WEBVTT - How AI is being abused to create child sexual abuse material

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven AM. The

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<v Speaker 1>E Safety Commissioner Julie Van Grant says one hundred thousand

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<v Speaker 1>Australians a month have access to an app that allows

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<v Speaker 1>users to upload images of other people, including miners, to

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<v Speaker 1>receive a depiction of what they would look like naked.

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<v Speaker 1>Predators themselves are found to share know how to produce

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<v Speaker 1>and spread these images and in Australia, the AA tools

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<v Speaker 1>used to create the material are not illegal and all

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<v Speaker 1>the while, Julia Imman Grant says, not a single major

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<v Speaker 1>tech company has expressed shame or regret for their role

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<v Speaker 1>in enabling it all. Today, advocate for survivors of sexual

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<v Speaker 1>assault and director of the Grace Tame Foundation, Grace Tame

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<v Speaker 1>on how governments and law enforcement should be thinking about

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<v Speaker 1>AI and child abuse and whether tech companies will cooperate.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Thursday, September eleventh, and just a warning, the following

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<v Speaker 1>episode contains details of child sexual exploitation. So Grace, it's

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<v Speaker 1>Child Protection Week and at the Grace Time Foundation, you've

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<v Speaker 1>been focused on AI and the potential harms and the

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<v Speaker 1>risks for children. So to begin with, tell me why AI.

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<v Speaker 1>While you're looking at that in particular.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, technology has always been used to facilitate child sexual abuse,

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<v Speaker 2>and child sex offenders.

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<v Speaker 3>Are often among the early adopters self.

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<v Speaker 2>We go back to nineteen eighty six when the then

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<v Speaker 2>US Attorney General did a commission on pornography.

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<v Speaker 3>In their final report.

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<v Speaker 2>They stated very clearly that child sex offenders were using

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<v Speaker 2>computer networks to trade child sexual abuse material, but also

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<v Speaker 2>to network with each other, share tactics of abuse and

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<v Speaker 2>procuring children. In the realm of safeguarding children, there's always

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<v Speaker 2>been a concern about technology, and as we're seeing in

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<v Speaker 2>recent years that technology is becoming more advanced. So if

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<v Speaker 2>we look at even just chatbots, where you can trick

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<v Speaker 2>a chatbot into generating descriptive child exploitation material, you can

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<v Speaker 2>use a chatbot to give you advice on how to

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<v Speaker 2>evade detection. You can ask it what it might do

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<v Speaker 2>or what might be the best course of action. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>in the case of actually being confronted by law enforcement,

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<v Speaker 2>what are the first things that you should say to

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<v Speaker 2>you know, mitigate any potential punishment. Then when it comes

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<v Speaker 2>to tools that are able to generate images, we're seeing instantaneous,

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<v Speaker 2>prolific creation of very realistic abuse material.

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<v Speaker 3>And contrary to.

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<v Speaker 2>Myth that this is harmless, all of these programs that

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<v Speaker 2>generate images or videos have actually been trained on photographs

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<v Speaker 2>of real children, if not existing child exploitation material. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>when we look at, for example, the nature of the

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<v Speaker 2>images that are being generated, that are becoming more and

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<v Speaker 2>more creative, and you know, it's a very low barrier

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<v Speaker 2>to entry for a lot of these programs. Whereas you know,

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<v Speaker 2>if you're producing child exploitation material in the traditional sense,

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<v Speaker 2>you know you would actually have to film real child

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<v Speaker 2>exploitation material, you would potentially edit it and then distribute it,

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<v Speaker 2>whereas now it's a few clicks to prompt programs that

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<v Speaker 2>are capable of learning to generate this material and then

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<v Speaker 2>spread it far and wide.

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<v Speaker 4>You can download an immature two of your classmate, and

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<v Speaker 4>for five cases this is a girls or women. You

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<v Speaker 4>put it into the online website and it generates a

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<v Speaker 4>deep nude, so an accurate depiction of what that person

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<v Speaker 4>would look like naked.

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<v Speaker 1>And this is something that Australia is Easafety Commissioner recently

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<v Speaker 1>pointed out as an area of particular concern just how

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<v Speaker 1>prolific the use of these apps is.

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<v Speaker 3>We have any sense of how many Australian children or

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<v Speaker 3>young people have used.

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<v Speaker 4>It for these particular sites that we're taking action against,

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<v Speaker 4>we know at least one hundred thousand visits. It's a month,

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<v Speaker 4>one hundred thousand visits a month from Australia.

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<v Speaker 1>So what is the legal landscape here and how much

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<v Speaker 1>power does law enforcement have in what sounds like a

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<v Speaker 1>very rapidly changing space.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, there is low hanging fruit for governance for legislators

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<v Speaker 2>to pick off, such as apps like Newdify, apps whose

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<v Speaker 2>sole purpose is nefarious. There's no good intention behind an

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<v Speaker 2>app that is designed to remove.

