Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person is never
Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,
Speaker 1: I sat down with investigative journalist Ashley Hanson, and I
Speaker 1: also spoke to Christy Charles. Chris is the younger sister
Speaker 1: of a murdered twenty three year old Rochelle Charles, whose
Speaker 1: partially burned body was discarded in a shallow ditch near
Speaker 1: the New South Wales south coast town of Dureau on
Speaker 1: the eighth of June two thousand and one. Sadly, Rochelle's
Speaker 1: murder remains unsolved. Ashley and Christy have teamed up to
Speaker 1: try and find out what happened to Rachelle and bring
Speaker 1: the person responsible before the courts. They have meticulously researched
Speaker 1: Rochelle's murder and they want justice. Their efforts are documented
Speaker 1: in a podcast called Dear Rochelle. I spoke to them
Speaker 1: about their podcast and what they are uncovering. I think
Speaker 1: you'll find it interesting listening. Chrissy, it's nice to meet you,
Speaker 1: but I'm sorry it's in these circumstances.
Speaker 2: Thanks, it's nice to meet you too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's never nice going through what you've been
Speaker 1: going through. So yeah, my sympathy for you. A long, long,
Speaker 1: hard battle. But I'm happy that it's getting some media exposure.
Speaker 2: Which certainly is yeah. Yeah, yeah, great.
Speaker 1: You could miss it, miss it over the last week
Speaker 1: or so, so that's been incredible. Yeah, Ashley, welcome to
Speaker 1: our Catch Killers.
Speaker 3: Great to be with you.
Speaker 1: And congratulations on the podcast Dear Rachelle. Because I've been
Speaker 1: listening to the episodes that are available at the moment
Speaker 1: and i can see the work that's gone into it,
Speaker 1: and yeah, I've found it very interesting.
Speaker 3: Thank you, appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Okay, Now, Christy, I want to talk about just the
Speaker 1: impact this whole situation that's had on you. Your oldest
Speaker 1: sister has been murdered. It's over twenty years ago, and
Speaker 1: no one's been called into account for it. Can you
Speaker 1: just explain to the listeners, because I think sometimes we
Speaker 1: read these stories in the paper, but we don't fully
Speaker 1: appreciate the impact that has on the people that are
Speaker 1: left behind when someone's murdered.
Speaker 2: I was only eighteen, I was very close to nineteen
Speaker 2: at a time, so it was It's definitely one of
Speaker 2: those things where line drawn in the sand in your life,
Speaker 2: where what happened before and what happened after, And yeah,
Speaker 2: it was it's all very blurry back then, but I
Speaker 2: had to grow up really really quickly. Luckily, me, mum
Speaker 2: and dad were so close, and you know, we always
Speaker 2: had been that it sort of brought us closer together
Speaker 2: in a way. But it's yeah, definitely incredibly traumatic for
Speaker 2: all of us. Yeah, and she was just, yeah, so loved,
Speaker 2: so all of her. We have a really big family,
Speaker 2: plus she had a massive amount of friends. So yeah,
Speaker 2: it was very far reaching the impact and it's still
Speaker 2: having a massive impact on people Yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Speak to people that have lost loved ones and on
Speaker 1: anniversaries or reflecting where would that person be now ten
Speaker 1: years down the track. And it's a big part of
Speaker 1: your life that's missing, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially around Her birthday is the twenty sixth of May,
Speaker 2: and she died on the eighth, seventh, eighth of June,
Speaker 2: so there's like a two week period where you can't
Speaker 2: even really talk to me. It's yeah, yeah, I just
Speaker 2: sort of going to my little shell and I think
Speaker 2: mum and dad or dad passed away a few years ago, right,
Speaker 2: Mum does the same. But we always on those anniversaries
Speaker 2: at eight o'clock, there's a group of us that we
Speaker 2: just send each other a photo of a drink, a
Speaker 2: burban or whatever.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it works.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just you know, acknowledging that we all miss her,
Speaker 2: and yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a tough situation. Actually, you've worked on the
Speaker 1: podcast for the past six months or so. Do you
Speaker 1: get a sense you're an investigative journalist. Do you get
Speaker 1: a sense that when you actually get to know people
Speaker 1: and the impact that a murder has on those the
Speaker 1: family members and those close to the victim, you're getting
Speaker 1: a sense of that with what you've been doing researching
Speaker 1: and investigating this matter.
Speaker 3: Oh for sure.
Speaker 4: I think as a reporter for so many years beforehand,
Speaker 4: I did have some exposure to families that have gone
Speaker 4: through grief and whatnot. But I think to have known
Speaker 4: Christy over this twelve month period or even longer than
Speaker 4: that now and to just personally know her and to
Speaker 4: hear and see the impact as the anniversary comes around,
Speaker 4: as the birthday comes around, as we learn new things
Speaker 4: and talk to all the people in Christie's life and
Speaker 4: Rochelle's life that were so deeply traumatized from what happened,
Speaker 4: I think that definitely hits you more as a journalist
Speaker 4: and just makes you more committed to getting a positive
Speaker 4: result out of this and getting some answers for Christy
Speaker 4: and her mum in particular.
Speaker 1: It makes sense because there is a disconnect when you
Speaker 1: see the headlines in the news and you don't really
Speaker 1: see the depth of it. I certainly was exposed to
Speaker 1: it as a homicide detective, but I know if you're
Speaker 1: working a long time doing investigative journalism with family members
Speaker 1: that have lost the loved one, you see the pain.
Speaker 4: You do and you feel that pressure as well, more
Speaker 4: so because I'm so motivated and inspired by her and
Speaker 4: her mum and their strength, and they're so stoic and
Speaker 4: they haven't done this podcast because they want pity or
Speaker 4: they want sympathy. They've done it because they just are
Speaker 4: so determined to get those answers. And that's what motivates
Speaker 4: motivates them, and that motivates me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can. You actually feed off the family's determination.
Speaker 1: So like, again, full credit to you, because I know
Speaker 1: it's not easy with you, Christy dealing with this and
Speaker 1: bringing it all up, but full admiration for you the
Speaker 1: fact that you're fighting for justice for your sister.
Speaker 2: Thank you. I actually find it quite empowering. I think
Speaker 2: doing nothing is harder. Yeah, so this is, you know,
Speaker 2: this is good for me. This is I feel like
Speaker 2: I'm giving her a voice and I'm actually doing something
Speaker 2: rather than waiting for someone else to do something.
