WEBVTT - Part 1: Inside James and Rupert Murdoch’s meltdown

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<v Speaker 1>Confident of victory, are there any ongoing settlementar So on

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<v Speaker 1>that day, James and his wife Catherine, and his sisters

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<v Speaker 1>all pulled up at the courthouse in Reno, Nevada.

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<v Speaker 2>That day is Monday, sixteenth of September twenty twenty four,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's the first day of the court case that

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<v Speaker 2>would decide the future of the Murdoch media empire.

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<v Speaker 1>They walked up. About thirty minutes later, Rupert and Lachlan

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<v Speaker 1>and their team pulled up. They had actually coordinated with

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<v Speaker 1>each other to ensure that they didn't arrive at the

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<v Speaker 1>same time, because they didn't want the cameras there to

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<v Speaker 1>capture the hostility that now defined their family.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly what happened when Rupert Murdoch and his four children

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<v Speaker 2>entered that courtroom in Nevada was a tightly guarded secret.

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<v Speaker 2>But now one of the people in the room is

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<v Speaker 2>for the first time giving their account of the case

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<v Speaker 2>and how it tore apart their family.

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<v Speaker 1>The thing that James remembers most from that first day

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<v Speaker 1>in the courthouse was he got to the court room

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<v Speaker 1>and he told me that he was surprised by how

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<v Speaker 1>emotional he was.

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<v Speaker 2>In a rare interview, James Murdock has spoken at length

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<v Speaker 2>to journalist Mackay Coppins.

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<v Speaker 1>He said, he, you know, just looked across the court

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<v Speaker 1>room at his father and his brother, and these are

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<v Speaker 1>men that he had known, you know, his whole life,

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<v Speaker 1>whom he had loved, he'd shared all these memories with,

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<v Speaker 1>and they were now completely estranged from one another, involved

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<v Speaker 1>in this bitter legal battle. And he said, the question

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<v Speaker 1>he just kept asking himself and has continued to ask

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<v Speaker 1>himself since, says, how did we let it come to this?

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<v Speaker 1>And I think that that's still a question he hasn't

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<v Speaker 1>been able to answer.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Ruby Jones, and you're listening to seven.

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<v Speaker 3>Am Today staff writer at the Atlanta Tick McKay Coffins

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<v Speaker 3>on why James Murdoch wanted to lay his story there

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<v Speaker 3>and the bit of details that set the stage for

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<v Speaker 3>the battle over the Murdock Empire.

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<v Speaker 2>It's Wednesday, January eighth, and this is part one of

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<v Speaker 2>our two part interview that we originally published in February

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<v Speaker 2>last year. So McKay, to begin with, could you tell

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<v Speaker 2>me a bit about how your relationship with James Murdoch

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<v Speaker 2>began and why it was that you think he chose

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<v Speaker 2>to speak with you at length.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, I approached him early last year, almost on

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<v Speaker 1>kind of a lark. You know, there had been a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of interest in sort of the future of the

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<v Speaker 1>Murdoch media empire once Rupert stepped back and decided to retire.

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<v Speaker 1>And I just kind of had this sense that James,

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<v Speaker 1>who is Rupert's youngest son and had spent a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of time working in the family business, but had said

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<v Speaker 1>and it's sort of been exiled from it, might have

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<v Speaker 1>an interesting story to tell. I didn't know I might

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<v Speaker 1>never met him. I reached out and found myself sitting

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<v Speaker 1>across from him in New York and learned shortly thereafter

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<v Speaker 1>that his family was in the midst of this kind

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<v Speaker 1>of bitter meltdown, and it was happening in secret. A

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<v Speaker 1>secretive quote batt alone.

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<v Speaker 2>The future of Rupid Medok's media empire is underway in

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<v Speaker 2>the US side of Nevada, North.

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<v Speaker 4>Murdoch, who is ninety three years old, is seeking to

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<v Speaker 4>update his family trust, which controls a major portion of

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<v Speaker 4>the Fox News empire.

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<v Speaker 3>Well.

