1
00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:04,960
Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

2
00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:08,119
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never

3
00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:11,160
Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

4
00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:14,080
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

5
00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:16,280
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

6
00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:20,600
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

7
00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,200
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

8
00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,480
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

9
00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:28,840
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

10
00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,560
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

11
00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,680
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

12
00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,720
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

13
00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,559
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

14
00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,360
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. On I

15
00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,280
Speaker 1: Catch Killers, we'd like to look at crime from all perspectives.

16
00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:55,200
Speaker 1: As a cop, I tried fighting crime with a gun

17
00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,960
Speaker 1: and handcuffs. Since leaving the police, I've found there are

18
00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,240
Speaker 1: other ways to fight crime. Today's guest looks at crime

19
00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,040
Speaker 1: a bit differently, not just because of his beliefs, but

20
00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:09,640
Speaker 1: because of the position he holds. See today's guest, Shane Rattenbury,

21
00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:13,000
Speaker 1: is not only a politician, he also holds a position

22
00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:17,880
Speaker 1: of significant power as the Act's attorney General. For those

23
00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:20,039
Speaker 1: that don't know the role of an attorney general, it

24
00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:22,440
Speaker 1: could be said the Attorney General is the highest law

25
00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,839
Speaker 1: officer in the state. That position comes with immense responsibilities

26
00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:29,679
Speaker 1: and powers, and today we're going to look at fighting

27
00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:33,640
Speaker 1: crime from an interesting perspective. Shane is an interesting character

28
00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,480
Speaker 1: and is true to his beliefs, as demonstrated in his

29
00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,840
Speaker 1: activities as a green Peace activist. He has some amazing

30
00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,200
Speaker 1: stories from those times. Today we're going to find out

31
00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,039
Speaker 1: who Shane Rattenbury is and get his thoughts on a

32
00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,560
Speaker 1: whole range of things, including how he thinks is the

33
00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,960
Speaker 1: best way to fight crime. Shane Rattenbury, Welcome to I

34
00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:53,720
Speaker 1: Catch Killers.

35
00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:54,760
Speaker 2: Thanks very much, Gary.

36
00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:56,960
Speaker 1: Now, I know you're a very busy man. We've been

37
00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,320
Speaker 1: trying to a schedule a time for you to come on,

38
00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:02,120
Speaker 1: so thanks for making the time.

39
00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:03,200
Speaker 2: It's great to join you.

40
00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,640
Speaker 1: Well, as a role of an attorney general, I would

41
00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:08,440
Speaker 1: imagine that's a pressure position.

42
00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,040
Speaker 2: It certainly is, and your description of it has sort

43
00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:13,360
Speaker 2: of been the first law officer of the jurisdiction is

44
00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,800
Speaker 2: exactly right. It means you've got responsibility for the court's

45
00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:21,200
Speaker 2: legal policy, the direction of the criminal justice system, but

46
00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:23,560
Speaker 2: also civil things, so we deal with defamation and all

47
00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,799
Speaker 2: those sort of civil sides of the law as well.

48
00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:27,880
Speaker 1: And you've got the background in law.

49
00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:29,799
Speaker 2: Yes, I did my law degree at a and you

50
00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,840
Speaker 2: quite some years ago now never went on too practice law.

51
00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:35,160
Speaker 2: I actually then took my law skills into other places.

52
00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:37,959
Speaker 2: But it's great to end up backing this role where

53
00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,520
Speaker 2: you have an opportunity to think through how do we

54
00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:41,880
Speaker 2: make the law better for people?

55
00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Well, it gives you that perspective on how

56
00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,080
Speaker 1: you can change and make a difference. And that's what

57
00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,080
Speaker 1: we're going to have a deep dive into today's chat

58
00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,840
Speaker 1: because some of the things that you're looking at in

59
00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:55,520
Speaker 1: terms of let's call law reform or just better ways

60
00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,720
Speaker 1: of fighting crime. I'm passionate about that. Since I've left

61
00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:01,880
Speaker 1: the I'm thinking, well, I thought that I was doing

62
00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,880
Speaker 1: some good as a police officer, but there's a lot

63
00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,919
Speaker 1: that can be doe outside of that realm.

64
00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, indeed, And look, you know, the police play a

65
00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,000
Speaker 2: fantastic role and I really admire the work they do

66
00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,480
Speaker 2: because they every time they turn up somewhere they're usually

67
00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:17,840
Speaker 2: meeting people on the worst day of their lives. Very

68
00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:19,400
Speaker 2: much how I think about it, and I've seen that

69
00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,080
Speaker 2: in action. What we need to do is make sure

70
00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,840
Speaker 2: that the police are focused on the things that we

71
00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:27,680
Speaker 2: really need police for. But so much crime is oriented

72
00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:33,079
Speaker 2: around poverty, disadvantage, mental health issues, drug and health issues, drugging,

73
00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,240
Speaker 2: alcohol issues, I should say, and we need to make

74
00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:38,400
Speaker 2: sure that we have a different response to those issues.

75
00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:39,760
Speaker 2: That's very much how I think about it.

76
00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:43,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's definitely a school of thought that the prevention

77
00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,840
Speaker 1: is better than cure. And I, even as a police

78
00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,160
Speaker 1: officer for thirty four years, I was always concerned when

79
00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:53,280
Speaker 1: we're going to solve a problem through arrests, like, Okay,

80
00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,360
Speaker 1: this is a problem where we're going to raise the

81
00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,360
Speaker 1: stakes high, We're going to bring in mandatory sentence, whatever.

82
00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,000
Speaker 1: One thing that in the documentation I've been going through

83
00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,520
Speaker 1: in preparation for this that I really like because it's

84
00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,040
Speaker 1: been a pet hate of mind throughout my police career

85
00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:12,440
Speaker 1: that come election time, quite often the platform is law

86
00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,520
Speaker 1: and order and the response is, let's crack down on crime.

87
00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:17,760
Speaker 1: We're going to make legislation tougher, We're going to put

88
00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,080
Speaker 1: longer sentencing, that type of thing, and I always thought

89
00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,479
Speaker 1: we miss the point, but that was what was often

90
00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,200
Speaker 1: portrayed when there was a law and order issue in

91
00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,920
Speaker 1: discussion leading up to an election. Quite often the response

92
00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:31,720
Speaker 1: to that, Okay, we're going to get tough on law.

93
00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,920
Speaker 1: From my perspective, I don't think that always works. Would

94
00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:35,799
Speaker 1: you share that.

95
00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,599
Speaker 2: It is a really common thing to see in election campaigns.

96
00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:40,400
Speaker 2: We've just seen it in the Northern Territory election a

97
00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,560
Speaker 2: couple of weeks and the new Chief Minister, her pitch was

98
00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:46,440
Speaker 2: the first meeting I'll have after becoming Chief Minister is

99
00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:48,360
Speaker 2: to go and see the Police Commissioner. We're seeing it

100
00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:50,560
Speaker 2: come through in the Queensland election which is due later

101
00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,119
Speaker 2: this year. We're in an election cycle in the Act

102
00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,640
Speaker 2: at the moment, we're also seeing it there. It is

103
00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,240
Speaker 2: really common and it's a simple and appealing answer, but

104
00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,240
Speaker 2: it's not getting We're right across the country we are

105
00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:05,120
Speaker 2: seeing prison populations go up. People don't feel any safer.

106
00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,240
Speaker 2: But when you look at the Justice Reinvestment Agenda, which

107
00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:10,760
Speaker 2: is saying that I'm really focused on, you are starting

108
00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:12,520
Speaker 2: to see and we've got some great examples which I'm

109
00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:14,520
Speaker 2: sure we'll get a chance to get into where it

110
00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,080
Speaker 2: is starting to reduce crime. People have had long lives

111
00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,080
Speaker 2: of criminal history are getting better. You know, they're going

112
00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:23,200
Speaker 2: on better tracks. It makes our whole community safer if

113
00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:25,440
Speaker 2: we can make this investment. I talk about it as

114
00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:27,160
Speaker 2: building communities, not prisons.

115
00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'm all for it. The trouble is to

116
00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,119
Speaker 1: sell that, Like I speak to people on the street,

117
00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,000
Speaker 1: and they know as an ex cop and a crime

118
00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,400
Speaker 1: will happen, they are this person should be put away forever.

119
00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,720
Speaker 1: That type of narrative, And so I can see how

120
00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,080
Speaker 1: it's easy leading into an election if you want the

121
00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:49,119
Speaker 1: popular vote to let's just get tough on crime.

122
00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:51,680
Speaker 2: But the alternative story is more complex, and so it's

123
00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,120
Speaker 2: also harder when you're trying to tell a story and

124
00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,120
Speaker 2: you know, fifteen second media grabs or a back and

125
00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,760
Speaker 2: forth interview on radio where you've got six or seven minutes,

126
00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,200
Speaker 2: it's hard to tell a more complex story. And so

127
00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:05,400
Speaker 2: the simpler story works in that political context.

128
00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,200
Speaker 1: Here, the journey I've been on, it's been a journey

129
00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,320
Speaker 1: in the four or five years i've been out of

130
00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,000
Speaker 1: the police. One thing that and I see him as

131
00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,159
Speaker 1: somewhat as a mentor and people would have heard me

132
00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:20,720
Speaker 1: reference him before is a man that had his son

133
00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:24,880
Speaker 1: killed in a murder. It was a shocking murder, and

134
00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,240
Speaker 1: that beats a arm robbery. Working there to pay his

135
00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:32,680
Speaker 1: way through UNI and someone's coming and killed his son,

136
00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,839
Speaker 1: shod his son. He talks about getting tough on crime,

137
00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,200
Speaker 1: and when that happened, he reacted the way that you

138
00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,400
Speaker 1: would expect someone to react. There was outrage, he wanted

139
00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,120
Speaker 1: to get revenge, all the type of feelings that you'd

140
00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:49,599
Speaker 1: come with having a loved one killing those circumstances. But

141
00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,880
Speaker 1: he's of a view and I still the quote that

142
00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:55,320
Speaker 1: we don't need to get tough on crime, we need

143
00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,880
Speaker 1: to get smart on crime, and if we can reduce crime,

144
00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:04,000
Speaker 1: we reduce victims. And it's a simple narrative, but whenever

145
00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:06,280
Speaker 1: I have a discussion with someone, yeah, but if there's

146
00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:08,840
Speaker 1: less crime, there's less victims. Isn't that where we should

147
00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:09,239
Speaker 1: be heading.

