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Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

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Speaker 1: It's Monday, March thirty, twenty twenty six. New leader Angus

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Speaker 1: Taylor has saved the Federal Coalition from certain doom, according

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Speaker 1: to the latest news poll for The Australian, which also

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Speaker 1: shows a whopping majority of Australians opposed to the Iran War.

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Speaker 1: The Liberal Party has dumped its best known sitting MP

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Speaker 1: in Victoria, with Moira Deeming, who sued former leader John

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Speaker 1: Pizzuto over a women's rights clash, dumped by a pre

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Speaker 1: selection committee in her own seat. Those stories alive right

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Speaker 1: now at the Australian dot com dot yu. Jackie O

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Speaker 1: Henderson will be called as a witness to claim that

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Speaker 1: Carl Sandalans subjected her to a prolonged campaign of bullying

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Speaker 1: and harassment, an allegation Sandalans will strongly deny. That's just

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Speaker 1: one of the scoops in Steve Jackson's media diary today.

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Speaker 1: Jacko's here in just a moment. Steve Jackson edits The

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Speaker 1: Australian's Media Diary and Steve, if you thought Carlin JACKIEO

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Speaker 1: the radio show was good Carl versus JACKIEO. The court

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Speaker 1: case is going to be even better.

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Speaker 2: Oh, the courtroom drama is going to eclipse anything they

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Speaker 2: did on their radio show. It's going to be bigger

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Speaker 2: than ben her.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So what's happening your reporting today that ARN is

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Speaker 1: considering calling JACKIEO as a witness against Carl Sandalance.

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Speaker 2: That's what they're planning to do. So we'd all wondered

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Speaker 2: what had happened to Jackio and this. She'd come out

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Speaker 2: previously and said, hey, look, there's a little bit of

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Speaker 2: a misunderstanding about my role and what's happened with me

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Speaker 2: in all of this, and then all of a sudden

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Speaker 2: she went quiet again. And it turns out, according to

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Speaker 2: my sources, she has actually tipped an absolute bucket on

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Speaker 2: Carle Standlance behind the scenes when she first went to management.

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Speaker 2: And now they're planning on calling her as their star

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Speaker 2: witness and pitting Kyle and JACKIEO against each other in

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Speaker 2: court as they try to warn their way out of

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Speaker 2: this two hundred million dollar lawsuit.

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Speaker 1: So Kyle is suing for eighty five million dollars the

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Speaker 1: balance of his contract, and this is this part of

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Speaker 1: a court case where the lawyers do something called discovery,

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Speaker 1: they try to work out what they've got, who they

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Speaker 1: can call as witnesses, what they can get from the

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Speaker 1: other side in terms of emails and text messages and

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Speaker 1: so on. So they will be seeking all of Kyle's

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Speaker 1: communications with Jaqio throughout time. He says he hasn't been

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Speaker 1: allowed to communicate with her since this all blew up

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Speaker 1: on air of a while ago. What do they think

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Speaker 1: JACKIEO would say in court that.

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Speaker 2: Would help them? I mean, this is the problem, right is,

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Speaker 2: you don't do discovery unless you have some sense of

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Speaker 2: what you're going to find, because it has a nasty

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Speaker 2: habit of uncovering all sorts of unwanted information. So from

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Speaker 2: Arn's point of view, they know what Jackio's full complaints

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Speaker 2: are and they've alluded to it in court. Tom Blackburn

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Speaker 2: Essie who's the senior silk representing AA, and they said

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Speaker 2: this isn't limited to what Kyle said on air on

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Speaker 2: February twenty on their last show together. It's not just

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Speaker 2: about that ten minute tirade where he attacked her professionalism.

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Speaker 2: She's not just said I can't work with Kyle because

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Speaker 2: he's had that one blow up, that this is a

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Speaker 2: pattern of behavior, that he's acted like this to her

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Speaker 2: for years and it's finally she snapped. Of course, then

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Speaker 2: you've got Kyle coming out in front of court going, hey,

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Speaker 2: it's no different to how I've always behaved, and that's

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Speaker 2: exactly her point.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well he will be calling as evidence for him,

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Speaker 1: no doubt, countless exchanges where he has had to go

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Speaker 1: at her, where she's had to go at him, where

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Speaker 1: they've both participated in some kind of revolting stunt or other,

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Speaker 1: you know, asking a thirteen year old girl if she's

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Speaker 1: had sex, or getting people to urinate, and guess who's

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Speaker 1: making the sound.

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Speaker 2: Don't we?