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<v Speaker 3>The clothing of a clothed.

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<v Speaker 2>Photograph of someone without their consent, presumably, so you know, outlawering.

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<v Speaker 3>Those sorts of apps.

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<v Speaker 2>But it is very hard to keep up because whereas

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<v Speaker 2>in the past with the development and release of technologies,

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<v Speaker 2>there's sort of be a kind of a minimum time

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<v Speaker 2>frame where you could expect something to become publicly available,

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<v Speaker 2>but there's no limits, now there's no or there's very

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<v Speaker 2>few limits, and the technology itself is becoming smarter and

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<v Speaker 2>smarter and faster and faster. So it's very hard for

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<v Speaker 2>legislators to keep up. We need safety by design. We

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<v Speaker 2>need safeguards built into publicly available AI tools or online

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<v Speaker 2>spaces in general in.

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<v Speaker 3>Terms of actually enforcing the law.

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<v Speaker 2>In terms of detecting crime, it becomes a case of

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<v Speaker 2>needing to fight fire with fire. It becomes a case

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<v Speaker 2>of needing to empower law enforcement with the relevant AI

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<v Speaker 2>software to combat these AI rms. We need victim id

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<v Speaker 2>tools available to law enforcement, tools that also can be

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<v Speaker 2>applied to the reviewing process of child exploitation material to

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<v Speaker 2>be able to discern whether it is quote unquote real

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<v Speaker 2>or has been generated by a computer. So yeah, it's

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<v Speaker 2>a complex and it's a rapidly shifting space.

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<v Speaker 1>And when it comes to all of these apps, this tech,

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<v Speaker 1>the default is that they are legal until they're not.

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<v Speaker 1>So when it comes to legislation around this, where does

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<v Speaker 1>Australia sit globally?

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<v Speaker 2>Australia is once a front runner in certain areas and

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<v Speaker 2>then in others we lag. And some of that has

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<v Speaker 2>to do with our privacy laws. Is particularly what we

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<v Speaker 2>were just talking about before in terms of the limitations

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<v Speaker 2>of law enforcement here to actually use victim identification tools

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<v Speaker 2>to speed up the process of you know, otherwise very

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<v Speaker 2>drawn out investigations but in terms of legislating the use

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<v Speaker 2>of and the possession of certain AI tools that are

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<v Speaker 2>used for nefarious purposes, Australia is I think stepping in

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<v Speaker 2>the right direction there. There's obviously so much work to

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<v Speaker 2>be done. It's difficult when we consider the bigger picture

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<v Speaker 2>of the global system in which we are currently operating,

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<v Speaker 2>which is essentially a techno feudal system where you know,

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<v Speaker 2>even governments have no option, essentially a but to buy

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<v Speaker 2>in and it's really the tech industry that is able

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<v Speaker 2>to wield so much power and control.

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<v Speaker 3>Coming up?

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<v Speaker 1>Will governments worldwide stand up to tech companies.

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<v Speaker 5>Let's get some more now on that national roundtable in

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<v Speaker 5>Parliament House where child safety advocates have been discussing the

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<v Speaker 5>threat artificial intelligence poses to child safety. Former Australian of

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<v Speaker 5>the Year and advocate for Survivors of child sexual abuse,

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<v Speaker 5>Grace Tame has been calling on the government to prevent AI.

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<v Speaker 1>Being used to create child abuse material.

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<v Speaker 6>You recently attended around table at Parliament House which was

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<v Speaker 6>around discussing child safety online including AI abuse material. Can

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<v Speaker 6>you tell me a bit about how that went and

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<v Speaker 6>whether or not you get the sense that this government

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<v Speaker 6>is taking the issue as seriously as it should.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it should be commended that we're able to

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<v Speaker 2>have these discussions that bring together a combination of politicians,

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<v Speaker 2>of people who work in the tech industry.

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<v Speaker 3>Of law enforcement, lawyers.

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<v Speaker 2>Child safety advocates, academics who are all essentially working towards

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<v Speaker 2>the same end, and that is keeping children safe from harm.

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<v Speaker 2>I find it hard sometimes not to be cynical. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>we've gone I think broad on change, broad on education

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<v Speaker 2>and awareness raising of the potential harms and the very

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<v Speaker 2>real harms faced by children both on and offline, but

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<v Speaker 2>we haven't gone deeper. I am always struck when I

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<v Speaker 2>have conversations with everyday people who don't work in safe

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<v Speaker 2>guiding children.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm always struck by how little they know, which is to.

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<v Speaker 2>Everyone's detriment and it's to the benefit of perpetrators. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think that we, really, generally speaking, in the broader population,

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<v Speaker 2>have an appropriate level of awareness of just how a

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<v Speaker 2>dark this world is.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so, I mean.

