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Speaker 1: And wipper.

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Speaker 2: This is fascinating. So on the line we got Stephan Thomas.

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Speaker 2: He's founder and see of Coil Coil as a streaming

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Speaker 2: micro payment service for creators and publishers, but he's in

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Speaker 2: a bit of a bind at the moment. Steff, thanks

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Speaker 2: for joining us, buddy.

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Speaker 3: Of course, of course, thanks for having me on.

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Speaker 4: This is mate, this is fascinating.

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Speaker 1: We had to get you on. We saw this story

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Speaker 1: and we couldn't believe.

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Speaker 3: Not the word I would use.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I mean it's a bit easier where we sit

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Speaker 1: than where you sit. But I feel like this is

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Speaker 1: some sort of game show and right now you're in

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Speaker 1: the hot seat and there is a huge tally to

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Speaker 1: be one here. So can you explain the situation you

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Speaker 1: found yourself in?

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Speaker 3: Yes? Absolutely so.

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Speaker 5: It kind of all started back in twenty ten when

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Speaker 5: I first found out about bitcoin, and the reason it

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Speaker 5: interested me was, you know, I used to work as

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Speaker 5: a freelancer and so I kind of experienced our friction

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Speaker 5: with payments if you're moving internationally, if you're paying people

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Speaker 5: a bride, you know, it's always was a big pain

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Speaker 5: point for me, and so yeah, I thought it a

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Speaker 5: bitcoin could help with that.

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Speaker 3: So I got involved, and then.

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Speaker 5: The bitcoin community was looking for somebody to make an

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Speaker 5: animated video about bitcoin, just to explain it, something that

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Speaker 5: people could share. And a friend of mine was studying

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Speaker 5: motion graphics, which is basically like the you know, studying

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Speaker 5: to make animated videos prety much.

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Speaker 3: So we teamed up. We made the video.

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Speaker 5: We won a bounty of nine fifty two bitcoins. Wow,

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Speaker 5: I ended up I ended up spending two thousand just

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Speaker 5: to pay everyone else who.

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Speaker 3: Worked on the video.

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Speaker 5: Yep, and so I was left off with about seven

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Speaker 5: thousand and Yeah, a couple of months later, I was

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Speaker 5: trying to access the.

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Speaker 3: Wallet, and I realized that it wasn't working.

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Speaker 2: So okay, so you've got seven thousand bitcoin left for

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Speaker 2: any for the everyday punter out there.

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Speaker 4: How much is that worth right now? In US dollars?

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Speaker 3: It's over two hundred million dollars.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so it's about three hundred and thirty mel ossie dollars?

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Speaker 1: How many?

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Speaker 2: How many? How many goes at the password?

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Speaker 4: Do you get? Stefan?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: So, so, I mean it gets a little complicated when

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Speaker 5: you start talking about the technology. There's three copies, two

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Speaker 5: are probably lost, and then there's a third copy, which

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Speaker 5: might still be recoverable, and that third copy is on

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Speaker 5: a secure encrypted you speA key. It was actually a

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Speaker 5: U speaking developed originally with funding from the US Department

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Speaker 5: of Format Security.

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Speaker 3: It was reviewed by NSA. So it's like a too.

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Speaker 5: Secure you really secure your spee stic that's what you

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Speaker 5: can imagine. And so the way it works, it gives

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Speaker 5: you ten attempts to unlock it, and if you get

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Speaker 5: it wrong ten times, it destroys itself basically.

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Speaker 1: Basically, so when you write down, tell me if I'm

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Speaker 1: being too simple here or too basic. But when you

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Speaker 1: did you create the password or the code yourself? Or

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Speaker 1: was that something that was generated and given to you?

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Speaker 3: It was a I generated it, but it was a

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Speaker 3: random pass rudy.

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Speaker 1: So it wasn't quite you or anything.

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Speaker 5: It wasn't It wasn't pass where people have suggested, doesn't

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Speaker 5: tie one of my tins on.

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Speaker 1: That wasn't Tomo hotpants one, two three or anything.

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Speaker 3: You know, I could try that, but yeah, so do

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Speaker 3: you when you?

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Speaker 1: I mean, so, it's not something that you would remember

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Speaker 1: off the top of your hand if it was generated

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Speaker 1: by a computer. So you how the hell do you

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Speaker 1: start by trying to work out what the password is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, really you don't.

