WEBVTT - Chris Jones, Chief Editor Courier Mail 0:00:05.881 --> 0:00:07.281 Appod Shay Production. 0:00:10.721 --> 0:00:14.441 Welcome to another episode of Brave Always the CEO series. 0:00:14.681 --> 0:00:18.480 This series we launch into the new world of brave leadership. 0:00:18.601 --> 0:00:20.761 Happy people create happy businesses. 0:00:20.561 --> 0:00:22.921 True emotionally intelligent leadership. 0:00:22.961 --> 0:00:24.961 I picked up vomit once on our about our four 0:00:25.041 --> 0:00:27.561 flight and everybody thought, well, if it's good enough for him, 0:00:27.681 --> 0:00:28.401 I can do it now. 0:00:28.481 --> 0:00:31.081 We will be joined by culture and leadership. 0:00:30.641 --> 0:00:35.040 Experts and some superstar CEOs who will courageously tell us 0:00:35.081 --> 0:00:37.601 the truth behind their brave leadership journeys. 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:40.761 I am delighted to have with me in studio. News 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:42.201 Corp Australia's. 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:44.521 Queensland editor and the editor of the Career Mail, mister 0:00:44.601 --> 0:00:48.321 Chris Jones. Chris has had an impressive twenty one year 0:00:48.361 --> 0:00:50.721 career with News Corps, spanning his early days as a 0:00:50.721 --> 0:00:53.441 reporter to head of news and now finding it the 0:00:53.441 --> 0:00:55.721 helm of one of the leading newspapers in the country. 0:00:56.081 --> 0:00:59.200 He also co hosts Towards the Game's podcast with Lutzi, 0:00:59.401 --> 0:01:02.081 where they explore the journey of Brisbane's transformation for the 0:01:02.121 --> 0:01:03.921 twenty thirty two Olympic Games. 0:01:04.321 --> 0:01:04.961 Welcome Chris. 0:01:05.721 --> 0:01:07.440 I'm so happy to be here. Emma. 0:01:07.721 --> 0:01:10.961 I think what you're doing is really impressive. You're giving 0:01:10.961 --> 0:01:14.161 a permission to be vulnerable, particularly for male leaders I 0:01:14.161 --> 0:01:15.761 think find it quite difficult. 0:01:15.881 --> 0:01:16.360 Thank you. 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:18.681 And you know, it's funny like over the last few years, 0:01:18.721 --> 0:01:20.920 particularly with running my business, you know, I have the 0:01:21.121 --> 0:01:23.521 pleasure of often working with a lot of executives and 0:01:23.601 --> 0:01:26.000 CEOs in their field, and people will say to me 0:01:26.041 --> 0:01:28.641 afterwards like we're they scary, Like it's like they're. 0:01:28.441 --> 0:01:29.361 Just human beings. 0:01:29.441 --> 0:01:31.681 Yeah, That's kind of what this is about, is that 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:34.161 success doesn't mean that you don't have all of the 0:01:34.241 --> 0:01:37.560 human emotions, and people can see that in a different way, 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:40.121 and it's sort of sometimes I think will put people 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:42.800 off moving to the type or pushing themselves the top 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:44.640 or whether they can even get there because they're not 0:01:44.721 --> 0:01:47.200 completely stoic and you know, they don't have these things. 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:49.081 So it is kind of allowing people to see that 0:01:49.201 --> 0:01:51.321 it's both sides of the coins you. 0:01:51.361 --> 0:01:53.641 I appreciate that. How's a year started for you? 0:01:53.681 --> 0:01:56.841 Good? Busy. It's always busy, but always exciting as well. 0:01:56.881 --> 0:01:59.361 You know, we're coming up to a federal election, you know, 0:01:59.401 --> 0:02:01.361 off the back of a state election with the change 0:02:01.361 --> 0:02:02.961 of government and a lot of what we do as 0:02:03.041 --> 0:02:05.881 politics yeah, it's courts and crime and and so on. 0:02:05.961 --> 0:02:10.041 But I think what makes newspapering in the digital sense 0:02:10.121 --> 0:02:12.601 these days as well as print, but newspapering different to 0:02:12.641 --> 0:02:15.601 other media is the time that we spent thinking about 0:02:15.601 --> 0:02:18.441 politics and so on, and the role that we play 0:02:19.161 --> 0:02:22.120 in terms of meaning. That's probably the central point of 0:02:22.281 --> 0:02:24.240 why journalism calls. 