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Speaker 1: I'll get a team. It's you project Craig Anthony Harper's here.

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Speaker 1: Who else would be here but the bloke who hosts

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Speaker 1: the show. I've just met someone new. I just have

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Speaker 1: a brand new friend who's been doing a hard cell.

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Speaker 1: I will say on Bhutan, and it seems I have

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Speaker 1: to go there, maybe move there, maybe become celibate, maybe

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Speaker 1: change my life, get rid of all my stuff and

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Speaker 1: just become monastic. That seems unlikely, but maybe that's going

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Speaker 1: to happen. Hi, Emma Slade, how are you?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, I'm fine. I'm waiting to see.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you've got the right hairstyle for the monastic life, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's it's been pointed out that I'm not

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Speaker 1: particularly her shoot around the head region, so thanks for that. No,

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Speaker 1: you're right, I don't know. Look, my listeners would say

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Speaker 1: to you, Emma, he probably swears too much to be

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Speaker 1: any common but I can. I'm sure I can back

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Speaker 1: off on that. I'm sure that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so you think about of silence is not the

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Speaker 3: way you're going to go in your life, is it?

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Speaker 2: Or yeah?

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Speaker 1: Gosh, I literally talk for a living. Imagine that I

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Speaker 1: don't have any other skills. I'm essentially an idiot that

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Speaker 1: talks for a job. So imagine that that'd be Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's like telling a tradesman or a carpenter he can't

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Speaker 1: build anything, but good luck making money.

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Speaker 3: Well, maybe we're just leaving happily there in Australia then

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Speaker 3: with the podcast, and I'll just carry on here and

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Speaker 3: being in an atset.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well you do you, I do me, and maybe

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Speaker 1: who knows, I might have a visit and some kind

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Speaker 1: of existential kind of cathartic life changing moment. You never know,

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Speaker 1: you never know, right, I've.

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Speaker 2: Heard it can happen, Greg, I've heard it can happen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well you would have heard because you are in

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Speaker 1: tune with whatever there is to be in tune with.

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Speaker 1: You are in tune. Do you think that happens where

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Speaker 1: people go, I'm just going to head over to this

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Speaker 1: place and have a bit of a look around, and

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Speaker 1: they have no intention of any big kind of spiritual

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Speaker 1: moment or awakening or cathartic kind of episode, and it

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Speaker 1: almost it finds them rather than the other way around.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's definitely possible. I think it's definitely possible.

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Speaker 3: I think it's about the right time, the right moment,

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Speaker 3: the right place, and yeah, I think it can definitely happen,

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Speaker 3: not just in Bhutan, but I think other places too.

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Speaker 1: And I guess not just the right geographic place, but mental, emotional,

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Speaker 1: spiritual place too. Right, we're speaking in metaphors, not just

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Speaker 1: like it can probably even happen in Melbourne.

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Speaker 3: Folks who know I reckon, I reckon, I reckon it

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Speaker 3: definitely can you find those people, Craig.

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Speaker 1: I'm out. I'm on the hunt after this. If anyone

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Speaker 1: needs something, it's me so many issues. How much time

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Speaker 1: have you got, Emma?

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Speaker 2: Oh, you don't know time enough to talk to you.

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Speaker 3: Craig is absolutely fine, as you know, I just finished

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Speaker 3: my massive four hundred and three kilometer walk across your time,

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Speaker 3: so I am now sitting down a lot because I

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Speaker 3: kind of need to slightly recover from it.

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Speaker 2: So you got me at just the right moment.

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Speaker 1: Well, we really appreciate you. Rather than me bang on

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Speaker 1: about a dot point list of your bio or achievements,

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Speaker 1: could you whatever you want to share with my listeners,

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Speaker 1: just kind of introduce yourself, who you are, what you do,

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Speaker 1: and then we'll dive in from there, if you would

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Speaker 1: be so gracious, that'd be great.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, sure, okay, So hello everybody.

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Speaker 3: My name is Emma Slade or you can call me

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Speaker 3: Ani Permadeci and I'm born in England, but I spent

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Speaker 3: a lot of time in Bhutan, where I became a

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Speaker 3: monastic thirteen years ago. So if you can't see me,

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Speaker 3: you have to imagine somebody with no hair and red

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Speaker 3: and orange robes. And I left actually a very high

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Speaker 3: powered corporate job.

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Speaker 2: Slowly.

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Speaker 3: I left it slowly to become a monastic eventually in Bhutan.

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Speaker 3: And I set up a charity for special needs children

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Speaker 3: in Bhutan ten years ago called Opening your Heart to Beutan.

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Speaker 2: I wrote a book called Set Free, which people seem

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Speaker 2: to enjoy.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, and I'm just an all round very enthusiastic

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Speaker 3: let's make the world a better place type human.

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Speaker 1: Yeah you are. I love that I've done. Like I've

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Speaker 1: had a bit of a look at your ted X

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Speaker 1: talk and read some stuff and you you are quite inspirational,

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Speaker 1: although I'm sure you don't love the accolades. But tell

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Speaker 1: me about was there a was there a particular genesis

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Speaker 1: or moment in time for leaving the high powered world

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Speaker 1: of you know, the corporate space and getting out of

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Speaker 1: the suits and getting into the robes and getting rid

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Speaker 1: of the hair and getting rid of pretty much everything,

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Speaker 1: Like was there something that was there an existential crisis?

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Speaker 1: Was there an event or was it a slow burn?

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Speaker 2: I think it was a combination. I think.

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Speaker 3: I you know, I had this turning point in my life.

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Speaker 3: Many people have a turning point, I think, and turning

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Speaker 3: points usually involve some difficulty, right, Actually, turning points often

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Speaker 3: have that quality to them. So I happened to be

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Speaker 3: end up being held hostage at gunpoint in a hotel

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Speaker 3: room in Jakarta, and that had obviously a huge impact

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Speaker 3: on my life and also my feeling about having survived

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Speaker 3: and maybe what I wanted to do with my life.

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Speaker 2: But I think turning.

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Speaker 3: Points, I mean, I don't think it's an inevitable that

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Speaker 3: if you have a difficult experience that it will inevitably

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Speaker 3: change your life. I think it was like a door

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Speaker 3: opened to kind of think more clearly about what I

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Speaker 3: wanted to do.

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Speaker 2: But I could have carried on.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 3: I think I think it is a combination of turning

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Speaker 3: points and then steps after that, And then I guess

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Speaker 3: I had another turning point on my very first vision.

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Speaker 3: It to Bhutan in two thousand and eleven when I

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Speaker 3: met a monk here, and so I think those two

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Speaker 3: turning points feel quite connected to me.

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Speaker 2: It feels like.

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Speaker 3: One was very tough and made me question everything, and

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Speaker 3: one was very amazing and made me feel very.

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Speaker 2: Clear about everything.

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Speaker 3: So I feel like there's actually two turning points, but

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Speaker 3: they were quite quite long years apart.

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Speaker 1: I feel like, and this is just my perspective, so

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Speaker 1: i'd love yours like I think a lot about the

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Speaker 1: human experience, obviously with my research with the brain and

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Speaker 1: the mind and human behavior and who we are and

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Speaker 1: how we are and why I think the way I think,

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Speaker 1: and where my stories come from. And you know how

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Speaker 1: I see the world, Like there's the world and then

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Speaker 1: there's my view of the world, and they're different things.

