WEBVTT - How exactly do we turn the temperature down? 

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<v Speaker 1>From The Australian, here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Wednesday, October 21, 2026. Turn the temperature down. That's

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<v Speaker 1>the refrain from Anthony Albanese as independent MP Helen Haynes

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<v Speaker 1>battles to survive injuries sustained in a shocking vehicle attack.

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<v Speaker 1>But what does that actually mean? What did Haynes' alleged

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<v Speaker 1>attacker believe in? Can we draw reason and meaning from

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<v Speaker 1>online rants or a grab bag of grievances? And even

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<v Speaker 1>if we can, how does it help us? And when

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<v Speaker 1>the target of political violence is a mild-mannered grandma from

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<v Speaker 1>the country, how do we find optimism? Today, political editor

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<v Speaker 1>Jeff Chambers joins us to think through all these big ideas.

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<v Speaker 1>Breaking news from Wangaratta. Federal Independent MP Helen Haynes has

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<v Speaker 1>been struck by a car outside of her electorate office.

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<v Speaker 1>A horrific attack that's left much-loved Independent MP Helen Haynes

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<v Speaker 1>fighting for life. Multiple sources have now confirmed that Helen

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<v Speaker 1>Haynes has had a leg amputated in hospital.

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<v Speaker 2>Helen Haynes remains in a critical condition, having undergone surgery

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<v Speaker 2>and losing her leg.

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<v Speaker 1>Geoff Chambers is the Australian's political editor. Geoff, tell me

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<v Speaker 1>about Helen Haynes. Had you had much to do with her?

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<v Speaker 2>Look, Helen Haynes was one of the original Climate 200

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<v Speaker 2>independent MPs. And Indi had a very rich history with

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<v Speaker 2>independence with Cathy McGowan in regional Victoria. And Helen, hands down,

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<v Speaker 2>is one of the loveliest ladies here. One of the

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<v Speaker 2>most non-offensive, has a nursing background. and has just thoroughly

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<v Speaker 2>loved both in this building and at a regional level.

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<v Speaker 2>And we've seen that with her consistent performances in Indi,

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<v Speaker 2>which at one point in time was a Liberal seat.

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<v Speaker 2>So very hardworking MP, and everyone was just in absolute

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<v Speaker 2>shock at what happened on Monday afternoon at the front

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<v Speaker 2>of her electorate office in Wangaratta. It's, I guess, really

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<v Speaker 2>brought home what a lot of them had been fearing.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of them received threats via different channels, but

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<v Speaker 2>I think a lot of them probably would have thought

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<v Speaker 2>out there in a regional part of the country, where

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<v Speaker 2>in fact, in Helen's electorate is where Desi Freeman resided.

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<v Speaker 2>And we talk about cookers and anti-authoritarian types living these

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<v Speaker 2>types of unpredictable lives by themselves, loners. In fact, they

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<v Speaker 2>could be more at risk than others.

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<v Speaker 1>She seems like Australia's Nana, this lovely, gentle lady, grew

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<v Speaker 1>up on a dairy farm, running a property with her husband, Philip,

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<v Speaker 1>celebrating her 40th wedding anniversary, mum of three, but also

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<v Speaker 1>like a really eminent senior nursing academic, very experienced nurse,

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<v Speaker 1>has a PhD in medical science. If someone like Helen

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<v Speaker 1>Haynes can be the target of political violence, or if

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<v Speaker 1>she is the ultimate target of political violence, it's really

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<v Speaker 1>hard to feel optimistic that things are getting better in

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<v Speaker 1>Australia or that we have a kind of civil discourse,

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<v Speaker 1>isn't it?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, absolutely. And in a way, she's like the perfect

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<v Speaker 2>type of MP. She's had a life, she's had a

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<v Speaker 2>full career, and then she's giving back to give that

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<v Speaker 2>public service. And as much as there are security measures

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<v Speaker 2>that are in place, they're extra careful, particularly post-pandemic, post-voice referendum,

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<v Speaker 2>post all the social media, conspiracy, propaganda, all that kind

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<v Speaker 2>of information, people feeling less trust in their politicians. It's

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<v Speaker 2>a combination of all of these things where the targeting

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<v Speaker 2>of Helen Haynes really shows that it doesn't matter if

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<v Speaker 2>you're a federal MP, doesn't matter what party you're from,

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't matter what gender you are. You could be a

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<v Speaker 2>state MP or a local councillor. You could be a judge.