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:25.761 People, is the ability to use. 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:29.281 The platform to make a difference. You tend to do 0:02:29.321 --> 0:02:32.361 that through politicians and the decisions that they make, and 0:02:32.561 --> 0:02:35.361 leading them to that is really meaningful. So I always 0:02:35.361 --> 0:02:38.041 start the year feeling relaxed after a big break, but 0:02:38.121 --> 0:02:40.321 also excited about what's to come. You have a big break, 0:02:40.361 --> 0:02:43.041 always do four weeks. I always do not much more 0:02:43.121 --> 0:02:46.321 other than just sitting on my ass as much as possible, 0:02:46.401 --> 0:02:48.881 Try not to travel too far, yep, and just do 0:02:48.921 --> 0:02:51.800 a proper reset so you can come back fresh. 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:53.400 That's good, good ritual. 0:02:53.721 --> 0:02:56.281 Now I'm guessing that journalists just have an amazing way 0:02:56.281 --> 0:02:58.840 of ensuring that there's little information about them out there. 0:02:58.881 --> 0:03:01.241 So congratulations, you've done a good job with that. The 0:03:01.321 --> 0:03:03.680 least amount of things I could recently human being with you, 0:03:04.041 --> 0:03:05.681 I couldn't even forget what we were born are you 0:03:05.721 --> 0:03:06.721 born in Brisbane? 0:03:06.881 --> 0:03:08.520 Well, I think part of that is I don't think 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:10.921 we're very good at telling our own story, you. 0:03:10.841 --> 0:03:12.921 Know, So it's because you know what you're like. 0:03:12.921 --> 0:03:14.281 On the other end of the picture, I think. 0:03:14.201 --> 0:03:17.841 It's because you spend your career telling other people's stories 0:03:17.841 --> 0:03:19.880 and leaning into them. It's kind of yeah, you find 0:03:19.921 --> 0:03:22.961 it quite confronting. So I was born in Melbourne but 0:03:23.721 --> 0:03:26.441 grew up in Brisbone. One of the interesting things when 0:03:26.481 --> 0:03:29.361 I think about my career and leadership journey and someone 0:03:29.481 --> 0:03:32.241 is all I ever wanted to do was be the 0:03:32.361 --> 0:03:33.520 editor of the Korean Mail. 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:35.201 No you didn't, Are you serious? 0:03:35.361 --> 0:03:35.561 Yeah? 0:03:35.601 --> 0:03:38.801 Absolutely, So it's great to have achieved it. And I've 0:03:38.801 --> 0:03:41.361 been in this gig for five years. And it's kind 0:03:41.401 --> 0:03:43.201 of interesting as well, where you reach a point at 0:03:43.201 --> 0:03:46.281 which you've hit your goal and you can do it 0:03:46.321 --> 0:03:48.161 for a period of time. But I've got twenty or 0:03:48.161 --> 0:03:50.601 thirty years still in the workplace, and I guarantee you 0:03:50.601 --> 0:03:52.201 I won't be able to the corean male for twenty 0:03:52.321 --> 0:03:54.601 or thirty years from now, So you know, it's a 0:03:54.601 --> 0:03:56.241 bit of a crossroads moment as well. 0:03:56.121 --> 0:03:58.401 I bet were you delivering newspapers as a young boy? 0:03:58.441 --> 0:03:59.121 What was it about. 