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Speaker 1: That's you and I are in the same conversation, but

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Speaker 1: we're not in the same experience because you don't live

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Speaker 1: in my head or thoughts or ideas or beliefs, and

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Speaker 1: I don't live in yours. I feel like it's it's

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Speaker 1: a lot of us. And this might sound judgmental, I

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Speaker 1: don't mean it too, because I think it was me

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Speaker 1: for a lot of my life and probably is still

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Speaker 1: at times we tend to do life on almost like

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Speaker 1: an unconscious auto pilot, where we just kind of get

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Speaker 1: up and do what we did yesterday, even though it

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Speaker 1: wasn't particularly fulfilling or joyful or meaningful, or it's just

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Speaker 1: like we're in this almost this cognitive groove or this

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Speaker 1: behavioral groove, and we don't kind of think, what do

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Speaker 1: I want the next one, two, five, ten years of

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Speaker 1: my life to look? Like? Like what is my what

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Speaker 1: is my purpose?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 1: Do I have a purpose? What does that mean? Is

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Speaker 1: am I meant to be doing the thing that I'm doing?

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Speaker 1: Not in a self loathing way or a self critical way,

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Speaker 1: but in a almost like a self awareness way, like

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Speaker 1: I'll shut up after this. But one of my stories

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Speaker 1: is I built this quite successful business when I was

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Speaker 1: pretty young, and then by the time I was thirty,

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Speaker 1: I had a bunch of businesses in a of employees

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Speaker 1: and a bunch of money. And in the middle of

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Speaker 1: all of that, I'm like, Oh, this doesn't feel that

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Speaker 1: amazing at all, and not that maken dough and not

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Speaker 1: that having employees and building a brand is bad. Of course,

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Speaker 1: it's like, ah, because I think I kind of had

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Speaker 1: this idea that I probably never really examined that when

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Speaker 1: I have all this external stuff, then all this internal

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Speaker 1: stuff will be great didn't work.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guess I'd say a couple of

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Speaker 2: things there.

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Speaker 3: Firstly, you know, so I've just spent quite a lot

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Speaker 3: of time in rural Bhutan with people who live as

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Speaker 3: subsistence farmers, right, and they definitely have to get up

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Speaker 3: every day and do the same thing, and their lives

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Speaker 3: are harsh.

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Speaker 2: And you know, this is a subsistence line start.

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Speaker 3: So I would first of all say that if you

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Speaker 3: have the good fortune to be in a situation where

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Speaker 3: you have the chance to think again about those getting

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Speaker 3: up doing the same thing, where you have a choice

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Speaker 3: to change that, I think it's wonderful. But for many

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Speaker 3: people in the world living very subsistence lifestyle, they don't

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Speaker 3: actually have that choice, to be frank, because they need

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Speaker 3: to put the potatoes in the earth and then harvest

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Speaker 3: those potatoes. And you know, so I think first of all,

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Speaker 3: we should remember that even if we're having this conversation,

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Speaker 3: we're already pretty lucky to be able to have that conversation.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, yeah, true, Yeah, So.

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Speaker 3: Let's just remember that for you know, for a minute.

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Speaker 3: But obviously, you know, external things are very helpful. It's

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Speaker 3: really helpful to have a central eating system, it's really

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Speaker 3: helpful to have nice dentist to go to. And I

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Speaker 3: don't think we should start to loathe the external things. Yes,

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Speaker 3: they support us, they help us, they keep us safe.

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Speaker 3: It's like Maslow's hierarchy of human need. So I'm sure

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Speaker 3: you'd have studied that in your time, right, So we

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Speaker 3: have to have those basic needs fulfilled. And if they

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Speaker 3: are fulfilled, then yes, maybe we get the opportunity to

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Speaker 3: think more deeply about what it is to be human

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Speaker 3: and how happiness arises. But we should I think it's

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Speaker 3: dangerous to take in a sort of two extreme position

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Speaker 3: where we imagine that external things don't matter.

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Speaker 2: That it doesn't matter if you don't have a house

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Speaker 2: or you know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: But it's just a limit to how far those things

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Speaker 3: can give us permanent, unchanging happiness.

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Speaker 2: They just can't. But that's kind of quite handy.

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Speaker 1: One. I like the fact that I have a car

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Speaker 1: and a house. They're quite handy, and beds are good

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Speaker 1: and air conditioning in Australia air conditioning is good, and

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Speaker 1: also food is nice, so yeah, I guess. I guess

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Speaker 1: I think like that. Maybe what I meant was some

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Speaker 1: of us grow up in a kind of a collective

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Speaker 1: cultural kind of thing that success is about things, you know,

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Speaker 1: happiness is about things. It's about your stuff, what you have,

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Speaker 1: what you earn, what you own, what you drive, where

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Speaker 1: you live, what people think of you, what you look like.

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Speaker 1: How many Instagram followers you have, I don't know, if

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Speaker 1: there's Instagram and Bhutan.

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Speaker 2: You know, Instagram is huge and biton it's huge. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I guess it's just more that maybe more

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Speaker 1: awareness than judgment, you know, where it's like, yeah, that's great,

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Speaker 1: you've got all that stuff. That's good. But also and

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Speaker 1: I think for me it was that, you know, but

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Speaker 1: also yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean I think it's always really you know, actually

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Speaker 3: most humans actually understand this stuff. I think when you

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Speaker 3: really talk to somebody properly and they understand this stuff.

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Speaker 3: Everybody knows when they're on their deathbed, yeah, that whatever

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Speaker 3: car they have is not going to help them. And

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Speaker 3: they also know that it that won't be the thing

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Speaker 3: that it's hard to leave, right.

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Speaker 2: They know that. Yes, So I think it's often I.

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Speaker 3: Know it may be sound a bit more bid, But

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Speaker 3: it's if you really want to get to the heart

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Speaker 3: of the matter, just think of what's going to matter

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Speaker 3: to you at the point of dying, and you can

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Speaker 3: pretty much work things out from there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So what is the day to day for

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Speaker 1: Emma the Buddhist? None? The day? Like? What do you?

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Speaker 1: What do you? What do you do?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 1: How does your life work?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Could you keep up with it? Craig, I think

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Speaker 2: that's the question. I'm thinking. Maybe you probably could from

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Speaker 2: the time I'd been spending.

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Speaker 1: With you, but I mean I definitely couldn't you overestimate me?

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Speaker 1: Lower your expectations?

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Speaker 3: Well, I guess, you know, if we really think of

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Speaker 3: the question. For you know, one thing I think about

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Speaker 3: a lot. Is it better that I remain in the world,

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Speaker 3: very active and helping in the world, you know, with

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Speaker 3: actions and fundraising.

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Speaker 2: And speaking to people, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: Or is it better to go into solitary retreat and meditate.

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Speaker 2: Is that the better way as a monastic?

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Speaker 5: Not?

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Speaker 2: I think usually people don't have.

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Speaker 3: That dilemma, But as a monastic, that's our basic dilemma.

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Speaker 3: Do we stay helping in the world or are we

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Speaker 3: more helpful to the world if we're in meditation retreat

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Speaker 3: or some combination of those two. So basically my life

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Speaker 3: is some combination of those two. That's the kind of

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Speaker 3: contract I've drawn with things. Right, So I've been you know,

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Speaker 3: as you know, I've been doing this incredible walk across

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Speaker 3: butan not that it should be called a walk, it

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Speaker 3: should be called a massive climb across Darlp Mountains. Just

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Speaker 3: raised a lot of money for special needs children. But

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Speaker 3: now from February, I'll be in a three month solitary

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Speaker 3: retreat in the.

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Speaker 2: Mountains of Bhutan.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: So you know, my life can be either very active

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Speaker 3: in the world helping a lot, or it can be

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Speaker 3: very disciplined in strict meditation retreat. Because I'm unusual for

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Speaker 3: a monastic, because I'm quite you know, I'm like a

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Speaker 3: bit like I'm on rocket fuel, so I can do

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Speaker 3: a lot in the world. I think, I don't mind

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Speaker 3: speaking to people, and I'm mind organizing stuff. I don't

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Speaker 3: mind getting stuff done in the world. So you know,

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Speaker 3: I had those two sides to my personality, I think,

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Speaker 3: because so that's that's my world. So day to day,

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Speaker 3: if I'm in the world, it will be I could

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Speaker 3: be translating stuff helping to translate things from Tibetan. I

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Speaker 3: could be helping children with special needs.

