1 00:00:05,881 --> 00:00:07,281 Speaker 1: Appod Shay Production. 2 00:00:10,721 --> 00:00:14,441 Speaker 2: Welcome to another episode of Brave Always the CEO series. 3 00:00:14,681 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 2: This series we launch into the new world of brave leadership. 4 00:00:18,601 --> 00:00:20,761 Speaker 3: Happy people create happy businesses. 5 00:00:20,561 --> 00:00:22,921 Speaker 1: True emotionally intelligent leadership. 6 00:00:22,961 --> 00:00:24,961 Speaker 2: I picked up vomit once on our about our four 7 00:00:25,041 --> 00:00:27,561 Speaker 2: flight and everybody thought, well, if it's good enough for him, 8 00:00:27,681 --> 00:00:28,401 Speaker 2: I can do it now. 9 00:00:28,481 --> 00:00:31,081 Speaker 1: We will be joined by culture and leadership. 10 00:00:30,641 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 2: Experts and some superstar CEOs who will courageously tell us 11 00:00:35,081 --> 00:00:37,601 Speaker 2: the truth behind their brave leadership journeys. 12 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:40,761 Speaker 1: I am delighted to have with me in studio. News 13 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:42,201 Speaker 1: Corp Australia's. 14 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,521 Speaker 2: Queensland editor and the editor of the Career Mail, mister 15 00:00:44,601 --> 00:00:48,321 Speaker 2: Chris Jones. Chris has had an impressive twenty one year 16 00:00:48,361 --> 00:00:50,721 Speaker 2: career with News Corps, spanning his early days as a 17 00:00:50,721 --> 00:00:53,441 Speaker 2: reporter to head of news and now finding it the 18 00:00:53,441 --> 00:00:55,721 Speaker 2: helm of one of the leading newspapers in the country. 19 00:00:56,081 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 2: He also co hosts Towards the Game's podcast with Lutzi, 20 00:00:59,401 --> 00:01:02,081 Speaker 2: where they explore the journey of Brisbane's transformation for the 21 00:01:02,121 --> 00:01:03,921 Speaker 2: twenty thirty two Olympic Games. 22 00:01:04,321 --> 00:01:04,961 Speaker 4: Welcome Chris. 23 00:01:05,721 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 3: I'm so happy to be here. Emma. 24 00:01:07,721 --> 00:01:10,961 Speaker 5: I think what you're doing is really impressive. You're giving 25 00:01:10,961 --> 00:01:14,161 Speaker 5: a permission to be vulnerable, particularly for male leaders I 26 00:01:14,161 --> 00:01:15,761 Speaker 5: think find it quite difficult. 27 00:01:15,881 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 4: Thank you. 28 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:18,681 Speaker 2: And you know, it's funny like over the last few years, 29 00:01:18,721 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 2: particularly with running my business, you know, I have the 30 00:01:21,121 --> 00:01:23,521 Speaker 2: pleasure of often working with a lot of executives and 31 00:01:23,601 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 2: CEOs in their field, and people will say to me 32 00:01:26,041 --> 00:01:28,641 Speaker 2: afterwards like we're they scary, Like it's like they're. 33 00:01:28,441 --> 00:01:29,361 Speaker 4: Just human beings. 34 00:01:29,441 --> 00:01:31,681 Speaker 2: Yeah, That's kind of what this is about, is that 35 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:34,161 Speaker 2: success doesn't mean that you don't have all of the 36 00:01:34,241 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 2: human emotions, and people can see that in a different way, 37 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,121 Speaker 2: and it's sort of sometimes I think will put people 38 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 2: off moving to the type or pushing themselves the top 39 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 2: or whether they can even get there because they're not 40 00:01:44,721 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 2: completely stoic and you know, they don't have these things. 41 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,081 Speaker 2: So it is kind of allowing people to see that 42 00:01:49,201 --> 00:01:51,321 Speaker 2: it's both sides of the coins you. 43 00:01:51,361 --> 00:01:53,641 Speaker 4: I appreciate that. How's a year started for you? 44 00:01:53,681 --> 00:01:56,841 Speaker 3: Good? Busy. It's always busy, but always exciting as well. 45 00:01:56,881 --> 00:01:59,361 Speaker 5: You know, we're coming up to a federal election, you know, 46 00:01:59,401 --> 00:02:01,361 Speaker 5: off the back of a state election with the change 47 00:02:01,361 --> 00:02:02,961 Speaker 5: of government and a lot of what we do as 48 00:02:03,041 --> 00:02:05,881 Speaker 5: politics yeah, it's courts and crime and and so on. 49 00:02:05,961 --> 00:02:10,041 Speaker 5: But I think what makes newspapering in the digital sense 50 00:02:10,121 --> 00:02:12,601 Speaker 5: these days as well as print, but newspapering different to 51 00:02:12,641 --> 00:02:15,601 Speaker 5: other media is the time that we spent thinking about 52 00:02:15,601 --> 00:02:18,441 Speaker 5: politics and so on, and the role that we play 53 00:02:19,161 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 5: in terms of meaning. That's probably the central point of 54 00:02:22,281 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 5: why journalism calls. 55 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:25,761 Speaker 3: People, is the ability to use. 56 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:29,281 Speaker 5: The platform to make a difference. You tend to do 57 00:02:29,321 --> 00:02:32,361 Speaker 5: that through politicians and the decisions that they make, and 58 00:02:32,561 --> 00:02:35,361 Speaker 5: leading them to that is really meaningful. So I always 59 00:02:35,361 --> 00:02:38,041 Speaker 5: start the year feeling relaxed after a big break, but 60 00:02:38,121 --> 00:02:40,321 Speaker 5: also excited about what's to come. You have a big break, 61 00:02:40,361 --> 00:02:43,041 Speaker 5: always do four weeks. I always do not much more 62 00:02:43,121 --> 00:02:46,321 Speaker 5: other than just sitting on my ass as much as possible, 63 00:02:46,401 --> 00:02:48,881 Speaker 5: Try not to travel too far, yep, and just do 64 00:02:48,921 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 5: a proper reset so you can come back fresh. 65 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 4: That's good, good ritual. 66 00:02:53,721 --> 00:02:56,281 Speaker 2: Now I'm guessing that journalists just have an amazing way 67 00:02:56,281 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 2: of ensuring that there's little information about them out there. 68 00:02:58,881 --> 00:03:01,241 Speaker 2: So congratulations, you've done a good job with that. The 69 00:03:01,321 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 2: least amount of things I could recently human being with you, 70 00:03:04,041 --> 00:03:05,681 Speaker 2: I couldn't even forget what we were born are you 71 00:03:05,721 --> 00:03:06,721 Speaker 2: born in Brisbane? 72 00:03:06,881 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 5: Well, I think part of that is I don't think 73 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:10,921 Speaker 5: we're very good at telling our own story, you. 74 00:03:10,841 --> 00:03:12,921 Speaker 1: Know, So it's because you know what you're like. 75 00:03:12,921 --> 00:03:14,281 Speaker 4: On the other end of the picture, I think. 76 00:03:14,201 --> 00:03:17,841 Speaker 5: It's because you spend your career telling other people's stories 77 00:03:17,841 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 5: and leaning into them. It's kind of yeah, you find 78 00:03:19,921 --> 00:03:22,961 Speaker 5: it quite confronting. So I was born in Melbourne but 79 00:03:23,721 --> 00:03:26,441 Speaker 5: grew up in Brisbone. One of the interesting things when 80 00:03:26,481 --> 00:03:29,361 Speaker 5: I think about my career and leadership journey and someone 81 00:03:29,481 --> 00:03:32,241 Speaker 5: is all I ever wanted to do was be the 82 00:03:32,361 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 5: editor of the Korean Mail. 83 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:35,201 Speaker 4: No you didn't, Are you serious? 84 00:03:35,361 --> 00:03:35,561 Speaker 3: Yeah? 85 00:03:35,601 --> 00:03:38,801 Speaker 5: Absolutely, So it's great to have achieved it. And I've 86 00:03:38,801 --> 00:03:41,361 Speaker 5: been in this gig for five years. And it's kind 87 00:03:41,401 --> 00:03:43,201 Speaker 5: of interesting as well, where you reach a point at 88 00:03:43,201 --> 00:03:46,281 Speaker 5: which you've hit your goal and you can do it 89 00:03:46,321 --> 00:03:48,161 Speaker 5: for a period of time. But I've got twenty or 90 00:03:48,161 --> 00:03:50,601 Speaker 5: thirty years still in the workplace, and I guarantee you 91 00:03:50,601 --> 00:03:52,201 Speaker 5: I won't be able to the corean male for twenty 92 00:03:52,321 --> 00:03:54,601 Speaker 5: or thirty years from now, So you know, it's a 93 00:03:54,601 --> 00:03:56,241 Speaker 5: bit of a crossroads moment as well. 94 00:03:56,121 --> 00:03:58,401 Speaker 4: I bet were you delivering newspapers as a young boy? 95 00:03:58,441 --> 00:03:59,121 Speaker 4: What was it about. 