Speaker 1: The shame of it is, and I look at this
Speaker 1: and not just speaking about Rochelle's case, the shame of
Speaker 1: it is that the authority should be doing things. A
Speaker 1: family shouldn't have to drive these matters, and sadly I've
Speaker 1: seen it too much in my career where the families
Speaker 1: are the driving force behind keeping an investigation active and ongoing,
Speaker 1: and it really shouldn't be that way. If the system
Speaker 1: was worked, something happens and then the courts, the police, everyone,
Speaker 1: the media, everyone gets involved to ensure there's justice. But
Speaker 1: it's not always the case.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would hope that, you know, in the future,
Speaker 2: that the media and the police could work together a
Speaker 2: lot more closely, because the media is such a powerful tools,
Speaker 2: you know, much further reaching than just the police on
Speaker 2: their own.
Speaker 1: Well, the beauty of the media and now had the
Speaker 1: I was going to say luxury. I'm not sure if
Speaker 1: that's the right word, but I've worked in both areas.
Speaker 1: But when I was in the police, I understood the
Speaker 1: power of the media, and the police can say it
Speaker 1: doesn't impact on the attention that the media gets it,
Speaker 1: but I can assure you if there's a tension from
Speaker 1: the media on a particular case, that case tends to
Speaker 1: get resource better. And also it becomes more thorough investigation,
Speaker 1: which is sad, but it's just a reality.
Speaker 2: Squeaky wheel thing, isn't it. Really Feel sorry for the
Speaker 2: victims who don't have family or friends pushing for them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and quite often and I've encountered this quite often.
Speaker 1: The victims don't feel they got the right to push. Well,
Speaker 1: the police are handling this matter. And most people that
Speaker 1: come into contact in a situation like you have, you
Speaker 1: haven't had a lot of dealings with police, so you expect,
Speaker 1: you think the police are You can't challenge what the
Speaker 1: police are doing. You just got to wait till and
Speaker 1: hope that they're doing the right thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right, And I think we were like that
Speaker 2: for a really long time. And I think it's other
Speaker 2: investigative journalists and other podcasts that sort of paved the way. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and you see the impact that they have had. My
Speaker 2: good friend Mindy introduced me to this sort of platform. Yeah,
Speaker 2: this is incredible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's a different It's definitely change the landscape.
Speaker 1: And we'll talk more about the podcast and the impact.
Speaker 1: But I think before we start, can we just for
Speaker 1: our listeners that haven't heard the details, can we just
Speaker 1: explain what the circumstances surrounding Rochelle's murder was, Ashley, do
Speaker 1: you want to just give us some brief details?
Speaker 2: Sure?
Speaker 4: Well, on Thursday, the seventh of June two thousand and one,
Speaker 4: Rochelle left work at Camden Holden where she was a
Speaker 4: sales woman at this car yacht and they used to
Speaker 4: specialize in Holden's and because Rochelle was a whole and
Speaker 4: fanatic and it was almost a dream job right for her,
Speaker 4: and she loved it, loved a job. And she was
Speaker 4: going home back to Bargo, which is about a thirty
Speaker 4: minute drive from her work. We believe she made it
Speaker 4: home that night and she had plans to meet someone,
Speaker 4: but we don't know exactly who she was meeting. And
Speaker 4: she was never seen again alive. And nine hours later,
Speaker 4: her burning body was found at Jiroa at seven Mile Beach,
Speaker 4: which is one hundred kilometers away from her home in Bargo,
Speaker 4: so far away from her circle of friends, very very
Speaker 4: unusual place for her to go or.
Speaker 2: I believe, I don't know that she's ever been down there, yeah,
Speaker 2: other than when she was found down there.
Speaker 4: Okay, So Christy went into a frantic search looking for
Speaker 4: her because they didn't know that Rachelle had already been
Speaker 4: killed when they were looking for her, because it was
Speaker 4: so far away, I don't think they attached the missing
Speaker 4: per and that when Christy went forward to the police
Speaker 4: and said Rochelle's missing, and it was so out of
Speaker 4: a character for her not to come home and not
Speaker 4: to be in contact with her friends and family. So
Speaker 4: Christy and all of your friends and family started to rally,
Speaker 4: didn't you going looking for her? And then the devastating
Speaker 4: news came through on the Sunday that Rachelle had been
Speaker 4: found at Hiroa seven mile beach. And that's when a
Speaker 4: murder investigation was well and truly underway.
Speaker 1: And so when the Rochelle's body was discovered, it was
Speaker 1: passed by that saw because she was partially burnt. And
Speaker 1: I apologize here, Christy, because I know talking about it
Speaker 1: is just yeah, it must invagal.
Speaker 2: It's fine, We talk about it a lot, so.
Speaker 1: Fine, Okay, Well, just so people understand the nature of
Speaker 1: this crime, that Rochelle's body was discarded in bush Land
Speaker 1: and set alight and someone was driving past in the
Speaker 1: early hours of the morning saw the fire and then
Speaker 1: I realized it was a human that was on fire.
Speaker 1: Was Rochelle's car found that location? Where was Rochelle's car found?
Speaker 4: Rochelle's car was found at the back of the Bargo
Speaker 4: Hotel on the Saturday, so it had been there for
Speaker 4: a couple of nights, at least two nights they believed.
Speaker 3: The police believed.
Speaker 4: That the car had been spotted there on the Thursday
Speaker 4: night and the Friday night, and it was found and
Speaker 4: seized by police on the Saturday.
Speaker 3: But I'll let.
Speaker 4: Christy tell you that her reaction when the car was found,
Speaker 4: because from Christie's perspective, it was like a breakthrough because
Speaker 4: they thought, well, maybe the car has been found.
Speaker 3: Soon we'll find Rochelle. So I'll let her talk you
Speaker 3: through that, but if you want, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I just clarify, when did you realize Rochelle was missing?
Speaker 1: When did the concern Friday? Friday?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you owner to Rochelle Thursday night, but I
Speaker 2: rushed her off the phone because I was on the
Speaker 2: other line. Was that old fashioned a lean line to
Speaker 2: a friend, And then I forgot to call her back
Speaker 2: and she was driving home in time. But yeah, the
Speaker 2: next day she was supposed to meet Fiona, her good
Speaker 2: friend that she worked with, and she didn't turn up. Sopha.
Speaker 2: You went and tried looking for her, went to a
Speaker 2: house and she said, something's wrong. I can't find her.
Speaker 2: That's what started it. And it was calling police, calling hospitals,
Speaker 2: driving around, calling everybody, getting everyone to call everybody. I
Speaker 2: hadn't told mom and dad yet they were up at
Speaker 2: Port Stephens at the time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so explain that. So it's Friday, Friday morning, Where.
Speaker 2: Was Friday afternoon?