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Speaker 2: I could be talking to somebody like you.

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Speaker 3: If I'm in a retreat, then I'll be up at

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Speaker 3: four in the morning and I'll be meditating and praying

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Speaker 3: for around eleven hours a day, all seated, seeing no

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Speaker 3: one and just training my mind.

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Speaker 1: Wow, eleven hours a day for three months. Yeah, yeah, yeah, wow.

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Speaker 1: Tell me, Okay, tell me about this.

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Speaker 2: That stopped you in your tracks.

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Speaker 4: No, no, no, feless All right, right, well done, well done,

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Speaker 4: em I'll tell you what for a none? Goodness, I'm

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Speaker 4: not your normal No, no, you are not. No, I've

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Speaker 4: met none like you. See what I did there, I've

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Speaker 4: met like you. Tell me about the mind.

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Speaker 1: I'm you know, I've just spent six years studying a

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Speaker 1: part of the mind, that human behavior thinking, and I'm

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Speaker 1: fascinated to tell me about how you explore your own mind,

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Speaker 1: how you understand the self that's in the middle of

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Speaker 1: you know you, you know, what does that even mean?

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Speaker 1: How do you explore your mind?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what is that? What does that look like?

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Speaker 3: And it's difficult because the minute we call it the mind,

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Speaker 3: we make it an object.

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Speaker 1: Yes, like a fixed.

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Speaker 3: Object, right, So just I mean we have to use

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Speaker 3: the word to mind, but in a way that's already problematic.

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Speaker 3: There's just a moment by moment, a rising of thought

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Speaker 3: moment by moment.

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Speaker 2: But the question of whether it comes.

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Speaker 3: From something that we can call a mind that already

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Speaker 3: that's a tricky tricky thing.

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Speaker 2: I think if we're going to bring things back to

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Speaker 2: sort of basic Buddhist principle, we would say that there's

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Speaker 2: a part of your being which is already.

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Speaker 3: How can you say, clear and awakened and without any confusion,

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Speaker 3: but around it, if you like, if we imagine it

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Speaker 3: like that, which is a bit crude, but anyway, but

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Speaker 3: around this, there's like layers which cover it, and those

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Speaker 3: layers are selfishness or self clinging.

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Speaker 2: Greed and anger.

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Speaker 3: And for most of our life we interact with those

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Speaker 3: layers and they pull and they push us.

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Speaker 2: Right, that's kind of what a human life is like

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Speaker 2: from a Buddh's point of view.

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Speaker 3: We believe, with study and meditation and development of more compassion, etc.

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Speaker 3: That we can break through those layers and discover a

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Speaker 3: part of our being which is like, how can you

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Speaker 3: say it's a part of our being that could become awakened,

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Speaker 3: could become a Buddha.

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Speaker 2: And so that's.

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Speaker 3: A mental activity which is no longer under the pull

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Speaker 3: and push of anger, greed, and self clinging, because most

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Speaker 3: of the time, all of our mental activity is in that, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: in those areas.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know if this question is going to

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Speaker 1: make sense, But tell me about the knowing and the

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Speaker 1: understanding and the wisdom that we have that we've never

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Speaker 1: been taught. Yeah, So that's like, yeah, that's there.

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Speaker 2: That's definitely there.

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Speaker 3: It's definitely there, and I believe it's there for all

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Speaker 3: of us to discover for ourselves. And I think once

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Speaker 3: you have some kind of glimpse of that, then you're

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Speaker 3: already you've already stepped out from a lot of things

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Speaker 3: which otherwise will like there'll be like the tail wagging

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Speaker 3: the dog, right, yes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but.

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Speaker 3: Whether we call that knowing and that wisdom, the mind

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Speaker 3: becomes complicated.

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Speaker 2: I think it's but there is that wisdom there for sure. Definitely.

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Speaker 1: I feel like the mind is. Yeah, Like it's like

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Speaker 1: when we get any word, but we'll go with this

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Speaker 1: four letter word M I N D. Right, it means

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Speaker 1: different things to different people. Absolutely, it's like love what

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Speaker 1: is love? It means different things to different people. It's like,

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Speaker 1: well that's stressful. What is you know? It's like there

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Speaker 1: are so many and because we have our own version

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Speaker 1: of what love is, or what the mind is, or

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Speaker 1: what knowledge is, or what good or bad is or

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Speaker 1: you know, and these are all subjective interpretations by different individuals. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's really hard to find any kind of universal alignment.

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Speaker 1: But you know, and then and then, you know, I think,

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Speaker 1: almost ironically, the mind is the thing that gets in

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Speaker 1: the way. You know, overthinking can get in the way, Like, well,

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Speaker 1: maybe that wisdom, that insight, that genius that lives through

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Speaker 1: me and doesn't come from me, Maybe that's got nothing

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Speaker 1: to do with my mind. Maybe that's just me being

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Speaker 1: able to access something that isn't me. But I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Like I was having a chat just before with a

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Speaker 1: friend of mine who speaks on stage. We both speak

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Speaker 1: on stage a lot. I do a lot of you know,

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Speaker 1: public and corporate speaking, and there are times when you know,

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Speaker 1: I'll do a three hour workshop and I start not often,

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Speaker 1: by the way, but it's usually somewhere between okay and

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Speaker 1: pretty good. But there have been a few times where

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Speaker 1: I look up in three hours have gone and it

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Speaker 1: feels like twenty minutes and I'm like, where did that go?

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Speaker 1: It's like, you know, time is a constant, but our

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Speaker 1: experience of time is a variable, right, and so how

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Speaker 1: time seems to me? And then I've spoken for three hours.

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Speaker 1: But it's almost like that that what came out or

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Speaker 1: what transpired was almost in spite of me, not because

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Speaker 1: of me. It's like there was some flow state that,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't know. I just feel like there's

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Speaker 1: a wisdom and an intelligence and a love and I

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Speaker 1: don't know what the right word is, but that's accessible

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Speaker 1: to us if we can get to that point.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean one hundred percent. You know, I think

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Speaker 3: the flow stage is very interesting, and I do hear

388
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:09,400
Speaker 3: about it from, you know, from people, so I think

389
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Speaker 3: it's it. There's a lot of links between Buddhist ideas

390
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Speaker 3: of meditation and things like this flow stage. When we're

391
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Speaker 3: in retreat, actually time goes very very slowly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah wow.

393
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Speaker 3: So mostly in daily life, our life, you just got

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Speaker 3: oh well today went like that, Oh my god, Like

395
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Speaker 3: people are like, it's Christmas?

396
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Speaker 2: How can they be Christmas? I feel like it was

397
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Speaker 2: just or whatever.

398
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Speaker 3: Right, So in retreat, time goes incredibly slowly, which I

399
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Speaker 3: found is kind of interesting in terms of your this,

400
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Speaker 3: you know, our perception of our perception of time. I

401
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 3: think that if we recognize the potential that you're talking about,

402
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,240
Speaker 3: the potential to you know, be in flow, love, wisdom,

403
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,199
Speaker 3: whatever these wonderful words are, I think the question is

404
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,480
Speaker 3: just how are you going to get there? So, as

405
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Speaker 3: a monatic, what's nice is we have like a roadmap. Yeah,

406
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,119
Speaker 3: so what I want to know is how how do

407
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Speaker 3: you get that?

408
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:07,879
Speaker 2: Great? How are you going to make that happen?

409
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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, Well it's funny. I grew up in a

410
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Speaker 1: very Christian household, so you know, different path to yours.

