1 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm sure 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: and Alma, customer losses from scams are down twenty percent 3 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: year on year according to National Australia Bank, but the 4 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: number of attempted scams continues to rise and it comes 5 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: to the warning of a new wave of AI powered 6 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: scams and dodgy crypto investments. Chris Sheen is Executive Group 7 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: Investigations at NAB and those this space better than most, 8 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: having also spent twenty seven years at the Australian Federal Police. Chris, 9 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: welcome back to Fear and Greed. 10 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 2: Thank Sean, nice to be back. 11 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: Let's start with the good news new year. We want 12 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: the good news. The amount of money that's been stolen 13 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 1: is down twenty percent. That's a good thing, isn't it 14 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:45,239 Speaker 1: It is. 15 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 2: I'll take it for a start, and I'm sure our 16 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 2: customers are glad that the losses are down, that losses 17 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 2: from scams are down twenty percent, and I'd love to 18 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 2: see it down even further. And I'm confident that we're 19 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 2: going to get there, but you know, at the risk 20 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 2: of being a bit of a down or after we 21 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 2: tried to start on a high point, the number of 22 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,919 Speaker 2: attacks scam attacks against our customers has increased by eighteen percent. 23 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 2: So I guess what that tells us is that the 24 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 2: environment is still really hostile. These criminal groups are still 25 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 2: very active and still out there and looking to steal 26 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 2: everybody's money if they can get a chance to do so. 27 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: So why are the results better? Is that customer behavior? 28 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 1: Is it better security from banks? What's the reason all. 29 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 2: Of the above? I have no doubt that a big 30 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 2: chunk of this is because of all of the communication 31 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 2: that's occurred through podcasts like yours, through the media, through 32 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 2: the efforts of the banks, government and others to raise 33 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 2: awareness of scams and the types of risks and threats 34 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 2: that are out there. You'd be very brave to suggest 35 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 2: that that hasn't played a crucial role. People are more aware, 36 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 2: more scarce, scams sappy. But banks have spent tens of 37 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 2: millions of dollars in the last three or four years 38 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 2: to really drive into this problem. Our own bank alone 39 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 2: has probably spent very close to one hundred million dollars 40 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 2: just tackling this issue. In terms of technology and people 41 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 2: putting in place things like real time payment alert, so 42 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 2: if someone's making a payment it'll intervene in the payment 43 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 2: if we think there's a scam concern, doing everything we 44 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 2: possibly can to try and make it as safe as possible. 45 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 2: So bring those two things together and we're starting to 46 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 2: see the types of reductions that we'd like to maintain. 47 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: Is there a flip side any to it? Anytime I 48 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: get a note from my bank, I almost disregard it 49 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: in that if I need to, I mean, I'll go 50 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: to the app, and if need be that I can't 51 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: remember having done this in the last year, I'll actually 52 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: ring them. But the kind of problem is that I 53 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: don't trust anything that comes from a bank now. And 54 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: that's not against the bank per se. 55 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,079 Speaker 2: No, no, sure, And I think that you're the ideal 56 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:49,639 Speaker 2: customer in some respects. I say this all the time. 57 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 2: Whatever gets presented to you in a digital environment, if 58 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:57,079 Speaker 2: you're a text message or WhatsApp, an email, a phone call, 59 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 2: something that you might see on social media or online, 60 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 2: you have to treat all of that with a very 61 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 2: healthy degree of skepticism because you really have no way, 62 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 2: at first blush of assessing whether it's accurate, truthful, or 63 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 2: safe or not. So if you're doing that, and I 64 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:15,639 Speaker 2: think that's what most people are doing. Now that's a 65 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 2: big that's a big tick where banks are leaning into this. 66 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 2: You know, we're putting protections around the text messages that 67 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 2: we do use, so it makes it much harder for 68 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 2: criminals to spoof them all or fish them. And I 69 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 2: think most of us are moving towards communicating with our 70 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 2: customers through the banking app because that's obviously a very secure, 71 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 2: a very secure vector for communication. My advice to people is, 72 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 2: if in doubt, don't make a payment, because once you 73 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 2: hit send on a payment and that money leaves your account, 74 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 2: the locklihood of anyone being able to get it back 75 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 2: from you is incredibly Large's probably less than ten percent. 76 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 2: Ring your bank on a number that you know is 77 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 2: their number, so the number on the back of your 78 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 2: credit card or your debit card, or the number that 79 00:03:56,240 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 2: you source yourself from a a reliable location. Bubble check 80 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 2: slow down. 81 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: Okay. One thing I do like about this the banks 82 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: are incredibly competitive in home landing, in business landing, et cetera. 