148
00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,680
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's all about making our community safe. Now that

149
00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:15,760
Speaker 2: grief is so understandable, horrible things happen to people, and

150
00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,200
Speaker 2: particularly the lose child I think is one of the

151
00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,800
Speaker 2: worst things that can happen to people. Because there's that saying,

152
00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,560
Speaker 2: you know, you should never bury your own child. It

153
00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,080
Speaker 2: takes a lot of courage to be able to overcome that,

154
00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,000
Speaker 2: and I have absolute admiration. Now, there are some people

155
00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:32,640
Speaker 2: simply need to go to jail. There are people who

156
00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,920
Speaker 2: are genuinely dangerous to the community and they need to

157
00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:37,880
Speaker 2: spend time in custody to keep the rest of the

158
00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,920
Speaker 2: community safe. But so many people I spend eight years

159
00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:42,880
Speaker 2: as corrections minutes. So there are so many people in

160
00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:49,280
Speaker 2: these systems who are therefore reasons that are related to poverty, disadvantage,

161
00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,200
Speaker 2: the way they grow up, mental health problems, all of

162
00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,840
Speaker 2: these things. We can do so much better by putting

163
00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:56,800
Speaker 2: them on a different track.

164
00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,720
Speaker 1: Well, putting them on the different track. And that's very

165
00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,160
Speaker 1: much what Ken Marslow dedicated a large portion of his

166
00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,680
Speaker 1: life too, with an organization Enough is enough and he

167
00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,360
Speaker 1: would go in the prisons and help where he could.

168
00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,400
Speaker 1: But yeah, I find that type of focus on the

169
00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,520
Speaker 1: way of fighting crime something that's productive and something that

170
00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,400
Speaker 1: everyone everyone benefits from. Before we get into talking about

171
00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:21,840
Speaker 1: how we're going to fight crime and reduce crime and

172
00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:24,000
Speaker 1: make the well the better place, let's find out a

173
00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,200
Speaker 1: little bit about yourself. Tell us you're sorry.

174
00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:28,680
Speaker 2: Oh look, I grew up in a small country town,

175
00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,640
Speaker 2: Bateman's Bay, on the south coast of It is great,

176
00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:34,040
Speaker 2: it's grown a bit since I left. I then won

177
00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,760
Speaker 2: a scholarship to go to school up in Canberra. My

178
00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:38,880
Speaker 2: mom was a single parent household. My mom took my

179
00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:40,480
Speaker 2: sister and I up to camera think it will be

180
00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,520
Speaker 2: better opportunity for the whole family, and she was right.

181
00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:43,800
Speaker 1: You know.

182
00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,440
Speaker 2: I got a great schooling and then first in family

183
00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,720
Speaker 2: to go to university, so that was really a big

184
00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:50,880
Speaker 2: thing as well. But you know, I grew up in

185
00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,959
Speaker 2: public housing, so I sort of look at my life

186
00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:56,760
Speaker 2: over very fortunate. Even though I grew up in a

187
00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,080
Speaker 2: single parent household, we had good family around us, you know,

188
00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:00,800
Speaker 2: because I see a of the people that come into

189
00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,439
Speaker 2: our criminal justice system and they've grown up without that support,

190
00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:07,720
Speaker 2: without the encouragement, And I reflect on that a lot

191
00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,440
Speaker 2: in my own good fortune really that I did have

192
00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,080
Speaker 2: people around me who sort of saw how to put

193
00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:15,760
Speaker 2: a good life together. They encourage us into sport and

194
00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,280
Speaker 2: cubs and those kind of community activities that really make

195
00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:20,360
Speaker 2: a difference in your life.

196
00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing that having one good person or that

197
00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:27,640
Speaker 1: love and nurturing that can point lives in the right direction.

198
00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:32,760
Speaker 1: You're somewhat of an activist, which I like it and

199
00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:34,920
Speaker 1: I want to dig into that because I think it's

200
00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,760
Speaker 1: fascinating the stuff that you did with Greenpeace. But when

201
00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,880
Speaker 1: did you become an environmentalist? Was that the young age?

202
00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:42,880
Speaker 1: What was it that drew you to that?

203
00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:45,319
Speaker 2: Yeah? Relatively young. I sort of described myself as a

204
00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,000
Speaker 2: child of the eighties. There was some big environmental issues

205
00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,280
Speaker 2: around me. Had the hole in the ozone layer, there

206
00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:54,280
Speaker 2: was the fight to protect the Antarctica from mining, big logging,

207
00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,400
Speaker 2: conversations in Australia about protecting the forests, and that was

208
00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:00,240
Speaker 2: just that age I was sort of starting I think

209
00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,560
Speaker 2: about the world and it made a big impression on me.

210
00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,600
Speaker 2: And you know, I got involved with some environmental groups

211
00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,839
Speaker 2: when I was at university. The Green Party formed around

212
00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:10,839
Speaker 2: that time, and Bob Brown, as the leader of the party,

213
00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,959
Speaker 2: was a real role model and inspiration to me. And

214
00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,280
Speaker 2: so I just got more and more involved and I

215
00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:17,360
Speaker 2: guess found my place.

216
00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, with Bob Brown. Is it just my recollection? But

217
00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,280
Speaker 1: isn't there a classic failure of him on the surfboard

218
00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:25,440
Speaker 1: in the harbor with a ship coming in?

219
00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,640
Speaker 2: No, that's Ian Cohen was also involved in the early

220
00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:30,920
Speaker 2: days of the Greens. But Bob's from tazzy Ian's from

221
00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:31,480
Speaker 2: up here in.

222
00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:36,679
Speaker 1: Sydney, damning the Franklin's Yeah, okay, yeah, but yeah, it

223
00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:38,240
Speaker 1: was a sign of the times.

224
00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,439
Speaker 2: And I was really inspired by that notion of peaceful activism. Yes,

225
00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:43,760
Speaker 2: you know, it is a break in the law at times,

226
00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,319
Speaker 2: but in a way that's not about it's about crime

227
00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,960
Speaker 2: as such that there's not victims. It's a different type.

228
00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,040
Speaker 2: It's the civil disobedience and very much that Gandhi sort

229
00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,400
Speaker 2: of notion of putting yourself there to make a difference

230
00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,240
Speaker 2: without harming others, and that nonviolent part of it's always

231
00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:00,920
Speaker 2: been so important for me as an activist.

232
00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,080
Speaker 1: I wasn't involved in a lot of from the policing

233
00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:06,439
Speaker 1: point of view with protests, but I know that some

234
00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,280
Speaker 1: people where there was logging or mining protests and all

235
00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,880
Speaker 1: that there was a good relationship with the police because

236
00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:14,160
Speaker 1: it wasn't a violent protest and there would be a

237
00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:16,920
Speaker 1: bit of laughter and they'd end up playing cricket together

238
00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,160
Speaker 1: or whatever. That was still achieving the goals, but it

239
00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:21,200
Speaker 1: wasn't violent.

240
00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,320
Speaker 2: Now, absolutely, I've had some terrific relationships with police over

241
00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:25,840
Speaker 2: the years. Because I had a law degree by the

242
00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,600
Speaker 2: time I started doing stuff with Greenpeace, I was often

243
00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,120
Speaker 2: the one that was sort of designated to talk to

244
00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,480
Speaker 2: the police and work through the issues and by help

245
00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,200
Speaker 2: people out at the other end. You know, It's some

246
00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:37,840
Speaker 2: fun times and sort of talking to the police about

247
00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:39,200
Speaker 2: all right, how are we going to work this out?

248
00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,400
Speaker 2: And they got a job to do. We totally respect

249
00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,839
Speaker 2: that they shouldn't face violence in their workplace. Now I

250
00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:46,880
Speaker 2: know they do, but in that kind of context, yeah,

251
00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:48,200
Speaker 2: I think they do appreciate it. You sort of sit

252
00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:49,880
Speaker 2: there saying, look, we're not here to give you guys

253
00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:51,480
Speaker 2: a hard time. We're just here to do this. Yeah,

254
00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,360
Speaker 2: and this is our plan, you know. And ultimately they

255
00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,360
Speaker 2: ended up having to arrest people at times, but even

256
00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,600
Speaker 2: those people went away peacefully and so it didn't present

257
00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:01,880
Speaker 2: a of a personal safety risk to the police.

258
00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, what's for currency, what's going on down in Melbourne?

259
00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,200
Speaker 1: That's ugly all round, isn't it? With the protests down

260
00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:12,440
Speaker 1: there and not the nature of protesting. Respect people's rights

261
00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,000
Speaker 1: to protest, but it just it seems to be escalating

262
00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,200
Speaker 1: on both sides, and it's never nice to see.

263
00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:18,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't like to see that sort of stuff.

264
00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:20,560
Speaker 2: I think there's a way to make your point without

265
00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,200
Speaker 2: we see people throwing bottles and bricks at police. There's

266
00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,080
Speaker 2: no place so that the police don't deserve to have

267
00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:27,040
Speaker 2: that when they go to work.

268
00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, I agree, and that it's unfortunate when

269
00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:33,800
Speaker 1: that happens. But with your involvement in Greenpeace, it wasn't

270
00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:39,000
Speaker 1: just a fleeting uni radical get involved. You're right in

271
00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:41,560
Speaker 1: you had positions in their held positions.

272
00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:43,440
Speaker 2: I was lucky enough it became my job and I

273
00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:45,200
Speaker 2: worked here in Australia for a number of years and

274
00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,760
Speaker 2: then went overseas and actually went to lead Greenfiace's Global

275
00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,760
Speaker 2: Oceans campaigning out of Amsterdam, which is where the international

276
00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:54,920
Speaker 2: headquarters is, including a trip to Antarctica taking on the

277
00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:56,079
Speaker 2: Japanese whaling fleet.

278
00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:00,240
Speaker 1: Tell us about that, because that was fairly intense, was

279
00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:01,760
Speaker 1: rammed and.

