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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,

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Speaker 1: I sat down with investigative journalist Ashley Hanson, and I

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Speaker 1: also spoke to Christy Charles. Chris is the younger sister

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Speaker 1: of a murdered twenty three year old Rochelle Charles, whose

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Speaker 1: partially burned body was discarded in a shallow ditch near

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Speaker 1: the New South Wales south coast town of Dureau on

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Speaker 1: the eighth of June two thousand and one. Sadly, Rochelle's

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Speaker 1: murder remains unsolved. Ashley and Christy have teamed up to

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Speaker 1: try and find out what happened to Rachelle and bring

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Speaker 1: the person responsible before the courts. They have meticulously researched

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Speaker 1: Rochelle's murder and they want justice. Their efforts are documented

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Speaker 1: in a podcast called Dear Rochelle. I spoke to them

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Speaker 1: about their podcast and what they are uncovering. I think

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Speaker 1: you'll find it interesting listening. Chrissy, it's nice to meet you,

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Speaker 1: but I'm sorry it's in these circumstances.

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Speaker 2: Thanks, it's nice to meet you too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's never nice going through what you've been

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Speaker 1: going through. So yeah, my sympathy for you. A long, long,

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Speaker 1: hard battle. But I'm happy that it's getting some media exposure.

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Speaker 2: Which certainly is yeah. Yeah, yeah, great.

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Speaker 1: You could miss it, miss it over the last week

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Speaker 1: or so, so that's been incredible. Yeah, Ashley, welcome to

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Speaker 1: our Catch Killers.

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Speaker 3: Great to be with you.

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Speaker 1: And congratulations on the podcast Dear Rachelle. Because I've been

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Speaker 1: listening to the episodes that are available at the moment

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Speaker 1: and i can see the work that's gone into it,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, I've found it very interesting.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Now, Christy, I want to talk about just the

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Speaker 1: impact this whole situation that's had on you. Your oldest

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Speaker 1: sister has been murdered. It's over twenty years ago, and

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Speaker 1: no one's been called into account for it. Can you

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Speaker 1: just explain to the listeners, because I think sometimes we

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Speaker 1: read these stories in the paper, but we don't fully

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Speaker 1: appreciate the impact that has on the people that are

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Speaker 1: left behind when someone's murdered.

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Speaker 2: I was only eighteen, I was very close to nineteen

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Speaker 2: at a time, so it was It's definitely one of

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Speaker 2: those things where line drawn in the sand in your life,

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Speaker 2: where what happened before and what happened after, And yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was it's all very blurry back then, but I

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Speaker 2: had to grow up really really quickly. Luckily, me, mum

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Speaker 2: and dad were so close, and you know, we always

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Speaker 2: had been that it sort of brought us closer together

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Speaker 2: in a way. But it's yeah, definitely incredibly traumatic for

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Speaker 2: all of us. Yeah, and she was just, yeah, so loved,

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Speaker 2: so all of her. We have a really big family,

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Speaker 2: plus she had a massive amount of friends. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was very far reaching the impact and it's still

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Speaker 2: having a massive impact on people Yeah, I.

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Speaker 1: Speak to people that have lost loved ones and on

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Speaker 1: anniversaries or reflecting where would that person be now ten

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Speaker 1: years down the track. And it's a big part of

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Speaker 1: your life that's missing, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, especially around Her birthday is the twenty sixth of May,

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Speaker 2: and she died on the eighth, seventh, eighth of June,

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Speaker 2: so there's like a two week period where you can't

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Speaker 2: even really talk to me. It's yeah, yeah, I just

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Speaker 2: sort of going to my little shell and I think

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Speaker 2: mum and dad or dad passed away a few years ago, right,

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Speaker 2: Mum does the same. But we always on those anniversaries

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Speaker 2: at eight o'clock, there's a group of us that we

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Speaker 2: just send each other a photo of a drink, a

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Speaker 2: burban or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes it works.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just you know, acknowledging that we all miss her,

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Speaker 2: and yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a tough situation. Actually, you've worked on the

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Speaker 1: podcast for the past six months or so. Do you

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Speaker 1: get a sense you're an investigative journalist. Do you get

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Speaker 1: a sense that when you actually get to know people

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Speaker 1: and the impact that a murder has on those the

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Speaker 1: family members and those close to the victim, you're getting

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Speaker 1: a sense of that with what you've been doing researching

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Speaker 1: and investigating this matter.

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Speaker 3: Oh for sure.

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Speaker 4: I think as a reporter for so many years beforehand,

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Speaker 4: I did have some exposure to families that have gone

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Speaker 4: through grief and whatnot. But I think to have known

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Speaker 4: Christy over this twelve month period or even longer than

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Speaker 4: that now and to just personally know her and to

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Speaker 4: hear and see the impact as the anniversary comes around,

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Speaker 4: as the birthday comes around, as we learn new things

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Speaker 4: and talk to all the people in Christie's life and

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Speaker 4: Rochelle's life that were so deeply traumatized from what happened,

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Speaker 4: I think that definitely hits you more as a journalist

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Speaker 4: and just makes you more committed to getting a positive

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Speaker 4: result out of this and getting some answers for Christy

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Speaker 4: and her mum in particular.

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Speaker 1: It makes sense because there is a disconnect when you

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Speaker 1: see the headlines in the news and you don't really

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Speaker 1: see the depth of it. I certainly was exposed to

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Speaker 1: it as a homicide detective, but I know if you're

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Speaker 1: working a long time doing investigative journalism with family members

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Speaker 1: that have lost the loved one, you see the pain.

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Speaker 4: You do and you feel that pressure as well, more

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Speaker 4: so because I'm so motivated and inspired by her and

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Speaker 4: her mum and their strength, and they're so stoic and

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Speaker 4: they haven't done this podcast because they want pity or

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Speaker 4: they want sympathy. They've done it because they just are

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Speaker 4: so determined to get those answers. And that's what motivates

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Speaker 4: motivates them, and that motivates me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you can. You actually feed off the family's determination.

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Speaker 1: So like, again, full credit to you, because I know

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Speaker 1: it's not easy with you, Christy dealing with this and

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Speaker 1: bringing it all up, but full admiration for you the

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Speaker 1: fact that you're fighting for justice for your sister.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. I actually find it quite empowering. I think

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Speaker 2: doing nothing is harder. Yeah, so this is, you know,

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Speaker 2: this is good for me. This is I feel like

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Speaker 2: I'm giving her a voice and I'm actually doing something

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Speaker 2: rather than waiting for someone else to do something.