0:03:59.841 --> 0:04:02.641 I just love journalism, and I do love newspapers as 0:04:02.721 --> 0:04:05.481 much as you know. We're a digital subscription business now 0:04:05.521 --> 0:04:07.681 that happens to do a newspaper, and the newspaper's still 0:04:07.761 --> 0:04:10.161 really important and we still print a lot of them 0:04:10.201 --> 0:04:12.161 every night light, but you know, the future is the 0:04:12.161 --> 0:04:15.241 digital subscription business. But I just love There's something beautiful 0:04:15.281 --> 0:04:17.721 about a newspaper and I've always been in love with it, 0:04:17.801 --> 0:04:19.801 the romance of it. Like I said, I did put 0:04:19.801 --> 0:04:21.561 out that little one in the street for a few 0:04:21.641 --> 0:04:24.241 years in the end of primary school and loved that 0:04:24.401 --> 0:04:27.641 and just always had a real affection for them. And 0:04:27.721 --> 0:04:30.960 what it's growing into is a love of journalism and 0:04:31.001 --> 0:04:34.361 as I say, the meaning behind great journalism and the 0:04:34.801 --> 0:04:38.321 impact that you can have in telling, you know, the 0:04:38.361 --> 0:04:43.401 stories of everyday heroes or sporting heroes, or indeed driving 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:45.280 significant change. 0:04:45.601 --> 0:04:47.520 I mean, obviously this there's a lot about the passion 0:04:47.561 --> 0:04:50.161 you have for this. The purpose of being in this 0:04:50.201 --> 0:04:52.440 field is to make change for good. It sounds like 0:04:52.561 --> 0:04:53.721 wherever you possibly. 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:57.161 Can, I think journalism absolutely is a calling. Yeah, there 0:04:57.201 --> 0:04:59.241 was a period there where every English teacher told their 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:02.841 kids who were good at English to choose journalism. Some 0:05:04.001 --> 0:05:05.961 of the best journalists in the world world can't string 0:05:05.961 --> 0:05:06.801 a sentence together. 0:05:07.001 --> 0:05:08.281 Yeah, but they know what. 0:05:08.241 --> 0:05:10.561 A great story is, that you have the right motivation, 0:05:11.241 --> 0:05:13.361 and they know how to put those things together tocue 0:05:13.401 --> 0:05:17.201 great outcomes. And the way you motivate a team of 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:23.281 journalists is not to give them rewards or clap their 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:26.961 paid cynics. So the traditional workplace Friday afternoon stuff makes 0:05:27.001 --> 0:05:27.760 them feel awkward. 0:05:28.361 --> 0:05:30.481 The way that you motivate. 0:05:30.081 --> 0:05:33.361 A team of journalists is really just back their stories, 0:05:33.801 --> 0:05:36.361 back in what they want to tell and the change 0:05:36.401 --> 0:05:38.721 that they want to make. I'd be very surprised if 0:05:38.761 --> 0:05:42.200 there's many successful journalists who wouldn't just consider it a 0:05:42.241 --> 0:05:45.161 total calling rather than a job that you turn up 0:05:45.161 --> 0:05:45.641 to and do. 0:05:45.681 --> 0:05:46.721 For eight hours a day. 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:49.321 So then on the flip side, given this is to 0:05:49.401 --> 0:05:52.561 purpose driven thing for yourself and for most journalists, probably 0:05:53.001 --> 0:05:54.841 when you're in the reporting space, and let's say in 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:58.361 particular talking in politics right where sometimes sometimes a lot 0:05:58.401 --> 0:06:01.121 of what said is to be popular, is it conflicting 0:06:01.161 --> 0:06:02.961 for you? Then when you see people not using that 0:06:03.041 --> 0:06:04.001 platform for good. 0:06:04.201 --> 0:06:07.001 I think one of the the challenges that the industry 0:06:07.041 --> 0:06:11.121 has had over the past fifteen twenty years is the 0:06:11.241 --> 0:06:15.841 rise of a celebrity journalist. I think journalists are best 0:06:16.081 --> 0:06:21.761 when they're not the story, but absolutely in the