Speaker 1: Friday afternoon? Yeah, and you try the phone, you check
Speaker 1: all the places people she knows, and what was going
Speaker 1: through your mind at the time.
Speaker 2: I thought that she'd crash the car, right because she
Speaker 2: liked to drive very fast.
Speaker 1: I got the sense it will com okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's what I thought it had happened. I
Speaker 2: thought she's gone off the road, she's rolled down the embankment.
Speaker 2: We've got to finder. She's, you know, could be in
Speaker 2: serious trouble. That's what I thought it happened. But when
Speaker 2: we found the.
Speaker 1: Car and that was so it was the Thursday night
Speaker 1: and the car was found on the Saturday. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: at this point in time, you hadn't made the connection
Speaker 1: to what her the cur that Gira.
Speaker 2: No, I hadn't heard about that. So because we went
Speaker 2: and put missing person's posters everywhere, I think the pub
Speaker 2: called said that there's a car. I can't remember what happened,
Speaker 2: but we went there. The car was locked up. I
Speaker 2: don't actually remember this bit, but I was told that
Speaker 2: my boyfriend at the time contacted the old owner and
Speaker 2: got a spare key. Anyway, we managed to get into
Speaker 2: the car, and I jumped in and sat in the
Speaker 2: driver's seat and went. She didn't leave this year because
Speaker 2: I couldn't. She was a lot shorter than me. Couldn't
Speaker 2: touch the pedal. She did used to sit really far
Speaker 2: back and drive. You know, you could only see this
Speaker 2: much of her head. She'd drive with the toes and yeah,
Speaker 2: she was assured you, but I couldn't reach the pedals.
Speaker 2: It was pretty much all the way back. And the
Speaker 2: clublock was on wrong. She had a really specific way
Speaker 2: she put the clublock on. How There's like the that
Speaker 2: part that goes around, it's sort of like a U shape,
Speaker 2: and then you've got the long handle. She used to
Speaker 2: put it on upside down and jam the handle into
Speaker 2: the corner of the windscreen, and then she locked the
Speaker 2: steering wheel, and the handle was down and the steering
Speaker 2: wheel wasn't locked, and it was on facing forwards, and
Speaker 2: she always put it on backwards.
Speaker 1: Okay, so your assumption, based on that reasonable assumption, is
Speaker 1: that she wasn't the person that put the car there.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. She did not park that car there
Speaker 2: because she was She'd had cars stolen a number of times.
Speaker 2: She was really paranoid and that car was her pride
Speaker 2: and joy, and she would not have left that car
Speaker 2: Bargo Park.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you've missing all of Friday, missing Saturday, the
Speaker 1: car has been found. You think, okay, we might get
Speaker 1: some answers. Now, this might start to.
Speaker 2: I think that's when I knew that something right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I know there's something serious.
Speaker 1: And she wasn't the type of person that might have
Speaker 1: just disappeared for a couple of days, got caught up
Speaker 1: on something so out of the character. When did you
Speaker 1: find out that the incident that Gira On Sunday?
Speaker 2: Two detectives turned up because I lived with her at Bargo,
Speaker 2: but I was at mum and Dad's house that weekend
Speaker 2: looking after their house while they are away. Yeah, two
Speaker 2: detectives turned up to Bargo, and I thought, oh, maybe
Speaker 2: they founder Well they did, but yeah, that's when they
Speaker 2: told me.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us what that was like? And I've
Speaker 1: been at the position of the detective delivering that saw
Speaker 1: the news. What was said and how did you react
Speaker 1: and how did your family deal with the situation.
Speaker 2: Well, I had a really big smile on my face,
Speaker 2: like hoping that they were coming to tell me something good.
Speaker 2: And it was Detective Ivor Davies who walked up and
Speaker 2: put his hand on my shoulder and lent him and said,
Speaker 2: your sister's dead. She's been murdered. She was found down
Speaker 2: at GIRoA, And it was Yeah, everything else is very blurry,
Speaker 2: but his face at that point is so crystal clear
Speaker 2: in my mind. And later on I did feel really
Speaker 2: sorry for him to be horrible to tell the family
Speaker 2: that I don't remember what I did after that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: she screamed cry, I don't know. Then Mum and dad
Speaker 2: turned up and I went, I can't be here for this,
Speaker 2: So I think I went out of the back.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I picked that up from the podcast listening to
Speaker 1: one of the episodes of the podcast. How it was
Speaker 1: just too confronting for you to see that news given
Speaker 1: to your parents.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we kind of stayed like that too. We
Speaker 2: always we just grieve separately because we went at each other,
Speaker 2: but we still still talk about it all the time.
Speaker 1: It's heavy, isn't it. Before we venture into what's been
Speaker 1: uncovered and what you're doing with the podcast. I think
Speaker 1: it's important that we get a sense of who Rachelle
Speaker 1: was as a person. From an investigative point of view.
Speaker 1: We call it victimology about finding, and that quite often
Speaker 1: helps with solving cases. But I think it's also important
Speaker 1: that we remember who she is. And so would you
Speaker 1: like to tell us about the sister you knew?
Speaker 2: Yep, she was really outgoing in a way in some respects.
Speaker 2: She was actually quite shy, but yeah, really outgoing, really funny,
Speaker 2: really quick witted, really smart, really pretty, got a lot
Speaker 2: of attention.
Speaker 1: She had it all going she did.
Speaker 3: She had it all.
Speaker 2: She was spawty. She could drive like you wouldn't believe. Yeah,
Speaker 2: she'd like to race cars on and off the track. Yeah,
Speaker 2: she was a real backer of the underdog. She had
Speaker 2: a really good sense of justice. And yeah, she'd always
Speaker 2: stick up for people if she thought that they were
Speaker 2: being hard done by, and she was always there for
Speaker 2: her friends. She'd call people out on their shit. Yeah,
Speaker 2: she was awesome. She was really a good She was
Speaker 2: my protected too. I was a little bit more shy
Speaker 2: than she was. What was the age difference, four years
Speaker 2: she was four years older, all.
Speaker 1: Right, So she was your role model? Yep, okay, we
Speaker 1: shouldn't laugh. Very very good role model. Yes, And what
Speaker 1: was the family dynamics like other brothers and sisters or no?
Speaker 2: It was just us two. I'm very much like Dad.
Speaker 2: I guess we were both a bit more like Dad
Speaker 2: than mum. Mum's beautiful, Mum's very soft, where Rachelle and
Speaker 2: I probably had a bit more sittin us.
Speaker 1: I guess three gang up on your mom with you
Speaker 1: gang up on your mom?
