speaker 1: laying claim to a future that embraces all Australians, a
Speaker 1: future where this Parliament resolves that the injustices of the
Speaker 1: past must never never happen again.
Speaker 2: As part of that commitment to right the wrongs of
Speaker 2: the past, the Government set up the Closing the Gap
Speaker 2: goals around a range of injustices faced by First Nations peoples.
Speaker 2: One of those markers was reducing the number of Indigenous
Speaker 2: children in out of home care. But nearly twenty years
Speaker 2: into Closing the Gap, that number is not reducing, it's growing,
Speaker 2: and today the number of Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander children
Speaker 2: in out of home care is higher than the estimated
Speaker 2: number of children removed during the Stolen Generations. I'm Daniel
Speaker 2: James and you're listening to seven AM today Bungelung woman
Speaker 2: lawyer and the former act Commissioner for Aboriginal and Tyrest
Speaker 2: Right Islander Children and Young People, Vanessa Turnbul Roberts on
Speaker 2: what needs to happen to keep First Nations children at home.
Speaker 2: It's Thursday, April nine. Venessa, thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 2: When Kevin made that apology, there was a great sense
Speaker 2: of catharsis around the nation. It was very emotional for
Speaker 2: many of survivors, people related survivors and those of us
Speaker 2: who just looked on of the Stolen generations. But there's
Speaker 2: also a sense of hope that things may change. But
Speaker 2: in that very same year the Prime Minister made this apology,
Speaker 2: you were taken away from your family when you were
Speaker 2: just ten years old. Can you tell us what happened.
Speaker 3: I'm almost thirty and being near this age now reflecting
Speaker 3: on that moment and reflecting on when Kevin Rudd gave
Speaker 3: that national apology and the crisis that we are in
Speaker 3: now as a nation when it comes to child removal,
Speaker 3: when it comes to using punitive responses as opposed to
Speaker 3: actually how we are holistically supporting families in communities, it
Speaker 3: hits a different place. And for me, the night that
Speaker 3: I was stolen from my father, that is a moment
Speaker 3: in time where it's set the precedent of so much
Speaker 3: of my work today, and it set the precedent of actually,
Speaker 3: Australia historically has a problem in its contemporary element has
Speaker 3: a problem. And that was one of the most shattering
Speaker 3: arts of my life and feeling what my father had
Speaker 3: to go through, what my mother had to go through,
Speaker 3: and often what we don't talk about in child removal
Speaker 3: is actually what siblings have to go through. And when
Speaker 3: you take away your sibling and you separate that and
Speaker 3: there is impact. There's impact on children that are left,
Speaker 3: children that are taken, and the fact that there is
Speaker 3: this whole system that has a significant amount of funding
Speaker 3: and money allocated to it not responding in a way
Speaker 3: that it should.
Speaker 2: Tell me more about that experience. What impact does that
Speaker 2: kind of trauma have on a person?
Speaker 3: So I escaped what many call the family policing system,
Speaker 3: some people call it foster care or out of home
Speaker 3: care or the statutory care system. Here in Australia, and
Speaker 3: I escaped that system at the age of eighteen, so
Speaker 3: as soon as I could leave, I left. Many survivors,
Speaker 3: including myself, talk about the harm of what's gone on
Speaker 3: in foster homes, talk about the harm around what's going
Speaker 3: on in terms of the physical, emotional sexual abuse around
Speaker 3: children and young people in statutory care systems. We also
Speaker 3: see it with our mental health facilities. We just have
Speaker 3: to gather the data around who's entering these facilities, and
Speaker 3: we just have to gather the evidence around who's incarcerated,
Speaker 3: what's their story, what's their background. For me, when I
Speaker 3: was ten and even prior to being ten, in our community,
Speaker 3: we grew up with three fundamental spaces that really shaped
Speaker 3: what our community was. We had a prison next door,
Speaker 3: We had a high sex offenders housing block, which still
Speaker 3: exists today. And then we had one local underfunded community
Speaker 3: service center. So the community service center was a space
Speaker 3: where actually men in our community could go on access
Speaker 3: whether you were if you were struggling, or you needed
Speaker 3: an extra hand, you needed maybe an electricity voucher or
Speaker 3: something to support you on your off week. That was
Speaker 3: the place to go. That was the place that was
Speaker 3: going to support you, but we also had a disproportionate
Speaker 3: impact of the child welfare system visiting our communities, and
Speaker 3: we also had policing in our communities.