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<v Speaker 2>You could be a family member of a public official. Unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 2>there are a lot of threats flying around. A lot

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<v Speaker 2>of those threats don't necessarily come to physical violence. But

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<v Speaker 2>if anyone has been reading the tea leaves of what

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<v Speaker 2>the ASIO and AFP chiefs have been saying in recent years,

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<v Speaker 2>it was really clear that at some point, Australia was

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<v Speaker 2>not immune to political assassinations, which this country has seen,

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<v Speaker 2>but very, very rarely. We've seen it around the world,

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<v Speaker 2>but it could come in many different forms. And unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 2>we saw the scenes that we saw on Monday.

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<v Speaker 1>Brendan Nugent, the 43-year-old local man who is alleged to

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<v Speaker 1>have been her attacker, the person who drove into her

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<v Speaker 1>multiple times in his four-wheel drive, leaving her pinned and

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<v Speaker 1>rescuers having to help her out so that she could

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<v Speaker 1>be flown to hospital. When you look at his social

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<v Speaker 1>media feed, it's kind of a grab bag of grievances.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, he's talking about logging. He's talking about Gaza.

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<v Speaker 1>He's having a crack at Penny Wong. During the bushfire time,

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<v Speaker 1>he's having a go at Mark Butler. And Joel Fitzgibbon,

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<v Speaker 1>Labor MPs, even though they weren't in government, about why

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<v Speaker 1>they weren't doing more about climate change. He's also complaining

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<v Speaker 1>that he can't get onto the NDIS or that he

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't have secure housing despite having a disability. I know

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<v Speaker 1>he's being already characterised as a far lefty. And of course,

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<v Speaker 1>he has a right to defend any charges that are

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<v Speaker 1>going to be laid and he's not being convicted of anything.

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<v Speaker 1>But I find that an interesting characterisation. It seems like

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<v Speaker 1>it's more than just being a lefty that is evident

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<v Speaker 1>there in his social media presence at least. What do

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<v Speaker 1>you think?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so what the security guys call it is mixed

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<v Speaker 2>ideologies and this is making it really difficult. So if

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<v Speaker 2>you're an ASIO, AFP or a state police force, you're

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<v Speaker 2>getting a deluge of different people making different threats, making

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<v Speaker 2>different claims and you're trying to work out methodically how

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<v Speaker 2>break down pseudonyms as well. But you're trying to figure

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<v Speaker 2>out who actually poses a threat and what is their ideology?

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<v Speaker 2>Because on this bloke's Twitter account, X account, there is,

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<v Speaker 2>as you say, varying opinions on things. Some might say

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<v Speaker 2>they're extreme, but others might say this bloke looks like

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<v Speaker 2>he's pretty engaged on some of these issues and has

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<v Speaker 2>his positions on things. I did see another one there

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<v Speaker 2>around satanic cults and police officers. So is this guy anti-authoritarian?

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<v Speaker 2>Does he have a personal gripe? Quite often, whether you're

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<v Speaker 2>going through a family law issue or an NDIS thing,

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<v Speaker 2>you then fixate on your local federal MP and you

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<v Speaker 2>take out whatever problems you might have with them. They're

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<v Speaker 2>still going through his profile. They're still gathering evidence. The

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<v Speaker 2>information is that he was potentially under heavy influence. So

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<v Speaker 2>I suspect they're going to have to wait to complete

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<v Speaker 2>those interviews with this person. But they'd be forming a

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<v Speaker 2>pretty good opinion now from what they're collecting through his vehicle,

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<v Speaker 2>at his house, on his phone. in terms of who

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<v Speaker 2>he is. But I think this goes to the point

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<v Speaker 2>of how challenging it is, because you just don't really

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<v Speaker 2>know who are they targeting and what's influencing them and

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<v Speaker 2>motivating them.

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<v Speaker 1>Anthony Albanese keeps saying, take the temperature down. He's been

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<v Speaker 1>saying it for a very long time now.