Speaker 2: Yeah, we were stirs. Dad was really hard working. He's
Speaker 2: a business consultant and had a couple of businesses. He
Speaker 2: was gone most of the day. Mum would run us
Speaker 2: around everywhere to softball, cricket, piano. When Rochelle lost a license, Mum.
Speaker 1: Was we wonder why she lost a license?
Speaker 2: Yeah, she was twenty three and I think she lost
Speaker 2: the license two or three times by that stage.
Speaker 1: Damn those highway control Yeah. Did she have dreams and aspirations?
Speaker 2: Yeah, she she did. It wasn't long before she died
Speaker 2: that she went. I think she started to see that
Speaker 2: maybe being a news car saleswoman probably wasn't something that
Speaker 2: she'd do forever. And I was at UNI at the time.
Speaker 2: And she said, I think I'd like to go to UNI.
Speaker 2: And we were talking to dad about trying to get
Speaker 2: him to help us buy a few acres because we
Speaker 2: had horses. All right, okay, so you just hit that
Speaker 2: up alone. We can move out together and we live together,
Speaker 2: but we're only renting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a good plan.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it was great when we lived together. It
Speaker 2: was a great fun. And we used to make punch
Speaker 2: in the vegetable CRUs but we had no vegetables in
Speaker 2: the fridge, but we used to make punch so the
Speaker 2: punch would stay cold. It was feel so broke I
Speaker 2: thought we could have for It was great fun.
Speaker 1: I'm just getting the sense I reckon you guys got
Speaker 1: up to a fair bit of mischief, but you don't
Speaker 1: have to declare that.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, innocent mischief.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm sure there's some other stories that probably
Speaker 1: not fit for the audience at this stage. Actually, you've
Speaker 1: got to know the family. You've certainly got to know Chrissy.
Speaker 1: What's the sense of Rochelle that you get looking at
Speaker 1: from an investigative journalist's point of view and having a
Speaker 1: look into this family and getting to understand who Rochelle
Speaker 1: was well.
Speaker 3: They still have a great sense of humor.
Speaker 4: And I can tell that Rachelle probably would have had
Speaker 4: one too, because Christy's funny and it's funny they still,
Speaker 4: I mean. And I was telling her to tell me
Speaker 4: about the first press conference she ever did, and she
Speaker 4: said that they were trying to find little funny moments
Speaker 4: in all of their dark times, and before the first
Speaker 4: press conference on Rochelle's murder.
Speaker 3: And said, oh, I should have got that facelift, you know,
Speaker 3: I should have got that chin fixed.
Speaker 4: And I just, you know, I just laugh and think,
Speaker 4: you know, they're just just warm and friendly people and
Speaker 4: not complainers.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: I remember when I asked, Anne, do you ever ask
Speaker 4: why I've lost so much? And she says, well, no,
Speaker 4: I don't ask why me. I just ask why, And
Speaker 4: that was really I think that sums her up.
Speaker 3: And Christy as well. They're not I don't want.
Speaker 4: PD as I said before, They're just people that are
Speaker 4: salt of the earth Australians and they want justice and
Speaker 4: I just really get a sense of that. And they're
Speaker 4: just the Australian spirit, you know, the Australian sense of humor,
Speaker 4: find you know, have a wicked sense of humor, but
Speaker 4: at the same time always caring about other people. I mean,
Speaker 4: Christy's always checking in on me how I'm doing, and
Speaker 4: I'm thinking, you are going through and opening these wounds
Speaker 4: of the worst time in your life, and she's still
Speaker 4: always checking in on me after I speak to someone,
Speaker 4: checking in on the person I interviewed, because she knows
Speaker 4: that how traumatic it is for them to talk about
Speaker 4: the case and to talk about Rachelle. So they're just
Speaker 4: very warm and caring and loving people. And I'm sure
Speaker 4: that Rachelle would have been that person too.
Speaker 2: Cut from the same family. Yeah, yeah, that's really nice.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Well, it's yeah, I don't know where you find strength,
Speaker 1: And I think part of what Ashley said there, and
Speaker 1: that just amazes me, the human spirit where you can
Speaker 1: hang in there but still find some joy in life
Speaker 1: too likely what's happened. And I think that's so many
Speaker 1: times I've sat here with people or during my career
Speaker 1: as a homicide detective, and they've got to be able
Speaker 1: to just find some lighter moments, because otherwise the darkness
Speaker 1: just drags you down and down. Okay, let's talk about
Speaker 1: the investigation. You're dealing with police, So what was your
Speaker 1: first impressions when police became involved in this situation.
Speaker 2: They were so kind to us and they were all
Speaker 2: guns blazing, they were up all night, they worked their
Speaker 2: asses off and yeah, and they kept us informed the
Speaker 2: whole way through. They were actually they became like family
Speaker 2: with them all the time. I think they did the
Speaker 2: best they could with what they had, and the resources
Speaker 2: dried up pretty quickly.
Speaker 1: So who were you talking about the local detectives that
Speaker 1: were working at the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have a Davies in Peter Street with the
Speaker 2: two that I remember probably the most. And then Mick
Speaker 2: ash Would in his team took over. I think a
Speaker 2: year later.
Speaker 4: Mick Ashwood did a review, So I'm not quite sure
Speaker 4: how much he was involved in the leadership of the investigation,
Speaker 4: but he certainly came into it about a year later.
Speaker 2: Yes, we've had a few different teams on it and
Speaker 2: they've all been incredible people.
Speaker 1: Well, that's that's good to hear. Mick would have been
Speaker 1: unsolved at that time, I think when he did the
Speaker 1: review on the PABs. But okay, in dealing with the
Speaker 1: police statements, things like the public don't normally understand what happens, Well.
Speaker 2: It's you know, six hours in a in a police room,
Speaker 2: being asked questions, being recorded, trying to remember everything. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and just because you're so out of your mind at
Speaker 2: the time, it's really hard to try and remember what happened,
Speaker 2: you know. And it's there are a few different statements
Speaker 2: that everyone did, a few different statements, but its hours
Speaker 2: and hours and hours and hours and hours.
Speaker 1: Of And I find with people as close to the
Speaker 1: victim as you were with Rachelle, you're always second guessing.
Speaker 1: Have I forgotten something? Is it something some detail that
Speaker 1: I'm missing or is there something that I saw that
Speaker 1: I haven't bought up that type of thing.
Speaker 2: Was that the definitely And the guilt, oh, guilt just
Speaker 2: not being there and not calling it back and.