96 00:03:59,841 --> 00:04:02,641 Speaker 5: I just love journalism, and I do love newspapers as 97 00:04:02,721 --> 00:04:05,481 Speaker 5: much as you know. We're a digital subscription business now 98 00:04:05,521 --> 00:04:07,681 Speaker 5: that happens to do a newspaper, and the newspaper's still 99 00:04:07,761 --> 00:04:10,161 Speaker 5: really important and we still print a lot of them 100 00:04:10,201 --> 00:04:12,161 Speaker 5: every night light, but you know, the future is the 101 00:04:12,161 --> 00:04:15,241 Speaker 5: digital subscription business. But I just love There's something beautiful 102 00:04:15,281 --> 00:04:17,721 Speaker 5: about a newspaper and I've always been in love with it, 103 00:04:17,801 --> 00:04:19,801 Speaker 5: the romance of it. Like I said, I did put 104 00:04:19,801 --> 00:04:21,561 Speaker 5: out that little one in the street for a few 105 00:04:21,641 --> 00:04:24,241 Speaker 5: years in the end of primary school and loved that 106 00:04:24,401 --> 00:04:27,641 Speaker 5: and just always had a real affection for them. And 107 00:04:27,721 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 5: what it's growing into is a love of journalism and 108 00:04:31,001 --> 00:04:34,361 Speaker 5: as I say, the meaning behind great journalism and the 109 00:04:34,801 --> 00:04:38,321 Speaker 5: impact that you can have in telling, you know, the 110 00:04:38,361 --> 00:04:43,401 Speaker 5: stories of everyday heroes or sporting heroes, or indeed driving 111 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 5: significant change. 112 00:04:45,601 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 2: I mean, obviously this there's a lot about the passion 113 00:04:47,561 --> 00:04:50,161 Speaker 2: you have for this. The purpose of being in this 114 00:04:50,201 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 2: field is to make change for good. It sounds like 115 00:04:52,561 --> 00:04:53,721 Speaker 2: wherever you possibly. 116 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,161 Speaker 5: Can, I think journalism absolutely is a calling. Yeah, there 117 00:04:57,201 --> 00:04:59,241 Speaker 5: was a period there where every English teacher told their 118 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,841 Speaker 5: kids who were good at English to choose journalism. Some 119 00:05:04,001 --> 00:05:05,961 Speaker 5: of the best journalists in the world world can't string 120 00:05:05,961 --> 00:05:06,801 Speaker 5: a sentence together. 121 00:05:07,001 --> 00:05:08,281 Speaker 3: Yeah, but they know what. 122 00:05:08,241 --> 00:05:10,561 Speaker 5: A great story is, that you have the right motivation, 123 00:05:11,241 --> 00:05:13,361 Speaker 5: and they know how to put those things together tocue 124 00:05:13,401 --> 00:05:17,201 Speaker 5: great outcomes. And the way you motivate a team of 125 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:23,281 Speaker 5: journalists is not to give them rewards or clap their 126 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,961 Speaker 5: paid cynics. So the traditional workplace Friday afternoon stuff makes 127 00:05:27,001 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 5: them feel awkward. 128 00:05:28,361 --> 00:05:30,481 Speaker 3: The way that you motivate. 129 00:05:30,081 --> 00:05:33,361 Speaker 5: A team of journalists is really just back their stories, 130 00:05:33,801 --> 00:05:36,361 Speaker 5: back in what they want to tell and the change 131 00:05:36,401 --> 00:05:38,721 Speaker 5: that they want to make. I'd be very surprised if 132 00:05:38,761 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 5: there's many successful journalists who wouldn't just consider it a 133 00:05:42,241 --> 00:05:45,161 Speaker 5: total calling rather than a job that you turn up 134 00:05:45,161 --> 00:05:45,641 Speaker 5: to and do. 135 00:05:45,681 --> 00:05:46,721 Speaker 3: For eight hours a day. 136 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,321 Speaker 2: So then on the flip side, given this is to 137 00:05:49,401 --> 00:05:52,561 Speaker 2: purpose driven thing for yourself and for most journalists, probably 138 00:05:53,001 --> 00:05:54,841 Speaker 2: when you're in the reporting space, and let's say in 139 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:58,361 Speaker 2: particular talking in politics right where sometimes sometimes a lot 140 00:05:58,401 --> 00:06:01,121 Speaker 2: of what said is to be popular, is it conflicting 141 00:06:01,161 --> 00:06:02,961 Speaker 2: for you? Then when you see people not using that 142 00:06:03,041 --> 00:06:04,001 Speaker 2: platform for good. 143 00:06:04,201 --> 00:06:07,001 Speaker 5: I think one of the the challenges that the industry 144 00:06:07,041 --> 00:06:11,121 Speaker 5: has had over the past fifteen twenty years is the 145 00:06:11,241 --> 00:06:15,841 Speaker 5: rise of a celebrity journalist. I think journalists are best 146 00:06:16,081 --> 00:06:21,761 Speaker 5: when they're not the story, but absolutely in the middle 147 00:06:21,801 --> 00:06:26,041 Speaker 5: of it, so that they can provide the behind the scenes, 148 00:06:26,641 --> 00:06:32,081 Speaker 5: genuinely informed analysis and commentary. Analysis is better than commentary 149 00:06:32,201 --> 00:06:36,281 Speaker 5: if you're a journalist to then allow the readers into 150 00:06:37,001 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 5: those I suppose sacred spaces that readers would never actually 151 00:06:40,761 --> 00:06:43,361 Speaker 5: get access to it. The great thing about covering politics 152 00:06:43,521 --> 00:06:45,921 Speaker 5: is that you do get access to those things. The 153 00:06:45,961 --> 00:06:48,481 Speaker 5: greatest other than obviously being the end of the Curry Mail, 154 00:06:48,561 --> 00:06:50,081 Speaker 5: the greatest time in my life was when I was 155 00:06:50,081 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 5: in the Press Gallery in Canberra in two thousand and three, 156 00:06:53,401 --> 00:06:56,281 Speaker 5: in two thousand and four, and just the way you 157 00:06:56,401 --> 00:07:01,521 Speaker 5: just witness history in those halls, you're part of significant moments. 158 00:07:01,681 --> 00:07:03,841 Speaker 5: Bringing the readers into that is actually part of the 159 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 5: job of a great journalist, but never actually turning the 160 00:07:07,161 --> 00:07:08,361 Speaker 5: camera onto yourself. 161 00:07:08,681 --> 00:07:10,921 Speaker 2: Does it worry that if you ever changed career pass 162 00:07:10,921 --> 00:07:12,721 Speaker 2: that you'd ever find the same adorenaline that you get 163 00:07:12,761 --> 00:07:13,001 Speaker 2: from this. 164 00:07:13,841 --> 00:07:15,961 Speaker 3: I'm not sure I could ever not be a journalist. 165 00:07:17,481 --> 00:07:18,601 Speaker 4: Yeah, fair enough, fair enough. 166 00:07:18,961 --> 00:07:21,721 Speaker 2: Going back to when you first started your career, I 167 00:07:21,721 --> 00:07:23,561 Speaker 2: did really comment that you said, I think you were 168 00:07:23,601 --> 00:07:25,041 Speaker 2: a reporter for the Weekly Outdoors. 169 00:07:25,121 --> 00:07:26,601 Speaker 1: I think that's what your first role was. 170 00:07:26,881 --> 00:07:28,681 Speaker 5: Look, I won the lottery early in life. 171 00:07:29,881 --> 00:07:31,481 Speaker 3: I was at UNI. I was second year UNI. 172 00:07:31,521 --> 00:07:33,481 Speaker 5: I met the great Dennis Watt, now the chair of 173 00:07:33,561 --> 00:07:36,281 Speaker 5: the Goldcast Titans, one of the greatest journalists ever. He 174 00:07:36,441 --> 00:07:39,281 Speaker 5: was chief of staff I think at the time. And 175 00:07:39,321 --> 00:07:42,601 Speaker 5: I met him in a journalism student Association function and 176 00:07:42,681 --> 00:07:45,161 Speaker 5: he said, with all this stuff you've done, I've done 177 00:07:45,161 --> 00:07:47,521 Speaker 5: a bit of boating and fishing sort of magazine worked 178 00:07:47,561 --> 00:07:49,841 Speaker 5: just as a part time gig to get me through UNI. 179 00:07:49,921 --> 00:07:51,921 Speaker 5: He said, you really should be putting your name up 180 00:07:51,961 --> 00:07:53,881 Speaker 5: to Chris Mitchell, who was the edder at the time. 181 00:07:54,641 --> 00:07:57,121 Speaker 5: So I sent off package Popoli. I sent it off 182 00:07:57,201 --> 00:07:59,641 Speaker 5: and I didn't hear anything for a couple of months. 183 00:07:59,841 --> 00:08:01,641 Speaker 5: Now it's a phone call from Chris Mitchell's the AA 184 00:08:01,881 --> 00:08:05,001 Speaker 5: saying come in on this date next Monday or whatever. 