280
00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was a pretty full on time. So

281
00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,520
Speaker 2: we took two ships and about sixty crew helicopter and

282
00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:09,800
Speaker 2: headed off into the Southern Ocean to try and find

283
00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,120
Speaker 2: the Japanese whaling fleet. Now that's the hardest part. It's

284
00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:14,680
Speaker 2: actually fine, they don't want to be found, but That

285
00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:16,640
Speaker 2: was a year that Japan announced that we're going to

286
00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,240
Speaker 2: start taking hump back in fin whales, which at that

287
00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,360
Speaker 2: point that was still both endangered species, and we just

288
00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:24,840
Speaker 2: couldn't stand by and let that happen, so we sailed

289
00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,080
Speaker 2: out of Cape Town. Turns out I get really seasick,

290
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:29,640
Speaker 2: so it was a pretty tough trip for me.

291
00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:30,880
Speaker 1: It's not fun, is it. No.

292
00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,559
Speaker 2: You're heading across the Roaring forties and fifties to get

293
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,160
Speaker 2: down to Antarctica, big oceans, and I was on an

294
00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,280
Speaker 2: ice breaking vessel. I've got a rounded hule, so they

295
00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,120
Speaker 2: blob around in the ocean. So I lost a bit

296
00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,439
Speaker 2: of weight heating down there. And this is a visual

297
00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:45,600
Speaker 2: not a visual meeting. Your listeners can't see me. But

298
00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:47,800
Speaker 2: you know, I got a background in sort of running.

299
00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:49,760
Speaker 1: And I've got a lot of weight to lose.

300
00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:51,520
Speaker 2: I didn't thought I lost some weight down there just

301
00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:53,720
Speaker 2: because I couldn't keep the food down. But look, once

302
00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:55,720
Speaker 2: you get down there, we found the Japanese whaling fleet

303
00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,120
Speaker 2: and we undertook a lot of that direct action, nonviolent,

304
00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,439
Speaker 2: but you know, getting in those small inflatable boats, putting

305
00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,319
Speaker 2: ourselves between the whale and the hardpurn it's pretty wild

306
00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,640
Speaker 2: time you're down there. The water's freezing cold. It's only

307
00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:08,440
Speaker 2: one or two degree.

308
00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,280
Speaker 1: It can't last too long if you fall in.

309
00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:12,920
Speaker 2: I mean it's the high of summer, so it's twenty

310
00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,199
Speaker 2: four hours a daylight, but it's not warm, and you've

311
00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,640
Speaker 2: got ice floating around in the water, small icebergs. There's whales.

312
00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,080
Speaker 2: There's a guy with a grenade tipped harpoun pointed directly

313
00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:21,400
Speaker 2: at you.

314
00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:26,640
Speaker 1: It got fairly willing at stages because they're water cannons

315
00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:30,160
Speaker 1: and all sorts of stuff. Did you get a rested?

316
00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:30,320
Speaker 2: All?

317
00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:31,400
Speaker 1: Did? Well?

318
00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:33,320
Speaker 2: There's no police. You're on the highest seas. There is

319
00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,960
Speaker 2: literally no law. It is the wild West out on.

320
00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,320
Speaker 1: The ocean, and so this is your time playing pirates.

321
00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:40,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just us versus them down there, and you

322
00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,160
Speaker 2: know the rules really are I mean, there are rules

323
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,240
Speaker 2: of shipping, you know how to safely interact at sea.

324
00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,800
Speaker 2: But obviously we're then we're trying to give them a

325
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,520
Speaker 2: hard time. We're trying to interfere and stop them catching

326
00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,280
Speaker 2: the whales. Most of our putting our own bodies on

327
00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:56,560
Speaker 2: the line and just being in the way and bearing

328
00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:57,400
Speaker 2: witness to that as well.

329
00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,680
Speaker 1: When you were down positioning yourself between the the whaling

330
00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:05,560
Speaker 1: ships and the whale you were putting. I was watching that.

331
00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:07,880
Speaker 1: There was fairly risky stuff. How did you feel.

332
00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:09,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, you sort of do all this training, you think

333
00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:11,160
Speaker 2: about what it's going to be like. But I never

334
00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,360
Speaker 2: forget the first moment. I was standing on this small

335
00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:15,520
Speaker 2: rubber boat in the middle of Antartia and there's we're

336
00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,000
Speaker 2: going around at eighteen knights, there's ice, there's a whale

337
00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,000
Speaker 2: just in front of us, and there's a guy putting

338
00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,040
Speaker 2: this grenade tip tarpoon at and I looked up and thought,

339
00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:25,840
Speaker 2: how did I get here? And am I going to

340
00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:27,640
Speaker 2: survive this? Now we did, and you then just click

341
00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,120
Speaker 2: into all the training mode and the adrenaline takes over

342
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:32,080
Speaker 2: and you're in the moment. But yeah, there was certain

343
00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,320
Speaker 2: a moment I thought, oh, And the other moment was

344
00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,000
Speaker 2: we did have an incident down there where we crashed

345
00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,840
Speaker 2: in Japanese whaling ship crashed into us. I was on

346
00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,240
Speaker 2: a small boat fifty meters long, so eight hundred times,

347
00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,800
Speaker 2: and there's eight thousand Japanese factory vessel crashed into us.

348
00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:48,840
Speaker 2: And at that moment I said and thought.

349
00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,400
Speaker 1: Oh, oh, that would have made a hell of a noise.

350
00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:54,680
Speaker 2: The noise was unbelievable, just the crunching of metal on metal,

351
00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,000
Speaker 2: and I just had anything, this ship's going to turtle over,

352
00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,400
Speaker 2: and we're in the fridge of waters of Antarctica, and

353
00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,960
Speaker 2: we are in life here anyway, we obviously got away

354
00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:04,920
Speaker 2: to live to tell the tale. But yeah, there are

355
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,240
Speaker 2: moments down there where you're thinking, oh.

356
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,880
Speaker 1: And the people that you're with in Greenpeace very much

357
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:11,960
Speaker 1: light minded people.

358
00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:16,240
Speaker 2: Oh. Absolutely. We had a crew of eighteen on my ship. Now,

359
00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,080
Speaker 2: eighteen different nationalities.

360
00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:19,520
Speaker 1: I should say, Okay, that's interesting, and.

361
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,480
Speaker 2: We spent a Christmas down there. It was actually fantastic.

362
00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:23,880
Speaker 2: So we had a you know, in the quieter moments,

363
00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,239
Speaker 2: you know, we sort of shared all our different cultures

364
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,760
Speaker 2: and people came to things with really different perspective, but

365
00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:32,120
Speaker 2: ultimately with a real conviction for making the planet better.

366
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:36,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, well done, because someone had to speak up.

367
00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,800
Speaker 1: But yeah, putting yourself between the harpourn and the whale

368
00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,400
Speaker 1: in the Antarctic a little bit risky.

369
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,560
Speaker 2: I'd sort of seen that earlier in my life and thought, wow,

370
00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:47,640
Speaker 2: that's a gutsy thing to do, so defind myself in

371
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,640
Speaker 2: that circumstance was a bit of a moment in life,

372
00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,600
Speaker 2: you think, oh yeah, here I go. Part of it

373
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,560
Speaker 2: was actually also telling the story. There had not been

374
00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,000
Speaker 2: video footage of this sort of whale hunting process, and

375
00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,080
Speaker 2: we had cameras on board, professional photographers and the like.

376
00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,000
Speaker 2: So part of it is your two thousand kilometers south

377
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,080
Speaker 2: of Australia at the end of the Earth, and part

378
00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:10,000
Speaker 2: of is capturing the pictures to tell the stories so

379
00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,160
Speaker 2: that people back home could say, actually, we don't agree

380
00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:13,240
Speaker 2: with this, we wanted to stop.

381
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,760
Speaker 1: Well, that's what it really came across. From those images,

382
00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,399
Speaker 1: the brutality of it, and the whales and the heartburns

383
00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,760
Speaker 1: and seeing them dragged up and cut up and different

384
00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,600
Speaker 1: things pretty gross. Besides that, what was it like down

385
00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,639
Speaker 1: there just from the environment looking at it must be

386
00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:30,360
Speaker 1: an experience within itself.

387
00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,199
Speaker 2: It's an incredible part of the world. I mean, the

388
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:36,560
Speaker 2: beauty of the icebergs, twenty four hours of daylight, penguins,

389
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:42,359
Speaker 2: pods of orcas swinging past, seeing the whales, all the

390
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,720
Speaker 2: birds you get, all the albatris and the birds that

391
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,359
Speaker 2: live in those parts of the world. It's an incredible

392
00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,640
Speaker 2: part of the planet, largely untouched by humans, but I've

393
00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:54,639
Speaker 2: actually been back last year on a climate change expedition, right, okay,

394
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:56,600
Speaker 2: and we're doing that. We were looking at the impact

395
00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,280
Speaker 2: of climate change, but even plastics. We did a trawl

396
00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,520
Speaker 2: for plastics in the water and finding plastics at that

397
00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,280
Speaker 2: far end of the ocean. Got that far, small pieces,

398
00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,400
Speaker 2: small fragments, but the circulation of the world's oceans means

399
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,840
Speaker 2: that as humans we have polluted every corner of this planet.

400
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:17,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, that drifts down there. Okay. How long were you

401
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:18,280
Speaker 1: involved with green Peace?

402
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,120
Speaker 2: About ten years okay here in Australia, as I said,

403
00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:24,400
Speaker 2: and then I did six months in Bangkok in Southeast

404
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,440
Speaker 2: Asia where Greenpeace was establishing a presence.

405
00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:29,320
Speaker 1: What sort of the issues were you dealing with in

406
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:31,040
Speaker 1: Southeast Asia?

407
00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:35,240
Speaker 2: It was a lot about ocean pollution, industrial pollution, chemical

408
00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:40,119
Speaker 2: outfalls countries like Thailand, the Philippines and like where. It

409
00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,600
Speaker 2: wasn't the level of environmental protections, environmental rules and regulation

410
00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:45,639
Speaker 2: that we would have in Australia now. So it was

411
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,159
Speaker 2: really for me coming from Australia and going to that

412
00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:49,760
Speaker 2: role it was a bit of a step back in time.