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Speaker 1: All the girls here were not all of them, but

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Speaker 1: a lot of them have recorded themselves. Yeah, and the

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Speaker 1: boys will try and figure out who's flaps made that we.

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Speaker 1: I don't like this game.

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Speaker 2: If you can't handle some bads, just step back.

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Speaker 1: I love it when courts get into this really sort

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Speaker 1: of unedifying matter and barristers have to say, well, you're

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Speaker 1: on there's a program known as Carlin Jackie O, and

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Speaker 1: this is a skit on the show about urination.

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Speaker 2: Yes, my learned friend has correctly adduced who was urinaching

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Speaker 2: at them?

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Speaker 1: I mean, the point that Kyle will be making is

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Speaker 1: that this was what ARN was buying from these two

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Speaker 1: as contractors. And that's what makes it different from a

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Speaker 1: normal employment law matter.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Normally, an employee would be able to say, I've been

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Speaker 1: dut it in some way, I've been unfairly dismissed, or

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Speaker 1: I was bullied or something along those lines. Contracts are

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Speaker 1: much more complex, aren't they. Arn was contracting these two

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Speaker 1: individuals to deliver a product called the Kyl and Jackie

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Speaker 1: O Show. Now they can't deliver that. Surely Arn is

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Speaker 1: right that Kyle has failed to deliver the product.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they are right. He's saying that. Obviously he's happy

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Speaker 2: to turn up and do it on his own. He's

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Speaker 2: happy to work with any co hosts they throw at him.

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Speaker 2: So he's trying to come up with solutions the problem

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Speaker 2: he has here, and it's quite devastating from a human

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Speaker 2: you know, when I put the journo media gossip writer

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Speaker 2: cap to one side for a moment, is that these

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Speaker 2: are two people with twenty seven years of history, twenty

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Speaker 2: seven years of text messages, twenty seven years of emails,

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Speaker 2: twenty seven years of let's face it, there's going to

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Speaker 2: be jokes. There's going to be remarks about colleagues. There's

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Speaker 2: going to be all this unsavory, unseemly communication and correspondence

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Speaker 2: between them that, when read out in black and white

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Speaker 2: in court, is going to seem devastating to both of them.

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Speaker 1: This is why these matters often settle, isn't it? Because

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Speaker 1: they might be saying unpleasant things to one another or

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Speaker 1: joking in an unpleasant way about politicians or business figures

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Speaker 1: or celebrities. But they also might be agreeing that the

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Speaker 1: boss is an idiot or the company is stupid, or

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Speaker 1: gloating about how they can't believe they are and signed

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Speaker 1: a two hundred million dollar deal with them in the

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Speaker 1: first place. And courts are savvy. Judges are smarter than

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Speaker 1: allowing a business to use the court process to just

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Speaker 1: get rid of a contract that they don't like. Right.

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Speaker 1: That's the issue here, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: The problem is is the judges aside. They have to

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Speaker 2: listen to all the evidence, and that evidence gets reported

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Speaker 2: every day, and it is treated so seriously and earnestly

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Speaker 2: that you know. It's that thing that comes down to

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Speaker 2: defamation cases where people say dig two graves because you

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Speaker 2: go after revenge. L you go out for something like

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Speaker 2: this to try to get revenge against aaren, and you're

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Speaker 2: eighty five million dollars and it uncovers a whole heap

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Speaker 2: of embarrassing comments and anecdotes and alcations. So if Jackie's

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Speaker 2: made all a series of claims about him bullying and

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Speaker 2: belittling her, does he really want to have all that

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Speaker 2: thrown about or tossed about in the media when he's now,

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Speaker 2: let's face it, unemployed and he needs to get another job.

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Speaker 1: As he says, he's got mortgages to pay, just like

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Speaker 1: everyone else.

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Speaker 2: Just like everyone else.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I sure is that in touch with a common person?

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Speaker 2: Actually, well, I was going to say, just like everyone

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Speaker 2: else who owns a mansion and has been earning or

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Speaker 2: was it seven hundred and ninety thousand dollars a month.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's the sort of money that you never need

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Speaker 1: to work again. But Kyle obviously gets a lot of

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Speaker 1: his value and self worth from work, he said outside

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Speaker 1: court last week. But he just wants to get back

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Speaker 1: to work. The fact that he's now taken this action

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Speaker 1: means that no one is going to put him on

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Speaker 1: air anywhere ever again, doesn't it.