185 00:08:05,081 --> 00:08:06,441 Speaker 5: So I went and bought a tie and did all 186 00:08:06,441 --> 00:08:07,921 Speaker 5: that sort of stuff that you do when you're young 187 00:08:08,041 --> 00:08:11,401 Speaker 5: and going for your first job interview. I sat down 188 00:08:11,441 --> 00:08:13,081 Speaker 5: and Chris basically said I love what you've done. 189 00:08:13,081 --> 00:08:13,201 Speaker 3: Here. 190 00:08:13,241 --> 00:08:17,401 Speaker 5: We're starting a weekly week end well outdoors. It was 191 00:08:17,401 --> 00:08:21,081 Speaker 5: called outdoors supplement. Yeah, on a Friday, I'd love you 192 00:08:21,161 --> 00:08:23,161 Speaker 5: to come in and be the reporter for that. So 193 00:08:23,241 --> 00:08:26,721 Speaker 5: the first maybe twelve months of my career was literally 194 00:08:26,841 --> 00:08:29,401 Speaker 5: jumping out of planes and riding around in boats and 195 00:08:29,441 --> 00:08:32,481 Speaker 5: calling it journalism. It was the weecked and I did 196 00:08:32,481 --> 00:08:35,321 Speaker 5: my best to hide myself over in the corner. But 197 00:08:35,881 --> 00:08:37,961 Speaker 5: it only lasted a year or so before you know, 198 00:08:38,081 --> 00:08:39,841 Speaker 5: the rest of the room figured out all the chief 199 00:08:39,841 --> 00:08:43,041 Speaker 5: of staff who wasn't Don figured out that I was there, 200 00:08:43,441 --> 00:08:45,121 Speaker 5: and obviously I had a bit of talent, and they 201 00:08:45,161 --> 00:08:47,121 Speaker 5: brought me into the news world and off we went. 202 00:08:47,201 --> 00:08:48,001 Speaker 5: That was a great year. 203 00:08:48,161 --> 00:08:48,481 Speaker 1: Yeah. 204 00:08:48,521 --> 00:08:50,281 Speaker 2: So I mean, I'm getting this sense that you're the 205 00:08:50,361 --> 00:08:52,161 Speaker 2: kind of person when you sit your mind to something, 206 00:08:52,321 --> 00:08:54,161 Speaker 2: you just go for it. Is that true? Or does 207 00:08:54,161 --> 00:08:55,601 Speaker 2: a lot of fear and doubt come into play? Is 208 00:08:55,641 --> 00:08:57,161 Speaker 2: that sort of a front or in the background, and 209 00:08:57,161 --> 00:08:59,001 Speaker 2: you thinking can I do this? Like I'm not even 210 00:08:59,041 --> 00:09:01,001 Speaker 2: finished my degree here, I'm just going to leap in 211 00:09:01,041 --> 00:09:01,441 Speaker 2: and do this. 212 00:09:01,881 --> 00:09:04,041 Speaker 3: I think self awareness is so important in leadership. So 213 00:09:04,041 --> 00:09:05,041 Speaker 3: I've spent a lot of time doing it. 214 00:09:05,881 --> 00:09:09,961 Speaker 5: My natural work persona, which is not inauthentic to home, 215 00:09:10,121 --> 00:09:12,641 Speaker 5: you know, is a classic Myers Briggsy and TJ. 216 00:09:12,921 --> 00:09:14,081 Speaker 3: You know, it's the full. 217 00:09:13,961 --> 00:09:18,281 Speaker 5: Napoleon Steve Jobs commander type. Okay, if you're more of 218 00:09:18,281 --> 00:09:22,641 Speaker 5: a fan of the HBDI, I'm everything in equal measure 219 00:09:22,801 --> 00:09:26,041 Speaker 5: other than the red quadrant, the WHO stuff. So I'm 220 00:09:26,041 --> 00:09:30,001 Speaker 5: all about the what, how, why rather than the Who. Naturally, 221 00:09:30,641 --> 00:09:32,441 Speaker 5: so I do struggle with the empathy stuff, and I'd 222 00:09:32,441 --> 00:09:33,841 Speaker 5: love to come back to talk about that because I 223 00:09:33,881 --> 00:09:35,441 Speaker 5: think I've got some stuff. 224 00:09:35,161 --> 00:09:35,761 Speaker 3: To share there. 225 00:09:35,801 --> 00:09:38,921 Speaker 5: But beyond all of that sort of personality stuff which 226 00:09:39,001 --> 00:09:42,601 Speaker 5: is authentic, is also this sense in my whole life 227 00:09:42,641 --> 00:09:46,601 Speaker 5: a natural shyness or something maybe a worry about what 228 00:09:46,641 --> 00:09:48,961 Speaker 5: people are thinking about me. And obviously part of that 229 00:09:49,041 --> 00:09:51,561 Speaker 5: drive is also look at me, look at me. So 230 00:09:51,641 --> 00:09:54,921 Speaker 5: I think there's been times where that's come across as 231 00:09:55,321 --> 00:09:59,121 Speaker 5: cockiness when it's not me being cocky. It's just me, 232 00:09:59,241 --> 00:10:02,481 Speaker 5: as you say, being driven and pushing. And I think 233 00:10:02,481 --> 00:10:06,521 Speaker 5: as you grow, being deliberate and learning how to when 234 00:10:06,561 --> 00:10:10,441 Speaker 5: to employ the confidence thing, when to actually lean into 235 00:10:10,481 --> 00:10:13,361 Speaker 5: that and when to come back and be more authentic 236 00:10:13,441 --> 00:10:17,841 Speaker 5: and vulnerable is a constant challenge. But something that's really 237 00:10:17,881 --> 00:10:21,361 Speaker 5: critical because cockiness can absolutely get in the way of 238 00:10:21,521 --> 00:10:25,281 Speaker 5: all sorts of things, including being promoted in a modern workplace. 239 00:10:26,441 --> 00:10:27,441 Speaker 4: Yeah right, interesting. 240 00:10:27,841 --> 00:10:30,801 Speaker 2: So in those early days, then, what was your first 241 00:10:30,801 --> 00:10:33,361 Speaker 2: moment where you felt really exposed, Because you mean, you 242 00:10:33,361 --> 00:10:35,041 Speaker 2: probably would have had a bit of confidence in you, 243 00:10:35,041 --> 00:10:37,361 Speaker 2: you know, this young reporter jumping at the planes and everything. 244 00:10:37,401 --> 00:10:39,001 Speaker 2: When did something goes sort of a bit pear shape 245 00:10:39,001 --> 00:10:40,201 Speaker 2: and you suddenly went, oh, god. 246 00:10:40,521 --> 00:10:43,721 Speaker 5: That you never ever ever forget your first big mistake 247 00:10:43,801 --> 00:10:47,161 Speaker 5: in journalism. Okay, and look, it wasn't a massively big 248 00:10:47,201 --> 00:10:49,401 Speaker 5: mistake in the scheme of things, but I felt like 249 00:10:49,481 --> 00:10:52,001 Speaker 5: it was the end of the world. Somebody had given 250 00:10:52,001 --> 00:10:55,441 Speaker 5: me a tip of the location of the new office 251 00:10:55,481 --> 00:10:57,681 Speaker 5: for the you know what was then the CJC, the 252 00:10:57,721 --> 00:11:01,081 Speaker 5: Crime and Justice or whatever I was commissioned now the 253 00:11:01,401 --> 00:11:04,761 Speaker 5: Triple C. And I basically took the story tips fact 254 00:11:04,761 --> 00:11:08,321 Speaker 5: and wrote it ran that big which is, you know, 255 00:11:08,321 --> 00:11:10,801 Speaker 5: three or four paragraphs on page you know, one hundred, 256 00:11:11,841 --> 00:11:14,561 Speaker 5: and it was wrong. And the next day, obviously, you know, 257 00:11:14,601 --> 00:11:16,321 Speaker 5: it turned out that it was just wrong and I 258 00:11:16,401 --> 00:11:19,441 Speaker 5: just hadn't done the work, just hadn't checked. But I 259 00:11:19,521 --> 00:11:22,881 Speaker 5: just felt like the world was crumbling around me, because 260 00:11:23,361 --> 00:11:25,681 Speaker 5: you know you've made a mistake and you don't know 261 00:11:25,681 --> 00:11:28,441 Speaker 5: at that time whether it's a consequence or not. You know, 262 00:11:28,521 --> 00:11:31,161 Speaker 5: now as the editor, there's probably ten or eleven of 263 00:11:31,161 --> 00:11:32,921 Speaker 5: them on any given week. You know, you just sort 264 00:11:32,921 --> 00:11:34,921 Speaker 5: of work through not the exact thing, but you work 265 00:11:34,961 --> 00:11:37,681 Speaker 5: through issues all the time. I just felt like, again, 266 00:11:37,721 --> 00:11:41,921 Speaker 5: everyone was looking at me. Your world's collapsing. The chief 267 00:11:41,921 --> 00:11:44,401 Speaker 5: of staff at that time was Paul Whittaker, who's now 268 00:11:44,441 --> 00:11:47,761 Speaker 5: the chief executive of Sky News, and he's a classic 269 00:11:47,761 --> 00:11:49,961 Speaker 5: will always be a great journalist no matter what he's doing. 270 00:11:50,761 --> 00:11:52,481 Speaker 5: And he came over and he sat on my desk 271 00:11:53,401 --> 00:11:55,161 Speaker 5: and he said, I can tell that you're hurting. And 272 00:11:55,761 --> 00:11:57,481 Speaker 5: you know, you've got two ways to go from this. 273 00:11:57,521 --> 00:12:00,401 Speaker 5: One you can let this consume you, or two, you 274 00:12:00,441 --> 00:12:05,961 Speaker 5: can just learn from the mistake and just don't make 275 00:12:06,001 --> 00:12:08,201 Speaker 5: that mistake again. What can you learn and just push 276 00:12:08,241 --> 00:12:09,281 Speaker 5: forward with confidence. 277 00:12:10,241 --> 00:12:12,121 Speaker 3: Newsrooms, particularly twenty five. 278 00:12:12,081 --> 00:12:16,401 Speaker 5: Years ago, were not great places for leadership culture. But 279 00:12:16,441 --> 00:12:19,521 Speaker 5: I think that was the first example or modeling of 280 00:12:19,641 --> 00:12:25,321 Speaker 5: just really strong leadership. Yeah, take the time out, show 281 00:12:25,361 --> 00:12:29,761 Speaker 5: the empathy, but be factual. Yeah, like call it out, 282 00:12:29,881 --> 00:12:33,361 Speaker 5: give the feedback, but also give permission to get out 283 00:12:33,361 --> 00:12:35,481 Speaker 5: of it. I'll never forget that, and I owe that 284 00:12:35,521 --> 00:12:36,841 Speaker 5: sort of moment to Paul. 285 00:12:36,921 --> 00:12:38,281 Speaker 2: There's a show, doesn't it like they could have been 286 00:12:38,321 --> 00:12:40,721 Speaker 2: a very different interaction you had. How would you say 287 00:12:40,721 --> 00:12:42,601 Speaker 2: that in general you are with self compassion, because it 288 00:12:42,601 --> 00:12:44,241 Speaker 2: sounds like you probably beat yourself up a lot at 289 00:12:44,241 --> 00:12:44,601 Speaker 2: that point. 290 00:12:44,681 --> 00:12:45,801 Speaker 4: Fair enough, you're a young guy. 291 00:12:45,881 --> 00:12:48,961 Speaker 2: You wanted to get ahead now when things happen, and 292 00:12:49,001 --> 00:12:51,921 Speaker 2: now you've got tons more responsibility on your shoulders when 293 00:12:51,961 --> 00:12:52,841 Speaker 2: things don't go to plan. 294 00:12:53,001 --> 00:12:53,921 Speaker 4: Well has it in a critic? 