413
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,160
Speaker 2: There were things being done that it had been outlawed

414
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,760
Speaker 2: in Australia many years earlier, and I was really pleased

415
00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:56,760
Speaker 2: to go there for a period as and experienced activists,

416
00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:01,520
Speaker 2: to work with activists from Thailand, the Philippines and Indonesia

417
00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,560
Speaker 2: on ways you could campaign and ways you could expose

418
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,040
Speaker 2: these stories and help change things and lobby governments for

419
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:08,720
Speaker 2: better laws.

420
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:12,280
Speaker 1: Where do you think this came from your drive, your passion?

421
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:14,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, in the sense there were no

422
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:16,880
Speaker 2: other activists in the family. We were not a political

423
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:17,679
Speaker 2: family at all.

424
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,320
Speaker 1: Right, So it wasn't your mum whipping it into you

425
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:21,359
Speaker 1: right from the start.

426
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,320
Speaker 2: I think it was just that thing of being a

427
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,399
Speaker 2: child of the eighties and these things were coming on

428
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,280
Speaker 2: to TV and organizations like Greenpeace. We're getting out there

429
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:31,399
Speaker 2: telling these stories, and I thought that's the way I

430
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:32,639
Speaker 2: can make a difference in the world.

431
00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,200
Speaker 1: Okay, And looking back at your ten years, you're proud

432
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:37,040
Speaker 1: of what you achieved.

433
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:39,480
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, we made a real difference in a

434
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,720
Speaker 2: range of different areas. You know, Green Piece has got

435
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,480
Speaker 2: a proud history, controversial organization at times, and not everybody's

436
00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,200
Speaker 2: cup of tea. I understand that, but that commitment to

437
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,280
Speaker 2: nonviolence has always been such an important part of it.

438
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,840
Speaker 2: Whilst it's been controversial, green Peace has done things that

439
00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,919
Speaker 2: not everyone's agreed with. They've also shifted the dial and

440
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,080
Speaker 2: there's a lot of environmental wins around the planet that

441
00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,359
Speaker 2: result from that, people being willing to get in and

442
00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:04,679
Speaker 2: have a go.

443
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,800
Speaker 1: Well, I think without sometimes things that you've got to

444
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,479
Speaker 1: fight for and fight for it in that way to

445
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,000
Speaker 1: draw attention to it necessary because otherwise it's very easy

446
00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:18,440
Speaker 1: just to sweep it under the carpet and someone else's problem.

447
00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:20,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's lots of people around the world who

448
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:22,879
Speaker 2: can point to some of those images that Green Pieces generated.

449
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:24,600
Speaker 2: You brought up they one of me and Cohen surfing

450
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,240
Speaker 2: on the bow That wasn't a Green Piece one. But

451
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,119
Speaker 2: the thinking in Green Piece was pictures tell a thousand words,

452
00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:33,840
Speaker 2: and so creating those powerful images, bringing those images of

453
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,000
Speaker 2: whaling back from the Southern Ocean. People get those images,

454
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:39,840
Speaker 2: they leave an emotional impact on them and that's how

455
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:40,880
Speaker 2: you get change as well.

456
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:46,920
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, after the time in Greenpeace, what did

457
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:48,199
Speaker 1: you think you were going to do? Where was your

458
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:48,720
Speaker 1: life heading?

459
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:50,879
Speaker 2: Look, I was loving my job in greencaus I was

460
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:52,880
Speaker 2: sitting in Amsterdam doing the work. But I had been

461
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,200
Speaker 2: involved in the Greens back in Australia before I'd gone

462
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,880
Speaker 2: away and I got a call from some friends back home.

463
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 2: He said, look, there's an election coming up. You consider

464
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 2: going for pre selection and running for it. And I

465
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,600
Speaker 2: thought it was kind of I'd been away a while

466
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,920
Speaker 2: as overseas, you missed the family, you missed Australia. It

467
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:10,919
Speaker 2: felt like about the right time to come home. So

468
00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,560
Speaker 2: I took up that opportunity, came back, literally flew in

469
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,280
Speaker 2: and started election campaigning and I was fortunate enough to

470
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,240
Speaker 2: get elected at that go in two thousand and eight.

471
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,760
Speaker 1: It's okay, what seat? And it was a local seat in.

472
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,760
Speaker 2: Camera, right in the heart of Camera, so the central

473
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,600
Speaker 2: bits of the city, an area that I called home.

474
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,960
Speaker 1: I asked people, listen and think, I know quite a

475
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,400
Speaker 1: few politicians and David Tchubridge is a good friend of mine.

476
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,680
Speaker 1: That you know David upmost respect for him. I think

477
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 1: he changed my thinking on politicians. I've known him for

478
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,919
Speaker 1: probably fifteen or so years, and passionate person that fights

479
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,800
Speaker 1: for the right things, and very impressed by the way

480
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,040
Speaker 1: he goes about his business. But to put yourself up

481
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 1: as a politician, I would imagine it's quite confronting. It's

482
00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 1: almost like at school, Am I going to be the

483
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:00,360
Speaker 1: popular kid?

484
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:01,119
Speaker 2: Like you?

485
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 1: Really? Hey, look at me? Do you like me or

486
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,480
Speaker 1: don't like me? I would imagine you felt vulnerable.

487
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,119
Speaker 2: It's a really great observation. And for me it was

488
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 2: a real change because going from Greenpeace, you were there

489
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 2: sort of you know, I did media week for Greenpeace,

490
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:15,840
Speaker 2: but it was about the organization and about the issues.

491
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 2: When you go into politics, you're right, it's actually about

492
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 2: you personally. For me, it's still about the policies and

493
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 2: where the party stands and those kind of things, but

494
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,120
Speaker 2: it is the way it's talked about. It is much

495
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 2: more about you, and you get voted for and city.

496
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,360
Speaker 2: It almost gets harder once you've been elected the first

497
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:31,720
Speaker 2: time because then you come up for a re election

498
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,920
Speaker 2: and you're reapplying for your job in this really public way,

499
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,520
Speaker 2: and if you lose, you know, you sort of get

500
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 2: sacked pretty publicly.

501
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,960
Speaker 1: Well it's brutal, isn't it. If the payment's the way

502
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,639
Speaker 1: politics plays out. If you make a mistake, you're going

503
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,399
Speaker 1: to get crucified and it's going to be public and

504
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 1: you're going to get humiliated. And well, we've all seen

505
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 1: so many politicians have the fall on this ord or

506
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:56,479
Speaker 1: be caught up in something.

507
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 2: So now we all make mistakes. You know, in any

508
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,120
Speaker 2: career job, there's things you're going to probably look back

509
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 2: later and think, I wish I'd done that differently one

510
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,440
Speaker 2: hundred And you get that feedback usually from your boss

511
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 2: in a one on one meeting in the room. In politics,

512
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 2: it's on the front page of the paper the next

513
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,359
Speaker 2: day if you know, you don't give a great quote,

514
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 2: or you misjudge something and it does happen, or.

515
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,439
Speaker 1: You in a conference where you haven't got the facts

516
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 1: in your head or whatever, and people get crucified for that.

517
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 1: And I think we're hard task masters, but I suppose

518
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 1: that comes with putting your hand up there going I

519
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:29,639
Speaker 1: want to be a politician.

520
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 2: And on the flip side, it is a fantastic job.

521
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 2: I do love it. You know, you have this and

522
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:35,639
Speaker 2: it's a real privilege to be in a role this,

523
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 2: particularly once you become a minister and have that particular

524
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,360
Speaker 2: set of opportunities. But you have a chance to get

525
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,479
Speaker 2: up there and shape community perspectives, make an argument, and

526
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 2: for me, I still feel like an activist. You know,

527
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,720
Speaker 2: people often say, oh, what's the difference between the role

528
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 2: I haading Greenpeace and be in politics, and I still

529
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,120
Speaker 2: feel it's very similar in the sense that you're out

530
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 2: there trying to make an argument for a different pathway forward,

531
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,400
Speaker 2: to convince people there is a good way to do this,

532
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 2: and so it's like that, and it's a privilege to

533
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 2: have that kind of a role.

534
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 1: You can make a difference. So I think if you

535
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 1: can hang on to that feeling, that's a privilege and

536
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 1: the noma that would have to serve you well.

537
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and certainly in act politics it's a bit different

538
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:15,439
Speaker 2: to say, federal politics. We have to go away all

539
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 2: the time. We're in our community every day and it's

540
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 2: a smallish place. We don't travel much, you know, come

541
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 2: up to city. It's kind of a day out for

542
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,359
Speaker 2: me to come and record the podcast. But it keeps

543
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 2: you very grounded as well. As you're in your community,

544
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 2: just out getting your groceries and someone will come up

545
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:29,880
Speaker 2: to you and say, hey, Shane, you know.

546
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: What about this about that local member as well?

547
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:34,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, so how.

548
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 1: Long have you been in politics now for I've actually

549
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,360
Speaker 1: just come out for the end of my fourth term

550
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 1: for sixteen years, okay, so that's a long. It wasn't

551
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:42,880
Speaker 1: what I said out for.

552
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, you just sort of find yourself there

553
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 2: and there's still things to keep doing and I've still

554
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 2: got the energy for it. And as I said earlier,

555
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 2: we come up to an election soon and as part

556
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 2: of that, you've got to go through the pre selection

557
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,400
Speaker 2: process in the party, and that's the time to sit

558
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 2: down and think, have I still got it? Do I

559
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,120
Speaker 2: still want to do this? Because it is a hard job.

560
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,880
Speaker 2: It's a constant job. It's NonStop pressure, non stop scrutiny,

561
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 2: and so you've still got to have a passion for

562
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 2: it or you've got to get out.

563
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think were the pressure and the scrutiny

564
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 1: that you've got to be on your game. If you're not,

565
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 1: you probably shouldn't be there too. I think if you're

566
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 1: there for an honorable reason, if you're tied or you're

567
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 1: just going through the motions, you're not giving justice to

568
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 1: the people you're there to there to serve.

569
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 2: I think that's exactly right, and you've got to be

570
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,919
Speaker 2: honest with yourself about that. And I sat down and

571
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 2: did that last year, sat down and thought, right, I've

572
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 2: been here a while, have I got it? In me,

573
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,359
Speaker 2: and the obviously came out the other side is yes,

574
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:34,439
Speaker 2: so I'm having one more go.