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Speaker 1: The shame of it is, and I look at this

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Speaker 1: and not just speaking about Rochelle's case, the shame of

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Speaker 1: it is that the authority should be doing things. A

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Speaker 1: family shouldn't have to drive these matters, and sadly I've

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Speaker 1: seen it too much in my career where the families

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Speaker 1: are the driving force behind keeping an investigation active and ongoing,

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Speaker 1: and it really shouldn't be that way. If the system

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Speaker 1: was worked, something happens and then the courts, the police, everyone,

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Speaker 1: the media, everyone gets involved to ensure there's justice. But

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Speaker 1: it's not always the case.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I would hope that, you know, in the future,

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Speaker 2: that the media and the police could work together a

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Speaker 2: lot more closely, because the media is such a powerful tools,

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Speaker 2: you know, much further reaching than just the police on

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Speaker 2: their own.

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Speaker 1: Well, the beauty of the media and now had the

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Speaker 1: I was going to say luxury. I'm not sure if

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Speaker 1: that's the right word, but I've worked in both areas.

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Speaker 1: But when I was in the police, I understood the

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Speaker 1: power of the media, and the police can say it

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Speaker 1: doesn't impact on the attention that the media gets it,

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Speaker 1: but I can assure you if there's a tension from

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Speaker 1: the media on a particular case, that case tends to

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Speaker 1: get resource better. And also it becomes more thorough investigation,

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Speaker 1: which is sad, but it's just a reality.

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Speaker 2: Squeaky wheel thing, isn't it. Really Feel sorry for the

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Speaker 2: victims who don't have family or friends pushing for them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and quite often and I've encountered this quite often.

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Speaker 1: The victims don't feel they got the right to push. Well,

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Speaker 1: the police are handling this matter. And most people that

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Speaker 1: come into contact in a situation like you have, you

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Speaker 1: haven't had a lot of dealings with police, so you expect,

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Speaker 1: you think the police are You can't challenge what the

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Speaker 1: police are doing. You just got to wait till and

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Speaker 1: hope that they're doing the right thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right, And I think we were like that

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Speaker 2: for a really long time. And I think it's other

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Speaker 2: investigative journalists and other podcasts that sort of paved the way. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and you see the impact that they have had. My

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Speaker 2: good friend Mindy introduced me to this sort of platform. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: this is incredible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's a different It's definitely change the landscape.

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Speaker 1: And we'll talk more about the podcast and the impact.

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Speaker 1: But I think before we start, can we just for

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Speaker 1: our listeners that haven't heard the details, can we just

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Speaker 1: explain what the circumstances surrounding Rochelle's murder was, Ashley, do

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Speaker 1: you want to just give us some brief details?

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Speaker 2: Sure?

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Speaker 4: Well, on Thursday, the seventh of June two thousand and one,

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Speaker 4: Rochelle left work at Camden Holden where she was a

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Speaker 4: sales woman at this car yacht and they used to

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Speaker 4: specialize in Holden's and because Rochelle was a whole and

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Speaker 4: fanatic and it was almost a dream job right for her,

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Speaker 4: and she loved it, loved a job. And she was

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Speaker 4: going home back to Bargo, which is about a thirty

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Speaker 4: minute drive from her work. We believe she made it

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Speaker 4: home that night and she had plans to meet someone,

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Speaker 4: but we don't know exactly who she was meeting. And

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Speaker 4: she was never seen again alive. And nine hours later,

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Speaker 4: her burning body was found at Jiroa at seven Mile Beach,

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Speaker 4: which is one hundred kilometers away from her home in Bargo,

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Speaker 4: so far away from her circle of friends, very very

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Speaker 4: unusual place for her to go or.

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Speaker 2: I believe, I don't know that she's ever been down there, yeah,

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Speaker 2: other than when she was found down there.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So Christy went into a frantic search looking for

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Speaker 4: her because they didn't know that Rachelle had already been

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Speaker 4: killed when they were looking for her, because it was

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Speaker 4: so far away, I don't think they attached the missing

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Speaker 4: per and that when Christy went forward to the police

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Speaker 4: and said Rochelle's missing, and it was so out of

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Speaker 4: a character for her not to come home and not

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Speaker 4: to be in contact with her friends and family. So

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Speaker 4: Christy and all of your friends and family started to rally,

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Speaker 4: didn't you going looking for her? And then the devastating

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Speaker 4: news came through on the Sunday that Rachelle had been

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Speaker 4: found at Hiroa seven mile beach. And that's when a

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Speaker 4: murder investigation was well and truly underway.

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Speaker 1: And so when the Rochelle's body was discovered, it was

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Speaker 1: passed by that saw because she was partially burnt. And

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Speaker 1: I apologize here, Christy, because I know talking about it

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Speaker 1: is just yeah, it must invagal.

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Speaker 2: It's fine, We talk about it a lot, so.

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Speaker 1: Fine, Okay, Well, just so people understand the nature of

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Speaker 1: this crime, that Rochelle's body was discarded in bush Land

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Speaker 1: and set alight and someone was driving past in the

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Speaker 1: early hours of the morning saw the fire and then

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Speaker 1: I realized it was a human that was on fire.

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Speaker 1: Was Rochelle's car found that location? Where was Rochelle's car found?

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Speaker 4: Rochelle's car was found at the back of the Bargo

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Speaker 4: Hotel on the Saturday, so it had been there for

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Speaker 4: a couple of nights, at least two nights they believed.

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Speaker 3: The police believed.

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Speaker 4: That the car had been spotted there on the Thursday

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Speaker 4: night and the Friday night, and it was found and

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Speaker 4: seized by police on the Saturday.

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Speaker 3: But I'll let.

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Speaker 4: Christy tell you that her reaction when the car was found,

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Speaker 4: because from Christie's perspective, it was like a breakthrough because

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Speaker 4: they thought, well, maybe the car has been found.

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Speaker 3: Soon we'll find Rochelle. So I'll let her talk you

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Speaker 3: through that, but if you want, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I just clarify, when did you realize Rochelle was missing?

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Speaker 1: When did the concern Friday? Friday?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so you owner to Rochelle Thursday night, but I

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Speaker 2: rushed her off the phone because I was on the

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Speaker 2: other line. Was that old fashioned a lean line to

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Speaker 2: a friend, And then I forgot to call her back

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Speaker 2: and she was driving home in time. But yeah, the

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Speaker 2: next day she was supposed to meet Fiona, her good

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Speaker 2: friend that she worked with, and she didn't turn up. Sopha.

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Speaker 2: You went and tried looking for her, went to a

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Speaker 2: house and she said, something's wrong. I can't find her.

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Speaker 2: That's what started it. And it was calling police, calling hospitals,

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Speaker 2: driving around, calling everybody, getting everyone to call everybody. I

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Speaker 2: hadn't told mom and dad yet they were up at

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Speaker 2: Port Stephens at the time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so explain that. So it's Friday, Friday morning, Where.

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Speaker 2: Was Friday afternoon?

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Speaker 1: Friday afternoon? Yeah, and you try the phone, you check

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Speaker 1: all the places people she knows, and what was going

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Speaker 1: through your mind at the time.

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Speaker 2: I thought that she'd crash the car, right because she

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Speaker 2: liked to drive very fast.