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<v Speaker 1>It's obviously a complex thing to tackle, but specifically, what

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<v Speaker 1>would you like to see from the Australian government.

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<v Speaker 2>So obviously there's been a lot of hype around consent

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<v Speaker 2>education and respectful relationships education rollouts in recent years, and

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<v Speaker 2>while I think they are significant and important milestones, the

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<v Speaker 2>next step is for grooming prevention education that is not

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<v Speaker 2>just targeted towards children, but targeted towards parents, teachers, childcare workers,

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<v Speaker 2>essentially anyone who has a duty of care to a

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<v Speaker 2>young person. And the reason for that is that grooming

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<v Speaker 2>is a highly specialized stratagem of preparing an environment for

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<v Speaker 2>child's actually be used to take place in play in sight,

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<v Speaker 2>and it is, you know, in some ways parallel to

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<v Speaker 2>other forms of non contact offending, but it is very

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<v Speaker 2>specific to the context of adults harming children, and it

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<v Speaker 2>has been conflated in the process of developing these other

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<v Speaker 2>types of harm prevention programs. It has been dangerously conflated

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<v Speaker 2>again to the benefit of perpetrators who really thrive off

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<v Speaker 2>social confusion.

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<v Speaker 3>So I would like to see grooming.

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<v Speaker 2>Prevention education as the next key focus area in terms

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<v Speaker 2>of prevention.

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<v Speaker 3>Broad education will not tick that box.

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<v Speaker 2>It needs to be highly specialized because we're up against

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<v Speaker 2>a high specialized cohort of offenders that's often deliberately harm children,

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<v Speaker 2>and there's also the opportunity to criminalize the possession of

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<v Speaker 2>certain apps that are clearly solely designed to cause harm.

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<v Speaker 1>And you mentioned the power that the tech industry wields.

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<v Speaker 1>Given that, what sense do you get of how successful

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<v Speaker 1>governments can be in getting their cooperation in changing the

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<v Speaker 1>products that they make.

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<v Speaker 2>We've seen very little action on the part of governments

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<v Speaker 2>worldwide to actually stand up to these tech companies that

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<v Speaker 2>are producing products that they.

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<v Speaker 3>Know are used to harm children. You know, with encryption.

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<v Speaker 2>Now embedded in even platforms like Facebook, we're seeing offenders

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<v Speaker 2>grooming children on these platforms and going undetected because there's

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<v Speaker 2>no way to find these conversations.

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<v Speaker 3>Then when it comes to tools.

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<v Speaker 2>That are able to generate images, it is capable obviously.

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<v Speaker 3>Of creating things that don't exist in real life.

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<v Speaker 2>So this ceiling of depravity that reality has doesn't exist online.

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<v Speaker 3>And then the concern.

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<v Speaker 2>Is as well that if you're getting individuals who are

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<v Speaker 2>producing and consuming this ever more depraved material, that when

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<v Speaker 2>they do actually come into contact with a child that

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<v Speaker 2>they are intending to harm, that they are going to,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, push those limits of violence even further because

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<v Speaker 2>they have been desensitized to you know, a quote unquote

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<v Speaker 2>normal boundaries of interaction, but profit is the big motivator

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<v Speaker 2>a certainly over protection.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, Grace, thank you for taking the time to talk

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<v Speaker 1>to me about all of this today.

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<v Speaker 3>Thanks for having me on and Ruby, I really appreciate it.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news today, Australia has condemned an Israeli

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<v Speaker 1>strike on Harmas targets in Qatar that killed six people,

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<v Speaker 1>including the son of Hamas's exiled Gaza chief and top negotiator.

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<v Speaker 1>Qatar is a security partner of the United States and

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<v Speaker 1>has acted as a mediator alongside Egypt in ceasefire talks

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<v Speaker 1>between Israel and Tamas for a ceasefire in Gaza. Hamas

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<v Speaker 1>has described the attack as an attempt to assassinate the

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<v Speaker 1>group's ceasefire negotiation team. Foreign Minister Penny Wong says the

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<v Speaker 1>strike risks an escalation of conflict in the region, and

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<v Speaker 1>the Victorian government has said it will offer financial support

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<v Speaker 1>to businesses in the town of Porapunka as the search

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<v Speaker 1>for alleged gunman Desmond Freeman continues. The details have yet

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<v Speaker 1>to be formally announced. Split premieres Into Allen says the

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<v Speaker 1>community has been carrying a heavy burden since Freeman allegedly

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<v Speaker 1>shot two police officers prompting warnings to the public to

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<v Speaker 1>stay away from the area. I'm Ruby Jones. This is

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<v Speaker 1>seven am. Thanks for listening.