295 00:12:54,481 --> 00:12:58,521 Speaker 3: Yeah, pretty vocal. I don't like to stuff up. 296 00:12:58,561 --> 00:13:02,801 Speaker 5: I certainly have many perfectionist traits, and I think you learn, 297 00:13:02,881 --> 00:13:05,121 Speaker 5: don't you learn how to moderate over the years you 298 00:13:05,161 --> 00:13:07,921 Speaker 5: get older, which I'm suddenly feeling. I actually try to 299 00:13:07,961 --> 00:13:10,161 Speaker 5: lean into it a little bit. I do, genuinely try 300 00:13:10,201 --> 00:13:14,081 Speaker 5: to lean into self awareness and particularly self reflection. And 301 00:13:14,081 --> 00:13:17,281 Speaker 5: that's not exactly what you're asking, But I always always 302 00:13:17,321 --> 00:13:20,841 Speaker 5: set aside time to reflect on most things. So a 303 00:13:20,881 --> 00:13:24,081 Speaker 5: conversation in leadership, I'll always reflect on, you know, a 304 00:13:24,121 --> 00:13:28,321 Speaker 5: mistake or yesterday's paper or yesterday's story, or that story 305 00:13:28,361 --> 00:13:31,161 Speaker 5: we just published, or that slide deck I've just presented, 306 00:13:31,321 --> 00:13:33,561 Speaker 5: or the presentation of that slide deck, or the presentation 307 00:13:33,601 --> 00:13:36,321 Speaker 5: of that strategy, or the conversation I've had with my 308 00:13:36,361 --> 00:13:39,401 Speaker 5: peers and all those moments. I always just try to 309 00:13:39,401 --> 00:13:41,561 Speaker 5: take that thirty seconds or ninety seconds to sit and 310 00:13:41,601 --> 00:13:45,481 Speaker 5: actually work through it, probably sending myself mad in the process, 311 00:13:45,641 --> 00:13:48,521 Speaker 5: but try to be very deliberate about you know what 312 00:13:48,601 --> 00:13:49,561 Speaker 5: am I learning from that? 313 00:13:49,641 --> 00:13:51,321 Speaker 3: Yeah? I hate to make a mistake still. 314 00:13:51,161 --> 00:13:52,921 Speaker 2: Well, I mean I think the industry you're in and 315 00:13:53,121 --> 00:13:55,041 Speaker 2: the role you're in, like in comparison to lots of 316 00:13:55,081 --> 00:13:58,041 Speaker 2: other roles, mistakes can be quite big and e quite amplified. 317 00:13:58,161 --> 00:13:59,561 Speaker 4: Right, how do you relax if. 318 00:13:59,481 --> 00:14:01,041 Speaker 1: You're not leaving work till nine o'clock and you're waking 319 00:14:01,081 --> 00:14:01,521 Speaker 1: it too? With? 320 00:14:02,281 --> 00:14:04,721 Speaker 2: Has this gone out? If we think about resilience in 321 00:14:04,761 --> 00:14:07,201 Speaker 2: my you resilience as the obstacles are the path. You 322 00:14:07,241 --> 00:14:09,881 Speaker 2: can't avoid the obstacles. They're coming, it's just what are 323 00:14:09,881 --> 00:14:11,721 Speaker 2: you doing to prepare for them? So how do you 324 00:14:11,761 --> 00:14:14,721 Speaker 2: set yourself up to live what could be quite a 325 00:14:14,801 --> 00:14:17,681 Speaker 2: high adrenaline stressful life in terms of things could fire 326 00:14:17,681 --> 00:14:18,521 Speaker 2: off at any stage? 327 00:14:18,841 --> 00:14:20,481 Speaker 1: How do you keep yourself calm and how do you 328 00:14:20,561 --> 00:14:21,801 Speaker 1: keeps it together. What are you doing? 329 00:14:22,001 --> 00:14:24,601 Speaker 3: You just drink a lot, Emma, I'm just cut of 330 00:14:24,601 --> 00:14:25,641 Speaker 3: that numbers. 331 00:14:26,561 --> 00:14:28,921 Speaker 5: No, No, not the case. No, that actually makes it worse. 332 00:14:29,001 --> 00:14:30,641 Speaker 5: So first point is I think you just have to 333 00:14:30,681 --> 00:14:33,361 Speaker 5: assume it's going to consume your life. How do you relax? Well, 334 00:14:33,401 --> 00:14:36,481 Speaker 5: I think it's just getting those coping mechanisms of just 335 00:14:36,601 --> 00:14:38,721 Speaker 5: learning about having a head full of stuff and being 336 00:14:38,761 --> 00:14:42,081 Speaker 5: able to just you know, compartmentalize at the end of 337 00:14:42,121 --> 00:14:43,481 Speaker 5: the day and just know it's all going to be 338 00:14:43,521 --> 00:14:46,121 Speaker 5: there tomorrow, which just sort of I think comes over 339 00:14:46,201 --> 00:14:50,041 Speaker 5: time in terms of relaxing. I love anything around the water, boating, fishing, 340 00:14:50,241 --> 00:14:51,641 Speaker 5: being at the beach, all that sort of stuff. 341 00:14:51,801 --> 00:14:52,401 Speaker 3: Water is my. 342 00:14:53,881 --> 00:14:57,841 Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, And if I can have a water experience 343 00:14:58,281 --> 00:15:01,641 Speaker 5: in the diary knowing it's coming, the thought of that 344 00:15:01,761 --> 00:15:04,001 Speaker 5: is quite comforting when things do get pretty full on 345 00:15:04,241 --> 00:15:07,361 Speaker 5: The other advice I've had from my boss now, Michael Miller, 346 00:15:07,361 --> 00:15:11,281 Speaker 5: who's the executive chairman, is every couple of weeks set 347 00:15:11,321 --> 00:15:14,961 Speaker 5: aside some time to actually just id eight and think, yeah, 348 00:15:15,001 --> 00:15:18,561 Speaker 5: so whether that's you know, alternate fridays, just work from 349 00:15:18,561 --> 00:15:21,481 Speaker 5: home for the morning and don't actually put anything in 350 00:15:21,521 --> 00:15:24,401 Speaker 5: your diary and just maybe make a list of things 351 00:15:24,441 --> 00:15:26,081 Speaker 5: you want to think about and just actually spend the 352 00:15:26,121 --> 00:15:29,081 Speaker 5: time thinking. And every morning I do try, I endeavor 353 00:15:29,201 --> 00:15:33,761 Speaker 5: to just do a ten minute guided meditation. Do find 354 00:15:33,761 --> 00:15:36,161 Speaker 5: that really does help ground and is ten minutes? I'm 355 00:15:36,201 --> 00:15:39,601 Speaker 5: sure most people listening to this, No, it's often hard 356 00:15:39,601 --> 00:15:40,841 Speaker 5: to find the ten minutes, isn't it? 357 00:15:40,841 --> 00:15:42,601 Speaker 1: It's just thing, isn't it's eighten minutes? But yet it 358 00:15:42,601 --> 00:15:43,521 Speaker 1: can be quite hard to find. 359 00:15:43,841 --> 00:15:44,441 Speaker 4: Yeah. Interesting. 360 00:15:44,601 --> 00:15:46,521 Speaker 2: So I'm super obsessed with mel Robins at the moment, 361 00:15:46,561 --> 00:15:48,361 Speaker 2: a big fan of her current work that she's put 362 00:15:48,361 --> 00:15:50,881 Speaker 2: out around to let them theory, and as somebody who 363 00:15:50,921 --> 00:15:52,961 Speaker 2: probably hasn't done that very well in her life, like 364 00:15:53,041 --> 00:15:56,001 Speaker 2: I can let people's opinions and thoughts affect me and 365 00:15:56,161 --> 00:15:58,561 Speaker 2: gathering being in journalism, like you have to develop a 366 00:15:58,561 --> 00:16:00,801 Speaker 2: thick skin, right because people have opinions on what you're 367 00:16:00,881 --> 00:16:03,161 Speaker 2: right and so forth. Do you feel that it's been 368 00:16:03,161 --> 00:16:05,281 Speaker 2: a case with you, Like, is your skin go really 369 00:16:05,361 --> 00:16:06,241 Speaker 2: thick over the years? 370 00:16:06,441 --> 00:16:06,641 Speaker 1: You know? 371 00:16:06,881 --> 00:16:09,121 Speaker 2: Does it still bother you when people have opinions on you? 372 00:16:09,241 --> 00:16:11,201 Speaker 2: Or does it not even affect you anymore? 373 00:16:11,681 --> 00:16:14,721 Speaker 5: Okay, So as a journalist, never really felt it as 374 00:16:14,721 --> 00:16:17,201 Speaker 5: a reporter, so I never really felt it, and that's 375 00:16:17,241 --> 00:16:19,761 Speaker 5: because I was in the old school world of you know, 376 00:16:19,801 --> 00:16:23,281 Speaker 5: we weren't the story. Yeah, you have to learn as 377 00:16:23,321 --> 00:16:25,641 Speaker 5: an editor. I think in Hobart I learned it. I 378 00:16:25,641 --> 00:16:27,361 Speaker 5: was there for two and a half years as the editor. 379 00:16:27,521 --> 00:16:28,881 Speaker 3: And the. 380 00:16:30,481 --> 00:16:33,401 Speaker 5: Love affair or that, the ownership and love that a 381 00:16:33,521 --> 00:16:38,601 Speaker 5: community like Hobart two hundred thousand people have for their 382 00:16:38,761 --> 00:16:42,681 Speaker 5: masterthead is extraordinary. They all feel like they have permission 383 00:16:42,801 --> 00:16:47,321 Speaker 5: to criticize and so on, and often that becomes quite personal. 384 00:16:48,201 --> 00:16:52,201 Speaker 5: So that was probably the steepest learning curve was just 385 00:16:52,361 --> 00:16:54,361 Speaker 5: learning to deal with that. I think the way I 386 00:16:54,401 --> 00:16:56,721 Speaker 5: get through it is to just go, well, am I 387 00:16:56,801 --> 00:17:00,521 Speaker 5: confident in the position that we talk or you know 388 00:17:00,561 --> 00:17:03,041 Speaker 5: the way we approach that? And if so, then the 389 00:17:03,081 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 5: rest of it is just input and feedback can noise 390 00:17:06,321 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 5: so it doesn't hurt people, doesn't mean it stopped hurting. 