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Speaker 1: I got the sense it will com okay.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's what I thought it had happened. I

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Speaker 2: thought she's gone off the road, she's rolled down the embankment.

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Speaker 2: We've got to finder. She's, you know, could be in

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Speaker 2: serious trouble. That's what I thought it happened. But when

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Speaker 2: we found the.

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Speaker 1: Car and that was so it was the Thursday night

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Speaker 1: and the car was found on the Saturday. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: at this point in time, you hadn't made the connection

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Speaker 1: to what her the cur that Gira.

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Speaker 2: No, I hadn't heard about that. So because we went

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Speaker 2: and put missing person's posters everywhere, I think the pub

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Speaker 2: called said that there's a car. I can't remember what happened,

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Speaker 2: but we went there. The car was locked up. I

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Speaker 2: don't actually remember this bit, but I was told that

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Speaker 2: my boyfriend at the time contacted the old owner and

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Speaker 2: got a spare key. Anyway, we managed to get into

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Speaker 2: the car, and I jumped in and sat in the

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Speaker 2: driver's seat and went. She didn't leave this year because

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Speaker 2: I couldn't. She was a lot shorter than me. Couldn't

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Speaker 2: touch the pedal. She did used to sit really far

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Speaker 2: back and drive. You know, you could only see this

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Speaker 2: much of her head. She'd drive with the toes and yeah,

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Speaker 2: she was assured you, but I couldn't reach the pedals.

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Speaker 2: It was pretty much all the way back. And the

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Speaker 2: clublock was on wrong. She had a really specific way

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Speaker 2: she put the clublock on. How There's like the that

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Speaker 2: part that goes around, it's sort of like a U shape,

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Speaker 2: and then you've got the long handle. She used to

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Speaker 2: put it on upside down and jam the handle into

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Speaker 2: the corner of the windscreen, and then she locked the

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Speaker 2: steering wheel, and the handle was down and the steering

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Speaker 2: wheel wasn't locked, and it was on facing forwards, and

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Speaker 2: she always put it on backwards.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so your assumption, based on that reasonable assumption, is

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Speaker 1: that she wasn't the person that put the car there.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent. She did not park that car there

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Speaker 2: because she was She'd had cars stolen a number of times.

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Speaker 2: She was really paranoid and that car was her pride

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Speaker 2: and joy, and she would not have left that car

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Speaker 2: Bargo Park.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you've missing all of Friday, missing Saturday, the

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Speaker 1: car has been found. You think, okay, we might get

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Speaker 1: some answers. Now, this might start to.

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Speaker 2: I think that's when I knew that something right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I know there's something serious.

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Speaker 1: And she wasn't the type of person that might have

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Speaker 1: just disappeared for a couple of days, got caught up

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Speaker 1: on something so out of the character. When did you

300
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Speaker 1: find out that the incident that Gira On Sunday?

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Speaker 2: Two detectives turned up because I lived with her at Bargo,

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Speaker 2: but I was at mum and Dad's house that weekend

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Speaker 2: looking after their house while they are away. Yeah, two

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Speaker 2: detectives turned up to Bargo, and I thought, oh, maybe

305
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Speaker 2: they founder Well they did, but yeah, that's when they

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Speaker 2: told me.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us what that was like? And I've

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Speaker 1: been at the position of the detective delivering that saw

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Speaker 1: the news. What was said and how did you react

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Speaker 1: and how did your family deal with the situation.

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Speaker 2: Well, I had a really big smile on my face,

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Speaker 2: like hoping that they were coming to tell me something good.

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Speaker 2: And it was Detective Ivor Davies who walked up and

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Speaker 2: put his hand on my shoulder and lent him and said,

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Speaker 2: your sister's dead. She's been murdered. She was found down

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Speaker 2: at GIRoA, And it was Yeah, everything else is very blurry,

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Speaker 2: but his face at that point is so crystal clear

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Speaker 2: in my mind. And later on I did feel really

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Speaker 2: sorry for him to be horrible to tell the family

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Speaker 2: that I don't remember what I did after that. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: she screamed cry, I don't know. Then Mum and dad

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Speaker 2: turned up and I went, I can't be here for this,

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Speaker 2: So I think I went out of the back.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I picked that up from the podcast listening to

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Speaker 1: one of the episodes of the podcast. How it was

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Speaker 1: just too confronting for you to see that news given

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Speaker 1: to your parents.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we kind of stayed like that too. We

329
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Speaker 2: always we just grieve separately because we went at each other,

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Speaker 2: but we still still talk about it all the time.

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Speaker 1: It's heavy, isn't it. Before we venture into what's been

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Speaker 1: uncovered and what you're doing with the podcast. I think

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Speaker 1: it's important that we get a sense of who Rachelle

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Speaker 1: was as a person. From an investigative point of view.

335
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Speaker 1: We call it victimology about finding, and that quite often

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Speaker 1: helps with solving cases. But I think it's also important

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Speaker 1: that we remember who she is. And so would you

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Speaker 1: like to tell us about the sister you knew?

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Speaker 2: Yep, she was really outgoing in a way in some respects.

340
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Speaker 2: She was actually quite shy, but yeah, really outgoing, really funny,

341
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Speaker 2: really quick witted, really smart, really pretty, got a lot

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Speaker 2: of attention.

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Speaker 1: She had it all going she did.

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Speaker 3: She had it all.

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Speaker 2: She was spawty. She could drive like you wouldn't believe. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: she'd like to race cars on and off the track. Yeah,

347
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Speaker 2: she was a real backer of the underdog. She had

348
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Speaker 2: a really good sense of justice. And yeah, she'd always

349
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Speaker 2: stick up for people if she thought that they were

350
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Speaker 2: being hard done by, and she was always there for

351
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Speaker 2: her friends. She'd call people out on their shit. Yeah,

352
00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,080
Speaker 2: she was awesome. She was really a good She was

353
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Speaker 2: my protected too. I was a little bit more shy

354
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Speaker 2: than she was. What was the age difference, four years

355
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:34,680
Speaker 2: she was four years older, all.

356
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Speaker 1: Right, So she was your role model? Yep, okay, we

357
00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,280
Speaker 1: shouldn't laugh. Very very good role model. Yes, And what

358
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Speaker 1: was the family dynamics like other brothers and sisters or no?

359
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:50,400
Speaker 2: It was just us two. I'm very much like Dad.

360
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Speaker 2: I guess we were both a bit more like Dad

361
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Speaker 2: than mum. Mum's beautiful, Mum's very soft, where Rachelle and

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Speaker 2: I probably had a bit more sittin us.

363
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Speaker 1: I guess three gang up on your mom with you

364
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:04,560
Speaker 1: gang up on your mom?

365
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, we were stirs. Dad was really hard working. He's

366
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Speaker 2: a business consultant and had a couple of businesses. He

367
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,800
Speaker 2: was gone most of the day. Mum would run us

368
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Speaker 2: around everywhere to softball, cricket, piano. When Rochelle lost a license, Mum.

