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Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

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Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, December seventeen, twenty twenty five. Thoughts and prayers.

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Speaker 1: It's the easiest and most glib of social media platitudes.

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Speaker 1: I'd like to be seen expressing sorrow, but I won't

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Speaker 1: be going deeper. After the death of George Floyd, it

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Speaker 1: was a black square when the Iranian government murdered girls

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Speaker 1: for removing their veils, it was a performative haircut. Now

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Speaker 1: it's a lengthy post expressing shock and horror. It's something

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Speaker 1: that Jews have been telling us to expect, that racism

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Speaker 1: and suspicion morphing into bullets ripping through flesh. In the

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Speaker 1: aftermath of the weekend's Bonda Beach massacre, in which fifteen

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Speaker 1: people were murdered, including a ten year old girl, some

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Speaker 1: of the loudest performative mourners were people who've spent the

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Speaker 1: years since October seven, twenty twenty three, demonizing Israel and Zionists.

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Speaker 1: At the same time, and there's been a flood of

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Speaker 1: take care of yourself messaging from schools, workplaces and well

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Speaker 1: meaning people on WhatsApp advising parents to shield their children

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Speaker 1: from this news that's changed the world. They're going to

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Speaker 1: inherit today the Australians. Yonni Bashan joins me to talk

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Speaker 1: about how this story is changing as the sounds of

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Speaker 1: sirens fate. At six point forty seven pm on Sunday night,

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Speaker 1: bullets started flying at Bondai Beach, and well before any

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Speaker 1: of us really knew what was going on, we were

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Speaker 1: getting reports and calls about a big police event down

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Speaker 1: at the beach. You and I both work at The

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Speaker 1: Australian and across the country and in Sydney, all of

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Speaker 1: our staff suddenly clocked on, even the ones who weren't working.

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Speaker 1: I started filing stories. You raced down to Bondai Beach.

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Speaker 1: But it wasn't long on Sunday before opinions started to flow.

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Speaker 1: Once it was clear that this was a shooting, that

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Speaker 1: it had targeted Jewish people at a Hunnaker event, and

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Speaker 1: that many people were dead and seriously injured, social media

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Speaker 1: started lighting up with the old cliche thoughts and prayers,

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Speaker 1: people saying that they were shocked, and some of those

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Speaker 1: people were also posting amazing eyewitness vision of what they'd

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Speaker 1: seen that's been incredibly useful for us. What was your

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Speaker 1: reaction as you started to see those opinions coming in,

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Speaker 1: not just.

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Speaker 2: Facts, I mean, I think in the vacuum of fact,

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Speaker 2: opinion arrives. And we've seen that in so many other scenarios.

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Speaker 2: We saw it during the Bondi Junction stabbing event. That

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Speaker 2: was a mass casualty event, and everyone had an opinion

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Speaker 2: on the motivation for that before we eventually found out

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Speaker 2: who was behind it and what their motivation was. And

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Speaker 2: we saw the same thing with the Link Cafes age

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Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen, and there are still divided opinions over

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Speaker 2: what was cruly motivating that. In the end, with this

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Speaker 2: particular event, I took a moment when I was down

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Speaker 2: at the beach to sort of catch up on the facts, because,

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Speaker 2: as you would know, there are so many sources of

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Speaker 2: information rushing in at the same time, and when you're

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Speaker 2: standing at a police court and waiting for an event

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Speaker 2: to happen, such as are coming out or an eyewitness

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Speaker 2: to turn up, you can get lost in what's happening

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Speaker 2: around you, and you can forget that there are other

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Speaker 2: sources of information coming in from the hospitals, from the

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Speaker 2: police headquarters, from the politicians, and so I just took

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Speaker 2: a beat to step back, go through my phone, have

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Speaker 2: a look at Twitter, have a look at Instagram, see

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Speaker 2: some of the footage that was coming in. And that's

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Speaker 2: when I saw some of the opinions cropping up on

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Speaker 2: my screen. And what surprised and slightly galled me was

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Speaker 2: that the people who were expressing these opinions, the thoughts

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Speaker 2: and prayers, the shock, not so much remorse, but certainly

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Speaker 2: they're surprised that an event like this would happen at

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Speaker 2: Bondo Beach were the very people who, in my mind

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Speaker 2: and in the mind of a lot of Jewish people

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Speaker 2: around Australia have been watching for the past two years,

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Speaker 2: animating this discussion and animating it to an extent where

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Speaker 2: we have felt unsafe, where it's been largely unsafe for

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Speaker 2: us to express our Jewish identity in a really wholesome

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Speaker 2: way and in a way that in Australia we've always

