WEBVTT - Why the toxic culture at Parliament still isn’t fixed 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:10.879 From Schwartz Media. I'm Ashlin McGee. This is seven AM. 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:13.960 In workplaces across the country, it feels like there's been 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:17.599 a slow but steady reckoning on sexual harassment and discrimination. 0:00:18.440 --> 0:00:21.600 Many powerful positions have been publicly held to account and 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:24.880 even sacked. That moment of reckoning was supposed to have 0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:28.040 already come to the most high profile workplace in the country, 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:31.160 Parliament House. But a few years on, how much has 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:36.040 it really changed today? The Saturday Paper's chief political correspondent 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:40.880 Karen Barlow on the challenges of policing parliamentarians and why 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:48.520 alcohol is so ingrained in political culture. It's Thursday, June 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:56.080 sixth Karen, It's been two and a half years since 0:00:56.200 --> 0:00:59.320 Kate Jenkins handed down her damning review of the culture 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:02.040 at Parliament House. What did you decide to check in now? 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:03.760 With the progress that's been made? 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:04.240 Oh? 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:06.520 Look, one of the main reasons why I wanted to 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:08.600 check in was just the fact that I talked to 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:11.959 people in the building Parliament House all the time about 0:01:12.000 --> 0:01:14.720 what is better about the place and what's not. I 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:19.720 talked to staffers, I talked to MP senators and there's 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:23.880 a real common thread about things are better but there's 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:26.640 still a long way to go. They've noticed change, but 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:30.280 there's still things that are happening around this building that 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:36.200 include sexist comments, really some old attitudes, and it was 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:38.119 worth a sort of dig around. You dig a little 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:40.319 bit further and you talk to people who work here, 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:42.839 and there's still bullying that goes on. There are still 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:45.720 some concerning things that need to be investigated. There are 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:48.360 structures that have been now put in place to help people, 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:52.120 but it is not and very far from perfect around 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:55.160 this building. The other thing I would say is the 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:58.120 highlight recently of ending gendered violence. 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:02.320 I'm glad to be here with women, men, boys and 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:08.240 girls saying we won violence against women and children to stop. 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:11.080 One thing that really stood out to me was a 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:14.519 statement that the Prime Minister said, which was all governments 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:15.720 need to do better. 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:21.320 Today, to demand that governments of all levels must do better, 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:25.400 including my own, including every state and territory government. 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:29.839 And that said to me set the standard. It brought 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:33.240 me right back to where are we setting the standard? 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:36.280 And I've really quickly found it's not hard to find 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:38.200 that we're not setting the standard. 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:40.040 In this building of Parliament House. 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:43.160 I'm joined by the Minister Women the Minister Foreign Affairs 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:46.239 and the Minister of Finance to release the Jenkins Review. 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:49.720 A little while ago, I had the opportunity to speak 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:54.320 to Kate Jenkins and thank her for the tremendous work 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:55.320 that she has done. 0:02:55.520 --> 0:03:00.839 In March this year, following several people courageously share their 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:06.120 experiences of bleing, sexual harassment and sexual assault, the Austrange 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:09.680 Human Rights Commission was asked to conduct the independent review 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:11.799 of Commonwealth Parliamentary workplaces. 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:14.240 Karen, were you in the building when that report was 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:14.760 handed in. 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:17.760 I was, and it was still shocking to read it 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:19.920 all in one spot because I guess a lot of 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:23.080 this is these are cases that are anonymous. 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:24.600 That was the only way. 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:27.240 That these people felt that they could come forward. This 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:30.800 is a case of, you know, people wanting to not 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:32.000 ruin their careers. 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:38.280 Many people shared distressing experiences of blean, sexual harassment and 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:44.040 sexual assault, sometimes for the first time. They said these 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:48.760 things could never be shared with anyone else. They did 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:51.640 so with the hope that they could help make this 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:54.960 workplace better for those who come after them. 