369
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Speaker 1: Was we wonder why she lost a license?

370
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Speaker 2: Yeah, she was twenty three and I think she lost

371
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Speaker 2: the license two or three times by that stage.

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Speaker 1: Damn those highway control Yeah. Did she have dreams and aspirations?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she she did. It wasn't long before she died

374
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Speaker 2: that she went. I think she started to see that

375
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:48,320
Speaker 2: maybe being a news car saleswoman probably wasn't something that

376
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Speaker 2: she'd do forever. And I was at UNI at the time.

377
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,400
Speaker 2: And she said, I think I'd like to go to UNI.

378
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Speaker 2: And we were talking to dad about trying to get

379
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Speaker 2: him to help us buy a few acres because we

380
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,320
Speaker 2: had horses. All right, okay, so you just hit that

381
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 2: up alone. We can move out together and we live together,

382
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:10,000
Speaker 2: but we're only renting.

383
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Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a good plan.

384
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it was great when we lived together. It

385
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,840
Speaker 2: was a great fun. And we used to make punch

386
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:21,840
Speaker 2: in the vegetable CRUs but we had no vegetables in

387
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:23,520
Speaker 2: the fridge, but we used to make punch so the

388
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,119
Speaker 2: punch would stay cold. It was feel so broke I

389
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,520
Speaker 2: thought we could have for It was great fun.

390
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Speaker 1: I'm just getting the sense I reckon you guys got

391
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:33,400
Speaker 1: up to a fair bit of mischief, but you don't

392
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:34,199
Speaker 1: have to declare that.

393
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,040
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, innocent mischief.

394
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm sure there's some other stories that probably

395
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:44,400
Speaker 1: not fit for the audience at this stage. Actually, you've

396
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,760
Speaker 1: got to know the family. You've certainly got to know Chrissy.

397
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,560
Speaker 1: What's the sense of Rochelle that you get looking at

398
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,440
Speaker 1: from an investigative journalist's point of view and having a

399
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,560
Speaker 1: look into this family and getting to understand who Rochelle

400
00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 1: was well.

401
00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,119
Speaker 3: They still have a great sense of humor.

402
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,200
Speaker 4: And I can tell that Rachelle probably would have had

403
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:06,159
Speaker 4: one too, because Christy's funny and it's funny they still,

404
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 4: I mean. And I was telling her to tell me

405
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,800
Speaker 4: about the first press conference she ever did, and she

406
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 4: said that they were trying to find little funny moments

407
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,680
Speaker 4: in all of their dark times, and before the first

408
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,120
Speaker 4: press conference on Rochelle's murder.

409
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,560
Speaker 3: And said, oh, I should have got that facelift, you know,

410
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 3: I should have got that chin fixed.

411
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 4: And I just, you know, I just laugh and think,

412
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,720
Speaker 4: you know, they're just just warm and friendly people and

413
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 4: not complainers.

414
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:35,879
Speaker 2: You know.

415
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,880
Speaker 4: I remember when I asked, Anne, do you ever ask

416
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,159
Speaker 4: why I've lost so much? And she says, well, no,

417
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 4: I don't ask why me. I just ask why, And

418
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,400
Speaker 4: that was really I think that sums her up.

419
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Speaker 3: And Christy as well. They're not I don't want.

420
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 4: PD as I said before, They're just people that are

421
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 4: salt of the earth Australians and they want justice and

422
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,440
Speaker 4: I just really get a sense of that. And they're

423
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 4: just the Australian spirit, you know, the Australian sense of humor,

424
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 4: find you know, have a wicked sense of humor, but

425
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 4: at the same time always caring about other people. I mean,

426
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,159
Speaker 4: Christy's always checking in on me how I'm doing, and

427
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 4: I'm thinking, you are going through and opening these wounds

428
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 4: of the worst time in your life, and she's still

429
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,200
Speaker 4: always checking in on me after I speak to someone,

430
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 4: checking in on the person I interviewed, because she knows

431
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 4: that how traumatic it is for them to talk about

432
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:34,159
Speaker 4: the case and to talk about Rachelle. So they're just

433
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,440
Speaker 4: very warm and caring and loving people. And I'm sure

434
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,440
Speaker 4: that Rachelle would have been that person too.

435
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,399
Speaker 2: Cut from the same family. Yeah, yeah, that's really nice.

436
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:44,880
Speaker 2: Thank you.

437
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 1: Well, it's yeah, I don't know where you find strength,

438
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 1: And I think part of what Ashley said there, and

439
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,640
Speaker 1: that just amazes me, the human spirit where you can

440
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,480
Speaker 1: hang in there but still find some joy in life

441
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 1: too likely what's happened. And I think that's so many

442
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 1: times I've sat here with people or during my career

443
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 1: as a homicide detective, and they've got to be able

444
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 1: to just find some lighter moments, because otherwise the darkness

445
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 1: just drags you down and down. Okay, let's talk about

446
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 1: the investigation. You're dealing with police, So what was your

447
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 1: first impressions when police became involved in this situation.

448
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 2: They were so kind to us and they were all

449
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 2: guns blazing, they were up all night, they worked their

450
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 2: asses off and yeah, and they kept us informed the

451
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 2: whole way through. They were actually they became like family

452
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 2: with them all the time. I think they did the

453
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,399
Speaker 2: best they could with what they had, and the resources

454
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 2: dried up pretty quickly.

455
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 1: So who were you talking about the local detectives that

456
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 1: were working at the time.

457
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have a Davies in Peter Street with the

458
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,120
Speaker 2: two that I remember probably the most. And then Mick

459
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 2: ash Would in his team took over. I think a

460
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 2: year later.

461
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 4: Mick Ashwood did a review, So I'm not quite sure

462
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 4: how much he was involved in the leadership of the investigation,

463
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 4: but he certainly came into it about a year later.

464
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,679
Speaker 2: Yes, we've had a few different teams on it and

465
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 2: they've all been incredible people.

466
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 1: Well, that's that's good to hear. Mick would have been

467
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 1: unsolved at that time, I think when he did the

468
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 1: review on the PABs. But okay, in dealing with the

469
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:39,880
Speaker 1: police statements, things like the public don't normally understand what happens, Well.

470
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 2: It's you know, six hours in a in a police room,

471
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 2: being asked questions, being recorded, trying to remember everything. Yeah,

472
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 2: and just because you're so out of your mind at

473
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 2: the time, it's really hard to try and remember what happened,

474
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 2: you know. And it's there are a few different statements

475
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 2: that everyone did, a few different statements, but its hours

476
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 2: and hours and hours and hours and hours.

477
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 1: Of And I find with people as close to the

478
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 1: victim as you were with Rachelle, you're always second guessing.

479
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 1: Have I forgotten something? Is it something some detail that

480
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,120
Speaker 1: I'm missing or is there something that I saw that

481
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 1: I haven't bought up that type of thing.