middle 0:06:21.801 --> 0:06:26.041 of it, so that they can provide the behind the scenes, 0:06:26.641 --> 0:06:32.081 genuinely informed analysis and commentary. Analysis is better than commentary 0:06:32.201 --> 0:06:36.281 if you're a journalist to then allow the readers into 0:06:37.001 --> 0:06:40.720 those I suppose sacred spaces that readers would never actually 0:06:40.761 --> 0:06:43.361 get access to it. The great thing about covering politics 0:06:43.521 --> 0:06:45.921 is that you do get access to those things. The 0:06:45.961 --> 0:06:48.481 greatest other than obviously being the end of the Curry Mail, 0:06:48.561 --> 0:06:50.081 the greatest time in my life was when I was 0:06:50.081 --> 0:06:53.320 in the Press Gallery in Canberra in two thousand and three, 0:06:53.401 --> 0:06:56.281 in two thousand and four, and just the way you 0:06:56.401 --> 0:07:01.521 just witness history in those halls, you're part of significant moments. 0:07:01.681 --> 0:07:03.841 Bringing the readers into that is actually part of the 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:07.080 job of a great journalist, but never actually turning the 0:07:07.161 --> 0:07:08.361 camera onto yourself. 0:07:08.681 --> 0:07:10.921 Does it worry that if you ever changed career pass 0:07:10.921 --> 0:07:12.721 that you'd ever find the same adorenaline that you get 0:07:12.761 --> 0:07:13.001 from this. 0:07:13.841 --> 0:07:15.961 I'm not sure I could ever not be a journalist. 0:07:17.481 --> 0:07:18.601 Yeah, fair enough, fair enough. 0:07:18.961 --> 0:07:21.721 Going back to when you first started your career, I 0:07:21.721 --> 0:07:23.561 did really comment that you said, I think you were 0:07:23.601 --> 0:07:25.041 a reporter for the Weekly Outdoors. 0:07:25.121 --> 0:07:26.601 I think that's what your first role was. 0:07:26.881 --> 0:07:28.681 Look, I won the lottery early in life. 0:07:29.881 --> 0:07:31.481 I was at UNI. I was second year UNI. 0:07:31.521 --> 0:07:33.481 I met the great Dennis Watt, now the chair of 0:07:33.561 --> 0:07:36.281 the Goldcast Titans, one of the greatest journalists ever. He 0:07:36.441 --> 0:07:39.281 was chief of staff I think at the time. And 0:07:39.321 --> 0:07:42.601 I met him in a journalism student Association function and 0:07:42.681 --> 0:07:45.161 he said, with all this stuff you've done, I've done 0:07:45.161 --> 0:07:47.521 a bit of boating and fishing sort of magazine worked 0:07:47.561 --> 0:07:49.841 just as a part time gig to get me through UNI. 0:07:49.921 --> 0:07:51.921 He said, you really should be putting your name up 0:07:51.961 --> 0:07:53.881 to Chris Mitchell, who was the edder at the time. 0:07:54.641 --> 0:07:57.121 So I sent off package Popoli. I sent it off 0:07:57.201 --> 0:07:59.641 and I didn't hear anything for a couple of months. 0:07:59.841 --> 0:08:01.641 Now it's a phone call from Chris Mitchell's the AA 0:08:01.881 --> 0:08:05.001 saying come in on this date next Monday or whatever. 0:08:05.081 --> 0:08:06.441 So I went and bought a tie and did all 0:08:06.441 --> 0:08:07.921 that sort of stuff that you do when you're young 0:08:08.041 --> 0:08:11.401 and going for your first job interview. I sat down 0:08:11.441 --> 0:08:13.081 and Chris basically said I love what you've done. 0:08:13.081 --> 0:08:13.201 Here. 0:08:13.241 --> 0:08:17.401 We're starting a weekly week end well outdoors. It was 0:08:17.401 --> 0:08:21.081 called outdoors supplement. Yeah, on a Friday, I'd love you 0:08:21.161 --> 0:08:23.161 to come in and be the reporter for that. So 0:08:23.241 --> 0:08:26.721 the first maybe twelve months of my career was literally 0:08:26.841 --> 0:08:29.401 jumping out of planes and riding around in boats and 0:08:29.441 --> 0:08:32.481 calling it journalism. It was the weecked and I did 0:08:32.481 --> 0:08:35.321 my best to hide myself over in the corner. But 0:08:35.881 --> 0:08:37.961 it