WEBVTT - The police cold case unit that's paranoid about podcasts

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<v Speaker 1>From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Christinamiot.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Monday, June two, twenty twenty five. There are fears

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<v Speaker 1>China could launch an invasion of Taiwan, triggering a global conflict.

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<v Speaker 1>Cooperation on security and military exercises between Australia and the

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<v Speaker 1>United States has been bumped up in anticipation of such

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<v Speaker 1>an event. The Coalition says it's open to striking a

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<v Speaker 1>deal with the government on its proposed superannuation tax, but

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<v Speaker 1>only if Treasurer Jim Chalmers drops Labour's tax on unrealized

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<v Speaker 1>capital gains. That exclusive story is live right now at

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<v Speaker 1>the Australian dot com dot au. The New South Wales

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<v Speaker 1>police unit tasked with solving cold case murders won't share

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<v Speaker 1>crucial documents and information with victims families and it's all

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<v Speaker 1>because of a podcast by The Australian that exposed a murderer.

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<v Speaker 1>Today why police are gun shy about podcast investigations After

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<v Speaker 1>the global success of The Teacher's pet In twenty twenty one,

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<v Speaker 1>Kelly Slater Reagan spoke on the phone with Detective Inspector

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<v Speaker 1>Nigel Warren, the boss of the New South Wales Police

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<v Speaker 1>Unsolved Homicide Unit. Kelly is herself a former cop, but

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<v Speaker 1>this wasn't a chinwag about her time in the force. Nope.

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<v Speaker 1>Kelly had questions about the status of the investigation into

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<v Speaker 1>the murder of her second cousin, the notorious gangster Johnny Reagan,

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<v Speaker 1>who was assassinated in a Merrickville backstreet in nineteen seventy four.

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<v Speaker 1>The crime has gone unsolved for more than half a

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<v Speaker 1>century and it is investigated in the Australian's newest podcast series,

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<v Speaker 1>The Gangster's Ghost. Kelly was on a quest to uncover

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<v Speaker 1>evidence that might finally unmask the three or four shooters

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<v Speaker 1>who pulled the trigger on that September day in nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>seventy four, and the homicide file, held tightly by the

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<v Speaker 1>cold case unit within the New South Wales Police Force,

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<v Speaker 1>was a crucial piece of the puzzle.

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<v Speaker 2>And then he said, oh, that we probably wouldn't get

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<v Speaker 2>a homicide file because it's seemed to still be an

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<v Speaker 2>active case. And he said, like they're never suspended, they're

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<v Speaker 2>just sitting there waiting for more information.

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<v Speaker 1>It was a blow for Kelly, who, like many members

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<v Speaker 1>of his family, has been haunted by Johnny Reagan's criminal reputation.

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<v Speaker 1>They want to know once and for all if it's deserved.

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<v Speaker 2>And I said, oh, so, when was the review done.

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<v Speaker 2>And he said, well, we did an investigation into the

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<v Speaker 2>death of two thousand and four, and then in twenty

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<v Speaker 2>sixteen the matters are reviewed again and they plan on

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<v Speaker 2>reviewing them every five to ten years. And I said, well, no,

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<v Speaker 2>nobody from my family was contacted.

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<v Speaker 1>But here's the thing. If that thirty seven minute phone

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<v Speaker 1>call had happened just a few years earlier, the outcome

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<v Speaker 1>might have been very different.

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<v Speaker 2>And then he said, we're a bit gunshoy giving out

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<v Speaker 2>information because there was a podcast where the next of

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<v Speaker 2>kin did a podcast on Lynett Dawson.

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<v Speaker 1>The Australians podcast The Teacher's Pet revealed in twenty eighteen

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<v Speaker 1>that Lynette Dawson, who's now known by her maiden name

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<v Speaker 1>Lynette Simms, had been murdered by her husband, Chris Dawson,

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<v Speaker 1>at their Bayview home in nineteen eighty two. It was

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<v Speaker 1>a global smash hit, thrusting the mystery of what happened

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<v Speaker 1>to the young mum into the spotlight. Chris Dawson was

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<v Speaker 1>arrested and charged with Lynette's murder in December of twenty eighteen.

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<v Speaker 1>He was convicted by Justice Ian Harrison in twenty twenty two,

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<v Speaker 1>following a long legal fight for a permanent stay of proceedings.

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<v Speaker 3>Christopher Michael Dawson on the charts that on are about

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<v Speaker 3>eight January nineteen eighty two, at Dayview or elsewhere in

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<v Speaker 3>the state of New South Wales.

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<v Speaker 4>You did murder Lynette Dawson.

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<v Speaker 3>I find you guilty or message family.

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<v Speaker 1>Dawson is currently serving a twenty four year sentence for

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<v Speaker 1>the crime, but maintains his wife left their home on

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<v Speaker 1>the Northern Beaches of her own accord. He's applied for

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<v Speaker 1>special leave to appeal his conviction in the High Court,

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<v Speaker 1>arguing he suffered a forensic disadvantage improving his innocence due

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<v Speaker 1>to the almost four decade delay in bringing charges. The

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<v Speaker 1>Unsolved Homicide Unit is also at the center of Headley

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<v Speaker 1>Thomas's latest investigative podcast for The Australian. It probes the

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen ninety three disappearance of lennox Head mother Bronwyn Winfield,

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<v Speaker 1>and family members like Bronwyn's brother Andy Reid, say they've

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<v Speaker 1>been left out of the loop by police. iiO basically

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<v Speaker 1>said for their hands.