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:58.360 I think it's important to take a step back just 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:03.840 to remind everyone that this important landmark report came from 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:07.600 when Britney Higgins told us about what had happened to 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:11.480 her inside Parliament House, the rape that happened inside a 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:14.160 ministerial office, a rape which has now been proven to 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:17.320 a civil standard. This is something that was ordered by 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:20.719 the Morrison government and it was something that wasn't just 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:24.760 Britney's story, it was many other staffers had come forward 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:27.680 and said that there were inappropriate relationships, bullying and harassment 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:32.680 and look, he found a toxic workplace. It found widespread 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:35.080 bullying and harassment and cases of assault. 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:37.120 One in three. 0:04:37.160 --> 0:04:42.080 Parliamentary workers in these Commonwealth parliamentary workplaces experienced sexual assault. 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:46.880 That is a really high number of cases. And one 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:50.239 other one that stood out to me was the fact 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:54.479 that female parliamentarians, and these are the people that are 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:58.880 I guess up in the high area of power in 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:02.760 this building, but still male parliamentarians experienced sixty three percent 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:07.599 cases of sexual harassment and the national average is around 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:10.920 a third, so that's really high. So there is some 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:14.120 awful cases that were highlighted in the report. 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:16.040 A case of a staffer. 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:19.480 Pointing out the revolting and humiliating experience of having a 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:23.640 male boss, a male MP sticking his tongue down her throat, 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:30.040 just shocking accounts to find it all bundled up and 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:35.080 to read through the raw statistics of all these numbers 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:37.320 are actually cases of people who have. 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:38.440 Suffered in this building. 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:42.640 So it led to twenty eight recommendations to improve the 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:48.159 situation around Parliament House, and there is a promise, a 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:52.080 election promise from the Albanese government to implement all of them. 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:55.320 What is it about Parliament that's created this culture and 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:57.440 that makes it so hard to change. 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:01.360 This is a building that is like no other workplace 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:04.560 in the country. This is a big building where there 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:08.080 are on any given day one thousand people working in 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:11.559 Parliament House and on a sitting day somewhere between four 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:15.040 and five thousand people. So it's not a small workplace. 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:18.880 This is a place that is highly charged, high pressure. 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:21.000 It is full of. 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:24.520 Quite a few, I would say, a type personalities that 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:29.560 they are pressing themselves inside this building, which is like 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:33.240 a hot boiler situation. There is so much pressure it 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:38.760 trickles down into the offices, which then trickles down into 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:45.160 the non political offices, the parliamentary libraries. There is long hours. 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:48.479 People have come from all parts of the country. They're 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:51.720 away from home, and people deal with some of the 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:55.120 pressure by drinking, and that's the cause from problems in itself. 0:06:58.080 --> 0:06:58.760 It's a hot. 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:02.160 Topic about how this place is getting better or it's 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:04.840 not getting better. And I did speak to a parliamentarian, 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:08.240 a female parliamentarian. She told me that, yep, when I 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:11.320 come to Canberra, I don't drink. I don't go out 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:14.920 and I've made sure that all my staff are female. 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:17.040 That's just the way that I deal with it. I've 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:20.560 spoken to other female parliamentarians. They don't go out in Canberra. 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:24.200 I spoke to Lydia Thorpe, who has a case that's 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:28.360 still ongoing with another Senator, David Van, and she told 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:32.880 me that she doesn't go out in Canberra anymore and 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:35.520 that she feels that it is still a boys club 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:39.040 and that nothing has changed in this building. 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:55.960 After the break. Why politicians don't want to ban the booze? Karen? 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:59.640 People in Parliament House telling you the culture hasn't changed enough. 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:02.680 Why is that? What happened to the twenty eight recommendations 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:04.760 we got from the Jenkins Report. 0:08:05.280 --> 0:08:08.560 Well, I guess what's happened. 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:12.000 First up is the low hanging fruit has been dealt 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:16.520 with and There have been a lot of progress. 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:18.000 With many of the recommendations. 