1 00:00:04,050 --> 00:00:06,780 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,870 --> 00:00:10,020 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. Here's a stat that might surprise you. Over the 3 00:00:10,020 --> 00:00:13,950 Sean Aylmer: last 30 years, Australia has experienced the second highest number 4 00:00:13,950 --> 00:00:18,210 Sean Aylmer: of climate litigation claims globally, behind only the United States. 5 00:00:18,510 --> 00:00:21,150 Sean Aylmer: It's a risk that Australian businesses need to be aware 6 00:00:21,150 --> 00:00:24,660 Sean Aylmer: of, particularly as regulations change to help achieve our climate 7 00:00:24,660 --> 00:00:27,630 Sean Aylmer: goals. As always, we're not an investment podcast and we're 8 00:00:27,630 --> 00:00:30,750 Sean Aylmer: not a legal advice podcast either, so this information is 9 00:00:30,750 --> 00:00:33,840 Sean Aylmer: general in nature. Persia Navidi is a partner at Hicksons 10 00:00:33,870 --> 00:00:38,010 Sean Aylmer: Lawyers, specializing in climate and cyber risk. Persia, welcome to 11 00:00:38,010 --> 00:00:38,700 Sean Aylmer: Fear and Greed. 12 00:00:39,150 --> 00:00:40,290 Persia Navidi: Thank you for having me, Sean. 13 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,190 Sean Aylmer: (inaudible) , what are we talking about when we speak 14 00:00:44,250 --> 00:00:49,470 Sean Aylmer: of climate litigation? What are the types of things that I 15 00:00:49,470 --> 00:00:52,830 Sean Aylmer: could identify with when we're talking about this subject? 16 00:00:53,670 --> 00:00:58,560 Persia Navidi: Great place to start, Sean. Climate litigation is effectively litigation 17 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:02,520 Persia Navidi: that is aimed at seeking to achieve climate outcomes or 18 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:06,240 Persia Navidi: climate justice through the courts, whether that be by an 19 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,390 Persia Navidi: administrative law avenue or a corporations law avenue or a 20 00:01:09,390 --> 00:01:14,250 Persia Navidi: human rights law avenue, so it's fairly broad. What we 21 00:01:14,250 --> 00:01:17,130 Persia Navidi: are starting to see in recent times is a bit 22 00:01:17,130 --> 00:01:19,530 Persia Navidi: of a trend over the past few years in the 23 00:01:19,530 --> 00:01:23,819 Persia Navidi: human rights type claims being brought, so we're seeing these 24 00:01:23,819 --> 00:01:28,020 Persia Navidi: cases being brought by shareholders or investors or environmental activists 25 00:01:28,020 --> 00:01:30,959 Persia Navidi: who are interested in seeking these sorts of outcomes or 26 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,319 Persia Navidi: trying to seek these outcomes through the courts. An example 27 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,830 Persia Navidi: is in 2020, we had the case of Sharma and 28 00:01:37,830 --> 00:01:41,310 Persia Navidi: the Minister for the Environment. In that case we had 29 00:01:41,310 --> 00:01:44,520 Persia Navidi: eight children bring an action against the Federal Environment Minister, 30 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,280 Persia Navidi: arguing that the Minister had a duty of care to 31 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:49,500 Persia Navidi: protect young people from the future harm that will be 32 00:01:49,500 --> 00:01:52,350 Persia Navidi: caused by climate change. A ruling in the children's favor 33 00:01:52,350 --> 00:01:56,250 Persia Navidi: was overturned earlier this year, but it does still demonstrate 34 00:01:56,250 --> 00:01:59,040 Persia Navidi: the types of cases that we're seeing in the courts. 35 00:01:59,250 --> 00:02:01,650 Sean Aylmer: Okay. You're talking about human rights legislation. Is there much 36 00:02:01,650 --> 00:02:06,960 Sean Aylmer: environmental legislation where climate litigation evolves or emerges? 37 00:02:08,220 --> 00:02:11,670 Persia Navidi: Well, the climate litigation falls under... it's environmental law. 38 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:12,810 Sean Aylmer: Right. 