only lasted a year or so before you know, 0:08:38.081 --> 0:08:39.841 the rest of the room figured out all the chief 0:08:39.841 --> 0:08:43.041 of staff who wasn't Don figured out that I was there, 0:08:43.441 --> 0:08:45.121 and obviously I had a bit of talent, and they 0:08:45.161 --> 0:08:47.121 brought me into the news world and off we went. 0:08:47.201 --> 0:08:48.001 That was a great year. 0:08:48.161 --> 0:08:48.481 Yeah. 0:08:48.521 --> 0:08:50.281 So I mean, I'm getting this sense that you're the 0:08:50.361 --> 0:08:52.161 kind of person when you sit your mind to something, 0:08:52.321 --> 0:08:54.161 you just go for it. Is that true? Or does 0:08:54.161 --> 0:08:55.601 a lot of fear and doubt come into play? Is 0:08:55.641 --> 0:08:57.161 that sort of a front or in the background, and 0:08:57.161 --> 0:08:59.001 you thinking can I do this? Like I'm not even 0:08:59.041 --> 0:09:01.001 finished my degree here, I'm just going to leap in 0:09:01.041 --> 0:09:01.441 and do this. 0:09:01.881 --> 0:09:04.041 I think self awareness is so important in leadership. So 0:09:04.041 --> 0:09:05.041 I've spent a lot of time doing it. 0:09:05.881 --> 0:09:09.961 My natural work persona, which is not inauthentic to home, 0:09:10.121 --> 0:09:12.641 you know, is a classic Myers Briggsy and TJ. 0:09:12.921 --> 0:09:14.081 You know, it's the full. 0:09:13.961 --> 0:09:18.281 Napoleon Steve Jobs commander type. Okay, if you're more of 0:09:18.281 --> 0:09:22.641 a fan of the HBDI, I'm everything in equal measure 0:09:22.801 --> 0:09:26.041 other than the red quadrant, the WHO stuff. So I'm 0:09:26.041 --> 0:09:30.001 all about the what, how, why rather than the Who. Naturally, 0:09:30.641 --> 0:09:32.441 so I do struggle with the empathy stuff, and I'd 0:09:32.441 --> 0:09:33.841 love to come back to talk about that because I 0:09:33.881 --> 0:09:35.441 think I've got some stuff. 0:09:35.161 --> 0:09:35.761 To share there. 0:09:35.801 --> 0:09:38.921 But beyond all of that sort of personality stuff which 0:09:39.001 --> 0:09:42.601 is authentic, is also this sense in my whole life 0:09:42.641 --> 0:09:46.601 a natural shyness or something maybe a worry about what 0:09:46.641 --> 0:09:48.961 people are thinking about me. And obviously part of that 0:09:49.041 --> 0:09:51.561 drive is also look at me, look at me. So 0:09:51.641 --> 0:09:54.921 I think there's been times where that's come across as 0:09:55.321 --> 0:09:59.121 cockiness when it's not me being cocky. It's just me, 0:09:59.241 --> 0:10:02.481 as you say, being driven and pushing. And I think 0:10:02.481 --> 0:10:06.521 as you grow, being deliberate and learning how to when 0:10:06.561 --> 0:10:10.441 to employ the confidence thing, when to actually lean into 0:10:10.481 --> 0:10:13.361 that and when to come back and be more authentic 0:10:13.441 --> 0:10:17.841 and vulnerable is a constant challenge. But something that's really 0:10:17.881 --> 0:10:21.361 critical because cockiness can absolutely get in the way of 0:10:21.521 --> 0:10:25.281 all sorts of things, including being promoted in a modern workplace. 0:10:26.441 --> 0:10:27.441 Yeah right, interesting. 0:10:27.841 --> 0:10:30.801 So in those early days, then, what was your first 0:10:30.801 --> 0:10:33.361 moment where you felt really exposed, Because you mean, you 0:10:33.361 --> 0:10:35.041 probably would have had a bit of confidence in you, 0:10:35.041 --> 0:10:37.361 you know, this young reporter jumping at the planes and everything. 