391 00:17:10,360 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 5: Maybe that's the bark you know I've had. There was 392 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 5: a period there when during the pandemic, when bored Kevin Rudd. 393 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:17,761 Speaker 3: We all know that. 394 00:17:17,921 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 5: We all know that Kevin Rudd. There are many you know. 395 00:17:21,481 --> 00:17:24,801 Speaker 5: It was tweeting to his However, many followers. I think 396 00:17:24,801 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 5: he bought most of them, but the you know, that 397 00:17:28,041 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 5: little little mob that he gathered in that era, you know, 398 00:17:30,961 --> 00:17:34,121 Speaker 5: just personally calling me out. And you know, I think 399 00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:36,160 Speaker 5: it was one one tweet. I do remember them. But 400 00:17:36,241 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 5: one tweet was like, you know, there's rumors that, you know, 401 00:17:39,041 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 5: Chris Jones's job is in jeopardy because of you know, 402 00:17:42,001 --> 00:17:47,241 Speaker 5: some perceived political slight you know, Kevin and Malcolm of 403 00:17:47,281 --> 00:17:49,561 Speaker 5: the Classic they forget it was all good when, you know, 404 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:54,121 Speaker 5: when they were being supported by our company and the editorials, 405 00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:56,681 Speaker 5: and they forget that and they focus on the other 406 00:17:56,721 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 5: stuff since when we're calling out their madness. But anyway, 407 00:18:00,321 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 5: and and you know, you feel, you know, I wasn't 408 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,721 Speaker 5: worried about my job, but you fear it because you're 409 00:18:05,721 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 5: being sort of exposed. You know, you didn't choose public 410 00:18:08,041 --> 00:18:09,281 Speaker 5: life like the politicians. 411 00:18:09,281 --> 00:18:11,521 Speaker 3: I think you're a fair game. But I think that's 412 00:18:11,521 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 3: probably part of it as well. 413 00:18:12,561 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 5: I think you just have to accept that as the editor, 414 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:16,761 Speaker 5: you have chosen a bit of a public role, even 415 00:18:16,761 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 5: though it's not that customer facing always. And also, you know, 416 00:18:21,241 --> 00:18:23,161 Speaker 5: if you're kind of giving it, you might as well 417 00:18:23,241 --> 00:18:26,561 Speaker 5: you should probably be up for getting a little bit back, and. 418 00:18:26,521 --> 00:18:27,521 Speaker 4: Again that's fine. 419 00:18:27,561 --> 00:18:29,321 Speaker 2: I just I remember when Virgin, when I was back 420 00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:31,360 Speaker 2: at Virgin and we went through administration. 421 00:18:31,041 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 1: There's the cartoon slating of our leader at the time. 422 00:18:34,041 --> 00:18:37,601 Speaker 3: Paul and great great got two. Pool's a good guy, isn't. 423 00:18:37,441 --> 00:18:38,041 Speaker 4: He's a great guy. 424 00:18:38,201 --> 00:18:40,561 Speaker 2: Very privileged to work for him for that period, and 425 00:18:40,561 --> 00:18:43,721 Speaker 2: and I just I remember feeling so much for him, 426 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:45,921 Speaker 2: like because I knew him as a person as out 427 00:18:46,001 --> 00:18:46,880 Speaker 2: you know, I worked for him. 428 00:18:46,961 --> 00:18:48,041 Speaker 4: It was a great human being. 429 00:18:48,041 --> 00:18:50,201 Speaker 2: And he was slated a lot of the time, and 430 00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:52,281 Speaker 2: I just thought, God, that's got to do something to people. 431 00:18:52,321 --> 00:18:54,401 Speaker 2: And and I know, and he's pretty transparent. Actually, he's 432 00:18:54,441 --> 00:18:56,161 Speaker 2: quite a vulnerable leader to be able to say, yeah, 433 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 2: it really hurt. And I think it's important to know 434 00:18:59,321 --> 00:19:01,201 Speaker 2: that even though people have got thick skin like it's 435 00:19:01,281 --> 00:19:03,041 Speaker 2: it's still a lot. It's a it's a tough thing 436 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 2: to go through. If you then look at the the 437 00:19:05,201 --> 00:19:08,321 Speaker 2: other side sort of with authenticity, is it easy. 438 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:09,721 Speaker 4: To be completely Christians all the time? 439 00:19:09,801 --> 00:19:11,481 Speaker 2: Like are the things that you actually want to say 440 00:19:11,521 --> 00:19:13,521 Speaker 2: and do at times that you just can't because of 441 00:19:13,561 --> 00:19:14,241 Speaker 2: the role you play. 442 00:19:16,321 --> 00:19:18,881 Speaker 5: I haven't actually found that Emma. I think the great thing, 443 00:19:19,521 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 5: one of the great things about our company is for 444 00:19:24,201 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 5: all of the criticism, I tell you, you know, it's 445 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:29,360 Speaker 5: probably not the right place to get into it, but 446 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 5: for all the criticism is there's a whole lot of 447 00:19:31,481 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 5: great things about our company, as there is, you know, 448 00:19:33,721 --> 00:19:36,241 Speaker 5: and the criticism tends to come from our you know, yes, 449 00:19:36,281 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 5: our critics, but also our competitors. 450 00:19:38,241 --> 00:19:40,120 Speaker 3: The free reign that. 451 00:19:40,041 --> 00:19:43,561 Speaker 5: You get as editor to pursue what it is that 452 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 5: you think is important for your community is pretty extraordinary, 453 00:19:46,201 --> 00:19:50,521 Speaker 5: so you can be authentic. There's the view from the 454 00:19:50,561 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 5: inside of the company is as the editor in a 455 00:19:52,561 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 5: place you are, your job is not just put out 456 00:19:55,120 --> 00:20:00,281 Speaker 5: the product. Your job is to be absolutely an aggressive 457 00:20:00,761 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 5: I suppose, or an out there member and aggressive in 458 00:20:04,761 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 5: a you know, in a good sense, aggressively pursuing you know, 459 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,321 Speaker 5: what makes that community tick, Listening to your readers what's 460 00:20:11,360 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 5: important to them, and connecting that up with the things 461 00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:17,441 Speaker 5: that you hear in the unique access that you get 462 00:20:17,481 --> 00:20:21,521 Speaker 5: around town. And we're let and you know, if I 463 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 5: meet with Robert Thompson, who's our global CEO, all he 464 00:20:26,521 --> 00:20:29,681 Speaker 5: does is ask me questions about Queensland. Because my job 465 00:20:29,721 --> 00:20:32,881 Speaker 5: is to understand Queensland better than anyone else. If you're 466 00:20:32,921 --> 00:20:35,041 Speaker 5: given the freedom to do that, then you can be 467 00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:37,761 Speaker 5: authentic in terms of what you're pursuing, what you're saying, 468 00:20:37,761 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 5: all that sort of stuff. I think the authenticity in 469 00:20:40,721 --> 00:20:45,041 Speaker 5: the workplace hopefully my team see it. I think it's 470 00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:46,481 Speaker 5: often a challenge, isn't it. 471 00:20:46,481 --> 00:20:47,721 Speaker 3: In leadership. You've got a really. 472 00:20:47,521 --> 00:20:51,360 Speaker 5: Busy job where you get so busy and so consumed 473 00:20:51,441 --> 00:20:54,961 Speaker 5: with that to do list that you struggle to find 474 00:20:55,001 --> 00:20:59,761 Speaker 5: the time to show people the authentic you. And when 475 00:20:59,801 --> 00:21:02,120 Speaker 5: you do, you get that connection that you feel like, 476 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 5: oh wow, that's really driving an outcome here, and then 477 00:21:05,201 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 5: you get caught back in your list. Our CTO in 478 00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 5: Australia does a thing where before he even gets to 479 00:21:11,281 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 5: his desk, he walks through the room and talks to 480 00:21:15,961 --> 00:21:17,401 Speaker 5: as many people as he can. 481 00:21:17,521 --> 00:21:18,321 Speaker 3: He must iroze. 