39 00:02:12,810 --> 00:02:15,930 Persia Navidi: It's a section of environmental law, and the term climate 40 00:02:15,930 --> 00:02:20,040 Persia Navidi: change litigation, it reflects the types of cases that we're 41 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:25,710 Persia Navidi: seeing that are trying to achieve outcomes through the judicial system 42 00:02:26,130 --> 00:02:27,241 Persia Navidi: so far as they relate to the climate. 43 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:27,690 Sean Aylmer: Yeah, okay. 44 00:02:29,820 --> 00:02:32,730 Persia Navidi: There are some cases, we're seeing the cases against corporates 45 00:02:32,730 --> 00:02:35,370 Persia Navidi: as well, so the court cases against corporations, which are 46 00:02:35,370 --> 00:02:38,790 Persia Navidi: focusing on consumer protections. We're seeing those sorts of cases 47 00:02:38,790 --> 00:02:43,770 Persia Navidi: too at the moment and that's an important one for businesses and 48 00:02:43,770 --> 00:02:45,720 Persia Navidi: it's an important one at the moment because we're hearing 49 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:50,700 Persia Navidi: a lot about this term greenwashing, and greenwashing is being targeted a 50 00:02:50,700 --> 00:02:56,220 Persia Navidi: fair bit. That's where companies are making disclosures, statements, commitments 51 00:02:56,220 --> 00:03:01,110 Persia Navidi: that address climate change when potentially those statements aren't substantiated, 52 00:03:01,110 --> 00:03:06,450 Persia Navidi: and that makes them potentially misleading or deceptive. We're seeing 53 00:03:06,450 --> 00:03:09,540 Persia Navidi: cases of greenwashing over in the US. We've had a 54 00:03:09,540 --> 00:03:13,230 Persia Navidi: case of securities class actions commenced against Oatly, the oat milk 55 00:03:13,230 --> 00:03:17,070 Persia Navidi: company over in the US, which alleged potential greenwashing for 56 00:03:17,070 --> 00:03:20,669 Persia Navidi: statements that were made about the company's climate commitments, and 57 00:03:20,669 --> 00:03:22,800 Persia Navidi: we're also seeing there's a case in the courts right 58 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,160 Persia Navidi: now here in Australia. That's the Australian Centre for Corporate 59 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:32,280 Persia Navidi: Responsibility against Santos, one of Australia's largest gas companies. In 60 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,850 Persia Navidi: summary, in August of last year the Australian Centre for 61 00:03:35,850 --> 00:03:40,440 Persia Navidi: Corporate Responsibility commenced these proceedings against Santos over its claims 62 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,500 Persia Navidi: that it provides clean energy natural gas and it plans 63 00:03:43,500 --> 00:03:46,290 Persia Navidi: for net zero emissions by 2040, so there are allegations 64 00:03:46,290 --> 00:03:49,500 Persia Navidi: there of greenwashing. It's going be interesting what happens in 65 00:03:49,500 --> 00:03:51,690 Persia Navidi: that case should it go to a judgment. We might 66 00:03:51,690 --> 00:03:54,210 Persia Navidi: see a bit more of the court's opinion on what 67 00:03:54,210 --> 00:03:56,760 Persia Navidi: greenwashing is as well, so we're very keen to watch 68 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:57,210 Persia Navidi: that one. 69 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:03,210 Sean Aylmer: I presume that sort of litigation, greenwashing particularly, that's going 70 00:04:03,210 --> 00:04:06,300 Sean Aylmer: to be a growth area, because many companies talk about 71 00:04:06,300 --> 00:04:11,100 Sean Aylmer: their environmental credentials, though I'm not sure how many have 72 00:04:11,100 --> 00:04:15,390 Sean Aylmer: very hard and fast tangible evidence of doing it. 73 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,599 Persia Navidi: Well that's exactly it, and that's one of the risks 74 