482
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 2: Was that the definitely And the guilt, oh, guilt just

483
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 2: not being there and not calling it back and.

484
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: The moment you mentioned that, yeah, you didn't have to

485
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,399
Speaker 1: be Einstein to work out that you'd carry that guilt

486
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 1: with that. But and I see it so many times

487
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: people what if what if I did this? What if

488
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 1: I did that? The thing I say that it's you're

489
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: not to blame, it's the person done the crime, because

490
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 1: so many times I see so many times people beating

491
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 1: themselves up. Why didn't I pick the person up at

492
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 1: the railway station on why didn't I do this And

493
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 1: it's such a cruel thing, to a cruel thing to carry.

494
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, you carry it though I know.

495
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 1: I'm not a psychologist, so just do my best to

496
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 1: make you feel better. But I do understand. But what

497
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: I'm saying is you're not alone. There so many people are.

498
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 2: And you're right, there's only one person. We think one

499
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 2: person responsible.

500
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's where the attention needs to needs to

501
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 1: be focused on. So is there anything that looking And

502
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,879
Speaker 1: I'm not fishing for criticism here, I'm just asking is

503
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 1: there anything from a victim of the family of a

504
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 1: victim of homicide that police could do better, or the

505
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 1: media could do better or anyone? Was there anything that

506
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: troubled you?

507
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 2: Losing evidence is probably the main thing that troubles me. Yeah,

508
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,360
Speaker 2: because I just don't get how that happened.

509
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 1: What's what's the circumstances there?

510
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 2: CCTV that was collected, not watched and lost. Okay, the

511
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 2: is human error.

512
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 1: There's no excuse for it. It's human error. I think

513
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: we've homicide that Yeah, if you make mistakes, people literally

514
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 1: get away with murder and it's something that shouldn't shouldn't occur.

515
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 1: How long was either and his team working on it for.

516
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's very blurry. Yeah, that the first

517
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 2: twelve months is yeah, it's really hard for me to

518
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 2: remember anything.

519
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: Was there any breakthrough in that first twelve months where

520
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 1: you thought, okay, this is Yeah.

521
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 2: Every week it was like riding a roller coaster. The

522
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 2: persons of interest that we went through. Every time they

523
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 2: focused on someone, it's like, oh, it's them, and that's

524
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 2: it's not and then oh it's them, and they kept

525
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 2: us probably formed is probably too much because we rode

526
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 2: it with them. Yeah, and it was horrific, and it

527
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 2: was just a bunch of high hopes and you get

528
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 2: your hopes up on dead ends.

529
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: It's difficult from a police point of view if you,

530
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 1: like the family, want to stay updated. My mantra and

531
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: what I was taught was that, yeah, at some point

532
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: in time, I'll sit down and tell you absolutely everything

533
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: I know, but I've got to protect the integrity of

534
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: the investigation. So if I'm withholding something back, there's a

535
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: reason I'm not telling you. But the balance is, yeah,

536
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 1: the families deserve to know. The families should know. So

537
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 1: it's not a black and white there's a gray area

538
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: on how much the keep the families informed. Did you

539
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: have any thoughts as a sister, was something troubling you

540
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 1: or niggling away at you on what happened to her?

541
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, she was. She was really excited about getting a

542
00:29:54,360 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 2: warp control for the weekend. She was really really pumped about.

543
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: That and not being the car buff that Rachelle is.

544
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: Walking Shaw.

545
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 2: That's a v l SS group, ay, of course, top

546
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 2: of the line commodore.

547
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 3: I have never heard of a walking Shaw before this.

548
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: You said it with geez walking Shaw.

549
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 2: Okay, well it was so Peter Brock used to do

550
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 2: embarrassing bron so he did the v k SS group.

551
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 4: Ay.

552
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 2: There known as the blue meanies. There's white ones I

553
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 2: think as well. That was the model before something happened

554
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 2: with Peter Brock and Holden and then when they started

555
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 2: making VL commodores, the vl SS group pay top of

556
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 2: the line VL was Tom Walkinshaw. His name was put

557
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 2: to that current instead of a VL Brock. Now it

558
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 2: was a walkie walking Shaw and everyone called them walkie

559
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,719
Speaker 2: and they looked now I think you refer to them

560
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 2: as being a plastic pig. I don't think they like

561
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 2: them back then, but they're a classic now.

562
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, yeah, probably worth a lot of money now, Yeah,

563
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: and you reckon that Rachelle was the car that I'm

564
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: seeing a lot of information call.

565
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 2: As she said, I looked up for her a lot.

566
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 1: Okay.

567
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 2: Most of our friends were boys growing up. There was

568
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 2: a lot more boys than there were girls, So there

569
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 2: was cars and motorbikes and yeah.

570
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you said she was getting that car for

571
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: the weekend alone of the car or.

572
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, so she historically could pretty much take home many

573
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 2: cars she wanted from.

574
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 1: The lot because she was working in that in the car.

575
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, she brought home a black Senator once and beautiful cars.

576
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 2: So yeah, she was promised a walking Shaw for the

577
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:52,959
Speaker 2: long weekend and yeah, and she was really excited about it.

578
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 2: There was no walking Shaw. So in my opinion, that

579
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,959
Speaker 2: is the key to unlock what on earth happened, because

580
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 2: she wasn't a liar and she was really really excited

581
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 2: about getting this car. But there was no evidence of

582
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 2: a walking Shaw coming into the lot.

583
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 1: Okay, And when she was promised the car, that was

584
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: just information and she obviously told you or told the

585
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 1: friends that that's what she's going to get around.

586
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 2: Then, yeah, plans what we were going.

587
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: To do cruise the streets. Yeah, music on loud. Okay,

588
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: I'm starting to see a picture picture now, GIRoA. I

589
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: think we touched on it before. It held held no

590
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 1: significance to her that location.

591
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 2: No, we've got family at shoal Haven, but we didn't. Yeah,

592
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 2: we didn't go down there.

593
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 1: Okay. Was she seeing anyone at the time or was

594
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: she seeing.

595
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, she was seeing a kind of seeing a guy

596
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 2: named Lee.

597
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it was that was that serious? No, okay,

598
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: it was.

599
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 2: Very new and it was just a big casual think

600
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 2: she hadn't long broken up with Shane. It was her

601
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 2: long term boyfriend.

602
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 3: Right.

603
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 4: Just on that, Lee made a statement to police and

604
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 4: he spoke about Rachelle talking about how excited she was

605
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 4: about getting this walking shaw for the Dune long weekend.