575
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: Okay, Now I understand that I felt the same when

576
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 1: I was in as a homicide detective. If I got

577
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: to a point where I thought I can't give it

578
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 1: one hundred percent, it would have been time to step away.

579
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 2: So, well, that's not a job where you can be

580
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 2: half hearted of it.

581
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 1: Well always said to people when I came in. It

582
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 1: was told to me and when people came in under me,

583
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: that that's not a nine to five job. If you're

584
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 1: going to call yourself a homicide detective, if you're going

585
00:25:58,200 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: to have to sign up and you're going to have

586
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: to make sacrifices, I would imagine that's very similar to

587
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: the role as a politician.

588
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I sort of look at it now. We're having

589
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:08,679
Speaker 2: done it for a while and you do lose contact

590
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 2: with friends. You just don't have the time to catch up.

591
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 2: And that's not anybody's fault. It's just you know, the

592
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 2: job gets in the way, and if you're passionate and

593
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,719
Speaker 2: committed to it, it does. You know, it takes your

594
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 2: time and your energy.

595
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 1: You can do what I did after I left the place,

596
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: I went round the family and friends and apologize. I've

597
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: just been busy for the past twenty or say years.

598
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,479
Speaker 2: But do they accept it?

599
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 1: Some did, some did them. I'm working towards the ones

600
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 1: that ones that didn't. So with crime, I'm fascinated by

601
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,919
Speaker 1: some of the things that you're focusing on and the

602
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 1: way to way the fight crime. Just your background in politics.

603
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: You're the Attorney General. Now we've talked about that, but

604
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,400
Speaker 1: you also held some portfolios that gave you a good

605
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: understanding of the world of crime.

606
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 2: Yeah. I first became a minister back in twenty twelve

607
00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 2: and they handed me the Corrections Portfolio. I had no background.

608
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:01,919
Speaker 2: I had the law degree, but I've not been a

609
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 2: criminal lawyer and anything. My world had been environmental activism,

610
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 2: a bit of interaction with the justice system, as we

611
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 2: touched on, you know, bailing out activists, paying their fines,

612
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 2: negotiating bail, but pretty in the grand scheme of a

613
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 2: criminal justice system. Lightweight stuff. But I found myself with

614
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 2: the Corrections portfolio and that was an absolute eye opener

615
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 2: for me. It's not a popular portfolio. It's a tough

616
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 2: portfolio in terms of there's not much good news comes

617
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 2: out of corrections. But it's actually an amazing portfolio because

618
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 2: if you get it right again, you make a real difference.

619
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,679
Speaker 2: And so I really got the bug for it. I

620
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 2: did a four year term as Corrections Minister and you

621
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 2: come around and the next election there's a bit of

622
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:39,880
Speaker 2: a reshuffle and they're like, what portfolio is do you want?

623
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 2: I said, I'll keep corrections, and I think there's a

624
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 2: bit of surprise at that. But it's an important portfolio.

625
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: It's very important, but it's one that you're quite right.

626
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 1: There's not a lot of positive stuff comes out of it.

627
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 1: The only time you hear corrective services generally in the

628
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 1: media or people are talking about when something's gone wrong.

629
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, death in custody, are riot, someone escapes, these sort

630
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 2: of things. Yeah, that is generally what you see in

631
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 2: the press. But like the police, I reckon there's a

632
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 2: lot of people in corrections who go in there because

633
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 2: they think they can make a difference. They go in there.

634
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 2: A lot of it's with heart, actually, and I don't

635
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 2: think that's a common perception of corrections, but I've met

636
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 2: a lot of corrections officers who say I'm here because

637
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 2: I think I can help people out.

638
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 1: Look, I was guilty of looking at corrections when I

639
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 1: was a police officer and we'd spend a lot of

640
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: time in jail, but just thinking okay, corrective services officers.

641
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 1: But since stepping away from the police and spending time

642
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 1: in jail and spending time with corrective services officers, I'm amazed.

643
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: I shouldn't say amazed, it's just I've become aware of

644
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: how passionate they are about making a difference, because I

645
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: think the public perception that we see on films or

646
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: they walk around with a bat and just dragging a

647
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 1: long the along the cell doors with a big set

648
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 1: of keys hanging off, but it's so far different when

649
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: they're inside.

650
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 2: And it's a tough role as well. I mean, there

651
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 2: are people in jail who use violence to resolve the

652
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 2: spits because that's how they've learned to survive in the world,

653
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 2: and the corrections officers are at risk of that violence.

654
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 2: But there's also so much they can do. And as

655
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 2: we've talked about earlier, so many people in jail are

656
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 2: there they don't want to be there, and I've spent

657
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 2: time chatting and prisons as well. Most of them just

658
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 2: want to get home to their families. They want to

659
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 2: see their mum. They feel they've brought shame on the family.

660
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 2: So there's a lot of people in jail who have

661
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 2: really interesting perspectives on life in a way that, again

662
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 2: the community wouldn't understand through this sort of the stereotype

663
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 2: of thinking about who's in jail, what it's like, that

664
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 2: sort of thing. Most of the time, a lot of

665
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 2: guys in jail and the ladies are just bored and

666
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 2: they just want to get out.

667
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: That's I look. I agree with what you're saying, and

668
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 1: from a police officer's point of view, I'm thinking I

669
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 1: didn't really care what happened to them when they went

670
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 1: into jail. It wasn't my concern. I was just looking

671
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 1: what's our next case. But having spent time in there,

672
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you're aware, but I did a

673
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: podcast series called Breaking Badness where Corrective Services invited me

674
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: into a maximum security prison and I found a fascinating experience.

675
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,959
Speaker 1: I spent a couple of weeks in there and speaking

676
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: to speaking to some of the inmates and what their

677
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: stories were, and I'm thinking we could really make a

678
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: difference and what they're doing there, and we might touch

679
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 1: on it a little bit later about the way prisoners

680
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: have been treated so they can integrate better into society. So,

681
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: talking in a general sense what we touched on about

682
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 1: the election promises cracked down on crime and all that,

683
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: what's your overall view on the way we should approach

684
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: approach crime and law and order.

685
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 2: In the big picture, anyone who goes to just mostly

686
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 2: going to come out again. And so if we want

687
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 2: to make our community safer, we need to take that

688
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 2: opportunity to intervene either while they're in custody ideally before

689
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 2: they ever get there. As I've touched on a lot,

690
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 2: so much crime comes from poverty and disadvantage and the like.

691
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 2: Use that phrase before a building communities, not prisons. So

692
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: if you think about the history of what's done as

693
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 2: justice reinvest it came out of the US, out of

694
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 2: Texas and out of all places. And I think this

695
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 2: surprises a lot of people, and out of the conservative

696
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 2: side of politics, and it came from actually economic rationalism,

697
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 2: the idea that jails are really expensive places to run.

698
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 2: The criminal justice system costs a lot of money to run.

699
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 2: And what we see is and you'll have seen this

700
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 2: in your police create and our police in Canberra complain

701
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 2: about this all the time. They're just they're arresting the

702
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 2: same people time after time. People are just cycling through

703
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 2: the system. They're not getting the rehabilitation, they're not getting

704
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 2: the support to put their lives back on track, and

705
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 2: so you continue to just keep getting victims, as we

706
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 2: touched on earlier, and so if we can break that cycle,

707
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 2: we make better lives for the people who are in

708
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 2: custody if people are in the system, and we make

709
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 2: our community safer, and that's better for all of us,

710
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 2: and it's more cost effective.

711
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: It does seem like a no brainer when you put

712
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: it down there, but it's just got to get the public,

713
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: I think, changing their thoughts on crime, because our instinct

714
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 1: with crime is Okay, that happens, we'll lock them up

715
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 1: for away the key, but it doesn't necessarily create a

716
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 1: good environment.

717
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 2: And you know, if you go to the law, there's

718
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 2: a range of stated outcomes or stated reasons for having sentencing,

719
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 2: and that includes punishment deterrence, but it's also about rehabilitation,

720
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 2: about holding people to account. I guess the view I

721
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 2: take is there's lots of ways to hold people account

722
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 2: for and some of the alternative options we've put in

723
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 2: place in the Act, which reckon we'll get into in

724
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 2: a minute. They're not soft options the whole people accountable,

725
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 2: but they're pretty grueling to go through.

726
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, but just a different, different way of approaching it.

727
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: I'm just looking at some of the notes I've made

728
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: here that we don't if we can prevent people from

729
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: offending in the first places, that would be the perfect

730
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 1: world if we could do that. Obviously, we can't achieve that.

731
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 1: Achieve that all the time. You've talked on some of

732
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 1: the crimes, the lesser crimes, the way that we deal

733
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 1: with deal with people and they're on the wrong path

734
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 1: and they end up in jail, and that the recidivism

735
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: that we have not just in this state but in

736
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 1: every state, like across the country, it's ridiculous. What about

737
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 1: the diversionary programs? Can we talk about that?

738
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, it'd be great to look and you talk about

739
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 2: avoiding it in the first place. One of the changes

740
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 2: we've just made in the Act is to raise the age.

741
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 2: There's this thing called the minimum age of criminal responsibility

742
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 2: and across most of Australia it's ten years old. And

743
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 2: that idea is that that's the age of which you

744
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 2: can be held responsible for your criminal acts. The evidence is,

745
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 2: of course, that kids don't have the thinking that developed,

746
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 2: ways of critically analyzing the world to really understand the

747
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 2: consequences of their crime, and and age like that. So

748
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 2: we've just raised the age in the Act to twelve,

749
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 2: and next year it will go to fourteen. Now that's

750
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 2: not just about saying you can't get in trouble, because

751
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:50,959
Speaker 2: we know that young kids will do things that are

752
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 2: harmful to themselves and to others. But instead of them

753
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 2: going into jail and starting that life in the system

754
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 2: and then media up with other people who are like that,

755
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 2: they'll instead be averted into programs that address their needs.

