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Speaker 1: This episode contains discussion of suicide.

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Speaker 2: If this raises any issues for you, support is available

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Speaker 2: through the links and phone numbers in the show notes.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to this special edition of Headgame. I'm at Middleton.

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Speaker 1: I've had the opportunity to speak with some amazing people

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Speaker 1: over more than a hundred episodes. Today we're taking a

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Speaker 1: look back at the people who made the news and

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Speaker 1: reported on the news. Shortly, journalist Chong Lai takes us

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Speaker 1: inside the Chinese prison where she spent close to three

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Speaker 1: years after being accused of espionage. But first, we know

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Speaker 1: Julie Goodwin as a smiling chef who won the season

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Speaker 1: of Master Chef Australia, authored numerous cookbooks and made many

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Speaker 1: TV appearances over the years. Despite that beaming smile, we

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Speaker 1: saw on camera Judy was suffering in silence as anxiety

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Speaker 1: and depression took hold. You take on Master Chef. Not

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Speaker 1: only do you take on Master Chef Judy, but you

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Speaker 1: you know, the nation falls in love with you. Live,

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Speaker 1: you become this mother to everyone and then you go

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Speaker 1: and win it. What was that feeling like? Were you

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Speaker 1: ready for the aftermath of being projected into the limelight.

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Speaker 3: No, no one can be ready for that. That was

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Speaker 3: It was such a it was so weird. I mean,

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Speaker 3: if you sort of start with the premise that we've

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Speaker 3: been locked away for five months, over five months not

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Speaker 3: out in public, not really seeing little bits of what

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Speaker 3: was going on in the newspaper and stuff when we

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Speaker 3: managed to have time to look at the newspaper and

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Speaker 3: so forth, but until we got out of that house.

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Speaker 3: And it was two weeks between the finale being filmed

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Speaker 3: and it going to air. It's a lot longer now.

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Speaker 3: Back then it was only two and a half weeks. No,

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Speaker 3: I had no idea what was waiting for me on

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Speaker 3: the outside, had no idea, And it was quite surreal.

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Speaker 3: It was quite surreal. And I'll never forget the day

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Speaker 3: when I kind of had a feeling of something, something

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Speaker 3: really quite big and oddest happening here is. I was

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Speaker 3: walking down the street and I just heard joy and

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Speaker 3: I turned around and it was a road crew. It

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Speaker 3: was these big guys in high views. And then you know,

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Speaker 3: my kids were coming home. My oldest son, God love him,

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Speaker 3: was coming home from school and he had had this

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Speaker 3: meticulously kept handwritten list that he showed me and he said,

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Speaker 3: these are all the people who want to come over

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Speaker 3: for dinner, and it's like every person who'd made a

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Speaker 3: joke to him. There was teachers on the list. I'm

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Speaker 3: just like Joe, I can't have all these and he's like, oh,

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Speaker 3: but they really want to come. So it was just

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Speaker 3: it was so surreal.

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Speaker 1: How did you prepare on the move and how did

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Speaker 1: you manage on the move or did you manage on

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Speaker 1: the move?

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Speaker 4: Well?

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Speaker 1: Think we did. We like to think we do.

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Speaker 3: You know, maybe over time I could look back and

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Speaker 3: see that I didn't always make the best decisions. So

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Speaker 3: there was a lot coming at me fast, a lot

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Speaker 3: of opportunities, a lot of and like, I want to

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Speaker 3: preface this by saying that the things that have come

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Speaker 3: out of Master Chef have been ninety nine point nine

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Speaker 3: percent amazingly positive and beautiful, and I will never stop

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Speaker 3: being grateful or pinching myself that that happened, because it's

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Speaker 3: been wonderful. But there were things that I didn't manage

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Speaker 3: as well as I should have. And one of those

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Speaker 3: was the decision making around what to take on and

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Speaker 3: what to not take on because I had fear.

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Speaker 1: And you're talking of opportunities.

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Speaker 3: Here, Yeah, so if I don't take this on board now.

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Speaker 3: I mean in twelve months time, this could all be over.

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Speaker 3: Need to make hay while the sunshines. I need to

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Speaker 3: take it while you can, take it while you can,

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Speaker 3: and then I can live out my days in some

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Speaker 3: kind of peaceful you know, bliss and think, gosh, wasn't

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Speaker 3: that an interesting time? Well, sixteen years.

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Speaker 1: On it, I've had that mindset.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so you know exactly what I'm saying. So I

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Speaker 3: took on way too much and you can only do

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Speaker 3: everything for so often. And again, in the writing of

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Speaker 3: this book, I look back at my calendar, like my

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Speaker 3: Outlook calendar from that time, and how the days were

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Speaker 3: broken down into these tiny little chunks of all the

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Speaker 3: different deadlines and the recipes and the columns, and the

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Speaker 3: appearances and the interviews and the travel and all those things.

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Speaker 3: There was no category for self care, there was no

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Speaker 3: category for downtime. Family barely featured in that calendar. It

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Speaker 3: was get from here, there, do this, do that?

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Speaker 1: That family element. All of a sudden, you know, they

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Speaker 1: come and it's called a spade, But they come second best,

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Speaker 1: don't they. It's like it's it's all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: it's like take it. It's there to take. It was

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Speaker 1: that this is going to benefit.

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Speaker 3: I'll always be there, So you take them for granted, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you take them.

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Speaker 1: It's a tough one, isn't it. And a lot of

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Speaker 1: people don't realize that is that you are actually know

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Speaker 1: the sacrifices that you make, right or wrong in order

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Speaker 1: to have this successful life can be at the difference

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Speaker 1: sometimes well.

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Speaker 3: And the truth of the matter is that at the

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Speaker 3: end of those days or those weeks when I've been

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Speaker 3: away and certainly further down the track when I opened

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Speaker 3: a cooking school and I was on breakfast radio all

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Speaker 3: at the same time, what I had left at the

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Speaker 3: end of the day when I went home to my

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Speaker 3: family was nothing, nothing, whatsoever. They got the least of me,

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Speaker 3: They got the worst of me. I couldn't smile, I

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Speaker 3: couldn't make a joke. I couldn't provide for them anything

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Speaker 3: that I was supposed to provide because I had nothing left.

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Speaker 3: There was nothing left in my tank at the end

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Speaker 3: of each and every day. So you know, for me now,

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Speaker 3: I'm back to color coding my calendar and I look

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Speaker 3: at it every day and make sure that there's balance

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Speaker 3: and the categories in there. My mental health and my

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Speaker 3: family are the two most important things in that calendar.

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Speaker 3: And if they're not dominating that calendar, then I start

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Speaker 3: dropping things off.

