1 00:00:04,019 --> 00:00:06,900 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:12,480 Sean Aylmer: One in five Australians are apparently planning to delay their retirement. 3 00:00:12,719 --> 00:00:14,909 Sean Aylmer: It should be good news for employers grappling with a 4 00:00:14,910 --> 00:00:18,268 Sean Aylmer: labour shortage, but there's still a reluctance to attract and 5 00:00:18,329 --> 00:00:23,160 Sean Aylmer: upskill older workers. Angela Anasis is the Executive General Manager 6 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:25,980 Sean Aylmer: at Randstad. Angela, welcome back to Fear and Greed. 7 00:00:26,700 --> 00:00:29,310 Angela Anasis: Great to be here, Sean. 8 00:00:29,310 --> 00:00:32,459 Sean Aylmer: This is a story close to my heart, I hate 9 00:00:32,460 --> 00:00:37,290 Sean Aylmer: to admit, but it's true. Your Randstad's 2023 work monitor 10 00:00:37,290 --> 00:00:40,500 Sean Aylmer: report examined some of these trends in the workplace. Why 11 00:00:40,500 --> 00:00:42,210 Sean Aylmer: are people delaying their retirement? 12 00:00:43,260 --> 00:00:45,960 Angela Anasis: It's an interesting one, one in five as well, it's quite 13 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,830 Angela Anasis: a considerable number, isn't it? And look, there's a couple 14 00:00:49,830 --> 00:00:54,600 Angela Anasis: of factors, and certainly the first and foremost would be 15 00:00:54,690 --> 00:00:57,210 Angela Anasis: cost of living, and I think we've seen that everywhere, 16 00:00:57,210 --> 00:01:01,980 Angela Anasis: cost of living pressures and delaying retirement for that reason. 17 00:01:01,980 --> 00:01:05,970 Angela Anasis: But it's not the only reason, it's certainly a key reason, 18 00:01:06,599 --> 00:01:10,409 Angela Anasis: but we also found through our research that social connections 19 00:01:10,410 --> 00:01:13,950 Angela Anasis: and really enjoying work and being in touch with new 20 00:01:13,950 --> 00:01:16,559 Angela Anasis: and old buddies as well, and being able to do 21 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,190 Angela Anasis: that is certainly adds a lot of value. I know 22 00:01:20,190 --> 00:01:23,099 Angela Anasis: one of our clients that I was speaking to recently 23 00:01:23,099 --> 00:01:27,810 Angela Anasis: is Allianz, they were working very closely with University of Swinburne, 24 00:01:27,870 --> 00:01:30,810 Angela Anasis: and what they were doing is having a look at 25 00:01:31,170 --> 00:01:35,970 Angela Anasis: what played into those factors and that importance of social connection, 26 00:01:35,970 --> 00:01:38,190 Angela Anasis: and a lot of that was about the mental health 27 00:01:38,190 --> 00:01:41,010 Angela Anasis: and wellbeing just as much as, I guess, the economic 28 00:01:41,010 --> 00:01:42,210 Angela Anasis: factors as well. 29 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,298 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So how long are people planning to work for? 30 00:01:45,299 --> 00:01:46,440 Sean Aylmer: When do people retire? 31 00:01:47,639 --> 00:01:51,180 Angela Anasis: Well, that one I can't crystal ball, but what I 32 00:01:51,180 --> 00:01:55,080 Angela Anasis: will say is that they're certainly looking at one in ten 33 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:58,590 Angela Anasis: are saying that the retirement may not be possible until 34 00:01:58,590 --> 00:02:02,400 Angela Anasis: they're 75 or older, so it is creeping up. 35 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,699 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Now, one of the big issues of course is 36 00:02:05,699 --> 00:02:10,290 Sean Aylmer: training and development for older workers. And I certainly worked 37 00:02:10,290 --> 00:02:15,719 Sean Aylmer: in organisations where they just without even thinking put training 38 00:02:15,719 --> 00:02:19,830 Sean Aylmer: and development opportunities in front of younger workers rather than 39 00:02:19,830 --> 00:02:21,809 Sean Aylmer: older workers, and I thought this was a pretty confronting 40 00:02:21,809 --> 00:02:26,580 Sean Aylmer: stat from your report, 15% of those over 45 have 41 00:02:26,580 --> 00:02:31,590 Sean Aylmer: received training and development opportunities in the last 12 months, 15%, 50% 42 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,740 Sean Aylmer: of 18 to 25 year olds. Why is there so 43 00:02:34,740 --> 00:02:37,200 Sean Aylmer: much reluctance to train and upskill older workers? 