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<v Speaker 4>His goal is to ensure that his eldest son, Lachlan,

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<v Speaker 4>will take over the media business after his death. The

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<v Speaker 4>family feud Pitts Murdoch and his eldest son, Lachlan against

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<v Speaker 4>the three other siblings, James, Elizabeth, and Prudence, his eldest child.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think that James saw this as a real

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<v Speaker 1>betrayal and because of it, he sort of felt liberated

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<v Speaker 1>for the first time time to share his story and

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<v Speaker 1>kind of talk about what he had seen behind the

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<v Speaker 1>scenes that the family media businesses. Inside the Murdoch family,

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<v Speaker 1>he had always been taught, you know, never to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about the family, never air the dirty laundry, certainly not

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<v Speaker 1>to a reporter like me. But he felt like he

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<v Speaker 1>had a story to tell and his side of the

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<v Speaker 1>story had never truly been represented, and I think that's

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<v Speaker 1>why he decided to talk.

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<v Speaker 2>And I want to talk more about that court case

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<v Speaker 2>Rupert's attempt to change the family trust. But first I'm

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<v Speaker 2>just curious, over the course of the time that you

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<v Speaker 2>spent with James, how would you describe his personality.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he's an interesting guy. So inside the Murdoch family,

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<v Speaker 1>he's always been sort of stereotyped. I think all families

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<v Speaker 1>sort of stereotype their children in different ways. Right, you're

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<v Speaker 1>assigned roles to play. He's always been a bit of

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<v Speaker 1>a black sheep. He's been the rebel as a kid.

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<v Speaker 1>He was the one who, you know, asked contrarian question

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<v Speaker 1>at the dinner table and got piercings and tattoos and

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<v Speaker 1>got in trouble at school. But he's also very smart,

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<v Speaker 1>and I caught him at an interesting moment because I

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<v Speaker 1>think that he was given everything that it was happening

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<v Speaker 1>to his family, reassessing these memories he had and these

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<v Speaker 1>experiences he'd had, so he could be pretty introspective. He

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<v Speaker 1>could also be pretty sad. I think that he is

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<v Speaker 1>really struggling with what's happened to his family, his estrangement

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<v Speaker 1>from his father and his older brother, and there were

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<v Speaker 1>times when he was quite emotional. There were times when

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<v Speaker 1>he was very angry. Most of the time, he was

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<v Speaker 1>just kind of trying to process his life in this

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<v Speaker 1>very famous and kind of dysfunctional family.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's James's older brother, Laughlin, who has become Rupert's

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<v Speaker 2>chosen successor, but that wasn't always necessarily the case. Can

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<v Speaker 2>you tell me a bit about what James said to

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<v Speaker 2>you about the time in which he might have been

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<v Speaker 2>considered the potential successor when he was deeply involved in

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<v Speaker 2>the family business.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's right. Well, James joined the family business in

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<v Speaker 1>his twenties and for a while James and Lachlan were

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<v Speaker 1>both working there. Lachlan was always the favorite. He was

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<v Speaker 1>kind of more, you know, charismatic and emulative of his dad.

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<v Speaker 1>He kind of seemed like, in some way as a

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<v Speaker 1>mini Rupert. My father's remarkable and what is achieved. I

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<v Speaker 1>think the I work as hard as I can, to

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<v Speaker 1>do as much as I can and take one challenge

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<v Speaker 1>at a time. And he was always the logical successor.

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<v Speaker 1>He was the oldest brother. Rupert was grooming him. But

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<v Speaker 1>in two thousand and five Lachlan quit and moved back

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<v Speaker 1>to Australia and decided he didn't want to have anything

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<v Speaker 1>to do with the family business.

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<v Speaker 2>Once considered first among equals, today thirty three year old

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<v Speaker 2>Lachlan Murdock is no longer heir apparent to the seventy

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<v Speaker 2>billion dollar news corporation empire.

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<v Speaker 1>And that made James the kind of default successor. James

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<v Speaker 1>ended up working in the family companies for twenty years.

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<v Speaker 1>He was an executive at news Corp, News International, twenty

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<v Speaker 1>first Century Fox and was groomed as the successor, but

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<v Speaker 1>it was always uncomfortable. What James told me is that

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<v Speaker 1>he and Rupert really did not share a vision for

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<v Speaker 1>what these companies should be. Rupert liked to run things

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<v Speaker 1>in this kind of reckless way. He was a you know,

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<v Speaker 1>he's a gambler. He surrounded himself with these aggressive deputies

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<v Speaker 1>who he told to kind of, you know, risk everything,

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<v Speaker 1>act like pirates, you know, move fast and break things.