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Speaker 1: And when did you realize after this Master Chef moment,

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Speaker 1: you've got all these TV shows, you've got a cooking school.

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Speaker 1: When did When was the moment you realize that you

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Speaker 1: were taking on too much and that you know you

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Speaker 1: were close, if not to burn out? Oh I hit burnout.

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Speaker 3: I I wasn't great at reading the signals that my

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Speaker 3: brain was sending me that it was all too much.

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Speaker 3: I eventually went to a GP who you know. I

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Speaker 3: got a diagnosis of anxiety and depression, went on medications.

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Speaker 1: There a moment that you came back and you thought

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Speaker 1: I need help.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, there was, But it wasn't. It wasn't me

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Speaker 3: that recognized the moment. It is no, it wasn't me

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Speaker 3: that was.

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Speaker 1: So engulfed in this world that you can't see outside

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Speaker 1: of it. You don't not until someone.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, I guess I found myself back where

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Speaker 3: I was in year twelve.

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Speaker 1: And talk about doing the full circle. So you've done

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Speaker 1: it and in the reverse this time, you know you've

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Speaker 1: done it in a full time to be where you

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Speaker 1: are today, So you felt yourself going back to you

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Speaker 1: don't want to be here.

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Speaker 3: I had nothing left. I just had nothing left, and

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Speaker 3: I had in my head because it's sickness, right, severe

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Speaker 3: depression is a serious illness, and it's a life threatening illness.

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Speaker 3: And my life was threatened by it. And I couldn't

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Speaker 3: stop what I was doing. I couldn't stop because in

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Speaker 3: my head, well, who else can do the Rabbit and

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Speaker 3: Julie Goodwhen radio show if I don't turn up every morning?

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Speaker 3: And who else can run Julie's place cooking school? I remember,

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Speaker 3: Bloody name was on it. I what a mistake. And

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Speaker 3: you know, so I was going home at night. The

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Speaker 3: only I could shut off my brain late at night

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Speaker 3: was to drink wine. So I was doing too much

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Speaker 3: of that. So I was self medicating. And that's a terrible,

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Speaker 3: terrible way to sleep, because you wake up with your

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Speaker 3: heart hammering and it just all becomes this massive, you know,

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Speaker 3: self fulfilling prophecy. And I went, I went right down

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Speaker 3: to the bottom of the well. And I had made

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Speaker 3: a decision that everybody, everybody, my colleagues, my children, my husband,

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Speaker 3: my family, everybody would be better off if I just

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Speaker 3: racked off and let them all be. And that was

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Speaker 3: the decision that I made, and that was the action

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Speaker 3: I was taking. And I was stumbled upon by a

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Speaker 3: couple of strangers who recognized that I was a person

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Speaker 3: that needed some company, and they sat with me, and

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Speaker 3: I was executing a plan.

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Speaker 1: If it's no, it's okay.

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Speaker 3: This is why you know. This is why I wrote

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Speaker 3: the book, and because what I want is for people

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Speaker 3: to recognize the earlier signs before they get to this point.

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Speaker 3: So when you say, when did you know I was

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Speaker 3: nearly dead when I found out that I needed help,

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Speaker 3: I was sitting on the edge of Brisbane water and

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Speaker 3: I was I was ready. I was just trying to

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Speaker 3: figure out what to do with my shoes. I didn't

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Speaker 3: know what to do with my shoes, and I was

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Speaker 3: trying to figure that out when this young couple came

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Speaker 3: up and recognized how distressed I was and said, do

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Speaker 3: you look like you need some company? And they just

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Speaker 3: sat with me for a couple of hours.

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Speaker 1: I really just passed passing by. No, you didn't say.

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Speaker 3: Hell, I passed me by, And they turned around and

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Speaker 3: came back and said, you look like you need some company,

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Speaker 3: And so they just sat with me for a couple

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Speaker 3: of hours and took to me. They had their dog

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Speaker 3: with them, you know dogs.

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Speaker 1: They knew, they knew.

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Speaker 3: That, they knew, Yeah, they absolutely knew.

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Speaker 1: They thought, if we leave this lady alone, she's not

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Speaker 1: going to be here. Yep, And you weren't.

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Speaker 3: And and eventually I said, I'm going to be all

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Speaker 3: right now. I'm going to call my husband. And when

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Speaker 3: I told him what had happened, he took me straight

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Speaker 3: to the hospital. And then I became a client of

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Speaker 3: the mental health system, and that's what I remained for

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Speaker 3: quite a long time. I was in and out of

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Speaker 3: hospital five times.

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Speaker 1: So you're you're you're in the height of your career.

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Speaker 1: You've got everything going on for you. Anyone looking from

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Speaker 1: the outside and would be like, she's made it, she's

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Speaker 1: a successful But they can't look at the inside out,

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Speaker 1: can they?

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Speaker 3: Anyone listening to me on the radio would have had

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Speaker 3: zero ida zero because that was the strength of some

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Speaker 3: parts of my brain, was to be able to completely compartmentalize.

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Speaker 3: And I've been doing that my whole life, haven't I.

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Speaker 3: And I used to say to my colleague, you know,

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Speaker 3: because we used to say six or nine is the

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Speaker 3: show zone, and nothing enters the show zone, and so

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Speaker 3: I would say to him, Oh, got some stuff going on,

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Speaker 3: but I'll put it in the box. I'll put it

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Speaker 3: in the brain box. And when we went on the

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Speaker 3: Christmas break in twenty nineteen, it all just fell apart.

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Speaker 3: When it was time to go back, I was in

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Speaker 3: a mental hospital and I just I said to him,

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to be able to come back when

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Speaker 3: I thought I was coming back, And he said, what happened?

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Speaker 3: And I said, the box broke and he knew exactly exactly.

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Speaker 3: He knew exactly what had happened. And they held my

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Speaker 3: job for as long as they could, and then they

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Speaker 3: had to give it away. And I also had to

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Speaker 3: acknowledge that that job was part of the downhill spiral

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Speaker 3: because it's they're not hours that are conducive to also

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Speaker 3: running a full time hospitality business, which has you up

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Speaker 3: late at night and working weekends. I was literally working

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Speaker 3: seven days a week and I had been doing it

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Speaker 3: for four years.

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Speaker 2: It is not a.

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Speaker 1: Sustainable Candles from both fans and yeah wow, So how

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Speaker 1: did you manage to recover and what was what was

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Speaker 1: the recovery like and the support that you've.

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Speaker 3: Got recovery is ongoing. Because when I first went into hospital,

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Speaker 3: I kind of thought, well, it's like, you know, if

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Speaker 3: you break your leg, your leg heels and you run away,

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Speaker 3: you know. And so when I when it didn't work

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Speaker 3: and I had to go back, I was so angry.