Speaker 1: The moment you mentioned that, yeah, you didn't have to
Speaker 1: be Einstein to work out that you'd carry that guilt
Speaker 1: with that. But and I see it so many times
Speaker 1: people what if what if I did this? What if
Speaker 1: I did that? The thing I say that it's you're
Speaker 1: not to blame, it's the person done the crime, because
Speaker 1: so many times I see so many times people beating
Speaker 1: themselves up. Why didn't I pick the person up at
Speaker 1: the railway station on why didn't I do this And
Speaker 1: it's such a cruel thing, to a cruel thing to carry.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you carry it though I know.
Speaker 1: I'm not a psychologist, so just do my best to
Speaker 1: make you feel better. But I do understand. But what
Speaker 1: I'm saying is you're not alone. There so many people are.
Speaker 2: And you're right, there's only one person. We think one
Speaker 2: person responsible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's where the attention needs to needs to
Speaker 1: be focused on. So is there anything that looking And
Speaker 1: I'm not fishing for criticism here, I'm just asking is
Speaker 1: there anything from a victim of the family of a
Speaker 1: victim of homicide that police could do better, or the
Speaker 1: media could do better or anyone? Was there anything that
Speaker 1: troubled you?
Speaker 2: Losing evidence is probably the main thing that troubles me. Yeah,
Speaker 2: because I just don't get how that happened.
Speaker 1: What's what's the circumstances there?
Speaker 2: CCTV that was collected, not watched and lost. Okay, the
Speaker 2: is human error.
Speaker 1: There's no excuse for it. It's human error. I think
Speaker 1: we've homicide that Yeah, if you make mistakes, people literally
Speaker 1: get away with murder and it's something that shouldn't shouldn't occur.
Speaker 1: How long was either and his team working on it for.
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's very blurry. Yeah, that the first
Speaker 2: twelve months is yeah, it's really hard for me to
Speaker 2: remember anything.
Speaker 1: Was there any breakthrough in that first twelve months where
Speaker 1: you thought, okay, this is Yeah.
Speaker 2: Every week it was like riding a roller coaster. The
Speaker 2: persons of interest that we went through. Every time they
Speaker 2: focused on someone, it's like, oh, it's them, and that's
Speaker 2: it's not and then oh it's them, and they kept
Speaker 2: us probably formed is probably too much because we rode
Speaker 2: it with them. Yeah, and it was horrific, and it
Speaker 2: was just a bunch of high hopes and you get
Speaker 2: your hopes up on dead ends.
Speaker 1: It's difficult from a police point of view if you,
Speaker 1: like the family, want to stay updated. My mantra and
Speaker 1: what I was taught was that, yeah, at some point
Speaker 1: in time, I'll sit down and tell you absolutely everything
Speaker 1: I know, but I've got to protect the integrity of
Speaker 1: the investigation. So if I'm withholding something back, there's a
Speaker 1: reason I'm not telling you. But the balance is, yeah,
Speaker 1: the families deserve to know. The families should know. So
Speaker 1: it's not a black and white there's a gray area
Speaker 1: on how much the keep the families informed. Did you
Speaker 1: have any thoughts as a sister, was something troubling you
Speaker 1: or niggling away at you on what happened to her?
Speaker 2: Yeah, she was. She was really excited about getting a
Speaker 2: warp control for the weekend. She was really really pumped about.
Speaker 1: That and not being the car buff that Rachelle is.
Speaker 1: Walking Shaw.
Speaker 2: That's a v l SS group, ay, of course, top
Speaker 2: of the line commodore.
Speaker 3: I have never heard of a walking Shaw before this.
Speaker 1: You said it with geez walking Shaw.
Speaker 2: Okay, well it was so Peter Brock used to do
Speaker 2: embarrassing bron so he did the v k SS group.
Speaker 4: Ay.
Speaker 2: There known as the blue meanies. There's white ones I
Speaker 2: think as well. That was the model before something happened
Speaker 2: with Peter Brock and Holden and then when they started
Speaker 2: making VL commodores, the vl SS group pay top of
Speaker 2: the line VL was Tom Walkinshaw. His name was put
Speaker 2: to that current instead of a VL Brock. Now it
Speaker 2: was a walkie walking Shaw and everyone called them walkie
Speaker 2: and they looked now I think you refer to them
Speaker 2: as being a plastic pig. I don't think they like
Speaker 2: them back then, but they're a classic now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, yeah, probably worth a lot of money now, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you reckon that Rachelle was the car that I'm
Speaker 1: seeing a lot of information call.
Speaker 2: As she said, I looked up for her a lot.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: Most of our friends were boys growing up. There was
Speaker 2: a lot more boys than there were girls, So there
Speaker 2: was cars and motorbikes and yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you said she was getting that car for
Speaker 1: the weekend alone of the car or.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so she historically could pretty much take home many
Speaker 2: cars she wanted from.
Speaker 1: The lot because she was working in that in the car.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she brought home a black Senator once and beautiful cars.
Speaker 2: So yeah, she was promised a walking Shaw for the
Speaker 2: long weekend and yeah, and she was really excited about it.
Speaker 2: There was no walking Shaw. So in my opinion, that
Speaker 2: is the key to unlock what on earth happened, because
Speaker 2: she wasn't a liar and she was really really excited
Speaker 2: about getting this car. But there was no evidence of
Speaker 2: a walking Shaw coming into the lot.
Speaker 1: Okay, And when she was promised the car, that was
Speaker 1: just information and she obviously told you or told the
Speaker 1: friends that that's what she's going to get around.
Speaker 2: Then, yeah, plans what we were going.
Speaker 1: To do cruise the streets. Yeah, music on loud. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm starting to see a picture picture now, GIRoA. I
Speaker 1: think we touched on it before. It held held no
Speaker 1: significance to her that location.
Speaker 2: No, we've got family at shoal Haven, but we didn't. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we didn't go down there.
Speaker 1: Okay. Was she seeing anyone at the time or was
Speaker 1: she seeing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she was seeing a kind of seeing a guy
Speaker 2: named Lee.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it was that was that serious? No, okay,
Speaker 1: it was.
Speaker 2: Very new and it was just a big casual think
Speaker 2: she hadn't long broken up with Shane. It was her
Speaker 2: long term boyfriend.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: Just on that, Lee made a statement to police and
Speaker 4: he spoke about Rachelle talking about how excited she was
Speaker 4: about getting this walking shaw for the Dune long weekend.
Speaker 4: So one of Lee's statements is critical to the case
Speaker 4: because she told him on the Wednesday night, which was
Speaker 4: the night before she was murdered, that she was supposedly
Speaker 4: being loaned this hold and walking shaw. So that's another
Speaker 4: independent witness apart from Christy, that says that she'd told
Speaker 4: people that she believed that she was getting this walking
Speaker 4: shaw for the long weekend. Okay, and Lee was a
Speaker 4: person of interest, but he was also cleared really quickly
Speaker 4: because his alibi was rock solid and he was with
Speaker 4: friends and family that night, so police looked into him
Speaker 4: and he was one of many people that were looked
Speaker 4: at that were in Rochelle's life was cleared.