Speaker 4: Nonstock.
Speaker 3: No one wants to talk about racism and the way
Speaker 3: structural racism has played one of the biggest fundamental roles
Speaker 3: in child removal Todayalism in seventeen eighty eight, false idea
Speaker 3: of protection leaning into the same paternalism twenty twenty six.
Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about some of the numbers. Every year
Speaker 2: the Productivity Commission releases data and Closing the Gap targets.
Speaker 2: Target twelve aims to reduce the rate of abergin entristraate
Speaker 2: Island the children and out of home care by forty
Speaker 2: five percent by twenty thirty one. The reality is nowhere
Speaker 2: near that, of course, and the situation is getting worse,
Speaker 2: not better. Can you give us a snapshop of how
Speaker 2: die the situation is at the moment.
Speaker 4: It's critical.
Speaker 3: We're in the crisis and the people that are facing
Speaker 3: that crisis the most is our children and young people.
Speaker 3: Every time that we respond that the idea of separation
Speaker 3: and disconnection is the solution, we are adding further risk
Speaker 3: to that child's long term outcome and interest. So we're
Speaker 3: then leaning from the outcomes of closing the gap, being
Speaker 3: from the removal statistic through to where are you pipelining
Speaker 3: to then you're entering the statistics and closing the gap
Speaker 3: around incarceration. Child removal is the undergraduate degree for an
Speaker 3: honors degree into the youth justice system for a PhD
Speaker 3: into the adult prison system.
Speaker 4: And that's what we're doing with our children and young people.
Speaker 3: And the fact that today, in this very moment in
Speaker 3: twenty twenty six, that we have a higher rate of
Speaker 3: forcible removal than the sole generations. That should be a
Speaker 3: huge concern for this.
Speaker 2: Nation coming up the pipeline from child protection to prison
Speaker 2: and how it can be broken. Can I get you
Speaker 2: just to explain a little bit more about why children
Speaker 2: are funneled into the prison system, just to help people
Speaker 2: at home understand how that connection actually works, so.
Speaker 3: When children are forcibly removed as a result of that
Speaker 3: disconnection as a result of insirational trauma being triggered. And
Speaker 3: Royal Commission to Child Protection was a really powerful reference
Speaker 3: point that highlighted what's the impact of kids in care
Speaker 3: and what's the pattern that we're seeing and a lot
Speaker 3: of kids in care. When you are in that system,
Speaker 3: the one thing you want to do is you want
Speaker 3: to run back home. You want to run to someone
Speaker 3: you know, and you want to leave, and you want
Speaker 3: to flee safety. And then what we see is from
Speaker 3: kids in care and then kids going into the criminal
Speaker 3: justice system is such severe cultural disconnection, spiritual disconnection, people disconnection,
Speaker 3: community disconnection, and family connection. And they're five really important
Speaker 3: pieces of connection that you need as a young person,
Speaker 3: as a child to really build your sense of regulation
Speaker 3: and your sense of self and where you belong. And
Speaker 3: any young person that is struggling with connection, you will
Speaker 3: look for connection in some way, even if it's not
Speaker 3: in the best way.
Speaker 4: And so that's when we're seeing a.
Speaker 3: Higher rate of policing involved with our children and young people.
Speaker 3: And it's that first incident or that second incident that
Speaker 3: results in youth incarceration, and before you know it, because
Speaker 3: of the higher rate of youth incarceration here in Australia,
Speaker 3: what we then see is kids forming a connection with
Speaker 3: each other in the midst of their disconnection, but.
Speaker 4: It's then creating an environment.
Speaker 3: Where prison becomes their home and their norm, and then
Speaker 3: that's increasing the recidivism rate of our kids because the
Speaker 3: place that is consistent to them is the prison system.
Speaker 3: But it becomes a key crisis point because we don't
Speaker 3: want our children to die, and we don't want our
Speaker 3: people to die. And we have a country here where
Speaker 3: we are now at the highest rate of Aberginal deaths
Speaker 3: in custody.
Speaker 5: Australia has recorded the largest number of Indigenous deaths in
Speaker 5: custody since nineteen seventy nine. New data shows one hundred
Speaker 5: and thirteen people died in custody during the past financial year.
Speaker 5: Thirty three of them were Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.