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Speaker 3: I remember going in and just being so angry and

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Speaker 3: saying to them, I did all the things, all the

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Speaker 3: things you said, and I'm not better, So get me

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Speaker 3: better drugs or get me a better doctor. But essentially

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Speaker 3: it was like it was like they'd failed. But what

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Speaker 3: I didn't understand was it's not like a broken leg.

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Speaker 3: What it is like is your car. So you can't

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Speaker 3: put petrol in your car and go, Okay, job done.

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Speaker 3: I never have to do that again. You got to

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Speaker 3: keep putting petrol in your car. You've got to keep

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Speaker 3: taking it to the mechanic and keep it running, you know,

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Speaker 3: and if you don't.

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Speaker 2: It's going to fall apart.

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Speaker 3: Well, your brain is like a car, and there's a

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Speaker 3: lot of there's a lot of practical stuff that needs

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Speaker 3: to be done, physical stuff. It's a laundry list of

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Speaker 3: things that I absolutely have to do to stay well,

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Speaker 3: and that they involve physical activity. All the stuff we know,

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Speaker 3: but once it becomes literally life or death, it gets

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Speaker 3: a lot easier to do because it's like, I will

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Speaker 3: not come back peace with it. I will not go

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Speaker 3: back there. So what I need to do is physical activity.

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Speaker 3: I need to do meditation, I need to see my psychologist.

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Speaker 3: I take medication, and I know not everyone agrees that

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Speaker 3: you should do that, but it has helped me. And

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Speaker 3: while ever I'm in a good place, I'm sticking with

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Speaker 3: what works. Time in nature, time with family, creativity is

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Speaker 3: important to me. So there's a whole bunch of things

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Speaker 3: that I need to do to stay well. And I

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Speaker 3: don't drink anymore. I've stopped alcohol. It's coming up for

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Speaker 3: four years now, and that was one of the hardest

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Speaker 3: parts of the whole bloody thing, probably.

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Speaker 1: One of the main contributing denominators to your mental health.

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Speaker 1: Like you said, even if you have a glass of

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Speaker 1: wine or two at night, you wake up and there's

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Speaker 1: still that tiny bit of brain fall, your heart's still beating,

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 3: But I got to a point where a glass of

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Speaker 3: two never wasn't cutting it. So I just I had

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Speaker 3: to make a very clear decision. And it's the lifestyle

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Speaker 3: and the habits hardest part to break, actually, but you know,

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Speaker 3: and now it's easier. And I would say to anyone

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Speaker 3: who's question whether or not they should maybe he's up

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Speaker 3: a bit on it. Well, if you're asking yourself that question,

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Speaker 3: the answer is probably yes. And b it gets easier.

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Speaker 3: It gets easier. And I can make that promise because

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Speaker 3: you know, I've interacted with now hundreds and hundreds of

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Speaker 3: people who are on that same path, so it does

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Speaker 3: get easier. And now I'm like, I'm completely happy. I'm

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Speaker 3: so happy that I don't have to have that to

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Speaker 3: worry about, as well as all the other crap.

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Speaker 1: When Mike Amore was promoted to US bureau chief for

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Speaker 1: seven News in the year two thousand, he had no

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Speaker 1: idea he would have a front bow seat the story

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Speaker 1: of the century. As two commercial jets plowed into New

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Speaker 1: York's iconic World Trade Center, Mike was on his way

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Speaker 1: out of Manhattan, heading for the airport, convincing the taxi

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Speaker 1: drivers to turn the car around. Mike was the only

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Speaker 1: Australian journalist on the ground as history unfolded.

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Speaker 2: Well Leyton Hewitt had just won the US Open tennis

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Speaker 2: championship that weekend, the previous weekend, so we've been in

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Speaker 2: New York for that. We went out and we drank

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Speaker 2: too much, I'll be honest, was what journos do. So

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Speaker 2: the next day, next morning, we were running late for

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Speaker 2: the airport. We were dusty. We jumped into this cab

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Speaker 2: and the kabby thought we were tourists, and you know,

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Speaker 2: you're not what your cabby's like, they're not in your friendliest.

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Speaker 2: But this guy happened to be super friendly, and he

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Speaker 2: told us he was from Israel. And we drove down

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Speaker 2: trying to get off Manhattan Island towards the airport. It

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Speaker 2: was about eight fifteen I think, and he said, oh,

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Speaker 2: that's the Israeli Consulate. There's always a police car out

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Speaker 2: the front. And with that almost on cue, the police

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Speaker 2: car just lit up its lights and sped off, and

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Speaker 2: he's like, that's unusual. We turned down into one of

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Speaker 2: the tunnels in Manhattan to take us to the airport

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Speaker 2: JFK and we came out of the tunnel and the

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Speaker 2: whole world had changed. My phone because we were talking

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Speaker 2: flip phones back then. It didn't work in the tunnel.

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Speaker 2: It just lit up. Going back into the tunnel going

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Speaker 2: towards Manhattan was every fire truck, ambulance, police card.

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Speaker 1: So you're seeing this visually. So you're just all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, this whole and what's going through your head?

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Speaker 1: Are you confused?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking what's going on here? Because remember we're going

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Speaker 2: away from Manhattan, so the twin towers were behind us.

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Speaker 2: Finally we got a call from a producer in Sydney

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Speaker 2: and said where are you What are you doing? I said, why,

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Speaker 2: what's going on? And they said a plane has hit

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Speaker 2: the World Trades in the tower. I'm like, oh no,

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Speaker 2: that's impossible. And I turned to the look through the

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Speaker 2: rear of the window of the taxi. That kind of

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Speaker 2: framed it almost perfectly. There was the first tower, big hole,

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Speaker 2: smoke starting to come out of it. You can see it.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean it were dominated the skyline

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh my god, a beautiful blue sky.

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Speaker 2: It was vividly, you know, just a beautiful, beautiful day.

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Speaker 2: And they said, well, we're going to get you on.

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Speaker 2: It was late at night in Australia. We're going to

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Speaker 2: get you on. We're going to do a phone cross

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Speaker 2: to you in the cab and we're you know, we're

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Speaker 2: screaming at the cab, can you get us back there?

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Speaker 2: And he's screaming, and he's banging, he's banging, he's in tears,

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Speaker 2: he's banging the wheel. They've come for us here, he said,

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Speaker 2: he obviously thought it was terrorism. Immediately, I'm on the

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Speaker 2: phone ready to do a live cross back to the studio,

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Speaker 2: and I could hear the studio, the control room, and

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Speaker 2: I heard them all scream and oh my god, another

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Speaker 2: one's hit. Look back in the cab. Sure enough, there's

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Speaker 2: a second gaping hole. It was immediately clear this was terrorism.