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:22.280 We have things like the Parliamentary Workplace Support Service where 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:25.640 people in trouble at any level can go to them 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:30.360 and ask for assistance or advice. This is something that 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:33.920 was set up pretty quickly. That is something that is 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:37.400 working and most people who go to the Parliamentary Workplace 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:40.880 Support Service report that the advice to get there, the 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:43.720 people that work there are good and they are very helpful. 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:47.959 There are changes around the building just from small things 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:54.360 like better medical help were needed. There's vending machines around 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:57.120 the building because people realize that there is a tendency 0:08:57.120 --> 0:08:59.000 to get stuck in the building because you work some 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:01.440 really long hours. Its vending machine or two around the 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:06.440 building where you can get headache tablets or hygiene products 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:07.240 or things like that. 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:08.840 Stockings even it's amazing. 0:09:09.080 --> 0:09:13.000 But there are two big recommendations that are being held 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:18.480 up at the moment, and the interesting thing about that 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:20.600 is that they are the two pieces of reform that 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:24.280 directly impact on MP and senator behavior. That's to do 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:26.840 with the amount of alcohol that flows through the building 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:30.720 and to do with the enforcement of a code of 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:36.000 conduct for serious complaints and that's the Independent Parliamentary Standards Commission, 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:38.600 and this is a body that is supposed to have teeth. 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:40.520 It's supposed to be in place very soon, but it's 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:43.920 been held up like the alcohol policy, because there is 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:48.360 a lot of internal debate between the parties about how 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:54.760 to go forward and what format should take. But there 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:59.520 is a Parliamentary Leader's Task Force. There's representation from the 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:04.280 major parties and some of the independents on that particular body. 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:07.280 They're working through this on a non partisan way. They 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:10.600 want to get the reform through and I have spoken 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:14.840 to the Finance Minister, Katie Gallaher, and she's confident that 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:17.880 there will be legislation that will be put to Parliament 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:21.880 fairly soon and that there will be a new commission 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:25.079 set up by October so we can start having this 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:27.520 sense of consequence in the building. 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:31.000 So, Karen, you've been speaking to some of the female 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:34.000 parliamentarians that are on this task force. What are they 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:35.680 saying about why there are delays. 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:39.679 I understand that there is immense goodwill on the Parliamentary 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:43.760 Leadership Task Force. There are people such as Susan Lee 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:48.040 from the Opposition, and there is Katie Gallaher and Don Farrell. 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:52.160 There's also Zalie Stegel, there's Larissa Wader from the Greens. 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:54.960 There is good will. 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:57.760 But there is this difficulty of getting it through the 0:10:57.800 --> 0:11:02.520 party room. In the major parties, there are wide big 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:05.880 party rooms of very varying interests. There may be people 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:08.640 that have done this sort of behavior and on the quiet. 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:14.439 This is something that is essentially about politicians policing their 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:18.120 own behavior and it is proving very difficult to get through. 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:21.400 So what could happen if there is a serious breach 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:23.760 of the code of conduct. This is for stuff of 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:28.760 serious cases like assault or serious cases a bullying and harassment. 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:32.640 There would be a possibility for parliamentarians to be suspended. 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:36.800 They could be dismissed from a committee. They could have 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:40.560 their salary or their allowances stocked. And there is a 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:43.959 real controversy over how much money should be docked from 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:47.960 a parliamentarian's salary, and it could be between two and 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:51.080 five percent of their base salary. That is some of 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:53.280 the controversy, but it does come down to the core 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:57.480 thing that a parliamentarian, an MP or a senator cannot 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:00.840 be sacked from their job. And that's it's really interesting 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:05.440 because I guess if this situation, a serious complaint had happened, 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:09.160 and in any other workplace they could get sat In 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:12.840 this particular circumstance, it's down to the electorate to decide 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:16.960 whether a parliamentarian should lose their job for doing something 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:18.360 awful to another human being. 