Speaker 2: As you mentioned, Vanessa, the figures in twenty twenty six
Speaker 2: exceed the number of children estimated to have been removed
Speaker 2: during the Stolen generations. How connected is this situation to
Speaker 2: past practices.
Speaker 4: Very connected.
Speaker 3: It's because of those past practices that actually we are
Speaker 3: seeing the detrimental impacts in our communities when we look
Speaker 3: at the data and the prevalence of how many abajahon
Speaker 3: Tachu are under children.
Speaker 4: Are being removed.
Speaker 3: It's our little people, our little people, Daniel, that are
Speaker 3: making up the jobs and the industry.
Speaker 4: And one chapter I write about.
Speaker 3: If you get the chance to read my book, is
Speaker 3: I really bring together the way the industry focuses on privatization.
Speaker 3: It's turned into a way that there is profit on
Speaker 3: the back end of poverty. And what I share is
Speaker 3: the moment that we start punishing poverty, the moment that
Speaker 3: we start saying to families and in particular mothers that
Speaker 3: are fleeing domestic and family violence, the worst thing that
Speaker 3: you can do to any mother is remove their child,
Speaker 3: especially in a circumstance of domestic and family violence. The
Speaker 3: best thing we can do when it comes to system
Speaker 3: impact violence is actually say we've got a safe space, mum,
Speaker 3: We're not taking you. We want to make sure you
Speaker 3: and bubb are safe and together, and actually getting the
Speaker 3: right people to respond to the urgency where it's happening. So,
Speaker 3: for example, in my case, when I was forcibly removed,
Speaker 3: I had fifteen police officers and that police cars stormed
Speaker 3: down our housing commissioned street. You would have thought there
Speaker 3: was a murder that took place. I was just about
Speaker 3: to close my eyes and go to bed.
Speaker 4: I was just.
Speaker 3: About to sleep, and my dad walks on the balcony
Speaker 3: and he says, bub I'm so sorry, they're coming to
Speaker 3: get you.
Speaker 4: He just knew.
Speaker 3: And as Blackfellow, as we get intuition, we get strength,
Speaker 3: we get messaging. And my dad felt something was about
Speaker 3: to happen, and it happened, and there was no need
Speaker 3: for policing to be involved in my removal. And on
Speaker 3: a professional experience, what I often see is policing contact
Speaker 3: me and say, Vanessa, we know we're not the best
Speaker 3: respondent for this situation, but the department are putting it
Speaker 3: on us, and then the police are putting it on.
Speaker 4: The department, and we've got two.
Speaker 3: Big, big organizations and bodies that are blaming each other
Speaker 3: around who needs to be the respondent. And in a
Speaker 3: situation like that, I do acknowledge sometimes there needs to
Speaker 3: be other different safeguard mechanisms in place, depending on the circumstance.
Speaker 3: But send someone in who can actually say, hey, Mum,
Speaker 3: hey Dad, hey Nan, hey Annie, what is it that
Speaker 3: you need in this moment and before it hits crisis point?
Speaker 3: Because we can tell by all the research we're seeing
Speaker 3: here in the pattern here, let's actually document slowly what
Speaker 3: needs to happen, and then let's provide the support services
Speaker 3: that are needed, and that stems from housing sustainability through
Speaker 3: to our children and young people being connected to our
Speaker 3: sovereign lands and culture. But I also see it with
Speaker 3: non Indigenous kids as well, the struggle, the impact of
Speaker 3: the system, the system actually acting as a perpetrator in
Speaker 3: circumstances of removal. Because the crisis is actually against all children,
Speaker 3: it just disproportionately impacts our kids.
Speaker 6: Never before have our children been put into legislation around
Speaker 6: the protection of their rights, around them having a say
Speaker 6: in the future of their well being and the systems
Speaker 6: that surround them.
Speaker 4: So part of my.
Speaker 6: Role will be to go out and talk to kids
Speaker 6: and get their voices. We can bring those back. We
Speaker 6: can do inquiries, make recommendations to Parliament around the systems
Speaker 6: from the voices of the children Vanessa.
Speaker 2: Last week, the Federal government passed a new law that
Speaker 2: gives the National Commissioner for Aboriginal Tristrateile, the Children and
Speaker 2: Young People su and Hunter new powers to independently investigate
Speaker 2: systemic issues within the child protection system. How effective do
Speaker 2: you think this will be in reducing the over representation
Speaker 2: of First Nation's children in the child protection system and
Speaker 2: in prisons.