83 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: But they don't seem to compete where they do compete 84 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: because they advertise about their security systems, but it's not 85 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: like that you're at each other straight like everyone's kind 86 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: of going for the same goal here. Yeah. 87 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 2: Look, I think I've actually just come back from the 88 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 2: UK before Christmas, where I've spent a fair bit of 89 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 2: time over there talking to the banks and the regulators 90 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 2: and government around how they're tackling this scams problem. And 91 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 2: I've been in Singapore earlier in the year for the 92 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 2: same purpose. One of the observations I'd make coming out 93 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 2: of those trips is that overall Australian banking is probably 94 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 2: the most collaborative and engaged with each other on this problem. 95 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 2: You're quite right, Yeah, we commercially, we compete fiercely. Yes, 96 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 2: we all have our advertising campaigns running to raise awareness 97 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,479 Speaker 2: of scams and point out the fact that we're leading 98 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:56,159 Speaker 2: the industry and these things. And by the way, NAP 99 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 2: is leading the industry, to be clear. But when it 100 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,280 Speaker 2: comes down to when it come of course, but when 101 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 2: it comes down to sharing intelligence in real time and 102 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 2: collaborating with each other in meaningful ways to prevent organized 103 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 2: criminals from being able to steal money from our customers 104 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 2: and exploit our systems. I think we're doing it better 105 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 2: than anyone in the world. And a really good example 106 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,840 Speaker 2: of that was in November last year, the major banks 107 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 2: plus Sun Court all signed up to the Buyocatch Trust Consortium. 108 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 2: So we're exchanging real time payment data now. And what 109 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 2: that means in practical terms, is my customers caught in 110 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 2: a scam, they go to make a payment to one 111 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 2: of our one of the other banks in this consortium, 112 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 2: I will see telemetry in real time that says, hey, 113 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 2: that looks like a mule account, or hey, that recipient 114 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 2: account looks like it's been subject to account takeover. And 115 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 2: I can hold the money in NAB without letting that 116 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 2: payment go. Now that's unique. Nowhere else in the world 117 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 2: is doing that, and I firmly believe it could only 118 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 2: happen in this country where the bank's work say well 119 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 2: together on this problem. 120 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: Okay, now you've put together a list of the top 121 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: five scams customers need to be watching out for this year, 122 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: starting with AI powered scams. Did they look like a 123 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: bit scary really? 124 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 2: Well, I guess if you wanted to put a face 125 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 2: to an AI powered artificial intelligence powered scam, you could 126 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 2: probably put Andrew Forrest's face to it, or Dick Smith 127 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 2: or kotchis Australian examples of people whose identity whose images, 128 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 2: whose voices have been essentially hijacked by criminals using artificial 129 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 2: intelligence that then portray tray them as spooking for fake 130 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 2: investment opportunities that are just straight out scams. We've also 131 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 2: seen artificial intelligence used to do something that we call spearfishing, 132 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 2: or very targeted scam attacks against CEOs CFOs and the 133 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 2: staff that work closely to them, And a really good 134 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 2: example of that happened in Hong Kong probably a couple 135 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 2: of years ago, where the criminals used artificial intelligence to 136 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 2: replicate a company officer's voice and convinced a person to 137 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 2: make a very large, multi multimillion dollar payment because it 138 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,679 Speaker 2: sounded real. I mean, I think one of the figures 139 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 2: that get sort of banded about. They only need about 140 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 2: three to five seconds of your voice to be able 141 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 2: to produce a reasonable facsimilate to try and convince someone. 142 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 2: So we worry about artificial intelligence. It's going to be 143 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 2: very beneficial from a business, commercial, personal life perspective, but 144 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 2: every piece of technology has a dark side, and criminal 145 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 2: exploitation of it will be a real problem for us 146 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 2: into twenty twenty five and beyond. 