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:20,700 Persia Navidi: that needs to be managed, and that's one of the 75 00:04:20,700 --> 00:04:23,040 Persia Navidi: risks that needs to be considered. If there is a 76 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:25,920 Persia Navidi: policy that is out there that has been put on 77 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,560 Persia Navidi: the website, that's been released to the market about your 78 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,650 Persia Navidi: sustainability policy, your climate policy, what you are doing to achieve 79 00:04:31,650 --> 00:04:35,820 Persia Navidi: certain goals, are the steps being taken behind the scenes 80 00:04:35,820 --> 00:04:39,450 Persia Navidi: to actually achieve those goals and meet those commitments? There 81 00:04:39,450 --> 00:04:43,380 Persia Navidi: needs to be evidence of that, otherwise exactly as you 82 00:04:43,380 --> 00:04:47,429 Persia Navidi: said, Sean, that's a very serious risk of potential litigation 83 00:04:47,460 --> 00:04:50,279 Persia Navidi: for greenwashing, and yes, I do think that there is 84 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,610 Persia Navidi: potential for that to increase for that exact reason. Everyone 85 00:04:53,610 --> 00:04:55,739 Persia Navidi: has one of these policies, but what's being done to 86 00:04:55,740 --> 00:04:58,200 Persia Navidi: actually try and meet those targets? 87 00:04:58,710 --> 00:05:00,960 Sean Aylmer: Are there many rules and regulations governing this? Are there 88 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:05,970 Sean Aylmer: mandatory disclosure requirements from the Government, from Regulators, that a 89 00:05:05,970 --> 00:05:07,469 Sean Aylmer: business can follow on this? 90 00:05:08,250 --> 00:05:10,859 Persia Navidi: Well, that's one of the difficulties and the challenges at 91 00:05:10,860 --> 00:05:14,490 Persia Navidi: the moment. We're trying to manage climate related risks. There 92 00:05:14,490 --> 00:05:18,060 Persia Navidi: is no mandatory disclosure of financial risks as they relate 93 00:05:18,060 --> 00:05:23,190 Persia Navidi: to climate, so any climate related financial risks, it's optional 94 00:05:23,250 --> 00:05:26,610 Persia Navidi: at this stage for the business to be disclosing those 95 00:05:26,610 --> 00:05:30,120 Persia Navidi: risks. Over in the UK we have mandatory disclosure. That 96 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:32,940 Persia Navidi: was introduced and in effect from April of this year. 97 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,300 Persia Navidi: Over in the United States their Securities and Exchange Commission, 98 00:05:36,300 --> 00:05:39,239 Persia Navidi: they've confirmed in March of this year that they've got 99 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,990 Persia Navidi: a proposal to mandate climate risk disclosure by public companies, 100 00:05:43,290 --> 00:05:46,020 Persia Navidi: so it is happening overseas. Our neighbors in New Zealand 101 00:05:46,020 --> 00:05:48,930 Persia Navidi: have also instituted it for banks and insurers. It's a 102 00:05:48,930 --> 00:05:51,001 Persia Navidi: matter of time, I would say, before it (inaudible) 103 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,270 Persia Navidi: introduced here in Australia, but at the moment there are 104 00:05:54,270 --> 00:06:00,419 Persia Navidi: best practice guidelines out there. APRA's released Guide CPG 229 for 105 00:06:00,450 --> 00:06:03,120 Persia Navidi: APRA regulated entities as to what best practice is when 106 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:05,520 Persia Navidi: it comes to managing climate related risk. It includes a 107 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:10,560 Persia Navidi: section on disclosure, but like you've raised, there's no mandatory 108 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:12,210 Persia Navidi: disclosure at this time and that is one of the 109 00:06:12,210 --> 00:06:13,440 Persia Navidi: challenges at the moment. 