756
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 2: Now that could be drug and alcohol issues, it could

757
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 2: be the fact that they're just homeless and they're stealing

758
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 2: to survive. All of them are different, they've got different needs,

759
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 2: But the clear intent is that they will be helld accountable,

760
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 2: but they'll also be given the support to make sure

761
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 2: they don't keep going down that path. So it is

762
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 2: actually about starting right at the beginning. When you think

763
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 2: about something like kids and their early interactions, you know,

764
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 2: I've met these kids and I've heard the stories. Are

765
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 2: the ones who are in jail and they've grown up

766
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,839
Speaker 2: in households where no one's ever had a job. They're

767
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 2: not encouraged to go to school. They just sit around

768
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 2: the couch. Their parents are taking drugs all the time.

769
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 2: And what sort of role modeling is that these kids

770
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:42,280
Speaker 2: have got no chance?

771
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like you look at you hear lives like

772
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: that and think, well, how will they how are they

773
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,800
Speaker 1: meant to turn out like yourself? Myself, we had people

774
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 1: that cared for you, poiled in the right direction, and

775
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 1: if you didn't have that. So it's an interesting concept

776
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 1: like raising the age for been liable for a criminal offense, because.

777
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 2: The alternative is if that you could be sent to

778
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,399
Speaker 2: jail in Australia as young as eleven years old, going

779
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 2: to juvi. You know, if you're in juv at eleven,

780
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:12,479
Speaker 2: you know it's mostly the kids that are a little

781
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 2: bit older twelve and thirteen where you really start to

782
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 2: see the trouble. But you know, the northern territories also

783
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 2: raise their age of criminal responsibility. But then your governments

784
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 2: come into actually we're going to push it back. I

785
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 2: just don't kids if they get into the system at

786
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,839
Speaker 2: that age, they're just going to get institutionalized, they're hanging

787
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 2: out with other people who are in the same circles,

788
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:30,240
Speaker 2: and the cycle is going to build.

789
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: I've had too many people on here that have gone

790
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 1: down the criminal path and talk about when they went

791
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: into the juvenile system that virtually marked their cards. It

792
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: was absolutely okay, this is a path I'm going on,

793
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: and it was almost in that environment you've got credit

794
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 1: for being the worst kid in the system.

795
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 2: The stories we hear from these kids.

796
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so we break that. What about with drug

797
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: and alcohol the courts specifically set up for those type

798
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 1: of things, because we had a recent guest on them

799
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 1: talking about he was hooked on heroin for twenty years

800
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 1: or whatever, and he's now working on the thing that

801
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 1: it's not about treating the drug addiction. That's about treating

802
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 1: what drove people to drugs. And I think from a

803
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:20,439
Speaker 1: policing point of view, we'd go lock up the same

804
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: people and you always knew it was drug related or

805
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 1: alcohol could play the factory in it. How do you

806
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: see that working? Changing the focus that let's treat the

807
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 1: problem your addiction to drugs. We've got to work that

808
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: out otherwise you're going to keep coming back to court.

809
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 1: So what's your thoughts there.

810
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 2: The Drug and alcohol courts are a really powerful model.

811
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 2: Now we've brought one in relatively recently compared to some

812
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 2: other jurisdictions, but the results are they're really life changing.

813
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 2: I went and saw one in New Zealand to see

814
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 2: what it was like the first time. I was over

815
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 2: there for a Corrections Minister's conference and I went and

816
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 2: checked out the call while I was there, and the

817
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 2: judge it was a lady. She was a fantastic mix

818
00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 2: of frightening school teacher and caring auntie okay, and the

819
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 2: way she run a court and the way the premise

820
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 2: of the drug and alcohol courts is you get support

821
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 2: when you're going well, but if you fall off the wagon,

822
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 2: you get pulled into line and you get held accountable.

823
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 2: And our one in the act, the judge there happens

824
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 2: have been a mail. He's done to play that same

825
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 2: sort of role of pushing both sides of it. And

826
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 2: we've just done some evaluations of it and the results

827
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 2: have been fantastic. We've now had thirty three people graduate

828
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,800
Speaker 2: through the program. So basically, you're going to be sentenced

829
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,880
Speaker 2: to jail and instead you get sent into this stream

830
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 2: in the Drug and Alcohol Court. You're back out in

831
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 2: the community, but it's intensive. You've got to go to

832
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 2: court once or twice a week to check in with

833
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 2: the judge. You're getting urine testing pretty regularly. You've got

834
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 2: to do other courses that sort of go to why

835
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 2: you're involved in the system. Of the thirty three people

836
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 2: that have been that are graduated so far, not one

837
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 2: of them is reoffended. And the sort of people we're

838
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 2: talking about it ones that have been in and out

839
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 2: of the system for fifteen years. They've gone in and

840
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 2: out of jail, they come out, they maybe get out

841
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 2: for three months or six months, and then they offend

842
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 2: and they go back again.

843
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: So just breaking it down, shame with that court because

844
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 1: the figures quite interesting if you're having the success rate

845
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: like that. So you've got the local offender the drugs.

846
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 1: Of course, he breaks into places or stole something because

847
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: he's addicted or she's addicted to a drug. Okay, you

848
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,479
Speaker 1: charge with the offense. You go before the drug court.

849
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: Explain the steps from there.

850
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, you actually go before the regular court,

851
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 2: magistrate or Supreme Court. You're in there, you've been sentenced.

852
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 2: You're going to get two, three, four years, but you're

853
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:34,879
Speaker 2: given the option to go into the drug and alcohol court.

854
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 2: They have to choose.

855
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's not compulsory that they've got to go.

856
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:41,919
Speaker 2: To jails if I want to. But obviously this looks

857
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 2: like a more attractive option, you know, some of the

858
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 2: people looking and go that's a bit of a soft option.

859
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 2: You get to hang out in the community instead of

860
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 2: going to jail and just have to turn up to court.

861
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,479
Speaker 2: But as I said, it is really intensive. There's high

862
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 2: expectations placed on people. There's a series of service providers

863
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 2: that so you go into the drug and alcohol court,

864
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 2: you get assisted. We've got health staff working there, we've

865
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,879
Speaker 2: got social services staff working there. Average on Torres rail

866
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 2: on the support services because obviously there's the over representation

867
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 2: of our first nation's community. And you then get prescribed

868
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 2: as sort of activities you have to be involved in.

869
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and how long does the how long do they

870
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 1: stay on the program.

871
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 2: It can vary a little bit, but it's sort of

872
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 2: a twelve to eighty month timeframe is roughly it. And

873
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 2: even those who haven't graduated, you know, they finish up

874
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 2: because their sentence runs out or for various reasons they

875
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 2: don't finalize the program. Even in that cohort, we've seen

876
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,839
Speaker 2: a sort of eighty to ninety percent rate of not reoffending.

877
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 1: And is the not reoffending because you've taken drugs out

878
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 1: of the mix their addiction. You've dealt with the addiction

879
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: pretty much, and they were offending because of their addiction,

880
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 1: and it was like a cat chasing its tale.

881
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 2: Yep, that's exactly it. But the other benefits that come

882
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 2: out of us are so powerful. The breaking an addiction there,

883
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,240
Speaker 2: stopping the offending, but then stories of people being reunited

884
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 2: with their children because they're now they're clean, they're getting

885
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 2: a life, they're getting jobs. We had one fella spoken

886
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:03,799
Speaker 2: an event recently, had been through the court and he

887
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 2: talked about going getting himself some education, getting that reunification

888
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 2: with partners and kids, really stuff that matters.

889
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: In our lives. There's a lot to be said about

890
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 1: the need for people that have been taken out of

891
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: the society, whether they're in prison or they're on the

892
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 1: verge of going to prison, having that connection with community,

893
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 1: having that connection with their families.

894
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a risk of people being ostracized because they've

895
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 2: been in jail because they've committed a crime, and the

896
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,839
Speaker 2: only people that will associate with them other people who've

897
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,359
Speaker 2: been in jail, and they're not pro social influencers. They're

898
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 2: not people that say, Hey, come to this party with

899
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 2: me and do some drugs, or come and help me

900
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 2: knock over this servo or whatever the story is. Whereas

901
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 2: if you reconnect with family friends, you're able to get

902
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 2: a job. You know, that's probably the ultimate success is

903
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 2: actually getting re employed. But all those influencers, they're the

904
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 2: things that keep you on track.

905
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and gives you a sense of self worth too.

906
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,080
Speaker 1: I've seen people that turned their life around and they

907
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 1: walk differently, they walk with pride. Then they're not slinking

908
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 1: around them that they have that sense of self worth.

909
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,799
Speaker 1: What about restorative justice? Yeah, thoughts on that because I'm

910
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:11,720
Speaker 1: really fascinated by.

911
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:16,399
Speaker 2: This is such an interesting area of justice for people

912
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 2: who don't know about it. The idea of restorative justice

913
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 2: is essentially making peace, and again it's definitely not a

914
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 2: soft option. The way it operates in the acts, you

915
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 2: have the offender, you have the victim, and through a

916
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:31,359
Speaker 2: supported process, they have facilitators who run it and there's

917
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 2: a lot of preparatory workers in you don't just check

918
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 2: them in a room together, but ultimately you get them

919
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 2: in a room together and the offender has to sit

920
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,359
Speaker 2: and speak with the victim, and the victim talks about

921
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 2: the impact that crime had on them, how it's left

922
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,720
Speaker 2: them feeling unsafe at night in the dark, the sense

923
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 2: of violation from having someone break into their house, whatever

924
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 2: the circumstances are. The victim will talk about the impact

925
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 2: that's had on them, and the perpetrator has to sit

926
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 2: and confront that, and it is a powerful thing. Out

927
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 2: the other side, the intent is the victim the perpetrator

928
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 2: takes responsibility for what they've done. The intent is they apologize,

929
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,359
Speaker 2: and there's a reparations process where the victim can then

930
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 2: talk about what they want the perpetrator to do that

931
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 2: would leave the victim feeling like the perpetrator had taken responsibility.

932
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, have you seen examples of that.