44 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:42,450 Angela Anasis: I know, it's crazy, isn't it? And certainly there's unfortunately 45 00:02:42,450 --> 00:02:46,919 Angela Anasis: a perception thinking that employees are saying that employees are 46 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:52,379 Angela Anasis: reaching retirement age, that they may not be sticking around, 47 00:02:52,380 --> 00:02:55,530 Angela Anasis: so they're delaying that thinking they should be investing just into 48 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,669 Angela Anasis: the younger cohorts. And certainly that's really, really important too, 49 00:02:59,669 --> 00:03:02,639 Angela Anasis: and they've got some new skills, but in this kind 50 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:06,720 Angela Anasis: of world of work that we're in, so much is 51 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:11,669 Angela Anasis: changing and evolving, and certainly regardless of age or what 52 00:03:11,669 --> 00:03:14,760 Angela Anasis: role you are doing, you're having to keep up. And 53 00:03:14,820 --> 00:03:20,700 Angela Anasis: we also know from the work monitor as well, 45 to 67 54 00:03:20,700 --> 00:03:25,020 Angela Anasis: year olds, 69% are actually saying it's really important to 55 00:03:25,020 --> 00:03:29,610 Angela Anasis: them as well. So they really want it, they need it, they want it, and they 56 00:03:29,610 --> 00:03:32,370 Angela Anasis: want to be just as relevant, and they certainly want 57 00:03:32,370 --> 00:03:35,459 Angela Anasis: to be able to continue to grow and innovate and 58 00:03:35,580 --> 00:03:39,600 Angela Anasis: certainly get the benefits of having that training and development 59 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:40,170 Angela Anasis: as well. 60 00:03:40,770 --> 00:03:43,410 Sean Aylmer: Is there a sense that older people stick around for 61 00:03:43,410 --> 00:03:46,679 Sean Aylmer: longer, or younger people? I know the national average job 62 00:03:46,679 --> 00:03:51,420 Sean Aylmer: tenure is just 3. 3 years. Is it more likely 63 00:03:51,420 --> 00:03:54,689 Sean Aylmer: that younger workers move on? I suppose where I'm coming 64 00:03:54,690 --> 00:03:57,180 Sean Aylmer: to, if that's the case, investing in training for an 65 00:03:57,180 --> 00:04:01,980 Sean Aylmer: older worker may actually be economically more efficient if younger 66 00:04:01,980 --> 00:04:02,760 Sean Aylmer: people are moving on. 67 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:07,770 Angela Anasis: You're absolutely spot on. So it makes economic sense as 68 00:04:07,770 --> 00:04:12,059 Angela Anasis: well to be hiring older cohorts as well, because what 69 00:04:12,059 --> 00:04:15,720 Angela Anasis: we've also seen in our research is that Gen Z are 70 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,770 Angela Anasis: more likely to move into a new role, and 51% 71 00:04:19,770 --> 00:04:24,210 Angela Anasis: are actively looking for a new job compared to 26%. 72 00:04:24,210 --> 00:04:30,870 Angela Anasis: So certainly our research does suggest it absolutely makes economic 73 00:04:30,930 --> 00:04:34,320 Angela Anasis: sense as well. And when you think about it, when 74 00:04:34,620 --> 00:04:38,520 Angela Anasis: that perception, thinking, oh, well, that person's going to be 75 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,279 Angela Anasis: retiring in five years time, gosh, they're going to be 76 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,910 Angela Anasis: moving on, when you look at those statistics and 50% 77 00:04:44,910 --> 00:04:49,110 Angela Anasis: are looking elsewhere and only 3.3 (years) are going to be moving on, 78 00:04:49,529 --> 00:04:53,640 Angela Anasis: the facts don't stand, do they? So it certainly makes a 79 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,460 Angela Anasis: lot more sense for us to be tapping into that 80 00:04:56,460 --> 00:04:57,450 Angela Anasis: part of the market. 81 00:04:58,110 --> 00:05:00,180 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Angela, we'll be back in a minute. 82 00:05:06,330 --> 00:05:09,779 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Angela Anasis, executive general manager 83 00:05:09,779 --> 00:05:15,150 Sean Aylmer: at Randstad. What about workplace values, are there many differences 84 00:05:15,420 --> 00:05:19,260 Sean Aylmer: in values and I suppose culture between generations? 