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Speaker 2: There's no way that that could have happened. And we

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Speaker 2: turned on We're trying to get down back onto Manhattan Island.

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Speaker 2: They were shutting off bridges and tunnels's quick because they

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Speaker 2: could it. They were concerned that this was just the

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Speaker 2: start of attacks. Turned on the radio, you know, there's

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Speaker 2: reports of the Supreme Court, a bomb outside the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 2: The plane assys hit the Pentagon, and other one's gone

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Speaker 2: down in Pennsylvania and another one's going towards the White House.

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Speaker 2: And was like, oh my god, it's the war of

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Speaker 2: the World's like, what on earth is going on here?

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Speaker 2: You know, some of it wasn't true, but a lot

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Speaker 2: of it, too much of it was true. We eventually

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Speaker 2: go right down. I had to circle right down into

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Speaker 2: to get into Manhattan through Harlem. We got down, and

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Speaker 2: we made our way down. Can you imagine it was

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Speaker 2: Mayam made our way down just as the first tower

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Speaker 2: came down. We didn't see it. I couldn't see it.

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Speaker 2: But what I could see it eventually emerging were people

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Speaker 2: just covered in dust. You couldn't see. You couldn't see

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Speaker 2: withere a black, white, Asian whatever, you just could and

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Speaker 2: you could see the terror in their eyes. And we

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Speaker 2: arrived as the dust was starting to billow up and scrambled,

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Speaker 2: grabbed whatever we could from the taxi driver to get

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Speaker 2: us through, and ran into it. And we were there

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Speaker 2: for weeks upon weeks, and I still remember seeing these

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Speaker 2: firefighters coming out of the dus had remained of the

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Speaker 2: World Trade Center, and for some reason, the phone towers,

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Speaker 2: mobile phone towers were on top of the World Trade Center,

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Speaker 2: so they'd come down, so communications it was very difficult

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Speaker 2: primitive time, remember, And for some reason my phone worked

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Speaker 2: just as these firefighters came out, and one asked can

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Speaker 2: I call? And I said, yeah, sure, and he gave

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Speaker 2: him the phone and his partner's wife, he said, he

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Speaker 2: broke down. He said, I've lost so many people today.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. He's in tears, you know, three hundred

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Speaker 2: and something odd firefighters, and then thank me for the call,

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Speaker 2: gave me the phone back, picked up his gear and

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Speaker 2: went straight back in. That's bravery, that is just you know,

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Speaker 2: those guys were still charging into the second tower after

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Speaker 2: the first went I I just cannot imagine. And for

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Speaker 2: days afterwards we could hear their personal alarms beeping. They

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Speaker 2: all wore personal alarms. I don't know if you do

387
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Speaker 2: in the army as well, but in the cases of trauma,

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Speaker 2: they could use those alarms to find them. With those

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Speaker 2: alarms were going off, you could hear it beat all

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Speaker 2: in the rubble, in the rubble, but they never found

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Speaker 2: so many of them, you know, you just could just

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Speaker 2: hear it. I guess I just kept going off until

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Speaker 2: until they ran out of batteries. But you know, so

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Speaker 2: many of those people were never found. It remains parts bits,

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Speaker 2: you know. I mean, it's just terrific.

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Speaker 1: So on on that day, Mike, when you're in when

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Speaker 1: you're in that, you know, talk about sensory overload. What's

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Speaker 1: going through your head as a journalist. And again, you know,

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Speaker 1: probably a very difficult question to answer, but are you

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Speaker 1: thinking I need to report this? Are you thinking I

401
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Speaker 1: need to help? But how do you function?

402
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Speaker 2: What you have to focus on what you can achieve,

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Speaker 2: and that is for me at that stage, was getting

404
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Speaker 2: what was that getting on air? I had to get

405
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Speaker 2: on you gotcha? And again we're talking twenty five years ago.

406
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Speaker 2: So the only way I could get on air was

407
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,960
Speaker 2: to get a satellite, get connected to a satellite. The

408
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 2: only people that had satellites were our NBC CNN affiliates,

409
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,280
Speaker 2: but of course they were chock a block, so I

410
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Speaker 2: had to try and get on air. I was begging

411
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Speaker 2: people I knew, and can I just get five minutes?

412
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Speaker 2: Ten minutes? And I think, I just need to get

413
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Speaker 2: on air. You know, we're recording stuff, but my sole

414
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Speaker 2: focus was to get on air. But I was, again

415
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Speaker 2: HARKing back to port Arthur. I was overwhelmed in another

416
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Speaker 2: way because this was I'm a boyfriend, Indigo, and all

417
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Speaker 2: of a sudden, I'm on the scene of what really

418
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Speaker 2: is still the biggest story of my career. You know,

419
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Speaker 2: this is the first time we've seen something play out

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Speaker 2: like that on TV. And I actually never saw the

421
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Speaker 2: vision for a long time because I remember I was

422
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Speaker 2: scrambling to get there. I didn't see the vision until

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Speaker 2: twelve hours later. But I knew the world had change.

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Speaker 2: It changed your world. It changed my world. Even if

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Speaker 2: you weren't in a journalist or a soldier, it changed

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Speaker 2: your world. It changed the trajectory of world history, wars

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Speaker 2: and terrorist attacks. So yeah, I was overwhelmed, and I

428
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Speaker 2: was I don't mind, I don't mind ammitting it. It

429
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Speaker 2: was unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: The reason why I ask is because I am good

431
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Speaker 1: friends with the second in command of the counter terrorism

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Speaker 1: cell in the CIA when when this happened, and I

433
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Speaker 1: said to him exactly the same question. I said, what

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Speaker 1: do you do? He said, we didn't know what to do.

435
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 1: This was so so advanced, This was so out of

436
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,119
Speaker 1: our remit of you know, what we portrayed as a

437
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 1: terrorist attack that we just we were just like, right,

438
00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,399
Speaker 1: where where do we start? Where do you start with

439
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,879
Speaker 1: something like that? And I suppose it's trying to find

440
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 1: the truth, trying to find out what happened, and then

441
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 1: you can go, hopefully go from the truth and start

442
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,639
Speaker 1: to pick off, you know, the rest of the story

443
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,200
Speaker 1: or the rest of how this transpired.

444
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 2: It was so big. That first day was just so big.

445
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,400
Speaker 2: It's hard to wrap your head around it. Not only

446
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 2: these huge towers, and if people who've seen them would

447
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:27,680
Speaker 2: know how much they dominated, certainly lower Manhattan. It's unfathomable

448
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 2: that they'd come down. I don't know that they even

449
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,199
Speaker 2: thought they'd truly come down, But that was not There

450
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 2: were two towers were part of a collection of like

451
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 2: I think, thirteen buildings. I didn't see the towers come down,

452
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 2: but I saw another building that was part of the

453
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 2: World Trade Center and it was I think sixty stories

454
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,919
Speaker 2: I saw it come down. That to me was just unbelievable.