Speaker 3: So Commissioner Hunter is an extraordinary leader and an extraordinary advocate.
Speaker 3: Her background is within the social workspace, and the difference
Speaker 3: I think when you have someone from that background versus
Speaker 3: someone from a direct legal background, is you have someone
Speaker 3: that's worked directly with children and young people and actually
Speaker 3: seen the stories of our people and what our people
Speaker 3: have gone through. And with Commissioner Hunter's new statutory powers,
Speaker 3: the one thing that she has is key independence. And
Speaker 3: I had the privilege of working behind the scenes around
Speaker 3: advocating for that independence, along with Snake and other organizations
Speaker 3: and independence and academics that were strongly advocating just how
Speaker 3: important it is that Commissioner Hunter has that independence, and
Speaker 3: it means that there can be high level political transparency
Speaker 3: because here in this country we are really afraid to
Speaker 3: talk about what's going on with children and young people,
Speaker 3: and we are not centering their rights at the front
Speaker 3: of every single discussion and every single action. And she
Speaker 3: has the power to intervene hold inquiries, and I have
Speaker 3: no doubt that there will be times where she may
Speaker 3: be met with criticism from different states and territories. But
Speaker 3: as First Nations people, we urgently need someone that is
Speaker 3: independent at the federal level and able to actually say no,
Speaker 3: this isn't okay. We had the United Nations denied access
Speaker 3: into prisons when they came to visit Australia. That itself
Speaker 3: is a national disgrace because it's what are you hiding?
Speaker 3: And now we have a federal commissioner, Commissioner Hunter, who
Speaker 3: can turn around and say I'm holding an inquiry and
Speaker 3: there is an onus of responsibility of the minister to
Speaker 3: publicly table that in Parliament and it's all eyes on
Speaker 3: our children, it's all eyes on incarceration. Now. It's a
Speaker 3: huge job that she has, but I truly believe Commissioner
Speaker 3: Hunter is going to be a strong stepping stone as
Speaker 3: long as she's supported and as long as she is
Speaker 3: backed by the right people lead some public accountability because
Speaker 3: the country is yet to know about child and rival
Speaker 3: and the country is yet to know around the pipeline
Speaker 3: of incarceration. I mean, we look up children with their
Speaker 3: baby teeth. Still, it's a pretty big disgrace.
Speaker 2: Vanessa, thanks so much for the working that you do
Speaker 2: and thank you so much for coming on seven am.
Speaker 4: Thanks so much, Daniel, all the best.
Speaker 2: Also in the news, US President Donald Trump has agreed
Speaker 2: to suspend the bombing of Iran for two weeks in
Speaker 2: an announcement coming just hours before his deadline for Tehran
Speaker 2: to reopen the Straits of Hormus or face widespread bombing
Speaker 2: of its civilian infrastructure. The two countries are now set
Speaker 2: to enter talks in his Lumbabad. The White House is
Speaker 2: called the ceasefire a victory for the United States, but
Speaker 2: Iran did not sign on to Washington's report a fifteen
Speaker 2: point plan, which called for an end to uranium enrichment. Instead,
Speaker 2: negotiations were now received from Iran's own ten point proposal
Speaker 2: built around a permanent end to the war, sanctions, relief,
Speaker 2: and reconstruction, while the proposal's exact language on enrichment remains unclear.
Speaker 2: Under the two weeks cease fire, the Straits of Hormus
Speaker 2: will reopen on the condition that vessels coordinate with the
Speaker 2: Iranian armed forces and ben Robert Smith has made his
Speaker 2: first court appearance after being charged with war crimes. The
Speaker 2: proceedings lasted just minutes, with lawyers for the decorated soldier
Speaker 2: not applying for bail. The matter has been relisted for
Speaker 2: June four, meaning Robert Smith will remain in custody for
Speaker 2: at least two months. The forty seven year old is
Speaker 2: accused of the murder of unarmed civilians while deployed in
Speaker 2: Afghanistan between two thousand and nine and twenty twelve, as
Speaker 2: well as failing to stop members of his unit from
Speaker 2: killing three others. I'm Daniel James. You've been listening to
Speaker 2: seven Am. We'll be back tomorrow.