110 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:15,600 Sean Aylmer: It must be hard for business to get their head 111 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,200 Sean Aylmer: around it though, because it's a new area and perhaps 112 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,859 Sean Aylmer: there's not a lot of expertise in it and regulations 113 00:06:22,860 --> 00:06:26,460 Sean Aylmer: are still forming, shall we say. It must be difficult 114 00:06:26,460 --> 00:06:27,630 Sean Aylmer: for business to manage it? 115 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,589 Persia Navidi: Absolutely. That is one of the challenges at the moment, 116 00:06:31,589 --> 00:06:33,900 Persia Navidi: and I think that one thing I would say in 117 00:06:33,900 --> 00:06:38,279 Persia Navidi: relation to this is knowledge is power, and adapt, don't 118 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:42,120 Persia Navidi: ignore these changes. Have a good understanding of what is 119 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,779 Persia Navidi: happening out there. Have a good understanding of what the 120 00:06:45,779 --> 00:06:49,979 Persia Navidi: Regulator's asking. We have ASIC who's released an information sheet 121 00:06:50,130 --> 00:06:52,740 Persia Navidi: 271 on greenwashing and how to avoid it for certain 122 00:06:52,740 --> 00:06:56,099 Persia Navidi: entities. We have the ACCC who said this year that 123 00:06:56,100 --> 00:06:58,680 Persia Navidi: greenwashing is a target for them and a focus for 124 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:00,960 Persia Navidi: them. We have APRA who's released the guide on best 125 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,599 Persia Navidi: practice for entities that are in its control as well, 126 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:07,289 Persia Navidi: so there is information out there from Regulators. Even if 127 00:07:07,290 --> 00:07:11,040 Persia Navidi: it's not legislated and it's not mandatory at this time, 128 00:07:11,250 --> 00:07:13,500 Persia Navidi: there are some best practices, depending on the type of 129 00:07:13,500 --> 00:07:16,200 Persia Navidi: business it is, that can be taken at this time, and when in doubt, obviously seek the advice and 130 00:07:19,110 --> 00:07:20,370 Persia Navidi: the assistance of an expert. 131 00:07:20,970 --> 00:07:23,070 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me Persia, we'll be back in a minute. 132 00:07:29,250 --> 00:07:33,810 Sean Aylmer: I'm speaking to Persia Navidi, partner at Hicksons Lawyers. Where 133 00:07:33,810 --> 00:07:36,150 Sean Aylmer: does the responsibility lie in this? Is it with the 134 00:07:36,150 --> 00:07:37,740 Sean Aylmer: Executive? Is it with the Board? 135 00:07:38,850 --> 00:07:41,670 Persia Navidi: I think it's a combination of the two. I think 136 00:07:41,670 --> 00:07:45,390 Persia Navidi: it would be both at this stage, but certainly this 137 00:07:45,390 --> 00:07:48,330 Persia Navidi: is a board issue. It's not just an issue for 138 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,870 Persia Navidi: the Executives. It's an issue for everyone across the company 139 00:07:51,870 --> 00:07:53,340 Persia Navidi: and you don't even have to be at board level. 140 00:07:53,550 --> 00:07:56,280 Persia Navidi: Put your hand up and say something if you read 141 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,200 Persia Navidi: something and you think it's going to impact your business, 142 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:02,460 Persia Navidi: but certainly directors have a responsibility. It's not new. It's 143 00:08:02,460 --> 00:08:07,200 Persia Navidi: their duties under the Corporations Act, Section 180 and Section 181, to act 144 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:09,750 Persia Navidi: in the best interests of the company and with due 145 00:08:09,750 --> 00:08:12,240 Persia Navidi: diligence and care so that is not new. That duty 146 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:15,270 Persia Navidi: of directors has always been there, but climate risks are 147 00:08:15,270 --> 00:08:17,700 Persia Navidi: now a very real risk and they have the potential 148 00:08:17,700 --> 00:08:20,610 Persia Navidi: to impact business, and this is why it's part of their duties. 