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Speaker 2: You wouldn't think until this has played out. And for him,

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Speaker 2: this is why you will see a lot of people

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Speaker 2: saying he's going to have to settle because once they

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Speaker 2: go through discovery and see what arena going to table,

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Speaker 2: and look, they've both put together legal team, So this

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Speaker 2: is a battle of the titans in court. Whether or

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Speaker 2: not Kyle has bullied and berated and belittle Jackie O

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Speaker 2: and it's subjected to a campaign of unfair harassment is

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Speaker 2: almost beside. The point is there's going to be days

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Speaker 2: and days and days of these allegations supposedly being lobbed

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Speaker 2: about in court, and you know what does that do

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Speaker 2: to his value long term? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean we sound like we're kind of disapproving of

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Speaker 1: this process, but obviously we want this to get to

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Speaker 1: court because it would just be sensationally entertaining, wouldn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I look sensationally entertaining. You do have a lot

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Speaker 2: of empathy for people who are going through this because

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Speaker 2: you know, anyone who goes through court, it's like a

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Speaker 2: heartbreaking process. I've given evidence three times and every time

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Speaker 2: going up there to give evidence and know that you're

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Speaker 2: going to be grilled, there's nothing enjoyable about it, and

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Speaker 2: none of those cases were even really about me, So

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Speaker 2: you know, it's one of those things that I do

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Speaker 2: feel sorry for both of them. Yes I will be there,

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Speaker 2: Yes I will have my popcorn, and yes I'll be

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Speaker 2: telling everyone every little snippet that I can find out

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Speaker 2: about it. But at the same time, I do not

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Speaker 2: envy either of them.

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Speaker 1: Oh the humanity, Well yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, newsrooms are

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Speaker 1: very stressful places to be and also they are a

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Speaker 1: lot of fun, but sometimes there are raised voices and

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Speaker 1: hot tempers. Someone else who's been accused of bullying is

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Speaker 1: Matthew McGrain, a producer who maybe not many people would

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Speaker 1: have heard of, but he got himself involved in a

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Speaker 1: dispute with Network seven. Now that's been resolved.

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Speaker 2: What's happened there, Well, this is exactly what we're sort

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Speaker 2: of talking about with the Carle Sanderlans situation with aarn Is.

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Speaker 2: He sued Channel seven for what he claimed was unfair treatment,

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Speaker 2: that they'd overlooked an injury, that he'd been overlooked for

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Speaker 2: a promotion that he was entitled to at Sunrise, And

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Speaker 2: next thing you know, they've gone through all his emails,

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Speaker 2: They've spoken to all these colleagues, and they've come up

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Speaker 2: with their argument, their defense, which is he's a misogynist

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Speaker 2: and a bully who picks on women in the news.

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Speaker 2: Again untested claims, but it's aired publicly for the first

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Speaker 2: time last month. All of a sudden, the case is

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Speaker 2: quietly settled. I'm told he's now leaving without very much money,

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Speaker 2: because you know, that is just going to be devastating

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Speaker 2: to his reputation. Even having those allegations played out. There's

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Speaker 2: also these unseemly claims about him using the ABC's flagship

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Speaker 2: investigative show as a bargaining chip in his own personal compact. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: He brought this into the public domain by appearing in

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Speaker 1: a story by Louise Milligan on Four Corners, which was

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Speaker 1: basically about you know how evil networks heaven was. It's

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Speaker 1: not just women who say they cop it in this culture.

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Speaker 1: Why are you speaking out?

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Speaker 2: Because if you don't speak out, nothing gets changed.

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Speaker 1: And it's very unusual in that kind of report to

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Speaker 1: have a source or an on camera interviewee who is

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Speaker 1: still working at the organization. Isn't it very rare? It

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Speaker 1: was a great get for Luise Milligan, but he's remained

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Speaker 1: employed all this time.

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Speaker 2: It's remarkable, well Milligan, actually she actually managed to get

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Speaker 2: I think three, maybe even four people who were still

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Speaker 2: working at seven. Having spoken to employment lawyers, they often

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Speaker 2: say that the worst contracts in Australia are ones that

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Speaker 2: you sign with a television network. You sign away all

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Speaker 2: your rights and you get very little in return. So

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Speaker 2: a great get for her strong story. The difference with

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Speaker 2: Matt McGrain is that seven is saying he boasted effectively

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Speaker 2: that he'd signed a contract with four Corners, saying I'm

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Speaker 2: going to give this interview and you can only Aready

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Speaker 2: five release it, and that he then was sort of

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Speaker 2: trying to use that as leverage, that threat that he

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Speaker 2: was going to allow his interview to be played out

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Speaker 2: publicly as leverage to get them to pay him what

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Speaker 2: they say were millions in compensation. And again untested whether

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Speaker 2: or not he's needed to manipulate the taxpayer funded media

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Speaker 2: broadcaster into sort of doing his bidding to try to

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Speaker 2: get him money.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and to be fair to him. His allegation again

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Speaker 1: seven in that full Corners report was that they had

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Speaker 1: not treated him fairly and not taken into account his disability.