85 00:05:20,309 --> 00:05:27,360 Angela Anasis: Yeah, there certainly is. Gen Z is still very much 86 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,169 Angela Anasis: about values and ethics and those things are really very, 87 00:05:31,170 --> 00:05:35,190 Angela Anasis: very important as well, but from an older worker, and 88 00:05:35,190 --> 00:05:38,250 Angela Anasis: I'll say older, and I say that myself because I 89 00:05:38,250 --> 00:05:41,009 Angela Anasis: fit into that category as well, very close- 90 00:05:41,009 --> 00:05:42,149 Sean Aylmer: You're one of us. You're okay. 91 00:05:44,700 --> 00:05:47,820 Angela Anasis: Is that there's a lot of values in terms of 92 00:05:49,050 --> 00:05:51,870 Angela Anasis: that other cohort of being able to also pass on 93 00:05:51,870 --> 00:05:55,920 Angela Anasis: a lot of knowledge, and mentoring opportunities, and certainly being 94 00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:01,500 Angela Anasis: able to provide that purpose and that driven impact of 95 00:06:01,500 --> 00:06:06,719 Angela Anasis: making that impact into the workforce and other areas within 96 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:11,309 Angela Anasis: the workforce as well. So certainly there are definitely nuances 97 00:06:11,309 --> 00:06:16,379 Angela Anasis: between the different age groups, but values are certainly, I 98 00:06:16,379 --> 00:06:20,549 Angela Anasis: would say, very, very important for the younger cohorts as 99 00:06:20,550 --> 00:06:25,650 Angela Anasis: well, but possibly looking at different things such as environment 100 00:06:26,010 --> 00:06:29,099 Angela Anasis: and purpose and all of those things that are certainly very, 101 00:06:29,099 --> 00:06:29,969 Angela Anasis: very critical. 102 00:06:30,570 --> 00:06:33,599 Sean Aylmer: So my closest colleague at Fear and Greed is Michael 103 00:06:33,599 --> 00:06:35,699 Sean Aylmer: Thompson, who I do the daily show with, there's 20 104 00:06:35,699 --> 00:06:38,640 Sean Aylmer: years difference between us, I actually think our values are 105 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:43,380 Sean Aylmer: about the same. Sorry Michael, but it's true. But we 106 00:06:43,380 --> 00:06:46,019 Sean Aylmer: just come at things from different ways and it's amazing 107 00:06:46,020 --> 00:06:48,450 Sean Aylmer: how much I can learn from Michael, and I'd like 108 00:06:48,450 --> 00:06:51,120 Sean Aylmer: to think he learns sometimes from me simply because we 109 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,089 Sean Aylmer: approach things differently because of our experiences. 110 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:56,820 Angela Anasis: Absolutely. I think that's a really great way of seeing 111 00:06:56,820 --> 00:07:00,570 Angela Anasis: it, Sean, as well, because that diversity of different perspectives, 112 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,409 Angela Anasis: and whilst the values of purpose may be the anchor 113 00:07:04,410 --> 00:07:07,379 Angela Anasis: points and you may come from a different perspective, they 114 00:07:07,380 --> 00:07:11,730 Angela Anasis: certainly add that lovely diversity of thought. And we know 115 00:07:11,730 --> 00:07:15,960 Angela Anasis: that when there is diversity of thought, diversity of cohorts 116 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,810 Angela Anasis: of different age demographics, and looking at it from a 117 00:07:18,810 --> 00:07:22,440 Angela Anasis: customer perspective, which is the customer group as well, but 118 00:07:22,500 --> 00:07:25,799 Angela Anasis: then you're not looking at everyone in a monolithic kind 119 00:07:25,799 --> 00:07:29,429 Angela Anasis: of way, you certainly get far better economic results as 120 00:07:29,430 --> 00:07:33,210 Angela Anasis: well. So it is really, really important to really tap 121 00:07:33,210 --> 00:07:35,160 Angela Anasis: into that diversity as well. 122 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:39,300 Sean Aylmer: Do you get a sense from the Randstad 2023 work 123 00:07:39,300 --> 00:07:44,549 Sean Aylmer: monitor report or otherwise managing older people versus managing younger 124 00:07:44,549 --> 00:07:46,079 Sean Aylmer: people, is there a difference? 