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<v Speaker 2>Call for the temperature to be turned down when it

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<v Speaker 2>comes to political discourse.

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<v Speaker 1>I find it really annoying, Geoff, to hear that. And

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know whether it's just that it feels a

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<v Speaker 1>bit gully, but feels like something that the principal might

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<v Speaker 1>say to the year seven class after they've been naughty

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<v Speaker 1>at lunchtime, or that it seems to apply to everything

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<v Speaker 1>from like, don't shoot Jewish people with a semi-automatic weapon

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<v Speaker 1>to don't run Helen Haynes over. Like, you know, what

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<v Speaker 1>is he actually talking about? Is this a code for something?

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<v Speaker 1>Is he actually talking about someone in particular?

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<v Speaker 2>I think the prime minister needs to add some detail

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<v Speaker 2>on what are very vague statements. And you're absolutely right.

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<v Speaker 2>Every time we get a major incident in this country,

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<v Speaker 2>he brings us back to this catchphrase around turning down

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<v Speaker 2>the temperature, lowering the discourse. And he name checks the

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<v Speaker 2>media on that. Some would argue that himself and his

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<v Speaker 2>own government, going back to the days of the Morrison government,

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<v Speaker 2>that they were themselves launching some very serious vitriol and rhetoric,

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<v Speaker 2>which really drove divisions across society. Some would say that

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<v Speaker 2>the voice referendum drove divisions in society. So we've spoken

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<v Speaker 2>with several former leaders who including Bob Carr, Jeff Kennett,

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<v Speaker 2>and John Howard, they've all got varying opinions around it,

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<v Speaker 2>but ultimately they don't feel like the public political debate

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<v Speaker 2>is any hotter than when they were in power. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>the caveat on that, and John Howard also says it's not,

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<v Speaker 2>you can't necessarily compare generational, you know, how hot different

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<v Speaker 2>generations were in terms of politics. The difference with this

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<v Speaker 2>is the amplification of social media. Hmm. And I think

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<v Speaker 2>it's important as we move forward, because unfortunately, we may

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<v Speaker 2>well see some more serious incidents. And at the end

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<v Speaker 2>of the day, the most serious caseload that ASIO and

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<v Speaker 2>the AFP watch remains Sunni Islamic extremists. They are the

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<v Speaker 2>most serious. And then you've got these left-wing extremists that

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<v Speaker 2>Mike Burgess has specifically warned about alongside right-wing, alongside anti-authoritarian.

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<v Speaker 2>And then we talk about lone wolf attacks. So I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's important that we don't simplify this down. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think there are some people out there who are

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<v Speaker 2>already frustrated with politicians and the major parties. We're seeing

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<v Speaker 2>this in the polls, who would say, well, you're going

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<v Speaker 2>after social media. Are you going after free speech? And

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<v Speaker 2>I think the threshold on that is a criminal threshold,

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<v Speaker 2>which is actually a very high threshold. I think that

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<v Speaker 2>should be looked at. But if someone's inciting violence or

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<v Speaker 2>they break the law, I think that works to actively

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<v Speaker 2>undermine democracy. And undermine free speech. So there are thresholds,

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<v Speaker 2>I think.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so it's almost like if you put your toe

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<v Speaker 1>in the water a little bit and maybe threaten to

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<v Speaker 1>rape an MP or say, oh, you should be dead

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<v Speaker 1>or you should kill yourself on social media and then

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<v Speaker 1>nothing happens to you, the police don't come knocking at

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<v Speaker 1>your door and take you away. And of course, in Australia,

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<v Speaker 1>that is not happening. Then maybe you kind of think

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<v Speaker 1>that that's okay and the bar gets raised. Do you

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<v Speaker 1>think that that is what's going on? There's a role

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<v Speaker 1>here for kind of the social media platforms to actually

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<v Speaker 1>be suppressing that kind of language?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's so challenging because it's so loud and fierce.

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<v Speaker 2>So much of these platforms increasingly rely on that very

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<v Speaker 2>schism and that split on the right and the left.