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Speaker 5: I think the best way to approach it at this

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Speaker 5: point is not to train any more passwords. I mean

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Speaker 5: the reason if that, Yeah, the reason I left two

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Speaker 5: attempts is because it's still a chance, like somehow I

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Speaker 5: find that piece of peace.

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Speaker 1: So you have two to go.

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Speaker 4: So I came right out of way up. Let me

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Speaker 4: get this right. Two to go.

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Speaker 2: But did you just say that you did definitely write

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Speaker 2: it down on a piece of paper somewhere.

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Speaker 5: Stefan, Yes, ten years ago while I was still living

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Speaker 5: in Switzerland.

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Speaker 1: So hang on a minute. You've had eight cracks, You've

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Speaker 1: only got ten two left, and your hope and answer

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Speaker 1: and access to three hundred and thirty million is in

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Speaker 1: the hope that you find a bit of paper.

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Speaker 3: That would be an easy way.

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Speaker 5: There's also a hard way, which is you know all

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Speaker 5: that security that they put in place, like the NSA reviewed.

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Speaker 3: If you could.

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Speaker 5: Crack all of that, you could potentially bypass that limitation.

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Speaker 5: You could do as many trays as you want, and

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Speaker 5: at that point you can do like a super comprom

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Speaker 5: with billions of tries per second.

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Speaker 2: So but without that piece of paper, I don't even

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Speaker 2: know where to start. I don't even know what the

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Speaker 2: first letter number symbol to put in. So so where

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Speaker 2: do you go? I mean, if you can get as

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Speaker 2: many attempts as you want. I know there are computers

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Speaker 2: that can crack passwords these days Steffan, and they just

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Speaker 2: go through every single possible combination.

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Speaker 4: But that would take so long to do.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, before you even get to a point, you have

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Speaker 5: to bypass that ten try limitation. The way that that's

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Speaker 5: implemented is there's a secure smart card, like kind of

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Speaker 5: what you find on your debit card or something like.

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Speaker 5: That's like a secure chip and you have to take that.

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Speaker 5: You have to take that to a laboratory. They have

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Speaker 5: to take it apart, sort of shave off layers of

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Speaker 5: the chip, just like atom, a couple of atoms, thick layers.

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Speaker 5: The chip has all sorts of countermeasures, like it's randomized,

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Speaker 5: so like the layout of the chip is randomized, there

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Speaker 5: are layers of random wires all over to distract you.

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Speaker 5: There's a UV sensor, so if there's any UV light

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Speaker 5: that deletes itself, there's any temperature fluctuation that deletes itself,

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Speaker 5: there's any voltage fluctuation that deletes itself.

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Speaker 3: It has really made it as hard as possible to it.

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Speaker 4: Do you know what it sounds like.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like the Gillett shaver with five blades, you know,

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Speaker 2: like if you get past the first blade, it's always

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Speaker 2: going to get the hair with the second blade.

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Speaker 4: If it bypasses that blade, then it goes to the

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Speaker 4: third blade.

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Speaker 2: There's always get past the hay can never win man Stefan.

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Speaker 1: I need to ask how many people have you approached

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Speaker 1: and said, you know what, I'll give you one hundred

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Speaker 1: million dollars if you can get me into this thing,

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Speaker 1: or I'll give you x amount of bitcoin if you

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Speaker 1: can get me into this thing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Who do you go to?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, Well there's there's this is like a very

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Speaker 5: specific and very specialized work that like it's mostly done

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Speaker 5: for research purposes.

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Speaker 3: So like there's a research lab.

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Speaker 5: There's research laboratories that do this just to kind of

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Speaker 5: you know, study the security these devices. Military does it,

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Speaker 5: intelligence does it right? And so some of those people

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Speaker 5: that have access to those labs have reached out in

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Speaker 5: response to the story, so like I actually have a

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Speaker 5: chance to like get in touch with the right experts now, yes,

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Speaker 5: but even then, it's a very expensive thing. It's like

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Speaker 5: you could potentially cost millions and then you don't have

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Speaker 5: a guarantee that all work, and so if it doesn't.

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Speaker 1: Work, it kind of you cannot do a money up frontal.

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Speaker 2: It's just can we go back and I know it's

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Speaker 2: ten years, but let's go back to Switzerland.

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Speaker 4: Were you in a rental way?