455
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,680
Speaker 2: It had been cleared by that stage. But then even

456
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 2: think about further the Pentagon being hit, My god, you know,

457
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 2: the symbol of American military was hit. And those brave

458
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 2: people who who sent the plane into the paddock in

459
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 2: Pennsylvania probably going towards the White House. The ramifications at

460
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 2: that stage were like, oh, you probably couldn't even think

461
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,160
Speaker 2: of the next step, and they grounded every plane in America.

462
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 2: Not to mention i'd had a just on a personal note,

463
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 2: I had a fight with my wife now wife then

464
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 2: girlfriend Tracy the night before and hung up in anger

465
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 2: over something stupid. And she got a call to wake

466
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 2: her up in LA and where's Mike. We can't get

467
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 2: onto him. Away's catching a plane or you know, turn

468
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 2: on your TV and there's a plane. And of course

469
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 2: I couldn't. I couldn't call her because my phones weren't

470
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 2: working at you know. So you know, I'm sure my

471
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 2: poor old parents were watching in Bendy Go, thinking what

472
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 2: the fuck is Mike up to? So yeah, all of

473
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 2: that that was going through my mind. And not to

474
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 2: mention that the logistics. And I often say that journalism

475
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 2: in those types go to battlefields and disasters. It's like

476
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 2: a game of survivor, because you not only have to

477
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 2: do the job, you've got to also think about logistics.

478
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 2: You know, You've got to think of where you're going

479
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,199
Speaker 2: to sleep, where you're going to eat, how are you

480
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 2: going to power your read power and recharge your phone,

481
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 2: your batteries. We were stuck in Lower Manhattan for three

482
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 2: or four days before we could get out. I slept

483
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 2: in the cameraman's car the first night. I slept in

484
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 2: the in the entrance to a building on a we

485
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 2: made like a bed out of cardboard boxes. And then

486
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 2: third night we got our own satellite truck and we

487
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 2: slept on the floor of the satellite truck.

488
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:36,679
Speaker 1: I mean.

489
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 2: Again, I don't want sympathy for that, because I chose

490
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,120
Speaker 2: to be there. But that's the kind of challenges you're

491
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 2: facing along the way, and how do we charge our phones?

492
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 2: How do we speak to people when the phones aren't working.

493
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 2: It's yeah, it was mind blne.

494
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: And you did you feel like because you were there,

495
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 1: you had a sense of duty because you know, I

496
00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 1: know a lot of people that were there on the

497
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 1: ground and the first thing done was get as far

498
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 1: as way as possible from the situation. The flights were

499
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 1: grounded and all they were thinking about was getting the

500
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 1: hell out of there. Did that ever come across your mind.

501
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 2: Nah, we were there for a reason. We were there

502
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 2: for a purpose. There are other journalists who got caught

503
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 2: on the other side of the country who couldn't get

504
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 2: to where, who were scrambling in the opposite direction. It's

505
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 2: always kind of yeah, always amazing to me that we're

506
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,439
Speaker 2: seemed to be going in the opposite direction. The traffic

507
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 2: is never bad in the direction we're going, it's always

508
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 2: seems to be bad in the other direction. I find

509
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 2: these things. It's a kind of a I guess, an

510
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 2: unnatural reaction. But yet I never only thought about getting

511
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 2: out of it. I wanted to stay. We were working

512
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 2: around the clock because our six o'clock bulletin I think

513
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 2: was at four am, so we were working around the

514
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 2: clock to try and service everything. The appetite for the

515
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 2: story was unprecedented.

516
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 1: So after that day, how does the story evolve? You know,

517
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 1: the longer that you're there, you start to hear I

518
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 1: suppose this happened, and this happened, and this happened. Are

519
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: you trying to piece that together? Are you? I suppose

520
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 1: you're not just reporting? Are you you're investigating? Are you

521
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: trying to piece the story together? As the days progress?

522
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,440
Speaker 2: It was so big that you know, we were kind

523
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 2: of swept up in the momentum of the story globally.

524
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 2: But as the day went, as the days went, you

525
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 2: kind of you you drill down into elements of it,

526
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 2: you know, like like George W. Bush went to the

527
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 2: ruins and I don't know if you remember that on

528
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 2: the loud hailer, you know, yes, I can hear you,

529
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 2: and soon the people who knock down these buildings will

530
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 2: hear all of us, you know. In other words, they

531
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 2: were going to be ramifications. That was clear. But also

532
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 2: in the days following people started coming up to us,

533
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 2: and the first couple I thought, this is weird, you know,

534
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,719
Speaker 2: like have you seen this person's? Like why are you

535
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 2: asking me? And that became a flood of people. These

536
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 2: people were so des to try and find their loved ones.

537
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 2: You know, they were coming up to average journals because

538
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,479
Speaker 2: they put all these stretches out in hospitals thinking they

539
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 2: were going to get survivors and I don't know that

540
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: they even got one. I think there may be a

541
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 2: couple of people, you know, got out of there, but

542
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 2: just so many people that kind of put a human

543
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 2: face to it. And I think that's important in what

544
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 2: we do numbers. You know, three thousand dead, that's that's

545
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 2: an easy figure. It's not an easy figure, but that's

546
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 2: a figure, right, And these are actual people. So to

547
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 2: be able to put the faces of the of the pain,

548
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 2: what these people were going through, just and again and

549
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 2: again and again. A journo from Australia, you know, please

550
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 2: and we're that desperate. Have you seen them. So that's

551
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 2: kind of how it transpired. And then it rolled into

552
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 2: the aftermath where the likes of yourself, you know, came

553
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 2: into it. After about three or four weeks on the

554
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 2: ground in New York City, we rolled into to Washington,

555
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 2: d C. Where George W. Bush from memory gave a

556
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 2: speech to Congress and it was kind of a call

557
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 2: to war. Really they were going to punish the Taliban,

558
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 2: and that rolled into Iraq and that that kind of

559
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 2: dictated that the next probably four or five years for me,

560
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 2: covering the build up into the war in Afghanistan, which

561
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 2: was pretty quick, and then you know, the going into

562
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 2: into Iraq as well, and you know, the weapons of

563
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 2: mass destruction argument.

564
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 1: Does it take a toll on you? Do you just

565
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 1: not give yourself time to overthink, over analyze. And I

566
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: suppose I do it as a great defense mechanism. You know,

567
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 1: I just keep myself busy. I try not to become

568
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 1: a busy fool, of course, but you know, I find

569
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: that keeping myself busy and keeping myself active and keeping

570
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: myself in the game really helps me just to sort

571
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: of move on to the next task and not forget.