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<v Speaker 2>A tried.

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<v Speaker 3>We can't do any more than what we've done and

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<v Speaker 3>we don't have any new evidence.

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<v Speaker 4>They've got no intention of putting any more work into it.

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<v Speaker 1>The New South Wales Police told The Australian they conducted

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<v Speaker 1>a review into Johnny Reagan's murder earlier this year and

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<v Speaker 1>they say there's not enough new evidence to justify formally

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<v Speaker 1>reopening the investigation. We've used AI to bring that police

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<v Speaker 1>statement to life.

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<v Speaker 5>The case remains open under State Crime Commands Homicide Squad,

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<v Speaker 5>Unsolved Homicide Team, where it continues to be actively monitored

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<v Speaker 5>for any new information or evidence that could assist in

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<v Speaker 5>advancing the investigation. Police remain committed to providing regular updates

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<v Speaker 5>to the victims family, whilst also ensuring the integrity of

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<v Speaker 5>the investigation is preserved and that no potential future investigative

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<v Speaker 5>avenues are compromised.

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<v Speaker 3>Look, this is not a problem I have not encountered

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<v Speaker 3>before being a police reporter of a certain vintage, I

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<v Speaker 3>have grown up with what you could only call a

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<v Speaker 3>perennial disconnect between journalists who are pursuing matters involving the

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<v Speaker 3>police and the police themselves. And I understand that I

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<v Speaker 3>understand its evolution.

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<v Speaker 1>Matthew Condon is a senior reporter with The Australian and

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<v Speaker 1>the host of The Gangster's Ghost podcast.

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<v Speaker 3>However, in twenty twenty five, we're in a situation where

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<v Speaker 3>the game has changed completely, certainly from a journalistic perspective,

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<v Speaker 3>and with the advent specifically of podcasting, whereby a journalist

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<v Speaker 3>now has a platform where they can indeed examine a

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<v Speaker 3>case over many hours of audio. Behind those hours of

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<v Speaker 3>audio are many, many hundreds of thousands of words of script,

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<v Speaker 3>hundreds of interviews with people, a very very deep dive

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<v Speaker 3>into subjects. So you have the evolution of technology which

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<v Speaker 3>is providing storytelling on a depth and breadth that has

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<v Speaker 3>never been possible before. And you have, in my view,

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<v Speaker 3>and it's not a criticism, but you have the police

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<v Speaker 3>who have stood still as the technology has marched forward

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<v Speaker 3>beyond them and out of sight of them, I believe.

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<v Speaker 3>So something's not working. It's no longer a feasible relationship

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<v Speaker 3>because we are seeing stories of great depth and research

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<v Speaker 3>that really require on behalf of the public require a response,

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<v Speaker 3>and that gulf no longer applies or just appears to

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<v Speaker 3>be either ignorant stubborn or imprudent. I think that there

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<v Speaker 3>needs to be a sort of deatons and where in

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<v Speaker 3>the middle, whereby we can assist each other. I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>the ambition is the same resolution for the public, for

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<v Speaker 3>society at large, resolution for the families of victims, which

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<v Speaker 3>is the most pertinent. And I think if we're all

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<v Speaker 3>heading towards the same target, we could in fact help

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<v Speaker 3>each other.

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<v Speaker 1>So is it loyalty or a lack of resources that's

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<v Speaker 1>preventing police from moving these cold case investigations forward.

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<v Speaker 3>Their work schedule is utterly relentless, twenty four to seven,

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<v Speaker 3>three sixty five days a year, and they should be

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<v Speaker 3>really congratulated, if not revered, for the work they do

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<v Speaker 3>on our behalf. So just let me make that very clear.

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<v Speaker 3>But I'll give you a specific example with my research

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<v Speaker 3>with the Gangster's Ghost. Kelly Slater, Reagan and I have

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<v Speaker 3>been working on this for over four years. Four years

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<v Speaker 3>is a long time to work on a single story,

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<v Speaker 3>and in those four years you talk to an enormous

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<v Speaker 3>volume of people. The thing with the Reagan case is

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<v Speaker 3>it might be fifty years, but there are still people

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<v Speaker 3>alive with brilliant memories, with stories with anecdotes and with

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<v Speaker 3>information as we've discovered that fills in the picture even

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<v Speaker 3>after all these years. But that requires patients, it requires

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<v Speaker 3>the time itself, and the police are permanently on a

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<v Speaker 3>mouse wheel trying to resolve hundreds, if not thousands of issues.

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<v Speaker 3>But the podcast then allows us to establish the background,

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<v Speaker 3>to lay out the research and then present the findings.