149 00:08:20,610 --> 00:08:23,700 Persia Navidi: It formulates part of their duties now to consider these 150 00:08:23,700 --> 00:08:27,030 Persia Navidi: risks and decide, " How is this going to impact our 151 00:08:27,030 --> 00:08:29,550 Persia Navidi: business? Is it going to impact our business at all? 152 00:08:29,790 --> 00:08:31,830 Persia Navidi: If not, okay, we don't need to do anything, but 153 00:08:31,830 --> 00:08:34,080 Persia Navidi: at least we've considered it. If it is going to 154 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,630 Persia Navidi: impact our business, what steps can we take to mitigate 155 00:08:36,630 --> 00:08:39,870 Persia Navidi: that risk?" So it's certainly an issue that's to be considered 156 00:08:39,870 --> 00:08:40,500 Persia Navidi: at board level. 157 00:08:40,830 --> 00:08:44,099 Sean Aylmer: Okay. It seems that the boardrooms and executives around the 158 00:08:44,100 --> 00:08:47,010 Sean Aylmer: place are just getting their heads around cyber risk, and 159 00:08:47,010 --> 00:08:49,800 Sean Aylmer: now we're putting climate litigation risk on top. I'm just 160 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,740 Sean Aylmer: interested because Persia, you're an expert in cyber risk as 161 00:08:52,740 --> 00:08:57,750 Sean Aylmer: well, what would you say, where's Australian business at in 162 00:08:57,750 --> 00:09:00,390 Sean Aylmer: terms of managing cyber risk at the moment? 163 00:09:01,740 --> 00:09:05,969 Persia Navidi: That's a great question. I think... Cyber risk, it's now 164 00:09:05,970 --> 00:09:09,689 Persia Navidi: established. Maybe 10 years ago when we heard rumblings of 165 00:09:09,690 --> 00:09:12,270 Persia Navidi: it and rumblings of cyber insurance out there, things like 166 00:09:12,270 --> 00:09:15,030 Persia Navidi: that, and now it's very much ingrained. We hear about it all 167 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:18,420 Persia Navidi: the time. We have the Australian Cyber Security Centre, we've 168 00:09:18,420 --> 00:09:21,989 Persia Navidi: got legislation around it, so it's very much established. I 169 00:09:21,990 --> 00:09:26,370 Persia Navidi: think that it still is a board issue. It's no 170 00:09:26,370 --> 00:09:29,670 Persia Navidi: longer the case that cybersecurity is an IT issue or a 171 00:09:29,670 --> 00:09:33,210 Persia Navidi: technology issue only. It is certainly an issue that needs 172 00:09:33,210 --> 00:09:36,150 Persia Navidi: to be looked at at board level, and it is. It is 173 00:09:36,150 --> 00:09:38,040 Persia Navidi: being looked at at board level but we are still 174 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:43,710 Persia Navidi: seeing instances where there are some issues with the cybersecurity 175 00:09:43,710 --> 00:09:48,959 Persia Navidi: obligations and requirements to have adequate risk management in place 176 00:09:49,110 --> 00:09:52,710 Persia Navidi: is not being met. An example of that is there 177 00:09:52,710 --> 00:09:55,679 Persia Navidi: was a case earlier this year commenced by ASIC against 178 00:09:55,710 --> 00:09:59,820 Persia Navidi: RI Advice, and that was a first for ASIC. It's the first 179 00:09:59,820 --> 00:10:03,900 Persia Navidi: time litigation had been initiated by ASIC alleging deficient cybersecurity 180 00:10:03,900 --> 00:10:07,559 Persia Navidi: practices. The outcome has provided a little bit of judicial 181 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:12,030 Persia Navidi: guidance about cybersecurity standards required of, in this case it was an 182 00:10:12,030 --> 00:10:16,410 Persia Navidi: Australian financial services license holder, and again it's nothing new 183 00:10:16,410 --> 00:10:19,950 Persia Navidi: that's come out of that. Ultimately the terms