411
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Speaker 1: And I'm I would call myself, I don't know what

412
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Speaker 1: I am agnostic now. I'm definitely not the golden child

413
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Speaker 1: of Christianity, that's for sure, as you can tell. Okay,

414
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Speaker 1: but I still, like, you know, I have a certain

415
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Speaker 1: faith and belief and part of that for me is

416
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Speaker 1: I you know, I have to identify all my own

417
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Speaker 1: human garbage, my ego, my insecurity, my fear, my need

418
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Speaker 1: for attention, all of that, which is it's never disappearing,

419
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Speaker 1: right it. The volume gets louder and softer, but I

420
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Speaker 1: recognize that, and so I basically say a little prayer,

421
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,400
Speaker 1: and my prayer would be something like, I don't want

422
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Speaker 1: this to be about me at all, and I just

423
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Speaker 1: want I just want to be a value and service

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Speaker 1: to the people. And if something amazing happens for those people,

425
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Speaker 1: that is great, but that isn't about me, and it's

426
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Speaker 1: not for me. So I think for me, it depends

427
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 1: a lot on my intention and my attitude. Like, yeah,

428
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Speaker 1: so I have this capacity, as you probably you know,

429
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Speaker 1: where I can be cheeky and funny and a good storyteller.

430
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Speaker 1: So there's all, you know, the kragon stage, there's a skill,

431
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 1: the knowledge, the academic stuff, the butupp apart, that's all

432
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 1: somewhat very human and performative to an extent, you know.

433
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Speaker 1: And the dichotomy is also, as a professional speaker, you

434
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:51,639
Speaker 1: can't get up there and be boring. So you've got

435
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:53,440
Speaker 1: to be entertaining. You've got to be a little bit funny.

436
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 1: You've got to be able to tell stories, build rapport,

437
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 1: build connection, read the room. You've got to do all

438
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,919
Speaker 1: of that skill based stuff as well as try and

439
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 1: not just be a performer, like try and be a

440
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:12,440
Speaker 1: real aligned human, a bit vulnerable, and like I talk

441
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 1: about my myriad of shortcomings and failures and issues NonStop,

442
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 1: and not because I hate me, but because I want

443
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 1: people to realize how unspectacular I am, so that I

444
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 1: might be more relatable and they might go, Craig's done. Okay,

445
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 1: he's also an idiot. Maybe I could do okay, you know.

446
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, but as you say, you know, whatever skill you have,

447
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 3: if we can use it, but with that intention to

448
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 3: help many beings, you know, yes, with that idea of service,

449
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 3: I'm genuinely wanting to offer what we have to help others.

450
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 3: Then that's that's great. I mean, that's great. We should

451
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 3: not use our talents we have to. We've allays given talents,

452
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 3: we've all been given things that can help in the world.

453
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 3: Just the question is is it only helping you or

454
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 3: are you using those talents to help many people?

455
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 2: That's it?

456
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think for me when I was young,

457
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 1: I was quite because when I was growing up, I

458
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 1: was a morbidly obese kid and a whole lot of stuff,

459
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 1: and off the back of that, lots of issues, lots

460
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: of insecurity, So I became very self focused and selfish

461
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: only child. All this stuff, and I kind of realized

462
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,880
Speaker 1: over time that I needed to have a purpose bigger

463
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:42,479
Speaker 1: than me and had when I kind of opened that

464
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 1: door and tried to be, you know, a value and

465
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 1: service to just more than myself, I'm like, oh, this

466
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 1: is actually this is where I feel most alive, This

467
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: is where I feel most aligned, you know. But yeah,

468
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: that so that was just experiential and.

469
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's great that you worked it out, though,

470
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 3: I mean, isn't it great? That's the journey. We're all

471
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 3: on this journey. But I think the more the more

472
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 3: kind of awake you get, the more of service you

473
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 3: want to be. Your own failings that continue to be there.

474
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 3: They can get quite painful, They can feel quite painful,

475
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 3: and often my teacher has to say to me, you know,

476
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,400
Speaker 3: just see where you are now, See where you are now,

477
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 3: understand clearly where you are now? Right you know you've

478
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 3: moved this far. You know you've moved this far, and

479
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,119
Speaker 3: you'll carry on moving. But right now, you're not completely perfect,

480
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 3: right so I think we But it's just when you

481
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,199
Speaker 3: try your hardest to be a good human being and

482
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 3: serve O, there's your own failings. Somehow they strike you

483
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,120
Speaker 3: so clearly far more so than when you were being

484
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 3: selfish like whatever you called it earlier on right, you

485
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 3: couldn't see them then at that point, right, you're so

486
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 3: covered in layers a delusion at that point. But I

487
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 3: think it's quite natural at that point, you know, just see,

488
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 3: just accept I'm here now, I've been on this journey.

489
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 3: I've got to hear. I'm not kind of finished yet,

490
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 3: and you're still the weaknesses that are they're the failings

491
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 3: that are there, whatever you want to call them, They

492
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 3: too will go in time. But sometimes it can just

493
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 3: be very painful to realize you're still not completely there yet,

494
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 3: you haven't finished your journey yet.

495
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: When you were a young up and coming corporate superstar,

496
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 1: and could you have imagined, you know, thirty years later

497
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: or whatever it is, that you'd be talking to some

498
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 1: guy in Australia, you'd be in Britan and you would

499
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: spend eleven hours a day for months on end in

500
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 1: silent meditation and prayer, and could would now.

501
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 3: If yeah, now, I was always very interested in Buddhism,

502
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 3: even as a child. I was always very interested in

503
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 3: images of the Buddhist sitting down meditating. I was always

504
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,120
Speaker 3: really fascinated with what is that person doing and why

505
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:03,360
Speaker 3: does he look so happy?

506
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 2: Right?

507
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 3: But no, I could never have thought that the way

508
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 3: my life is turned out and look and looks now,

509
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 3: And you know, I think occasionally I have those moments

510
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 3: when you're like, Okay, you could have been a CEO.

511
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 2: You could have been actually pretty rich right now.

512
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 3: You could have probably had some incredible, swanky house with

513
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 3: somebody doing your laundry, and you know, it's just like unbelievable.

514
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 3: But that that could have been my life. That could have.

515
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 2: Been who I am today.

516
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 3: So sometimes it's quite useful to think about the paths

517
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 3: you chose not to take, as well as the paths

518
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 3: you chose to take.

519
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 2: I think it's both helpful to be aware of.

520
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: Tell me about if you would your family and how

521
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: they responded to your left turn, your radical left turn

522
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: in life. I'm just teating, Hey, everyone enjoy that path.

523
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 1: I'll be over here in Weedsmell, just wearing like, you

524
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: know whatever, doing whatever.

525
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 2: I don't know.

526
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 3: It's funny, you know, because when I was in when

527
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 3: I was in investment banking, my mom didn't understand what

528
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 3: I did, right, She's like, I don't really know. She's

529
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 3: something like a stockbroker, and I was nothing like a stockbroker. Actually,

530
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 3: so now she's like, I don't know she but it's

531
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 3: not I don't really know what she does, right, So

532
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 3: actually I think they were confused by pretty much everything

533
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 3: I did in my life. I think everybody gets the charity.

534
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 3: Everybody understands if somebody is going out of their way

535
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 3: year after year to help others with the charity.

536
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 2: I think that everybody gets, yeah, right, So I think

537
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 2: the charity they understand.

538
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 3: I think that it hasn't always been easy for my family, yes,

539
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 3: to understand what I've done. Mostly, I think we find

540
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 3: it easy to put ourselves in the shoes of others,

541
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 3: you know, Like I feel like I can imagine what

542
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 3: it's like to be a bus driver or a.

543
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 2: Gardener or whatever.

544
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 3: I think it is quite hard to understand and know

545
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 3: what it's like to be a monastic. Yes, So I

546
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 3: think my mum always imagined that I would get married

547
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 3: and have like a nice house in the country in

548
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 3: England with a nice person that had a big life

549
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 3: insurance policy or something, I don't know what, you know,

550
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 3: Like she wanted that kind of life for me, So

551
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 3: I guess she was probably a bit worried because you know,

552
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 3: there's no pension with being a fanastic, right, So I

553
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 3: think you know, your parents always want you to be safe,

554
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 3: like you said, like the things we were talking at

555
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 3: the beginning.