572
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: Like I said before, But you know, to process. I

573
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: suppose I haven't got time to process it, to really

574
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: sink in and have that sort of psychological and emotional

575
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: sort of effect where you know you're drained and you

576
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: can't function.

577
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to push on, and you have to

578
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 2: push on. There's no room for emotions, not to say

579
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 2: you're not feeling it. I remember coming back and we're

580
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 2: away for quite a period of time, and I remember

581
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 2: snapping at my wife, and I think that was as

582
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 2: a result of what happened. But kind of the effects

583
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 2: of what I saw that day really didn't impact me

584
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 2: until much later. Like, I find it really hard to

585
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 2: watch that vision now. I find it. When I went

586
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 2: back to New York for other reasons, I found the sirens,

587
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 2: which are almost constant in New York City of police sirens.

588
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 2: I found that quite triggering. I still can't those beeping

589
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 2: sounds of the firefighters. How do we cope? I you know,

590
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 2: we kind of meet at the bar, and I guess

591
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 2: alcohol becomes a bit of a I don't think we're

592
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 2: problem drinkers, but we'd you know, we'd sit around and

593
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 2: you know, natter about stuff and you know.

594
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 1: Joke, you have a good Yeah, we've done the same

595
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 1: in the military. You know, as soon as we got

596
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: off of operations and we had a bit of our

597
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: and r you know, we'd go and get tattoos and

598
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: you know, and and and drink drink booze. I remember,

599
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: you know, every time I got back from a six

600
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: month deployment or any type of sort of operational deployment,

601
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 1: my wife just used to leave a couple of hundred

602
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: pounds on the side. So I go into the house,

603
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: drop my bags off, grab the couple of hundred pounds

604
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: which was on the kitchen side, and you know that'd

605
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: be me for two three days with the guys, just

606
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 1: you know, just having a bit of a bit of

607
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: a sort of pers Yeah, do you compress and then

608
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: you know you're back in it. And it's it's it

609
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: does work. And I suppose you know, I'm not saying

610
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: if it's right or wrong, you know it's but it

611
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 1: does work for us to be able to go back

612
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 1: into that high pressured in vironment cooker where you're just

613
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: going to face it all again.

614
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:08,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I guess from my perspective, we just had

615
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 2: to keep rolling. You know, everything was moving so fast,

616
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 2: and at that stage I was only correspondent the network

617
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 2: had in America, so I was responsible for everything. So

618
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 2: while September eleven and the aftermath was happening, there are

619
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 2: other stuff that was going on as well, so we

620
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 2: just had to keep moving. I guess that's how we coked.

621
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: When Chung Lei returned to China from Australia to start

622
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: her journalism career, she was excited to immerse herself back

623
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 1: into her native culture whilst developing her broadcast skill set.

624
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 1: But in August twenty twenty, her world was turned upside

625
00:33:56,120 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: down when Chinese authorities detained her on quote suspicion of

626
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: illegally supplying state secrets overseas. So take me back to

627
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 1: that moment when everything just sort of went wrong, when

628
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 1: you realize that you know you are now in the

629
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 1: hands of a government being accused of absolutely horrendous things.

630
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 1: How did it transpire from you being at work to

631
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,240
Speaker 1: all of a sudden being behind bars.

632
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 5: So many people ask me about that moment or that day,

633
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 5: but it is not an instantaneous realization because you still

634
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 5: have all these hopes and all these wrong ideas that

635
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 5: things can be fixed. That it's a mistake that if

636
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 5: you're honest and tell them the truth. Nothing bad will happen,

637
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 5: and you will get a phone call and you will

638
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 5: be able to see the embassy right away, and you

639
00:34:56,080 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 5: can get a lawyer and all these silly, name held ideas.

640
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 5: And it wasn't until a month or two later, when

641
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 5: all those hopes were dashed, that I really realized that

642
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,240
Speaker 5: I was cooked. As my son would.

643
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 1: Say, when did reality kick in that actually, you know

644
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 1: things have got extremely bad, extremely ugly, and that that

645
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 1: you know you have been cooked and deep fried? Was

646
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 1: there a moment of bomb in your head of I'm

647
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 1: not going to get out of this situation.

648
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 5: It's like falling or it's like quicksand, and there is

649
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 5: no one to help you, no avenue of redress. And

650
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 5: you start to question everything that you ever believed about

651
00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 5: civil liberty, about human rights, and give up any idea

652
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 5: that someone something can help you. And and actually, once

653
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:16,800
Speaker 5: you hit bottom, then you actually can bounce back.

654
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's only one way up. When you hit the bottom,

655
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 1: you look at the situation, you think it can't get

656
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: any worse, so I can only go up from here.

657
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,359
Speaker 1: That that takes a certain mindset to think like that.

658
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 1: But when you said that you were by yourself. I

659
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 1: suppose because you were telling the truth, because you were,

660
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: you know, giving them everything they need, and all of

661
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 1: a sudden, all of that counted for nothing. So what

662
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: have what have you got? Who have you got? Did

663
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 1: you really feel like that you were by yourself and

664
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 1: that no one could come in and save you?

665
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:50,359
Speaker 4: That's right, I was waiting for you. And also where

666
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 4: was your black hole helicopter?

667
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 2: And I needed to there?

668
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 1: We go listen. It's because I'm from the UK. If

669
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 1: I was Australian, then I might have I might have

670
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:01,319
Speaker 1: apped it down and got you out.

671
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 5: Having meant that helicopter's unallowed in Beiji.

672
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 1: Were there you go listen, I would have found another

673
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 1: way to get you. Don't worry about that. So when

674
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 1: were things really really bad? Because you were cohersed into,

675
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 1: you know, admitting that you admit into a five year sentence,

676
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 1: and I suppose that at this time you just want

677
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 1: this situation, this nightmare, to end, so you're probably agreeing

678
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 1: to absolutely everything. How did that look on a day

679
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 1: to day basis? And how did they manage to to

680
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 1: actually coherse you to say that you're guilty in some way,

681
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 1: shape or form, and that you've got to do five

682
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:39,280
Speaker 1: years in prison.

683
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 5: Well, the five years actually occurred a year later, a

684
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 5: year and two months later when I signed a leniency

685
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:51,800
Speaker 5: agreement with the prosecutor and my lawyer's present. But leading

686
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,359
Speaker 5: up to that, the first six months in what they

687
00:37:54,520 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 5: call RSDL residential surveillance at a designated location. That's system

688
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 5: of torture aimed at belittling.

689
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 1: You, erasing, breaking you down.

690
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:12,399
Speaker 4: Yes, and you mentioned isolation. That's right.