Speaker 1: Well, a crime of that nature and the sense that
Speaker 1: I'm getting, you would be very much looking looking for
Speaker 1: people close to Rachelle at the time of a disappearance,
Speaker 1: so it doesn't surprise and there would be call in
Speaker 1: persons of interest. The barrier can be set very low.
Speaker 1: You can be a person of interest if you just
Speaker 1: know the person or came in the contact. Her movements
Speaker 1: on the Thursday night. Now I picked up on it
Speaker 1: at one stage. It was she spoke to a friend
Speaker 1: and said that she was considering going to a clubhouse
Speaker 1: OMCG clubhouse. What was the backstory of that.
Speaker 2: I'm not convinced with that.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I've never heard her talk about going to a Rebels Artie.
Speaker 2: I mean, they're known for being you know, people have
Speaker 2: a really good time there. But it's not something that
Speaker 2: she never went there that I knew of, And I
Speaker 2: found I found it interesting that I hadn't heard that
Speaker 2: from her because it was like we kept secrets from
Speaker 2: another But yeah, there were two of her friends that
Speaker 2: said that she was interested in going to the Rebels
Speaker 2: clubhouse for a party.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that she'd have invited, that she'd been invited to one.
Speaker 4: We don't actually know though, what night that was, whether
Speaker 4: that was meant to be the Thursday night, because I
Speaker 4: think when people start getting questioned about it and it
Speaker 4: was months down the track, they couldn't definitively say which
Speaker 4: night it was, or whether she just generally said, yeah,
Speaker 4: I've been invited to a party and was planning to
Speaker 4: go at some stage or where this Thursday night party
Speaker 4: came from.
Speaker 3: But what we know that the Thursday night.
Speaker 4: They did look into it, and apparently there were no
Speaker 4: gatherings on at the clubhouse that night.
Speaker 1: What you get with investigations like this too, is you
Speaker 1: get a lot of rumors and speculation, and you'll tell someone,
Speaker 1: someone will tell someone else, and it lands on the
Speaker 1: doorstep of the police and then we track it back.
Speaker 1: And I know I said that, but I didn't see it.
Speaker 1: I just thought that might have happened. So there would
Speaker 1: be a lot of a lot of work that was
Speaker 1: required to be done. Do you know why homicide weren't
Speaker 1: running the investigation at the start? Was that ever clarified
Speaker 1: with you?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, we're going to break break the investigation down
Speaker 1: a little bit more detail because there was an inquest
Speaker 1: and we can talk about that. But I just want
Speaker 1: to talk about now, just jumping from the investigation a
Speaker 1: little bit too. Why the podcast. Well, i'll start with you, Ashley.
Speaker 1: What got you interested in this particular case?
Speaker 4: Well, after I left Channel seven and I was a
Speaker 4: reporter there for about ten years, and had worked as
Speaker 4: a TV reporter for many years before that as well,
Speaker 4: and I just wanted to focus on one case because
Speaker 4: I was so used to just covering one story and
Speaker 4: telling my story for the television news that night, and
Speaker 4: I felt so limited, especially when I would do interviews
Speaker 4: with victims' families, and I just wanted to do more.
Speaker 4: So when I became it happened in my career that
Speaker 4: I just had a bit of time on my hands.
Speaker 4: I was reassessing what I wanted to do next. Did
Speaker 4: I want to be a newsreader or did I want
Speaker 4: to get back into doing something else. And I felt
Speaker 4: really strongly about doing a podcast. And getting into a
Speaker 4: cold case because I've been inspired by Hitley Thomas.
Speaker 3: And his work, and I just thought of this case.
Speaker 4: It was the first cold case that came to mind
Speaker 4: and the reason and it became apparent to me why
Speaker 4: I remembered it, and it was because I was twenty three.
Speaker 4: I think give will take a year. I was definitely
Speaker 4: in my early twenties when I first heard about Rochelle's case,
Speaker 4: because I've was working at Prime TV down at Woollongong
Speaker 4: and I was just writing news updates and I remember
Speaker 4: reading about it and having to write a very short
Speaker 4: story on it and just thinking and seeing her photo
Speaker 4: and I just remembered it because it evoked this shock
Speaker 4: in me. And so when I was looking to do
Speaker 4: a cold case, that was the first one that came
Speaker 4: to mind, and I googled it and sure enough there
Speaker 4: was an article with Christy in the article saying that
Speaker 4: she was considering doing a podcast. And so I did
Speaker 4: a bit more reading, a bit more research about the
Speaker 4: case to see, you know, it's more background of the case,
Speaker 4: and then I reached out to Christy in December I
Speaker 4: think it was, and I just sent her a message
Speaker 4: on Facebook.
Speaker 3: Just thought it's worth a chat and.
Speaker 4: See what she's see how she felt about it, and
Speaker 4: she ignored me.
Speaker 1: Christy, I'll give you a rite to respond to that
Speaker 1: a little bit later, Okay.
Speaker 3: She did.
Speaker 2: I didn't know me message. It was sitting in the message.
Speaker 4: Request, and I had it in my sort of diary
Speaker 4: back of my mind to say I need to follow
Speaker 4: her up. I actually need to get her phone number.
Speaker 4: So that was in the back of my mind. And
Speaker 4: then I was following the Lady Vanisher's podcast their Facebook
Speaker 4: page and someone from their Facebook page because that's another
Speaker 4: wonderful podcast that I follow and someone posted on there,
Speaker 4: can you please follow this page? And it was Christie's
Speaker 4: Facebook page about campaigning for justice for Rachelle. And I thought, oh,
Speaker 4: my gosh, how strange that it was only just weeks
Speaker 4: earlier I'd messaged Christie's. So I messaged the Facebook page
Speaker 4: directly and I said, I actually sent you a message
Speaker 4: just a few weeks ago.
Speaker 3: And she checked.
Speaker 4: Her messages and sure enough there was my message in
Speaker 4: her spam or wherever she ignores them.
Speaker 3: And we just got talking and yeah, we spoke.
Speaker 4: Then she told me that she was also talking to
Speaker 4: Headley Thomas and I had two reactions. One was of
Speaker 4: relief that this case did warrant a podcast in the
Speaker 4: sense that it was there was a lot of material,
Speaker 4: and it was one that would you could investigate. There
Speaker 4: was no barriers in the sense that someone was before
Speaker 4: a court or anything like that. And then the other
Speaker 4: reaction was, well, she's never going to pick me over Headley.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's a bit hard to match there.