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Speaker 2: been able to do. It's never been a problem to

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Speaker 2: say to someone in this country that you're Jewish. It

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Speaker 2: now has been a problem for the past two years,

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Speaker 2: and it's something that I know a lot of Jews

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Speaker 2: are self conscious about. You can imagine it You're having

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Speaker 2: a conversation with someone you've never met before, and they

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Speaker 2: might ask you where you're from, and if you say

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Speaker 2: that you're from Israel, as I am at best, they

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Speaker 2: might be uncomfortable with that because morally responsible people are

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Speaker 2: supposed to have an opinion on wars that are taking

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Speaker 2: shape around the world. We're supposed to have an opinion

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Speaker 2: on Russia and Ukraine, We're supposed to have an opinion

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Speaker 2: on Israel and Kamas, And so when you express that

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Speaker 2: to someone, they don't really know what to say. And

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Speaker 2: on the other end of that spectrum of people who

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Speaker 2: have very strong opinions about that and might judge you accordingly.

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Speaker 2: So it's been tough.

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Speaker 1: It's been interesting watching you go through that. We're really

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Speaker 1: good friends, and I often get extremely annoyed and angry

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Speaker 1: on your behalf about slights that you're receiving or telling

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Speaker 1: me about or that I observe, and you are, I

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Speaker 1: think dealing with those with on a lot more of

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Speaker 1: an even keel than I am. I'm enraged and you

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Speaker 1: are dealing with it quite calmly. But do you actually

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Speaker 1: feel calm? And has your opinion change since Sunday?

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Speaker 2: I don't think my opinion has changed the the thread

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Speaker 2: environment in this country. I think my feeling about the

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Speaker 2: threat environment was always very much deligned with what our

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Speaker 2: Jewish leaders had been warning and what the Israeli government

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Speaker 2: had been saying for quite a long time, which is

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Speaker 2: that a city in Australia will almost certainly come under

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Speaker 2: some form of attack motivated by hatred towards Jews at

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Speaker 2: some point in the future. And I remember distinctly, after

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Speaker 2: Alex Rivchin's home was attacked, he was one of the

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Speaker 2: first people to say, it's not a matter of if,

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Speaker 2: but when. And I don't think anyone quite expected that

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Speaker 2: what would happen at Bondi Beach A would occur, and

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Speaker 2: be that it would be of such a significant scale,

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Speaker 2: with such an intelligence failing underpinning at I think what

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Speaker 2: we expected was stronger leadership on the issue of anti

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Speaker 2: Semitism and what again remained so striking and galling about

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Speaker 2: this situation. I've just come back from a press conference

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Speaker 2: with the Prime Minister and I asked him, why haven't

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Speaker 2: you announced that a suite of anti Semitism measures that

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Speaker 2: can be instituted or rolled out at a point in

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Speaker 2: the future. Why Are we having a conversation about gun

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Speaker 2: laws right now? It seems rather like a distraction and

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Speaker 2: he wasn't really to give a very satisfactory answer on

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Speaker 2: that control.

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Speaker 3: That's not true. The report is not accurate. The meeting

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Speaker 3: yesterday had front and center a commitment Prime Minister today

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Speaker 3: can be in a meeting a national cab following the

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Speaker 3: evil anti Semitic terrorist attack directed at members of the

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Speaker 3: Jewish community celebrating Hahne Gert Sydney's Blondo Beach. This is

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Speaker 3: talking document that was.

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Speaker 2: Present State prints to push you, and I can tell

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Speaker 2: you from my conversations with people overseas, people in Israel

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Speaker 2: and elsewhere, they have woken up this morning and texted

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Speaker 2: me saying, are we really having a conversation about gun

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Speaker 2: law reform? Twenty four hours after what happened to Bondopage.

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Speaker 2: So I think that's really striking. And I do wonder

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Speaker 2: as well if the information that we obtained from the

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Speaker 2: press conference about the presence of an ISIS flag might

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Speaker 2: provide the Prime Minister with an escape hatch down a

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Speaker 2: separate path away from hardcore anti Semitism into just pure Judadism.

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Speaker 4: I also confirmed that the vehicle which is registered to

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Speaker 4: the younger male attained IEDs. But I also confirm that

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Speaker 4: it contained two homemade ISIS flags.