556
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 2: They want you to have food, they want you to

557
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 2: have a roof, they want inter things.

558
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 3: So I think she meant it may have been a

559
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 3: bit worried that in some way it's going to be

560
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 3: more vulnerable as a result of my decisions.

561
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously.

562
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 3: I've made the right decision absolutely for me, and I

563
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 3: think they you know, as I say, they respect it,

564
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 3: but I think it from where I started in my life,

565
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 3: born by the sea in England, in Whitstable to a

566
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 3: mother who was a housewife and a father who worked

567
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 3: in insurance, you know, to have the oldest child end

568
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 3: up as a Buddhist nun.

569
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 2: In Bhutan doing what I do. Yeah, it's quite a leap.

570
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 4: You know.

571
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. How many how many what is lunds do you

572
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: make who have a similar story to yours? Who are

573
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: who are Westerners who now live in Bhutan or somewhere

574
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: else in the world.

575
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 2: I'm the only one in Bhutan for sure. In Bhtan. Yeah,

576
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 2: there is now a there's two Western monks here. One

577
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 2: is American and the other one I haven't met.

578
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 3: I'm not sure his nationality, but I'm certainly the only female.

579
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 3: There are obviously quite a number of Western women who

580
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 3: have become Himalayan Vadriana Buddhist practitioners monastics, and they mainly

581
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 3: live in India, maybe Daramsalah or other places around the world.

582
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 3: I don't know how many of them there are, but

583
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 3: they definitely there's definitely a lot of them. But you know,

584
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 3: you how can you say it's like being a zebra

585
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 3: in a group of elephants? Right, So, if you're somebody

586
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 3: who's born in the West and is ordained in a

587
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 3: Buddhist country in the east, you know you're never going

588
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 3: to be surrounded by thousands of you. There's there's not

589
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 3: there's not going to be tons of us.

590
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: Right, yes? And how how are you received by you know,

591
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: how is the zebra received by the elephants?

592
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 3: I think it's received fine. I mean it's taken some while.

593
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 3: I've had to be very determined and also very lucky.

594
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 3: My karma, as we would talk about karma, definitely arises

595
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 3: in Bhutan, which is where sometimes the power of our

596
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 3: place can be really important. And obviously they know how

597
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 3: much work I do to help the country and the

598
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 3: children of the country, so I think I'm very appreciated

599
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 3: for that. But if you're the only one you know,

600
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 3: you're always going to be breaking down preconceptions, You're always

601
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 3: going to be establishing new grounds, new ideas of what's possible.

602
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 3: And I probably have had to do that a bit.

603
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 3: In terms of being a Western woman here in Bhutan, m.

604
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: Tell me about karma. Tell the westerner about karma. Explain

605
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 1: that to me.

606
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 3: Karma is just the natural consequence of previous actions continuing

607
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 3: to arise. It's arising all the time, even as we speak.

608
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 3: Karma is what we would say ripening. So it can

609
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 3: ripen and cause suffering, it can ripen and cause happiness.

610
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 3: It's a bit like we think about time. You know,

611
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 3: we can't take ourselves out of time, right time is

612
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 3: it's a It's just the same with karma.

613
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 2: Karma is just it's just ripening. And so yeah, that's

614
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 2: that's karma. We're all riding on the wave of garma.

615
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: What does Buddhism teach I don't know if this is

616
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 1: the right question. So you get the gist of my questions.

617
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 1: But what does Buddhism teach about our desire for happiness?

618
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 1: It's like it's almost like the universal goal, like nobody's

619
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 1: goal is to be miserable or said, everybody wants to

620
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:10,280
Speaker 1: be happy?

621
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 2: Is okay, Well we just leave it right there for

622
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 2: a second. Let's just question that for a second. Right,

623
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 2: let's just question that.

624
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,839
Speaker 3: Sure, because you've studied the mind, right you said, You've

625
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 3: said psychology and all this kind of stuff, So we

626
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:28,800
Speaker 3: know that the human mind has this negative bias, right, yes, yeah,

627
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,359
Speaker 3: So with that negativity bias, you know, and often people say,

628
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:38,399
Speaker 3: like I don't know, we say three critical things we meant,

629
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 3: you know, say, let me see, like somebody might say, okay,

630
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,359
Speaker 3: three people said something positive, but you remember the one

631
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 3: one thing.

632
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: That somebody said it was negative? Right, So I'm going

633
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,479
Speaker 2: to question that. I'm going to question is.

634
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 3: Our human brain at this point really wired for happiness

635
00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 3: because I don't know that it is.

636
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I don't think it is either. I think

637
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 1: your brain is wired to primarily keep you safe.

638
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,320
Speaker 2: And it's about averting threat right.

639
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, predicting threats and danger and identifying threats and danger.

640
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: So yeah, and I agree with you. I think the

641
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: expectation that we would be perpetually and maybe even regularly

642
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: happy is not always the most logical expectation, you know,

643
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: or goal.

644
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 2: I think we should just accept. Let's and I don't

645
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,800
Speaker 2: know if this is right, but let's just say yeah

646
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 2: that right now, the human is still wired to be

647
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 2: largely unhappy.

648
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's actually because of that that we're also

649
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 3: desperate to be happy, right, because it's not our natural state.

650
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 3: It's actually isn't something that comes easily or automatically to us.

651
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 1: Wow, that's such a It's like I know that, but

652
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 1: when you say that, it's like, happiness is not our

653
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: natural state? That is?

654
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 2: I mean, wouldn't it help if we just admitted that.

655
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very insightful and the you know when Yeah,

656
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:21,439
Speaker 1: that's it. I'm just writing that down because I think

657
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:25,359
Speaker 1: that's going to be the title of this conversation. But well,

658
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, and it's clearly you know, happiness and

659
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 1: joy and fun and connection. And I think like when

660
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,439
Speaker 1: I talk to people and I'm not guru, I'm still

661
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,320
Speaker 1: a student, right, I don't I would I would happily.

662
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 1: I'm probably going to learn more from you than you

663
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: would ever learn from me. And I don't say that

664
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: disingenuously right, Like it seems to me like what a

665
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 1: lot of people really want is just not to be

666
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 1: anxious anymore, like whatever that looks like, like I just

667
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: want to be Like so many people that I talk

668
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 1: to are overthinkers. Like there's just this the chaotic mind,

669
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: the overthinking, the anxiety, the rumination, which then has a

670
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: physiological consequence of heart rate and breathing and adrenaline and

671
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 1: cortisol and sympathetic nervous system and all of this physical elevation.

672
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 1: You know. It's like thought, You know, thoughts and emotions

673
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 1: and physiology the body are one system, not three, Like

674
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 1: everything operates and effects. You know. It's like your thought

675
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 1: will have a physical consequence. If somebody is listening to

676
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 1: this and right now they think they're in danger, and

677
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,359
Speaker 1: they believe they're in danger but they're not, then there

678
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 1: will be a corresponding physical response despite the fact that

679
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 1: there is no danger. So what caused the physical response

680
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 1: was not the situation or circumstance or the reality of

681
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 1: the situation, but rather a thought. And so try to

682
00:38:54,520 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 1: navigate life with that kind of sometimes chaotic internal landscape Yeah,

683
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 1: that's interesting.

684
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:06,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's why.

685
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 3: You know, but we're very wired to that, aren't we.

686
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 3: That way of thinking is very seductive. It goes right

687
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 3: into that basic hard wiring of ours. And that's why

688
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 3: sometimes I say, Okay, does the human race really want

689
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 3: to be peaceful?