691
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 5: I felt I was under a rock, away from everything,

692
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 5: away from the living world, and yet I was guarded

693
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 5: constantly by two people. And there are people sometimes online

694
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 5: who say, oh, that could never have happened, that's impossible,

695
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,240
Speaker 5: but oh, yes, that does happen.

696
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,320
Speaker 4: Some people stuck to me, one.

697
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 5: To my ride, one in front of me at all times,

698
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 5: three pairs of young.

699
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 4: Guards just watching me every moment.

700
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's observation on you twenty four to seven. You know,

701
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 1: they're watching your every movement. It's almost like a death

702
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 1: by a thousand cuts. You know, they're slowly grinding you down.

703
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 1: They're making you more and more isolated. That's what they do.

704
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: That makes you more and more isolated. They make you

705
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 1: think like that you're losing your mind, and then then

706
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 1: when you're most vulnerable, that's when that's when they attack,

707
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 1: because all you want to do is for this nightmare

708
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 1: to end. I get it. I know the tactics. I

709
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 1: know exactly what they do, and I can sit here

710
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: and say that they do do that, so I know

711
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 1: that for a fact. It's a way of grinding you

712
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,840
Speaker 1: down to extract information from you why this is happening.

713
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: Are you Are you trying to reach out to people

714
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: to maybe get out of the country. Are you reaching

715
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 1: out to the Australian embassy? What are you sort of

716
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: working in the background to try and get out of there?

717
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,479
Speaker 1: Or you just playing ball because in your eyes, you're

718
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 1: not guilty and you know it's been a mistake and

719
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 1: they're going to let you out. What's going through your head?

720
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 1: Are you planning stuff? What's going on?

721
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,479
Speaker 4: I couldn't see anyone. I had nothing of my own.

722
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:56,280
Speaker 4: I was in an.

723
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 1: Utterly no passport, nothing, no.

724
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 5: I was in an utterly barren sell in a secret

725
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 5: location in Beiji, and my family couldn't contact me. Under

726
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 5: the Bilateral Consular Agreement, the embassy could visit me once

727
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,360
Speaker 5: for thirty minutes every month, but It is a heavily

728
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 5: monitored event, with a translator taking down my comments, video

729
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:28,240
Speaker 5: cameras and officers surrounding me. Just in case I mentioned

730
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 5: anything about the case, even the word case. If I

731
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 5: said case, they would they would stop the visit and they.

732
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 4: Would warn you.

733
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 5: You lose privileges to visits if you if you say

734
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 5: anything about the case.

735
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: And what were they accusing you of doing or of being?

736
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,320
Speaker 1: We know they're accusing you of espionage, but at what level?

737
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: What details were they throwing at you? And how did

738
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 1: that look?

739
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:56,720
Speaker 5: Well, basically, they operate on a suspect and arrest first,

740
00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 5: find a story.

741
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 4: Sort of next kind of mode of operation.

742
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:10,240
Speaker 5: And they they said they started surveiling me in April

743
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 5: because I was in frequent contact with foreign journalists, which

744
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 5: is a joke, because I've always been in frequent contact

745
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 5: with foreign journalists, and as a foreign journalist in China,

746
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:21,720
Speaker 5: why can't I be in frequent cocklag?

747
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. So that's ridiculous, and it just so happens.

748
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 5: It happened a few days after the Australian then Foreign

749
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:34,720
Speaker 5: Minister called for an independent investigation into the source of COVID,

750
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,760
Speaker 5: which is aimed at China, and China is super touchy

751
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 5: about that topic. So surveillance on myself and I know

752
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 5: of at least another Australian started around that time and

753
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 5: they eventually rested me in August. And to this day,

754
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,360
Speaker 5: I'm trying to figure out why then, why not before?

755
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,839
Speaker 5: And the so called you know, leaking state secret if

756
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 5: happened in May, and that's only because during their raid

757
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,800
Speaker 5: of my apartment they found a copy of the Premier's

758
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 5: Work Report, which is kind of like the National budget.

759
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 5: I guess the Premier actually read out that document at.

760
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 4: Nine point thirty that day, May twenty second. But the

761
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 4: accusation was.

762
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 5: That I broke the bargo of seven thirty am that

763
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 5: morning by sharing eight words of it with my friend

764
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 5: at Bloomberg.

765
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 4: At Blueberg being an American organization, that's that's a crime.

766
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 5: And the thing is the seven point thirty in bargo

767
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 5: time is not set out on the document.

768
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 4: Nobody knew there was an embargo time.

769
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 5: And this document saying you know the embargo type of

770
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 5: seven thirty was made up a year later because the

771
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 5: prosecutor said, hang on, you guys don't have a case

772
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 5: unless you have this document. So that went to a

773
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:06,360
Speaker 5: different ministry to make up this document.

774
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 1: Wow, when did they start pushing sort of like the

775
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 1: guilty please saying, look, if you accept this prison sentence,

776
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 1: then we charge you for this and not this. So

777
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:19,800
Speaker 1: I know what they do. They'd like to think that

778
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 1: they give you a lesser sentence and you admit that

779
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: you're guilty to lesser charges, et cetera, et cetera. When

780
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: did that come into play and when did you agree

781
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 1: to take the five year prison sentence.

782
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 5: Well, they went through in those six months, they went

783
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 5: through every text on my phone, They went through all.

784
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 4: Of my electronics, of course, and that was all they

785
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 4: could stick on me.

786
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 5: So they made me sign a confession and record confessions

787
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 5: or video saying that I was guilty of this crime.

788
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 5: And in the next phase, which went to prosecution, they

789
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 5: started to get some of the other documents needed, like

790
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:07,879
Speaker 5: testimonials from my colleagues, coerced and false I should say

791
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 5: to say that they had told me it was a classified.

792
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 4: Document which is BS.

793
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:21,879
Speaker 5: And they also arrested my friend hayes Van and got

794
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:27,799
Speaker 5: the testimonial for her. So I think they suspected me

795
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 5: of some Maybe they thought that I was really a spy.

796
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 5: And then when they found that I wasn't there was

797
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 5: no way they could go back on it, and they

798
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 5: had to.

799
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 1: Ye they were too far in it.

800
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 4: Yep, it would have been a big loss of face.

801
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 5: So they had to pin something on me, and there

802
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,840
Speaker 5: happened to be this document that they found on my desk,

803
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 5: and that was that.

804
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 2: Wow.