606
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 4: So one of Lee's statements is critical to the case

607
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 4: because she told him on the Wednesday night, which was

608
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 4: the night before she was murdered, that she was supposedly

609
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 4: being loaned this hold and walking shaw. So that's another

610
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 4: independent witness apart from Christy, that says that she'd told

611
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 4: people that she believed that she was getting this walking

612
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 4: shaw for the long weekend. Okay, and Lee was a

613
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 4: person of interest, but he was also cleared really quickly

614
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 4: because his alibi was rock solid and he was with

615
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,959
Speaker 4: friends and family that night, so police looked into him

616
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 4: and he was one of many people that were looked

617
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 4: at that were in Rochelle's life was cleared.

618
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: Well, a crime of that nature and the sense that

619
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: I'm getting, you would be very much looking looking for

620
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: people close to Rachelle at the time of a disappearance,

621
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 1: so it doesn't surprise and there would be call in

622
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 1: persons of interest. The barrier can be set very low.

623
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: You can be a person of interest if you just

624
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 1: know the person or came in the contact. Her movements

625
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: on the Thursday night. Now I picked up on it

626
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: at one stage. It was she spoke to a friend

627
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: and said that she was considering going to a clubhouse

628
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 1: OMCG clubhouse. What was the backstory of that.

629
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 2: I'm not convinced with that.

630
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:41,879
Speaker 1: I don't know.

631
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 2: I've never heard her talk about going to a Rebels Artie.

632
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 2: I mean, they're known for being you know, people have

633
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 2: a really good time there. But it's not something that

634
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 2: she never went there that I knew of, And I

635
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 2: found I found it interesting that I hadn't heard that

636
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 2: from her because it was like we kept secrets from

637
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 2: another But yeah, there were two of her friends that

638
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 2: said that she was interested in going to the Rebels

639
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 2: clubhouse for a party.

640
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, that she'd have invited, that she'd been invited to one.

641
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 4: We don't actually know though, what night that was, whether

642
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 4: that was meant to be the Thursday night, because I

643
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 4: think when people start getting questioned about it and it

644
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 4: was months down the track, they couldn't definitively say which

645
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 4: night it was, or whether she just generally said, yeah,

646
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 4: I've been invited to a party and was planning to

647
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 4: go at some stage or where this Thursday night party

648
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 4: came from.

649
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 3: But what we know that the Thursday night.

650
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 4: They did look into it, and apparently there were no

651
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 4: gatherings on at the clubhouse that night.

652
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 1: What you get with investigations like this too, is you

653
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: get a lot of rumors and speculation, and you'll tell someone,

654
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,240
Speaker 1: someone will tell someone else, and it lands on the

655
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 1: doorstep of the police and then we track it back.

656
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 1: And I know I said that, but I didn't see it.

657
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: I just thought that might have happened. So there would

658
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 1: be a lot of a lot of work that was

659
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: required to be done. Do you know why homicide weren't

660
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: running the investigation at the start? Was that ever clarified

661
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 1: with you?

662
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 2: No?

663
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, we're going to break break the investigation down

664
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 1: a little bit more detail because there was an inquest

665
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,799
Speaker 1: and we can talk about that. But I just want

666
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: to talk about now, just jumping from the investigation a

667
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: little bit too. Why the podcast. Well, i'll start with you, Ashley.

668
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,720
Speaker 1: What got you interested in this particular case?

669
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 4: Well, after I left Channel seven and I was a

670
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 4: reporter there for about ten years, and had worked as

671
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,240
Speaker 4: a TV reporter for many years before that as well,

672
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 4: and I just wanted to focus on one case because

673
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 4: I was so used to just covering one story and

674
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 4: telling my story for the television news that night, and

675
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 4: I felt so limited, especially when I would do interviews

676
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 4: with victims' families, and I just wanted to do more.

677
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 4: So when I became it happened in my career that

678
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 4: I just had a bit of time on my hands.

679
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,879
Speaker 4: I was reassessing what I wanted to do next. Did

680
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 4: I want to be a newsreader or did I want

681
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 4: to get back into doing something else. And I felt

682
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 4: really strongly about doing a podcast. And getting into a

683
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 4: cold case because I've been inspired by Hitley Thomas.

684
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:44,720
Speaker 3: And his work, and I just thought of this case.

685
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 4: It was the first cold case that came to mind

686
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 4: and the reason and it became apparent to me why

687
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 4: I remembered it, and it was because I was twenty three.

688
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 4: I think give will take a year. I was definitely

689
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 4: in my early twenties when I first heard about Rochelle's case,

690
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 4: because I've was working at Prime TV down at Woollongong

691
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,280
Speaker 4: and I was just writing news updates and I remember

692
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 4: reading about it and having to write a very short

693
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 4: story on it and just thinking and seeing her photo

694
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 4: and I just remembered it because it evoked this shock

695
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 4: in me. And so when I was looking to do

696
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,319
Speaker 4: a cold case, that was the first one that came

697
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,879
Speaker 4: to mind, and I googled it and sure enough there

698
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 4: was an article with Christy in the article saying that

699
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 4: she was considering doing a podcast. And so I did

700
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 4: a bit more reading, a bit more research about the

701
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:38,240
Speaker 4: case to see, you know, it's more background of the case,

702
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 4: and then I reached out to Christy in December I

703
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 4: think it was, and I just sent her a message

704
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 4: on Facebook.

705
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:46,879
Speaker 3: Just thought it's worth a chat and.

706
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,720
Speaker 4: See what she's see how she felt about it, and

707
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 4: she ignored me.

708
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 1: Christy, I'll give you a rite to respond to that

709
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 1: a little bit later, Okay.

710
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:57,319
Speaker 3: She did.

711
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 2: I didn't know me message. It was sitting in the message.

712
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 4: Request, and I had it in my sort of diary

713
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 4: back of my mind to say I need to follow

714
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 4: her up. I actually need to get her phone number.

715
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,359
Speaker 4: So that was in the back of my mind. And

716
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 4: then I was following the Lady Vanisher's podcast their Facebook

717
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 4: page and someone from their Facebook page because that's another

718
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 4: wonderful podcast that I follow and someone posted on there,

719
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 4: can you please follow this page? And it was Christie's

720
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 4: Facebook page about campaigning for justice for Rachelle. And I thought, oh,

721
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,720
Speaker 4: my gosh, how strange that it was only just weeks

722
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,760
Speaker 4: earlier I'd messaged Christie's. So I messaged the Facebook page

723
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 4: directly and I said, I actually sent you a message

724
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 4: just a few weeks ago.

725
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 3: And she checked.

726
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 4: Her messages and sure enough there was my message in

727
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 4: her spam or wherever she ignores them.

728
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 3: And we just got talking and yeah, we spoke.

729
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 4: Then she told me that she was also talking to

730
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 4: Headley Thomas and I had two reactions. One was of

731
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 4: relief that this case did warrant a podcast in the

732
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,800
Speaker 4: sense that it was there was a lot of material,

733
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:19,359
Speaker 4: and it was one that would you could investigate. There

734
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 4: was no barriers in the sense that someone was before

735
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 4: a court or anything like that. And then the other

736
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 4: reaction was, well, she's never going to pick me over Headley.