Speaker 4: But I did also think, you know what, if my
Speaker 4: interest in this case might prompt Headley to locker in.
Speaker 3: Or something like that, I was happy about that.
Speaker 4: But as turned out, Headley was very deep in his
Speaker 4: investigation into Brongwyn and I believe that that's why he
Speaker 4: couldn't commit to Christie and Rochelle's case. And he's such
Speaker 4: an honest man and was genuine about that and got
Speaker 4: back to Chris and said, I just can't give it
Speaker 4: the time your sister's case deserves. And I think he was.
Speaker 2: He was very well. I said to him, I've been
Speaker 2: approached by Ashley Hansen. Yeah, and he said do it.
Speaker 2: You're being good hands and he's.
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, Well, that's cudos to Headley and the whole
Speaker 1: environment with the podcast, and we refer the Teacher's Pet,
Speaker 1: because it's one that so many people have listened to
Speaker 1: and we understand what happened there. And I've had Hedley
Speaker 1: sitting here in the chair you're sitting in and said
Speaker 1: to him, from my point of view, and I think
Speaker 1: I'm entitled to offer that opinion. I know if he
Speaker 1: didn't stir that up, that would that matter wouldn't have
Speaker 1: been wouldn't have been solved, And the police might say, oh,
Speaker 1: we would have got on to it. But it doesn't
Speaker 1: happen that way. It's just the real world. Like put
Speaker 1: the focus on that case, and then Lynette Dawson case
Speaker 1: finally gets reopen looked at and lo and behold, a
Speaker 1: person's in jail for it now, so I can understand
Speaker 1: understand seeing and I take it. Chrissy, you saw the
Speaker 1: results from what happened with Teacher's Pet, and is that
Speaker 1: what was driving you towards steering it towards a podcast.
Speaker 2: Yeah. One of my best mates, Mindy Yep, put me
Speaker 2: onto and she said, you need to listen to Headley
Speaker 2: Thomas and start listening to the Teacher's Pet. And you know,
Speaker 2: following Lynn Simms's case the whole way through it was incredible,
Speaker 2: the work that he did and the justice that he
Speaker 2: got her. Yeah, and I was all in, let's do it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's actually you could probably speak to this with
Speaker 1: more understanding as a changing landscape in the media, isn't it.
Speaker 1: With the type of power that a podcast and the
Speaker 1: exposure that the podcast can get.
Speaker 4: Game changing and because of the reach of the podcast,
Speaker 4: because there is so much power in how many more
Speaker 4: people can listen to a case, and it's such a
Speaker 4: personal thing, as you know, people put on their headphone.
Speaker 4: People can listen to a podcast while they're commuting to
Speaker 4: work or whatnot. And it's just such a great medium
Speaker 4: to put out so much information and to tell a
Speaker 4: story and get people to start following it. Because a
Speaker 4: TV documentary, if you look at that, is so much
Speaker 4: more money and time goes into that. And also cameras,
Speaker 4: people are so much more willing to just have their
Speaker 4: voice recorded. And I've worked in television for so many years,
Speaker 4: so I know how hard it is to get people
Speaker 4: on camera. So to just get people to sit there
Speaker 4: with a microphone in front of them, is they do
Speaker 4: just switch off and forget about the fact that they're
Speaker 4: being recorded, And is so much more open about their
Speaker 4: thoughts and their feelings and the case, and it's not
Speaker 4: as intrusive as a TV documentary or a TV story.
Speaker 4: So I just think that that part of it makes
Speaker 4: it a lot easier to get more people talking and
Speaker 4: to put the story together in a way that needs
Speaker 4: to be compelling, factual, but also engaging and hopefully to
Speaker 4: motivate those people that may have information to come forward.
Speaker 4: But of course you need that support. You need people
Speaker 4: to fall in love with the victim and the family
Speaker 4: as well. That's really important for me. Part of the
Speaker 4: storytelling is to make sure that Rachelle is Her voice
Speaker 4: is one of the first things you hear in our podcast,
Speaker 4: and that was just something that I am really focused on.
Speaker 4: That you hear her voice all the time and lots
Speaker 4: of stories about her, and so people follow and want
Speaker 4: to help Christy.
Speaker 3: And her mum. You want them, That's what I think.
Speaker 4: You need that emotional connection, and you don't get that
Speaker 4: if you don't have family and friends talking about them
Speaker 4: and yeah, making them so relatable.
Speaker 3: I mean, Michelle is so relatable.
Speaker 4: As I said, I heard about her case when I
Speaker 4: was in my early twenties and just hearing about her
Speaker 4: love life and what.
Speaker 3: She is to get up to and things like that.
Speaker 4: It is so likable, lovable, but relatable.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think with the podcast too, they don't
Speaker 1: have the restrictions that the more established media have in
Speaker 1: that they're not beholding to the police and so quite
Speaker 1: often with the police. And it's not all attacking the police,
Speaker 1: it's just the way of the world that a media
Speaker 1: outlet is going to respond to. If police say no,
Speaker 1: I want you to hold back on this because we're
Speaker 1: sitting on something, don't release it, they're more inclined to
Speaker 1: step back. Whereas a podcast it's a community involvement. It
Speaker 1: feels like it's more of the community. It's not just
Speaker 1: the established news networks or media outlets, so the police
Speaker 1: have less control and that allows for more scrutiny of
Speaker 1: the investigation. That's the way I see it as well.
Speaker 1: Would you agree with that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's really important. And I've said
Speaker 2: from the beginning, just you know, before I knew her
Speaker 2: really well, just to keep bash accountable. It's about her.
Speaker 2: It's not a story, Yep, it's not. It's not going
Speaker 2: to advance someone's career, it's not going to make a
Speaker 2: heap of money. It is about her and Ash completely
Speaker 2: understands that.
Speaker 1: And that's that's the beauty of very different tam with
Speaker 1: a podcast. So yeah, the impact and what we saw
Speaker 1: with Headley, and there's other podcasts that have achieved similar
Speaker 1: results by putting the spotlight on it. What made you
Speaker 1: get to the point? And I suppose it's obvious when
Speaker 1: it hasn't been solved and it's twenty years down the track,
Speaker 1: But at what point did you think I've got to
Speaker 1: do something? When did you start looking at the forum
Speaker 1: of a podcast to keep things ticking over?