147 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment, with more scams too 148 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: that you can look out for in twenty twenty five. Chris, 149 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: stay with me, we'll be right back. I'm talking today 150 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: to Chris Sheen from National Australia Bank. Bucketless scams, what 151 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: are they? 152 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 2: Bucketless scams were really a great example probably and I'm 153 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 2: assuming you would have been to this show and the 154 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 2: Tailor Swift tour last year where obviously those tickets, those 155 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 2: tickets sold out in seconds. So bucket list scams are 156 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 2: scams where the criminals are targeting events that they know 157 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 2: will be hugely popular, are likely to be oversubscribed in 158 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 2: terms of ticket sales, and they'll flood social media online 159 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 2: platforms with fake ticket offerings, and people are desperate to 160 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 2: go and see these shows. They will sign up and 161 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 2: pay money thinking they're going to get a ticket they 162 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 2: and they don't. Obviously they could ripped off. And there 163 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 2: were thousands of these associated with Taylor Swift. There's some 164 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 2: you know. We've got the Australian Open tennis right now, 165 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 2: the men's women's singles finals will absolutely be targeted by 166 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:30,239 Speaker 2: by criminals. We've got other major oasis Metallica et cetera 167 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 2: coming to Australia this year. You can guarantee that the 168 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 2: criminals will be and we're not dealing with the scalpus 169 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 2: he used to hang out the front of the entertainment 170 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:39,839 Speaker 2: center and sell you an oble price ticket that it 171 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 2: would at least give you a seat. We're dealing with 172 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 2: fake tickets at an industrial scale being sold. So that's 173 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 2: what we may. 174 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 1: I have actually bought Oasis tickets and now I'm going 175 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: to go and have to check those remote access scams 176 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: targeting businesses. What's that about. 177 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, remote access scams have been around for a 178 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 2: long time and I'd say there'd be a very high 179 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 2: proportion of your listeners have had some version of the 180 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 2: phone call that's purporting to come from their internet service 181 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 2: provider telling them they've got a problem with their service 182 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 2: and if you could just helpfully download some software, we'll 183 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 2: be able to fix that problem for you. Banks broadly 184 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 2: in Australa have been pretty effective in cracking down on 185 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 2: those types of scams and against individual consumers. So the 186 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 2: criminals will always find the lowest point in the ecosystem, 187 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 2: and so what they're targeting now is businesses and the 188 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 2: way they do that is instead of using emails or 189 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 2: text messages. They must make it. They'll make a direct 190 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 2: phone call to the business, tell them that either their 191 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 2: internet provider has the internet service has issues, or they're 192 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 2: banking their business banking channel has an issue, and they 193 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 2: will socially engineer the person on the other end of 194 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 2: the phone, the innocent business person, to download to download software. 195 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,439 Speaker 2: But then we'll expose everything that they do on their 196 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 2: computer to the scam er at the other end. So 197 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 2: a part of that conversation, I'll convince the business to 198 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 2: log onto their business accounts. Obviously that means passwords and 199 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 2: balance of the bank accoun and all that sort of 200 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,079 Speaker 2: stuff is exposed, and it will go from there. 201 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: Okay, And finally, phishing scams, they've evolved a lot over 202 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: the years. Is it still a problem a major problem? 203 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 2: Well, phishing is at the heart of every almost every scam, 204 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 2: because well, phishing is not particularly sophisticated in and of 205 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 2: itself in terms of its technological application. It's a phone call, 206 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 2: a text message, or what's happened in email. It's all 207 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 2: really is as a way for a criminal to make 208 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 2: contact with their target victim and to engage that person 209 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 2: in an exchange and a conversation. Once they have that 210 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 2: hook in, that's when the I guess I call it 211 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 2: the dark magic really, but it's where they are sophisticated. 212 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 2: It's their ability to socially engineered to psychologically manipulate their target, 213 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 2: either through creating a sense of urgency or a fear 214 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 2: of missing out, or a combination of those things to 215 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 2: get them to get the victim to make a payment. 216 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 2: But those fishing vectors will never change any communications methodology 217 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 2: that allows people to share information with each other utilized 218 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 2: by criminals for fishing. So it goes back to where 219 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 2: we started sewn. If you see something is something's presented 220 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 2: to you on a digital platform, doesn't matter what it is, 221 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 2: and in particular, if it's not something that you're expecting 222 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 2: or not something that you've asked to receive, you have 223 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 2: to treat it with a really healthy degree of skepticism 224 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 2: and don't respond immediately. We tend to go snap decision 225 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 2: and try and answer questions immediately. My advice is hang 226 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 2: up the phone, delete the text message, stop protect, and 227 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 2: check before you send any money. 228 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:33,319 Speaker 1: Good place to leave it. Chris, thanks for talking to 229 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: Fear and Greed. 230 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 2: You're on your shaw and thank you Now. 231 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: It's Christian Executive Group investigations at National Australia Bank. Is 232 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: the Fear and Greed Business Interview. You join us every 233 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed business 234 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: news for people who make their own decisions. I'm Seane Elmer. 235 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:48,199 Speaker 1: Enjoy your day.