0:10:37.401 --> 0:10:39.001 When did something goes sort of a bit pear shape 0:10:39.001 --> 0:10:40.201 and you suddenly went, oh, god. 0:10:40.521 --> 0:10:43.721 That you never ever ever forget your first big mistake 0:10:43.801 --> 0:10:47.161 in journalism. Okay, and look, it wasn't a massively big 0:10:47.201 --> 0:10:49.401 mistake in the scheme of things, but I felt like 0:10:49.481 --> 0:10:52.001 it was the end of the world. Somebody had given 0:10:52.001 --> 0:10:55.441 me a tip of the location of the new office 0:10:55.481 --> 0:10:57.681 for the you know what was then the CJC, the 0:10:57.721 --> 0:11:01.081 Crime and Justice or whatever I was commissioned now the 0:11:01.401 --> 0:11:04.761 Triple C. And I basically took the story tips fact 0:11:04.761 --> 0:11:08.321 and wrote it ran that big which is, you know, 0:11:08.321 --> 0:11:10.801 three or four paragraphs on page you know, one hundred, 0:11:11.841 --> 0:11:14.561 and it was wrong. And the next day, obviously, you know, 0:11:14.601 --> 0:11:16.321 it turned out that it was just wrong and I 0:11:16.401 --> 0:11:19.441 just hadn't done the work, just hadn't checked. But I 0:11:19.521 --> 0:11:22.881 just felt like the world was crumbling around me, because 0:11:23.361 --> 0:11:25.681 you know you've made a mistake and you don't know 0:11:25.681 --> 0:11:28.441 at that time whether it's a consequence or not. You know, 0:11:28.521 --> 0:11:31.161 now as the editor, there's probably ten or eleven of 0:11:31.161 --> 0:11:32.921 them on any given week. You know, you just sort 0:11:32.921 --> 0:11:34.921 of work through not the exact thing, but you work 0:11:34.961 --> 0:11:37.681 through issues all the time. I just felt like, again, 0:11:37.721 --> 0:11:41.921 everyone was looking at me. Your world's collapsing. The chief 0:11:41.921 --> 0:11:44.401 of staff at that time was Paul Whittaker, who's now 0:11:44.441 --> 0:11:47.761 the chief executive of Sky News, and he's a classic 0:11:47.761 --> 0:11:49.961 will always be a great journalist no matter what he's doing. 0:11:50.761 --> 0:11:52.481 And he came over and he sat on my desk 0:11:53.401 --> 0:11:55.161 and he said, I can tell that you're hurting. And 0:11:55.761 --> 0:11:57.481 you know, you've got two ways to go from this. 0:11:57.521 --> 0:12:00.401 One you can let this consume you, or two, you 0:12:00.441 --> 0:12:05.961 can just learn from the mistake and just don't make 0:12:06.001 --> 0:12:08.201 that mistake again. What can you learn and just push 0:12:08.241 --> 0:12:09.281 forward with confidence. 0:12:10.241 --> 0:12:12.121 Newsrooms, particularly twenty five. 0:12:12.081 --> 0:12:16.401 Years ago, were not great places for leadership culture. But 0:12:16.441 --> 0:12:19.521 I think that was the first example or modeling of 0:12:19.641 --> 0:12:25.321 just really strong leadership. Yeah, take the time out, show 0:12:25.361 --> 0:12:29.761 the empathy, but be factual. Yeah, like call it out, 0:12:29.881 --> 0:12:33.361 give the feedback, but also give permission to get out 0:12:33.361 --> 0:12:35.481 of it. I'll never forget that, and I owe that 0:12:35.521 --> 0:12:36.841 sort of moment to Paul. 0:12:36.921 --> 0:12:38.281 There's a show, doesn't it like they could have been 0:12:38.321 --> 0:12:40.721 a very different interaction you had. How would you say 0:12:40.721 --> 0:12:42.601 that in general you are with self compassion, because it 0:12:42.601 --> 0:12:44.241 sounds like you probably beat yourself up a lot at 0:12:44.241 --> 0:12:44.601 that point. 0:12:44.681 --> 0:12:45.801 Fair enough, you're a young guy. 0:12:45.881 --> 0:12:48.961 You wanted to get ahead now when things happen, and 0:12:49.001 --> 0:12:51.921 now you've got tons more responsibility on your shoulders when 0:12:51.961 --> 0:12:52.841 things don't go to plan. 0:12:53.001 --> 0:12:53.921 Well has it in a critic? 