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Speaker 2: That would be a shame too, because this isn't just

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Speaker 2: a matter of puatism. It's he shouldn't be attempting to

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Speaker 2: separate what occurred, or he shouldn't try to delineate between

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Speaker 2: this being an ISIS motivated attack, or this being a

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Speaker 2: Hamas motivated attack or an Iranian motivated attack. It was

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Speaker 2: attack that specifically targeted Jewish people, and that's not within dispute.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the idea of antisemitism being racism, or being a

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Speaker 1: deliberate targeting of Jews, and any attack on Jews being

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Speaker 1: an act of anti Semitism, all those ideas are actually

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Speaker 1: not that clear in the minds of some people apparently,

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Speaker 1: but they're clear to me. Like the Hamas attack on

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Speaker 1: October seven, was that resistance or whether he oppressed people

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Speaker 1: sort of breaking out, No, it was an antisemitic terrorist

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Speaker 1: attack clearly because the victims were Jews overwhelmingly. There were,

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Speaker 1: of course, some non Jews who were caught up in

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Speaker 1: the chaos, including some Muslim security guards and people like that.

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Speaker 1: When those heartbroken emojis and prayer hands. I think what

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Speaker 1: you've identified in a piece for The Australian is the

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Speaker 1: hypocrisy of those people you were speaking about before. We're

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Speaker 1: talking about people like Abbi Chatfield, Mary Costikidas, Randa abdel Fhatar,

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Speaker 1: people who have spoken loud and clear about their dislike

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Speaker 1: of Israel, their belief that Zionism is evil and that

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Speaker 1: Zionism is somehow a genocidal project, as opposed to just

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Speaker 1: being what it actually is, which is the belief that

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Speaker 1: Jewish people deserve a homeland. So why do you think,

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Speaker 1: given their views are pretty clear, I would say they

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Speaker 1: were verging towards, if not actually anti Semitic. Why bother

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Speaker 1: with the prayer hands and the broken hearts and the

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Speaker 1: shock and horror.

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Speaker 2: It's a great question, and that was again so surprising

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Speaker 2: and striking about it. That's why when I saw it,

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Speaker 2: I thought to myself, your hypocrites. You are the people

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Speaker 2: who've been building this for the past two years. And

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Speaker 2: I want to give these people that benefit of the doubt.

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Speaker 2: I want to imagine in my heart of hearts that

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Speaker 2: this is not the outcome they wanted. And I don't

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Speaker 2: think you would believe that either. I don't think most

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Speaker 2: ripe thinking people would assume that this was an outcome

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Speaker 2: that any one of these people wanted. These people are activists,

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Speaker 2: and they have a specific goal in their mind, and

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Speaker 2: they have a certain type of language and rhetoric that

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Speaker 2: they're using. I guess the issue is is that Jewish

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Speaker 2: leaders and Australians in general, you don't need to be

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Speaker 2: an ally of the Jewish community to say this. They've

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Speaker 2: been saying to these people, your language is hate field,

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Speaker 2: you are using specific terms like globalized, the Intifada, and

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Speaker 2: you were deliberately trying to cancel a certain group of

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Speaker 2: people from polite society, those people being Zionis. This use

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Speaker 2: of the word Zionism as a cover for Jews has

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Speaker 2: been one of the most insidious phrases to enter the

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Speaker 2: modern lexicon. I mean, the word Zionism has been around

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Speaker 2: for decades, but it's usage now in common parlance has

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Speaker 2: been such that I'm deeply cynical about the way that

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Speaker 2: most of these people use it.

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Speaker 4: To me.

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Speaker 2: When I hear zionis, so just hear jew.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, as you've written, it's a fancy word for Jew.

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Speaker 1: But I'm assign I believe that Israel has a right

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Speaker 1: to a homeland, just like I think that you are

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Speaker 1: a feminist although you're not a woman, because you believe

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Speaker 1: that women should be equal.

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Speaker 2: That would be their cover, wouldn't it. Yeah, Well, when

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Speaker 2: I refer to Zionist, I'm not specifically referring to Is.

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Speaker 2: I'm referring to anyone who happens to have a belief

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Speaker 2: system aligned with Zionism or who believes in Zionism. I

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Speaker 2: think that's rubbish. I think they know what they're doing

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Speaker 2: when they use the term Zionism. They're talking about us.