737
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:31,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's a bit hard to match there.

738
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 4: But I did also think, you know what, if my

739
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 4: interest in this case might prompt Headley to locker in.

740
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 3: Or something like that, I was happy about that.

741
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 4: But as turned out, Headley was very deep in his

742
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:52,399
Speaker 4: investigation into Brongwyn and I believe that that's why he

743
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 4: couldn't commit to Christie and Rochelle's case. And he's such

744
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 4: an honest man and was genuine about that and got

745
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 4: back to Chris and said, I just can't give it

746
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 4: the time your sister's case deserves. And I think he was.

747
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 2: He was very well. I said to him, I've been

748
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 2: approached by Ashley Hansen. Yeah, and he said do it.

749
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 2: You're being good hands and he's.

750
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, Well, that's cudos to Headley and the whole

751
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:22,879
Speaker 1: environment with the podcast, and we refer the Teacher's Pet,

752
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 1: because it's one that so many people have listened to

753
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 1: and we understand what happened there. And I've had Hedley

754
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: sitting here in the chair you're sitting in and said

755
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,399
Speaker 1: to him, from my point of view, and I think

756
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 1: I'm entitled to offer that opinion. I know if he

757
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 1: didn't stir that up, that would that matter wouldn't have

758
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 1: been wouldn't have been solved, And the police might say, oh,

759
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: we would have got on to it. But it doesn't

760
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: happen that way. It's just the real world. Like put

761
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 1: the focus on that case, and then Lynette Dawson case

762
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 1: finally gets reopen looked at and lo and behold, a

763
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 1: person's in jail for it now, so I can understand

764
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 1: understand seeing and I take it. Chrissy, you saw the

765
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: results from what happened with Teacher's Pet, and is that

766
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 1: what was driving you towards steering it towards a podcast.

767
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. One of my best mates, Mindy Yep, put me

768
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 2: onto and she said, you need to listen to Headley

769
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 2: Thomas and start listening to the Teacher's Pet. And you know,

770
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 2: following Lynn Simms's case the whole way through it was incredible,

771
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 2: the work that he did and the justice that he

772
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 2: got her. Yeah, and I was all in, let's do it.

773
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's actually you could probably speak to this with

774
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 1: more understanding as a changing landscape in the media, isn't it.

775
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 1: With the type of power that a podcast and the

776
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 1: exposure that the podcast can get.

777
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 4: Game changing and because of the reach of the podcast,

778
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 4: because there is so much power in how many more

779
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:56,839
Speaker 4: people can listen to a case, and it's such a

780
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 4: personal thing, as you know, people put on their headphone.

781
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 4: People can listen to a podcast while they're commuting to

782
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 4: work or whatnot. And it's just such a great medium

783
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,839
Speaker 4: to put out so much information and to tell a

784
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 4: story and get people to start following it. Because a

785
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 4: TV documentary, if you look at that, is so much

786
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 4: more money and time goes into that. And also cameras,

787
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 4: people are so much more willing to just have their

788
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,839
Speaker 4: voice recorded. And I've worked in television for so many years,

789
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 4: so I know how hard it is to get people

790
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 4: on camera. So to just get people to sit there

791
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 4: with a microphone in front of them, is they do

792
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 4: just switch off and forget about the fact that they're

793
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 4: being recorded, And is so much more open about their

794
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 4: thoughts and their feelings and the case, and it's not

795
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 4: as intrusive as a TV documentary or a TV story.

796
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,399
Speaker 4: So I just think that that part of it makes

797
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 4: it a lot easier to get more people talking and

798
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 4: to put the story together in a way that needs

799
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 4: to be compelling, factual, but also engaging and hopefully to

800
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:12,280
Speaker 4: motivate those people that may have information to come forward.

801
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 4: But of course you need that support. You need people

802
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 4: to fall in love with the victim and the family

803
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 4: as well. That's really important for me. Part of the

804
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:25,240
Speaker 4: storytelling is to make sure that Rachelle is Her voice

805
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,360
Speaker 4: is one of the first things you hear in our podcast,

806
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 4: and that was just something that I am really focused on.

807
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:35,359
Speaker 4: That you hear her voice all the time and lots

808
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 4: of stories about her, and so people follow and want

809
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:39,839
Speaker 4: to help Christy.

810
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,399
Speaker 3: And her mum. You want them, That's what I think.

811
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 4: You need that emotional connection, and you don't get that

812
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 4: if you don't have family and friends talking about them

813
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 4: and yeah, making them so relatable.

814
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 3: I mean, Michelle is so relatable.

815
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 4: As I said, I heard about her case when I

816
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 4: was in my early twenties and just hearing about her

817
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 4: love life and what.

818
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:00,799
Speaker 3: She is to get up to and things like that.

819
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,839
Speaker 4: It is so likable, lovable, but relatable.

820
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think with the podcast too, they don't

821
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 1: have the restrictions that the more established media have in

822
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 1: that they're not beholding to the police and so quite

823
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 1: often with the police. And it's not all attacking the police,

824
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 1: it's just the way of the world that a media

825
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 1: outlet is going to respond to. If police say no,

826
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 1: I want you to hold back on this because we're

827
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 1: sitting on something, don't release it, they're more inclined to

828
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 1: step back. Whereas a podcast it's a community involvement. It

829
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 1: feels like it's more of the community. It's not just

830
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 1: the established news networks or media outlets, so the police

831
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 1: have less control and that allows for more scrutiny of

832
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 1: the investigation. That's the way I see it as well.

833
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 1: Would you agree with that?

834
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's really important. And I've said

835
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 2: from the beginning, just you know, before I knew her

836
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 2: really well, just to keep bash accountable. It's about her.

837
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 2: It's not a story, Yep, it's not. It's not going

838
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 2: to advance someone's career, it's not going to make a

839
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,800
Speaker 2: heap of money. It is about her and Ash completely

840
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 2: understands that.

841
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 1: And that's that's the beauty of very different tam with

842
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 1: a podcast. So yeah, the impact and what we saw

843
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 1: with Headley, and there's other podcasts that have achieved similar

844
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 1: results by putting the spotlight on it. What made you

845
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 1: get to the point? And I suppose it's obvious when

846
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 1: it hasn't been solved and it's twenty years down the track,

847
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 1: But at what point did you think I've got to

848
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:39,360
Speaker 1: do something? When did you start looking at the forum

849
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 1: of a podcast to keep things ticking over?

850
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 2: Well, that was twenty twenty one, I think so. My

851
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,800
Speaker 2: dad passed away in twenty twenty one, had brain cancer

852
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 2: and towards the end he's a very smart, very articulate man,

853
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 2: but also a real Aussie yobo at the same time.

854
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 1: That makes most interesting combination.