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<v Speaker 2>It's that opinion and that exchanging of ideas. The thought

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<v Speaker 2>that social media is purely a sharing of family photos

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<v Speaker 2>and positive affirmations is just not true. But how far

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<v Speaker 2>can you go to stop it? We've seen some other

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<v Speaker 2>countries try. We've seen people out there rallying against it.

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<v Speaker 2>This government is trying to strike a balance, but it's

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<v Speaker 2>this constant ambiguity and vagueness around what is this hotter temperature?

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<v Speaker 2>And do politicians also, certainly not Helen Haynes, who was

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<v Speaker 2>a big champion of integrity and recently actually called out

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<v Speaker 2>the prime minister over the membership of that golf club.

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<v Speaker 2>But for Anthony Albanese, he really has to, I think,

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<v Speaker 2>explain what he means by that. If it is social media,

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<v Speaker 2>talk about what you're going to do about it. And

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<v Speaker 2>it is difficult because so many people are doing some

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<v Speaker 2>very grotesque things and a lot of female politicians parliamentarians

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<v Speaker 2>and public officials are affected more so. But once they

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<v Speaker 2>go through the processes of apprehending these people, quite often

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<v Speaker 2>it's a charge and quite often it's a fine. And

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<v Speaker 2>then it's not like they're spending much time in jail. So,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, certainly we don't want to see what we've

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<v Speaker 2>seen in the UK, US, in Japan and other Western countries. But,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, unfortunately, you know, it is a serious issue

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<v Speaker 2>and we have to address it.

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<v Speaker 1>You and I have both covered politics and been in

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<v Speaker 1>journalism for a really long time, Jeff, not to age you. But,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, Bob Carr is right, you know, and he

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<v Speaker 1>comes from the bear pit of New South Wales politics

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<v Speaker 1>where it was absolutely vicious in the 1990s. John Howard,

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<v Speaker 1>very much the same. But if you look at where

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<v Speaker 1>the heat is now in politics, it's on the left

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<v Speaker 1>and the right. So the Greens are accusing each other

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<v Speaker 1>of being sex pests and they're launching bullying claims against

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<v Speaker 1>one another. And then on the right, Pauline Hanson is

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<v Speaker 1>calling Andrew Hastie a traitor. And she's making jokes in

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<v Speaker 1>a cartoon about Jackie Lambie's vagina. If you think it's

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<v Speaker 1>a laughable matter about women having problems with their reproductive system,

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<v Speaker 1>then you be my guest and you stand by her.

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<v Speaker 2>But seriously, enough is enough. Have you heard, Claire, that

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<v Speaker 2>she's taking that down?

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>She's responded for the first time on a cartoon. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think that is because she is understanding that they

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<v Speaker 2>are becoming mainstream. And does she want to put off

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<v Speaker 2>female voters? But It is very heated and a very

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<v Speaker 2>contested space.

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<v Speaker 1>But Anthony Albanese won't say that. He won't say, when

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<v Speaker 1>I say take the temperature down, I'm talking about all

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<v Speaker 1>you misogynists on X and all you kind of crazies,

0:12:56.170 --> 0:12:59.380
<v Speaker 1>you know, you keffiyeh-wearing crazies. And he won't say, and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm also talking about you, Pauline and co. So why not?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's interesting. He had a personal experience through the

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<v Speaker 2>pro-Palestine push. He's obviously the member for Grayner, a very green,

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<v Speaker 2>progressive area of Sydney area. And his electorate office was

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<v Speaker 2>targeted incessantly. He was targeted incessantly. His staff were to

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<v Speaker 2>the point where he had to move offices to provide

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<v Speaker 2>a more secure space. So he understands very personally as

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<v Speaker 2>the prime minister with a security detail who faces a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of threats probably on a daily basis. He understands

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<v Speaker 2>what that threat is. And he has been in this

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<v Speaker 2>place for a long time. I think as the leader

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<v Speaker 2>of this country, he needs to explain things and not

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<v Speaker 2>be scared about any political fallout. Because I think that

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<v Speaker 2>punters are just desperate for honesty from our politicians.

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<v Speaker 1>Geoff Chambers, thank you very much. Thanks, Claire. Geoff Chambers

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<v Speaker 1>is The Australian's political editor. This story is moving fast

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<v Speaker 1>and you can catch the latest right now at theaustralian.com.au.