805
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 1: And I suppose for you to take a five year

806
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 1: sentence as well. I can only imagine during that time

807
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 1: that you know, the numbers of twenty years, thirty years

808
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 1: were being thrown around to you and lifetime in prison

809
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 1: because you know five years is a long time, and

810
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 1: for you to then go, do you know what, I'm

811
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 1: going to take the five years because it's not the

812
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:19,720
Speaker 1: thirty years or the lifetime sentence that they've been talking

813
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 1: about for the last year and a half or six

814
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 1: months or whatever it may be. I know their tricks, right,

815
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: So you were leieved in a way when they say, look,

816
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 1: we'll give you five years if you sign this. Yeah,

817
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 1: I was absolutely.

818
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 4: I was asked.

819
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 5: Actually I was told that this was rock bottom price

820
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 5: and that I should be grateful because you know, somebody

821
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 5: else wouldn't have got this.

822
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:46,839
Speaker 4: So I had to thank the prosecutor.

823
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,800
Speaker 5: I had to thank everyone and pretend that this was wonderful,

824
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 5: that I was only losing five years of my life.

825
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:58,799
Speaker 5: But in a way, again you would know about the psychology.

826
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 4: The curtain t is very soothing.

827
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 1: You know exactly what you need to do. Now you're

828
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:07,320
Speaker 1: not left in in the yet you're not left in limbo.

829
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 1: You know you exactly so you can go right. You

830
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: know what I know I need to do five years,

831
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 1: and five years in China means five years, right.

832
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 5: With state security cases, they don't do sentence reductions.

833
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 1: So do you get transferred once you once you agree

834
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 1: to this, which again I talk about the death by

835
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 1: a thousand carts. You know they're one you. They've obviously

836
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 1: broken you down. I know it all too well. And

837
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden you sign this documentation. Is

838
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 1: there a transfer over from your isolated sort of observation

839
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:40,760
Speaker 1: cell into a into a proper prison.

840
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 5: Well, for the first six months I was in the

841
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 5: isolated cell with the two guards watching me at all times,

842
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 5: and then I was transferred to detention, which is just

843
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,760
Speaker 5: in the same facility. But I had three cell mates,

844
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 5: so that helped a great deal, and I never went

845
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:01,840
Speaker 5: to a proper prison. But I wouldn't liked to have

846
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,800
Speaker 5: gone because it would have meant I could see the sky,

847
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 5: a more sun, and more people to talk to, all

848
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 5: things to do. Yeah.

849
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: Absolutely, So basically you you were like kept in isolation.

850
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 1: You probably kept away from the general public, from the

851
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,840
Speaker 1: general prisons because you probably had more access to things.

852
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 1: And you know, they just wanted to keep you silent

853
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 1: and keep you away from the public eye, keep you,

854
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,839
Speaker 1: you know, keep you away from you having any sort

855
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 1: of any any way of getting a message out or

856
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 1: or you know, becoming this this you know Ozzie stuck

857
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 1: in you know, in prison in China and then for

858
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 1: the pressure to be put on the government. Are you

859
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 1: still communicating and are you still having your monthly visits

860
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:49,360
Speaker 1: with the with an Australian embassy officials.

861
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,879
Speaker 5: I had them set for the few months that they

862
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 5: stopped because of.

863
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 1: COVID, and and how how do they go? How how

864
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,120
Speaker 1: did you feel any hope from from the Australian to

865
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,240
Speaker 1: see that things would change?

866
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:07,320
Speaker 5: No, because at the time the Australian government had changed

867
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 5: and the relationship was the worst they had ever been.

868
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 5: So what they what the consular officers could do for me,

869
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 5: was trying to pass me books that my family had

870
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 5: dropped by the embassy, try to ask how my physical

871
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 5: conditions were, and listen to my latest store of innate jokes.

872
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 5: And because that was the only chance, like thirty minutes

873
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:36,840
Speaker 5: for thirty days, the only chance.

874
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 4: To speak to people who addressed me by name.

875
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 5: Otherwise I was just a number yep, And I could

876
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 5: speak English again the only time and speak to people

877
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 5: who knew me as a person, not as a prisoner.

878
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 4: And everyone was.

879
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 5: Quite nervous, you know, they were concerned if they said

880
00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 5: something wrong, I would get, you know, backlash, and I

881
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 5: was afraid I would lose the visits. And they made

882
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 5: it so gratoritiously cruel that even though they came to

883
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 5: the detention center and did seven COVID tests, the visits

884
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:14,720
Speaker 5: were still done by.

885
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:17,359
Speaker 4: Video link, so they were just in the next room.

886
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 5: But we had to wear masks and I had to

887
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 5: sit in this restraint chair and they couldn't even show

888
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 5: me the smiles.

889
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 4: I could only read the warmth in their eyes. And

890
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 4: that's how cruel they are.

891
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: What does it look like on a day to day

892
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 1: for you? Did you structure a routine in your head

893
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 1: that you stuck to or was it just you just

894
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 1: surviving every day as it came. How did your day

895
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 1: to day life look while you were in prison in China?

896
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 5: I guess I just had this plan that if I'm

897
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:51,360
Speaker 5: a prisoner, I'm going to be the hardest working prisoner,

898
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 5: and I would start the day with a lot of

899
00:49:55,760 --> 00:50:01,359
Speaker 5: app crunches and yoga positions, and I would I did

900
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 5: a lot of push ups. There were only very think

901
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 5: cloth shoes or slippers and no bras, so I couldn't

902
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 5: do cardio.

903
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 4: But I was always trying to jog on the spot.

904
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 5: Doing punches in the air and burpies lunges.

905
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 4: I was trying to learn languages.

906
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:28,800
Speaker 5: And also recite, memorize a lot of things as a

907
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:33,800
Speaker 5: sort of mental aerobics. So while I was exercising, I

908
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 5: would be trying to exercise.

909
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 4: My brain as well. And that's that's you know.

910
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 5: When I read that chapter in your book about the

911
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 5: mind and the body working, that is so spotter, because

912
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 5: you can't have one working as a stroll.

913
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 4: Element and not happy other.

914
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 1: That's what they need to sing together. Yes, absolutely exactly.

915
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 1: How did my book end in your prison cell all

916
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 1: the way in China?

917
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 5: I really wanted to read English books because everything was

918
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 5: in Chinese and.

919
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 4: It really was a comfort to read things in English.

920
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:21,320
Speaker 5: So my partner at the time, Nick, would buy whatever

921
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:26,240
Speaker 5: was in the bookstores, and also what he thought would

922
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 5: be helpful to me, like prison memoirs, like books about

923
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 5: facing adversity, about mental resilience like your book. And I

924
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 5: remember my cell mate reading your book and saying, oh wow,

925
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 5: there are all these wonderful ways you could use the

926
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 5: F word.

927
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 1: If you want to listen to any of these interviews

928
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 1: in full, I'll put the links in the show notes.

929
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 1: I'm at Middleton. Catch you in the next episode.