855
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 2: You always knew who was talking to on the phone

856
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 2: with a business client or whether it was one of

857
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 2: his brothers. You're telling two different people you can switch, yeah,

858
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 2: but yeah, he he had the gift to the gap,

859
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 2: suded Rachelle, and it was really cruel. His brain tumor

860
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 2: took away speech and he couldn't speak I could imagine yeah,

861
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 2: and yeah, when he was dying, I said, I'm going

862
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:27,240
Speaker 2: to get him, and that just because it was always

863
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 2: Dad that led everything and and Mum's quieter yea. So

864
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 2: I kind of felt a sense of responsibility to do

865
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 2: something about it. And I always had like this not

866
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,280
Speaker 2: in my gut, that because I just wasn't doing anything,

867
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 2: and I had her car. So I live out on

868
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 2: a property in the New England region and the cars

869
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 2: in the shed, so I walked past it every day.

870
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 1: With the investigation, At what point did you start to,

871
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:59,320
Speaker 1: like I would imagine initially when the police was speaking

872
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:01,760
Speaker 1: to you saying we're getting a breakthrough or we're following

873
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 1: up this lead, there would have been that feeling of Okay,

874
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 1: this is going to work out. We're going to find

875
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 1: out what's what's happened. At what point did you start

876
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 1: to have concerns that, yeah, and it might be through

877
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: no fault of anyone, that you thought, maybe this is

878
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 1: not going to be solved or as simple as I

879
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 1: thought it would be.

880
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:24,320
Speaker 2: Every second day, Yeah, you kind of ride the waves

881
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 2: it really hopeful, and then you you know, something doesn't

882
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 2: happen or something falls through, and you go we're just

883
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 2: not going to get anywhere.

884
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 1: So the years roll on, you've had the Yeah, the

885
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 1: initial you said when Ivor was on it, it was

886
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 1: contact all the time, being kept informed. When did that

887
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:46,399
Speaker 1: sort of sligh down?

888
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 2: I don't really know. I can't really remember. It felt

889
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 2: like years and years and years and years and years,

890
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 2: and then we went to coroner's court and that wrapped

891
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:55,280
Speaker 2: it back up again.

892
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 1: Okay, when how long after the coroner's court? How long

893
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:01,760
Speaker 1: after the urther did you end up in the coroner score?

894
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 2: Two thousand and six to two thousand and eight, so

895
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 2: it was five to seven years after.

896
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 1: For the audience. A murder investigation invariably will run it

897
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 1: that might there's no limit on the time. It might

898
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 1: run for ten years before we think it's time for

899
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:19,839
Speaker 1: it to go to go to inquest. But generally, when

900
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:24,359
Speaker 1: you've exhausted all lines of inquiry on a homicide investigation

901
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 1: at that point in time, and I'm talking general sense here,

902
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 1: at that point in time, you go to the go

903
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:32,239
Speaker 1: to an inquest, and the role of the coroner is

904
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:35,800
Speaker 1: to find out the time, cause, and manner of manner

905
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:39,399
Speaker 1: of death. Who was running the investigation at the time

906
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 1: it went to the inquest John Bryant, John Bryant, and

907
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 1: where was he basically a local detective or.

908
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 2: I?

909
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,839
Speaker 1: And did you have hopes that the inquest might might

910
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 1: reveal things? What sort of things we you're hoping it

911
00:49:58,760 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 1: might might come out?

912
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 2: You would have been We just wanted to see one

913
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 2: person in particular put under a lot of pressure.

914
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, we'll get into that in part too. You

915
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 1: provided a brief of evidence. Did you get.

916
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 2: Very much redacted brief evidence?

917
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 1: Right? Okay, we don't have a lot of it. What

918
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:20,760
Speaker 1: did that tea you looking at the brief of evidence

919
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:21,720
Speaker 1: of Corona's brief?

920
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 2: Well, we've got John Bryant's what do you call it?

921
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:31,799
Speaker 2: Summary summary? Yeah? Okay, yeah, so that that was really

922
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 2: good to read. But we've only got a very small

923
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:39,880
Speaker 2: amount of statements, and they're not the ones that you

924
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,879
Speaker 2: you really want to see. They've kept those ones, which

925
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:44,719
Speaker 2: I've been trying really hard to get my hands on.

926
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:50,439
Speaker 1: Now. It's been my research. And I do remember the case.

927
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 1: I remember the case. I was in homicide at the time,

928
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,839
Speaker 1: and I also remember the location. There's a young fellow

929
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:57,320
Speaker 1: I used to go down to camp in the bush

930
00:50:57,320 --> 00:50:59,840
Speaker 1: down around Giraua and so how I just sort of

931
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 1: sort of a place that it was for me with

932
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 1: and the circumstances of how Rochelle was Rochelle was found,

933
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 1: So I do remember it during that time time in homicide.

934
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:17,279
Speaker 1: But with the with the inquest, it's been described that

935
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:20,719
Speaker 1: there were nine persons of interest at the inquest. Would

936
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 1: that be fair to say? And did you have hopes

937
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,360
Speaker 1: that the inquest was going to reveal something?

938
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 2: Yeah? I hoped that it was going to be referred

939
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 2: to the DPP.

940
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's if the coroner's holding the inquest and

941
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 1: it gets to a point where the coroner believes that

942
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:44,440
Speaker 1: there's an identifiable person that may be responsible for the

943
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 1: death of the victim, they can refer the.

944
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 2: Matter to them advice the police prosecutor, but they don't

945
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 2: have to actually do anything.

946
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:56,280
Speaker 1: How How did how did you find the inquest?

947
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 2: I take it we were there all day every day,

948
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 2: Mum and dad and you know, other people here and there.

949
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 2: But again I found that really empowering. It was like

950
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 2: we're giving her a voice, and we thought we're going

951
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 2: to get somewhere here. So we were quietly confident that

952
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:20,720
Speaker 2: something was going to come of it, and nothing did.

953
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 1: So yeah, it can be frustrating. Sometimes with an increase,

954
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 1: people think it's going to break it wide open. But

955
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:32,359
Speaker 1: you also have a situation where someone believes something they

956
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:35,120
Speaker 1: might say in the witness box may incriminate them. They've

957
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 1: got the right to silence and they can not answer questions,

958
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:43,319
Speaker 1: which can get frustrating, sometimes incredibly frustrating. Yes, I'm saying

959
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 1: a look on your face, we might take a break.

960
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 1: Now we've got a sense of who Rochelle was, the

961
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 1: impact that has on the family, Why are you doing

962
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:56,800
Speaker 1: the podcast? And when we get back, I want to

963
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 1: talk about some of the things that you've uncovered during

964
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 1: the podcast, because I've got to say, I have a

965
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 1: sense of how much work has to go in to

966
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 1: get all the information that's out there, and there's a

967
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 1: lot of stuff that's come out you've uncovered, and a

968
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 1: lot of stuff that the police have done, and I

969
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 1: think it'll be a worthwhile discussion that we have in

970
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 1: part two when we get back.

971
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:17,759
Speaker 2: Follow to Ail