125 00:07:47,069 --> 00:07:51,060 Angela Anasis: Well, in terms of leadership, there are certain things that are going to 126 00:07:51,060 --> 00:07:54,840 Angela Anasis: be more attractive for older workers and some things will 127 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:59,040 Angela Anasis: stay the same. So what we've certainly seen is flexibility 128 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:03,839 Angela Anasis: is actually really important for all demographics, so everyone wants some, 129 00:08:03,839 --> 00:08:06,389 Angela Anasis: and that's been such a hot topic at the moment, 130 00:08:06,750 --> 00:08:10,560 Angela Anasis: but where they're coming from, and to your earlier point, the why 131 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:15,360 Angela Anasis: that sits behind it may be very different reasons. So 132 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:20,219 Angela Anasis: flexibility for a younger person could be that they just 133 00:08:20,219 --> 00:08:23,549 Angela Anasis: want to be spending some time with their children and 134 00:08:23,549 --> 00:08:26,340 Angela Anasis: having that kind of flexibility to drop off their kids. 135 00:08:26,340 --> 00:08:29,910 Angela Anasis: For an older demographic it could be they're actually doing 136 00:08:30,540 --> 00:08:36,300 Angela Anasis: that just for their grandkids, but the end result is 137 00:08:36,300 --> 00:08:40,080 Angela Anasis: still the same, it's still flexibility, but they may be 138 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:44,280 Angela Anasis: coming from a different angle. And we certainly know a lot 139 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,069 Angela Anasis: of older folk as well also want to be able to 140 00:08:47,070 --> 00:08:50,849 Angela Anasis: spend some time on their passion projects as well and 141 00:08:50,849 --> 00:08:54,719 Angela Anasis: other areas of interest as well, so that flexibility is really, 142 00:08:54,719 --> 00:08:59,699 Angela Anasis: really important as well. So, again, flexibility is going to 143 00:08:59,699 --> 00:09:03,600 Angela Anasis: be really important for all demographics, but where you're coming from, 144 00:09:04,590 --> 00:09:07,140 Angela Anasis: I guess the why that sits behind it maybe a 145 00:09:07,140 --> 00:09:08,130 Angela Anasis: little bit different. 146 00:09:08,970 --> 00:09:13,320 Sean Aylmer: One final question, Angela, what about paying conditions? Are older 147 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:15,390 Sean Aylmer: workers missing out on pay rises? 148 00:09:17,219 --> 00:09:23,309 Angela Anasis: The hot topic of pay rises, they absolutely are finding 149 00:09:23,309 --> 00:09:26,460 Angela Anasis: it very difficult at the moment. And look, that's just 150 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,940 Angela Anasis: also across the board in many different areas. So we 151 00:09:29,940 --> 00:09:33,509 Angela Anasis: have a very interesting situation in our workforces at the 152 00:09:33,509 --> 00:09:37,350 Angela Anasis: moment, whilst we've got the lowest unemployment rate for 50 153 00:09:37,350 --> 00:09:41,010 Angela Anasis: odd years and skill shortages in certain areas, we haven't 154 00:09:41,010 --> 00:09:45,480 Angela Anasis: seen huge areas of increases in terms of salaries as 155 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:50,429 Angela Anasis: well. So it is a common thing across many different 156 00:09:50,429 --> 00:09:52,830 Angela Anasis: age brackets. But what I would say is if you're 157 00:09:52,830 --> 00:09:57,900 Angela Anasis: in a particularly tightly held skillset as well, this is 158 00:09:57,900 --> 00:10:01,559 Angela Anasis: the time, this is the candidate's time and this is the 159 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,860 Angela Anasis: time to really be able to show your value and 160 00:10:04,860 --> 00:10:09,450 Angela Anasis: also look at if you can't get financial benefits, have 161 00:10:09,450 --> 00:10:11,819 Angela Anasis: a look at the softer benefits, like I talked about, 162 00:10:11,820 --> 00:10:15,478 Angela Anasis: like flexibility as an example, and other things that are non- 163 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:17,040 Angela Anasis: cash benefits as well. 164 00:10:17,910 --> 00:10:20,220 Sean Aylmer: Very good advice. Angela, thank you for talking to Fear 165 00:10:20,220 --> 00:10:20,639 Sean Aylmer: and Greed. 166 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:22,350 Angela Anasis: Great. Thanks for having me. 167 00:10:22,889 --> 00:10:26,759 Sean Aylmer: That was Angela Anasis, executive general manager at Randstad. This 168 00:10:26,759 --> 00:10:28,829 Sean Aylmer: is the Fear and Greed daily interview. Join us every 169 00:10:28,830 --> 00:10:31,290 Sean Aylmer: morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's 170 00:10:31,290 --> 00:10:35,010 Sean Aylmer: most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.