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Speaker 1: Coming up more of my conversation with Jonni Bishan, I

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Speaker 1: think there's something more cynical at the base of the

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Speaker 1: blooming in content about Zionism or zios. It's I think

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Speaker 1: a group of people who identified a vacuum in the

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Speaker 1: culture or an opportunity in the cult to get a

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Speaker 1: lot of likes and go viral. They were talking about

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Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter, then they were talking about trans rites,

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Speaker 1: then they started talking about October seven. Some people in

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Speaker 1: the kind of online commentary space I think on social media,

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Speaker 1: and Runner abdel Feta would be one, have been talking

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Speaker 1: about Palestine four years. This is clearly an issue that

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Speaker 1: she deeply believes in even though I disagree. Abby Chatfield,

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Speaker 1: on the other hand, was not a scholar of the

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Speaker 1: Middle East before October seven, twenty twenty three. Clementine Ford,

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Speaker 1: I would say, fits into the same basket. So isn't

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Speaker 1: there a very cynical exploitation of this crisis in the

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Speaker 1: Middle East where a really rational opinion to have would

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Speaker 1: be this is horrible. I hate the fact that everybody's dying,

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Speaker 1: and it's way too complex for me to have an

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Speaker 1: opinion on.

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Speaker 2: With or to just say what happened on October seven

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Speaker 2: was horrible and I could never possibly support the actions

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Speaker 2: of hamas prescribe terrorist group. And when I hear about

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Speaker 2: the rapes that occurred at the Nova festival, when I

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Speaker 2: heard about the indiscriminate killings or the families that were

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Speaker 2: burned in their homes, yes, that is absolutely horrible. And

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Speaker 2: then it would be just as justifiable position to say

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Speaker 2: I also don't like war, and I don't like what

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Speaker 2: Israel's done in Gaza, and I don't like seeing a

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Speaker 2: really high civilian death count. That's something that no one

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Speaker 2: wants to see. Israelis don't want to see it either.

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Speaker 2: The part that's so perverse and deranged to me is

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Speaker 2: that throughout this conflict, you and I would have encountered people,

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Speaker 2: either at rallies or doing our jobs, or people we

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Speaker 2: meet at the pub or wherever, who seem to just

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Speaker 2: have a very galvanized view on this conflict. It's polarized.

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Speaker 2: That would probably be the better word, in which if

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Speaker 2: you have a view about Israel's war in Gaza, you

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Speaker 2: cannot possibly have a view about Kamas. I've found it

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Speaker 2: really hard to find a person who can say to me,

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Speaker 2: I really don't like Kamas. Horrible people wish they weren't

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Speaker 2: involved in anything to do with the administration of Gaza,

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Speaker 2: wish they would just go away. I also don't like

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Speaker 2: what the Israeli government is doing in Gaza either. I

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Speaker 2: just wish this war'ld end. I'm finding a very limited

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Speaker 2: number of people who occupy that middle space. Everything so polarized,

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Speaker 2: but people don't talk about what doesn't rate. And we're

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Speaker 2: in the same business. We're in the entertainment business. We

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Speaker 2: want to speak to our readers about what they want

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Speaker 2: to hear, and we want to also te them what

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Speaker 2: we think they should hear.

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Speaker 1: I think the tone of that conversation too, has really

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Speaker 1: created a fear about news content or about coverage of

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Speaker 1: this war among people who shouldn't be afraid of the news.

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Speaker 1: I'm because I'm a parent exposed to a lot of

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Speaker 1: communications directed at parents. Here's how you know, Five ways

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Speaker 1: that you can talk to your kids about what happened

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Speaker 1: at Bondi Beach. How about turning off news media for

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Speaker 1: a couple of days, keep your kids close, and change

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Speaker 1: the subject. Is the tone of communications I'm seeing and getting,

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Speaker 1: and I think a lot of that is very well meaning.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, kids are scared. It is really scary. But

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Speaker 1: I don't think that after the attack on Pearl Harbor

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen forties that parents in America or Australia

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Speaker 1: turned their televisions off and told the kids not to watch.

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Speaker 1: I don't think after JFK's assassination in the sixties or

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Speaker 1: the Vietnam War, that parents were telling their kids they

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Speaker 1: didn't need to worry about this, go and read a

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Speaker 1: book like these kids are going to inherit the world

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Speaker 1: that we've created for them. They need to know about

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Speaker 1: what's going on. In my view, do you remember learning

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Speaker 1: about the news? Are engaging with the news as a

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Speaker 1: kid and what that was like for you.

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Speaker 2: Well, I remember that, particularly in this country. I think

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Speaker 2: we've been extremely lucky. We're not exposed to weekly terrorist

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Speaker 2: attacks of the kind that I know are occurring in

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Speaker 2: other parts of the world, and particularly where I'm originally from,

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Speaker 2: in Israel, And I know that in Israel, similar efforts

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Speaker 2: to shelter and mollycoddle children after a terrorist attack don't

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Speaker 2: really exist. There's very much focus on resilience, in just

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Speaker 2: getting out and living your life and thumbing your nose

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Speaker 2: at terrorists by getting on with life. I just think

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Speaker 2: that is something that we're not used to in this country.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure if that should be I despise the

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Speaker 2: term of the new normal. I don't think we're entering

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Speaker 2: a new normal. I think this is an anomalous, horrific

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Speaker 2: event that occurred on Sunday. It'll be up to parents

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Speaker 2: as to what they want to expose their children too.