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<v Speaker 1>That that was kind of Rupert's mentality. James really believed

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<v Speaker 1>that a good company should have a strong internal culture,

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<v Speaker 1>and he was immersed in management theory, and he wanted

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<v Speaker 1>these companies to be run in the appropriate, proper way.

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<v Speaker 5>As long as we can just look at a marketplace

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<v Speaker 5>and say, if there's something that we can do a

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<v Speaker 5>little bit better, focus on our customer a little bit more,

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<v Speaker 5>create a choice where there wasn't one before, and we

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<v Speaker 5>always think that's a good opportunity. And as long as

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<v Speaker 5>we stay focused on that, we can deal with all

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<v Speaker 5>the noise around it.

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<v Speaker 1>And so they always kind of clashed on things like that,

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<v Speaker 1>and they never really saw Idaye. I think on some level,

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<v Speaker 1>Rupert resented his son's obsession with respectability, and James always

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<v Speaker 1>kind of was aggravated by Rupert's allergy to discipline, and

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<v Speaker 1>so in some way they just never really saw ida eye.

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<v Speaker 2>After the break the final straw in the breakdown between

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<v Speaker 2>James and his dad.

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<v Speaker 6>Missus chairman, thank you very much, And first of all,

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<v Speaker 6>I would like to say as well, just how sorry

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<v Speaker 6>I am and sorry we are to particularly the victims

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<v Speaker 6>of illegal voicemail interceptions and to their families.

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<v Speaker 2>As for my comments, mkay, it was of course the

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<v Speaker 2>phone hacking scandal in the UK that really spelled the

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<v Speaker 2>end of James's ascent. In Your Peace, James is quoted

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<v Speaker 2>as saying that it was actually one of his sisters

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<v Speaker 2>who conveyed the message that he was to take the

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<v Speaker 2>fall for that. So can you tell me about that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, right at the height of the phone hacking scandal,

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<v Speaker 1>which was obviously an incredibly stressful time for James. And

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<v Speaker 1>I actually got this not just from James, but from

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<v Speaker 1>Liz herself. She kind of admits to it now. She

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<v Speaker 1>said she went and met with Rupert and suggested to

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<v Speaker 1>her father that's a member of the family was going

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<v Speaker 1>to have to take the fall for this. That just

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<v Speaker 1>firing kind of a lower level executive at the company

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't going to satisfy the public outrage over this, and

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<v Speaker 1>she made the case to Rupert in that moment that

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<v Speaker 1>James should take the fall, that he was the most

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<v Speaker 1>logical scapegoat, that they should announce that he was stepping

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<v Speaker 1>down moving back to New York, and they could frame

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<v Speaker 1>the whole thing as kind of a mea culpa on

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<v Speaker 1>the part of the Murdocks. Rupert said, let me think

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<v Speaker 1>about it. Came back the next day and said to Liz,

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's a good idea. We should do it,

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<v Speaker 1>and then said go tell him. James obviously did not

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<v Speaker 1>take well to this, said, if my dad wants to

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<v Speaker 1>fire me, he can do it himself, threw her out

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<v Speaker 1>of his office. But you know, that moment, I think

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<v Speaker 1>is so indicative of the way that this family operates,

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<v Speaker 1>because it really poisoned the relationship between Liz and James

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<v Speaker 1>for a long time. And one of the things that

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<v Speaker 1>Liz told me is that she really regrets. It's actually,

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<v Speaker 1>she said, one of the greatest regrets of her life

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<v Speaker 1>that she allowed her desire for her father's approval to

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<v Speaker 1>poison her relationship with her brother.