933
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,239
Speaker 2: I've never been in a conference. I've spoken to a

934
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,359
Speaker 2: lot of the facilitators and I've spoken to people who've

935
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,359
Speaker 2: been through the process. They find it. Victims of crime

936
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 2: find it really empowering because one of the things that

937
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 2: being a victim of crime is it takes away your

938
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 2: sense of agency. Someone's done something to you that you

939
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:42,439
Speaker 2: couldn't control, and so many victims they're out the other side,

940
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 2: that's what most impacts them, and this is a way

941
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,919
Speaker 2: of giving agency back. It's a way of finding peace

942
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 2: out of it. And again in the surveying we've done,

943
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 2: if people who've been through it, we sort of get

944
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 2: this ninety eight ninety nine percent satisfaction rate. And it

945
00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 2: sounds too good to be true. Now. I say that

946
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 2: because often there are entering into this process and it

947
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 2: doesn't always work. If the perpetrator is not prepared to

948
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 2: take responsibility, they won't be put in the room with

949
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 2: a victim because that could just make it worse again.

950
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 2: But that ability to sit down with somebody and make

951
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 2: peace come out the other side in the sense of

952
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,720
Speaker 2: them understanding what they did to you, you understanding perhaps

953
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 2: why they did it, and they're making that active apology

954
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 2: and doing other reparations is well.

955
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:30,919
Speaker 1: It potentially helps a victim too. Absolutely, Like I've seen

956
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 1: victims that their lives have been destroyed because of the

957
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 1: This might be families of victims of homicide or victims

958
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,320
Speaker 1: of crime themselves that survived, but they carry this anger,

959
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 1: this fear, this whole range of emotions that can be

960
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 1: soul destroying if you're angry and hanging onto that. And

961
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 1: I've spoken to people I won't name them for the

962
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,760
Speaker 1: privacy side of things, but people who have their family

963
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 1: members killed and they've sat down and I won't say

964
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,799
Speaker 1: make peace, but they've come to terms with what the

965
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 1: person has done and actually met with the person, and

966
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 1: they get a better understanding and still stay angry, but

967
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: the anger is channeled in the more positive, positive direction.

968
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 2: So it's a good way to scope victims have a

969
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 2: whole range of experiences and how they feel out of

970
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 2: these processes. But part I was talking before about how

971
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 2: this is an empowering process because the alternative the criminal

972
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 2: justice is you go to court. The victims don't have

973
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 2: a role in court often. I mean, we now have

974
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 2: victim impact statements and the like, but historically the victims

975
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 2: feel very much marginalized in the process. Yet you go

976
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 2: in the court room and the perpetrators in the dock,

977
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 2: the judges up there, the lawyers are sort of having

978
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 2: the argument, and the victims sort of sitting in the back,

979
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:47,800
Speaker 2: probably not often not understanding the process because it's complex.

980
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 2: It's legal ease. You know, the witnesses come in. The

981
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 2: victim may or may not be a witness. People are

982
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 2: spoken to me about the fact. They come out of the

983
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 2: other side of that now like that all happened around me.

984
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 2: But I'm sort of still here and I don't know

985
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 2: what happened, and I don't have a sense of having

986
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 2: got to tell my story very well. You know, the

987
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 2: defense Paris was cross examining me. I felt like a criminal.

988
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 2: So it's a pretty dissatisfying process for a lot of victims,

989
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 2: whereas restorative justice is a very different process.

990
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 1: I hadn't even thought about the thought about it in

991
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 1: that context. But yeah, I do understand what you're saying,

992
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 1: because quite often for murder trials, I'm with the family

993
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 1: the whole time and they come out and they just

994
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 1: what was that all about? Speaking in legal jargon and

995
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 1: not understanding and being excluded from the courts on certain things.

996
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 1: I was involved in the first victim impact statement here

997
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 1: in the state that was a murder of Ioline Cantlay,

998
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: and I remember when that came in. It was the

999
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 1: first time being used in New South Wales, and I

1000
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:49,399
Speaker 1: got the sense there was a lot of resentment from

1001
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 1: the court system because the court system like, we don't

1002
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:56,839
Speaker 1: need to hear from the victims. Yeah, that type of

1003
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:00,360
Speaker 1: let's call it intellectual arrogance that comes with the legal

1004
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 1: for eternity. But I see that the way it helps

1005
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 1: victims at least having their say, like coming in there

1006
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 1: and actually speaking, speaking the impact that's had on them.

1007
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,959
Speaker 1: And quite often it's very traumatic for them sitting there

1008
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 1: and it's always emotional when they're reading their victims Impact statement.

1009
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: But I think that's bringing some sort of humanity into

1010
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:21,760
Speaker 1: the courts.

1011
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:24,839
Speaker 2: One of the things I developed a few years ago

1012
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 2: in the AC was a victim's Charter of Rights because

1013
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 2: there's a whole series of points in the justice process

1014
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:32,319
Speaker 2: where victims interact with the system and it can be

1015
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 2: really dissatisfying for them, from the police obligations on the

1016
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 2: police to keep them updated on the investigation, through to

1017
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 2: the Director of Public Prosecutions again keeping the victim in

1018
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,279
Speaker 2: the lube telling them what's happening. Some of the worst

1019
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 2: examples I've seen where people are so upset is where

1020
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,439
Speaker 2: there's been a plea deal done and the victims saying

1021
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 2: there going what the hell just happened?

1022
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 1: Not consulted.

1023
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,839
Speaker 2: So having we've now formalized this into the victim's charter

1024
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 2: to give both victims a clear sense of their rights,

1025
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 2: but also to put the pressure on the agencies who

1026
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 2: are busy but saying them, actually, the system is going

1027
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 2: to work a whole lot better if we step through

1028
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 2: these processes.

1029
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,720
Speaker 1: And the system should be there. The system, I always think, laws, courts,

1030
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 1: it's here to serve the community. So if it's not

1031
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 1: providing the service that the community want, we've got to

1032
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:21,359
Speaker 1: try and change it. I always think that's a good

1033
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 1: definition of police and quite often police are rating themselves

1034
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:28,360
Speaker 1: on are we doing a good job or whatever. I

1035
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 1: think a police force should be judged on are they

1036
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,800
Speaker 1: providing the service to the community that the community require,

1037
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 1: and if they are, they're doing their doing their job. Well,

1038
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,280
Speaker 1: let's just wind back to restorative justice a little bit too.

1039
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 1: I think it's very powerful for the offender, especially a

1040
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 1: young offender that might quite understand what it meant when

1041
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 1: he robbed the little old lady of the handbag and

1042
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 1: ran off the street, but if he had to sit

1043
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 1: down and speak to that person and the impact that

1044
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 1: it's had on the victim, I think there has to

1045
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:01,360
Speaker 1: be some benefits here because I don't know about you,

1046
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 1: but when I was a kid, I saw the ignorant

1047
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 1: to other people's emotions because your will just revolves around

1048
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 1: you pretty much. That's been a teenager, so been dragged

1049
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 1: into that situation where you've got to confront what you've

1050
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 1: done and understand. I'm sure that has to have a

1051
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 1: good effect on that people.

1052
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:21,799
Speaker 2: That's the lesson out of it. You're absolutely right, And

1053
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 2: in recent times we've opened the scheme up to domestic

1054
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 2: and family violence and sexual offenses, and they're obviously much

1055
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 2: more difficult issues, but the case studies are fascinating. You know,

1056
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 2: people often think of domestic violence as being between intimate partners,

1057
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 2: but it can also be young people, often young men,

1058
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 2: assaulting brothers and sisters or their parents, these kind of things.

1059
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 2: You've got a situation there where the family doesn't want

1060
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,440
Speaker 2: the young person to go to jail. I definitely want

1061
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:49,840
Speaker 2: the violence to stop, and so this can be a

1062
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 2: really powerful process of that because you're putting people in

1063
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 2: a room who want to get an outcome, who want

1064
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:57,879
Speaker 2: to restore their family unit, but the violence has to stop,

1065
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:02,279
Speaker 2: it can't continue. People at first instance, thinking how can

1066
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:04,879
Speaker 2: you do that? But then you look at the case

1067
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 2: studies that come through and it's so powerful.

1068
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:11,439
Speaker 1: You said sex offenders as well. How's that play out?

1069
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, we haven't seen so many we've had this.

1070
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 2: We open it up probably about two or three years ago. Now,

1071
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 2: we've not had so many sexual assault matters coming through.

1072
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:20,399
Speaker 2: It's obviously the most difficult area.

1073
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I could imagine the beacon, the fronting.

1074
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:24,879
Speaker 2: And the whole point of a storative justice is it's

1075
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 2: all done with consent. No one's forced into it on

1076
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 2: either side of the equation of a victims. There's no

1077
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,839
Speaker 2: way then it's just it's never going to happen. And

1078
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 2: if the offender is not there saying I'm open to

1079
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 2: taking some responsibility, well it's not going to happen. And

1080
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:40,359
Speaker 2: so the facilitators who run the process have a really

1081
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 2: important role to sort of make that judgment. There's a

1082
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 2: series of pre meetings and it takes quite a bit

1083
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 2: of preparation where because you can't have people going in

1084
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:49,879
Speaker 2: there just trying to get off scot free or get

1085
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 2: the easy route.

1086
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you've got to give the agency to the

1087
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 1: victims too. So the fact that you can't well, this

1088
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 1: person's assaulted you. Now you've got to sit in this

1089
00:49:58,160 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 1: room and talk to this person.

1090
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:02,399
Speaker 2: And clearly, for some victims of crime, it's just something

1091
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 2: they're not going to want to do. But that goes

1092
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:07,239
Speaker 2: that spectrum of victims and their hopes and their aspirations

1093
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 2: and there you know what they think they might get

1094
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 2: out of.

1095
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:13,919
Speaker 1: It will wrap up shortly for part one that when

1096
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 1: we come back, we're going to break down some other

1097
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: aspects of way of fighting crime. But I just want

1098
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 1: to talk in a general sense because a lot of

1099
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 1: it's going to be about what happens. What happens in

1100
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:28,359
Speaker 1: the prisons. My observation of prisons, and it's not these

1101
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 1: are not my figures, but when it was said to

1102
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 1: me and the work that I did within the prisons,

1103
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:35,880
Speaker 1: it makes a lot of sense. You've got probably twenty

1104
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 1: or thirty percent of people that are in prison that

1105
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 1: are let's call them professional criminals. They've just chosen that life.