690
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 2: Do they really want that?

691
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 3: Because it's not very seductive. Nothing happens when you're peaceful.

692
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 3: There's no drama, there's nothing to talk about, there's no

693
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 3: crisis to define yourself as a result of, there's no

694
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 3: emergencies to share with anybody.

695
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 2: It's pretty dull.

696
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 1: Wow wow, wow, what Why don't we want pace?

697
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 3: Seems like I just don't know that we're wired to

698
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,720
Speaker 3: be peaceful creatures right now. And I think a peaceful

699
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 3: state is if we look at the activities of humans.

700
00:39:57,880 --> 00:39:59,800
Speaker 2: I'm just saying that if you really want to be

701
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 2: pe there may be quite a lot of steps to

702
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 2: go down. And bear in mind that being peaceful.

703
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 3: Is not very exciting, and people seem very interested in excitement.

704
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 1: That is that is really that is something? Yeah, And

705
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 1: also you know, you have a look at generally, have

706
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 1: a look at the world, there's not a whole lot

707
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:26,879
Speaker 1: of peace.

708
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 3: No, So I think we had to become we have

709
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 3: to be Okay, so we say, all right, humans want

710
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 3: to be peaceful, humans want to be happy. Really, are

711
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 3: we white for that? Can we really look at our

712
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 3: species right now and say that's honestly true? The evidence

713
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 3: would argue otherwise, sadly, So.

714
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 1: When you ask are we wired for that? Are you

715
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 1: asking is that the way that our brain works? Is

716
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 1: that our biochemistry?

717
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 2: Yeah? Partially, yeah, because.

718
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:56,839
Speaker 3: I don't think we are white for that, right right?

719
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 3: I mean that's not the case. Our cognitive function, our

720
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 3: frontal cortex is the smallest part of our brain.

721
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 2: It's the part that gets tired most easily.

722
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 3: And I think often when people are overwhelmed, they're anxious,

723
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 3: all these states that are very common for people. As

724
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 3: you've just explained, we know they're not in their frontal

725
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 3: cortex anymore.

726
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 2: They're not in their executive.

727
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 3: Function, right, So I think there is a piece around

728
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 3: that biological evidence for sure.

729
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 1: Yeah. I always talk about my prefrontal cortex being hijacked

730
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 1: by mayamigdala. You know, so you're like.

731
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 5: Yeah all the time, right, all the time, Yeah, all

732
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 5: the time. Not just you, but you know, most of us.

733
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 5: So I think it is clearly to everyone's benefit.

734
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,320
Speaker 3: If somebody is happy, they benefit the people around them, benefit,

735
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:57,959
Speaker 3: their partner, their family, their community. I'm just saying that,

736
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 3: I think we have to be honest about some of

737
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 3: the biology one might be fighting, and therefore the deliberate

738
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 3: nature of our path to happiness, because I think sometimes

739
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 3: when I read about happiness, I think some people think

740
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,280
Speaker 3: it's just your kind of like your basic human state.

741
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 3: I don't think it is our basic human state. That's

742
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:21,839
Speaker 3: all I'm saying that. I think you can get it.

743
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,879
Speaker 3: I think you can accomplish it. I think you may

744
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:27,399
Speaker 3: have to use methods to get there, but I don't

745
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 3: think we should see that. I think that we are

746
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 3: inherently happy, and somehow we haven't worked that out yet.

747
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 3: I think it's that's probably not accurate. Yeah, from a

748
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 3: Buddhist point of view. You know, if you're most of

749
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 3: your happiness once you have your woof and you have

750
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 3: your food and you have your heating and whatever, most

751
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 3: of it will, as you say, come from the whatever

752
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 3: this thing is that we're calling the mind, your stream

753
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 3: of mental activity, that will be the prime determine of

754
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 3: your level of happiness.

755
00:42:59,080 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 6: Yeah.

756
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you in most communities in the world, well

757
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 1: in kind of you know, Australia and England and America

758
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: and Canada and most of our countries, well a lot

759
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:18,399
Speaker 1: of maybe not. I was going to say that there's

760
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 1: huge mental health issues, you know, anxiety, depression, you know, sleeplessness,

761
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: and like a lot of people with a lot of

762
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 1: medication to you know, try to deal with and it's growing,

763
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 1: it's getting bigger, and it's it's despite all this information

764
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 1: and education, it's not resolving itself. And what I'm imagining,

765
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 1: that's not the case within the Buddhist community.

766
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 3: Oh no, I think it is. I mean I think that,

767
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:57,240
Speaker 3: and that's why I feel very much that it's slightly

768
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 3: dangerous to say these people are suffering from mental or

769
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 3: health and these people aren't. Because unless you are never

770
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:14,760
Speaker 3: afflicted by you know, anger, jealousy, greed, confusion, anxiety, worry,

771
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 3: I mean pretty much every human is going to be

772
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 3: subject to that, right.

773
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:20,920
Speaker 2: So I think it's more.

774
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 3: About recognizing the basic human condition, which, like the Buddha said,

775
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 3: is one unfortunately of mental suffering.

776
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 2: I mean, that's what the Buddha said, right, and so

777
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:31,800
Speaker 2: most of us are mentally suffering to some degree.

778
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 3: It's the degree that differs, right, it's the degree that differs. Yes,

779
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 3: So here in Bhuton, you know, they're not without that

780
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:46,240
Speaker 3: mental suffering, definitely, for sure they're not. But I think

781
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 3: that the pace of life here remains slower.

782
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,800
Speaker 2: The community feeling is very, very strong.

783
00:44:54,880 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 3: The fabric of community support is huge here y, So

784
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 3: I think that maybe it's not as intense as some

785
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 3: places in the world, but obviously we still see it here,

786
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,359
Speaker 3: you know, because it's part of the human.

787
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 2: Condition.

788
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 3: It's part of the challenge of being a human is

789
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 3: how do you deal with your own mind?

790
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:23,959
Speaker 1: Yeah? How long after your nine ninety seven being held

791
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 1: at gunpoint experience, did you decide that you wanted to

792
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: change the way you do life?

793
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 3: So I had to recover first, right, it was a

794
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 3: big thing to recover from, Okay, and.

795
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 2: That really took some time.

796
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 3: So I think, let me see now, it was about

797
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 3: eighteen months later that I decided to resign, and then

798
00:45:53,680 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 3: I basically traveled around the world learning about yoga, which

799
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 3: is just the most wonderful thing. I think yoga is

800
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 3: the most powerful healing and kind of centering tool in

801
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 3: the world. And so that was really the start of

802
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 3: my journey.

803
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 2: It also involved going to Barron Bay.

804
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 3: I lived in Barron Bay for quite a few months,

805
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:17,720
Speaker 3: so Australia was part.

806
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 2: Of my journey.

807
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 1: Hippies would have fit right in.

808
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I think, you know you, I had to

809
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 3: digest all the consequences of that trauma properly. I had

810
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 3: to recover in order to see clearly what the next

811
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:38,879
Speaker 3: step might have been. So it would not have been

812
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:40,879
Speaker 3: a good idea in a way for me to come

813
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,879
Speaker 3: out of the hostage situation and the next day you've

814
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:44,319
Speaker 3: become up.

815
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 2: It is not I think that would have been a

816
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 2: sure recipe for disaster, because trauma's changed you and they

817
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 2: need to be kind of integrated into the whole of

818
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 2: you as part of your history, as you know, part of.

819
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 3: Your jour and only then I think, can you begin

820
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 3: to see a new way forward.

821
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:09,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, beautiful. Tell me about your walk four hundred

822
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 1: and three kilometers. It doesn't sound like it was a

823
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 1: stroll around the park, and as you kind of alluded to,

824
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 1: it's not like we're going for four hundred and three

825
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:22,239
Speaker 1: kilometers around suburban Melbourne like this is. This is a

826
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: very what a complicated trek in the middle of wilderness.