Speaker 2: Well, that was twenty twenty one, I think so. My
Speaker 2: dad passed away in twenty twenty one, had brain cancer
Speaker 2: and towards the end he's a very smart, very articulate man,
Speaker 2: but also a real Aussie yobo at the same time.
Speaker 1: That makes most interesting combination.
Speaker 2: You always knew who was talking to on the phone
Speaker 2: with a business client or whether it was one of
Speaker 2: his brothers. You're telling two different people you can switch, yeah,
Speaker 2: but yeah, he he had the gift to the gap,
Speaker 2: suded Rachelle, and it was really cruel. His brain tumor
Speaker 2: took away speech and he couldn't speak I could imagine yeah,
Speaker 2: and yeah, when he was dying, I said, I'm going
Speaker 2: to get him, and that just because it was always
Speaker 2: Dad that led everything and and Mum's quieter yea. So
Speaker 2: I kind of felt a sense of responsibility to do
Speaker 2: something about it. And I always had like this not
Speaker 2: in my gut, that because I just wasn't doing anything,
Speaker 2: and I had her car. So I live out on
Speaker 2: a property in the New England region and the cars
Speaker 2: in the shed, so I walked past it every day.
Speaker 1: With the investigation, At what point did you start to,
Speaker 1: like I would imagine initially when the police was speaking
Speaker 1: to you saying we're getting a breakthrough or we're following
Speaker 1: up this lead, there would have been that feeling of Okay,
Speaker 1: this is going to work out. We're going to find
Speaker 1: out what's what's happened. At what point did you start
Speaker 1: to have concerns that, yeah, and it might be through
Speaker 1: no fault of anyone, that you thought, maybe this is
Speaker 1: not going to be solved or as simple as I
Speaker 1: thought it would be.
Speaker 2: Every second day, Yeah, you kind of ride the waves
Speaker 2: it really hopeful, and then you you know, something doesn't
Speaker 2: happen or something falls through, and you go we're just
Speaker 2: not going to get anywhere.
Speaker 1: So the years roll on, you've had the Yeah, the
Speaker 1: initial you said when Ivor was on it, it was
Speaker 1: contact all the time, being kept informed. When did that
Speaker 1: sort of sligh down?
Speaker 2: I don't really know. I can't really remember. It felt
Speaker 2: like years and years and years and years and years,
Speaker 2: and then we went to coroner's court and that wrapped
Speaker 2: it back up again.
Speaker 1: Okay, when how long after the coroner's court? How long
Speaker 1: after the urther did you end up in the coroner score?
Speaker 2: Two thousand and six to two thousand and eight, so
Speaker 2: it was five to seven years after.
Speaker 1: For the audience. A murder investigation invariably will run it
Speaker 1: that might there's no limit on the time. It might
Speaker 1: run for ten years before we think it's time for
Speaker 1: it to go to go to inquest. But generally, when
Speaker 1: you've exhausted all lines of inquiry on a homicide investigation
Speaker 1: at that point in time, and I'm talking general sense here,
Speaker 1: at that point in time, you go to the go
Speaker 1: to an inquest, and the role of the coroner is
Speaker 1: to find out the time, cause, and manner of manner
Speaker 1: of death. Who was running the investigation at the time
Speaker 1: it went to the inquest John Bryant, John Bryant, and
Speaker 1: where was he basically a local detective or.
Speaker 2: I?
Speaker 1: And did you have hopes that the inquest might might
Speaker 1: reveal things? What sort of things we you're hoping it
Speaker 1: might might come out?
Speaker 2: You would have been We just wanted to see one
Speaker 2: person in particular put under a lot of pressure.
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, we'll get into that in part too. You
Speaker 1: provided a brief of evidence. Did you get.
Speaker 2: Very much redacted brief evidence?
Speaker 1: Right? Okay, we don't have a lot of it. What
Speaker 1: did that tea you looking at the brief of evidence
Speaker 1: of Corona's brief?
Speaker 2: Well, we've got John Bryant's what do you call it?
Speaker 2: Summary summary? Yeah? Okay, yeah, so that that was really
Speaker 2: good to read. But we've only got a very small
Speaker 2: amount of statements, and they're not the ones that you
Speaker 2: you really want to see. They've kept those ones, which
Speaker 2: I've been trying really hard to get my hands on.
Speaker 1: Now. It's been my research. And I do remember the case.
Speaker 1: I remember the case. I was in homicide at the time,
Speaker 1: and I also remember the location. There's a young fellow
Speaker 1: I used to go down to camp in the bush
Speaker 1: down around Giraua and so how I just sort of
Speaker 1: sort of a place that it was for me with
Speaker 1: and the circumstances of how Rochelle was Rochelle was found,
Speaker 1: So I do remember it during that time time in homicide.
Speaker 1: But with the with the inquest, it's been described that
Speaker 1: there were nine persons of interest at the inquest. Would
Speaker 1: that be fair to say? And did you have hopes
Speaker 1: that the inquest was going to reveal something?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I hoped that it was going to be referred
Speaker 2: to the DPP.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's if the coroner's holding the inquest and
Speaker 1: it gets to a point where the coroner believes that
Speaker 1: there's an identifiable person that may be responsible for the
Speaker 1: death of the victim, they can refer the.
Speaker 2: Matter to them advice the police prosecutor, but they don't
Speaker 2: have to actually do anything.
Speaker 1: How How did how did you find the inquest?
Speaker 2: I take it we were there all day every day,
Speaker 2: Mum and dad and you know, other people here and there.
Speaker 2: But again I found that really empowering. It was like
Speaker 2: we're giving her a voice, and we thought we're going
Speaker 2: to get somewhere here. So we were quietly confident that
Speaker 2: something was going to come of it, and nothing did.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it can be frustrating. Sometimes with an increase,
Speaker 1: people think it's going to break it wide open. But
Speaker 1: you also have a situation where someone believes something they
Speaker 1: might say in the witness box may incriminate them. They've
Speaker 1: got the right to silence and they can not answer questions,
Speaker 1: which can get frustrating, sometimes incredibly frustrating. Yes, I'm saying
Speaker 1: a look on your face, we might take a break.
Speaker 1: Now we've got a sense of who Rochelle was, the
Speaker 1: impact that has on the family, Why are you doing
Speaker 1: the podcast? And when we get back, I want to
Speaker 1: talk about some of the things that you've uncovered during
Speaker 1: the podcast, because I've got to say, I have a
Speaker 1: sense of how much work has to go in to
Speaker 1: get all the information that's out there, and there's a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff that's come out you've uncovered, and a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff that the police have done, and I
Speaker 1: think it'll be a worthwhile discussion that we have in
Speaker 1: part two when we get back.
Speaker 2: Follow to Ail