482 00:21:18,321 --> 00:21:20,561 Speaker 5: It just sets aside half an hour to just do 483 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 5: that at the start of every working day, and his 484 00:21:25,201 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 5: team you don't even have to say his name, you 485 00:21:27,241 --> 00:21:27,841 Speaker 5: just say has work. 486 00:21:27,921 --> 00:21:28,640 Speaker 3: They oh, I love it. 487 00:21:28,721 --> 00:21:31,161 Speaker 5: Every day my boss comes in and has a authentic 488 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,921 Speaker 5: conversation with me, and it can be about the work, 489 00:21:34,001 --> 00:21:35,640 Speaker 5: but it can also be because we're having this all 490 00:21:35,681 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 5: the time and just talk about life whatever. So I 491 00:21:38,321 --> 00:21:40,121 Speaker 5: try to do that. You go for a wander through 492 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 5: the newsroom, but you're just a slave to the priorities, right, 493 00:21:43,521 --> 00:21:45,201 Speaker 5: and your prior should be a people. I just think 494 00:21:45,321 --> 00:21:48,201 Speaker 5: that juggle is a real constant challenge in my view. 495 00:21:48,241 --> 00:21:50,640 Speaker 2: I say culture's behavior repeated, right, So it's what people 496 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 2: see all the time. So like in some roles and companies, 497 00:21:53,521 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 2: you've got the ability to put things in place and 498 00:21:55,761 --> 00:21:58,241 Speaker 2: practices and rituals, but you know you are living by 499 00:21:58,281 --> 00:22:00,561 Speaker 2: the what's going on around you and what happens. You're 500 00:22:00,561 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 2: at the mercy of that. So I think it's role modeling, 501 00:22:02,961 --> 00:22:04,721 Speaker 2: isn't it. Like if I Win and chatted to five 502 00:22:04,801 --> 00:22:06,441 Speaker 2: r people that work for you, how do you think 503 00:22:06,441 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 2: they'd describe you as a leader. 504 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 5: I hope fundamentally they would say he's a great editor, yeah. 505 00:22:12,521 --> 00:22:14,441 Speaker 3: Because that's what we do. 506 00:22:14,721 --> 00:22:18,881 Speaker 5: And I would worry that they would say a bit 507 00:22:18,961 --> 00:22:21,360 Speaker 5: too much of I don't really know him, as I say, 508 00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:23,321 Speaker 5: that's my constant struggle is just how to get that 509 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 5: balance right to invest in You talk about cultures and 510 00:22:26,721 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 5: it was never modeled to me. 511 00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:29,841 Speaker 3: The newsroom that I spent the first. 512 00:22:29,961 --> 00:22:32,681 Speaker 5: Ten years in at least started in ninety eight, So 513 00:22:32,921 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 5: they weren't smoke filled rooms, but they certainly were filled 514 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,321 Speaker 5: with a bunch of cranky old people who thought the 515 00:22:38,360 --> 00:22:40,521 Speaker 5: way to an outcome and ironically it got you there 516 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 5: was to yell at you and rand and rave and 517 00:22:42,921 --> 00:22:45,441 Speaker 5: carry on. So it was never modeled. And I've never 518 00:22:45,481 --> 00:22:47,521 Speaker 5: actually been in I've never done anything else. I've never 519 00:22:47,521 --> 00:22:51,401 Speaker 5: been in an environment which I can model that behavior 520 00:22:51,441 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 5: of that would be my concern if I'm being vulnerable. 521 00:22:55,201 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 4: Yes, no, it is. 522 00:22:56,801 --> 00:22:58,401 Speaker 2: It's a true thing, right because it comes at risk. 523 00:22:58,521 --> 00:23:01,041 Speaker 2: But when you say, is it more a fear of 524 00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:04,521 Speaker 2: being judged if you are or open? We talk about 525 00:23:04,561 --> 00:23:07,561 Speaker 2: being open? Talk about the most obvious thing COVID Right 526 00:23:07,561 --> 00:23:09,801 Speaker 2: when it happened. Was it like I'm at the helm, 527 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 2: We've got this, It's just go, go, go go. 528 00:23:12,041 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 4: Or is it I'm exhausted? 529 00:23:14,001 --> 00:23:15,801 Speaker 2: How are you guys feeling like I'm not sleeping too 530 00:23:15,801 --> 00:23:17,521 Speaker 2: well with anybody else in this boat? Was there much 531 00:23:17,561 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 2: of that happening at that time? Was that difficult to 532 00:23:19,281 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 2: do because you kind. 533 00:23:20,001 --> 00:23:22,120 Speaker 5: Of had to just well, I think one of the 534 00:23:22,120 --> 00:23:25,561 Speaker 5: great benefits of that lockdown time was that we all 535 00:23:25,801 --> 00:23:30,801 Speaker 5: as leaders hopefully invested in the human side. Yeah, because 536 00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:33,001 Speaker 5: you knew everyone was strong, and you would find the 537 00:23:33,041 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 5: time or lean into that a lot more, maybe because 538 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,481 Speaker 5: you weren't seeing face to face. I think the impact 539 00:23:38,521 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 5: of COVID, obviously it has been huge. I've seen it 540 00:23:40,721 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 5: certainly in our newsroom and in our industry. For so 541 00:23:44,321 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 5: many people it was a really it was a moment 542 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,841 Speaker 5: where they thought about their life and how they want 543 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 5: to spend it. And I think we're still seeing the 544 00:23:52,721 --> 00:23:54,801 Speaker 5: ripples of that. What we used to do in COVID 545 00:23:54,961 --> 00:23:57,801 Speaker 5: is one example is we had a bunch of cadets 546 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 5: as usual who we would normally be training up just 547 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,360 Speaker 5: authentically in the newsroom. So we sat up a weekly 548 00:24:04,441 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 5: hour where we batch them up with mentors. I'd get 549 00:24:07,241 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 5: on there and we just talk to them and you know, 550 00:24:08,961 --> 00:24:10,241 Speaker 5: what's been hard this week? 551 00:24:10,281 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 3: What have you loved doing? 552 00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 5: All that sort of stuff, and we just have that 553 00:24:12,521 --> 00:24:15,561 Speaker 5: chat and just give them that time. Literally, I always 554 00:24:15,561 --> 00:24:18,120 Speaker 5: feel like I'm a prisoner to that, you know, the 555 00:24:18,281 --> 00:24:21,801 Speaker 5: challenge of the to do list versus the people stuff. 556 00:24:21,801 --> 00:24:23,881 Speaker 5: And I think that's also where my comfort. 557 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: Zone is, is that more time though, like, is it 558 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:26,441 Speaker 1: a time thing. 559 00:24:26,961 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 3: It's a comfort thing. 560 00:24:27,721 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, so naturally focused or my safe space is how 561 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:32,801 Speaker 5: are we going to do this? 562 00:24:33,281 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 3: Why are we doing it? How are we going to 563 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:36,281 Speaker 3: do it? You know? What are we going to do? 564 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:38,121 Speaker 3: Rather than whose stuff? I mean? 565 00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:40,281 Speaker 5: I think one of the early lessons in leadership for 566 00:24:40,360 --> 00:24:44,281 Speaker 5: me was this shock that people came every day but 567 00:24:44,321 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 5: also just came generally from a different context. I couldn't 568 00:24:48,001 --> 00:24:50,321 Speaker 5: work out why don't you just want to work twelve 569 00:24:50,321 --> 00:24:50,881 Speaker 5: hours a day? 570 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, why don't you? 571 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,121 Speaker 5: I know you're different, your personality is different. It took 572 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,561 Speaker 5: me a while to learn that everyone turns up in 573 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 5: a to diverent context. And I suppose the extension of 574 00:25:04,120 --> 00:25:08,761 Speaker 5: that being the TJ character is really recognizing you know 575 00:25:08,761 --> 00:25:13,241 Speaker 5: it instinctively, but really recognizing that your success relies on 576 00:25:13,801 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 5: having a great team around you who are focused and 577 00:25:17,281 --> 00:25:21,761 Speaker 5: supported and guided and valued and feel all those things 578 00:25:22,201 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 5: to deliver on the outcome. That has absolutely been a 579 00:25:25,001 --> 00:25:25,561 Speaker 5: journey for me. 580 00:25:25,761 --> 00:25:25,961 Speaker 1: Yeah. 581 00:25:26,001 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 2: Well, I think it's actually a very nice touch on 582 00:25:28,041 --> 00:25:31,281 Speaker 2: empathy in a way, right, because understanding other people's perspectives 583 00:25:31,281 --> 00:25:33,801 Speaker 2: and points of views is a big part of empathy. 