0:12:54.481 --> 0:12:58.521 Yeah, pretty vocal. I don't like to stuff up. 0:12:58.561 --> 0:13:02.801 I certainly have many perfectionist traits, and I think you learn, 0:13:02.881 --> 0:13:05.121 don't you learn how to moderate over the years you 0:13:05.161 --> 0:13:07.921 get older, which I'm suddenly feeling. I actually try to 0:13:07.961 --> 0:13:10.161 lean into it a little bit. I do, genuinely try 0:13:10.201 --> 0:13:14.081 to lean into self awareness and particularly self reflection. And 0:13:14.081 --> 0:13:17.281 that's not exactly what you're asking, But I always always 0:13:17.321 --> 0:13:20.841 set aside time to reflect on most things. So a 0:13:20.881 --> 0:13:24.081 conversation in leadership, I'll always reflect on, you know, a 0:13:24.121 --> 0:13:28.321 mistake or yesterday's paper or yesterday's story, or that story 0:13:28.361 --> 0:13:31.161 we just published, or that slide deck I've just presented, 0:13:31.321 --> 0:13:33.561 or the presentation of that slide deck, or the presentation 0:13:33.601 --> 0:13:36.321 of that strategy, or the conversation I've had with my 0:13:36.361 --> 0:13:39.401 peers and all those moments. I always just try to 0:13:39.401 --> 0:13:41.561 take that thirty seconds or ninety seconds to sit and 0:13:41.601 --> 0:13:45.481 actually work through it, probably sending myself mad in the process, 0:13:45.641 --> 0:13:48.521 but try to be very deliberate about you know what 0:13:48.601 --> 0:13:49.561 am I learning from that? 0:13:49.641 --> 0:13:51.321 Yeah? I hate to make a mistake still. 0:13:51.161 --> 0:13:52.921 Well, I mean I think the industry you're in and 0:13:53.121 --> 0:13:55.041 the role you're in, like in comparison to lots of 0:13:55.081 --> 0:13:58.041 other roles, mistakes can be quite big and e quite amplified. 0:13:58.161 --> 0:13:59.561 Right, how do you relax if. 0:13:59.481 --> 0:14:01.041 You're not leaving work till nine o'clock and you're waking 0:14:01.081 --> 0:14:01.521 it too? With? 0:14:02.281 --> 0:14:04.721 Has this gone out? If we think about resilience in 0:14:04.761 --> 0:14:07.201 my you resilience as the obstacles are the path. You 0:14:07.241 --> 0:14:09.881 can't avoid the obstacles. They're coming, it's just what are 0:14:09.881 --> 0:14:11.721 you doing to prepare for them? So how do you 0:14:11.761 --> 0:14:14.721 set yourself up to live what could be quite a 0:14:14.801 --> 0:14:17.681 high adrenaline stressful life in terms of things could fire 0:14:17.681 --> 0:14:18.521 off at any stage? 0:14:18.841 --> 0:14:20.481 How do you keep yourself calm and how do you 0:14:20.561 --> 0:14:21.801 keeps it together. What are you doing? 0:14:22.001 --> 0:14:24.601 You just drink a lot, Emma, I'm just cut of 0:14:24.601 --> 0:14:25.641 that numbers. 0:14:26.561 --> 0:14:28.921 No, No, not the case. No, that actually makes it worse. 0:14:29.001 --> 0:14:30.641 So first point is I think you just have to 0:14:30.681 --> 0:14:33.361 assume it's going to consume your life. How do you relax? Well, 0:14:33.401 --> 0:14:36.481 I think it's just getting those coping mechanisms of just 0:14:36.601 --> 0:14:38.721 learning about having a head full of stuff and being 0:14:38.761 --> 0:14:42.081 able to just you know, compartmentalize at the end of 0:14:42.121 --> 0:14:43.481 the day and just know it's all going to be 0:14:43.521 --> 0:14:46.121 there tomorrow, which just sort of I think comes over 0:14:46.201 --> 0:14:50.041 time in terms of relaxing. I love anything around the water, boating, fishing, 0:14:50.241 --> 0:14:51.641 being at the beach, all that sort of stuff. 0:14:51.801 --> 0:14:52.401 Water is my. 0:14:53.881 --> 0:14:57.841 Yeah, okay, And if I can have a water experience 0:14:58.281 --> 0:15:01.641 in the diary knowing it's coming, the thought of that 0:15:01.761 --> 0:15:04.001 is quite comforting when things do get pretty full on 0:15:04.241 --> 0:15:07.361 The other advice I've had from my boss now, Michael Miller, 0:15:07.361 --> 0:15:11.281 who's the executive chairman, is every couple of weeks set 0:15:11.321 --> 0:15:14.961 aside some time to actually just id eight and think, yeah, 0:15:15.001 --> 0:15:18.561 so whether that's you know, alternate fridays, just work from 0:15:18.561 --> 0:15:21.481 home for the morning and don't actually put anything in 0:15:21.521 --> 0:15:24.401 your diary and just maybe make