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Speaker 1: We're helping find it?

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Speaker 2: No, no, but this is whenever you lose something, you

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Speaker 2: read Tracy Steps And I know it's a long time,

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Speaker 2: but are you confident was in a certain room or

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Speaker 2: do you think someone picked it up?

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Speaker 5: Well, I was living in a studio apartment, so I'm

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Speaker 5: confident about the room.

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Speaker 4: Yes, so it's not very big at all.

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Speaker 1: But were you reading a book at the time you

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Speaker 1: use it as a bookmark?

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Speaker 3: Chances are no.

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Speaker 5: I was spending us on time on the computer coding,

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Speaker 5: so correct. Do you remember the keyboard?

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Speaker 1: Was there a strong wind that you remember? You had

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Speaker 1: your little Swiss army and if you're eating some tobolarone

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Speaker 1: and some cheese, a strong wind came through and blow

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Speaker 1: it out the window.

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Speaker 5: Well, you know, so people have reached out and they've

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Speaker 5: suggested all kinds of ideas from like, I think one

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Speaker 5: of the most common is hypnosis, and like, yes, you know,

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Speaker 5: I might go and try out honestly because it's you know,

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Speaker 5: I haven't got anything to lose really.

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Speaker 1: Because the hardest part too, Stephan is sitting here right

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Speaker 1: now knowing that that sits there, three hundred and thirty

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Speaker 1: millions dollars and bitcoin is continuing to go up. And

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Speaker 1: you know what happened last time, there was a crash

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Speaker 1: like nothing you've ever seen, So that would be added

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Speaker 1: pressure not knowing whether it was going to plummet.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's always going to go up at some stage, though,

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Speaker 4: wasn't it.

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Speaker 1: Again? No one predicted right now these heights, did they, Stefan?

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Speaker 3: I mean, certainly I did.

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Speaker 5: I remember predicting one hundred dollars by twenty twenty.

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Speaker 3: That was my very ambitious bitcoin price prediction. So I

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Speaker 3: definitely don't see this coming.

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Speaker 2: Steffan, Have you sat down with your family? You seem

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Speaker 2: like a guy though.

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Speaker 4: Is money everything to you? Or could you?

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Speaker 2: I mean, if this doesn't work you fail on the

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Speaker 2: last two attempts, could are you the type of blake

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Speaker 2: that could move on live your life and still lead

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Speaker 2: a happy life.

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Speaker 5: This is a great question, because when it first happened, I,

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Speaker 5: you know, my world fell apart, like I didn't. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: I thought I was I thought my life was over. Basically,

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Speaker 5: not so much because like the money was a lot

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Speaker 5: of money for me. It was one hundred and forty

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Speaker 5: thousand dollars. At the time, I was in debt for

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Speaker 5: my previous startup, so I could have really really used

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Speaker 5: that money. But you know, that didn't bother me so much.

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Speaker 5: What bothered me was the sort of lack of like

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Speaker 5: a lost my self worth basically because it's like, what

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Speaker 5: kind of idiot, like, especially if I'm a developer, I

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Speaker 5: should really know how to protect data. You know, it's

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Speaker 5: kind of mistakesould happened to be And so that was pretty.

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Speaker 3: Tough to wrap my head around.

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Speaker 5: But then I eventually made sort of a decision that

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Speaker 5: I came my life goes on, like there's lots of

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Speaker 5: lots to look forward to, there's all kinds of adventures

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Speaker 5: I can still have, And so went back to work

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Speaker 5: and most of my career happened after that, Like I

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Speaker 5: did really well going to Silicon Valley working at Starducks

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Speaker 5: year started my own company in twenty eighteen, and so

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Speaker 5: now when I look at that wallet, it's not I'm

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Speaker 5: not thinking about, you know, the money I've lost, but

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Speaker 5: I'm thinking about my career and the life that I've

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Speaker 5: built up. And you know I'm actually happy.

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Speaker 1: Well what I do. We've been sitting here, but you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't think I could handle it, is what I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: I know what Stuffen's describing is he's gone through a

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Speaker 1: process to where he's at.

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Speaker 3: But see this is it's amazing. It's amazing what ten

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Speaker 3: years can do. You know, like ten years. Yeah, it

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Speaker 3: works hard at the beginning, but it gets easier.