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<v Speaker 3>I do understand the issue when you know, we ask

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<v Speaker 3>for cooperation and information and they're just in this unending,

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<v Speaker 3>forward moving frenzy of their own work. I've discovered with

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<v Speaker 3>these cold cases of some vintage, and certainly with the

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<v Speaker 3>Gangster's Ghost and the Reagan case, certainly with the Tea

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<v Speaker 3>each is pet and certainly with the Bronwin case. In

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<v Speaker 3>all three you have a scenario whereby newer generations of

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<v Speaker 3>police are unfortunately put in the position whereby they are

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<v Speaker 3>having to deal with sometimes shocking ineptitude of prior investigators thirty, forty,

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<v Speaker 3>fifty years ago. But you will not find a police

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<v Speaker 3>officer who will today, who will disparage the work of

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<v Speaker 3>their predecessors, because it's fellow members of a great tradition

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<v Speaker 3>in terms of the police and detective work. And I

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<v Speaker 3>totally understand that, but often this has to do with

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<v Speaker 3>not wishing to lift the rusted piece of corrugated iron

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<v Speaker 3>because you're afraid to see what's underneath it. And most

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<v Speaker 3>of the time they know what that is, and it

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<v Speaker 3>is a failure of initial investigators, be it through a

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<v Speaker 3>lack of technology, be it through a lack of knowledge,

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<v Speaker 3>or just critical errors that were made back in the day.

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<v Speaker 3>That then becomes a factor in why one should not

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<v Speaker 3>release certain informations, especially historical information, because it can emerge

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<v Speaker 3>as a discredit to the grand tradition of the force itself.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up inside Kelly Slater Reagan's search for the truth

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<v Speaker 1>about her gangster cousin, Kelly Slater Reagan applied to join

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<v Speaker 1>the New South Wales Police Force on a dare from

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<v Speaker 1>a girlfriend. The ghost of her notorious gangster cousin followed

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<v Speaker 1>her up the ranks, his name popping up in conversations

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<v Speaker 1>with colleagues and in interviews with higher ups. At some

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<v Speaker 1>point before she left the force, Kelly looked up Stuart

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<v Speaker 1>John reagan extensive criminal history and found it on microfilm.

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<v Speaker 1>But years later, when she decided to delve deeper into

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<v Speaker 1>her family's past, she was told that criminal history said

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<v Speaker 1>to fill ten boxes was missing. After months of back

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<v Speaker 1>and forth with the New South Wales Police Unsolved Homicide Unit,

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<v Speaker 1>and perhaps when it became evident Kelly wasn't going away,

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<v Speaker 1>an expert archivist located the records attached to another matter

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<v Speaker 1>where Reagan was a person of interest.

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<v Speaker 6>I've read through it like there's some interesting stuff in there.

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<v Speaker 6>A lot of stealing, load of traffic offenses, absolutely no

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<v Speaker 6>charges for murder. There is charges in there for rape

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<v Speaker 6>and a lot of drop charges which I find interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>Kelly's search for coronial documents from a nineteen seventy seven

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<v Speaker 1>inquest into Johnny Reagan's murder was equally fraught. Statements made

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<v Speaker 1>by more than one hundred witnesses before the introduction of

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<v Speaker 1>digital archives, as well as ballistic reports and bank and

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<v Speaker 1>real estate records, had also vanished. Here's how the New

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<v Speaker 1>South Wales Coroner's Court explained it. We've used AI to

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<v Speaker 1>bring this correspondence to life.

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<v Speaker 4>It appears the file was retrieved at some previous time

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<v Speaker 4>in the past along with some other files, and then

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<v Speaker 4>refiled with another slash other files instead of being returned

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<v Speaker 4>to its correct location.

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<v Speaker 1>Though it's not immediately clear where the records were found.

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<v Speaker 1>They also eventually landed in Kelly's inbox.

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<v Speaker 6>Thank God, like this is the mother lad. I'm grateful

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<v Speaker 6>to those that helped us get there. Obviously they've gone

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<v Speaker 6>through a hell of a lot of boxes.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, she's been astonishing. But the very first time I

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<v Speaker 3>ever met Kelly in person, I just knew this woman

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<v Speaker 3>was an investigator to be reckoned with. She is absolutely

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<v Speaker 3>no nonsense. She does not take no for an answer.

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<v Speaker 3>Kelly is a force of nature and I was in

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<v Speaker 3>total admiration at how she was utterly relentless and how

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<v Speaker 3>she managed to be told that documents have been completely

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<v Speaker 3>lost and two years of still banging on the door

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<v Speaker 3>for portions of files to bob to the surface. Because

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<v Speaker 3>of Kelly changed the shape of the investigation itself and

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<v Speaker 3>gave us some much greater and fuller picture than we

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<v Speaker 3>might have had. So I credit her extraordinary personality, perseverance

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<v Speaker 3>and muscle in many respects with that success.

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<v Speaker 1>Matthew Condon is a senior reporter with The Australian and

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<v Speaker 1>the host of the Gangster's Ghost podcast. Subscribers here new

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<v Speaker 1>episodes first at Gangstersghost dot com dot AU. And remember

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<v Speaker 1>you can access all the nation's best journalism anytime at

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<v Speaker 1>the Australian dot com dot au