were settled 184 00:10:19,950 --> 00:10:22,500 Persia Navidi: before it went to any sort of final hearing or 185 00:10:22,500 --> 00:10:26,340 Persia Navidi: proceeding, but in the judgment it was not anything new, 186 00:10:26,340 --> 00:10:29,910 Persia Navidi: any new cybersecurity standard that was imposed on financial services 187 00:10:30,179 --> 00:10:33,660 Persia Navidi: holders or boards or anything like that. It simply reinforced 188 00:10:33,660 --> 00:10:36,900 Persia Navidi: what's already under their Corporations Act, and that is that 189 00:10:36,900 --> 00:10:40,709 Persia Navidi: a financial services licensee must do all things necessary to 190 00:10:40,710 --> 00:10:43,589 Persia Navidi: ensure that the financial services covered by the license are 191 00:10:43,590 --> 00:10:46,380 Persia Navidi: provided efficiently, honestly and fairly, and to have adequate risk 192 00:10:46,380 --> 00:10:47,490 Persia Navidi: management systems. 193 00:10:47,730 --> 00:10:50,579 Sean Aylmer: So if the Regulator's jumping in there... I mean, it's 194 00:10:50,580 --> 00:10:53,309 Sean Aylmer: always been there, but they're obviously taking it pretty seriously 195 00:10:53,309 --> 00:10:55,530 Sean Aylmer: now and there are going to be some firms who 196 00:10:55,530 --> 00:10:57,600 Sean Aylmer: are a bit scared by that sort of outcome. 197 00:10:58,620 --> 00:11:01,770 Persia Navidi: Yes, and I think that it's not all doom and gloom. Certainly 198 00:11:02,220 --> 00:11:04,590 Persia Navidi: there are things that need to be done, and that's why 199 00:11:04,590 --> 00:11:07,260 Persia Navidi: I'm saying what I said earlier as well about adapt, 200 00:11:07,260 --> 00:11:10,559 Persia Navidi: don't ignore. These things are happening. They, the changes, they're 201 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,559 Persia Navidi: here. Cyber is a risk to business and it just 202 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:16,620 Persia Navidi: needs to be considered. You need to make sure that 203 00:11:16,620 --> 00:11:19,920 Persia Navidi: there are cybersecurity protocols in place, that they're robust, that 204 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,059 Persia Navidi: you're positioning yourself as a business to be resilient in 205 00:11:24,059 --> 00:11:27,660 Persia Navidi: that space and also to respond efficiently to any incidents 206 00:11:27,660 --> 00:11:32,070 Persia Navidi: should they arise, and again, when in doubt, seek help. 207 00:11:32,070 --> 00:11:34,140 Persia Navidi: There are people out there who can help with bolstering 208 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,140 Persia Navidi: policies or provide guidance when it comes to the regulatory 209 00:11:37,140 --> 00:11:41,340 Persia Navidi: framework at this point in time, the mandatory reporting requirements, 210 00:11:41,730 --> 00:11:45,420 Persia Navidi: but it's about knowledge and understanding what the risk is, 211 00:11:45,420 --> 00:11:46,860 Persia Navidi: and then what steps you can take to try and 212 00:11:46,860 --> 00:11:49,320 Persia Navidi: mitigate it, and hopefully that will alleviate some of the 213 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:50,370 Persia Navidi: fear that's out there. 214 00:11:50,970 --> 00:11:52,770 Sean Aylmer: Persia, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 215 00:11:53,250 --> 00:11:55,020 Persia Navidi: Thank you very much for your time. Have a great day. 216 00:11:55,380 --> 00:11:59,160 Sean Aylmer: That was Persia Navidi, partner at Hicksons Lawyers. This is a Fear and 217 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,130 Sean Aylmer: Greed Daily Interview. Remember you should get professional advice before 218 00:12:02,130 --> 00:12:05,099 Sean Aylmer: making any investment decision. Join us every morning for the 219 00:12:05,100 --> 00:12:07,740 Sean Aylmer: full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's most popular business 220 00:12:07,740 --> 00:12:10,260 Sean Aylmer: podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer, enjoy your day.