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<v Speaker 2>And it is very rare for Murdoch children to speak

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<v Speaker 2>publicly about their family litt alone to do so critically,

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<v Speaker 2>but James has done that a number of times now,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think most famously for Australians that happened when

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<v Speaker 2>he called out News Corp for their failure to link

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<v Speaker 2>the bushfires that we had here in twenty nineteen to

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<v Speaker 2>climate change. So how significant have these moments been in

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<v Speaker 2>the fracturing of James's relationship with Rupert.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there's no question that there's been kind of a

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<v Speaker 1>succession of moments where James decided to kind of go

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<v Speaker 1>off script, right break from the family talking points and

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<v Speaker 1>say what he believed publicly. And it really has only

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<v Speaker 1>happened a handful of times, but that was enough for

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<v Speaker 1>Rupert to feel that his son was not loyal in

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<v Speaker 1>the way that he should be. You know, at one point,

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<v Speaker 1>after the neo Nazi march in Charlottesville, Virginia, James put

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<v Speaker 1>out a statement without clearing it with the company. This

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<v Speaker 1>is when he was an executive at News Corp. And

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<v Speaker 1>Fox said that you know that he disagreed with it,

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<v Speaker 1>that it was you know, terrible, and that was seen

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<v Speaker 1>as him going off script. The bush fires episode was

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<v Speaker 1>another one these handful of episodes kind of go against

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<v Speaker 1>one of the Cardinal Murdoch family rules, which is that

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<v Speaker 1>you never talk about the family outside the family. And

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<v Speaker 1>James's willingness to do that even just a handful of

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<v Speaker 1>times and now in pretty you know, great detail with me,

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<v Speaker 1>I think shows why he and his father were probably

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<v Speaker 1>never destined to be able to work together in running

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<v Speaker 1>the family business.

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<v Speaker 2>And do you think that when he does do this,

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<v Speaker 2>do you think that this is born out of a

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<v Speaker 2>sense of guilt or a genuine desire to try and

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<v Speaker 2>affect change.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, he told me about early twenty seventeen, when

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<v Speaker 1>he and his brother were kind of running Fox together,

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<v Speaker 1>the Fox Corporation together, that Donald Trump was elected and

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<v Speaker 1>issued his travel ban for predominantly Muslim countries, and James

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to issue a company wide memo stating clearly that

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<v Speaker 1>they opposed this policy, reassuring their Muslim employees that they

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<v Speaker 1>had their backs, and his brother Lachlin said that he

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<v Speaker 1>wouldn't go along with that. They ended up kind of

0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:22.800
<v Speaker 1>arm wrestling over every line in the statement. It got

0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:26.640
<v Speaker 1>watered down, and I think that James really felt in

0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:30.600
<v Speaker 1>that moment he was being forced to censor himself and

0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:32.959
<v Speaker 1>bite his tongue in a way that he had kind

0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:35.160
<v Speaker 1>of been forced to do over and over and over

0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:38.959
<v Speaker 1>throughout his life. He just doesn't share his father's politics.

0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:42.480
<v Speaker 1>In many ways, he doesn't share his father's worldview. And

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<v Speaker 1>part of the reason he is now speaking out is, yes,

0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:49.240
<v Speaker 1>he wants to give his side of the story. Yes

0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:51.439
<v Speaker 1>he wants to set the record straight. But I think

0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:53.920
<v Speaker 1>there's also an element of almost kind of atonement in

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<v Speaker 1>all of this. He might disagree with that characterization, but

0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:00.840
<v Speaker 1>I think he does feel like he owes it to

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<v Speaker 1>the world to kind of tell the truth about what

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<v Speaker 1>he saw, and you know, obviously, as a journalist, I

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<v Speaker 1>think that's a good thing.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll be back with part two with McKay coppins on

0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:20.160
<v Speaker 2>the mind games and manipulations of the family court trial

0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:23.200
<v Speaker 2>and the future of the Murdock media empire.

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<v Speaker 1>And the lawyer kind of spent multiple hours just firing

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<v Speaker 1>these questions at James that were really kind of disdainful

0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:35.360
<v Speaker 1>and withering. They were questions like, have you ever done

0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:38.800
<v Speaker 1>anything successful on your own? And why don't you take

0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:42.280
<v Speaker 1>responsibility for your actions? And why didn't you call your

0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:44.960
<v Speaker 1>father on his ninetieth birthday and things like that.

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<v Speaker 2>You can find that in your feed now