584 00:25:34,201 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: I feel empathy's the biggest struggle for leaders out there. 585 00:25:37,041 --> 00:25:37,481 Speaker 4: Personally. 586 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:39,721 Speaker 2: It's a challenging one right because it's holding space for 587 00:25:39,801 --> 00:25:42,801 Speaker 2: other people's emotions and what's going on. But as we're 588 00:25:42,801 --> 00:25:46,041 Speaker 2: seeing with workforces more and more people for the start 589 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 2: I was looking at the other day, but you know, 590 00:25:47,561 --> 00:25:51,041 Speaker 2: something like ninety two percent I think of employees expect 591 00:25:51,241 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 2: their company to be able to provide them with personal 592 00:25:53,921 --> 00:25:54,801 Speaker 2: support and development. 593 00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:57,001 Speaker 4: Now, ten years ago, I remember. 594 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:58,561 Speaker 2: Speaking to somebody who would laugh at that and be like, 595 00:25:58,561 --> 00:26:00,561 Speaker 2: it's not out responsibility. 596 00:25:59,961 --> 00:26:02,281 Speaker 4: Like you know, sort yourself out, but that's what they want. 597 00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:03,681 Speaker 2: And then we're going to have this, you know, gen 598 00:26:03,761 --> 00:26:05,920 Speaker 2: z workforce come twenty third, that thirty percent of our 599 00:26:05,921 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 2: workforce to expect that. 600 00:26:07,481 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 4: Do you see that? 601 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 2: Do you feel now there is that big chef with 602 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,801 Speaker 2: I'm just grateful to have a bloody job versus actually 603 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:14,641 Speaker 2: I need to give. 604 00:26:14,481 --> 00:26:15,360 Speaker 4: These people more. 605 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,881 Speaker 5: Well, you certainly see in the younger group, and that's 606 00:26:19,001 --> 00:26:21,201 Speaker 5: just I think that you're right, that's his generational thing. 607 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:23,440 Speaker 5: I started there and I thought, oh, I want to 608 00:26:23,481 --> 00:26:25,561 Speaker 5: be chief of staff by the time I'm thirty and 609 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 5: I was twenty. You know, like there's my ten year goal. 610 00:26:28,041 --> 00:26:29,481 Speaker 5: These guys come in and go, I'd like to be 611 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,241 Speaker 5: edited next week, you know, like just slow down a bit. 612 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 5: I think what's been interesting post COVID, whether it's a 613 00:26:35,321 --> 00:26:38,001 Speaker 5: post pandemic thing or what it is, there is more 614 00:26:38,041 --> 00:26:41,001 Speaker 5: of that sense. And I think it's probably also related 615 00:26:41,041 --> 00:26:45,441 Speaker 5: to these conversations, giving us in leadership permission to have 616 00:26:45,481 --> 00:26:49,641 Speaker 5: the more vulnerable conversations over lunch or whatever with our peers. 617 00:26:49,801 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 5: Maybe it's also a cultural thing, as people have just 618 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,801 Speaker 5: started to realize, hey, you don't have to just kind 619 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 5: of turn up and do the grind, like there's something 620 00:26:57,481 --> 00:27:01,761 Speaker 5: else going on here too. We spend the third or 621 00:27:01,761 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 5: more of our life, you know, in these workplaces, I 622 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,120 Speaker 5: suppose we expect more. And that's a real challenge for 623 00:27:08,201 --> 00:27:13,321 Speaker 5: busy leaders and particularly INNTJ leaders to dial into the 624 00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:17,641 Speaker 5: thing that you just naturally find the most challenging. 625 00:27:17,721 --> 00:27:20,321 Speaker 2: Yeah. Would you say you're a curious leader or curiosity 626 00:27:20,441 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 2: something you need to I wanted to say curious, not 627 00:27:23,201 --> 00:27:24,721 Speaker 2: as a journalist, as a people leader. 628 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 3: Not enough. 629 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:27,961 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's the kind of underlying bit, right, 630 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 2: is they just wanting to know more about people and 631 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,400 Speaker 2: getting to know it. Yeah, journalism can be an industry 632 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,160 Speaker 2: resistant to change, but you've been an ambassador from bracing change, 633 00:27:36,441 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 2: especially digital media and new technology. So like, where does 634 00:27:39,001 --> 00:27:43,161 Speaker 2: that inspiration come from? Like why are you so driven inevitability? 635 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,481 Speaker 5: One fair and that's like it's a bit flippant, but 636 00:27:46,521 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 5: actually it's also true, right, Like dragging a newsroom that 637 00:27:49,721 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 5: is a print newsroom. Yeah, my entire career, well certainly 638 00:27:54,201 --> 00:27:56,761 Speaker 5: the last all but the first few years has been 639 00:27:56,921 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 5: dragging that newsroom into what will be the future. Obviously, 640 00:28:00,481 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 5: there will be a time where we don't print. I 641 00:28:02,241 --> 00:28:04,801 Speaker 5: don't know when that is. It's further away than we think, 642 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 5: but there will be a time. So the core of 643 00:28:07,281 --> 00:28:10,801 Speaker 5: what we do is still the same storytelling, telling great stories, 644 00:28:10,801 --> 00:28:11,641 Speaker 5: making difference. 645 00:28:11,321 --> 00:28:12,120 Speaker 3: All that sort of stuff. 646 00:28:12,321 --> 00:28:15,360 Speaker 5: In a busy environment with a seven day roster where 647 00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:17,961 Speaker 5: you got a five am starter and a midnight finisher 648 00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:20,961 Speaker 5: and you got six weeks and three days leave a 649 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,521 Speaker 5: year for journalists because they work public holidays, it is 650 00:28:24,721 --> 00:28:28,281 Speaker 5: very very hard to have your Tuesday morning scrum. 651 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 3: It just basically doesn't happen. 652 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,681 Speaker 5: And so driving change, leading change is actually a real 653 00:28:33,921 --> 00:28:38,801 Speaker 5: challenge but is so important for our business, like any business. 654 00:28:38,801 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 5: But also it's just fun. There's this sense of the 655 00:28:41,201 --> 00:28:44,241 Speaker 5: golden ear of newspapers. It was a golden nearer because 656 00:28:44,281 --> 00:28:46,881 Speaker 5: we were just printing money, because we had the monopoly 657 00:28:46,961 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 5: on printing presses and classified ads. It wasn't gold in 658 00:28:50,761 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 5: a lot of other You go back and look at 659 00:28:52,201 --> 00:28:55,241 Speaker 5: some of those products that are pretty crap, and part 660 00:28:55,241 --> 00:28:58,281 Speaker 5: of that was it's so one dimensional if you add 661 00:28:58,281 --> 00:29:01,921 Speaker 5: photos maybe one and a half dimensional, the canvas of 662 00:29:02,041 --> 00:29:06,121 Speaker 5: print versus the canvas of digital. Why wouldn't you'd try 663 00:29:06,161 --> 00:29:09,321 Speaker 5: to lean into the canvas of digital and think about 664 00:29:09,561 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 5: how does that help us tell the stories? Not how 665 00:29:12,481 --> 00:29:18,241 Speaker 5: do we do tricks to add trickery, How does video, audio, graphics, whatever, 666 00:29:18,321 --> 00:29:22,361 Speaker 5: How does that help tell that story and really engage 667 00:29:22,401 --> 00:29:25,281 Speaker 5: the audience in Again, that story that you're telling I 668 00:29:25,281 --> 00:29:27,121 Speaker 5: think is just bloody. 