a list of things 0:15:24.441 --> 0:15:26.081 you want to think about and just actually spend the 0:15:26.121 --> 0:15:29.081 time thinking. And every morning I do try, I endeavor 0:15:29.201 --> 0:15:33.761 to just do a ten minute guided meditation. Do find 0:15:33.761 --> 0:15:36.161 that really does help ground and is ten minutes? I'm 0:15:36.201 --> 0:15:39.601 sure most people listening to this, No, it's often hard 0:15:39.601 --> 0:15:40.841 to find the ten minutes, isn't it? 0:15:40.841 --> 0:15:42.601 It's just thing, isn't it's eighten minutes? But yet it 0:15:42.601 --> 0:15:43.521 can be quite hard to find. 0:15:43.841 --> 0:15:44.441 Yeah. Interesting. 0:15:44.601 --> 0:15:46.521 So I'm super obsessed with mel Robins at the moment, 0:15:46.561 --> 0:15:48.361 a big fan of her current work that she's put 0:15:48.361 --> 0:15:50.881 out around to let them theory, and as somebody who 0:15:50.921 --> 0:15:52.961 probably hasn't done that very well in her life, like 0:15:53.041 --> 0:15:56.001 I can let people's opinions and thoughts affect me and 0:15:56.161 --> 0:15:58.561 gathering being in journalism, like you have to develop a 0:15:58.561 --> 0:16:00.801 thick skin, right because people have opinions on what you're 0:16:00.881 --> 0:16:03.161 right and so forth. Do you feel that it's been 0:16:03.161 --> 0:16:05.281 a case with you, Like, is your skin go really 0:16:05.361 --> 0:16:06.241 thick over the years? 0:16:06.441 --> 0:16:06.641 You know? 0:16:06.881 --> 0:16:09.121 Does it still bother you when people have opinions on you? 0:16:09.241 --> 0:16:11.201 Or does it not even affect you anymore? 0:16:11.681 --> 0:16:14.721 Okay, So as a journalist, never really felt it as 0:16:14.721 --> 0:16:17.201 a reporter, so I never really felt it, and that's 0:16:17.241 --> 0:16:19.761 because I was in the old school world of you know, 0:16:19.801 --> 0:16:23.281 we weren't the story. Yeah, you have to learn as 0:16:23.321 --> 0:16:25.641 an editor. I think in Hobart I learned it. I 0:16:25.641 --> 0:16:27.361 was there for two and a half years as the editor. 0:16:27.521 --> 0:16:28.881 And the. 0:16:30.481 --> 0:16:33.401 Love affair or that, the ownership and love that a 0:16:33.521 --> 0:16:38.601 community like Hobart two hundred thousand people have for their 0:16:38.761 --> 0:16:42.681 masterthead is extraordinary. They all feel like they have permission 0:16:42.801 --> 0:16:47.321 to criticize and so on, and often that becomes quite personal. 0:16:48.201 --> 0:16:52.201 So that was probably the steepest learning curve was just 0:16:52.361 --> 0:16:54.361 learning to deal with that. I think the way I 0:16:54.401 --> 0:16:56.721 get through it is to just go, well, am I 0:16:56.801 --> 0:17:00.521 confident in the position that we talk or you know 0:17:00.561 --> 0:17:03.041 the way we approach that? And if so, then the 0:17:03.081 --> 0:17:05.640 rest of it is just input and feedback can noise 0:17:06.321 --> 0:17:09.160 so it doesn't hurt people, doesn't mean it stopped hurting. 0:17:10.360 --> 0:17:12.880 Maybe that's the bark you know I've had. There was 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:16.880 a period there when during the pandemic, when bored Kevin Rudd. 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:17.761 We all know that. 0:17:17.921 --> 0:17:21.480 We all know that Kevin Rudd. There are many you know. 0:17:21.481 --> 0:17:24.801 It was tweeting to his However, many followers. I think 0:17:24.801 --> 0:17:28.000 he bought most of them, but the you know, that 0:17:28.041 --> 0:17:30.840 little little mob that he gathered in that era, you know, 0:17:30.961 --> 0:17:34.121 just personally calling me out. And you know, I think 0:17:34.120 --> 0:17:36.160 it was one one tweet. I do remember them. But 0:17:36.241 --> 0:17:38.920 one tweet was like, you know, there's rumors that, you know, 0:17:39.041 --> 0:17:41.920