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Speaker 2: But see, no, no, this is the thing. And I've

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Speaker 2: told you I'm reading this book how much is enough?

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Speaker 2: It's about happiness at the moment's stiff and this is

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Speaker 2: the thing, Whip. But you would be shattered because you

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Speaker 2: think two hundred million dollars would change your lives and

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Speaker 2: the size of the boat. I bet you, I bet

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Speaker 2: you wouldn't be happy in five years time.

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Speaker 4: Matete all up the wall, Stephan. There's other things.

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Speaker 2: There's family, your good friends fits in and Whippy here

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Speaker 2: that you would share the money with if you had.

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Speaker 1: You must be able to find somebody right and I

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Speaker 1: know you've said that that would cost millions. You must

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Speaker 1: be able to find somebody that only gets paid if

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Speaker 1: they crack the code, like some sort of lawyers, you know,

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Speaker 1: they have that offering, no win, no pay. There must

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Speaker 1: be a company out there with the technology to make

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Speaker 1: this happen.

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Speaker 5: I've had I've had a I won't say the name,

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Speaker 5: but I've had a major TV network offered to pay

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Speaker 5: for the recovery in exchange for like the document documentary rates.

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Speaker 3: So like there's some ideas, you know.

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Speaker 1: Bill Gates all over this stuff.

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Speaker 2: Wow, know someone do you know, Like, have you even

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Speaker 2: and I know this is like you've got the darker

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Speaker 2: weave in that as well? Have you been approached by

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Speaker 2: any of the top hackers in the world.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so this is a pretty specialized field, so as

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Speaker 5: a result, it's not very big. And yeah, some of

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Speaker 5: the some of the names in that field that I

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Speaker 5: recognize from from doing research on it, like people who

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Speaker 5: have published research in this area have reached out. So

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Speaker 5: I'm still in the process of kind of verifying that

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Speaker 5: they're for real, that they're not just pretending.

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Speaker 1: Russians.

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Speaker 2: Russians the Russians And can I ask you have you

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Speaker 2: done research, I would say that you're one of numerous

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Speaker 2: people that have the same problem. How much money is

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Speaker 2: there out there in bitcoin where people can't access?

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Speaker 4: Have you researched that?

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Speaker 3: It's a really good point.

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Speaker 5: So so, as part of the New York Times story

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Speaker 5: that came out that kind of broke the story.

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Speaker 3: They had a number.

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Speaker 5: I think it came from like a bitcoin sort of

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Speaker 5: analysis company. It's it's in a New Times article, and

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Speaker 5: basically the number was one hundred billion dollars on these.

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Speaker 3: Lost, lost and frozen wallets. So there must be millions

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Speaker 3: of people out there in this situation.

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Speaker 1: Stephan, I got the number one question for you. You

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Speaker 1: crack the code right here, right now. Would you sell it.

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Speaker 3: If I if I had access to the wallet?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Would you sell the bitcoin now? Or do you believe

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Speaker 1: that you'd be selling too early?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Good, that's a tough You.

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Speaker 1: Got three and thirty dollars smell on the table. What

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Speaker 1: are you doing? Wouldn't you take a hundred MILLI out?

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Speaker 1: He might.

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Speaker 5: I'm a I'm a boring person, so I usually had

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Speaker 5: my bet, so I would have pro sell a percentage.

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Speaker 4: Yeah you would as well? Hold Yeah, no, you wouldn't till.

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Speaker 1: It hits that hundred mark. Remember this double.

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Speaker 2: Down, Stephan, I reckon, And look, we're so fascinated in

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Speaker 2: this story. I reckon, you should sell your rights to

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Speaker 2: this to a documentary, to a network, because I would

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Speaker 2: watch that that fascinated. Is a fascinating to see the

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Speaker 2: final two attempts. But see the other thing that I

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Speaker 2: scares me about hackers as well. If hackers can get

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Speaker 2: in your account, dudesers can take out of the account

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 1: Stephan, Can we keep talking, mate? You need to keep

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Speaker 1: us up to speed with this, Okay, we want updates

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Speaker 1: on how you go.

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Speaker 3: Well do that. With your help, it should be easy

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Speaker 3: to recovery.

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Speaker 1: Not a problem, mate, We're always here.

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Speaker 4: Good luck, Stefan, thank you.

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Speaker 3: Take care of

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Speaker 1: Fits and whipp