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Speaker 1: But there's a way to talk to kids about these

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Speaker 1: kinds of things where you focus on the heroes and

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Speaker 1: the helpers. You talk about mister Akhmed, the tobacconists who

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Speaker 1: tackle one of the shooters to the ground. You you

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Speaker 1: talk about the Bond Eye detective who hid behind a

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Speaker 1: tree and shots our crime dead. You talk about the

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Speaker 1: off duty corps who rushed to Bond Eye, the uniformed officers,

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Speaker 1: the ambulance, the off duty doctors who found themselves compressing

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Speaker 1: wounds in doing CPR. In any dramatic event, you can

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Speaker 1: always find a ray of light to help kids get

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Speaker 1: through it. But they have a right to know what's

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Speaker 1: going on.

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Speaker 2: I think, of course they do. But I think you're

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Speaker 2: right too that we should be maximizing the stories of courage, bravery, loyalty,

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Speaker 2: service duty. Those are things that are missing from all

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Speaker 2: the Hollywood movies now. All the Hollywood movies we see

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Speaker 2: now about depressing things about betrayal and anger and murder,

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Speaker 2: and we should be talking about more positive things, and

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Speaker 2: we should be talking about the positives arising out of this.

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Speaker 2: And the stories that are arising out of what occurred

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Speaker 2: on Sunday are just utterly extraordinary, and they continue to

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Speaker 2: develop in a similar fashion. We talk about how to

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Speaker 2: solve this issue moving forward. In terms of educating people

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Speaker 2: about anti Semitism. One of the things that surprises me,

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Speaker 2: particularly about the left side of politics or the progressive left,

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Speaker 2: is that they have been so willing to embrace certain

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Speaker 2: minority groups. I don't need to name any particular one,

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Speaker 2: but academic institutions, childcare centers, corporations have gone out of

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Speaker 2: their way to accommodate certain minorities in the spirit of

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Speaker 2: social justice and in the spirit of inclusion. Why is

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Speaker 2: it so hard to do that for a minority population

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Speaker 2: like the Jews, which is subject to actual violence, not

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Speaker 2: just microaggressions. I don't understand why the progressive left has

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Speaker 2: been so willing and capable to do that for some

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Speaker 2: groups but not for others. In fact, the progressive left

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Speaker 2: seems to be decidedly against doing that for the Jews.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, how on earth did anti semitism, which is a

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Speaker 1: form of racism, become a progressive value. It's ridiculous. I

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Speaker 1: think the answer can only be that there's in our society, sadly,

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Speaker 1: a latent fear and hatred of Jews, and if you

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Speaker 1: scratch the surface, it comes bubbling up.

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Speaker 2: I'm also somewhat convinced that there is a certain derangement

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Speaker 2: that exists amongst these people in which they think that

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Speaker 2: talking about Zionism and Zios and genocide and ethnic cleansing

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Speaker 2: has no concert quins, and that they are entirely valid

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Speaker 2: and justified in expressing themselves in that way. I think

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Speaker 2: what I'd like to see from our Prime Minister, from

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Speaker 2: our leaders, is someone to just say you have to

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Speaker 2: stop doing that. This isn't a freedom of speech issue.

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Speaker 2: This is an issue of hate and incitement. This is

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Speaker 2: not protest anymore. There is a difference, and this is

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Speaker 2: what I wrote about in the piece. There is a

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Speaker 2: difference between protest and criticism of government handling of a

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Speaker 2: war and incitement to violence. And for the people who

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Speaker 2: still need to be convinced that their words have consequences,

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Speaker 2: you just need to look at Bondo Beach. It's happening.

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Speaker 2: This is real, and you don't just need to look

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Speaker 2: at Bonda Beach. The Jewish community saw this coming. We

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Speaker 2: saw it happening in Washington. Two people were murdered there,

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Speaker 2: and we saw it happen in Manchester. It was only

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Speaker 2: a matter of time before it came here. What we

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Speaker 2: didn't know was that it was going to be an

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Speaker 2: order of magnitude bicker over here several perhaps.

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Speaker 1: Janni Bijon, thank you very much.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Johnny Bichan is a senior journalist with The Australian. You

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Speaker 1: can check out his reporting right now at the Australian

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Speaker 1: dot com dot a u