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Speaker 1: He used a wheelchair and he'd injured himself while trying

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Speaker 1: to make his way home in his wheelchair. That was

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Speaker 1: the allegation that seven didn't really care right either way.

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Speaker 2: It's a really sort of sordid dispute that shows you,

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Speaker 2: in no uncertain terms, exactly what Kyle Sandlands will be

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Speaker 2: looking at when it comes to trying to take on

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Speaker 2: a big media organization.

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Speaker 1: Coming up the latest on a weather presenter whose unfair

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Speaker 1: dismissal case has taken a big new twist, and JACKI,

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Speaker 1: I can't let you go without asking for an update

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Speaker 1: on the Amber Sherlock situation. This is, of course, the

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Speaker 1: lady from white jacket Gate, the former weather presenter who

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Speaker 1: was threatening to sue Channel nine oversacking her around the

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Speaker 1: time of her fiftieth birthday, calling them agist and sexist.

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Speaker 1: I've made this clear two and a half hours ago.

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Speaker 1: But if it's an issue, I can get on out

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Speaker 1: of here. He's an issue.

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Speaker 2: Go and grab a jacket, Jenny, as someone able to

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Speaker 2: grab me a jacket, please.

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Speaker 1: She's had more to say during the week. What's happening there?

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, I gotta tell you at the moment

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Speaker 2: it feels like, you know, put your hand up if

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Speaker 2: you're not trying to see a media company. Everyone's having

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Speaker 2: a crack. She's claimed that nine is both ages and sexist.

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Speaker 2: Obviously nine is defending that, but the allegations themselves haven't

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Speaker 2: gone down well with her colleagues because what she's saying

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Speaker 2: is agist, is that there are younger women who weren't

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Speaker 2: quite as experienced as her or had been giving favorable

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Speaker 2: treatment because they're only thirty nine as opposed to forty nine.

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Speaker 2: What I'm being told by management in there is no

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Speaker 2: these young women or younger women weren't being given preferential treatment.

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Speaker 2: Her job was made redundant. It's now being filled by

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Speaker 2: four different people taking turns, so there's no one has

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Speaker 2: been given the job. But that also these reporters who

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Speaker 2: are filling in as weather presenter in Sydney all really experienced,

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Speaker 2: all multi skilled, so to suggest that they were given

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Speaker 2: favorable treatment just because of their age is incorrect. On

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Speaker 2: top of that, she's said that Fiona Deer promised her

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Speaker 2: a job there for life and that she'd wheel her out.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure why she thought that might be some

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Speaker 2: sort of binding verbal contract that there you go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean to her credit ambusherlock. He's an expert

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Speaker 1: weather presenter. She's a great talent on TV. I saw

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Speaker 1: her every night on nine years for literally decades, and

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Speaker 1: I found it very impressive as a professional. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is the most awkward thing in her claim is

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Speaker 1: that she sat down with head of News Fiona Deer

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Speaker 1: in the cafe downstairs at North Sydney headquarters of nine

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Speaker 1: and Fiona said, oh, no, no, your job's not at

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Speaker 1: risk late last year. I feel for Fiona Dea because

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Speaker 1: Fion probably wouldn't have known that that job was targeted

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Speaker 1: for redundancy, and even if she had, she couldn't have said.

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Speaker 2: So, no one is crazy enough to go Claire, you

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Speaker 2: got a job for life. Hey, next week we're going

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Speaker 2: to sack it like that. Stuff like that just doesn't happen.

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Speaker 2: But it's also not a binding contract. It doesn't mean anything.

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Speaker 2: If you tell me that I, you know, I deserve

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Speaker 2: a pay rise, it doesn't mean I'm marching to payroll

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Speaker 2: next day. Claire promised me the pay rise. Where's the form?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 2: It's just it's a nicety, it's a pleasantry. What does

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Speaker 2: it mean nothing? As Amber's found out, well.

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Speaker 1: Jacka, I can assure you that, as far as I'm

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Speaker 1: aware right now, you are not about to be replaced

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Speaker 1: by some hot, young twenty.

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Speaker 2: Five year old Hello. Good luck to him.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining me.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me on.

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Speaker 1: Steve Jackson edits the Diary in the Australian's Media section.

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Speaker 1: It's live right now at the Australian dot com dot au.