1106
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 1: They know they could be the thief that we know

1107
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 1: what's going to happen. We're going to get out, we're

1108
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 1: going to do our crime, and we're going to come

1109
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 1: back in. So they're a hard group to change. That

1110
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:54,799
Speaker 1: might be their family history, that might be you know

1111
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 1: what they were raised, values, their rays. So they're the

1112
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:02,720
Speaker 1: professional criminals. Then you probably sit with maybe sixty percent

1113
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 1: of people that have made mistakes. These are the people

1114
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 1: that they're inherently good people. They've just gone on the

1115
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 1: wrong path, surround themselves with the wrong people, had no

1116
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,399
Speaker 1: direction in their the hate being in jail. They hate

1117
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 1: themselves and not hate, that's a strong word, but they're not.

1118
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 1: This is not what they want their life to be.

1119
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 1: So that sits sixty percent. Then the leftovers are the

1120
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 1: people that society needs to be protected by. And really, yeah,

1121
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:32,799
Speaker 1: I haven't gone too soft my attitude with some of

1122
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 1: that level of people. I don't care what happens to them.

1123
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 1: They've got to be taken away from society because of

1124
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 1: the nature of the crime. So any work that we

1125
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 1: can do in that space if we can't, you know,

1126
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 1: you can't change everyone. Sometimes the things that you've proposed

1127
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:51,840
Speaker 1: will fail. But if you can change a few of

1128
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 1: those people in there, it has to be better, doesn't it.

1129
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:56,440
Speaker 2: It's that sixty percent that I'm most interested in. You

1130
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 2: you're it's a good description of them. It's my experience

1131
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:01,560
Speaker 2: of watching who's in the system and what they're there

1132
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 2: for and why they found themselves in those circumstances. If

1133
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 2: we can get that sixty percent, that's a great start.

1134
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. For me. With mcquarie Correctional Center in New

1135
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 1: South Wales, the work that they're doing there.

1136
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 2: I have not been a Macquarie nine Yeah, okay.

1137
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:17,919
Speaker 1: I went up there, spent a couple of weeks in there,

1138
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 1: invited by Corrective Services and what they're doing at maximum

1139
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 1: security prison. But they have the prisoners living in dorms,

1140
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:27,719
Speaker 1: which I thought in maximum security prison that's going to

1141
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 1: be a blood bath. You can't put twenty five prisoners

1142
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:34,439
Speaker 1: in a dorm and just lock the keys and leave

1143
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:38,240
Speaker 1: them there. But there's no When I say there's no violence.

1144
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 1: If there is violent actions up there, they're removed from

1145
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 1: Mcquarie Correctional Center. They work for six hours a day,

1146
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:49,799
Speaker 1: like go to a employment within the prison whatever they're doing,

1147
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,439
Speaker 1: and they study for six hours a day and they

1148
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 1: resolve their conflicts, not with a ship which happens in

1149
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:00,440
Speaker 1: most prisons. And it was like I was sitting down

1150
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:02,920
Speaker 1: speaking to the prisons and they go, okay, we'll live

1151
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 1: in here. Twenty five of us in this dorm. If

1152
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 1: I've got an issue with Shane, we'll raise it and

1153
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: we'll discuss this, and then we might suggest that Shane

1154
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 1: should go to another dorm or whatever. And while I

1155
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 1: was picking up from them, the corrective services officers, they

1156
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:22,800
Speaker 1: treat them with respect, and there was mutual respect between

1157
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:25,479
Speaker 1: the two groups. It wasn't that clear line the blue

1158
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 1: and the green that normally occurs in prisons, basically setting

1159
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:33,720
Speaker 1: them up so when they get back out in the society,

1160
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:36,840
Speaker 1: they've got skills that they have. The skills that they developed,

1161
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 1: they're transferable into when they get back into the community.

1162
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:42,399
Speaker 1: I was amazed by the work that was done there,

1163
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 1: and I think part of the reason Correactive Services invited

1164
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 1: me in there as a cop. You know, people assume

1165
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 1: I've got this natural leaning towards get tough on the crooks.

1166
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 1: The modeling of the prison system. The Scandinavian countries do

1167
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:59,839
Speaker 1: similar type things. I was amazed at what happened, what

1168
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,359
Speaker 1: happening in that prison. I walked away very impressed. I'm

1169
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 1: speaking to speaking to people. I'm not naive speaking to

1170
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 1: the inmates, but there were some hard cases in there

1171
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 1: and going, look, we've been treated like humans. We've been

1172
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:15,319
Speaker 1: treated with respect. That sets us up better when we

1173
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 1: get to get out back into the community. What's your

1174
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 1: thoughts on that type of prison system.

1175
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 2: It's interesting to say that the Act didn't have a

1176
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 2: jail until two thousand and nine ten. That sort of era,

1177
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 2: people used to be sent to Kuma or Goldwyn or

1178
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:32,360
Speaker 2: various other places. The jar was open with a very

1179
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 2: similar model in mind. And we've got a campus style

1180
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 2: jail where people do live in cottages, they order their food,

1181
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:41,799
Speaker 2: they cook together, again building some of those skills. I

1182
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:43,359
Speaker 2: think it's got a lot of potential. I don't think

1183
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 2: we quite got it right in the Act. Our jail

1184
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:47,840
Speaker 2: was built with no industries they were built. It was

1185
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 2: built with people were just going to get education and study.

1186
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 2: And this is not a cohort of people who are

1187
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:53,880
Speaker 2: going to sit on the books too well, you know,

1188
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:56,279
Speaker 2: they need much more practical things. I've been to a

1189
00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 2: visit to Long Day Jail where they've got a whole

1190
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:01,799
Speaker 2: stream of industry sets. You know, I really found that

1191
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 2: inspiring because you're walking through and you're chatting the guys

1192
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 2: and they're like, this is great. I've developed this skill.

1193
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 2: I'm making things that your earlier point around a sense

1194
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 2: of self worth. So there's definitely that's the model we

1195
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:13,919
Speaker 2: should be going down so that when people come out

1196
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:17,239
Speaker 2: they've got skills. And because we didn't build our jail

1197
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 2: with industries, we've got a significant problem. A board and

1198
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:21,280
Speaker 2: people just sitting around.

1199
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:22,400
Speaker 1: And bore them creates.

1200
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:26,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it creates, creates, violence, create drugs, drug seeking behavior,

1201
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:27,320
Speaker 2: all of those things.

1202
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,280
Speaker 1: So the thing that I came away with after spending

1203
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:32,720
Speaker 1: time in that prison, and I also went into another

1204
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 1: prison that was more the traditional but at the Macquarie

1205
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:39,240
Speaker 1: Correctional Center, there was people that the sense of pride

1206
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:41,800
Speaker 1: there was. There was a different feel, a different vibe

1207
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 1: in the prison, and prisons have that vibe. You walk

1208
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:46,320
Speaker 1: in and you're just, oh, this is a horrible place.

1209
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 1: But there were some positive things happening there. And the

1210
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:51,759
Speaker 1: way that they were being treated and the inmates were

1211
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:54,520
Speaker 1: being treated, the way they treated each other, and the

1212
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 1: way that the staff were treating the inmates and vice versa.

1213
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:01,920
Speaker 1: I thought that was really positive. So I from a

1214
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 1: police point of view, and again I reference it back

1215
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:08,759
Speaker 1: to Ken Marslow that if there's less crime, yeah, there's

1216
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:09,480
Speaker 1: less victims.

1217
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:12,040
Speaker 2: So and the whole community is say, we're all better.

1218
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:16,319
Speaker 1: Off and people I think, and this is wind the

1219
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 1: clock back centuries ago. If someone misbehaved invariably, they had

1220
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:24,920
Speaker 1: to you know what sort of discipline. Well, they were

1221
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:26,759
Speaker 1: part of the tribe or part of the community. So

1222
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:28,759
Speaker 1: we couldn't just get rid of that person and send

1223
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:31,239
Speaker 1: them off to a prison. There had to be punishment.

1224
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 1: But they've got to be part of the community. They

1225
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 1: might have been the hunter there or the gatherer or whatever.

1226
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:40,439
Speaker 1: Now we're in these big cities and someone misbehaves, let's

1227
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 1: just send them off to jail. We don't care. We're

1228
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:45,200
Speaker 1: not worried about when they come back into the community.

1229
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 1: But they do come back into the community.

1230
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:49,680
Speaker 2: It's a really good point and it goes to another

1231
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:52,040
Speaker 2: example we're operating in the Act where we have a

1232
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 2: circle sentence in court. Yeah, it's called jalumbarney, which is

1233
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 2: a local Aboriginal word, and it's for Abridginal and tost

1234
00:56:57,719 --> 00:57:00,160
Speaker 2: other people. And there's a judge that sits on it.

1235
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 2: But then they also have a panel of elders sit

1236
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 2: with them, and so usually young offenders, they're most of

1237
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 2: the young people they have to come in and they

1238
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:09,240
Speaker 2: have to sit there and explain themselves to the arnies

1239
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 2: and uncles yea who know their family and probably know

1240
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 2: their parents, you know, And there's a is that community

1241
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 2: element of all. Actually, you're part of our family. But

1242
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:21,920
Speaker 2: what you've done has harmed our family, shamed our family,

1243
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 2: caused a problem for us. What are you going to

1244
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 2: do about it?

1245
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 1: There's that punishment, but we've also we need you as

1246
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:30,920
Speaker 1: part part of the community in the.

1247
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:33,160
Speaker 2: Community is taking responsibility for that as well.

1248
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 1: I think it was down there Bateman's Bay area. Someone

1249
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:38,600
Speaker 1: was telling me about a young fellow and he was

1250
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:42,040
Speaker 1: sentenced on that aspect of it to go fishing with

1251
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 1: an old fellow.

1252
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, how good's that?

1253
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 1: Like, Okay, you've done the wrong thing and he's sitting

1254
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:50,400
Speaker 1: with an old wise man just sort of steering him

1255
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:52,680
Speaker 1: in the right direction. And to me, that seems a

1256
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:55,800
Speaker 1: lot better than throwing them in a juvenile detention center

1257
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 1: and going hard on them. Indeed, So it's just changing,

1258
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:02,680
Speaker 1: changing the way of approaching things. We have got so

1259
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:04,920
Speaker 1: much to talk about, But we'll have a break now

1260
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:08,640
Speaker 1: and when we come back we'll deal further into our discussion.

1261
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:09,760
Speaker 2: Terrific cheers,