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:22.720 Karen, It's been six years since I worked at Parliament House, 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:25.440 and back then it's exactly how you described it. It was 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:28.040 really blowkey and boozy. There were functions every night with 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:30.920 heaps of free drinks, and that was really where the 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:34.040 real work happened. So as a staffer or as a journo, 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:37.320 you really had to be there after hours to get 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.000 ahead and do your job. You've been in the building 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:43.280 so much longer than I ever was. Is there a 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:46.920 world of work now that happens outside of that? Is 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:48.400 it significantly different? 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:53.600 Some things are exactly the same, So the boozy dinners 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:57.880 still happen. There are still those sort of events that 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:02.160 happen out of ours. I've had the situation where Barnaby 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:05.520 Joyce had a couple too many and he got himself 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:06.280 into all sorts of. 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:08.800 Trouble, fronting up after falling down. 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:11.600 Good morning, how are you? I made a big mistake. 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:14.760 There's no excuse for it. There's a reason. 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:18.080 There's reason drinking whilst taking a prescription drug. 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:20.720 They say, certain things may happen to you. 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:24.280 There are events that still happen inside the building and 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:27.680 alcohol is still served, but we are still working through 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:30.440 whether there'll be tougher standards about that. But they're not 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:32.600 going to get rid of I've got no impression from 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:35.680 my discussion with Katie Gallaher that they're going to stop 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:38.599 alcohol in the building. That just is not going to 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:42.040 totally happen. But things have to change. Is it still 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:46.600 a boys club? Well, yes, there are still things that 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:48.440 only male parliamentarians will do. 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:49.800 They'll catch up with their own ones. 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:53.400 I would say that the independent female MPs that came 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:56.160 in in the last term of Parliament have made a 0:13:56.160 --> 0:14:01.000 big change to the way discourse has happened in this place. 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:03.840 I think back to Kylie Tink where she stood up 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:08.560 and complained in Parliament about how she felt unsafe when 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:12.160 there was a change in procedure and she was yelled 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:14.760 at at and what she said was an aggressive matter 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:19.000 and she drew attention to that. Would people have drawn 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:22.040 attention to that in the past. It got attention and 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:25.000 made people think about how they should be behaving in 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:28.560 the chamber. Is it still happening in the chamber? Well, yes, 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:35.360 there are concerns. There is a rough and tumble in 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:38.760 the Parliament. It's a real blurry line between whether that 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:43.920 then constitutes bullying. But it is still a rough place. 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:50.160 It's still a very difficult place in many senses. I 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:53.560 would say that what I hear when I talk to 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:56.560 people in Parliament House is that there will only be 0:14:56.680 --> 0:15:02.280 true change when there are consequences laid down for serious events, 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:05.080 and that's something that has to be worked through once 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:09.480 there is an independent Parliamentary Standards Commission, and let's wait 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:10.080 and see. 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:10.400 On that one. 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:19.600 Karen, thanks so much for your time. 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:20.720 Thank you. 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:38.080 Also in the news today, three Tourism Australia staff who 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:41.200 went on private holidays using one hundred and thirty seven 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:44.400 thousand dollars of taxpayer funds are being investigated by the 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:48.160 National Anti Corruption Commission. The three staff have been sacked 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:51.160 from the trus and body, but Truism Australia officials haven't 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:53.920 yet revealed the destination or the nature of the trips, 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:59.280 citing the need for investigations to be completed and Elon 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:03.119 masks play x dot Com will be able to continue 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:05.880 hosting graphic video of the stabbing of a bishop in 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:10.640 Sydney after Australia's E Safety Commissioner Julie inmngrant announced she 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:14.080 was dropping court action against it. The commissioner says the 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:18.000 decision isn't a concession to masks allegation she'd overreached in 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:22.080 the case and attempted to act as a global censor. Yesterday. 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:24.920 Mcgrant said that was a furfey and she believes the 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:28.080 only way to pursue tech giants overhalf full content is 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:32.600 to target the global servers that host it. I'm Acheline McGee. 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:34.880 That's all from us today at seven am. Thanks for 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:36.960 your company. We'll see you again tomorrow.