669 00:29:26,761 --> 00:29:30,921 Speaker 2: Exciting, absolutely very conscious of time. Crest a more minutes, 670 00:29:31,241 --> 00:29:31,841 Speaker 2: you sure loving. 671 00:29:31,841 --> 00:29:33,561 Speaker 3: It's the best counseling session I've ever been to. 672 00:29:34,161 --> 00:29:36,801 Speaker 1: I haven't even and I'm only scoping service. You're lucky. 673 00:29:36,801 --> 00:29:40,761 Speaker 3: I've I appreciate. 674 00:29:40,201 --> 00:29:42,481 Speaker 1: It, thinking I could, but I'm not going to push 675 00:29:42,481 --> 00:29:42,921 Speaker 1: them too hard. 676 00:29:43,121 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 2: All right, A couple more I want to ask you here, 677 00:29:44,761 --> 00:29:46,881 Speaker 2: So when we talk about asking the hard questions. 678 00:29:46,921 --> 00:29:48,841 Speaker 1: I mean, you're not afraid to ask hard questions right 679 00:29:48,881 --> 00:29:50,121 Speaker 1: in journalism. 680 00:29:49,761 --> 00:29:53,401 Speaker 2: But what about having the difficult, hard conversations with your staff, 681 00:29:53,841 --> 00:29:56,201 Speaker 2: like you have to let someone know they're not performing 682 00:29:56,241 --> 00:29:58,681 Speaker 2: so well or whatever else do you have to deal with? 683 00:29:58,801 --> 00:29:59,681 Speaker 4: How do you feel about those? 684 00:29:59,801 --> 00:30:01,841 Speaker 3: It's the most important thing. It's also the hardest thing. 685 00:30:01,921 --> 00:30:03,961 Speaker 4: Yeah. Is it a skill of yours that you feel like. 686 00:30:03,881 --> 00:30:06,401 Speaker 5: Oh, I feel like I'm good at it in the moment, 687 00:30:06,441 --> 00:30:10,001 Speaker 5: I feel like I'm also incredibly good at putting it off, Okay, 688 00:30:10,201 --> 00:30:13,841 Speaker 5: And that is a big learning that I've had, particularly 689 00:30:13,881 --> 00:30:15,561 Speaker 5: over the last eight years when I've been in the 690 00:30:15,841 --> 00:30:18,561 Speaker 5: editor type roles or the editor roles. Is just the 691 00:30:18,721 --> 00:30:22,961 Speaker 5: critical importance of leaning into them and it's getting them done, 692 00:30:23,041 --> 00:30:25,321 Speaker 5: ripping the band aid off. It's not only important for 693 00:30:25,401 --> 00:30:28,241 Speaker 5: you as the leader. It's not important for the subject 694 00:30:28,281 --> 00:30:33,081 Speaker 5: of that tough conversation. It's actually equally as important for 695 00:30:33,121 --> 00:30:35,921 Speaker 5: the team. Yeah, because the team know that person needs 696 00:30:35,961 --> 00:30:36,601 Speaker 5: that conversation. 697 00:30:36,681 --> 00:30:37,441 Speaker 4: Yeah, one hundred percent. 698 00:30:38,121 --> 00:30:40,161 Speaker 5: The longer you leave it to fester, the more it 699 00:30:40,281 --> 00:30:42,761 Speaker 5: impacts on how the team views your leadership. 700 00:30:42,841 --> 00:30:44,561 Speaker 2: Couldn't agree more and look to be honest when I 701 00:30:44,601 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 2: ask that question, and I often do. I mean, if 702 00:30:46,721 --> 00:30:48,401 Speaker 2: someone said to me they don't have a problem with that, 703 00:30:48,561 --> 00:30:50,601 Speaker 2: I think, then there's a problem with the leader because 704 00:30:50,641 --> 00:30:52,481 Speaker 2: it should affect you. Right, You're still dealing with someone's 705 00:30:52,481 --> 00:30:54,481 Speaker 2: feelings and emotions. The point is you can't avoid it. 706 00:30:54,481 --> 00:30:56,761 Speaker 2: It's that my favorite Brene Brown line clear is kind 707 00:30:56,841 --> 00:30:57,801 Speaker 2: unclear as unkind. 708 00:30:57,881 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: So I think it's important to do that. This is 709 00:31:00,201 --> 00:31:00,761 Speaker 1: a tough one. 710 00:31:01,241 --> 00:31:02,321 Speaker 4: But why not awesome? 711 00:31:02,361 --> 00:31:04,401 Speaker 2: I means, if you wouldn't give it, I want to know, 712 00:31:04,481 --> 00:31:07,841 Speaker 2: Chris Jane, why should anyone be led by you? 713 00:31:08,161 --> 00:31:11,881 Speaker 5: I would hope it's because I'm a leader who's genuinely 714 00:31:12,481 --> 00:31:16,601 Speaker 5: always trying to do better. I'm well aware, as you've 715 00:31:16,681 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 5: awkwardly exposed in the last half hour, how many gaps 716 00:31:21,001 --> 00:31:23,841 Speaker 5: I've got. But I spend lots of time on self reflection. 717 00:31:23,881 --> 00:31:25,761 Speaker 5: I sard lots of time thinking about how can I be 718 00:31:25,761 --> 00:31:26,321 Speaker 5: a better leader? 719 00:31:26,361 --> 00:31:27,841 Speaker 3: What do I need to do to be better? 720 00:31:28,001 --> 00:31:29,881 Speaker 5: And I'm always striving to be there, to be better, 721 00:31:30,001 --> 00:31:32,081 Speaker 5: to be like a Not to deflect, but it's a 722 00:31:32,081 --> 00:31:34,041 Speaker 5: bit like our journalism. It's not always right, but do 723 00:31:34,241 --> 00:31:35,921 Speaker 5: we try hard to get it right and make the 724 00:31:36,001 --> 00:31:39,481 Speaker 5: right cause, so there's that, and hopefully also what comes 725 00:31:39,481 --> 00:31:42,281 Speaker 5: through is you know, my passion for what we do. 726 00:31:42,881 --> 00:31:43,481 Speaker 3: I love it. 727 00:31:43,681 --> 00:31:44,361 Speaker 4: Yeah, I can tell. 728 00:31:44,681 --> 00:31:46,561 Speaker 2: The definite constant theme I've seen with a lot of 729 00:31:46,561 --> 00:31:48,561 Speaker 2: people is this, when you have this deep passion, it 730 00:31:48,561 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 2: doesn't feel like hard work of time. It's tough, but 731 00:31:50,801 --> 00:31:52,961 Speaker 2: it feels different, and I think, I mean, what a gift. 732 00:31:52,961 --> 00:31:54,321 Speaker 2: Not everybody in their life will get to do a 733 00:31:54,401 --> 00:31:55,921 Speaker 2: job where they feel that way, and so I think 734 00:31:55,961 --> 00:31:57,521 Speaker 2: for as long as you feel that way and you 735 00:31:57,601 --> 00:32:00,001 Speaker 2: turn up, I'm sure other people will feel it. I 736 00:32:00,001 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 2: could talk to you for a very long time, but 737 00:32:01,481 --> 00:32:03,681 Speaker 2: I want to thank you for coming on and for 738 00:32:03,761 --> 00:32:06,161 Speaker 2: being so honest and vulnerable, because it's not always. 739 00:32:05,881 --> 00:32:07,681 Speaker 1: Easy to do, and it is a gift for other 740 00:32:07,721 --> 00:32:08,841 Speaker 1: people because. 741 00:32:08,521 --> 00:32:10,921 Speaker 2: A lot of people look up to you and admire you, 742 00:32:11,001 --> 00:32:13,161 Speaker 2: and to be able to see that you're not this 743 00:32:13,361 --> 00:32:15,321 Speaker 2: infallible human and that there's things about you too that 744 00:32:15,361 --> 00:32:16,521 Speaker 2: you want to work on and grow on, it is 745 00:32:16,561 --> 00:32:17,321 Speaker 2: going to be great for people. 746 00:32:17,361 --> 00:32:19,001 Speaker 3: Well, look, I've really enjoyed That's what I've tried to 747 00:32:19,001 --> 00:32:19,681 Speaker 3: bring today. 748 00:32:19,441 --> 00:32:21,241 Speaker 5: Am, because I think you, as I said at the start, 749 00:32:21,241 --> 00:32:22,881 Speaker 5: you're doing such a great job with these things. I 750 00:32:22,881 --> 00:32:26,001 Speaker 5: think they're a real gift to others. And when you 751 00:32:26,001 --> 00:32:27,881 Speaker 5: asked me to do it, I thought, yeah, I reckon, 752 00:32:27,921 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 5: I can do that. 753 00:32:28,481 --> 00:32:29,041 Speaker 3: And I think. 754 00:32:28,921 --> 00:32:33,801 Speaker 5: Hopefully, hopefully that vulnerability is not just help showing that 755 00:32:33,841 --> 00:32:36,761 Speaker 5: I'm human like everyone, but also just hopefully people have 756 00:32:36,841 --> 00:32:38,961 Speaker 5: picked up other leaders who struggle with the same things 757 00:32:39,601 --> 00:32:41,001 Speaker 5: are hearing going, wow, I'm not alone. 758 00:32:41,121 --> 00:32:42,401 Speaker 1: Absolutely Bill's connection. 759 00:32:42,481 --> 00:32:44,321 Speaker 2: When does the real counseling session I was going to 760 00:32:44,321 --> 00:32:45,601 Speaker 2: say to you, does that mean that you're going to 761 00:32:45,601 --> 00:32:47,241 Speaker 2: come on for a round two where I'll be way 762 00:32:47,321 --> 00:32:48,401 Speaker 2: tough and you I took it easy. 763 00:32:48,561 --> 00:32:49,361 Speaker 4: I took it easy time. 764 00:32:49,401 --> 00:32:51,001 Speaker 1: I reckon you find We'll see how you go for 765 00:32:51,001 --> 00:32:51,401 Speaker 1: around too. 766 00:32:51,401 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 4: But thank you for coming on. 767 00:32:52,321 --> 00:32:52,881 Speaker 1: It's been great. 768 00:32:53,081 --> 00:32:54,001 Speaker 4: Thanks Chris Thos