827
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:31,799
Speaker 1: This is not a stroll. Why did you do that? Why?

828
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 1: I know why you did it, but tell us a

829
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 1: little bit about it.

830
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 2: So I've had a few moments in my life when

831
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 2: I've just stood still and known something.

832
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:46,840
Speaker 7: Yeah, And I was crossing a bridge in London, I

833
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 7: don't know, maybe a year and a half ago, and

834
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 7: in the middle of that bridge, everything became very quiet,

835
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 7: even though I was in the middle of London, and

836
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 7: I just knew at that point I needed to walk

837
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 7: across Butan from west to east.

838
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 2: And I didn't know why. It wasn't to do with

839
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 2: the charity.

840
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,439
Speaker 3: I just occasionally you get I think in your life,

841
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:10,359
Speaker 3: you get these thunderbolt moments where you know something and

842
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 3: you don't question it. You don't go into that mental

843
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:14,280
Speaker 3: whirling of is this a good idea?

844
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 2: Is this not? That I just knew it? Right? So

845
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 2: when I have those moments, I always listen to them.

846
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:24,879
Speaker 2: I don't overthink them. I just know them. And so

847
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 2: that was the start of it. And you know, actually

848
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 2: I didn't know.

849
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 3: I didn't really have a clue of the scale of

850
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 3: challenge that I was thinking about doing. So, like you say,

851
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 3: four and three kilometers doesn't sound too bad as a distance,

852
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 3: but I think it's so over the course of the

853
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:49,240
Speaker 3: thirty seven days, we climbed the equivalent of Mount Everest

854
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 3: two and a half times. That's more than reality of

855
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 3: what I just did. Yeah, and obviously I'm not a trekker,

856
00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 3: I'm not a hiker. As you can hear, I spend

857
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 3: a lot of time I'm sitting down praying, right, So

858
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 3: it was a huge, a.

859
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 2: Huge physical and mental challenge and accomplishment. Yeah, and I'm

860
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 2: I'm recovering from my own great idea as we speak.

861
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: Right, amazing. Well, congratulations on that. How long ago did

862
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 1: you finish? It's like in the last week or so.

863
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I kind of lost track of the days. What

864
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 2: day is it? Thursday, Wednesday, Thursday, Thursday, right, Yeah, I

865
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 2: think we finished about ten days ago. Yeah. It was

866
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 2: very weird coming back from the forest. I have to

867
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:35,879
Speaker 2: say it was.

868
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 3: Even though Bhutan is a very unpopulated country.

869
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 2: It's not like I came back to Manhattan.

870
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:46,320
Speaker 3: But it was very strange coming back to the speed

871
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 3: and the confusion of city.

872
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 2: Life here in Bhutan. Afterwards.

873
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 1: Interesting, it's brilliant speaking about the speed of life. I

874
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 1: was going to ask you when you're talking about being

875
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:01,319
Speaker 1: on that bridge London a year and a half ago

876
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 1: where you had this kind of idea or revelation or

877
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 1: what's it like when you go back to London.

878
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 2: I mean it's okay.

879
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 3: I mean I don't spend a lot of time in London,

880
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 3: to be frank, I'm very rarely there.

881
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 2: It's just not how I want to live.

882
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:27,360
Speaker 3: But for the benefit of the charity and various other things,

883
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 3: if I need to go to London, I go to London.

884
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, amazing. What was the coming out of, you know,

885
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 1: corporate land and that life and that very kind of

886
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 1: typical existence of people grow up in England and Australia

887
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 1: and America. What was the hardest to let go of? Like,

888
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:53,359
Speaker 1: what did you struggle, if anything, to let go of

889
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 1: or embrace in becoming this whatever different version of you

890
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 1: or taking this different path. What was hard for you?

891
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:04,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think that first of all, I

892
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:11,879
Speaker 3: think that obviously, actually when I was in the corporate world, it.

893
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:12,720
Speaker 2: Was not that usual to be frank.

894
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 3: I mean I back in the nineties, I was often

895
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 3: the only woman in the room.

896
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 1: Wow.

897
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 2: And I think that I would say that.

898
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 3: I felt very lucky to have that chance, that career

899
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:31,839
Speaker 3: to be in like Hong Kong, New York. I mean,

900
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 3: I think so I don't want to kind of dismiss

901
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 3: it as a like a boring everyday life. It was

902
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,319
Speaker 3: amazing and I was I learned a lot from it.

903
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 3: I was very pleased to be part of it in

904
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:49,680
Speaker 3: a way. I think when you decide to be a monastic,

905
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 3: you know what, often the reason why monastics live in

906
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:55,720
Speaker 3: communities is because monastic life is quite lonely.

907
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 1: Yes.

908
00:51:57,600 --> 00:51:59,919
Speaker 3: If I could use a word that freaks everybody out,

909
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:05,240
Speaker 3: it's like the final h I don't know, the final

910
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 3: bogie man, the word lonely. Right, you have no companion,

911
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 3: you have no partner, your celibate, but you also have

912
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:15,479
Speaker 3: nobody to share your day with. Yes, And I think

913
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 3: that from a monastic point of view, there's something very

914
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 3: beautiful about, you know, a couple or a kind of

915
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 3: deep friendship where you can really say how you are,

916
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 3: share how you are, you know. And I think that

917
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:34,879
Speaker 3: the hardest thing about being a monastic is sometimes that's

918
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:35,919
Speaker 3: hard to get.

919
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:37,719
Speaker 1: And so.

920
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 3: I think that was an expectation I had to kind

921
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 3: of let go of. And you still have these very

922
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:51,800
Speaker 3: like deep conditionings about the way to be a human

923
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 3: is to find your partner and stay with the partner,

924
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 3: and you know whatever, and even you know, you imagine

925
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 3: you're going to be old by a fireplace with grandchildren

926
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 3: or whatever. Right, So I think that that conditioning is

927
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 3: very deep. And so I think letting go of that

928
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 3: idea of what you should find in life, what you

929
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 3: should hold onto in life, and what your well, the

930
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:22,719
Speaker 3: end of your life will look like very much all

931
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 3: bound around having a partner.

932
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 2: I think that was a big conditioning to let go

933
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 2: for me.

934
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well I've never been married, so I'm

935
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 1: somewhat monastic.

936
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, You've got potential, Craig, You've got potential. This

937
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:37,759
Speaker 3: just sounds good, sounds good.

938
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 2: But how do you find it? I mean, how do

939
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:43,080
Speaker 2: you find it? I'm sure that there's there's there's positives.

940
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 3: And negatives to every situation, and some people marriage you

941
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:47,240
Speaker 3: sound like hell on Earth to me, I'll be honest.

942
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 2: So, but I mean, how do you find that?

943
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 1: Yeah? So it's interesting because obviously when I was younger,

944
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 1: I had you know, girlfriends, partners, and but I never

945
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:02,360
Speaker 1: got married. And you know, like, I've never had alcohol,

946
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:04,440
Speaker 1: I've never had a beer. I've never been drunk. I've

947
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 1: never had a drug, I've never had a cigarette, I've

948
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:13,360
Speaker 1: never been high. Yeah. So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

949
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 1: So my life is very monastic in a way and

950
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 1: very very atypical. Like and I'm not saying better or worse,

951
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 1: it's just for an Australian bloke who is like me,

952
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:29,440
Speaker 1: like a blow key bloke, it's very unusual to the

953
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 1: point where people are like, what is like, what is

954
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 1: wrong with him? There's like something got to be wrong

955
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 1: with him, which there probably is, but I don't know

956
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 1: that that's well, they're definitely is, let's be honest, but

957
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:44,880
Speaker 1: I don't know that that is the issue. But for me,

958
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:48,320
Speaker 1: I do you know what is? I feel like I

959
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 1: shouldn't even say this to you, but I'm just going

960
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:57,719
Speaker 1: to be honest, right I think. So I set up

961
00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 1: the first personal training center in Australia. Do you know

962
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:03,759
Speaker 1: what personal trainer is yet? Right? Yeah? In a gym

963
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:06,279
Speaker 1: kind of thing, yeah yeah, and you'd work one on

964
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:08,760
Speaker 1: one with people. So I set up the first center,

965
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:11,440
Speaker 1: I wrote the first course, and I worked in gyms

966
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 1: from nineteen eighty two when I was eighteen, and I

967
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:17,439
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time, eventually working one on one

968
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:19,840
Speaker 1: with people late decades where it would be me and

969
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 1: another human being in the gym and you'd see them often,

970
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:27,200
Speaker 1: that person three times a week, and so you would

971
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 1: have a one on one pretty in depth, pretty kind

972
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 1: of you know, going deep. And because you're not a

973
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 1: friend per se, and you're not their family and you're

974
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:41,880
Speaker 1: people would confide in you. And I'm like, the stuff

975
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 1: that I get told is mind blowing. And I mean,

976
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:47,279
Speaker 1: you know, some things they would tell me that no

977
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:51,000
Speaker 1: one else in the world knew, and which is a

978
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:53,840
Speaker 1: privilege and an honor and you need to respect that.

979
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 1: But then the amount of people that would talk to

980
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 1: me about their relationships and of what they say would

981
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:06,280
Speaker 1: be negative. It kind of put me off. I'm like, wow,

982
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 1: this is I'm not in any hurry to get married.

983
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 1: I'm not in any and you know, I think also,

984
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 1: and of course I'm not anti marriage at all. I'm

985
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 1: also not anti having a beer. I'm not anti anti

986
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 1: cigarettes and anti drugs. But you know, if somebody wants

987
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 1: to have a bit of booze, or someone wants to

988
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:27,520
Speaker 1: get married or does want to get married, or gets

989
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:30,120
Speaker 1: married three times or whatever, I'm not judging that or

990
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:34,399
Speaker 1: evaluating that. But for me, it didn't hold a lot

991
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 1: of appeal. And you know, which is not say so

992
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 1: things are amazing and I'm the smartest guy in the world.

993
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:45,959
Speaker 1: Definitely not that. But for the most part, I still

994
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 1: feel loved and valued. I still have, you know, connection

995
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 1: with people. I ironically don't have lots of friends, Like

996
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 1: I know a lot of people a lot, but I

997
00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:01,800
Speaker 1: probably have five six seven ends in the world. Yeah

998
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 1: that I really know and trust. Yeah. So it's it's

999
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 1: funny and I you know a little bit like you

1000
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 1: you know, my mom is like my mum was doing

1001
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:16,080
Speaker 1: come on, where are the grandchildren? She was doing that

1002
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:18,640
Speaker 1: till I was about forty five and then just gave up,

1003
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 1: you know. So and you know, at no stage was

1004
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:26,480
Speaker 1: it really my plan to wake up one day and

1005
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 1: be sixty ish years old and whatever whatever I am Now,

1006
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 1: this wasn't you know, that's my life goal. So yeah,

1007
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:41,440
Speaker 1: it is interesting and also to just question, you know,

1008
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 1: like I actually got asked in an interview myself, why

1009
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:47,240
Speaker 1: are my anti marriage? And I said, well, I've never

1010
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:51,400
Speaker 1: ever said that, and I wouldn't say that. I think

1011
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:54,800
Speaker 1: for some people marriage is beautiful and amazing, I think,

1012
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 1: and I think for some people not just like I

1013
00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:01,720
Speaker 1: think for some people drinking milk is absolutely amazing, for

1014
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:04,040
Speaker 1: other people not so much. You know, it's not like

1015
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:06,479
Speaker 1: milk is good or bad, or marriage is good or bad,

1016
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:10,560
Speaker 1: or becoming a nun is what everyone should do or

1017
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:13,760
Speaker 1: not do, or you know what I'm saying. It's like, well, yeah,

1018
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:16,800
Speaker 1: we need to figure out what is going to work

1019
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:21,280
Speaker 1: for us individually, you know, I think, while hopefully bringing

1020
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 1: some value to people around us or some service in

1021
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 1: some way, maybe.

1022
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's about you know, hopefully being wise

1023
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:32,280
Speaker 3: enough to know, okay, what really brings out the best

1024
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:35,080
Speaker 3: in me. You know, I may like the idea of

1025
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:37,920
Speaker 3: having a boyfriend or whatever, but you know, if it

1026
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:42,120
Speaker 3: makes me anxious or clingy or you know whatever, then

1027
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 3: it's not really bringing out the best in me. And

1028
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:48,400
Speaker 3: I think, you know, I feel being a monastic does

1029
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 3: bring out the best in me. It doesn't mean that

1030
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:52,640
Speaker 3: I couldn't be a lot of other things, and I

1031
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 3: could have been a lot of other things, but I

1032
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:59,720
Speaker 3: think it brings out the best in me. And that's

1033
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:01,360
Speaker 3: what we want to do, is bring out the best

1034
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 3: in ourselves, right.

1035
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, we do Hey, it's been an hour. Can you

1036
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:07,440
Speaker 1: believe that already?

1037
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:12,160
Speaker 2: No, it's been very enjoyable.

1038
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:17,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much. Hate. So let's talk about

1039
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:20,720
Speaker 1: your book. Your book is called Set Free. Your charity.

1040
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:24,360
Speaker 1: Your charity is called opening your Heart to pretend tell

1041
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:27,560
Speaker 1: people about those like all the plugging and promoing.

1042
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:32,240
Speaker 6: That's really kind of weird. Thank you. You know that's

1043
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:35,680
Speaker 6: on Amazon. You can find it on Amazon. I guess

1044
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:37,320
Speaker 6: in Australia you have to order it. But you have

1045
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:39,560
Speaker 6: Amazon and stuff in Australia, right, I mean you must.

1046
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:43,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, we just got television too, fantastic, there you go.

1047
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 2: I just you know, just anyway, So, yeah, the.

1048
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:50,400
Speaker 1: Book is on I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm messing with you. Yes,

1049
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:51,200
Speaker 1: we have Amazon.

1050
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:54,880
Speaker 2: So it has a lot of five star reviews. I

1051
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 2: wrote it from my heart and.

1052
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 3: I think it's funny and serious and hopefully you'll laugh

1053
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:07,120
Speaker 3: and your cry. The charity is called Opening your Heart

1054
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 3: to Bhutan, because when we help others, that's what you do.

1055
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:13,600
Speaker 2: You open your own heart. That's what happens.

1056
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 3: And you know, there's a website and you can see

1057
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:21,200
Speaker 3: the campaign even for my massive trek across Butan.

1058
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:23,480
Speaker 2: The campaign is still there if people want to join in.

1059
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:29,840
Speaker 3: And there will be a documentary film about the walk

1060
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:33,520
Speaker 3: made in Bhutan here with the Bhutanese film crew, and

1061
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:36,240
Speaker 3: that should be out in a bad a year and

1062
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 3: that I hope is going to be really something else amazing.

1063
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:42,120
Speaker 1: Well, we'll get you back to talk about that. We'll

1064
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:45,400
Speaker 1: primo that as hey, we'll say goodbye fare But Emma,

1065
01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:48,440
Speaker 1: thank you so much. It's really nice to meet you.

1066
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:51,560
Speaker 1: You're a gift and I appreciate you taking the time.

1067
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:54,400
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you. Yeah, okay, hap to see you.

1068
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:58,440
Speaker 1: More and we're out boom, thank you.

1069
01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:01,440
Speaker 2: Okay to meet you.

1070
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:04,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, you too. You're great. I mean, I know you

1071
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:07,200
Speaker 1: probably don't want to comment, but you're great,